How to Turn Disengagement Around with the Power of Humour

What if I told you the biggest threat to your business isn't a shiny new competitor or even the next tech disruption? Nope, it's much sneakier than that. It's happening right under your nose. Meet your silent profit killer: disengagement. Employees are clocking in, but let's be honest, they're not really showing up. Productivity is tanking. Turnover is skyrocketing and quiet quitting Oh, it's not so quiet anymore, is it? Gallup's new term for this is the Great Detachment. And here's the kicker. Most businesses don't just have this problem. They're unknowingly making it worse. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast That challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, Customer Experience Expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I'm so glad you're here for this show today. My guest for this episode is connection expert Beth Sherman. And today, we are going to be digging into what really is driving this detachment and how you can flip the script to bring connection back into your workplace. My one ask is that if you know anybody who could use this information, please make sure that you share a link to the episode because knowledge is power, but only if you share it. And you can do somebody a really big favor When you know that they're struggling with a particular issue in their business and you have a resource that you can share with them. So, go ahead and make that happen. Here's a stat that will really make you do a double take. Only about 1 in 3 of your employees are actually engaged at work. Based on the recent Gallup findings, disengaged workers are feeling 4 negative emotions each And every day.

Every day.

And those emotions are stress, worry, sadness, and anger.

Every day.

That's not just a bad day at the office. That's a full-blown crisis costing businesses billions in lost productivity, labor turnover, and burnout. But disengagement doesn't always look like someone scrolling on TikTok during a meeting. Sometimes, it shows up in quiet ways like things like Missed deadlines, low morale, and that eerie feeling that people are physically present but mentally checked out. Does that sound familiar? Well, that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, what is disengagement really costing your organization? How much time, talent, and energy is slipping through the cracks while your team struggles to feel connected and motivated? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. Why don't you go ahead and drop your comments and questions in the comments here? Because if any of this hits close to home, today's episode is going to flip the way you think about workplace connection. And we're going to uncover what you can do about it. I am so pleased that our guest today is someone who truly understands the power of connection. Beth Sherman is a 7-time Emmy Award-winning comedy writer, who's crafted jokes for some of the biggest stages in entertainment including The Late Show with David Letterman, The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, Ellen, and even the Academy Awards. But Beth isn't just about punchlines and laughter. She's on a mission to help businesses and leaders harness the transformative power of humor to build stronger teams, foster meaningful connections, and tackle the workplace challenges that we all face. Whether she's writing for top-tier shows, performing at comedy clubs, or even entertaining troops overseas, Beth brings a unique perspective on how humor can create real lasting impact. Beth, welcome to the show. I am so tickled you're here today.

It's my pleasure to be here. And I hope I have your consent for the tickling.

You do indeed.

Okay, good.

Before we get too deep into today's topic, could you maybe tell us a little bit about who your clients are, how you serve them, and what the end results are?

Well, so I work— I kind of have 2 categories, but they actually all are probably under the same umbrella. I work a lot with leadership, and I work with leadership sort of in 2 ways. One, directly to help them add humor to the workplace. But adding humor isn't just about— it's not about cracking jokes. I'm not trying to make more comedians. Good Lord, we don't need more. It's about emotional connection and what humor is, what laughter and smiles are, it's emotional connection. And I show people how to do that at work in an appropriate way because that's just— it's such a fast track to people feeling included and the sorts of things that make them, well, plug in.

Yeah.

So I do it in that context. And I also help them as speakers and communicators. I help them engage an audience because you can have the best message in the world, but if people don't want to listen to you, Or you're not interesting to listen to in some way, shape, or form, it's— you're kind of wasting everyone's time.

Yeah. It's so interesting how we kind of downplay. Like everybody thinks that they're really good communicators because I sent out a memo or I had a 3-hour staff meeting or whatever. But there's so much, so much in the whole phrase communication that it is actually a skill that needs to be built. It's not something we're inherently born with.

No, no. I mean, that works out well for me, but yeah, it's, it's, but yeah, but people, the same way people are not taught to lead, I mean, they're not, they don't inherently know how to lead, uh, management, leadership, people take courses on those things.

Mm-hmm.

And effective communication is something that people, there's an instinct, but it can be honed, it can be made better. And again, it's not trying to make comedians. It's not trying to make people be the funniest guy in the office. It's about finding commonality with people. It's about making that emotional connection that lets people know that you have their interests at heart, that you have a stake in them, that they are seen and heard. Because that's what humor does.

Yeah.

That's how humor does emotional connection. I mean, separate from work, People use humor for emotional connection all the time in their personal lives.

So why do you think so many workplaces now are struggling with employee disengagement? And even like, I literally came across Gallup's new definition calling it the Great Detachment this morning. I was actually going through and I saw a new study that they did for Q3 2024, and they call this thing the Great— they're calling it the Great Detachment, which is people are no longer quitting because the Labor market out there is getting scarcer because unemployment's at an all-time low, but they're coming to work and they're not engaging, they're not connecting. What's going on?

Well, look at all the competition people have for their— there is for their attention. I mean, you've got TikTok and you've just got everything and all of these short-form entertainment outlets that are really good and they're really entertaining. So, if you want to get people's attention, I think you have to take some of the lessons from what works and what is keeping people's attention. And some of that is just as simple as be brief.

Be brief. Yes. I was just going to say something about this.

Take a deep breath once in a while.

Yeah. About the— I mean, everything is short-form content, right? And, and, but yet the corporations still have that No, we sent out that 32-page memo yesterday. You didn't read it? It's a very sad, sad story.

It's human nature. It is. It is. And it's not a matter of trying to sort of— it's not a matter of trying to make things, everything into dessert and make everything super fun. Business is business. But humor is seasoning.

Yes.

And I always describe it as seasoning because if you think of it like salt, not everything needs a lot, but everything needs a little. If you think of real life, even the most bitter moments and the most difficult moments, there is always a little humor in it. I mean, there's always a little— because it's what we do as humans. That's resilience. It's a way of reframing something into— it's a way of taking control of something if you can laugh at it or with it or find the humor around it. So, I think using that seasoning at work to make something that is potentially dry or uncomfortable or awkward or just Dense. Being able, having the ability to season it a little bit helps people connect to it a little bit better.

And so, you know, we have a nasty example of humor going terribly, terribly bad in The Office with Michael Scott trying his best to be light. And so, you know, when you talk to some leaders about bringing humor into the workplace, I know that they're looking and saying, well, no, I don't want to be that guy.

And I would agree, please don't. But like I said, I'm not trying to make bad comedians. I'm trying to make good leaders. So, again, it's not about getting laughs so much as it's about making emotional connection.

I love that.

And finding commonality, letting people know it's all the things— humor is a great tool for saying things between the lines. And when you're looking for for humor in a situation and sort of zooming out and trying to find the humor in a situation. And again, when I use the word humor, it's something that makes people laugh or just smile. If you zoom out, it's what you're looking for really, and what comedians do, you're looking for the truth of the situation because truth is funny. That's what's funny. You do not need jokes. You don't need dad jokes or puns. I mean, they're nice, but just truth is funny. And the 2 places where comedians look for funny truth are self-awareness and specificity. Self-awareness is simply acknowledging whatever your audience or the other person might be noticing or thinking. And that's something that you can do with— and again, with humor, you can do things between the lines. So sometimes what someone might be noticing or thinking is, that didn't go well. You can use comedy techniques or understatement It's simply sort of acknowledging that elephant in the room to remove it as a potential distraction or a potential obstacle for— to connection. So truth is funny. Find that. You don't have to write a joke. Self-awareness. And then specificity. Specificity is simply, if truth is funny, then the details of that truth are hilarious. And there's a great quote from James Joyce. Author of Ulysses, you know, noted funnyman, James Joyce. But he talked about how in the particular lies the universal. So when you're looking for humor to make that connection, the more personal something is to you or specific something is to you, generally the more relatable it is to other people. We watch comedians, watch any Netflix special, they're telling us the particulars of their life. And we're on the floor, and, and every time they cut back to the audience, there's someone looking at someone else going, you do that. Yeah, you do that.

So it's about finger-pointing then.

Yes, exactly. That was the message I was trying to go. Yes, mission accomplished. Thank you, Marc.

But it's the shared human dynamic as well, right? Because to your point, we all feel it at some point. We all— and the stuff that I think is the most, the funniest is really the stuff that people aren't saying, but then we have the, the ability to turn around and To your point, point out the elephant in the room. Everybody is thinking it, right? And, and because everybody's thinking it, it becomes a shared experience.

Yeah, which is commonality in team building. I mean, the thing about Michael Scott is that, as self-awareness is funny, so is a lack of self-awareness.

Yeah.

So Michael Scott did not have any self-awareness, and that's what made things awkward.

Yes. And but then the lack of self-awareness also creates is some of the areas where you create a toxic work environment because of lack of self-awareness. It's not really something that in a lot of businesses, it's not something that triggers a lot of laughs but a lot of frustration. And kind of, I like to call it, it used to be the water cooler talk. I think now it's the Keurig machine talk.

Yes, it's just a couple of people yakking over capsules. Yeah. The way I find it helpful to frame humor, especially at work, probably anywhere, but particularly workplace environments, to avoid things that are, well, just wrong or hurtful, and I really believe this, is that humor is a love language. If you frame humor as a way to lift people up, it's a lot harder to go wrong. It's a love language. It's a way to say things that we couldn't or wouldn't say directly. And you do it in your personal life all the time. Your partner, your spouse, there are things that you are saying to them Have you ever apologized with humor to your spouse? You didn't say, I'm sorry, but you kind of got the laugh or smile from them?

Yep.

Because you know, right?

Yep.

It's at work, the things that we're saying between the lines are things like, I see you, I hear you. I also find this frustrating. It's things like that that you're using to lift someone up, make them feel better. It's not, again, it's not just a matter of getting a laugh, especially if you're trying to get a laugh at someone's expense. You're using it as a tool, and a tool has a purpose. I mean, humor is a tool just like a hammer is a tool. You can use a hammer to build something, or you can use a hammer to hurt someone.

Mm-hmm.

And sometimes the hurt's unintentional. You ever hit your hand, hit your thumb with a hammer? Probably didn't do it on purpose. So mistakes happen, but you can tell from how someone's using the hammer what their intent was. If they're running around the mall swinging it, they're probably intending to hurt someone. But if they're just kind of not a great carpenter, okay, so something's going to happen. But I think there is context. Hold on, I think I can put about 4 more analogies into that if you—

Oh, I know. It's, it's so interesting when you start delving into it because I think every one of us have experienced certain things in our lives. Some things are painful to us. But then at the same token, even some of those painful things like a leader's ability to want to be a perfectionist and then they mess up. And being able to go to the team and say, hey, who has 2 thumbs and really messed up this project? This guy! Is a way that we can get past some of the stress. of the mistakes, stress of failure, stress of, you know, things not going the way that we want as well. And I think it's a really good way to kind of diffuse everybody's anxiety when you're getting together and realizing something didn't go the way we hoped it would.

Yeah. And you can pretend things are fine, but we all know they're not.

Right.

And it just becomes a bigger and bigger elephant in the room.

Yeah.

And that makes people uncomfortable. And that also makes people feel like, well, If we're not going to talk about it, then okay. If nothing's going to get better, why try?

Yes.

And I think that's where a lot of the disengagement comes in. You're not going to address the problems, or you don't even seem to want to acknowledge the problems. So how are we going to solve them? Okay, I'm getting the message that we're not going to solve them. So, you know, it's every man for himself.

Yep. And then, of course, people go, then why even bother? If I step out of my comfort zone, to point something out or to try to work on something and I get shut down, then why would I even bother?

Yeah, you feel like you're talking to a wall, then who's gonna— there's only you. You feel like the fool.

Yes. I'd love to delve into how this all plays with this whole idea of creating really positive connections at work. And we'll get to that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, How is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, business operational excellence through the lens of live theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back. Speaking with the connection expert, Beth Sherman. Beth, when we think about this idea, a lot of the data now that I'm seeing in Gallup is this whole idea of especially with hybrid and remote working that we're losing connections with one another. Pre-COVID, I used to talk about this idea that when you're coming to the water cooler, or the lunchroom, or whatever, you have the ability to create these kind of constructive collisions of people bumping into each other, people who might be working in different silos. Different offices, different departments, that sort of thing. And these created connection points. When we're thinking about this idea of toxic work environment, disengagement, humour in the workplace, what does connection at work have to do with everything we're talking about today? Oh, it's just a little question. I'm sorry, a little question.

Marc, have you not been paying attention for the other 20 minutes of this podcast? Well, we don't know each other. We don't know the commonality. I mean, if you don't know what makes someone laugh, if you don't know what makes someone smile, if you don't know anything about anyone, it's hard to care. I mean, if we're all different places and we're all— I mean, I've worked on remote teams. It's tedious. I mean, you end up on the Zoom sort of frantically texting the 2 people that you know on the Zoom, trying to see if you can get a reaction out of them. Or at least that's what I would do. Me just on the Zoom trying to make my buddy Matt laugh, but still mostly keep a straight face so that he just didn't look insane, like he was laughing to himself. Yes, exactly the way I hope you're doing now. So what I do, I do a lot of workshops, uh, online with remote teams. And one of the things I do is simply, it's just kind of an icebreaker. Um, I, I do one that's called First Impressions. And it's just sort of, it's, it, what it does is In the guise of giving people a line to work to use at networking events, something funny to say or something amusing, something about themselves that they can address at networking events, it lets them— it ends up with them sharing a lot more than they thought they would with their coworkers.

Mm-hmm.

So it's— so basically the first impressions thing is, is do you, you know, what are the things people typically notice about you? Are they true? And are they true or false? And how can you sort of confirm or deny what people's first impressions are? But finding out what people think, what people's first impressions are, or what people tell them they notice is fascinating.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, I've heard all sorts of things from people. And it just gets people thinking, oh, I never noticed that about you. The thing, first thing that I noticed about you was this, or the first thing I noticed about you was this, or I always wanted to know that. Just silly things like that. But it just, it sort of breaks the ice and now they start seeing each other as people. And it gives them an opportunity to kind of socialize the way they might at the water cooler.

For leaders who are tuning in who don't really understand this idea of connections, is there any kind of signs that leaders should be on the lookout for that indicates that their team's actually struggling with a lack of connection with one another?

Well, I would say that it's, again, I think it comes back to self-awareness. I mean, does the— how do people respond when you walk into a room? How do— where are people, you know, how long are people staying at work? How long are people— I mean, all the human things that— what did you do when you didn't enjoy a job? What behavior did you— what did you do when you wanted out as soon as you could? What did you do when you— well, when you didn't like the boss? How did that manifest itself?

Exactly. We've done a lot of shows addressing toxic workplaces. You could even call some of the workplaces I've seen actually poisonous workplaces. Is this a lack of connection on steroids, or is there something deeper going on when you come across kind of the toxic workplace environments?

Well, look, I'll be honest. I'm gonna stay in my lane. I'm a comedian and a comedy writer. So when I, I talk about how to make positive connection and how to make authentic emotional connection with people in a good way.

Yeah.

I'm not a psychologist. I don't know. I mean, I know from personal experience having worked in some toxic work, No, really? Just check my IMDb page, and you'll see some of the places that I've worked over 27 years in Hollywood. So, I think I'm going to stay in my lane on that one and let people who are actually trained for that. But speaking as an employee, I mean, it's just, you can just tell. You can look to me as an employee, if leadership walks into a room, And has no idea that people are unhappy, they're intentionally not seeing something. I mean, having been on writing staffs that were not happy, I mean, you literally hear people crying in their office. As an employee, I know there's a certain point where it's just we all have to put our heads down and get on with it. And there's sort of keep calm and carry on. But then there's also be able to read a room. I mean, as a comedian, I know how to read a room. You can tell.

Yeah.

You can tell what the response is. And you might not know right away what's wrong, but you know when something's not working. You know when usually I'm getting a response from people. I mean, in comedy, or any kind of— well, you've spent time on stage, you can tell. It's always a dialogue. Even if one person's speaking, it's always a dialogue. And if the other person isn't giving back to you what you usually get, There's that spidey sense. All the time. You know something's not right.

Yeah. Something's wrong.

Yep.

Whoop, whoop, we're going down. We're going down. This isn't good. And as a performer, you know, you sort of have to push back a little bit. It's sort of then it's going, okay, I'm not going to go into the regular material. I'm going to check in. Maybe I'll check in with the front row. Maybe I'll sort of do something active to get a little bit of engagement. Or maybe I will acknowledge the elephant in the room. Which is, quiet night? How hungover is everybody? I mean, this is in stand-up. But is there some way, something you can sort of use humor to ask in a way that, you know, ask something between the lines? Ask if— is everyone okay? I mean, as a leader, maybe you should just be asking, is everything okay?

To your point, it takes self-awareness, but it also takes a level of humility. And it takes a trusting kind of environment as well. If we're in kind of the dictatorial kind of carrot-sticking environment where the boss is always— it gets really hard, I think, for some people to distance themselves from that kind of a work environment. And if the leader had kind of more self-awareness into his behavior, into the behavior of how the team interacts with one another, and had the humility to say that, you know what? Maybe I'm the problem here. That would open up a whole world of opportunity for them.

Yes. You have to be human in leadership. There has to be a tiny bit of vulnerability, at least. People have to— that's kind of the definition of leadership is being able to take on the responsibility, but also be human. A good speaker friend of mine is a former British Forces commando, former British Army commando. I mean, just tough guy deployed in war zones all over the world, very high up. And we've had some great conversations. He speaks unsurprisingly about leadership. And we've had some great conversations about humor in leadership. And he's been very open about the fact that he calls humor one of the best tools he had at his disposal. He even used this, I thought this was cool. He used the phrase force multiplier. Which, which is the coolest term I've ever heard attached to comedy.

Nice.

But this guy is a serious guy, but he said he used humor to gauge how his team was feeling sort of before and afterwards. You know, is the person who's usually got a lot of energy to them or got a lot of energy in their response not really giving him much back? He used humor to defuse difficult situations and to create emotional connection with— when he had to deal with civilians. And so, this guy, I mean, he was 6'4 and he'd have to go meet with village elders and people where there was this massive difference in status. And he's also, you know, 6'4, big Army commando man, armed in fatigues, and he had to create emotional connection. To create trust.

Yeah.

And quick, because he needed them to take action. He would need their help with something. And so how did he do that? And he would use humor. And he's not going to be a clown, 6'4 Army commando man, but he would sort of get a local— he would make himself a tiny bit vulnerable. He would get a local custom a little bit wrong so that he could be corrected or do something a little bit wrong or drink the local booze and kind of have the extra, well, that is strong. Just a tiny bit of vulnerability so that he could get a laugh or a smile, anything he had to do. And, um, he did it because it worked.

And it made him human, right? It made him human in, in civil and sometimes inhuman conditions.

Yeah. And, and I did it because humor as a, as a love language is a way to say things between the lines. I asked him that question, like, what is it exactly you were saying between the lines in those situations? And he said, I was saying that Inside this uniform is a person. And that to me feels like the definition of leadership. I hold the authority or I hold, you know, I have some sort of authority over you or I hold authority. But inside this uniform, inside this authority, inside this responsibility is a person.

Dealing with other people.

Yeah. Well, dealing with other people.

Yeah.

And then, I assume he started singing, People who need people are the luckiest people in the world.

Probably. And with this whole cabaret of backup dancers and all armed with AK-47s.

Big Streisand fan. Big Streisand fan.

There you go. I've met lots of entrepreneurs and leaders who when you think about this idea of having them bring their personality to the forefront, which is really what we're talking about, lightening up Kind of, and being ourselves and being the real human that we are. A lot of leaders would push back and say that things like humor in the workplace would undermine professionalism. What do you say to the people tuning in who go, you know, I can't be funny because my business is really serious?

Excuse me. Yeah, I mean, I push credibility. People worry that it's going to undermine their credibility.

Yes.

But, you know, we just talked about big Army commando man. Let's call him Paul, because his name is Paul.

Oh, he's English, so it's Paul.

Paul. Yeah, not my Philadelphia accent guy, Paul. But I mean, did using a little bit of humor with the village elders or with his team, did that undermine his credibility? I mean, if you think it did, you tell him, 6'4 Special Forces commando. Yeah, it's a tool. It's a tool to use at your disposal. Now, the one thing I will say, when it comes to credibility and humor is I always try to make the distinction. I don't try, I do. I make the distinction, the difference between self-awareness and being self-aware and being self-deprecating. Being self-deprecating is putting yourself down just to get a laugh. And that is the sort of humor that undermines credibility, especially if you're something that I like to call a woman or any other sort of minority, because we never know what the biases are of the people that we're speaking to. And if there's a potential that they already think you're less than, why are you going to make their argument for them?

Mm-hmm.

You know, I think it— I mean, it certainly is the case with men as well. I just think sometimes women and minorities, we have a little bit less capital to spend. So I'm not a fan of humor that is self-deprecating, that's just putting yourself down. But I am very much a fan of humor that is self-aware, and self-awareness Awareness is simply acknowledging whatever your audience might be noticing or thinking. It's acknowledging the elephant in the room so that you can remove it as a potential distraction. Like Paul, like Mr. Big Army Commando Man in a room full of village elders, acknowledging the fact that he's 6'4 and armed to the teeth. He's acknowledging that in a way that is a bit between the lines. I mean, he's not saying, look, I know that you are terrified of me. He's doing it in a way where he sort of, he knows that he needs to balance out that dynamic just a little bit.

He too likes puppies and kittens.

Exactly. Exactly. So, I think there's definitely, there is a kind of humor that will undermine your credibility. Also, I think that, you know, again, I frame humor as a love language because the only appropriate use of humor at work is to build connection. And if the humor that you're using is one that is, you know, if it's bullying or if it's putting yourself or someone else down, that doesn't build connection. And that just makes you look like a jerk. So, you shouldn't do it for that reason. But you shouldn't do it because it's going to undermine your credibility. Yeah.

This is conversation I think people need to have more and more. And I'm so thankful that you're here. If this is resonating with the audience, how can they get in touch with you if they want your help?

I'm on LinkedIn. My name is Beth Sherman. And my very cleverly named website is bethsherman.com.

No!

You don't get daytime Emmys for nothing. That's right. Yeah.

So, you mentioned this idea about bullying versus, of course, in comedy circles, they call it punching down. We never ever want to punch down. When people are toying with this, what's one practical way that leaders can start using humor to improve communication and connections within the workplace? What, for somebody who's not used to this, what's like step one?

It's going to sound incredibly obvious, but you would be surprised, and it works. You know what comedians do to let you know, hey, I might just be alone here now, but what comedians do is we smile to let people know that this is going to be a good time. If you smile, It lets down— it encourages people to let down their guard. People will reflect back to you the energy that you give to them. And I have to always— I mean, even on stage, even now, I have to remind myself to smile because I talk about humor and I can very easily get very earnest and the smile comes off my face and it looks very, very intense. But if you just want to lighten the tone of an interaction, Smile. It's such a small thing and it really does. It really does make a difference.

I've been always a big fan and having kind of worked in environments where the leaders kind of distance themselves from everybody else, where, you know, the CEO would come into the business and go up the escalator, wouldn't make eye contact with anybody, go straight to his office and nobody. And I always thought this idea of just, you know, doing what is hospitable, which is to make eye contact and smile. does magical wonders to anybody that you touch. It also makes people wonder if you're a little weird.

Well, yeah, there's a tipping point. There's, there's a tipping point if you're just walking around smiling. I mean, I live in a big city. If I'm sitting on the train smiling, odds are no one's sitting next to me, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Yes.

But just smile to yourself when you're on the bus. You'll, you'll always have your own seat.

Well, and I know, like, I was very shocked when I went to England because I found that there were these little old ladies who didn't make eye contact and they looked really grumpy. And so I told my aunt, I said, next time I come, I'm going to get a t-shirt made and I'm just going to flash these old ladies and the t-shirt will say, smile and make eye contact. I need it.

Well, good luck with that.

Yeah, it's a stodgy bunch.

Yeah, well, look, I lived in New York for a long time. I'm from Philly. I live I lived in Los Angeles for most of my career. And yeah, now I live in London, as you can tell from the accent.

I can. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant accent, by the way. You adapted so well.

It's a brilliant accent. Yeah. I'm noticing also there's an American flag behind me in the shot. I'm not doing a good job of looking American.

For the leaders who are really looking at this going, yeah, I need to change something. I need to change an approach or whatever. I'd love to get into some cautionaries and pitfalls, and we'll get to that right after this.

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As you can tell, Beth and I are committed to serving business leaders just like you. So, if you would like to explore how we could be of benefit to you, maybe if you're planning a retreat, or a leadership training, or a conference, drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. And we are here to help you. We are here to serve. Interestingly enough, I have a comment in the chat. Somebody popped in a comment. Josh Anderson put in, what if I have a hard time being funny in general?

Well, Josh, I'm sure you are funny at some point or time. Small children, your partner, uh, you, you've probably made someone laugh, smile, chuckle at some time in some form. So I would push back against that just a tiny bit. But look, not trying to make comedians here. It's really, it's about connection more than it's about comedy. It's about being human, and I'm almost positive you are. It's about showing people that Part of yourself and being just a tiny bit vulnerable. But a good way, again, smile and just have a bit of self-awareness. I mean, even if you want to try something, try a little bit of understatement. If, if overstatement is exaggeration, understatement is when something really awful happens, go, well, that wasn't great. The pandemic, it wasn't great. It's— you're saying the opposite of what it was, and— but people know what you're actually saying. But Again, I think to some degree, people who aren't— who don't use humor often, there's an advantage to that. Because look, humor, if you're thinking of it as a seasoning, if you think of it as salt, you don't always need a lot, but you always need some. But look, you put a few flakes of sea salt on chocolate, it's amazing. You don't need a lot, just a couple of flakes, and it just absolutely transforms it. So some people are a little sea salt on chocolate, and it just, it makes it stand out more. There are some people though, because they feel very comfortable with humor, or it's just, it's more their nature, then they, they're going to be movie theater salty movie theater popcorn. But you don't have to, um, a little bit goes a long way in your leadership style or in speaking. I mean, I work with speakers, I work with a lot of speakers one-to-one on, on sort of adding That seasoning to their talks. And the people who are very, very serious, man, when they— when we get them, they— we get them 2 or 3 things over the course of 40 minutes. But they— those things land really strong because it's so unexpected. And it's usually because it's something really good or something that really tickles them, or we found this wonderful moment. So the bar is low, but that's— Not a bad thing. That means people are going to be so thrilled when you deliver on it.

And again, it's about this idea of just bringing your authentic self into work. Because I think we all have stuff that makes us laugh, whether that is a puppy or kitten video or something that puts a smile on our face. We all have that at some junction. I don't think I've met anybody who's been completely humorless, except for maybe the accountant. This chief financial officer needs a little help.

Maybe, but they— I'm sure there are things. I'm sure they've found a partner.

Yep.

Using a sense of humor. There's someone that they can make smile. Again, not trying to make comedians here. That's— I don't need the competition. Just trying to make people smile.

Yeah.

And, and you don't even have to make them laugh. You don't have to take a big swing. It's quality over Yes.

Cautionaries and pitfalls. Some of the challenges some people might be tuning in going, yeah, I know I have to do this. Okay. And they're gonna just go all out and try to find this band-aid solution to lighten up and create connection within the workplace so people become less disengaged. What are some of the concerns we should have that we should be aware of when we are trying to change ourselves, trying to change our teams and our work environments?

Well, the first thing we, we talked about was credibility. So credibility, there's, there's always pushback. You don't want it to damage your credibility. So, Go for humor that is self-aware rather than self-deprecating. Sort of psychological safety, not sort of, psychological safety is important. And we covered that a bit. We covered that humor, if you frame it as a love language, a way to lift people up, it's a way to say things that you couldn't or wouldn't say directly, but it's a love language. It's a way to lift people up, period. If what you're saying does not result in connection, then you're working against yourself. So that's a pitfall. And I gotta tell you, as someone who is professionally funny, who's been in writers' rooms for going on 30 years, telling someone, don't take it personally, it's just a joke, that's gaslighting.

Yeah.

I mean, I find a lot of stuff funny. I find a lot of inappropriate stuff funny. I've been in comedy clubs, but especially at work, again, the only purpose of using humor is to build connections. So, when you tell someone, don't take it personally, it's just a joke, then you're gaslighting them. And also, you're not good at joking. Again, I have a rule, my personal taste, even in a comedy club, is unless everyone's laughing, it's not funny.

Right.

So, the art and the craft of it, that's my personal opinion. I mean, at work, everyone must find it funny, period. But for me, even in stand-up, I think the craft of it and the art of it is figuring out how to take a subject that is potentially controversial and find something that we all agree, find the commonality in it. Something that people get confused by is the difference between the subject of the joke and the target of the joke. So, and again, this is more for outside the workplace, but the subject of the joke could be something that's controversial, but the target of the joke It could be hypocrisy. It could be something that is very common, something that we can all agree on.

Mm-hmm.

So it's something— a joke is not necessarily bad or hurtful just by nature of what the subject is. I think we've all made jokes. Now, you have to know your audience. You have to know where you are. You have to know if you're on a comedy club stage or if you're at a meeting, if you're at work. Know your audience, read the room.

You know, it's interesting that you said, because I do, I've heard a lot of people say things like they'll start a conversation and say, I hope you don't get insulted by this, but, or, don't take this personally, but, and you know, the implication is if that's the way you're gonna start your sentence, just stop. But if something does come out of your mouth and you realize that, and you have to tell people, oh, I'm sorry, that was just a joke. Being human enough to be able to turn around and say, you know what? That was in really bad taste. I apologize for that, would help build those bridges that the comment, inappropriate comment that may have slipped out might have caused, right? And so again, it's this idea of being human again, right? Again, you mentioned having a love language and caring about the other person to realize, oh, what I just said, it sounded good in here. But when it came out, it sounded like garbage.

I'm so sorry. Yes, exactly. And look, that's leadership too, isn't it? That's owning your mistakes. That's sort of the buck stops here. And I did that. And I will say from the other side of it that, look, I used the hammer analogy earlier. You can use a hammer to build something or to hurt someone. But sometimes people make mistakes. Sometimes you hit your thumb with the hammer. If you're the thumb, that sounded better in my head. But if you're the thumb, the thing that— the person that gets hurt, people make mistakes and sometimes hurt is unintentional. And in comedy, there's something— in stand-up, there's something called vetting the heckler. And vetting the heckler is you're on stage, you hear something and you think, did I just hear that? Did I just hear what I thought I heard? And what we'll do is we'll sort of throw something back at them. To make sure that we heard what we thought we heard, not just the line, but the intent behind it. And it could be any, you know, anything like, oh, you missed rehearsal, we cut your part out. Just throwing a feeler out there, and then gauging the reaction of the person who said something. If they laugh, yeah, all right, we're fine. Let's keep going.

Mm-hmm.

If they get belligerent, Well, now we know where we stand.

Yep.

It's vetting the heckle.

Yeah. I love this.

And I think that, look, when someone says something stupid to me in real life, and it happens a lot, but when someone says something stupid to me in real life, I try to use that model also. I try to vet the heckler. And so if someone says something stupid to me, I'll say something like, well, first I'll smile. To give it a little balance, but I'll say, Dad, I don't think we say that anymore, Dad. Or I'll smile and say, ah, none taken.

Yeah.

And you just have to wait for them to— but I'm using humor as a love language there. I'm using humor to say something between the lines. And there, what I'm saying between the lines is, you've come dangerously close to offending me, but because I like you or because I have to work with you, I'm desperately trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. So that's vetting the heckler. And again, you can tell from their response, I will say 8.5 times out of 10, that person will fall over themselves apologizing because they'll suddenly realize how that sounded or what they said. They apologize real quick when other people in the room are laughing at what I said.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

But if they double down on the insult, well, now we know where we stand.

Right.

And now you're really— no, you're intentionally trying to Provoke me. And if we're in a professional situation, I'm not going to hesitate to take whatever next step is available to me.

But what's interesting about all this is that—

I gave you a chance.

It really is this idea, like Viktor Frankl said, between stimulus and response is our ability to choose. And so really, that's what we're talking about here, is we get a stimulus, we get somebody hurting our feelings, and we can choose how we're going to react to it. We can give it a beat, We can start again caring about the other person and thinking that probably wasn't the intent behind it. So let's play it as if that wasn't the intent and then address it that way and then see what happens. And if it was the intent, then you have a choice about that relationship as a whole.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Look, people make mistakes and I think things have context. And sometimes, I mean, God knows things have fallen out of my mouth. as jokes where I suddenly realized, oh geez.

But you have 7 Emmys, how could that be?

Yeah, for things that got me taken out of classrooms, which is not having much of a filter and calling— and look, we said earlier, you know, truth is funny.

Yes.

And sometimes pointing out that truth or pointing out that elephant in the room, it's, yes, professionally For me, as someone who is professionally funny, that is an incredibly valuable skill. But it also means I am very good at apologizing when I need to.

And that's, again, another human condition. Boy, you know, this has been a really great discussion, Beth. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today? Is there something that we missed or a thought that you'd like to leave people with?

Did we miss anything?

I don't think so. I think it's the fastest 54 minutes in my life.

See, now there's a straight line I'm not going to touch. Well, I would say, please don't be afraid to use humor. As someone who is— I know it's 2024 and I know the world has changed and there are— there's an awareness that didn't used to be there. But the things that are funny and humor is as a tool for connection is just incredibly valuable. And I really hope that we don't Throw out the baby with the bathwater because it is used correctly. And again, it's the same way we use it in our everyday life. Think about how you use it with your kids, with your partner, whoever you use it with, with our friends. We use it because it's emotional connection. It makes us feel closer to them. Don't you feel closer to someone who makes you laugh or smile? I mean, it makes you feel seen and heard and understood. When someone has the ability to do that, it just cuts through everything else and it reminds us that, you know, it makes us feel really close to them. And so using that and making people feel that in business is powerful. And it's my message is just, yeah, please don't be afraid to use it. Learn like any other tool how to use it well, but please use it. Could you remind I'm on LinkedIn as Beth Sherman, and my website is bethsherman.com. And I— Easy to find. I speak, I do workshops, and I work one-on-one with people.

Love it. Beth, thank you so much for doing this with us today. This has been absolutely stellar. I've enjoyed every single moment. There's another straight line for you.

I enjoyed being here with you, Marc. Thank you.

This has been absolutely brilliant. Loved having you. Thank you so much.

My pleasure.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service with you and for you. And while you're at it, why don't you Go ahead, leave a comment or review about this episode. I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And of course, if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead, click the subscribe button? It's been an absolute blast having you along for this episode, and thank you so much for joining me. It has been a joy. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

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Thank you.

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