Leadership Behavior That Builds—or Breaks—Momentum

You can be smart. You can be experienced. You can have the title, the strategy, and the right intentions. And still, by reducing your impact every single day without even knowing it, your leadership impact is suffering. Because here's the thing. It's measured by what happens to people Not when you say something but after you show up, after you speak up, and after you change directions. And that's what we're going to be talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. Of course, this is where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. I'm so glad that you're with us today because my guest is Dr. Scott Hutchinson. And today, we are going to be unpacking why leadership impact isn't really about authority or intention. It's about the biological signals your behavior sends every single day. So, my one ask is that if you know somebody who could use the information that we're sharing with you today, Please, for goodness sakes, please make sure you subscribe to this podcast and share the episodes because knowledge is power but only when you are acting on them and sharing them out. So, here's the thing. I need you to subscribe to the podcast. We're trying to get to 2,000 followers and your help could help make that happen. Okay, so let me paint a picture you might recognize. You leave a meeting thinking, wow, that went really, really well. We had clear direction. We had logical decision-making. We had no drama. But afterwards, people hesitate. Work slows down. Questions come back that you thought were already answered. And nothing looks broken. But really, when you look at everything, it looks like momentum is leaking out Anyway, so that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, where in your leadership do people pause, second-guess, or wait because your signals aren't as clear or consistent as you might think they are? Again, I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. Why don't you go ahead, share the link to this episode on your favorite social media platform, hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership, and post it and put your comments down. That way, you'll be part of this conversation and we get to see what your thoughts and your experiences are as well. As I mentioned, my guest today studies leadership in a way most of us were never really taught to think about. Dr. Scott Hutchinson is a professor, researcher, and practitioner who examines leadership through the lens of behavioral biology and neuroscience. Specifically, how everyday leader behavior shapes things like focus, stress, trust, performance. He's worked with over 4,000 leaders across 147 countries. And he's the author of Biohacking Leadership, which explores how leaders can increase impact without having burnout. micromanagement, or that whole thing about having to work these incredibly long hours. Scott, welcome to the show!

Hey Marc! Thank you for having me. Sorry.

Yeah. So Scott, before we get too deep into today's topic, could you tell us a little bit about who your clients are and how you serve them?

Sure. So, I started doing this work In an unexpected way. So let me take you back to an early experience that kind of set me on this path of who my clients and students have become. So I'm going to take you all the way back to 1987 or so. And I was an undergraduate theater major and focusing on directing. And so I was directing shows. You know, community theaters around the Southeast. And I was directing a show in which the actors in a community theater setting are amateurs. You know, they have day jobs. They just do that for fun. And one of my cast members was an engineer at a nearby research lab. And we got to know one another. And he is the first one who observed to me, said, you know what? There are lessons in theater that could apply back at the research lab. where I work. We're being asked to collaborate in a way that we really haven't before, and theater's pretty collaborative. What do you think about doing some workshops on leadership and collaboration back at my lab? And I'd love to say I caught the bug then, but really my criteria for saying yes or no was, does this pay? And he said, yeah, it pays a little bit. So I took the gig. And saw an ability to translate what I had been learning in theater into the setting of engineers, scientists, and technology professionals. And that's when I decided, oh, this is really, really interesting. And so from that day forward, more opportunities came my way to do that sort of work than directing theatrical productions. So, that was my first entree. So, my customers, my clients, and the students that I teach are usually engineers, scientists, or technologists, or leaders of engineering, science, and technology-centric kinds of organizations. Not exclusively. But as a faculty member at Purdue University working in engineering and technology, that's a good spot to be in.

Nice! You know, you and I share then an affinity because I wrote a book called Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater.

Well, I'm gonna have to look that up, Marc. Yeah.

Because I had a similar epiphany having acted. And I thought, With my years of kind of management experience going into fixed cultures and that sort of thing, I started acting in 2016. And so, my very first kind of epiphany was we put on 6 shows and we did a ton of work to make that happen. And my epiphany was if businesses put the time, attention, and focus into their business that we did just to put on 6 shows, Yeah. Have amazing businesses.

Right, right.

Right? And so, it's so funny that you have kind of this thing on your side and I had it on my side. And it's like, oh, this is— there are similar concepts here for sure.

That's right. Another discussion that I remember having, if it was that show or a different show. Of course, if you watch movies or see plays, you know what stage presence is, right? It's that person on stage that you just kind of can't take your eye off of, or the person just lights up the screen. So, we used to talk about not just stage presence but backstage presence.

Yes.

Who's that person in the cast? They may not be, you know, top of the bill, but they could be a crew member. But something about the way they treat people backstage does as much to make sure you have a great production than an all-star on the stage, and often more. So, a lot of my work has been how do you bring those 2 things together? They're stage presence and backstage presence.

Yeah, yeah. And of course, I think what Stephen Covey mentioned it as being moral authority in his book, right? In the 7 Habits, he talked about this idea that people don't have to have a rank to be a leader. People just— some people are just naturally leaders.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, let's kick back to my introduction. I mentioned this idea that A lot of times, leaders are frustrated. They tend— I see more times than not, I see when people see problems, they start pointing fingers. And I always like to joke on this phone, on this show that when people are pointing fingers, they're pointing 3 at themselves and they don't know it. But they blame all the symptoms around it. So, how does somebody who's tuning in today know that they have this problem of impact?

Yeah. So, I would ask kind of a simple question. Whether you already have a team that's on your payroll or maybe you are an entrepreneur just getting started, you probably still have a group of people that you need to come around you, whether that's advisors or your first potential customers or investors. You are impacting a group of people as a leader, whether you're just a thought leader with a great idea looking for funding support or whether you're head of an organization. So, the data says that team performance, 50% to 70% of team performance is highly dependent on the leader of that team or the leader of that organization. And the reason it's 50% to 70% is because it depends on what outcome you're looking at, whether it's job satisfaction or engagement or actually performance, hitting the KPIs. 50% to 70% of whether or not that happens is dependent on that leader. And why is that? I mean, most of the time, especially in our organizational life, we're working with smart people. Could we use more resources? Sure. But we're probably pretty well-resourced. So, the intervening variable seems to be that leader. So, what is it about that leader? And that is what kind of caught my attention a few years ago to say, what is a leader doing or not doing that impacts the performance of their team. And it was all pointing to behaviors, right? Behavioral signals. And what my research looked at is what are the key behavioral signals that when signaled consistently lead to higher levels of leadership impact and team or organizational performance. So, that's the model that I've been working on over these last few years and the model that is explained in my latest book, Biohacking Leadership.

Yeah. So, I mean, I'd love to delve a little bit more into that. But for the moment, I'd like to— I do know that when people are tuned in, they have a belief system. Are there any myths that we need to bust about the leader's role and how they drive impact? Because I know a lot of them And we'll turn around and again, they'll blame the wrong things. They'll blame symptoms. What kind of myths are they telling themselves that we need to bust today?

I mean, I think that there's a couple of things that are going on. One is that a leader has a significant impact. But it might not be the kind of impact that they think that they have. All right. So first of all, think about this. How many people, and I'd ask your listener to kind of think about this as well. How many people can you really tell what to do? You know, in your entire life, how many people can you really tell what to do? I've got zero right now. About 20 years ago, I had 2 and they were about this tall. You can't see my hand, right? But they were my toddlers. Yeah. Maybe through elementary school, I got, you know, I can kind of tell them what to do and they have to do it.

That's when you felt so powerful.

Once they're young adults and I can't tell them what to do. And when you're working with smart people who could go to work anywhere, right, you really can't tell them what to do. So, you have to create an environment in which they can be satisfied with their work and challenged and co-create with them a culture that works for everybody. So, a leadership has a lot of impact in their ability to create that culture. But a leader does not have much impact when it comes to kind of telling and selling. And what I find is leaders, you know, I told them what to do. You know, I unrolled the strategy. It's not happening. So, that's when the finger pointing starts to occur. And what I do is I help leaders understand, all right, what behavioral signals am I sending? And how are those signals being received? And what really biologically is that doing to those I'm attempting to lead? Whether it's someone I'm trying to get to write a check or someone I'm trying to get to perform in a team. So, that's That's what I focus on, helping leaders understand. And that's what we mean by biohacking. Every human relationship, whether it's leader-follower, whether it's spousal or parental, it is based in behavior. I know many of us have had people in our lives who told us they loved us but didn't behave as though they love us. And behavior speaks a lot louder than those words of endearment. So, helping a leader align their behaviors with their intent.

So, let's put this into context for the audience. What are some of the early signs that a leader's behavior is creating stress instead of clarity? Because I mean, when you're talking to the leader, he's going, yeah, yeah, I'm a great communicator. I tell people what to do and I follow up. And they have all these grinds out. So, So, let's talk a little bit about kind of what are the signs now that what they're doing is ineffective and how are they creating stress instead of clarity?

Yeah. So, I'd ask your listeners or viewers to go back in their history and think about 2 scenarios. One in which they worked with a leader who seemed to bring out the very best in them. They're fully engaged. They were challenged. They were doing great work. They may work really hard, but it was rewarding, right? So, that's one scenario. And then, think about a time where that was not the case. There was something about working under that particular leader that didn't prompt those. And so, when I asked that question in a workshop or whatever, I asked them to think about how did that First, physiologically. Physiologically. So, I think back to early in my career. I did some technical writing on American Airlines. And I had a leader by the name of Dale. So, my team leader who gave me an assignment. And I took some risks in my writing. I got a little bit more creative than I'd usually seen done in technical writing. I used a metaphor that was personal to me. I kind of questioned myself. Should I turn it in? Well, she called me into her office and I was nervous. And when she sat down, she leaned forward. She said, Scott, you are a really good writer. I especially love this metaphor that you used. How can we support you to do more writing like this? How did I feel when I heard that? Oh my gosh, Marc. I felt Terrific, right? I got a— guarantee you, I got a dose or a tweak of oxytocin. I felt very close to Dale. Dopamine, right? I was excited with the opportunity to grow and learn more. So, I felt it physiologically. On the other hand, I haven't had very many experiences like this. But I have one leader comes to mind where He just called me out on everything. And anytime he wanted to talk, I got a knot in my stomach.

Hmm.

And he was hypercritical, eventually destroyed our entire team. But leaders have this outsized impact, first physiologically on us. They can inspire us. They can make us nervous. They can make us anxious.

Mm-hmm.

So that physiological reaction creates energy, right? It quickens our pulse. It spikes a neurochemical. It makes our stomach acids churn or our muscles tense. And then that sends a signal to the brain. And the brain labels that with a word, one of our feeling words, our emotion words. I feel nervous. I feel inspired. What have you. When we are experiencing any given emotion regularly, it impacts our performance.

Of course.

Well, yeah. So, for your leaders or your listeners, right? In that first experience where you worked with a leader that brought out the best in you, you wanted to do more for that leader, more to reach the collective goals that you had. In that second experience, if you're like me, you withdrew. Or you got angry and you lashed out. I'm more of a withdrawer. And then eventually, you figure out an escape route. All right, this isn't sustainable. I either need a new job or I need to find a different place in this organization or what have you.

Mm-hmm.

So, leaders impact us. Their behavior impacts us first physiologically, then emotionally, and then in our own behavior.

Right.

And so, a good leader pays attention to the behavior and say, I'm not getting the behavior out of them that I expected. So, I need to adjust my behavior. I need to change the behavioral signals that I'm sending.

Yeah. Now, first of all, first in your story, when you felt the way you did on both sides, would it be fair to say that there's also spin-off feelings that the people around you are also feeling it?

Absolutely. What you often learn is you're not alone.

Right.

You know, there are other people who are getting similar sorts of signals. And when you start to see in this, in the case of my kind of second example, this was a new leader brought into an existing team. So, there was a retirement. That person left. We hired someone new. The only new variable was that leader. Right.

But sorry, but along with that new leader, you also had fear of change. You had apprehension as far as what's like— we already had without people even knowing the person. We already as human beings, as a culture, as a community, we're already going to have some hesitations. And we're going to be dipping our toes in the water a little bit with a little bit of hesitation.

That's right. So, anytime there's change or uncertainties, back to neurochemicals, Our cortisol is going to be a little bit high.

Right.

I'm kind of anxious. There's an interesting thing about cortisol. Cortisol and oxytocin, so the bonding hormone, can't really exist at high levels together. So, when you're walking, when you're a leader and you're walking into a situation in which you anticipate there's probably some stress in this group, the way to reduce stress is to signal warmth, right? And warmth will spike oxytocin. So, if you think about in your own personal life, when you are super stressed, you're anxious, you've got a, you know, a difficult problem, whether it's financial or career-wise or whatever, and you just can't think clearly.

Mm-hmm.

Hopefully, you have that person in your life where all you need to do is kind of hear their voice and talk some things through with them. And even if they don't give you any sage advice, your stress level goes down and you can think a bit more clearly and you say, okay, it's not better, but I at least see a next step. That's the job of a leader, whether they're walking into a stressful situation because of uncertainty or change. Or, you know, when it arises, sometimes for legitimate reasons. Your team members can't function when their cortisol is high. So, we found these 3 behavioral channels of warmth, Competence and gravitas. And we help leaders understand what are the behaviors that consistently result in, in the connection and the trust that comes from warmth, the recognition that there is something to learn through a leader's competence, right?

Uh-huh.

And then, the way we think about gravitas is really kind of a planetary definition of gravity. When a leader can bring people together, right? Much like the Earth brings celestial bodies. We just have one, but other planets have more than one into orbit. So, we connect with warmth. We contribute with competence. And then, we create shared value with our gravitas. So, those are the 3 biodynamic channels that we focus on when we're helping leaders to say, I need to understand how to when I need to, how to dial up warmth, dial up competence, and dial up gravitas. And that results in leadership impact.

I love that. So, I'd like to dig a little bit deeper because I think what happens is when people are hearing this stuff for the first time and they're kind of having this aha moment, we need to bring it into context so that they can apply it right away. And so, we'll dig a little bit deeper and we'll get to that. Right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Don't forget, buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back! I am speaking with Dr. Scott Hutchison. Dr. Hutchison, let's start. Why don't we talk about your book? I just flogged my book shamelessly. Why don't we talk about your book a little bit?

Sure, sure. So, I'm probably much like you. I don't set out to say, I'm gonna write a book this year. Typically, I have a body of work. I'm teaching it in professional development workshops or in my university classrooms. And then I say, you know what, I think I have enough experience and I've enough testbeds with these concepts that maybe I should write a book. That's kind of been my history with writing books, and that was the case on this one as well. And so, About 4 years ago, 2 opportunities came my way. One was a big research lab out in California said, we've had a guy doing executive presence training for us for years and he's no longer available. He's retired. Would you be interested in doing some executive presence training? And I said, maybe. I was not a big fan of most of the executive presence trainings that I have experienced. I didn't think it was very science-based. So, I said, I need some time to dig into that as a subject from a very scientific point of view. So, that was one prompting that said, all right, let me understand leadership impact from my point of view and based in the evidence. And then, the other was I started teaching in a Master's of Engineering Management program. Wow! Where I had really smart young engineers who have now been asked to take on a leadership role. And they needed to show up day one leading a team. So, what does it look like to be an engineering leader rather than just an individual contributor as an engineer? So, that sent me to— of course, I'm an academic. So, you start with the literature. You know what's been written already, what hasn't, recognize a gap in the literature. And the gap that I saw is that there really wasn't a scientific evidence-based model of executive presence. And that's when I started to think about it is really more behavioral and sent me to the behavioral sciences to develop that model. So, the provocative title of Biohacking Leadership kind of builds on the broader biohacking conversation that's been occurring over the last 10 years or so around Optimizing longevity and human health. Well, those are biological processes too. So, leadership. Leadership is behavioral. Behavior is biological. We behave because we are biologically attuned to behave in a certain way. And biology can be tweaked. It can be understood so thus, it can be hacked. So, that's where we get this notion of Biohacking leadership.

I love that. It's such a— and again, I mentioned just before we went live, I mentioned how unique I thought this whole philosophy was of creating this connection to biology and neuroscience all within the confines of how we behave. And when you were talking about your experience with Dale and with the other leader, part of it was, did Dale understand that she was an effective leader because of how she was behaving? Because I would probably suggest that the other person would need a great deal of humility to stop pointing fingers and stop for a second and just say, I wonder, is it me?

Yeah, that's a good question. And if you think about how do we learn to lead? Well, how do we learn to to do anything else. I mean, how do we as infants eventually learn to talk?

Mm-hmm.

Well, we know that we have to be talked to, right? We start imitating first the sounds, and then we apply meaning to those sounds, and then we eventually develop language. Same with anything else, right? We try things, we fail, We try again until we get it right. And we keep doing it that way until the data or experience tells us, oh, that's not working anymore. We try something else. I have 2 sons in their 20s. And I remember one of my sons, he had his first little girlfriend in 6th or 7th grade. And he says, how do I make sure I'm a good boyfriend? Right? Well, you don't know. You've seen it on TV.

Yeah.

Maybe you've seen how dad and mom react to one another. You don't know.

Yeah.

Right? So, you experiment. All right, I'm going to try a small gift or I'm going to try this, that, or the other and see what kind of reaction I get. It's the same for leaders. So, I think the difference is someone like Dale had approached progressive leadership responsibilities as a learner. I'm going to try things. First, I'm going to try things that I've seen other people do effectively. I'm going to figure out what works for me or You know, that might have worked for them. But it doesn't seem to be working for me. It's not authentically who I am. So, I try something else. So, I think that we learn to lead by experimentation and figure out what works. And eventually, we find out, oh, when I have someone who's not very motivated, I'm going to try some things to get them motivated and eventually, hopefully stumble on something that works. And then, I put that in my databank. And the next time I see a similar set of circumstances, I try the same thing. And if it doesn't work, then I think, oh, well, maybe I need a broader array of methods to motivate people. So eventually, we figure it out if we are open to learning and being humble and say, gosh, I screwed that up. Let me try that again. Versus when we were so fixed in I'm going to tell you what to do. And if you don't do it, then I'm just going to tell you again but louder. And I'm not going to make many other adjustments other than being perhaps more aggressive. So, I think a leader with humility understands, I've never been a leader in this capacity before. I'm going to try some things. When I fail, I will apologize and try again until I figure out kind of what works for me and what works for the for the team around me. I think that's the difference between Dale and then the other person who will remain nameless.

Yes, that's fine. And so, this nameless person, if he's tuning in right now, he needs some level of humility to be able to kind of park his programming somehow to be able to say, to get out of his head and saying, I'm the boss. And if I want your opinion, I'll tell you what it is. He needs to change, be able to shake up that kind of worldview or that behavior bubble into something that's going to become more concrete. How does one recognize it and then take steps to change it? I mean, I only ask small questions, by the way.

Yeah, yeah. You know, another book that I was flirting with that I haven't written yet, and I may never write it. But by virtue of working with some science-based organizations, I became really interested in how scientists lead versus non-scientists. And the idea is that if we approach leadership as an experiment with a hypothesis, collect data, And then determine whether our hypothesis was correct or not. So, I think that in order to be an effective leader, you have to be naturally curious and you have to be an experimenter. I'm going to try some things. I'm going to gather data and I'm going to be humble enough to say, wow, that hypothesis was wrong. And you know what? That's okay. Let's try a different experiment next time. I mean, how many filaments did Edison use before he figured out the right one? So, you have to be relentlessly curious about people, I think, because leadership has nothing to do with machines and algorithms. It has everything to do with people. So, we have to experiment. Earlier, before folks logged on, your screen back there had a little improv thing there, right?

Yep.

So something else we may have in common. For years, I spent time as a faculty advisor for the Purdue Stand-Up Comedy Club for students.

Nice.

And most of those were scientists and engineers, but I'm kind of a comedy geek, right? I like not just to listen or watch comedy, but I like to understand how You know, Seinfeld or Jim Gaffigan or whoever puts together an hour-long Netflix special or what have you. And they do it through micro experiments at clubs in New York City or other sort of comedy meccas. They have an idea for a joke. They go and do 2 minutes at open mic and try it out and see if it works.

Yeah.

And then they refine that. They throw stuff out. I thought it was funny, but no one else thinks it's funny. And they will experiment, many of them, to substitute one word or emphasis on a different word. So, that is a behavioral experiment. They're sending something out and they get that immediate feedback, whether it's a laugh or not.

Right.

Leadership is kind of the same way. I'm trying things and not only what I say, but how I say it, how I show up. And if I'm not getting the results that I expect, that comes back to me. I need to try it a different way until it works most of the time.

I love that. Hey, for the people who are tuning in, if this is really resonating with them, how can they get in touch with you?

Sure.

I'm easy to find online if you get the spelling of my last name correct. And it's H-U-T-C-H-E-S-O-N. So, scotthutchison.com. Google Scott Hutchison and Purdue. You Google my name and I'm probably the first one that'll pop up. But scotthutchison.com.

You know, you were talking about that like, I love this science-based thing because I think as a leader coming up the ranks, like I started as my first leadership role was at McDonald's at the age of 17. And I had A lot of learning to do. And I evolved through it. But to your point, every time something went wrong, I had the wherewithal to turn around and go, okay, what could I have done to make that better? And because of it, I realized the one thing about Edison's light bulb is once he came onto a filament that worked, you didn't have that filament showing up because he had an ego problem or turned into a diva, right?

Right.

And he had to readjust the element. With human beings, we're constantly adjusting for personality types, for where people might be within their journey with us. They might even be going through personality changes because of things at home. This whole idea of park your ego at the door is nonsense because we're dealing with live beings who are having a human experience.

Yeah, and that's why I settle on this notion of— I talk about leadership biodynamics. And the analogy that I use is like a mixing board. You have these 3 behavioral channels of warmth, competence, and gravitas.

Yes.

But they don't all need turned up to 11, to use a Spinal Tap reference there, right, all the time. So depending— so what we do is with leaders, we say, all right, well, what's the current situation in your team, in your organization, or even with one individual? And then, what do you need to lead with Versus what channel needs to be supportive. So, kind of the default is you always start with warmth. But if you're in a crisis, there's really no time for warmth. If you're the only one who knows where the exit is and the building is on fire, you start with your competence. Everybody follow me. The exit's that way.

Right?

Worry about the warm and fuzzy stuff later. In times of when no one seems to know what to do next, maybe it's gravitas. Maybe they need some grounding and an opportunity to sort of come together before we take action. So, these biodynamic channels are how we help leaders understand, all right, I need to dial up warmth here.

Yeah.

Or if I'm the only— if my expertise is particularly valuable, or maybe it's competence. Or if I want to make room for the expertise of others, if I'm facing a really complex issue and there's like no single area of expertise that is going to fix it, I need to dial my expertise down to leave room for other areas of expertise. For other people. And that's what that researcher back at that research lab in the '80s was getting at. He's saying like, we are now not just like building a weapon for the United States Army. We're now dealing with issues related to like climate change and energy independence. And it's mechanical engineers working with physicists, working with chemists. So, they were looking for that level of collaboration. How do we have multiple areas of competence working together to design really complex solutions to complex challenges. So, helping leaders understand what's the context and then how do I adjust my behavioral channels, if you will, to optimize the performance of my team or my organization.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I think it's really ironic that a lot of people will hire people based on their competencies. They'll go through the resume. They have a really good interview process to make sure that they're getting the very best person. And then, when that person comes on board, they start to micromanage and kind of depower the individual to just, here's your job description. That's all you're allowed to just do. Just do your work.

That's right, that's right. And competence can come from technical expertise but can also just come from lived experience.

Absolutely!

I've done a lot of work in the impact of opioids in rural United States, and you bring together some sort of coalition, and you may have physicians and addiction experts and, you know, the sheriff in the mix, but then you may also have someone who only has a high school diploma, but they're in recovery, or they may have a parent who has tragically lost a child to addiction.

Mm-hmm.

That is such a complex issue that you need all of those levels of expertise. The physician doesn't know The physician's experience isn't any more valuable than another person's lived experience. So, a good leader is going to understand when multiple areas of competence are going to be valuable and needed.

Well, and I look even at our political system now. Like I look at who's being put into roles that they just completely lack competence. And then, because they lack competence, trust goes down. So, one aspect that we really haven't talked about on the show thus far is the role that trust plays as people are trying to adjust for their own competencies and so on. But then, the competencies and the capabilities of the people that they're leading. So, can we talk a little bit of how trust is a byproduct of all this?

Yeah, I mean, trust is highly associated with that warmth channel.

Right.

So, warmth helps create connection. And we feel safe being in someone's proximity, or when we feel safe, you're not going to do me harm, you are friendly, you are warm. Well, the default is trust. And we That opens the door for competence. I can learn something from someone who is competent, a lecturer or an author. I might read their book. I have no idea what kind of person they are.

Right.

But I'm not really going to think of them as a leader unless I have that personal connection that comes through warmth. So, I might respect their competence. But competence enough isn't— competence in and of itself isn't enough to be a leader. You really do need connection through warmth, contribution through competence, and the ability to bring people together. Say, look, we can create code. We can create shared value together to move forward. But it starts with trust. You don't get the other 2 if you don't first establish trust.

Yeah, it's interesting because as you were saying that, I was trying to think of situations where I ran across somebody who was extremely engaging, very warm. But the heckles on the back of my neck went up and it's like, I don't trust you.

Yeah, that's right.

So, in spite of those, in spite of warmth kind of being that first catalyst to trust, it's still possible that even with that, there needs to be other components components in order for me to turn around and say, you know what? Maybe I misread you. I do trust you now.

Yeah, I mean, there are certain relationships that don't require those other things, right? I mean, I may have had an elderly aunt who was very warm and I enjoyed being around her. She never made me feel uncomfortable. But she may not have any competence that's of interest to me. So, but with a leader, there's more to it than that. The lowest bar is like, I don't think you're going to do me any harm. And until you prove otherwise, we're good. But that in and of itself isn't a leader-follower relationship. I need to think, but you also have something of value through your competence. Either something I can learn from you or access to resources that could be helpful for me. And then, that still isn't enough. It is gravitas that says, and there's something great we can do together. So, you really need all 3 of these. There are different levels of trust. One trust is, I don't think you're going to do me any harm. You're not going to punch me in the eye. That's okay. Yeah.

Right?

But there's more risk. We say, but we're going to— if we want to do something together, I need to think that you have something of value to offer. And that we can actually work together.

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. That kind of shakes that whole trust model up.

Yeah.

And I really do like your metaphor of like a mixing board because not everybody needs the 11. Yeah, yeah.

Hey, what Nigel Tufnel says from last night.

Right, right. So, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some pitfalls and cautionaries as people kind of consume this. information and kind of realize, yes, yes, I have some work to do. I worry that it becomes the kind of initiative of the month. We need to think about what do we need to be aware of as we move forward through this so that we know that we're making a positive impact and that we're moving forward productively rather than just creating the policy of the month. And we'll get to that right after this.

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We are having a phenomenal discussion. I hope you're getting tons of value from what we're talking about today. As you could tell, Dr. Scott and I are super focused on serving you and your team. So, if you are planning a leadership retreat, or a conference, or you'd like to explore how maybe we could help benefit you and your team, drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. We're more than happy to be here to help serve you. Scott, based on our conversation today, it's clear to me that if we really wanted to kind of tip the scales on performance, engagement, and even retention, leaders need to have a substantial mindset shift before we can ever improve that. Have I got that right?

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean, I think some people understand this intuitively and have figured out how to do some of what we're talking about. Others need language and models to kind of help them do that. And that's what I've tried to create.

Lovely! So, as people are tapping into this and they say, yeah, I have some work to do on this, what are some cautionaries? What are some things we should be aware of that could create a tripping hazard for us as we move forward?

I think that being aware of context is super important. And that what What works right now with a given group of people may not be the same thing that will work tomorrow with a slightly different group of people. I try to remind leaders that any collection of people on any given day is unique in all of the history of experience.

Yeah.

Right? Every individual is unique. And so, every collection of individuals is unique. And tomorrow, things might be slightly different just because of perhaps what's going on in one person's life. So, being— don't get locked in to only one way of doing things. Again, that's why this is a dynamic sort of process. Gather data, make decisions based on that data, try things. But when it's not working, try something else.

Mm-hmm.

Until you stumble upon what's working right now for this particular instance.

And I think that there's enough room in this 3-channel biodynamic model that it covers most of those So, one of the things that I'm constantly seeing from leaders when they're trying to instigate change is that they'll turn around and it's their good intentions that kind of come to the fore. This is what I want to do. This is what I want to see in my team. This I really— and they have all these really good intentions to make something happen. But somewhere along the way, the team is getting completely mixed signals.

Yeah.

How can they become a little bit more aware of that?

Yeah, actually, I'll bring up another experience from theater. So, most people have heard of Stanislavski, the Russian director. He had a contemporary, Meyerhold. And Stanislavski was all about method acting, you know, what's happening inside. Meyerhold was more external-focused. So, he talked about the biomechanics of theater and said every performer is 2 people really, the conceiver of the idea and the executor of the idea. And I said, it's the same thing with a leader. You may have a brilliant strategic mind. But this body, this voice, the way in which you behave is the gateway for everyone else. So, I tell leaders, no one can see how you think. They can't see how you think. So, that's how we get to kind of a more modern definition of executive presence. Executive means the executive functions of the brain. Not a spot in the C-suite, the ability to do long-range planning and that sort of thing. Presence means no one can see how you think. They have to witness how you think through your behavior, the way in which you behave with them and the way they witness that you behave in different circumstances. So, kind of aligning those 2 things. You can be brilliant. That's what I tell my engineers. My Purdue engineers are the top on the planet. But you can't see how you lead, right? You could witness what kind of engineer you are because you built this tremendous circuit board or this algorithm or whatever. So, leadership is external. It is all behavioral. It has really nothing to do with what's going on inside unless what's going on outside matches what's going on inside.

I love that. Scott, this has been such a great discussion. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today? Anything we missed?

I don't think we missed anything. But I'm definitely gonna look for your book, Marc. I'm excited to read it.

Likewise, I'm super excited to read your book because I think it's putting in perspective things that intuitively I know. And I love, again, I love this idea of mixing biology and neuroscience together to help create some understanding about how we behave and how we interpret behavior as well. So, I think that's going to be brilliant. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Sure. scotthutchison.com is the easiest place to find me.

And the spelling is on his window right now. That's the spelling.

Marc with a C. You have to remind people how to spell Marc, I'm sure.

All the time.

Thanks, Mom!

Yeah, I went to Starbucks and I said, it's what's her name, Marc. Marc with a C. And they spelled it C-A-R-C. Scott, thank you so much for being on the show today. It was absolutely brilliant. Thanks for being here.

Thanks for having me, Marc.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you'd like 30 minutes of my time to help brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. And of course, reach out to Dr. Hutcheson if you think that you can use some of this kind of neuroscience within your business to help you help your team become better, more effective leaders. Ultimately, I know that it's our honor to be of service to you. So, please feel free to reach out. And while you're at it, why don't you leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And of course, while you're at it, please make sure that you subscribe to the podcast. Please. It's been so great hanging out with you today. Thank you for joining me. It's been an absolute pleasure. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

See you next week!

See you next week!