Leading in Real Time

Between the changing remote worker hybrid leadership demand and the changing demographic, a lot of what we know about leadership has to change. How do we overcome leadership limitations that is required in this day and age. And that's coming up next on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them work on their business, not just in their business. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, I am excited to welcome leadership expert and author Michelle Ray. She has just published a brand new book, Leading in Real Time, and we will be talking to her a little bit about what that means. And we'll get to that in just a moment. I want to adjust to the demands of our post-COVID generational leadership requirements. That is other than tuning into this episode, I mean. Go ahead and share your experience on social media and make sure that you hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. As I mentioned, my guest today is author, leadership expert, and sought-after keynote speaker Michelle Ray. Michelle advocates the importance of developing leadership and accountability skills regardless of one's title. She is committed to helping her clients in an array of industries create engaging workplaces, develop exceptional leaders and implement practical strategies to help revitalize their culture. She is the author of Lead Yourself First: Indispensable Lessons in Business and in Life and has just published her second book, really hot off the presses, Leading in Real Time: How to Drive Success in a Radically Changing World. Here's a little bit of a preview. Welcome, Michelle. It's so great to have you on the show today.

Thank you, Marc. It's such a pleasure to be here.

I wanted to make absolutely sure we did everything in our power to make sure that everybody knows what your book is about. But maybe you can start off by telling us a little bit about what you do for your clients.

Well, my goal with my clients is to inspire, inform, and help leaders and their teams to ignite the power of positive change.

Nice, nice. And you do that through— obviously, I've seen you doing keynote presentations. I know that people are constantly calling you up and saying, come on to our big stage. Do you do coaching and consulting as well?

Yes, I do because I think it's so important for leaders to stay current. And those leaders who are open about what they need to develop in their own skill set, they're the ones I love to work with.

Nice, nice. Your new book, Brand Spanking New: Leading in Real Time. Why is this so timely for today?

I think it's because with leadership, the traditional view was very much long-term. We'd look out over the horizon and plan our strategies. And right now, I think if there's anything that we've learned, especially over the last 18 months, is that leadership has become much more present moment-based. And that's how we need to lead is in the now. So that we can remain ready, responsive, and relevant to answer the call.

Nice, nice. And so, leading in real time. And we talked in my opening, I talked about this idea that we've gone through COVID, which created this huge big shake-up in how we do things. And I know from a leadership perspective, we went from this idea of command and control to now we have remote workers. We had to figure out how do we trust our workforce. Are you seeing any other trends that are starting to rear its head through the pandemic?

Well, that point that you just made there about trust, I mean, that's certainly key. It's always been the key to great workplace relationships. If you don't trust people, you don't have— you have a relationship problem first of all. And I think that I would agree that that's one of the most important things in this day and age. And also just understanding the diverse composition of your workforce. The fact that people can be working for your organization from all over the world. And just understanding that they may have a different mindset to you. They're very conscious of what's going on around them in the world. And there's no delineation between being passionate about a particular social issue, whether you're at work or whether you are not at work. So people are passionate wherever they are about a multitude of things. And as leaders, we need to really understand that. And they have no fear about expressing their voice and using their voice to create change. It's very, very different to when I was being— I was working for a leader, I was going to say.

You were working for who?

When I was working for a leader, when I started my career, I think that we kind of revered our leaders. We put them on a pedestal. But I think when you look at the current state of the workforce and business, people want to be on a level playing field with their leaders. They want parity. They want transparency. They want to be able to collaborate. They want to be seen as an equal.

I think it's a case now that people have called— they're calling out the leaders. They realize that leaders are human beings first.

Yes.

And to that end, they're also fallible.

That's right.

And I joke about how when I was an underling and like you mentioned, you kind of revered the leaders. You said sir an awful lot. We weren't on first-name basis with our bosses. And you respected that they knew what was good for the company. They knew— you figured they knew what was good for you and so on. And I remember thinking, man, I can't wait until I get into a leadership role so I'll know everything too. And people will come and I'll have all the answers. And it's like, okay, when exactly is that going to happen?

Right. It never happens, Marc. We never have all of the answers. And that's another reality check for many leaders is we've got to put our egos to one side. I'd like to just demonstrate that this is how we have to lead today. We can't lead like this. And we definitely don't want to lead like this. This is the way we need to lead now.

Yeah.

And it's a big ask for many leaders to really understand what it means to know that you don't know everything. And that, by the way, I love this quote from Steve Jobs. He had many wonderful sayings. But this one is so apropos. He said, I don't hire smart people to tell them what to do. I hire smart people so they can tell me what to do. Think about that. And that's where we need to be.

And that's a whole different paradigm shift now. What do you think has happened? What's happened over the last few years that you think has caused that shift?

Well, I just think it's, you know, social media has definitely played a role in the sense that everybody can broadcast their own opinion and they can do it anytime they like. So, you know, people are really keen to do that. And I also think, as I mentioned before, just the way that the workforce has changed and how educated they are, that, you know, their paradigm for leadership is very different to For example, how mine was. So, it's just we have a voice and we've always had a voice. But the way the world is and technology, we can now access that technology to use our voice. So, I think that's been one of the fundamental shifts that we've seen.

Yeah, yeah. And so, when it came to your book, I love the title Leading in Real Time. Decision to write this book? What happened that made you go, wow, we need this information?

That's a really great question. I think, and I can't be anyone else except me, so I'll just tell you straight how it was. I believe that I had this aha moment that I was thinking about all of my clients throughout the pandemic and thinking about leaders, people I've worked with, and thinking about the importance of staying relevant. And then I realized that that really does apply to me as well. So I was on a mission to help leaders to stay relevant with all the change that's happening around them and how it was hitting me like a ton of bricks that, you know, I'm getting older too and I've got to look at my style of how I go about my business if I'm going to be relevant. We all made this huge shift learning technology very quickly if we chose to do so, or we could sit in a time warp just waiting for everything to just kind of wash over us, which was never going to happen. So I could relate to what my own clients were dealing with, and then I felt compelled to bring that into my writing. That was a real motivator for me.

Love it. Love it. And it's absolutely true what they say is that when you sit down and start writing a book, it's because there's a message inside of you that's just got to get out.

Yes, that's right. That's right.

I'd like to get into some essential traits of real-time leaders. And we'll get to that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star With a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, business operational excellence through the lens of live theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back. I am speaking with leadership expert and author of Leading in Real Time, Madame Michelle Ray. Michelle, when it comes to those kind of new to leadership, we have— before we connected, we talked a little bit about how the majority of people don't get trained in leadership.

Absolutely.

And people who get promoted into positions get promoted because maybe they were a great performer. And people thought, hey, you know what, John? You're such a good welder. Why don't you become a shop foreman and you could teach everybody else how to do it? And then, they become a leader and then they flounder. What myths do new leaders need to overcome today?

Well, I think first of all, just understanding that leadership is not about your title. And that's a lot of what I talk about in my first book, Lead Yourself First, that leadership is really more about your character. And I think that people get very excited when they get promoted into a leadership role or they take on a leadership role. And you have to really be clear about why you choose to become a leader. And it's fascinating when you talk to leaders about why they made that decision. And quite honestly, a lot of leaders chose to become leaders because, you know, there's a big promotion attached to it, higher remuneration. But really, there has to be way more to it if you are going to be successful. And first and foremost, you have to really love people because no matter how high-tech our world becomes, you've got to know how to connect and relate to other people. So that's why it doesn't really matter what your title on your business card might say. It's all about who you are that matters the most to your workforce and your team.

I love that. And I love this idea that you have to love people. And it's almost like you have to love people almost a little bit more than you love yourself.

Well, that's very true because I once had a leader and I wrote about this in my book who once came up to me after a presentation and said, well, Michelle, what if I don't like people? And it's like, Hmm. Well, tell me more about that. And then he started explaining to me, it wasn't that he didn't really like people. It was just that he was uncomfortable in being in a leadership role. And as you said a moment ago, people don't get any training. And he'd been thrown into this role when he was used to working on his own, going about his job, and didn't understand that there's a completely different set of skills that you need. to lead people as opposed to working with your technology or whatever it might be. Whatever you're doing in your day-to-day job, completely different set of skills.

Yes, yes. And in your book, you talk about 8 essential traits that real-time leaders must have. Could we delve into some of those? What are some of the traits that people should be kind of looking out Absolutely.

And this is a challenging one. Authenticity. And I could probably tie that into transparency as well. For some leaders, they don't know how far to go. Like, how much do you reveal about yourself? And as you also just said a moment ago, people just want to know that you're real. And they want to know that you're human and that you're relatable. And so, for some people, being authentic Well, I might say, well, if I'm my real self, you know, maybe that isn't the most attractive thing. But that's not necessarily what I mean. You've got to be the best version of you, and people will be drawn to you that way. When you are honest about making mistakes, honest about your own journey, and also admitting when you don't know, that's a very attractive thing. And it's even more so Today, more so today.

You hit the nail on the head. This idea that we don't have all the answers. Like, I can't tell you the very first time that I went into— I just started working at a new hotel and I was on contract. And I started going through and we had a problem. And I went to the staff and this is the first time that they heard a leader say, you know what? Maybe you need to help me solve this problem. Because I don't have all the answers. And they went, oh, you're the boss! What do you mean?

Right?

And all of a sudden, it's like all of a sudden, there was a shock. There was the— everybody was scared of the fact that here's a boss who just admitted he doesn't have all the answers. But then, the empowerment came through that we created a culture that we're all in this together and that we have to help solve these problems.

Exactly.

And I think one of the things that really is important is to, in addition to knowing that you don't have all the answers, is to know how to really tap into yourself and have the self-awareness. Now, I know it sounds very cliché. But one of the things I address early on in my book is the fact that leaders are so fixated on how are we going to drive change? How are we going to get people to buy into change? How are we going to keep up? How are we going to stay ahead of our competitors? And I say right at the beginning that the real issue isn't looking for the answers to all of those things. The real issue is understanding that it's a fixed mindset mentality that is at the root of all problems. So we need to know how to move our mindset from fixed to flexible before anything is going to change. So People don't necessarily have that awareness of their own biases, whether I'm talking about gender, whether I'm talking about culture, and how those interfere with the way that they run their team, their business. It's very, very subtle, but understanding yourself is the key to having success as a leader and being able to go, maybe the way that I'm operating isn't working and How ready am I to open my mind to what's actually happening?

Yeah. Are there any tools for somebody to be able to shake themselves out of that? Because I've talked to a lot of leaders before who they have a certain way of doing things. I've been running my business for 22 years, right? And they kind of physically put themselves or emotionally put themselves into a box. But they don't think that anything's wrong with them.

Yeah. Well, first of all, as I just said, I think the key is having the awareness. And then the second part of that would be having the willingness to admit what is working and what isn't. If you don't have those 2 things, no matter what ideas I might suggest, because I'm a big proponent of leadership development, because your leadership strategy is just as important as your business strategy. So, if you don't have that strategy to grow and educate yourself, and have that awareness that, you know, that's first and foremost the key, then nothing much is going to change. So, I think that's important. The other way that you can start to change yourself is to make sure that you connect with other people and connect with your team and ask them for their ideas, their suggestions, their input. And you'll be amazed at what you can learn from them. And obviously, when they look good, you will look good too.

Yeah, and I like this idea that we've had episodes where we talked about mentorship and coaching, where we solicit somebody from the outside in. And there's also organizations like Vistage in the States and Tech Canada here in Canada, where people can go face-to-face with their peers.

Yes.

And from that point on as well, you start creating a new benchmark on being able to open yourself up and have people who are at your level turn around and say, maybe you need to give your head a shake?

Well, you know, there are definitely aspects. I mean, hard skills, soft skills, you know, I'm not even a big fan of the word soft skills, Marc, because I think they're the essential skills. So, you know, for example, another trait of being a real-time leader is being an outstanding communicator. I mean, that's no surprise. And your interpersonal skills. Again, more important than ever is the ability to connect. And it is amazing to me how many leaders always like there's this default to, I don't have time. I've got so many things to do. Well, we all do. But the most important thing that you can do is to know how to connect with people and to make time for people. And that can save you a lot of heartache. It can help you with retaining great people. There are many benefits to making time for people and that should be at the top of your agenda. And stop worrying about the minutiae and get in front of people and connect with them. And that to me makes the world of difference.

Sure. Yeah, yeah. I've seen that time and time again where the corner office, I think the corner office now is pretty much a dead space where people just say, I'm just going to sit in my office and just do my thing from this corner office and rule from the roost, I think is gone. And nothing I think emphasizes that more than any episode of Undercover Boss, where either the boss goes out and all of a sudden is shocked at how the employees think about the company, or about him personally, or about their jobs, and so on. And this idea of being able to walk around and actually connect with the human beings that we have, that we've hired, I think is essential.

And imagine, and I think this is very confronting for a leader, but imagine hearing messages, learning more about being a great leader, recognizing your own shortcomings, and then being able to say to a team member, I've been giving this a lot of thought. And there are some about my own leadership style and some of the feedback I've been given recently. And I just want you to know that there are things I'm looking at to be better at what I do. Just that one sentence can make such a difference in the relationship. It doesn't take much and people will appreciate that about you. So, there's another trait there about humility.

Yes.

That gave me goosebumps as you were saying that. And I have a sneaking suspicion anybody watching this will also go, oh my goodness, that is powerful. This is amazing. Could you let people know how they can get in touch with you? Anybody who's watching this who says, oh my goodness, this is a gal that I need in my corner, how can they get hold of you?

Thank you, Marc. My website is michelleray.com. With my Aussie accent, sometimes people don't even hear the word Ray. I still have my Aussie accent, as you know. M-I-C-H-E-L-L-E-R-A-Y.com. And my contact info is there.

Thank you. Lovely. And I did put it in the show notes, so feel free if you're watching this, You can scroll down into the show notes and click on any of the links there to connect with Michelle. Michelle, could we talk a little bit about what it takes? You mentioned this word authenticity. How does one nurture these authentic connections? I mean, it's one thing to say that you have to connect with people. And it's not just about walking the shop floor and going, hey, yo.

Absolutely not.

What does it mean to authentically connect and how do we nurture some of these relationships?

Well, again, I think first you have to know where you are, where you are at in yourself. And people are used to interacting with you a certain way. So, when you run out of your shop, whether you're on the shop floor, whether you're in a factory, whether you're in an office, wherever you are, or even on a Zoom meeting or whatever the case may be, and all of a sudden you start acting differently, people are going to think, What are you on? Like, what are you doing? So it takes time. And that's what I would advocate is, is just, you know, recognizing that change, change in yourself can take time. So rather than rushing into trying to apply all of these, you know, asking more questions, stop telling people what to do, those kind of fundamental things is, is to just be aware, be aware, think about the conversations that you're going to have. Plan for those conversations and actually practice being that type of leader who is wanting to ask more and tell less. Just doing those simple things step by step and they can become a habit for change.

I know that there are some leaders out there who would be hearing this and saying, I have 400 employees. How the heck do you expect me to connect? Obviously, 400 employees means that you have a certain hierarchy. How does one start as top of the food chain? How does one start figuring out how to deliver?

Great question. I love this question. Well, there's a gentleman in my book that I wrote about. I think he has like 2,000 employees in total. Not all of them are in the same location. And I had the pleasure of working with this organization. Big company, and there you know the thing that struck me was the very moment I met this CEO. Like he was personable, he was smiling. The first event that we had done had been cancelled due to a snowstorm. This was just before the pandemic in Vancouver. It was January 2020, and he you know and I built a rapport with him and asked him if I could interview him for my book seven several months later, and. I also posed that question to him. His executive assistant had said to me, just check in with him and he'll tell you that he's constantly writing notes to people, sending out cards to people, personalizing his communication. And he was known for that. So despite the size of his workforce, he was making a point connecting with his own leadership, Finding out what was going on with their teams, shooting the breeze with people. Maybe sometimes it was unexpected, but he made it a priority. And that's why people were so drawn to him. And he was very personable because he knew it had to be the most important thing that he did. This is a company with very low turnover, highly unionized environment. And he was just brilliant at building those relationships one relationship at a time.

It just goes to show that the intentionality is more than your business strategic plan.

Yes. And without their support, he couldn't have a successful strategic plan. And that's why he was so brilliant and making a huge shift when the pandemic hit. Obviously, like many companies, they had to change direction to survive. So, he had a great team and they supported him and he supported them.

Did he ever tell you about what he did in order to adapt to COVID-19? Like, how did he leverage his team or how did the team step up?

I think it was— yes, he did. And I think it was just more about their approach to maintaining their client base and looking actually for new opportunities. When you mentioned at the outset about digital transformation or transformation and being ready for that, That was already part of their plan. And so, what they recognized that they needed to do was accelerate how they were going to bring that about. They already obviously had been successful in what they were doing using digital, making digital transformation a priority. But they also looked for new opportunities where they could do business differently because they were prepared. And that was part of their shift. So again, another lesson learned for many organizations. As I said, a lot of them not ready and don't have a clue about how to go about it.

Yes.

Even though we're well into the Fourth Industrial Revolution and we've been that way for 5 or 6 years now, as it's called, the Fourth Industrial Revolution. So interesting, isn't it?

It is. It is so interesting. And I had one of our colleagues on, Danielle Silverman, talking about the Titanic effect. About how we hold on to certain things. And it's like, yeah, and I can't tell you how many times I've gone into small businesses where they say, I just don't understand it. I started this business 15 years ago when we were so successful and we haven't changed anything. I don't understand what's different.

And I think my message exactly. And I think my message is there's several. Complacency is the enemy of success. And if you aren't ready to shift, then you risk irrelevance. And we've already heard of many examples of organizations that unfortunately, without being ready to shift, as I said, from fixed to flexible, they run the risk of becoming irrelevant much more quickly.

Yes, yes. And fizzling out. Right.

And exactly.

I mean, there are examples all over the place, right? We hear about somebody like Blockbuster, which at the time seemed to be indestructible, or Kodak, and so many different companies who kept on their path doing the same thing that they had done for decades. And because of that, they became irrelevant.

Yeah. And I think that again, because there were people in those 2 examples who definitely had ideas to shift the organization, but they weren't listening.

Yeah.

So, that's key. And I think just coming back to the point about the traits of being a real-time leader and why it's so important to be consistent and be trustworthy. These are some other aspects of it. Being a great listener and being the best version of yourself. I mean, I know again, very basic to hear that information. But we remember. We remember our encounters with our leaders. I remember them like they were yesterday. I remember, well, my first boss was my dad. So after him, when I got a real job, I still remember. And unfortunately, I didn't have such great role models. So it's, you know, these— this is still true today, that one negative experience can stay with you. You remember what those conversations were like. You remember what that person looked like. So we form— we, we create an impression, and we want that to be the best possible impression. that is going to leave a lasting imprint on people's minds and hearts too.

Love it! You're so right. As you were saying that, it's like right away, I flashed back to my very first manager and how I felt with him constantly. And if anything, I could credit him because I could look at him and say, I never ever want to be like Steve.

And I can remember 2 very different ones. I can remember one looking me in the eye when, you know, my first job in the 1980s that I got on my own. And this boss looked at me and said, you know, I don't have to tell you anything. And so, all these years later, I remember that conversation. And then I can contrast that with mentors and incredible leaders who were very intentional about asking me lots of questions to help me solve my own problem and trusted me to be able to do that.

Yeah.

So, there are some fundamental things, Marc. I think that in a radically changing world, how to drive success in a radically changing world, the subtitle of Leading in Real Time, there are some evergreen skills. But so much has changed. But there are some things that we always need to remember. And that's one of them.

Yeah. And to me, it just feels like it's just coming down to the power of being human.

Absolutely. Very, very true. I've got a chapter in my book called The Human Factor as well.

There you go.

That's right.

Michelle, this is amazing. We will be back with more of Michelle Ray right after this.

When you're delivering an important speech to a huge audience, it's easy to lose your place or go way over time. Give yourself an advantage with the Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app. No more checking your watch or calling for time. The Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app keeps you on track with easy-to-see timers, even changing color for visual prompts during your speech. And you can set audio cues to practice or set it to vibrate so you don't even have to look. Be the pro you know you are. Download the app at speakerpresentationtimer.com.

Welcome back. I hope you are getting tons of really great nuggets from Michelle. This is absolutely fantastic. And it is so refreshing to hear somebody willing to talk about kind of these traits and these aspects of leadership that are crucial, I think, to becoming a more human leader. One of the challenges that we see, and we see it in politics right now, we're seeing this idea of accountability in leadership. We're talking, we see credibility and you mentioned it. It's like when we talk badly to a person as a leader, That person's going to remember it. For us, it's just a— maybe it's a momentary blowout.

Yes.

But to the person we're talking to, they're going to remember this. And that lends to how our credibility is reflected. And when we stand up in front of the group and talk about our mission, and talk about our vision, and talk about our purpose, how can we increase what you call in your book the accountability and credibility Wow, I love that question.

Well, first of all, it comes back to something I don't believe I have said yet, which is what is real-time leadership? And real-time leadership is about understanding what is right in front of you. That's the simplest explanation. But to really grasp that, to really deeply understand what that means, that is also— it's also about knowing what the best course of action is in The moment. So let me give you an example of increasing your accountability and your credibility quotient. The CEO of Zoom, when Zoom were having all kinds of issues and breakdowns, and I think the most fundamental challenge that they had, if many of us can remember, during most of, or a fair bit of 2020, was they were getting Zoom bombers. Dropping into meetings. And that was causing a lot of angst, obviously, people crashing Zoom meetings that weren't meant to be there. And the CEO went public and told people that we know how this is such a big problem. And I want you to know that I am taking it on myself to apologize and to do everything humanly possible to rectify it. So, he didn't pull any punches. He didn't try to pretend it wasn't happening. He didn't make any excuses. He said, this is on us and we are going to get to the heart of the issue. And in my mind, when he did that, it increased his credibility quotient because credibility is something that we are constantly earning. And it's not something that you just have just because you're a CEO, coming back to my point earlier about titles. So, when you're an in-the-moment leader and you understand exactly what's going on and you're tuned into that and you take action that is going to rectify an issue, for example, as huge as that one was, then people are going to respect you for it. So, that's one thing is, again, admitting mistakes, admitting things happen that are outside of your control. And when you focus, Marc, on what's in your control, That is also one of the most powerful things you can do. You can control the type of leader that you are. You can create a great environment where people want to work. You can attract the best people based on that culture. All of those things are 100% within your control. That's where we want to spend our energy.

Love it! I love it because it is about what's inside here first.

Yes.

I love it. As people go through this, obviously leaders will make mistakes. And you talked about Zoom. Well, that was a platform issue. It was never anything intentional. I mean, really at the end of it, Zoom because of COVID-19, all of a sudden they had exponential growth that they just weren't ready for at the time. And having him stand up and say, We weren't ready. And taking on that accountability is one thing. When we talk about this idea of accountability of our own behavior, again, we're seeing this in politics, right? Where people get called out first, a behavior that they had.

And how much accountability, self-accountability should they publicly Oh, well, I guess it would depend on the situation. That's why it's really good to know yourself, to check in with other people who know you very well in those kinds of circumstances. And in terms of how much you might disclose or not disclose, if that's what you mean. But I think people really expect that in a leader. They expect them to take ownership because leaders build leaders. And leaders build leaders by taking the lead and owning up to whether something hasn't gone the way that they thought it would. And I think that's so important. So, we need to take ownership. And I believe the word accountability gets a bad rap, Marc. I think it needs to be seen as a positive. And that's what it is. We use the word empowerment a lot. But really what that means is it means giving somebody ownership so that they can grow. And that's not about— delegation isn't abdication. It's not about saying, hey, you're the nearest warm body and I want to give you this dirty job to do because I don't want to do it.

Love that. That is a quote that everybody here should tweet. Delegation is not abdication.

Yes, exactly.

That is a tweetable phrase. Michelle, this is absolutely fantastic. Are there any cautionaries that we should be considering when people are thinking about changing how they start looking at their own leadership? And anything they should be aware of as a cautionary?

Well, I think it's really about, as I said, just being aware of what am I doing right now that is meaningful. and that is relevant. And if there are certain practices that maybe don't quite fit right now, I think when you can see that in your organization and in yourself, that's going to help you to be more of a real-time leader. So that would be one thing. And just knowing that, again, change is a constant and we're constantly needing to adapt. And I think if anything, what we also have learned is the importance of being able to anticipate. So as a very wise radio commentator in Australia who was on the airwaves when I was growing up and my first foray into work was in the media industry in radio and television, this fellow used to say, expect the unexpected. So anticipating is a really great trait to hone rather than being that follower, being ahead of the curve. so to speak, is being able to anticipate as much as possible. And that's a big difference between leading in a crisis over which you have no control. When crises occur, it's something you didn't expect. But when you are able to focus on, again, what you, what you can control, that is a wonderful trait to have as a leader. Anticipate as much as possible.

And I think COVID-19 has taught us that now anything is possible.

Yes. And I describe it as the moment where, and I mentioned this in my book too, Marc, the present and the future collided.

There you go. Wow.

And all we've got is now.

Yeah, and all we have is now. As we wrap up—

That's why we need to lead in real time.

As we wrap up, do you have any last Ah, wow.

Last thoughts. I, I just— I'm very passionate about helping people to, to respond to new realities. And when we are ready to respond, it means that we are ready to answer the call. And in the words of the famous fellow who is still the executive producer of Saturday Night Live. Lorne Michaels once said, we don't start the show because we're ready. We start the show because it's 11:30. Wow. There you go.

Michelle, this has been so fabulous. I am so thankful that we could have our time together. I know how incredibly busy You are since the launch of your book. And I cannot thank you enough for making time for us today.

Such a pleasure, Marc. If anybody wants more, I'm going to be online delivering a webinar tomorrow. And I can make that link available to you, Marc. And if people want to attend, it's completely complimentary to get more of Leading in Real Time. And to go to Amazon and buy my book.

And so, your book is available on Amazon. I put the link in the show notes. But they can also go to your website to buy it as well, can't they?

They can. They can. This is such a critical time for any author when you're in that pre-launch phase. The book is going to be officially available. It is available now. It'll be released on the 23rd. So, if people buy it, buy it through Amazon or any online retailer, it really helps.

Love it. This has been so amazing, Michelle. Again, thank you so much for your time today.

Such a pleasure, Marc. Thanks for having me.

That's all the time that we have for today. I really appreciate you being here as well to take in this episode. Michelle's passion, knowledge, and expertise are by far what makes her stand out. As always, my offer stands. If you would like A complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your team, please feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetme.so/MarcHaine. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to our feed? And keep in mind that the Audacious Leaders Summit is coming up in November. Put that in your calendar and you can go to the audaciousleaderssummit.com to get some more information. It has been my pleasure to bring you this episode. It has been my absolute pleasure to host Michelle Ray on some fabulous, fabulous stuff that she's all about. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.