Making Sense of the People Puzzle To Grow Your Business with JJ Brun

I often joke about how easy businesses would be if it weren't for all the people. Our people are the biggest variable to the success of our business or to the problems within our business. If we aren't communicating clearly, our teams start to clash and it can really affect the business. Imagine, imagine being able to decode those intricate dynamics turn every challenge into an opportunity, and elevate your team's synergy to levels that you have never experienced. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode. I am your host, customer and employee experience strategist, Marc Haine. Thank you for doing me the favor of being present today. I should say thank you for doing you the favor of joining me today because we have an extremely amazing guest today. My guest for this episode is the retired spy, JJ Brun. We'll put a spotlight on ways to understand, engage, and leverage your team's interpersonal skill sets. For every leader, entrepreneur, and visionary out there, this could possibly be the game changer that you've been waiting for. My one ask for you today is that if you know somebody who could use this information, please share the link to this episode. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and make sure that you subscribe to this podcast? By subscribing, you'll get first notification when I drop brand new episodes. You know, this past weekend I had my roof redone. So here's a huge shout out to Rain Mountain Contracting. They did the work. They're here in Edmonton and they were absolutely amazing. I had some great discussions with Aaron, who is the owner, and we were talking about the challenge of finding the right people to do the work. During his peak season of the summer, he had 2 crews working full time. And the number one issue that he had were—

People.

People problems. Miscommunications, productivity, tardiness, sloppiness. Aaron has better days when he has the right people on the right job, doing the right task with the right mindset. So that brings us to our Question of the Day. When have you had what seems like a mismatch within your team? That's basically the wrong person doing the wrong job with the wrong mindset. Again, I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and be part of our discussion. There is a pressing need for leaders and managers to comprehend the nuances of human behavior. It helps them communicate effectively and fosters a more cohesive team environment. When those elements aren't in sync, businesses can experience stagnant growth, decreased morale, and missed opportunities. My guest today is nothing short of a game changer in the realm of understanding human behavior and human dynamics. JJ Brun has traded in his spy gadgets for the art of human connections. With 3 sparkling awards under his belt, best-selling pages filled with wisdom, and the title of DiSC Trainer of Trainers, I am thrilled to have the James Bond of human behavior dynamics and effective communication with us today. From the intense landscape of the Canadian Armed Forces Intelligence Branch to the front lines of training in human behavior, he is the secret weapon that every organization wished they had in their back pocket. JJ, welcome to the show. It's so great to have you.

Thank you, Marc.

What a pleasure.

Never been introduced as the James Bond of human behavior.

You know, there's a first time for everything.

First name does start with a J. Second name starts with a B. So my name is Brun. Jean Brun.

Yeah.

Yeah. It could be James Bond.

Makes you think. But before we get too deep, too deep in today's topic, Could you tell us a little bit about how you serve your clients?

For us, it's really every time we meet a client, we are at a disadvantage because I do not know the 3 Ps. And I will often share that with the client that I don't know your people, I don't know your problems, and I don't know your protocols of how you go about doing business. And if I could be provided with that information, I can see if I'm a good fit for that client. And quite often it is a people issue. Seldom do they also follow their procedures. But it's like you said at the beginning of not having the right person in the right role does provide some character-building moments for the client. So for me, it's providing them with an opportunity to decode one's preferred communication style, or what I call decoding human capital. Everyone has a human capital waiting to be discovered. Because your human capital will provide you your assets, as in your strengths, because your strengths will carry you. Your lowest traits, your lowest talents should concern you. Not that you need to become, but, you know, in case you have to do, you are able to go and visit a certain quadrant. So for me, yes, I am very much a practitioner of the 4 temperament model of human behavior, also known as the DISC model.

Mm-hmm.

So for people in the corporate lane, you will often find yourself at a disadvantage in business and even in your personal life if you do not have a model of reference. So I came to recognize that early on in the military when I was serving. And then when I opted to, you know what, after 20 years, it's time for me to diversify. It's time for me to start my own training company. So I do more work now for the Canadian government outside the usual uniform than when I was wearing the uniform. But you are at a disadvantage. Even as a parent parenting your child, you should parent your child according to how they're wired. Well, how do you know how they're wired? Well, that's by decoding one's preferred communication style, decoding their human capital. So I've simplified the information for application.

Yeah.

I go into a quick way for them to understand how to do Or how to decode one's preferred communication style by identifying the 2 Ps. There's always a pace perspective when you're interacting with people. And there's always a preferred priority perspective. So there's a preference in the pace, fast-paced or slower-paced. We have a preference. And we do have a preference towards task accomplishing, doing things, or towards leaning towards people interacting, socializing with them. One is not better or worse. It is Just different.

Different.

Yep. That we have all four of these.

I have to ask you before we get super deep into the episode today, how did you become the quote unquote retired spy?

Yeah, I never wanted to be the retired spy. My military career is I started with the Royal 22nd Regiment, Le Royal 22e. So that's the infantry regiment up in Quebec City, and I did five years in the combat arms, and then. I was very hard on my body and my knees because I have a total of 3 knee surgeries, a major back surgery, and I knew I couldn't finish if I just stayed in the infantry, the combat arms. So I needed to change trades. And the only thing that really interested me was the intelligence branch. I thought that was cool, sexy, and exclusive. And I was drawn to that. And I got accepted and then spent 15 years within the intelligence branch. In the last ten years is where I specialize in the field of human intelligence. There was no big strategic plan; it's more of I was volunteered to go to Bosnia, so to becoming a what we call a contact handler. So a contact handler is a person where he or she sent into a hostile environment, where he or she has to cultivate sources within that environment, determine their intention, modify their behaviors without using any. Jedi mind tricks. Really, it's all about being able to connect with people by design and not by chance so that they become an informant for you. And at the end, I had over 100 eyeballs working for me or assisting me or getting a sense of what's happening on the terrain so that the commanding officer could make an informed decision as to where to allocate the resources. So, within the intelligence community, The intelligence branch, there's many different collecting platforms. Imagery intelligence, we've seen the James Bond movie, the satellite image, right? Signals intelligence, oh yeah, we've seen those. Yes, we can listen to your phone conversation. That's another collecting platform. Acoustic intelligence, yes, we know when there's a submarine that just starts their engine, right? Because it emits a certain sound wave. But for me, where I specialized in was—

What?

Human intelligence, and that's my sort of like my claim to fame being the first one selected for contact handling since the Second World War. So in the last five years of my career, I became a staff officer. So I've done both the blue collar and the white collar in regards to that collecting platform. And after twenty years, I felt that I could do more outside, and that's where I. I decided to, you know what, thank you very much for the 20 years. There's always been an entrepreneurial side to me. And this year, we're celebrating 25 years at DHC Training Solutions. DHC stands for Decoding Human Capital. So training solutions is what we provide. We're all about equipping people for works of service. Now, what's interesting is that I never wanted to be the retired spy and interpersonal skill sets, a communication expert. World-renowned speaker, but your brand is what people say it is. And I kept on being introduced when we had a networking event and somebody, hey, who's who's that person you were talking to? Oh, that's JJ. He used to be a spy. Oh, that's JJ. He's a former operative. Oh, that's JJ. You know what? I'd be careful if I was you because like he's a he's like that that James Bond type of guy. So your brand is what people say it is, and I kept on being branded as JJ the retired spy, and. You know what? After eight years of trying to shy away from it, I decided to accept the brand because it's easy to remember the retired spy.

Right.

Then DHTrainingSolutions.com.

Right.

They just remember it. Even my name, JJ, I got branded because my formal name, Marc, it's Jean Jacques Joseph Brun.

Whoa!

Jean is my name. Jacques, that's my godfather's name. Joseph, yeah, because we had only one church in our village, Roman Catholic, so you get the Joseph attached to your name. But when I was working overseas, we had anywhere from 5 to 7 different nationalities at the safe house. And one day I was alone in the operation room and a British colleague came in and he sat down and then he needed a stapler and I had one on my side of the desk and he goes, hi, Jay Jay. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. I connected the dots. There's nobody else in the room. He must be talking to me. And I answered. Boom. I got branded.

Which is much better than Gene Jack, I have to say, because Gene Jack doesn't—

it's not good. Well, they, they, at one point, it's funny you say that, but they were actually saying that.

I bet. Hey, Gene Jack.

And they thought they were bilingual. Yeah. But when they, when, when my British colleagues said, hi, Jay Jay. And I answered and then it became JJ. Then everybody else that I worked with, they liked that because it's easy to remember. It's easy to spell. Even all of the contacts, those that I was handling, the case that I was handling, they kind of like it because it's easy to remember JJ and it's just 2 letters.

Right.

So, it actually turned into a blessing.

But you know what's interesting about this? It's a great story because This is something that happens in businesses about acceptable behavior, right? No, at no time did anybody else ever call you JJ except for this one particular person. Now that he's called you JJ, everybody saw how well you took it and they thought, oh, well, that gives me permission to call him JJ as well. And so it's, it's gonna be interesting because as we go through today's episode, I think this idea of human behavior is really gonna be peeling back this onion and we're gonna be exposing some of it. Is it like I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of small to medium-sized businesses? Is it me or are business leaders now more challenged than ever with communication breakdown, morale issues, conflicts, infighting? Are you seeing a lot of this? Is that a lot of the complaints you're seeing from your clients as well?

Oh, absolutely! I've been seeing this for 25 years. And I've been in business for 25 years as in It's a good business.

What's the root cause of this? Because I've been in environments where I've seen completely the polar opposites where things really work really well. People are really good communicators. But in other ones, you have this constant clash of personalities and intentions and personal agendas and distrust and so on. So, what's the root cause of what's creating some of this dynamic?

Lack of awareness. I believe there are 4 levels of awareness. And if you really want to, as a business owner, thrive, you need to be made first aware of the 4 levels of awareness. The first one is environmental awareness. I define environmental awareness as a moment in time where you discover or experience something new. So, when I was sent to the UK on my prisoner handling and tactical questioning course, my interrogator course, That was environmental awareness. I had no clue of what this course is going to be on, except for interrogation. In the first hour, I was stripped naked, thrown into a cell, and interrogated. That was not on the agenda. All I heard is, who wants to go to the UK? So that's environmental awareness. We always go through environmental awareness. That's a moment in time where you discover and experience something new. The second phase will be Situational awareness. That is a moment in time where you get to apply what you've discovered and experienced in the environmental awareness. So as a contact handler, okay, I was trained over in the UK as a contact handler. I deployed overseas to Bosnia-Herzegovina, and after 3 days I made it to the safe house. And this is where I had the opportunity to apply everything that I learned at spy school. In regards to becoming an effective contact handler. So that's situational awareness. And quite often in business, people go to environmental awareness, they learn something new, they go back to the work environment, that situational awareness. Oh, I need some more training. Okay, got back. Oh, I need to go to work. I need some more training. And they keep on looping and looping and looping in that area. That's what I call a TED moment, temporary enthusiasm disorder. Because they don't have self-awareness. See, self-awareness is how— is a moment in time where you discover your strengths and your blind spots so that you can protect yourself from yourself in times of need. Anyone that succeeds in their business that does not have that human factor, that human dynamic awareness, understanding their strengths, their blind spots, will often find themselves at a disadvantage. With that self-awareness, you can move to the 4th level, the highest level, which is the legacy awareness. And I would define legacy awareness as a moment in time where everything you've invested in your life outlives your life. So if you're going to build a company, you want it to thrive even after you've gone, that you've made a difference in people's lives. So for me, it is awareness. And there's 4 levels of awareness that's required. And I've seldom seen— An effective owner not having a strong sense of self because then he can surround himself with his blind spots. So, if he's good in this area, well, okay, who can counter and correct the blind spot? Oh, he's good at— in this area? Okay. Well, who can assist in the other area? We all have our strengths. We all have our areas of growth. Quite often, law enforcement that I work with, they'll say strengths and weaknesses. And I know the HR population does not like the strengths or weak— the word weaknesses. Well, we all have our good days and we all have our bad days. We all have our days that we're grounded and we all have our days that we are ungrounded. So we have our good days, we have our bad days. But it's predictable. It is predictable because with a model of reference, you can look at someone having a good day and you can predict What it looks like on a bad day, which means that you can give that person grace when they are living on a in a bad day because you understand they're just having a bad day. My I taught this model to my daughter when she was eight years old to protect her from bullying at school. I taught her the four temperament model of human behavior.

That's awesome.

You tell environment Bosnia Herzegovina. To really apply this and then come back home and apply it into my own environment at home and in my business. So one day, my daughter's walking back from school, and her best friend is on the other side of the road. And you can tell; you can tell by just looking at their body language, their phys. You could tell that they had a fight, right? They're walking in, and then Michael—that's the name of my daughter—Michael comes in and. And we're looking at her, Julie and I, and we're saying, oh, Mickey, are you okay? Did you and Melissa have a fight? To which she was able to say, oh, Dad, it's okay. Her D— and then she was referring to the D trait, dominant, direct, demanding, decisive, which for Melissa was— that was her friend, was still her friend. Oh, her D trait's out of control. She'll be fine tomorrow. Like, oh my gosh, she didn't take ownership of it. She left it to the other person. Because when she did the assessment, there's a self-assessment that you can do for a child. And the report gives you 1/3 of the reports for you as the parent. 1/3 is for the child and 1/3 is for the school teacher. So the 1/3 for the child is self-esteem, self-worth increases in the child because the child sees that they're unique. They're not in competition. There's nothing wrong with them. And they're wired a certain way and it even provides devotional directions for that child. The second third of the report, which is what I wanted because I was afraid that I was going to raise my child as a sergeant major, a drill sergeant. I didn't want to be that person. We've always heard those worst stories in the news. And that report told me how to parent to the traits of my child. Oh my gosh, that was like gold. And then the last third of the report is for the schoolteacher. And we would always photocopy the last part of the report and give that to her teachers at the beginning of the year so they would know how to teach to her traits. And then they would look at my daughter and look at the report, look at me, look at my daughter, look at the report, look at me, and, where did you get these? Because they wanted reports for every kid in the room.

Yeah.

Well, that's my human capital. That's my investment. I'm just giving you everything that you need to know in order to get the best out of this student for She will not be your problem child.

Lovely.

So, it's along as in everything that I've done in the corporate applies in the personal life. As in, if you don't have a model of reference in business or in your personal life, you'll find yourself at a disadvantage of having more life character-building moments, difficulties working with people. But when they have awareness, when you increase their level of awareness, this is saying that Dr. Robert A. Rohm, Dr. Robert Rome. I don't know why I remembered his middle name, A. Dr. Rome, the quote goes this way. You cannot beware. You cannot beware of something until you're first made aware. And I like that because that's exactly true. As in, we need to have awareness. Increased self-awareness helps us. So then when I started discerning this in my military career, I just saw that there was 4 different levels.

Right.

There's one that we always go through, the environment situation. We get a chance to apply it. It doesn't work. We tend to go back down to environment and go back to situation. It doesn't work. We go back and we keep looping and looping. But until you've actually discovered yourself, like taking an audit and identifying because I think the last count, there's over 100 of these behavioral tools out there, Marc.

Yes.

That people can use. StrengthsFinder, the NEO, the MMPI, The Benco, the Bird model, the Taintain model. There's just so many models out there. Enneagram, Myers-Briggs.

Tons.

They're all designed for specific applications. There's nothing wrong with those models. I would advocate pick one and master it. Put in the hours and use that as a frame of reference to help build your and grow your business so that you can recruit the right people. By doing a role assessment. So there's a client in the States. That's exactly what we've assisted them to do. And they hire a lot of people and they had a lot of turnover. And I said, well, have you ever done a role assessment on the position that you're looking to hire? And they were like, a what? Well, a role assessment. What do you mean? So I gave them an example. If we were going to look at hiring a brain surgeon, I need 3 people to do a questionnaire. I need somebody that's in charge of the brain surgeon. I need the brain surgeon that you want to model, like your number, like that's the traits that you're looking for. And I need somebody that supports the brain surgeon. And they're going to do a questionnaire. And then from there, we're going to have 3 composites. I'm going to put them together and we're going to see the blend that you're looking for. And then from there, you'll know exactly how to script or how to write your job description or your marketing piece. It becomes a behavioral-based marketing. strategy so that you attract exactly that style blend for that job interview. And that company's turnover dramatically reduced because they knew exactly what they were looking for. And it's duplicatable and teachable.

Yeah. And so, what I like about that model though is that it also tells you, it gives you parameters by you can look at that model and say, what am I willing to compromise? What's a non-negotiable in each one of those 3 areas? And what is something that I can pivot with so that you don't have to be so hard-nosed about the outcome? Does that work or am I off base?

No, the model does provide you with options. I'll give you another example. There's a client that they can only recruit internally. And the model looks at there's a persona that's more direct, a persona that's more inspiring, a persona that's more supportive, and a persona that's more Cautious. So outgoing, reserve, task, and people. So there's 4 main quadrants. So these are the 4 main traits: dominant, direct, demanding; inspiring, influencing, inducing; supportive, shy, sensitive; cautious, calculating, conscientious. Each of these personas prefer that you would communicate to them in a different Form. So, here are the 4 legal F words to better communicate with people. Some personas want you to be firm. Others want you to be fun. Some want you to be more friendly. And others want to be more— you want to be more factual when connecting with people matters. So, by decoding one's preferred communication style, you know that I need them to say the same thing in 4 different ways: in a firm, fun, friendly, or factual matter. So, you need to decode before you show. Before you show a product, a service, an opportunity, you need to decode one's preferred communication style. And once you have that, then you can speak to their preferred language by simply saying the same thing in 4 different ways.

I love that.

So, the model itself has a simplicity towards it, yet it can go in greater depth. As in, yes, There's 4 quadrants. There's 41 style blends. So we're looking at a blend combination. Oh, and based on the questionnaire, quite often will be anywhere from 19,000 to 20,000 possibilities of intensities. So I can go in depth. You know, I can be on the surface of this. I know there's 41 style blends. And then because I train trainers, it's a model that's duplicatable. So it's a great tool. One client, so that the role was classified, they wanted that person at the beginning do a supportive role. Then at the end, they needed that person to be promoted to a more technical aspect. And at the end, they wanted that person to be in charge of the whole unit. So at the beginning, they want an S-style blend of personality, but at the end, they wanted that person to become a D. personality, which is completely opposite. It's like, hmm. So we looked at, well, maybe you're looking for a blend of a CDS style blend or a CSD style blend or a DSC style. And we provided them with some options because they were looking for a certain blend. But if they're going to recruit on one and then think that person is going to change their stripes, to something else at the end, it's going to, you know, it's called turnover. So, by having a stop blend strategy, that person to this day is still in that position. So, yeah, the position was classified within the intelligence community as this organization, and they couldn't promote outside. They can only promote internally. I did not need to know the exact responsibility. I just needed to have the people that oversee the role, to be part of the process or the procedure. Here's the thing that I like to say to people. When communications breaks down, and it will, blame the process, not the people.

Oh, I love that. It takes the whole onus off the finger pointing because I have a joke that when you're pointing a finger, you're pointing one finger at one person and 3 fingers at yourself. I, you know, I'm loving this because there's a lot of applications to the business here. In case somebody wants to get ahold of you, this is like, I mean, what you're talking about can seem really overwhelming. If somebody wants to get ahold of you to discuss this application for them, how can they reach you?

Oh, theretiredspy.com. It's as simple as that.

So easy.

Because as soon as you go to that website, you can book a complimentary 30-minute call. You'll see my calendar.

Love it!

You can see it right there. And then, we can have that conversation. Well, not leftover time but quality time by booking it on our calendar. Then, we'll take 30 minutes. If it takes more, then that's fine.

I love it.

That's not a problem.

I love it. I'd like to get into how we can leverage this information to present new ideas and getting buy-in, especially when change is difficult. And we'll get to that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or Or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with the new book Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back! I am speaking with the retired spy, Jean-Jacques Brun. We're having a good, great conversation. A lot of— I hope that you are getting ready to rewatch this episode because JJ has dropped an awful lot of really valuable information along the lines of the 4 awarenesses that we need and the 4 Fs of that communication style and that sort of thing. I know that you use a parable of the pencil as a metaphor. Can you dive a little bit into that?

Yeah, let me see if I have one. It's a simple instrument, right? So, I don't know if you've ever seen one of these little things. But this is known as the parable of the pencil. So, the manufacturer, the creator, the inventor of this pencil, before he sends out the pencil, the parable says that Shares that there's 3 things— 4 things you need to learn before you can be effective as a pencil. Number 1, before you can be usable as a pencil, you must first be willing to be placed into somebody else's hand. You cannot be usable unless you are willing to be placed into somebody else's hand. Number 2, in your life as a pencil, you're going to go through some sharpening, a lot of sharpening. I'm not going to hide it. It's going to hurt you. Every sharpening that you're going to go through is going to hurt. Let me encourage you that you're gonna be better because of the sharpening in your life as a pencil. Now, in your life as a pencil, you're also, number 3, are going to make mistakes. I know. That's why I placed an eraser at the end. Number 4, your true core value is not found on the outside. It's not your shape. It's not your size. It's not your color. It's what I placed inside of you that you'll find your true core value. Your value is found on the inside, not on the outside. And number 5, and the one that's the most important one, the creator, the inventor, the manufacturer of this pencil says, you were designed, created, and invented for one thing and one thing only. And that's to leave your mark on every surface you come in contact with.

I love that.

So, those 5 lessons, the application for this as an entrepreneur, as a business owner, Right? Or if you're going to be doing some training and some coaching to your staff, number one, are you teachable?

Yeah.

If you're not teachable, you can't do anything with them. Hey, are you willing to go through the pain of learning a new job, a new skill set, and failing and getting back up and failing, getting back up? Are you willing to go through those character-building moments? Because you're going to be better because of all the character-building moments. You should embrace those Mistakes and learn from them and grow. Hey, you're going to make mistakes? Yeah. You've got the right to start over with the information you have today. Your past does not dictate your future. Your past does prepare you for your future as you move ahead. Number 4, it's not the outside. It's what's on the inside. So, when you're doing a behavioral-based approach like the model of human behavior, It looks at the traits that are inside of us, not on the outside, because they're the true core value. And you were designed, created, and invented for one thing and one thing only. You're not here by accident. You're here to leave your mark on every surface you come in contact with, to make a difference in other people's lives. And the more that you can invest in others, the more it leaves a mark.

I love that. And, you know, what's interesting about that too is that last metaphor about leaving a mark. It could be a good mark or it could be a really negative mark. And you have that stress.

Well, you know, the model does not evaluate on good and bad. As in, you can use it for good. You can use it for bad.

Sure.

It's like, it's— that's a—

Yeah.

It doesn't—

That's brilliant. Great metaphor. We were talking before the break. We were talking about, of course, this whole idea of leveraging what you— this idea of the DiSC model within the confines of our businesses. I do know that we are in an era of unprecedented change. It didn't start with COVID But COVID was really a catalyst for showing us how unpredictable the world is. How can we leverage what we've been talking about today in helping people adapt to change, being able to get buy-in on change, even the way maybe that we might propose a change?

Change is going to happen. It evolves. You can't stop it from from happening. Just driving, I live in Gatineau and just driving to Ottawa, which is where I'm 10 kilometers from the downtown, there's all these skyscrapers that they're building. They're updating the roads. They're putting new buildings. They're just changing the whole landscape. Change is going to happen. It's how you get to either receive or resist this change. Based on your persona, on your preferred communication style, on your temperament style. People either receive or resist change. During COVID one thing that I was working with a client and he kept on bringing the fact that there was nothing on goal setting based on personalities. And he kept on whining and whining and whining. And he was not really doing his coaching session or the work that he was supposed to do in our coaching. And I said, well, do you want to keep on talking about this or do you want to do something about this? And he said, well, I want to do something about this. All right. So, let's reverse engineer because that's how my brain works. And then, at the end, I created this, Goal Setting by Personality Styles. So, we did our research and we studied and we looked at just like change, same principle in here. And based on the personas, How do you receive change, or how do you receive goal setting? So there's a certain persona. So that's the D style, that persona that tends to be more outgoing and task-oriented. It came out that, oh, goal setting or change, that's energizing. It's invigorating. It's success-oriented. It's refreshing. It's exhilarating. It's powerful. It's purposeful. That's what came out of the research. Wow. So then we looked at another persona that's more outgoing, yet people-oriented. That's the I persona. And well, what came out from them? They said, well, goal setting and change. I don't know. They go with what's popular. So they like that because it's popular. It's exciting. It's being happy-oriented, stimulating, thrilling, electrifying, and fun activities and treasure hunt. And so they were excited about this. It's like, wow, we've got something. So then we went to the S persona, that persona that's more reserved and People-oriented. And then, when we introduced the word goal setting and change, this is what came out. Stressful, demanding, difficult, traumatic, frustrating, pressure to perform activities due to timelines, fearful. And it's like, how could that be? See, that happens to be my spouse. That happens to be the style of my wife. See, I'm more on that D side of things and she's more on the S side of things. And it's like, wow, that's interesting. I wonder what the reserved and the task-oriented— what? Well, so we did the research there. And they said in regards to change or in regards to goal setting, hesitant, focus on procedures versus goal, endless process due to their perfectionism. Skepticism. Complicated. So, we saw a pattern and it applies in goal setting, but it also applies, Marc, in change. That there's 2 personas that seems to be more, let's go, let's embrace, and let's just go and do. And they're less challenged by, you know, or they don't have a way to see. But on the reserve side, They're a little bit more hesitant. They're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So, it's not comfortable. And there's a little bit more pushback. It's not that they can't change because they have a different mindset. And this is what I mean by mindset. That D persona that I talked to you at the beginning, dominant, direct, demanding, their mindset tends to be, what? What are we doing? What's going on? What's up? That's pretty much What am I going to get out of this? So, everything starts with the what. On the people side, outgoing and people, they think more in terms of who. Who's doing this? Who's going to be there? Who am I going to see? Who's going to see me? They're all about the who. But on the S-style blend, and this is where sometimes it takes a little bit more, they're all about the how. How are we going to implement change? How are we going to do this? How are we going to work more effectively as a team? If somebody doesn't want to buy in, they are really focused on the how. That's their mindset. They're wired for that. But on the other side of the reserve, the task side, their mindset is more on why. Why do we need to change? Why can't we stay the way it was? Why do we have to go back to the work environment and cubicle? Why, why, why? So, there are different personas that think differently. What, who, how, and why. So, when it comes to change, it's not that they can't change. It's that their mindset goes into needing that information in order to embrace change.

Hmm.

So, it might require more time. When I'm working with a client and I provide 3 options, I know the D and the I can answer me quickly. But the S and the C, they need to think things through. Not a problem.

And so you have to build that into your process.

Then it's just like, would it be okay if I follow up with you in the next 48 hours so that you have a little bit more time to think things through and come up with some questions that pops up?

If you give me 48 hours, I'm going to forget what the question was.

And it's just different, right? So, And if you didn't have that model of reference, you'd look at people and say, why can't you be normal?

Yeah.

Like me.

Normal is a setting on a dryer. And we start to label, characterize, and pigeonhole. See, the model itself, it was designed by William Moulton Marston. And he's also the forefather, pioneered the polygraph. So, because I do training in that area, in physiology and body language, So I kind of like that, the fact that I'm better at reading body language because I have the model of reference, because I have the Four Temperament model, because they will project a certain way. And if you didn't have a model reference, you may think that the person is embellishing or lying or deceiving you when in fact they're just communicating based on how they're wired. You know, it's just different. From an S perspective, a D persona may come across as yelling. at them. And they're not. They're just talking loudly because that's how they tend to communicate. So it does provide a lot of opportunities to avoid the misunderstanding because we tend to label what we don't understand.

Because it's easier to do that, right? Because it defers blame from ourselves. It's not my fault. It's not my fault that they're slow. It's not my fault that they're super aggressive, or it's not my— right? For people who are taking this in and realizing that there's this mechanism out there that they could leverage, Do you have any cautionaries about stepping into this realm? And the reason why I focus on cautionaries a little bit is I do believe there are a lot of managers out there who are band-aiders. They're looking for the next quick fix or the next thing that they can make the policy of the month. What kind of cautionaries would you have for anybody wanting to implement this style of assessments?

Well, you have to be willing to invest in the long term because What I like about this model, it's a force multiplier. It's the same language that can be applied in 50 layers within your business. You can apply it in regards to recruiting. You can apply it in regards to training. You can apply it in regards to leadership, team building, interaction dynamics, presenting, selling with style, showing to close. It's the same model applied in 50 different ways. It is a force multiplier. Other behavioral tools out there is basically a one layer. Like if you take the BIRD model, well, the BIRD model was not designed for multiple applications. The BIRD model was designed really to have a conversation in regards to identifying to a certain persona. Okay, you're an eagle. You're a parakeet or a pea. Yeah, parakeet. You're a dove or you're an owl. Well, that's dangerous when you're using animals because you also have the definition of that animal that comes to your mind. Oh, an owl. Well, everybody wants to have wisdom. Owl is wisdom. It's sage. Well, it depends upon which culture because in Lebanon, an owl has a negative connotation. See, so you have to be careful in regards to the model that you want to use. Why I like the 4 temperament model of human behavior because it's just a letter. It's a color that characterizes the trait, a symbol that characterizes the trait. A letter that characterizes the trait. You're not a letter. You're not a symbol. You're not a color. You're a beautiful blend of all 4 of these traits to a lesser or greater degree. There's nothing wrong with you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with you. We just have tendencies. And I like the fact that the model is an observable model, as in you can actually observe the traits in print. You're looking at our politicians. You cannot Not communicate. They can be scripted. They can prepare. They do all of this, right? But it's just a matter of time, right? As in, it just what really goes to the heart of the matter is your ability to ask effective questions. What made me different than all the other operatives in Bosnia is that I'm a double dose of task. I don't have these people skills. That's a learned skill that I had to learn. I learned the 4-Component Model of Human Behavior so that I can say the same thing in 4 different ways. I represent 10% of the general population. So, Dr. Rohm, back in 1999, a defining moment in my life, said to me, JJ, let me show you how you can annoy 90% of the general population just by being yourself. He had my attention because I'm not everyone's cup of tea. I knew that in the military. I knew that in the corporate. I'm not everyone's cup of tea, but I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing— I'm making a difference. But then he was— but what I got from that is that I'm leaving a lot of money, a lot of opportunities on the table.

Right.

Because I'm not speaking their language. And then he said, would you be willing, JJ? That's a personal choice. Would you be willing to learn to say the same thing in a different way? So, I didn't feel that he was trying to change me.

Yeah.

Basically, he was saying, Can I help you to get you more results? If I could show you how to get better results, would that be okay? And I'm like, yes.

That's like being the guy to go up to the guy, can I show you how to sharpen your saw to make your tools better? I've enjoyed this conversation immensely. And I think that we could go on for hours digging deeper into this. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today? Because I do know like this whole model, if managers could leverage it better, they would have better communication skills within their team. But as we wrap up, any last thoughts?

Well, I would encourage them to go to theretiredspy.com and go, I think the first page, there may be a little pop-up window or you can go completely on the bottom, but you'll find the 10 most effective feel-good icebreaking questions. Because in the next month, we're going to be offering a complimentary 4 lessons. 4 lessons. We just finished it. It's called I don't think you can see it here, but mastering the art of interpersonal relationships. So, as opposed to selling things, so you know what? Let's turn this into a free event. So, we're actually going to provide people an opportunity to do to take four lessons in order to master it. So, there's no self-assessment or whatnot. It'll just be a conversation, but they'll be able to provide that to anybody within their circle because not every company has a budget for.

Sure.

Well, at least this one, everyone could actually do this. But how you get access to it? Well, just get into the funnel. So the first gift would be the 10 Most Effective Feel-Good Icebreaking Questions, which is what I made— what's what made me different. It really is what made me different when I was in Bosnia.

Yeah.

So I use that to break the ice and to start a conversation. And the better you are at asking questions, the better you are at reading people. I love it. Because you cannot not communicate. You'll see their physiology. Are they going to talk fast? Are they going to talk slowly? Are they going to be very interactive and smiling and enthusiastic? And are they really going to be stoic and short and sweet in their answers?

Sure.

You cannot not communicate. You can discern their preferred communication style real fast with that approach. So, the better you are at asking questions, the better you are at reading their preferred communication style, or at least discerning it. So have some fun. There's 2 little missions, and it's written in a sort of like a Mission Impossible.

I've been humming that theme song all the way through this episode, just so you know.

But there's a lot of content in there. But at the end, you'll see my 3-4-5 approach. 3 words. I'm just curious. Yeah, I love it. Every time you say that to people, what happens? Subconscious mind stays open because we have so many shinies. Right? They say, what? What? Well, you know how. That's a question to establish a form of rapport.

Sure.

A connection. So, the head goes up and down. Would it be okay if I follow up with you? If we sit and break bread? If we— I send you this latest report? If I provide you a complimentary access? So, the 3-4-5 is actually inside the 10 Most Effective Feel-Good Icebreaking I love that. If you so choose to accept the question.

Well, I'm going to accept it because I think those kinds of questions, even if you have them written next to your computer when you're making calls and that sort of thing, could be so helpful even when dealing with your employees, especially during times of conflict. JJ, this has been absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing your brilliance and your energy and your passion with us today. It's been so great having you.

My pleasure, Marc. Thanks for having me. Have a great day.

Take care. Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to help you brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book a time that works for your calendar. The link is in the show notes. It is the one marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It'd be my absolute honor to be of service. Now, while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And of course, remember to subscribe. That'll give you early notification whenever I'm ready to launch the next best episode. Thank you for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope that you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope—

You do it.

Dare to be the exception.

Thank you for joining us this week on Experience Leadership. Make sure you visit marchaine.com for a full directory of available episodes. While you're at it, if you found today's content valuable, please share it and tell your friends about the show. As Marc Yes. Knowledge is power, but only if you share it. Be sure to tune in each week for the newest episode. Please stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.