Mastering Difficult Conversations: A Playbook for Leaders

Ever had that one employee who turns every team meeting into an episode of Survivor, full of blind sides, alliances, and the occasional verbal torch snuffing? Or maybe it's a co-worker who delivers compliments with a side of sarcasm that leaves you questioning your life choices. Worse yet, you might even be dealing with somebody in your office whose mere presence just sucks the energy out of the room faster than a black in a staff meeting. Here's the problem. People don't just hurt morale. They cost businesses real money. They waste time, drain productivity, and push your best employees to the edge. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I am so glad that you're tuning in today because my guest for this episode is the Tough Conversations Guy, Marc McPherson. And today, we are going to be tackling one of the biggest leadership headaches out there. Probably the biggest leadership headaches I've ever had. And that is how to handle difficult employees and tough conversations without the stress, the second-guessing, or the endless drama. Whether it's a toxic team member, an underperformer who just won't step up, or a workplace conflict that is draining time and morale, well, we are here to arm you with real-world strategies that actually work. So, if you've ever dreaded a confrontation, struggled to get through to an employee, or found yourself avoiding tough talks altogether, This episode is for you. My one ask is if you know somebody who could use this information, please share a link to this episode. And for goodness' sake, please make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. We're on our way to getting to 2,000 subscribers. We have over 185,000 people who view the episodes. But we only have 2,000 subscribers. So, if you're one of those who participate in this podcast and you're not subscribed, Shame on you! Go ahead and subscribe.

Yeah.

You know that moment when you walk into an office before you even sit down, you already feel the tension? You see them, the difficult employee just hovering. Maybe it's the one who always has an excuse. The one who turns every piece of feedback into a full-blown debate, or the one whose toxic attitude is spreading faster than a bad rumor in the break room. And let's be honest, we've got real work to do. You don't have time to play referee, therapist, or hostage negotiator. But here's the thing. Every moment you don't address an issue, it's costing you. And it costs you much more than you realize. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. Okay, so I'm going to hit you up with a bunch of questions because I think by asking the questions, you come to certain realizations. So, how many hours have you spent dealing with complaints, tiptoeing around conversations, or fixing the mess that is left behind? How many good employees have quit because you couldn't or wouldn't address the issue? What's it doing to your culture when your team sees the bad behavior and it goes unchecked? I really want to hear from you. So, drop a comment below and let me know. What is the toughest situation you faced when it comes down to working with a difficult employee or a co-worker? Even a difficult boss. What's one workplace behavior that drives you absolutely bonkers? And if you've got a burning question about handling these situations, hit us up on the chat. Put your comments down, your questions down because this is what we're talking about today. As I mentioned, my guest today is somebody who's going to want— you're going to want to pay attention to because he specializes in solving problems that every leader business owner, and manager will face at some point. And that is dealing with difficult people and having those tough conversations. Marc McPherson has spent his career helping professionals master the art of communication, whether it's handling underperforming employees, shutting down toxic behaviors, or simply making sure your words land with the right impact. He is the creator of the Workplace Performance Blueprint, the Real-Life Rehearsals, and Personal Conversation Script systems. These are systems designed to help leaders stop second-guessing themselves and start tackling workplace issues with clarity, confidence, and consistency. And what helps set Marc apart is that he's not about the vague feel-good advice. He's been in the trenches from being a science teacher to a lecturer in behavior management, senior education. He was an officer in drug and alcohol education, and even a team leader with the New South Wales Police Force. He knows what it takes to communicate under pressure, navigate high-stakes conversations, and turn difficult situations around. Marc, welcome to the show. It is so great to have you.

Well, thank you so much for that terrific introduction. And I'd forgotten about some of the things I've actually done in my life. So, that was good to have a refresher.

It's amazing, right? Because I think it was Judy Carter who said that our message is our mess plus our age. And so, all our experiences and I know perfectly well with the kind of profile that I have, I get a lot of gut feelings and those gut feelings are very real. So, when it comes down to leadership, I think being able to tap into expertise of people who's been there and done that and seen the outfall, we know full well what happens. But before we get too deep into today's topic, could you just tell us a little bit about who your customers are and how you serve them?

Well, you've talked about once before about new managers, people who have come up from this level up to the higher level. And they in particular are my customers at the moment because they have not been trained. They have not been equipped. They might be brilliant at their job, but suddenly they are in charge. So that's my one particular group that I'm helping at the moment. So that's a particular group that I think has been overlooked.

Yes.

Because they have not been given the appropriate training. So let me just say that I got into this because you've mentioned so many important things. I took over a team of 14 people once and it was one, just one that really gave me grief. But gave the other team members grief as well. And it was my job to step up to the plate and deal with it. And I won't lie to you, I was slow to do that. And I do not want to see these new young managers going into these positions without having the skills that I have now developed but I did not have at the time. So, I let off. I let these tough conversations go much longer than I should have. I should have stepped up a lot quicker.

Just before we went live, we were talking about how we've both experienced that at some point, right? Like I remember the very first time I looked at an employee and I said, how I deal with this employee will test what kind of a manager I want to be. And I remember because I came into a casino on my very first day. I was being toured around. And everybody's like nervous because the new guy's here. The new director's here. And I'm meeting all the frontline staff. And I walked into— was introduced to this one young lady who came to me and she shook my hand very heartily and says, are you for or against rules?

My goodness!

And right there, I thought, this person's going to be trouble. And she was. And to give her all due diligence and make absolutely sure we treated her absolutely fairly, It took 2 years to get rid of her.

Wow!

Yeah. And it's not to say that we didn't react to stuff. But she was very smart and very manipulative in the way she did things. And so, I think, why don't we start off by talking a little bit about what we mean when we say difficult people in the workplace. What is a difficult person in the workplace and how do they show up based on your experiences?

Look, I've read an awful lot of books and I've been to an awful lot of seminars. And one thing I found was the definition of what is a difficult person really wasn't there. Examples, yes, but not a definition. So for me, my definition of a difficult person is someone who is poorly behaved. That's the first thing. Now, we're all poorly behaved. Don't get me wrong. I say something to my wife and I, Walk out the door and about 2 hours later I go, I really shouldn't have said that. So we all, we're all poorly behaved every now and then, but a truly difficult person doesn't get that. So the second thing a difficult person does is, is they show no remorse. The reason why I was rude is because you made me be rude. The reason I did this is because of something else. So they like to blame other things. There's no remorse. And if There is remorse, it's usually insincere. And the third thing that defines a difficult person in my book is they repeat the behavior. I'd like to think at least when I do something that I find inappropriate or the wrong thing, I realize later it's wrong. I apologize, I make amends, and I don't repeat the behavior. Now, just for what it's worth, people started to tell me there's 8 types of difficult people. I read this book about here's the 12 types. So I I asked people. I went around and actually asked people, have you ever met a difficult person? Have you had one? Can you tell me about it? So I wrote 52 types of difficult people and I stopped because that's how many cards there are in a pack. That's how many weeks there are in a year. So I thought, I'll leave it there and just have subtypes. Now, the problem with so many types is that you look at these books and they'll say, This is how you deal with Mr. Negative. This is how you deal with that. And quite often the strategies were similar. Speak to them. Do this. So I said, well, let's just put all of these 52 people together and define them in these 3 ways. So it doesn't matter. They blaspheme. They swear. They don't turn up to the staff meeting in time. They make a comment that you think is sexist. Every time you allocate work, they go, oh, thanks. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or even worse, they look up at you and they go, thanks for that, like I have nothing better to do.

Yes, yes. Thank you for overburdening me yet again.

Oh, this is for me? Oh sure, I had nothing else planned for today. Thanks so much.

There's no one else in the office at all, just me. We could go on and on and on, couldn't we?

Well, what are some of What are some of the biggest myths leaders have about dealing with difficult people? Let's start there because I think what I see happening in a lot of workplaces, a lot of toxic workplaces is people have a belief system around dealing with people. So, what are some of the myths that you've tripped over?

Look, one of them is if I do nothing, they will suddenly see the error of their ways and suddenly behave better. Their performance will go up. They will stop being a little bit rude. They will stop making those sarcastic comments. That, in my experience, does not happen. Yes, sometimes people settle down. We get that. But on the whole, that doesn't happen. So the first myth is that things will be okay if I just pretend it's not happening. So the second thing is, another myth is, if I step up to the plate and speak to them, nothing will happen. It won't work. Now, in some cases, it doesn't work because they don't have some particular skills and some information that I would like to give them. But there's the two. One is it'll go away. And the second big myth is there's nothing you can do. If I try to do it, they'll be the same. Everyone— oh, here's another one that just came to my mind. A woman said to me a little while ago, I don't want to be a manager. I don't want to have to bring people into line. Everyone will hate me.

Oh yeah. Goodness, yeah. But that's a very real fear, isn't it? Like, I mean, people get promoted into leadership roles. They were really good technicians at whatever they were doing. And they were probably approached and it was like, hey Jimmy, you're such a good employee. You're so good. Why don't we make you a supervisor and then you could teach everybody how to be as good as you? And then, you step into the role without having any of the tools to be able to deal with leadership. And it's like, I don't want people to hate me. I don't want to have to tell them what to do.

Well, as a person I'm helping at the moment, she was an amazing biology teacher. I've got no doubt, incredibly skilled. And she then became head teacher as we call it here in New South Wales. The head of the department. And suddenly, she had to deal with things she didn't have to deal with before. But exactly what you said, she was an excellent biology teacher. The parents loved her. The kids love her. She got great results. So now, I'm going to be in charge of 20 other people.

Yeah, completely different skill sets, isn't it? Completely different skill sets.

Well, running your own show in your own classroom is one thing. Advising other people and getting other people to turn up on time to their classes with their work prepared is a totally different thing. And she was quite scared about that. And she said, oh, that person's been doing that for years. There's nothing you can do. Well, if that's what you really think, I'm not sure why we're having this conversation. There are things you can do. You've raised so many points and you said earlier about— 2 years to get rid of someone. My problem that I had, it was 6 months of torture. And you talked about the cost of these things. The cost is the time that I spent dealing with this person. And I'm going to go a step further. The time I spent talking to people outside work about this, I'm sure I became boring.

Well, and just the emotional Just the emotional toil that takes on you as well. Because if you're a normal human being, you're thinking, I have this person. I have a problem. I want to treat her well. I don't want to treat— I don't want to go off onto it. I don't want to blow up at the person. I want to give them due diligence. But at the same token, why is it that we make excuses for bad behavior?

I think one of the reasons we make excuses is because we're scared of actually doing our job properly.

Right.

We're scared of the ramifications. So, I always say that when we have these conversations, there's 3 things we're always thinking about. We're thinking about, do I have the skills to actually carry off this conversation well without faltering halfway through? How will the other person react? What if they cry? What if they yell at me? What if they look at me and, you know, what if they do that? And one other thing is the ramifications. Many of us are scared that if we have this conversation, they will hate me. The other team will think I'm being a bully or a micromanager or whatever labels you want to put on these things. So, we're scared of these things. And I think that's why we are reluctant to step up to the plate. Maybe there's another one. Let's be honest. No one wants to have these conversations. Who wants to have to say to somebody, your work is not up to scratch? Right.

Nobody wants the confrontation, right? Like, I mean, we try to avoid the painful confrontations at all costs.

Absolutely. And I just want to go to work and have a good time. And it's someone's birthday. Sure, let's have a cake. That's fine. Let's have a joke. But at the end of the day, I want people, the people that I help now, I want them and their staff to go home at the end of the day feeling good about themselves.

Right.

Sure, they're busy. They're tired. They're exhausted. But feel good about yourself.

Would one of the myths be that I don't want to step up and deal with these negative individuals because I don't want the reputation to be that I'm going to be coming down on people?

This was me in my case when I took over 14 people. This team had been through a lot. So I, on the one hand, I had a job to do. I was paid to do a job. I took the job. I took the kudos. I took the money. I had to take the responsibility. That's something that comes with these positions. But I didn't want to be seen as someone from outside the organization coming in and suddenly, I know this is your fear. I know what to do. I'm going to tell people this and I'm going to tell people that they will think poorly of me and I don't want to be too harsh. But as I said, you do take the job, you take the responsibility. But it's always this balancing act between I've got a job to do, I don't want to be too hard. I've got a job to do, I don't want to be seen as a bully. And there's been so much talk these days about micromanaging, etc., that I think sometimes we're a little scared to step up to the plate and do our job for fear of those feelings. And I think most of those feelings come from us.

Yes, absolutely it does. It's so interesting because as you were talking, I could think of so many different situations where a lack of consistency. Like when we think about the whole aspect of trust because ultimately, that's what it's boiling down to is that we want our staff to trust us. We want them to know that we have their backs. But at the same token, we have to be consistent. And part of the challenge with toxic workplaces is maybe the manager come down on people being late one day. But then, for the next 3 weeks, nobody gets in trouble for being late. And then, more people are late. And then, the manager calls everybody together and yells and reads them the riot act and no more! And it's just a cycle that just keeps on going, doesn't it?

Absolutely! You mentioned the consistency. You must be consistent in these things. You have rules. And then, that brings up a whole other issue about sometimes I work with workplaces who aren't even clear what the rules are. What are the standards of behavior? After you use the meeting room, are you supposed to clean it? Oh, hang on. We've got a cleaner for that, says somebody. Well, no. Someone else has to use that staff meeting after you. So, in one situation, I had a company that wasn't sure about all these little rules. How loud are you allowed to speak on the phone when you're in an open-planned office, etc.? So, it's these little things that quite often bug people. You need to be consistent. You need to know what those standards are about everything.

Who—

there's even a fight I witnessed about emptying the dishwasher in the staff lunchroom. And how about this? I saw a sign in a lunchroom that said, I am not your mother.

Yeah.

I get it. But I'm telling you, it was of no value whatsoever except some people simply thought it was sort of rude.

Yeah.

So, the best thing to do is have clear rules, be consistent and enforce those rules. If it's a rule, enforce it. And there's nothing worse than somebody looking in that office, in that team saying, how come I came to work late and got chipped for it? But how come then? And that builds resentment and lowers morale.

Yep. And you end up with perceptions of favoritism and persecution all through the team. And it just becomes a lose-lose situation as you go forward. And to your point, sometimes the difficult person can be the boss.

Yes, I think there's a myth around that difficult difficult people are employees. I've worked with colleagues who are difficult. You're working on a team together and you're supposedly collaborating and cooperating. And you find someone withholds resources. I wish we had that bit of information last week. So, it's up. I often say up, down, and sideways is where we have to deal with people. One of the things I talk about is power and authority. And it's not a dirty word. It's easier when you're the parent to speak to your 12-year-old child about their behavior than it might be to your spouse. It's easier to talk to an employee than it is to speak up to someone. That's hard work because there are— I talked about ramifications. And there certainly are. You suddenly don't get those job opportunities. So, it works all around. But I do have techniques of, I call it, how to say things so you don't get shot. There's no guarantee of success here. But just don't get shot when you open your mouth. And you've got to pick your targets carefully.

Well, that's a great segue because after the break, I'd like to talk about some of these solutions. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back. I am speaking with the Tough Conversations guy, Marc McKeown. I love that tagline. I know you think it's a little corny, but I love that title. So, we're of course talking about all these different situations in which we might have to deal with something and somebody. And the problem happens if we just shrug it off and just give the excuse, this is just a one-time thing. It's never happened before. I don't anticipate it's ever going to happen again. That human behavior will— like bad behavior will evolve into worse behavior over time. And so, shrugging it off and saying it might go away. It was the first offense. So, I'm not going to say anything now. That seems to be a really rough strategy.

Well, thinking it's going to magically go away. Who knows? Sometimes, people do suddenly behave better. But rarely does it. It becomes worse and it rubs off onto other people. And that's the issue where other members of staff look at you and say, how come they're getting away with blue murder? How come I have to follow the business plan where they seem to be doing their own thing? And that was one of my situations I had to deal with. How come you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing? You're busy. There's no doubt about that. But then thinking it's going to go away is such a big mistake. But the second thing is stepping up to the plate. And I've always liked that term, stepping up to the plate because I think it really is a great metaphor. You have to step up to the plate and you have to deal with it. And the first job of that is working out in your own mind, what are the standards of behavior here? Is it okay to come to a staff meeting 10 minutes late? Just walk in? Is that okay? Because we'll all come 10 minutes late and just say the staff meeting doesn't start at 2. It starts at 2:10. Let's just make that as a rule.

So, is that Is that the first step? Is that we have to start thinking about what the rule is?

Well, when you feel— I deal with a lot of people who say, oh, they're just poorly behaved, or they don't do the right thing. I have to draw that. What do you actually mean? And if there's no rule for certain things like blaspheming, if, oh, it's just understood, it's common sense. Well, it might be to you, but it's not to other people because they think that's the way they speak at home. So, the very first thing for me is nailing the violation as I call it. What have they actually done that you find unacceptable? Oh, it's just their general demeanor. It won't cut it. Try that at a disciplinary meeting and see how you go. Their union or that person will eat you. So, being very clear about exactly what it is. It is against the rule. That language you used upset me personally, and Susan was quite offended and upset about that. But even that sort of thing is somewhat difficult if you don't actually have things written down. And I like to be specific. The last thing we want is a book that's 50 pages long of rules.

Right.

You're not allowed to say this blaspheming— this blasphemous word. You're not allowed to say this one, this cuss, whatever it happens. It'll be too, too long. I think we we can get the picture. But the very first thing for me when you're dealing with a difficult person is what I call nailing the violation. Exactly what it is that they've done. And it's in 2 parts. The first one is what happened? Oh, they just went crazy. You know, I had someone who was on the front line of a local government collecting rates from people said, oh, they just went mad. It's not good enough.

No.

I need to know exactly what they did. Well, they picked up the stapler and threw it against the wall. Now we're talking.

Right.

And what is wrong with that? It sounds silly to say this, but the first— what's the problem with that? The problem is it's against the rules. It's a dangerous thing to do, whatever it happens to be. Nailing that violation. And someone said to me a while ago, oh, Marc, you want me to be boring and dull. I said, no, I want you to be accurate because they use words like, oh, they were belligerent. And if you use words like that, yes, what does it mean? So be very, very clear and I call it using facts and that is boring and dull if you like. We had a guest presenter, they got up to speak at the seminar and Bill did this. Oh, another woman speaking. I'm sorry, That's what he said. Not, he was rude, he was sexist. All of those things, they're correct. But be very clear about exactly what you saw and why is it unacceptable. So that's the very first thing for me, being clear. And I deal with people who aren't clear. They actually do use words like belligerent. Oh, my teenage son is just hopeless. I'm sure he's not. So, that's it.

So, part of what we're talking about as well is that we have a set of rules. But we also have sets of expectations on what is professional, what is allowed, what is the mores of the business if we want to get that deep. And so, sometimes we'll be in businesses that they don't have a policy manual. And the leader has always That said, just show good common sense. Or even better, I love this one, is treat people the way that you want to be treated. And it's like, well, what the heck does that mean? Like, I mean, if I'm going through— I've sat in a car with a guy who did nothing but swear at all the other drivers around. It's like, I don't want him swearing like that at me.

I think you've nailed it. We need to be very clear about what the rules are. And sometimes it is common sense. It's common sense you don't litter. You'd like to think that. But sometimes you need to put up signs in parks and say, it's against the rules. You will be fined, or whatever it happens to be.

Right.

In the workplace, you need to be very clear about what the rules are. And I'm going to use the word respectful. I know it's a word that you have used from time to time. And my problem with that word is that different people have an idea of what is respectful. I think blaspheming, that for me is not something I want people to do. But other people say, oh, we do that all the time at home. So people have different ideas about what is appropriate language. So you need to be very clear. Nothing wrong with over the months adding rules to things. If I have not made it really clear beforehand, I'd like to make it clear today that when meetings start at 2 PM, I expect everyone to be here at 2 PM sitting down and ready. If that's— you can say that without being nasty, without being rude. If that's the expectations, fine. All those sorts of little things. If the rule is that the phone should be— your mobile phone should be off during the staff meetings, well, make it a rule. That's not hard and you don't have to be heavy about it. So that's the one thing that I think that You're right. You need to be clear about these things. What's common sense is not necessarily common sense. If you have to make up rules, so be it.

How valuable do you think defining one's values is within a team? I'm always looking for true north. Like I'm always looking for that. And I'm a big fan of Stephen Covey, right? And I'm always looking at how do we think about what true north is as far as being able to set expectations. If we were to have defined values, As leaders, couldn't we constantly call back to those values and then test against it?

Look, I like attitudes, beliefs, and values. And I like them being well-defined. I think sometimes some people's values are a little bit vague. And what some people see as a value, I'd see as an attitude. So, I need to be a little bit careful about that. But I wrote down what I call 6 standards of behavior. one time, like just categories. And we can start with honesty. We can start with generosity. We can start with kindness, all of acknowledgement, diligence. All of these things to me are values. But what is diligent to one person might not be, might be I'm a slave driver to someone else.

Right.

I think it's important to know what our values are. I think it's important to be very clear about what our standards are. And this is why I'll just go back to the households again because I think it's a great example. You go to someone's kitchen and on the refrigerator, there's all these rules. I saw one a little while ago that said— the parent must have been quite angry— when I say 8 PM is your bedtime, I mean you have already brushed your teeth, you have already put your pajamas on. You have already gone to the toilet. If we had—

I hate to say it, Marc. I've seen memos like that. I've actually seen memos with that tone posted in lunchrooms and in staff locker rooms. And it just smacks. It smacks to me that people, they get to the point where they're fed up and they think that this is the solution to it. But without having again the clear cut, the reason why it got out of hand is because nobody addressed it beforehand. And so, and then to me, it also smacks from a leadership component that it really defines the ineffectiveness of the leader. I have a theory that whenever a leader turns to an employee and says, you have to listen to me. I'm your boss.

Oh my God!

That is the leader grasping at trying to regain control because somewhere along the way, they've lost that control. And we've even heard it like I heard it from President Trump during his first time in office when he was talking to the reporter and he says, I'm the President of the United States. I can do anything. And it's like, oh my goodness! He's trying to— he's lost control and now he's trying to re-establish his control. So, we need to understand that sometimes the behavior that we're seeing in our workplace is actually rooted in our behavior as leaders. If we have our values defined and we tell people what diligence means to us and what honesty means to us and we don't live up to that, then we have kind of this ripple effect down into the rest of the teams.

Look, we've used these words which I think are important. Expectations we used earlier. People need to know what is expected of them. And some people say, oh, I don't like the word expectation because it sounds like it's just something we we wish would happen. I think we all get what the word expectation means. So, I'm happy. I'm happy with it. What is our attitude? What are our standards? What are our values? They need to be very, very, very clear. And then we need to act on them. And I'm sure there was something I was going to say then. But I've managed to— Oh, I do know. I do know what I was going to say. I have also seen the email that's gone out that that says something like this. I would just like to remind everybody that work starts at 9 AM. You need to be at your desk by 9 AM because if you're not, then customers come through the door and they want where the good service is, etc. I'd just like to remind people. This is not good leadership.

No.

Good leadership is identifying who has not come to work on on time and talking to them respectfully. I call it being tactful as well as assertive. You can be assertive, but you can also be tactful. I always like to try tact first. Diplomacy is always a good place to start. If you have to go up the ladder and be more assertive, so be it. But you need to identify who is doing the wrong thing and you need to speak to them. I'll tell you what happens when you do that general Or I've seen it as a sign too in a meeting room is that the person who has done the wrong thing goes, well, no one's spoken to me. And the other people who are doing the right thing go, 3 weeks ago, I was late to work. Maybe he's talking about that.

Or, I don't know why he sent me this damn email. I've always been on time. I don't know why he sent this to me. Why is he picking on me?

Yeah, resentment and anger. And I think maybe fair enough. Why are they being spoken to like that? So, this goes back to identifying exactly what is the problem and nailing the violation and speaking to them. And there are ways to speak to people to get your best bang for the buck.

And so, can we talk a little bit about that? Because I think part of the skill building that we need to do is we need to understand how we approach it. Like having somebody who's maybe nervous about the outcome of a speech. I remember talking with a supervisor and helping I coached them through a difficult conversation. And their biggest thing was, I was so afraid that they would cry. And then, once they came out of the situation and we got to debrief afterwards, they said, it went so well. And so then, we talked about why did it go well. So, what are some of the elements that we need to be prepared for so that when we do have to confront a difficult challenge, a difficult, challenging person. What are some of the things that we need to kind of be prepared for so that we walk out of that transaction with clarity, with calmness, and knowing full well that we've respected both sides of the argument?

Look, first of all, let's just be honest here. No matter how well you handle this, there will be times when the other person is upset. Perhaps does cry. I've had to deliver bad news to someone who— and they did cry. They might get pushback, as I call it. You will get people who will look at you when you're talking to them quite reasonably. We'll get that. There's no doubt about it. But here's some things you can do. I'll just give you an example. So I was working in an organization where we actually had to fill out timesheets. So I think maybe they've gone, but I think it's a good example. So when I spoke to Michael, I'll use that, say that's his name. When I spoke to him, the usual sorts of things. But this is what I did with him. First of all, having something is always a good thing because I think eye contact has been overdone. It's hard on you. It's hard on the other person. To look straight at the other person for any length of time. So that's why it's useful to have some— something, their report, whatever it happens to be. But to have something, because what you tend to do is this tends to be the negative thing. His timesheet was the negative thing. Michael, I'd like to talk to you about your timesheet. I can see here whatever it happens to be. I won't go into the details. So that's the facts. You wrote down 9 o'clock. I know you came in at 9:30 on that day. See, these are the facts. You've got to be very clear about what the facts are. Not, Michael, you've screwed this up. Michael, this is a mess. Michael, what are you trying to do to me, buddy? Now, I don't know whether Michael was just hopeless at filling this in or whether he was trying to pull the wool over my eyes. But to be able to use something like that, and I said, this is a problem because I can't fill it in as a true and accurate record. That's the facts and that's the problem. What I wanted to say is, come on, man, you're 40. Can't you fill in a timesheet properly? Are you lying? I know what I wanted to say. Don't. But to be able to say this, And I hope this resonates. I'll go back to the parents again. I've witnessed a parent having a go at their teenage son for their school report. And they do things like this. No, here's the report. No, look at this English result. It's terrible. It's just— no, look at it. Look at it. And then halfway through this conversation, And it works in the office as well. Halfway through this conversation, they go, this isn't working. Oh, we love you. It's your behavior that's the problem. But everything you did said, no, it's them. So to be able to move something to the side, and I like to have them on my right-hand side because I'm right-handed, all these little tricks. But it's easier on them. I want it to be easy on them.

Yeah.

So, and I said to Michael, there's the facts. I explained the problem. F-E-A is my little script here. Facts. I explained the problem. I put it upside down. And that's when I used eye contact. And I asked a question. This is my first tact. This is the tact part of this. Michael, is there something I need to know? I've asked other questions. How can you and I work together to make sure this problem is fixed? What can I do for you to make sure that your reports from now on are as good as they should be and delivered on time? Asking a question is one of the most tactful things you can do. I'm not saying it always works. But that can be a script.

But again, to your point, I mean, the questions are really good as long as the intent behind the question Is sound. I want to say respectful and sound. But I may be having a hard time vocalizing it. But it's non-manipulative, right? Because I do hear like I've sat through where they'll pull out the sheet. They'll pull out whatever the infraction was. And then, they'll say, and so, what do you think about this? Right? And it's like, what was the expectation for the answer?

Right?

As opposed to— right? And to your point, I love this, the method that you take because it becomes a question of, here's the outline. Here's the challenge. This is what happened. What do we need to do to keep this from happening again?

Absolutely. And it's not a guarantee of success. But I'll go back to say there's 3 questions you need to answer before you have these conversations. And maybe I should have said that at the beginning. But the first one is, so what's happened and what's the problem? Now that we've covered that one, that's about the facts. But the second question is, what do you want the person to do and can they do it? Because ultimately, I'm not there to ball out an underperforming employee. My job is to help them do better. That's what I want. I want them to be a hardworking, diligent, lovely, delightful person to work with. The perfect employee. So, what do you want the person to do? And I do have people every now and then, oh, I just want to tell them that their behavior is not good enough. Well, if all you want to do is just ball them out and just say, that they're not good enough, fine. But don't expect them to play ball. And when you say things like, yeah, and what are you going to do about it? Well, these people who think that's a good idea have never met a difficult person because a difficult person's response to that is varied and may not be what you actually want them to say. So I like the approach of As I call it, F-E-A, facts, explain, and ask. But I'm going to up the ante here because there are times when you need to move straight to what I call assertive mode. And there are times if someone makes a comment and I don't— I stay away from words like sexist and racist, not because the people's comments aren't, because you then get into a debate. about what is really sexist and what is really racist and stuff like that. So that's not a fact. That's a label we put on this language and behavior, which I think is fine. It's true that they were sexist or whatever it happens to be, but I stay away from it. So I might say, for example, here's another little script for your listeners and your viewers. F-E-W-E-R. F and E is the same, right? Yesterday at the staff meeting, Bill, We had a guest speaker get up to say, to speak. You went like this. You made a comment which other people heard. I heard. It's a problem because it was offensive. It was a put-down. It's against our rules. I love rules. That's just that. That's not arguable. If I'd said something like, oh, yesterday at the staff meeting, Bill, you were very sexist. How was I?

Well, it becomes accusatory and the person is going to push back.

You have to explain it anyway. So, you might as well just say what it was. And also, that unemotive language tends— you tend to get people agree. Yeah, I was a bit over the top. But then, you have to say what you want. And this is where the FEW comes in. I'm a believer in saying, what I want you to do from now on. Now, they get it. But you have to say it sometimes because the last thing you want is someone to go away from a tough conversation and go, I don't know. I don't know what they're on about. What I want you to do from now on, Bill, is to refrain from making any of those sorts of comments whatsoever. Even if you don't like the presenter, don't say them. And the E I like to put in there is to explain why that's a good thing. You'd think it was not necessary. You meet a really difficult person. It's necessary to say, that will be good because— I love the word because. Parents love the word because. They just use it by itself. Because that'll make sure that you're doing the right thing by the rules. We have presenters who enjoy coming back and other staff members will not be disturbed by you. So, I like to say that. But here comes the R for rewards. And I used to say punishments. People found that too hard. I've changed it to penalties. But you do have to say, And I actually said to Michael over this because Michael had a bit of pushback when I asked him how we could— is there anything I need to know? So I had to resort to the REFEWER. And I said to him, the reward is, Michael, if you can fix that up, this conversation is forgotten about. Believe me, the timesheet is not the biggest issue in the world in that whole So I said, if you can, that's the reward. There's no pocket money here. It's nothing. So like, if you can do that, that's great. But here's the penalty, Michael. If you continue to make those sorts of mistakes on your timesheet, and I do say this is the timesheet over here, if you continue to make those, I will have to speak to you again. Now, he knew what that meant. And here's the trick. Zip it. The big mistake that I see of leaders' mistake and managers' mistake is then do the extra stuff. I'm so sorry it came to this. I wish it didn't come to this. I hope this won't interfere with our relationship. I hope you'll still be giving that talk at the presentation tomorrow. I hope you'll— Stop it!

Yeah, yeah.

It undermines everything you just said. And if you say it politely, if you say it without emotion, if you are tactful and assertive, there's no need to say that stuff.

How important— you mentioned if it doesn't happen again, this is just going to be history. Talk a little bit about the need for documentation. And I believe that there are escalating consequences and even de-escalating consequences. Right? Like over a period of time, if somebody's been good, if somebody was late once or let's say twice in a week and you say, this is going to be— this is a formal verbal warning. It's going to go down in your file as a verbal warning. But then, a year later, they come in late. You're not going to go and go, oh, this is escalating now because you were late a year ago twice. Right? And so, this idea of escalation, de-escalation, the importance of paperwork and having records of conversations. Can we talk a little bit about that?

Absolutely. First of all, how important being late to work is, is a matter for each individual workplace. For some, it's essential. I know people in a call center, sorry, if you're not answering that phone at 9:00 a.m., it's a serious problem. Other people, I'll just stay a few minutes later and fill up the time.

Not a problem.

But that documentation, I'm amazed at how many people Fail at it. You do. And people will say to me, oh, I have to stay back after work and write pages of work. No, mate. If you just stick to the facts, then it's a lot easier. I just like a few columns: the date, what happened, or what they did, what happened, what you did in response to that, and maybe a 4th column, which is update. You need to record these things. And if you just stick with the facts and dot points— I've dealt with people who say, oh, here's my notes from the from my talking to Bill or whatever. And it's pages and pages of stuff. It's just not necessary. But dot points is important and you need to record these things. In fact, some places, of course, require it for you to record things and to record them in a certain way. So I'll leave that to the individual workplace. But for me, I think things should be documented. Even it's only because next week when you speak to them, it's able to say, no, I spoke to you at 9:30 AM last Monday. That's— there's something very nice about a leader being able to say that. It shows that you're on the ball. You keep notes. You're with it. Not, oh, we spoke sometime last week. It's a terrible look. So, I'm into recording. I'm into documenting. But make it brief. Do not make this an onerous task because I think that's why some people don't do it. I've seen pages of notes, dot points. Michael wrote down on his timesheet, see copy attached, PDF, whatever it happens to be, see copy attached. Wrote down, came in at 9 AM. I saw him come in through the door at 9:30 AM. I spoke to him about it. He said he understood and will not do it again. Something like that. But only you can work out how important these things are. Someone swears at a staff meeting. I can't speak for other people how important that is. Yes, it depends what was said, how it was said. If they drop scalding coffee on their stomach and they swear, that might be different to actually saying what I think about someone else. So, only you can work out what your values are. But they do need to be clear. And let's go back to that issue. If they're not clear, oh, how come I can't say that? Susan said it last week. And if you didn't pick up Susan for doing it, I think you're in trouble. Yes, absolutely.

When we come back, I'd like to talk about some pitfalls and cautionaries. As people kind of start percolating with some of these ideas and they want to apply it in their work, I'm really cautious of people who want to band-aid solutions and they say, well, I watched this podcast and I said, it was— they said I could do this. And so, when we come back, I'd like to talk a little bit about cautionaries and pitfalls, right after this.

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Welcome back! As you can tell, Marc and I are super focused on serving you and your team. So, if you are planning a leadership retreat or a conference, or you'd like to explore how we could be of benefit to you and your team, Drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. And Marc does have a complimentary discovery call as well. If you have a problem that you'd like to discuss with an expert, feel free to make a time on his calendar to see if there's anything he can help you with. Marc, if leaders have already let bad behaviors go on too long, is there a way to do like You've raised a very important thing that people do allow bad behavior to go on for too long.

I don't think it's ever too late to actually step up to the plate and bring in rules. I don't think there's a problem with that. But I think sometimes, it's important to acknowledge it. Look, in the past, I've allowed people to come late to the meeting. But this is not satisfactory.

Yeah.

And I'm going to ask you to come back. I want people from now on. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying to someone, your language at the staff meeting when you said A, B, and C, I found that offensive. Other people found it's against the rules. And I want you to know that I am applying these rules a little bit stricter these days. But it needs to be announced. You just can't do this behind someone's back. I think you need to announce it. And that requires a little bit of bravery, doesn't it? To step up and say to your staff, look, in the past, I've allowed this to go or that to go. I want you to know that I've looked at this closely. And from now on, when I say work starts at 9 AM, I want everyone to be at their workstation with their computer on. What's wrong? There's nothing wrong with that.

Yep.

But I think if you let it go because, oh, I didn't do it in the past, no, big mistake. If you think you've made a mistake in the past and you need to correct it and you need to bring in those rules, I say bring them in. But just have good manners about it. Don't just bring it in behind people's back.

Yeah, you know, there's something, I think there's something rather endearing about a leader who turns around and goes, guys, I have to apologize. For the last few months, I haven't been cracking down. We've said we're meeting at 9 o'clock. And I realized that a lot of you leave these meetings really frustrated with how long it takes to get stuff done. So, from this point on, this is what I'd like to see happen. Right? Is everybody okay with that? Right? Does anybody have any challenges with that? Right? And then, say, fair enough. And then, that kind of resets you to zero, doesn't it?

Yeah, that's right. I agree. And I like the way you said it. It wasn't passive. It was upfront and clear. You didn't say, look, I'd like to. No, you've got to be very, very clear and practice it. I always like to say that the windscreen of my car knows an awful lot of stuff. Practice it and don't just practice it in your head. Say it out loud because it's quite a different experience. It's quite a different skill set saying something Oh, I'll say this. I'll say that, to actually speaking it. And if the person in the car next to you at the set of traffic lights thinks you're odd, well, so be it. Don't worry about them. Just practice it. So, you need to.

So, what are some of the things we should be aware of as we try to make these changes in our work environments? What are some pitfalls and cautionaries?

Well, I'm going to go back to— I don't want to keep adding more and more things without going back to something that we talked about Early on. Being very, very clear about what your standards are. What are the rules of this workplace? And I have a lovely little exercise which I didn't make up, by the way, but I've stolen from someone else to help people work out what are the rules in a workplace, the protocols, if you like. So, that's the very first thing is the biggest mistake that people make is not being clear about the rules. How can you possibly call someone up for their poor behavior when we don't actually know What the right behavior is. We have a standard. We have a line. I call it above the line and below the line. We have that standard and we need to know exactly what that is. So, one of the biggest mistakes I see in a workplace is not being clear about it. I actually had someone say to me, oh, the previous manager didn't care. So, well, what can you say other than in your mind, what you're saying is, I don't care less what the previous manager said. You say, well, that may be the case. But what we need to do now as we move forward, there's all sorts of little ways we can say these things to make it palatable for people. But one of the very first things is being very clear about what your standards are. When you have a tough conversation, you need to be very clear about what those facts are. And I'm going to go back to those facts because I've run workshops And it's still at 5 o'clock. Someone says, oh, this is what I'm going to tell them. And I have to say, no.

What are the facts?

What are the facts? Can you not tell them that their behavior is absolutely pitiful? Can you please not?

As long as being the facilitator, workshop facilitator, you don't look at them and go, what, are you stupid?

Yeah, it's terrible. So, These are some of the pitfalls and not speaking up to it. But not having a script, I call them personal conversation scripts. But the way I say them is not the way someone else would say them. So they need to be tailored to you. And not only that, I say they need to be personalized. There's lots of cultures within our countries and the way that I say something with the lingo I might use is not the same as someone else's they might use in their workplace. So you need to personalize these things and practice them. But I love scripts just because they help you formulate what to say and they keep you on track and they keep you focused. And that last bit that I said, just zip it, man. Just stop it. But those are the I think there's lots and lots of pitfalls we can always talk about, but I just want to keep it easy and on track. Being clear and stepping up to those people, saying what needs to be said. And in your heart, in your heart, know that you have done the right thing when you've said to somebody tactfully yet assertively, their work, their behavior is not as good as it should be. And this is the way it should be from now on. I'll give you another little tip, which is a pitfall, which is when you're sometimes dealing with somebody, say, over a counter or something, if you're on the front line of an organization. And sometimes managers have to take their role out there as well, that people like choices. And you mentioned choices. It's so important to be able to say, listen, you can do You can do this or you can do that. And I actually, yeah, and we do it naturally with a pen. We use a biro or something and say this. And when they say, I'd like to do such and such, you go, that's not one of the 3.

Yes. Yeah. But by giving them the choice as well, they have to decide. And so, you get automated buy-in because they were part of the solution.

Yeah, I always found that. I think it's also polite. But you can rewrite it now. You can go away and do this, or this can happen. If there's only 2 choices, so be it. But I think giving choices is something that people often say to me, I don't have any choices. Believe me, think about it. There's always choices you can give people. Now, if it's sexist language, there's not a choice. I want you to refrain from saying any of those sorts of terms again. That's it.

So, your choice is comply or seek your happiness elsewhere.

Well, that's it. And I've dealt with a staff member who was doing their own thing rather than following the business plan. They said, oh, but everyone else likes it. See, so this is where you get this pushback. And the clearer you are about because what you then get into a debate about Whether they like it or don't like it, whether they should like it.

And you're completely off track.

So here's a little tip. That's fine. What this hand is very different to that. That's fine. And I understand that people might like it. What I want you to do though is this, this or this and you have a choice. I'm happy with whichever one you use, but they're the 3 choices. And you need to take control back of these. And I actually call it taking control of tough conversations. You need to take control of these things and you can do it. And you need to practice. I want you to go home at the end of the day feeling good about yourself. Stop bothering your spouse about this. And come on, let's face it. Who has spent Sunday night worrying about tomorrow morning? They'll be late again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Step up to the plate, take the action you need to take, use those scripts. And you said before, if people want to have a chat to me, I'm happy for that. There's no obligation. I'm not going to hit you with any sales talk. If your listeners, your viewers want to get something off their chest and just say, Marc, you won't believe it. I have this person who blah, blah, blah, blah. And I had someone a little while ago do exactly that. Marc, I have to have a tough conversation with my brother-in-law. My wife demanded— that's his words— demanded that we employ him because he needed a second go because he hadn't been successful. I've given him a go. Now, I've got to tell him his work is not good enough. And if he doesn't pick up his game, I'm going to His words, let him go. Yeah, it's such a great euphemism. How can I do that so I don't get shot?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so I'm more than happy to speak to you about these things. How can you do it? And there's no guarantee of not getting pushback.

How can people get in touch with you if they do want to reach out, Marc?

Look, there's a number of ways that I'm sure that we'll put them into into your podcast one way or another.

Yeah, it'll be in the show notes.

I'm going to go with LinkedIn just because everyone knows what it is. But Marc McPherson, I am there. There's a few Marc McPhersons, but look at this beautiful face. Now, come on, you'll find who it is. I'm on LinkedIn. That's one of the best ways just because everyone knows the software program. I have an email address. I have a website.

It'll be in the show notes.

I'm going to go with LinkedIn just because I think most people are familiar with it even if they don't use it a lot. It's very easy and I will reply.

Terrific! Marc, thank you so much for doing this today. This has just been brilliant. I've loved this conversation and it's a conversation that is so needed in today's day and age.

Look, it is one of the things that I get concerned about, about the stuff on leadership is it's always about leaders have got to build in a succession plan. Leaders have got to be empathic. Leaders have got to use active listening. I'm sorry. Here's another part that I think we're being unfair to leaders about. That's all very nice.

Yeah.

But sometimes you have to have tough conversations with people. Look, I've had to say, as we've all had to say to a mate, a friend of ours, look, thanks, John, for your report. There are a few mistakes in it. I want you to correct those and give it back to me by 4 PM today.

Yeah. There you go. Expectations. Direct.

I'm the leader.

Yep. Yep. It's my job. Marc, this has been brilliant. Thank you so much for doing this today. I really appreciate you taking time out today.

And thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of your world.

Yeah, I love it, love it, love it! Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a review or About this episode. I'd love to get your feedback. Was it valuable to you? And while you're at it, go ahead and subscribe. Make sure you're part of the inner circle of all my subscribers. It has been really great having you here today with me. Thank you so much for joining me. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.