Powerful Communication for Business

Let's see. As leaders, we have to be adept at communicating with people in person, with people remotely, and people from all different backgrounds. And we now have workplaces that can have up to 5 different generations, all with their own communication preferences, with their communication styles, How the heck can we be effective at communicating with everything that is going on? And that's coming up next on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to Marc Haine Live! This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them work on their business, not just in their business. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, my guest is Communication Expert Brett Lavender. We will be talking about what it takes to be intentional with your communication to drive excellence on your team while leveraging the whole machine that is you to communicate more powerfully and effectively. But before we get into that, I just wanted to remind you that you can subscribe to this podcast. I'd love it if you would. And that'll set you up so that you can receive notifications whenever I bring you fresh new content. And while you're at it, go ahead and feel free to follow me on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and of course, on Instagram. And please use the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership so that you can be part of this conversation. I'd love to see what you have to share as well. Communication is tough during the best of times. With remote and hybrid workers, the constant information overload that we are experiencing, the Zoom fatigue, the normal communication barriers of non-verbal and unclear language, cultural and generational differences, all these different things have created now a real challenge. And They've really put us to the test, which brings me to our Question of the Day. So, where have you found your biggest communication challenge? Go ahead and share your experience on social media. Go ahead, share this episode. Use the hashtag #ExperienceLeadership and put down your comments. I'd like to again invite you to be part of this conversation as well. My guest today is the founder of The Persuasive Lion and the creator of his groundbreaking program, The Lost Languages. Brett Lavender takes a unique approach to both verbal and non-verbal interpersonal communication. He is a sought-after keynote speaker, facilitator, and coach. And Brett has been credited with helping individuals raise their self-confidence, elevate financial opportunities, and helping enhance personal and professional relationships. Welcome to the show, Brad. It's nice to have you.

Dude, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm really excited about this. Very, very excited to be here.

It's so amazing. We were talking offline and this connection that we have because we serve the same kinds of people with the same kinds of problems. And so, it's exciting for me to have somebody like you on the show.

Thank you so much for that. I'm excited to give. I'm excited to offer. Nice!

So Brett, maybe you could start off. First of all, maybe you could let us know. Give us— tell us a little bit about what you do for your clients. Who's calling you and how are you helping them out?

So, it's been a question of concern over the course of years. Brett, who is your target demographic? And unfortunately for me, it's a very wide range of individuals because I believe that my target demographic Realistically, humans, CEOs of companies, athletes, soccer moms, kids, high school students, college students, what I have learned over the course of years, all based on my own personal life experience, I'm completely self-taught at this, is that human beings in general have lost the ability to communicate interpersonally, probably Primarily based on technology, but also over the course of, you know, this last year and a half of pandemic, we've been forced behind a computer screen. And so my goal is to help people kind of move backwards in time and relearn these skills of how to communicate interpersonally so that nothing gets lost in translation and our thoughts and our ideas and our desires are heard.

Nice, nice. Communication beforehand, before pandemic ever hit was a challenge. Why is this an important topic? Why do we need this to be part of our leadership and our strategic planning conversations today?

My personal opinion, it is the most important topic because we all come from very different backgrounds. And we are living in times that are Very difficult and very challenging. The last thing we need is to not be able to communicate our thoughts and our emotions effectively. And I mean, the good news for me, but the sad news for society is that I found that people have really lost the ability to communicate with other humans and more importantly, how to communicate more effectively with themselves. The reality is This is the most important tool, the most important piece of machinery that we possess. Nobody really— well, I shouldn't say nobody. Most people that I encounter do not fully understand how important the thoughts that you think are in relationship to the way your machine operates. Every single thought that you tell yourself is going to create a reaction in your body, whether it's the dilation or constriction of your pupils.

Mm-hmm.

Whether it's your pheromones, these are things we can't control. They're subconscious. They're instinctive. And so I think that this topic, when talking to specifically business people but just humans in general, is the most important thing so that what you think about and what you utilize in your nonverbal description— you know, most people don't even listen to more than 5% of your words. They're responding to everything but your words. So with that being said, If we're communicating digitally, whether it's through text, or email, or Instagram, or Snapchat, or Facebook, how on earth are people supposed to receive all this other communication other than what we're writing down through a text message? Right.

I'm so excited to get into this with you because you've just kind of laid a seed for all the different topics that we're going to be talking about today. But throughout the pandemic, leaders have had to adjust Like crazy, right? First to online communications. Now, we have the hybrid work environments. Where do you think that we are falling down the most? Like when you are dealing with clients, what is the most horrendous kind of faux pas in the communication world?

Yeah, you know what's interesting? When I do a 1-hour keynote, for example, I can't move mountains in an hour, right? I can't change your life in an hour. But I can offer you what I consider to be the 3 most valuable, you know, quick takeaways that you can walk outside of the room with immediately after I'm done speaking and utilize to improve your communication skills. So for me, the 3 biggest issues are improper usage of eye contact. Eye contact, eye contact, eye contact. I cannot preach it enough. How many times have you been in conversation with somebody who is literally standing 2 feet in front of you. And they're like, oh yeah, wow, you know, I just yesterday I went to this thing and I had this great experience, or I met this awesome person. And they're just looking all over the place. And I'm like, woohoo, hello, I'm right in front of you. These are— and I, and I do talk a lot in cliché because I truly believe that every cliché is the truth because it was said 100 million times. That's how it became a cliché, right? The eyes are the windows to the soul.

Yeah.

So, if you want to take that, you know, more— less theoretically and more strategically, right, the eyes depict so much. It can be aggressive, it can be emotional, it can be sad, it could be friendly, it could be happy, it could be angry, it could be creepy, right? So, that's topic number 1 is realistically 90% of the people I encounter have no ability to make effective, what I call easy eye contact. And I use exercises to prove that point individually and in groups to show how different your brain reacts when you look directly into somebody's eyes for an extended period of time. Because most people have a hard time looking you directly in your eyes for more than 3.2 seconds before they get uncomfortable and feel like they have to look away.

Hmm.

That's number one. The second And this is, this is a deep concept which I'll hopefully get to talk about today. Vocal melody. And the problem that I see with vocal melody, and you actually, in talking to you prior to getting on the air, you have very good vocal melody 85% of the time.

Okay.

And I'm going to point out something. I talk a lot about what I call the vocal downturn, the great and powerful downturn versus the upturn. But then I also have an exercise that I can show your audience in terms of how using a 3-word sentence, if you just change 2 notes, 2 notes in the melody of that sentence, it changes everything. It changes the meaning of the sentence. It changes who you're talking to. It changes what you're thinking about and therefore completely changes how people react to you.

Hmm.

And then the 3rd and final most important thing, and I struggle with this myself, which is why it's so great, because every time I teach and I coach, I'm actually coaching myself.

Yeah.

Is understanding how to implement and utilize positive self-talk. This literally is just a remote control. That's all it is. This is a drone. So, if you've ever seen somebody or you personally have ever flown one of those drones, which I have not, but I could tell you that even a minor shift, a tiny little millimeter of a shift in the remote control Is going to change the direction, the altitude, what that drone does. That's the same with this. Every thought you think is going to create a physical chemical reaction in your drone. So you have to learn to be very careful about the information that you put into this remote control. Those are my 3 biggest, biggest points that I make with people. And those are the things that, like I said, within the confines of an hour— I hope to just give people a little bit of a tidbit that says, try this. Try this eye contact exercise with strangers on the street, with the cashier at the supermarket, with somebody in the elevator. Try this vocal melody technique that I'm talking to you about. And then I do have several techniques and skills and exercises that I give people in terms of how to control This crazy thing, which is literally the most powerful computer on the planet.

Yes, absolutely. You have a program called The Lost Languages. And I'm thinking that probably the 3 things you're talking about now are the seeds to that. I'd like to get into that and we'll get to that right after this.

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I am speaking with the Persuasive Lion founder, Brett Lavender. I mentioned at the top of the program that all the challenges that leaders are facing now with communication. And you've kind of created this seed with these 3 specific topics. In your opinion, are leaders ill-prepared to communicate effectively now?

Again, I keep going back to this same point. Yes, the simple answer is yes. But human beings in general, are ill-prepared. And it's a multi-generational thing. Unfortunately, for most people, a lot of the things that I teach are not taught in school. They're not taught at home. And so generationally, you're learning the communication skills that you're delivering from your parents, and they learn them from their parents, and you learn them in school. But unfortunately, like for example, a lot of these speaking courses just talk in basics. They don't really understand the nature of vocal melody. They don't teach how you think. They don't teach— and how, how you think relates to how you communicate and how you deliver. I've said this a million times. I'm hoping to say it enough times that it becomes cliché. The content is always less important than the delivery of the content. How you deliver Your information, how you convey your thoughts and your emotions and your feelings. And that means ironing all of this out so that they are speaking the same language. So to answer your question, yes, I do think leaders in particular are lacking in this skill set because management is definitely one of the most difficult. You could have the most successful business and be a terrible manager of people and real— not even realize that there are— hurt feelings, or boosted egos, or anger being built when you don't even realize that you're thinking a certain way. But you're not delivering that message effectively to somebody who may be very different or thinks very differently than you do.

Yeah, yeah. And but like you said, it's more of a human condition more than just necessarily just the leaders themselves. I love so far, I've been able to resonate with every one of your 3 points. This idea that the way we think, I've mentioned that before. In fact, in my book, I talk about a situation where supervisors were getting together in the meeting and they were talking about one of the employees. And they were talking in a derogatory way about this particular employee, how she's not very good. She's such a loser and all this. And I had to stop the meeting and pull the leader out. And I said, if We're talking about her now. How do you want those supervisors to go face-to-face with her later? And his argument was that, oh well, people self-filter. And it's like, you might be able to self-filter with the words. But you're not going to be able to self-filter with the attitude. What are your thoughts about that?

Well, first of all, let's clarify. People, most people are incapable of self-filtering. Okay? They hear a thing. Especially if it's coming from a higher-up, from a leader, and they immediately resonate with that information, with that communication. Hey, if the leader's telling us she's a loser, she must be a loser. Even if they like her, their impression still gets skewed, right? The reality is— so why do I call my company The Persuasive Lion? Because the art of persuasion versus the art of, let's call it manipulation. are very, very similar. They're almost parallel. The difference between manipulation versus persuasion is simple. If I am manipulating somebody, I am saying and doing things in the interest of changing their thoughts or their behavior for my own selfish interests, just because it benefits me. So if I'm manipulating somebody using these techniques that I teach, which is very dangerous, by the way, because they are powerful, it's a selfish act. It's a one-sided act. When we are persuading people, as in the case of this guy you just talked about, as a leader, and you want to persuade your team, you're using the exact same skills. You're saying and doing things to change their thoughts or their behavior in either their own best interest— Or our mutual best interests. So when you have a leader who is not effectively persuading their team in the right direction, they don't even realize they are shooting themselves in the foot.

Mm-hmm.

And they are creating dis— and that does not work well in the workplace, especially when you're dealing with all different kinds of animals that come from different educational, cultural, financial backgrounds, and they think differently. So when somebody says to me, oh, people self-filter, that's nonsense. You have to take responsibility to control the temperature in the room. You have to take responsibility to control your attitude and your energy and the tone of your voice and the melody that you're speaking to convey the message that's gonna empower the room versus detract from one per— I mean, all you're doing is being a bully at that point.

Yeah, yeah. And there's only 2 reasons why people become a bully. One is because they're feeling insecure and/or they want to feel powerful, right? It's absolutely amazing.

But they don't feel powerful. So, they use those tactics to make themselves feel more powerful about themselves. Ultimately, if you sit down after a conversation like that and you think about it, you look yourself in the mirror, If you have any empathy or moral code, you're going to feel badly about that. And I've learned through my good experiences, my bad experiences, you need to be very cautious about the thoughts that you think and the words that you choose.

Nice!

I love it. And it's the intent. And one of our guests on my show talked about intent versus effect. You might not have had the intent to hurt somebody's feeling. But the effect of your words hurts somebody's feelings.

It's exactly what I was just talking about, meaning you can be thinking a certain way, but if you don't utilize that thought and use this to deliver the message effectively, this is saying something very different than these. These are saying something very different than this. This is saying something very different than this. This is a language. This is sign language. You can convey emotions and thoughts and feelings through your hands. How do you think deaf people communicate on the planet? It's a language.

Yeah.

Whether people are picking up on it cognitively or consciously, which 9 times out of 10 they're not, but if you're sitting there, for example, in a conversation and you're shaking your knee the entire time, which people do subconsciously, you have to realize that's not happening on its own. Your leg is not shaking because your leg decided to shake. Your leg is shaking because something in your brain directed your leg to shake. So it's just being aware of that communication because it is a language. I always say to all the people that I train, especially as speakers, every ounce of your delivery counts. Every— from the minute you walk on stage to the way your face looks, to the way you scan the room with your eyes, to the tone of voice that you choose and the melody that you Every ounce of that is going to create a reaction regardless of whether you want it to or not. So, you could have a thought like you said about intention. You can have a thought and intend to— I don't understand why this person got so angry. I don't know why I hurt this person's feelings. I don't know why this person got mad at me. Well, because you had a thought but you had no idea how to deliver it effectively.

Love it. Love it. So, you mentioned a couple of times, you mentioned the word Languages. Can we delve a little bit deeper into what are the lost languages, which is of course your program? What should we be looking out for?

Well, first of all, 90% of it is everything but the words. Like I said earlier, people really do only pay attention to and respond to about 5% of your words. So, the lost languages as I've developed this program over the course of my life is everything but the words. Eye contact, body language, facial expressions, tone of voice, melody, pitch, even as importantly as when you pause, how you pause. All these things that we have forgotten about in terms of how to deliver a communication, because people just think you say words. If we all speak the same vocal spoken language, you should understand me, you should resonate with me. But that's not nearly the truth. So the lost languages are literally everything but the words. And I also do get into eloquent speaking techniques and understanding how to utilize your words. If you notice, and you're the same way as I've noticed, you very rarely stumble over your words. You very rarely say, uh, or, um. You know, I've got this proverbial backpack of words words and phrases, millions of words and phrases, and I think very visually, and I think 5 to 10 words ahead of what I'm about to say. Why? Because all I'm doing is describing an image in my mind. So that's what the lost languages are about. And then the most important category regarding the lost languages is, like I said, how you speak to yourself, how you self-talk. Because I'll just give you one little tidbit here. You know, how many times have we all said to ourselves, ugh, I'm such an idiot? Well, what people don't realize from a psychological perspective, that is the exact same or even worse sometimes than someone you know or an employer or a friend or a loved one saying, you are such an idiot. So we have to be very, very cautious about the words that we tell ourselves. And that to me is, is really the most important lost language that we have forgotten about, that we have control. This is all we have control over. This 6 inches of real estate between these 2 ears is the only thing that we have control over. Everything else is just something we are reacting to. And how we react to it is also a big part of this. How do you control your fear? How do you control your anger? How do you control your sadness?

And it's all controlled by how you think and feel.

1,000%. It's where it all starts and it's also where it all ends.

This is really fascinating, Brett. Hey Brett, could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with you? If this is resonating with you, I encourage people to reach out and connect with you because I think this is a really integral part of what we need to do as developing as leaders. Absolutely.

So my website is www.thepersuasiveleon.com. For those of you that can't spell persuasive, it's P-E-R-S-U-A-S-I-V-E, lion like the animal, dot com.

Nice.

When you go to that website, there's an opportunity for you to put in your email and you will get a video that basically outlines in like a 10 to 12-minute version the 3 things that I just talked about: eye contact, vocal melody, and self-talk. And then, there's also an opportunity on that website to contact us directly if you're interested in one-on-one coaching, seminar speaking, utilizing me as a keynote. And yeah, that's the best way to get in touch with me.

Fantastic! I'd like to get into some concrete examples of communication practices that people can use Right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you are getting tons, tons of value today. In today's episode, we're uncovering a lot of information about what we can do to effectively communicate and be aware of, and all the barriers that we have to face. Britt, you alluded to the entire machine. Now, you did talk about Brian. Brain, eyes, vocal cords, pheromones. Can we talk a little bit about how each of those are playing a role? We talked about brain already. We talked a little bit about the power of eye contact. But then, you mentioned vocal cords and kind of the melody that people require in order to communicate effectively.

I'm going to say 2 things. So number one, let's just talk about the sound of your vocal cords. They call these vocal cords For a reason, because it is nothing more than an instrument. So when you stimulate the senses, if you see something that's beautiful, whether it's a landscape or a painting or a beautiful individual, it stimulates your sense of sight. When you walk into a room and you smell something delicious, whether it's cookies baking or bread, or you even smell an individual who has a perfume on that That changes something in your brain. It stimulates your sense of smell. When you hear a beautiful piece of music, when you hear a beautiful singer, when you hear something that stimulates your sense of hearing, it shifts your brain. It shifts the way you're thinking. So, why would that be any different than utilizing these cords? My vocal cords are different, Marc, than your vocal cords. Everybody's got a different set of cords. They're different thickness, they're different length, they, they just sound differently. So one of my main focuses when I talk to people about, especially professional speakers, how do we tune this instrument? I could be the best guitar player on the planet. If my guitar is out of tune, it is going to sound crazy. Doesn't matter whether you're a musician or you understand music, it just doesn't sound right. So oftentimes I tell people, let's figure out the best pitch, the best, the best timbre, the best tone for your voice so that the minute you open your mouth, the minute you start speaking, you have an audibly pleasing tone to your voice because it makes it that much easier to listen to you.

And so, go ahead. I was just going to say, is this— so you mentioned professional speakers. Are you thinking from a leadership aspect as well that this comes into play?

Well, when everyone's a speaker, we're always— I train a lot of what I call MCs, Masters of Ceremony. But realistically, we are all masters of the ceremonies of our life. We are all public speakers. When you're speaking to somebody, you're public speaking. But specifically relating to leaders, if you have to run a group in a conference room, you are public speaking. I'm not talking about just professional speakers that have to stand up on a stage and deliver a message. I'm talking about a manager who has to sit in front of his 5 sub-managers and convey a message, convey an idea. So make sure that you are delivering it with excellence, and of course that includes the tone of your voice. But, but there's a bigger issue here. And I'm so excited to get into this one because it's almost magical, okay? Vocal melody is one of the most misunderstood nonverbal communication skills that I see in the world, and it literally goes across the board. So I'm going to show you one quick example, and then I'm going to tell you something about what I call the, uh, the great and powerful downturn. So I'm going to put— I'm going to show you a piece of paper that has 2 sentences on it. That are written identically, right? Both of those sentences say the exact same thing. Let's eat Grandpa. Okay? But if you look at this first one, okay, based on the accent marks, it says, let's eat Grandpa. Let's eat Grandpa. What does that mean? Specifically, based on those three words, that sentence said in that melody means "Come on, Grandpa. Let's go eat." I'm talking specifically to Grandpa. It's a happy thought. I'm thinking a certain way, and because I'm thinking that thought, I can't even almost control how my face reacts. It's "Let's eat, Grandpa." My eyebrows raised. My smile oh. My eyes light up.

Why?

Because I'm talking about going to eat with my grandpa. It's an exciting thing. Then we look at sentence number 2. It's the exact same 3 words, and I use this because how different could you possibly make 3 words, right? This one says, let's eat grandpa. So let's think about that. Let's eat Grandpa means what I just explained. Let's eat Grandpa, first of all, changes the entire meaning of that sentence. Okay? Secondly, I'm no longer talking to Grandpa. I'm talking to everyone but Grandpa. The thought is evil. It's pretty crazy. It means, let's go eat this old guy. Right? So my facial expressions change. I can guarantee you, based on my thoughts, the dilation or constriction of my pupils change, my pheromones change, and it changes the entire context of the sentence. Sentence, which you can't even call that a sentence, it's 3 words. Let's eat, Grandpa. Let's eat Grandpa. It changes immediately. As simplistic as that sounds is as potent as it actually is when it relates to communicating with others. And so when I talk about the vocal downturn, this is just one aspect of vocal melody that literally everyone— I, I can't— it blows my mind how nobody gets this. And the reason that nobody gets this is because it's never been pointed out. So watch. I've never called your cell phone, but— and I don't know what your outgoing message is, maybe it's just a phone number, right? But 99% of the Vocal, verbal, outgoing voicemails sound like this. Hi, this is Marc, and I can't get to my phone right now, but if you will please leave your name and number at the sound of the tone, I will get back to you as soon as possible. Now, consciously, most of humanity is not going to go, well, that sounded weird, because every phrase of that sentence was positioned as a question. Right? A downturn is designed as a command, a demand, a request. So listen to the difference. Hi, this is Marc, and I can't get to my phone right now, but if you will please leave your name and number at the sound of the tone, I will get back to you as soon as possible. It's It's literally primordial. It's from the time we were little kids. Anyone in a position of authority, a parent, a principal, a teacher, a judge, a police officer, anyone who is going to make a demand is going to use that downturn when they get aggravated, right? Marc, take the garbage out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Marc, come on, seriously, take the garbage out.

Yeah, yeah.

Marc, Take the garbage out now. Different.

Sure.

Subconscious, but different. And so I cannot count how many clients of mine have come back to me and said, that downturn thing is literally magic. Because for whatever reason, we as humans have been conditioned to respond more rapidly, more urgently to the downturn. And when now, you know, I have clients of mine that come back to me and said, Brett, you know, you actually ruined me because I can't even listen to people talk anymore. Because literally everybody, every— I do an exercise when I do like group seminars and I'll say, okay, Debbie, stand up. Tell me who you are, where you're from, what you do, and why you're here, right? Hi, I'm Debbie and I'm from Toronto. And I work for such-and-such law firm, and I'm here because I want to learn how to communicate better. And I'm like, do you not realize that subconsciously, instinctively, every single phrase sounded like a question, which is the way it registers in the brain? But if you persuasively use that downturn, people have come up to me literally in the thousands and said, It's unbelievable how people just instinctively, subconsciously react different.

Love it! I love it. And you know, this is where— so in my background in hospitality specifically, we have to be so conscious of how we come across, especially when it comes down to issues of harassment. So, looking at somebody going, hey Deborah, nice skirt, is much, much different than saying, hey Deborah, Nice skirt.

Right, right, right. Well, like I said, you, you just nailed it. I, I said this earlier, the delivery is always more important than the content. Yes, the delivery. And that has everything to do with not just the melody, but everything else. By the way, the second one you said, everything changed. Your facial expressions. And, and that's just the way humans communicate. So, more importantly than the thought is how you deliver the thought.

Right. What happens when we take all that out? What happens when we're solely relying on things like text messages, emails, like the nonverbal communications and the electronic delivery of messages?

Well, it's night and day. I mean, there's no way that you can affect— listen, I'm a writer. I'm assuming you're— I know you're a writer actually. You know, there's no way that most— there's no way that most people can write as effectively as they would speak. And so especially in this younger generation of millennials, when 99% of their communication is delivered through text message, email, Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, it's just so much gets lost in translation. You really— it's very difficult to convey an effective emotion and an effective You can't really allow people to get inside of your thoughts and your brain when you're communicating with words that are written on a computer or a phone. It's just, it's not even close. It's night and day. In my opinion, and maybe I feel a little old school saying this, text messaging should be for convenience. Hey, I'll be there in 5 minutes. Hey, I'm downstairs. Do you want me to pick you up anything on the way over there? Just like— I've been involved with people both romantically, friendship-wise, professionally, who want to have an entire conversation on text message, and I just refuse to do it. It just doesn't— to me, it doesn't work. I can communicate 100 times more information to you in a 5-minute conversation than I can do in a text message interaction that might take us half an hour. It's just a way more efficient way of communicating your thoughts and delivering Believable, authentic, genuine communication.

I love that. It's also been this idea that when people read a text message, they read it in the context of their mood. And so, you'll take an innocuous sentence. Let's say like, eat grandpa. Let's eat grandpa. An innocuous sentence. But if somebody's in a pissy mood, Then, they're reading that and going, why is he telling me what to do? Or if they look at the person sending it and their mind is saying, this person is somebody I shouldn't believe or I shouldn't give credence to, all of a sudden, they look at it and go, there he goes again. Something else.

Well, I'll tell you, let me piggyback on that. I've learned this lesson. One thing I can tell you is when When I make mistakes, I always add it into my program because I always learn from it. And especially, for example, in the heat of an argument, writing something down is way more potent and dangerous than saying it out loud. Because there's a phrase, say it, forget it. Write it, regret it. With technology is what it— as it is what it is, once you put something in writing, In the digital world, it's there forever. You cannot get away from it. Remember what you said to me a year ago when you wrote this text? Now I'm still mad about it. Versus in the heat of the moment saying something that you might regret, but you know what? It kind of dissolves over the course of time. Say it, forget it. Write it, regret it. So I, I never recommend that people have arguments or heated conversation via technology, email, texting, or what have you. I just think it's— Very dangerous. It's very painful. It's very potent and you can't get away from it.

Never hit the send button when you're angry.

Exactly, exactly.

So, we've kind of bridged this idea of in-person conversations versus the digital. Right now, the biggest I think challenge that people have right now is just this idea of information overload. As leaders, what do leaders need to know? What do they need to start adapting to in order to communicate effectively in an age where we might not even be face-to-face with people anymore?

Well, like I said, there's a very different category of learning how to communicate online versus in person. Okay? You really do need to make sure that your message is being heard not just based on what people are hearing but what they're seeing. I always say, You're going to get on an online conversation, especially as it relates to business. Act as if. Act as if you're in person. Make sure that your backdrop looks good. Make sure that you've showered and you look good and your shirt looks good and you— you know, I put my watch on today. I never really wear a watch, but I knew I was getting into a business conversation, so I prepared as if I was walking into a room where we were live and in person. Because ultimately, you want to try and make this virtual experience as real and as genuine as possible in a situation that's very challenging to do that. Like we said earlier, you know, you can't really make direct eye contact with somebody over the internet, over FaceTime. You can't do it. So you have to do whatever you can. I mean, I sprayed cologne today. Listen, I'm home in my home with my dog. Who cares if I'm wearing cologne? But you know what that did? It made you feel better. It shifts my thoughts. It shifts my perspective. It makes me feel like I'm actually walking into a situation that is live and will be perceived as much as is possible to be live in that way.

Interesting that you said that because as you mentioned, I did write a book. In my book, I talk about how important costumes are to our performance. And so, this idea that people can sit at the desk and not wear pants or not get out of their pajama bottoms and so on. I believe just like you were mentioning, we do things in the morning to set us up for the role. So, if I got up this morning and I just was going to work with concrete. As after this call, I have to do some repair work before winter comes.

Yeah.

Well, when I work with concrete, I put on crappy pants. I put on a sweatshirt that's not very nice looking and so on. I am prepared for that role. When I meet with a colleague or when I meet with a client, I want to be able to be ready for that role. And I think people do themselves a disservice when they say, oh, I'm just going to wear pajama pants.

Well, not only that but think about this. Like, I really do like your background. It's very appealing. It's very easy to look at. It's the same thing as I spoke about earlier about stimulating the senses. If you're looking at somebody or their background for that matter that's easier to look at, You're more inclined to pay attention versus how many times— I can't tell you, I won't even mention— one of my colleagues that I speak to all the time on Zoom is this all the time. Or like this. And I'm like, excuse me, can you please, can you please just move your camera so I can actually see your face? Because they don't pay attention. It's so distracting. And literally, when I say distracting, I mean that legitimately.

Yeah.

It distracts me. Hearing what you're trying to say to me. So make sure that your background looks good. Make sure that you feel good. Make sure that you smell good. Make sure that you brush your teeth. Do you know how many— I saw on the news, this was a long time ago when the pandemic first started, dental care had gone up by like 100% because people don't care anymore if their breath smells. But if you're going to be online and you're going to feel good about yourself, it all comes down to everything we've been talking about. It comes down to your brain. How do you think? How do you feel about yourself, which is going to change how you deliver and then ultimately change how others feel about you?

Love it! Brett, are there any cautionaries about what we're talking about today? Some people might be looking at this, listening to this episode and thinking, oh my God, I gotta change who I am. Any cautionaries?

Yes. First of all, You know, a lot of the skills that I teach offer people in this chaotic world that we're living in a very unfair advantage over others. They really are. You know, I'm also a certified clinical hypnotherapist. I just understand the brain. I understand neurolinguistic programming. This whole concept of the vocal melody is really very hypnotic and can be used either persuasively or manipulatively. So what I would say is when you learn these skills, which by the way do not come overnight, it's a long-term process. Behavioral changes are tough. Changing behavior, especially as an adult, is really, really tough. And then the other cautionary thing that I would, I would say is, you know, most people always tell themselves in the face of fear, I can't, I can't get on stage. I can't ask that person out on a date. I can't get this job. I can't make this sale. Well, if you tell yourself that, your body is going to have a reaction. So I'll give you one quick tip. You know, let's just use the sales argument as the point of discussion. I'm going into a sales meeting and I know this is the most important potential sale of my life. I have to get it. It's a game changer. So I am so nervous. I am so anxious. I am so panicked, right? So there's two philosophies that I have. Number one is, and forgive my expletive here, right? Fear and panic versus no fucks given. Because at the end of the day, oftentimes we talk ourselves into a failure, and because we're nervous or because Because we're anxious, we're going to deliver differently than we would if we were in control of that feeling. And so when I say fear and panic versus no fucks given, it's not that I don't care about people. It's not that I don't care about the world. I just have developed— and again, sometimes I struggle with it myself— a different relationship to the outcome. I can't bank on one individual interaction. Business-wise, personally, romantically, and think that that is going to be the end-all be-all of my life. So Richard Branson, in one of his speeches, says there's another bus coming in 10 minutes. I'm going to walk into this sales meeting, I'm going to do my best, I'm going to put my best foot forward, and I'm not going to have a commitment to the outcome. I can't control the outcome. I can just control how I Do everything up until the outcome. So that's part one. And that's a tough thing. I mean, I deal with it all the time. The other thing is this, you know, I used to have an issue with road rage, right? I used to get so angry when people on the road would do things that I found to be disrespectful, irresponsible, immature, you know, honking your horn, flipping you off, cutting you off. And so, you know, one day I got so I was so angry and this thought popped into my head and I said, okay, you're going to feel this way because this person generated a response. But instead of thinking, how do I feel? What if I stop and say, how do I feel about how I feel? So for example, If I'm nervous walking into a first date or walking into a sales meeting, or I'm angry because of this guy on the road, and I say, okay, I'm nervous. I'm going to be nervous. I can't— I don't have a giant eraser, you know, unless I take a Xanax. I don't have a giant eraser that's going to erase this anxiety or this nervousness or this panic. So if I say, how do I feel about feeling nervous? Well, if I say, oh my God, I'm nervous because of the fact that I'm nervous, that just makes me more nervous. That makes me nervous squared, exponentially more nervous. And that takes away from my opportunity to deliver the way I really want to. But if I stop and say, wait a second, you're going to feel nervous anyway. How do you feel about feeling nervous? Well, I'm actually okay with it because you know what? Anyone in my situation would feel nervous. So then subconsciously what happens is the overriding thought becomes, I'm okay with it. And some way, somehow, the nervousness starts to get diluted. When I talk about the road rage thing, I actually started laughing at myself. How do you feel about feeling angry? Well, if I'm angry because I let this guy get me angry, now I'm angrier. But if I'm like, I'm okay with being angry. This guy was a jerk. I should be angry right now. I actually started laughing at myself. And all of a sudden, before I knew it, anger was not even a thing. And so those are the 2 things: fear and panic versus no fucks given, and how you feel about how you feel.

Right.

And then I also have another whole dissertation on being playful and silly and understanding the nature of how to think that way when dealing with people, even if it's serious conversation. Because people are attracted to people that are comfortable being playful and silly. I always say, talk to people like you're talking to a 5-year-old or your dog.

And it's so funny that you said that because I was so uptight about how people used to— what I perceived people thinking of me. And then, once I got to the point where it was like, you know what? Why can't I just be me? Because you know what? In 100 years, nothing I say today is going to matter.

You know, 100 hours.

I know, I know.

None of it matters. None of it matters. So, you know, in one of my speeches, I always ask the audience at the end, so about public— about being in public and being exposed, what are you worried about? And the answers are always being rejected, looking foolish, being laughed at. And I always say, well, guess what? Who cares? Be laughed at. Do things in your life to intentionally be laughed at. Because if you can become cool with people laughing at you and you can kind of just brush it off and have that no-fucks-given attitude, then who can get to you?

Nobody.

Nobody can get to you. So for example, you're at a comedy show. And the comedian on stage is just shitting the bed. Horrible, right? They're hearing crickets, they're hearing chatter in the background, people aren't paying attention. Even worse, maybe they're getting booed. And you see the audience— or the comedian starts to cringe. You could see, you can almost feel, physically feel the their discomfort, and they're like shrinking on stage. The immediate reaction from the audience is this.

Ugh.

Why? Why is that? They don't like this guy to begin with, but why do they do that? Because they can identify with that discomfort. They can identify with the fact that this person is giving way more credence to what the audience thinks than the audience actually deserves. This guy was brave enough to get on stage and do that in the first In the first place, right? So the audience literally shrinks in their own seats like, oof, that's really uncomfortable. Watch. Same setting, same comedian, same comedian doing horribly on stage, same audience reacting the exact same way. And yet the comedian turns around and makes some kind of a— doesn't even have to be funny, just something that's almost a little bit self-deprecating, like, well, I guess this isn't going to work out. You know what I'm saying? Something that just allows that feeling to kind of flow over them instead of strangulate them. What does the audience do? 9 times out of 10, it's this.

Woo!

You know why? Because they identified with that courage. They identified with that attitude that says, man, this guy is fearless. He doesn't even give a half a shit about what you think. And you know what? He'll learn from that experience. And he'll move on to his next show and maybe he'll say one funny joke.

Well, knowing comedians like I do, comedians get up on stage with the intention of rewriting their content. So, they're looking for what is bombing, what is not working. Because the next time I get up, I'm going to be testing another word in that line or I'm going to be testing another phrase in that punch-up. So yeah, absolutely. That's the brave ones are the ones who are on that stage to get better.

FYI, it's exactly the same with what I teach. It's always testing new waters, testing new ground. You know, I, I tell people, you know, like we said, we're, we're, we're animals in the jungle. We're all very different humans. So work with your eye contact, see what works for you. You know, work with your voice, see what works for you. Work with your hand gestures and your body language, see what works for you, because what works for you will not work for me. And what works for me will not work for that person. This is a very individualized, detail-oriented concept that is specific to you and your body language and your brain and your machine.

And your intentions.

Yeah.

Yeah. Brett, this has been absolutely fantastic. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Sure. My website is www. thepersuasivelion.com. And on there you can put in your email address and get a free video of the 3 main topics that I teach. But I mean, there's thousands of them and thousands of hours worth of opportunity. And my person, my number's up there. You can get in touch with me through my publicist. There's all the information that you need is on one or more of the pages on my website.

Love it. And of course, it's all in the show notes. down below. So, scroll down and you can get Brett's, all Brett's contact details right there as well. Brett, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Appreciate your time.

I really do. I really appreciate that you brought your knowledge, your passion, and of course, your expertise with us today. And I can't thank you enough for that generosity.

Likewise. Thank you so much.

Take care. If you have any questions about today's episode, or you'd like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with yours truly along with your team, why don't you book yourself on my online calendar? The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetme.so/MarcHaine. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to this feed? Follow me on social media. And let's keep the conversations going. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.