Scaling with Trust: A Business Growth Essential

If you think trust is just a warm and fuzzy HR buzzword, you might be leaving millions on the table. In today's episode, we crack open the high-stakes reality of what happens when your company scales faster than your trust infrastructure. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And my guest today for this particular episode is the Growth Alchemist, David Miller. I think I have rented lips today. Today, we are going to be diving deep into the hidden currency of trust, how it builds empires, breaks deals, and why mastering it is the secret to scaling your business without losing your soul. So, stick around with us. This is probably for me one of the biggest and most important topics. So, my one ask is please make sure that you share this episode with your team and within your circle. By sharing it, when you know that people have a need and by sharing something of interest to you, you share your knowledge, the knowledge you pick up, and it's in service of other people. So, go ahead, share a link to this episode with them and tell them what maybe what even what you got out of it. I know that in your business, you've got the product. You've got the plan. You even have investors lined up. So, why does it feel like your business is stuck in neutral? There is a silent killer to your business growth. Try scaling without it and you're doomed. And that is the one aspect that I think is probably most important in business. And that is trust. And not just the handshake and smiles kind but the deep cultural trust that lets your team move as one even when the costs are high and the stakes are high. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, have you ever poured time, money, and energy into scaling only to realize that your team doesn't really trust the vision. Or worse, they don't trust each other. I invite you to be part of this conversation. So, please share your comments, questions, and insights as we dive into this issue. And if you'd like to be part of this conversation, go ahead and take the link for this episode. Share it on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership. Put your comments down. I would love for you to be part of this conversation. As I mentioned, our guest today is someone who knows really how to turn small businesses into 8-figure powerhouses. And he doesn't just rely on spreadsheets to do it. At the age of 20, David Miller advised Warren Buffett on a billion-dollar acquisition. Since then, he's completed dozens of mergers, acquisitions, and spin-offs across industries from fashion, clean energy, to finance and neuroscience. Today, David is known as the Growth Alchemist, helping leaders blend the intangible magic of trust with the measurable method of execution. So, whether you're scaling up or spinning out, David's approach to business growth is one part strategist, one part philosopher, and all heart. David, welcome to the show. It's so nice to have you.

Thanks for having me, Marc. It's a wonderful introduction. I appreciate the opportunity to be here.

Yeah, so before we get too deep into the topic today, could you tell us a little bit more about who your clients are and how you serve them?

Sure. And I'm a big fan of the concept of servant leadership. So, the partners that I work with and people that I help are leaders that have an elite mindset that have that grit and resilience and determination to grow and continue to scale.

I love that. And so, are they typically bigger businesses? Are they typically smaller businesses?

Typically under $50 million in top line. Now, what I've found is that, you know, if it's a startup that's funded or bootstrapped, The same type of elements as far as that desire and the need to have leadership to scale can be present at that less than $1 million or even at a $5, $10, $15 million level. So, yeah, I would say generally under $50 million.

Okay. You know, I think just before we started broadcasting, I mentioned how much I've been dying to do a show centered on trust. With everything that's going on in the world, it seems like trust these days is just kind of a mere suggestion. It seems in every rack of life now, people distrust their environment. So, what's going on? Why is this a virtue that is not more prevalent in business?

Yeah, it's very serendipitous. Great question, Marc. It's very serendipitous. I was driving to the gym today And I looked up and saw a billboard for some real estate company. It said, trust is earned. And that in and of itself lies the problem, is that whenever there are complicated issues and you want to tailor it to specific situations and how do you apply it specifically in business as, as we're talking about here and how to scale therewith, When the concept of juxtaposition comes into play, um, meaning there is a duality, then that it's really hard to get to the bottom of issues. And what I mean by that is, you know, trust isn't earned, trust isn't given, trust is a combination of those. So it's, it's not are you earning trust or are you giving trust, it's, it's how do you assess the situation from the vantage point of where you are. And then, what pieces do you need to put into place so you can give trust, so you can earn trust, and ultimately move forward with the team and the example here?

I get a sense that when people think about trust, they have different perceptions of what that means. Could we just quickly define? So, based in your world, how would you define trust to somebody who goes, oh no, I know people trust me all the time. They come into work. How do we define? Are we able to kind of scale trust or put trust on a scale that we can define that I have a high trust environment or I have a low trust environment? How can we define that for the audience today?

That's a great question. I wish there was just one definition that said, this is trust. So many different sayings out there explain it great, such as trust is the glue of life. Trust is one of the most fragile components that can be lost in an instance, but needs, needs years and years and years to continually strengthen. So, trust is one of those qualitative components that is very hard to quantify and to specify into words.

Mm-hmm.

It's really the method and the magic, or the logical and the unknown. It's combining those 2, the left brain, right brain, if you will. So, you can understand and really embrace that concept of trust and trusting others.

I'm always, when I think about trust, I'm always falling back onto Stephen Covey's description of the trust bank account, which to me was the first time that I actually had heard heard a model that went, as I was reading it, it's like, yes, I can see this. This makes sense. Where we all have a certain level of trust when we meet somebody brand new. And it's how we react to one another. We'll either put a deposit into the trust bank account or withdrawal. But then, when we're heavily withdrawn, that's when we know. That's when we kill business. We kill relationships. We kill all sorts of stuff. And it's much harder to kind of go back in and make deposits. over a period of time. What's your feeling about that whole metaphor of the trust bank account?

You know, I love that piece 'cause that's more of the logical component of it, Marc. You have the credits and debits. You can only go to that ATM and withdraw, i.e., take so much money out until your bank account's going to hit zero. And it's not going to go negative. And the bank or the counterpart in this example is not going to keep giving you money at some point in time. And that's where I kind of map that part over the logical component that you're talking about to that trust but verify. You know, if things don't make sense, if that energy, that feeling that you're sensing, whether it's in the first time you're meeting somebody or— and trying to establish and give that trust, or whether it's a level of trust has been established and things don't make sense, it's how do you ask curiously, empathically, and openly those questions where you can verify stuff that doesn't make sense to you.

Right. So, what do you think are the biggest misconceptions leaders have about trust?

The biggest misconceptions leaders have about trust.

Oh, by the way, if you haven't figured it out yet, I only ask really small questions.

You know, I think that's probably on a case-by-case basis as far as amalgamating that information. I think trust is probably most overlooked in that it's more energy than it is anything.

I like that. That's a great way to put it, more energy. Can we put that into a context for the audience?

Yeah. So, one of my closest business colleagues, there's— I'm actually thinking of 2 of them right now. There was just a very, very clear energy whenever I met Both of these ladies— they don't know each other— but when I met both of these ladies, and it was abundantly clear to me through our energy exchange and us just meeting and, you know, getting that sense of who this person is at their essence, I remember thinking— and she, she won't mind me using her name— Mariana. I'm like, this, this woman is extremely trustworthy and she is good for her word. And she holds that close to her heart. And we had not even exchanged words at this point when that feeling and that sense started, right? Um, we were sitting next to each other when, uh, I was in my MIT Entrepreneurial Master's program. Um, and like I said, before we started exchanging words, that it just— that, that energy started building up. So yeah, that, that's a component that's Kind of juxtaposition to the Stephen Covey, which I love as well, the whole bank account example. There, you know, that's not logical. You can't put that in a formula. It's just, you know, you got to bank that in your— or I bank that in my memory and, you know, use it accordingly.

Interesting.

And that's not to say whenever you meet people that might be really trustworthy that you won't If you don't get that sense or that feeling, they just may have, for whatever reason there is in the universe, you just may not sync up with them as quick. So, but that, yeah. So, that's my long answer to the short word of energy.

So, it's more kind of based on kind of intuitive, right? It's just that feeling that you get. We've all crossed paths with people like you said, sometimes we connect instantly. Other times, it's like, I don't know about this guy yet.

Yeah, exactly, Marc. You said it well.

So, we're talking about trust as far as scaling businesses. How does this all factor into the idea of scaling one's business? How is lack of trust holding people back? How does building trust help one scale much faster?

So, to answer that question, I'll break it down into 4 components and then separate those 2 components into the method and the magic or the logical and the creative, if you will, or the energy piece.

Sure.

So, in scaling a business, you have the strategy, you have the people, that's the creative side. And then, you have the logical side, which is the execution piece and the financial piece.

Right.

So, understanding— and they map over a little bit, but when you're looking at them holistically, the strategy and the people is very much the creative side of how to scale a business and the execution of the financial is very much more the logical and how you verify that. So, you have more of the—

Your clock is insulting you.

Yep, that's right. That clock knows that I'm cuckoo. So, um, so on, on that, uh, on that, that, that right-brain creative side, it's, you know, digging into the people. How do you get really creative with the people? How do you get really creative, um, and clear at the same time with the strategy? And then, on the logical piece with how do you execute, how do you have clear processes and systems in place for execution? And then, the financials, obviously, understanding the numbers and how to execute on those as well.

It really feels like it's like a puzzle coming together, right? It's that one is justifying the other.

Yeah, yeah. They very much work hand in hand.

Yeah. And so, what I'd like to do is I'd like to jump into some solutions on what leaders can do to take a step now to create that puzzle, to bring it all together so that it helps them understand the components that might be missing as they're trying to look at their business and say, how do I scale this upwards? How do I move forward with this? How does it all fit together? And we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a Welcome back. I am here with David Miller, author of The Wealth David, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book?

So, whenever I was in the financial space, we ran about $1.5 billion in funds and advised small businesses. And what I quickly picked up on over my first 5 years or so and And working, when I was working one-on-one with clients and businesses, is that people make decisions based on money. Sorry, people make decisions for their money based on emotions. So, the best way to help someone is being self-aware of what those root and base emotions are. And that way, they can make smart decisions about their money. So, I created 7 different avatars.

Yeah.

that had a superpower and a kryptonite and made it kind of a game. So, how do you understand what avatar or avatars you are? How do you understand your superpower and your kryptonite? And then, how do you achieve wealth beyond money, not just the financial part, but how do you achieve wealth as a result thereof?

I love that. I love that. I love that. I love that you kind of focus on the dichotomy as well of kind of the superpower and the kryptonite, the things that are holding us back. Because sometimes, that can be more powerful than whatever superpower we do have, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. We're talking about scaling on the back of high-trust cultures. How can rapid growth really outpace companies' cultural development? We've seen time and time again that people will scale their businesses. People will start opening up more locations, doing all sorts of stuff when Really, financially they might be ready. But culturally, they weren't. So, how can they look at where they are and know that they're— what are the warning signs?

So, one of the business lessons that I've learned is the quicker a business can identify and address the real issues that are holding the business back that no one is going to tell you, or very rarely do people tell you, the quicker those decisions can be identified, addressed, and communicated with the team, the faster a business is going to move. And the best way, in my experience, to identify what those factors are, especially in a high-growth scaling business, Is to understand how to trust yourself. Yes, trusting others, that's, that's a whole part of the equation. But, you know, taking aside, setting the ego aside, setting the desire to, to grow really big, setting aside all those, you know, positive things that have gone with the business, how do you How do you put that aside, take a look, say, hey, what are the problems that are brewing here? How do we address them? And, you know, if you're the CEO of— if you're the leader or captain of the ship, then it is your responsibility to identify those. Now, whether hints of information come to you through your leaders or whether you have to gather it by watching the landscape, It's identifying those issues, trusting yourself, and then addressing them with the team.

The one thing that really stood out to me was when you said you have to trust yourself. When I talk to a lot of leaders and I ask why they do certain things, as I mentioned prior to the show, I've been privy to being able to go into these businesses and help them kind of overcome their barriers to their business, especially when they've been doing the same thing for 20 years. And now, all the things they know isn't working. And When I go to them, they tell me point blank that, I know my business. Nobody can tell me how to run my business. Where does this idea when you're saying leaders have to trust themselves, where does the whole virtue of humility fit in? Another little question.

So, if I understand, So, where does the virtue of humility come in when it comes to scaling a business? Was that the—

To trusting oneself. Because a lot of people will say, I'm the boss. I know what I'm doing. That doesn't necessarily mean that they trust themselves. And they might not know. They might be so focused on the logic side of the equation that they're not focusing on the emotion side of that equation in the scaling process. And so, how does humility play into it?

So, for me, that's a great question. We're going deep here quick, Marc. So, for me, humility was taught through me not removing my ego, me not trusting myself, and me making poor business decisions because I allowed those components to cloud my judgment. And that's why I said, for me, humility, how does that apply? Is, you know, what I have learned is that they— there's a saying that resonates with me is that, you know, often your greatest mistake, for me, it was a financial mistake, about a $10 million mistake. can be your biggest gift and learning opportunity if you're open to it. And so, yeah, it was a $10 million hit to me that really hit me with a dose of reality as far as how to trust people, how to be humble in situations, even more so than I felt like I already was. Yeah.

So yeah, it's interesting because as you were saying that, I right away flashback to different interactions I've had with entrepreneurs and business operators and even managers. And thinking along the line of that, again, they hang their ego into what they do. They define themselves by what they do. They're proud. They go to like the local Chamber of Commerce. They're proud about what they've created. But that And that ego gets in the way maybe sometimes of them not even having the humility to say, I don't know it all. I need to hire somebody to help me with this. Is that fair? Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, I think that's a great assessment. And identifying what one's self-limiting beliefs are and being able to work through that, having someone that's a trusted Mentor, partner, spouse, coach, whoever that person might be. It is a great way to help unpack all that in my experience.

So, what happens when leaders focus too heavily? We have the logic side and the trust side of the business execution. What happens when we focus too heavily, let's say, on the logic and we try to execute without building this trust muscle?

Well, for, for the, for the logic side, um, I feel like that the human touch element is lost. Because if you're just looking at a spreadsheet or a formula or a Kaizen lean process, it's easy to forget how emotions play into all that and how human mistake, which happens, continues to happen for for even the best of us, how that is not necessarily accounted for in a process. Because if you follow a process, it's just 1 1 2, and it should work that way every time. And when those components aren't there, then it's easy to have less tolerance. Right. So, just having that human element, knowing it's going to play in to that process and being able to adapt, or at least pause and maybe slow things down whenever the logic isn't making sense.

Listening to this, like I'm sure people who are tuning in are going, oh, he's just described my situation. Oh my goodness! Before we go any further, if this is resonating with the audience, how can they get in contact with you?

Do not Google me. My name is David Miller and you'll probably find 5 million of us. No, just davidmiller.buzz on Instagram or alchemyofscale is my website, Marc.

Okay. We'll make sure to put the link in the show notes. You were talking about that and again, as you were talking, I get kind of this flash of of kind of situations that I've been in where it's like, oh, if you get this, then it'll change everything that you're doing. It seems to me that there needs to be this balance between the trust and the strategy, bringing in this human thing that you said that the financial statements just won't account for. For decades, for a millennia, we've been looking at like employees as being an expense to our business. That failure is an expense to our business. How do we create a culture where failing forward is actually kind of supported rather than kind of chastised?

For me, it comes down to that saying of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again. And Expecting a different result. And, you know, having a culture where it's okay to fail, it's very clear and communicated to employees in the organization, it's okay to fail. But it's only okay to fail when we choose to learn from our mistakes and how we— and how not to make those mistakes again. So, so we're not insane.

Exactly. And, you know, it's interesting because there are like when it comes down to things like innovation, Having this culture of let's give it a try and let's see what happens means that we take strategic risk without saying, okay, let's invest $15 million on this new widget and let's see what happens. It's like, oh, that seems like an expensive test. So, being able to balance it, how does one look at this idea of innovation and Failing to try, trying to fail. How does that look internally as far as this idea of having a culture of trust?

I think 3M is probably one of the best examples that I learned from. Back when they— or this was before McNerney. They had— they're famous for their Post-it note. And I can't remember their specific mission statement and purpose statement. But it's all about innovation and embracing that and creating that type of culture because the Post-it note was made by accident.

Mm-hmm.

I think they may have even spilled a beaker or something like that. And it got on a piece of paper. But what they were using that formula for had nothing to do with the sticky note.

Right.

So, but it's having that openness of trying new things and knowing that there is a likelihood it's going to fail, but the intent there is good. And then, learning from it and magical things will happen thereafter.

And 3M is a perfect example of what happens when you look at failure and go, oh, what opportunities does this present? Because to your point, they actually shelved the formula. for a period of time. I'm not sure how long. But then, somebody came along and they go, but wait a second. I remember that we did this one thing. And then, they went and they researched and they go, yes! And lo and behold, they took a failure and turned it into something successful. And we see that businesses do this all the time, that the successful ones will do this. You have, when it comes down to this trust and scaling, and you have this Method and Magic framework. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Sure. Yeah. I mean, it's largely what I've been alluding to in different pieces throughout. It's having— one of the quotes that I say is, transformation is where the unknown becomes your competitive edge. So, what does that word unknown mean? And how does it create your competitive edge? So, when you're in that unknown space, then when you find out what that unknown is, that provides opportunity. And the only way to do that is to balance things with the left brain, the right brain, the creativity, and the logic. the intuition and the processes. So, it's knowing that these forces that are juxtaposed and it's not one or the other that gets you to the answer. It's that alchemistic process of combining the two that creates just amazing solutions.

And so, what mindset shifts do leaders need to have to treat kind of this unknown as a competitive advantage? Because to us, the unknown usually is hugely fear-based. It's something to be avoided. And so, how do we turn this into the competitive advantage?

Well, I think that's something that is largely on the leader's shoulders and understanding what that unknown is, how the company is approaching that. And then providing a clear vision to the entire organization and their leaders so they can begin to understand it and know that fear is what is holding a lot of us back and why we're not moving forward in many ways. And once we actually move past that fear, after you get through it, it's like, oh, that wasn't that bad. So, helping employees and your leaders If they're not having employees, if they're not leaders, is just to help them know that it's okay to be scared. Courage isn't not being scared. Courage is moving through that fear and understanding that the most courageous of leaders are scared too.

They just know how to move through it through practice and practice and practice, I think, provides Do you have, and I hate to ask, but do you have any stories about to put this into context? Because I think it's nice to say and I think it's easier said than done. But do you have an example of where somebody, where a leader challenged the unknown in spite of all the fear, in spite of the risk, and came out the other end with a stronger team and basically a stronger product and service?

Yeah. So, there was an acquisition that I did in, I think it was around 2014. And it was a leveraged buyout, meaning that the company that I was acquiring was larger than me that had more systems in place. That had a lot more experience, had a lot more intel. And so, I knew I was biting off more than I might be able to chew. And that was very exciting for me as an entrepreneur seeing all the opportunities. But I would be lying if I didn't say it was very scary. Like, how am I going to do this? And I did not know how. So, I was honest with my team, straightforward with them. They knew there were things that I didn't know, that I didn't have answers to. But, you know, being vulnerable in situations and saying, hey, we have not approached these types of situations, but we're going to figure it out together. We're going to communicate on this. This company's managed to do it. We're a strong unit. Although we might be smaller, we're a strong unit together and we're going to be able to overcome this. Is that specific enough for you, Marc?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Ultimately, again, it boils down to this idea That as a leader, you had humility. And then, you had the trust in your team to be able to help them support you. And you were there to support them. It's funny because I think all too often, I think as operators, we fail to de-risk risk. We fail to de-risk the consequences to our teams. I know that I've worked in municipality where I really felt that People were always on pins and needles about their job security. It's like, if I mess this up, they might fire me. If I do something, I might get fired because there are so many different cogs in the wheel in a municipality because you have council is kind of the chief people. So, if you piss anybody off in council, you just never know that they're going to go to your boss and oh my God! And then, you still have the hierarchy of the organization. And it just seems like for me, that was an environment where people were walking on pins and needles about and nobody really taking a chance to do anything. It was like, we did, okay, here we're going to do this annual project. We'll do the same thing as we did last year.

Right?

And it becomes this whole mindset of keep doing what we've always been doing because ultimately, it's safer.

You know, you, you make a really good point there. And I do not remember the lady's name. It was a TEDx talk I heard maybe 5 or 6 years ago. And she did a study on trust and how the most trustworthy teams operated. And her case studies that her— the people that she used in her studies They were medical teams that were dealing with patients. And what they found was when they looked at all the numbers, the most trustworthy, most cohesive, the best-performing teams, they weren't the ones that made the least mistakes. And then many times, they actually made more mistakes than even the bottom decile.

Wow.

And but what they found was, is that the people on the team, the quote lower-level people, they weren't afraid to tell their superiors or their direct reports that they had made a mistake because they knew it was a cohesive team, that they were trustworthy, and that they would learn from it as a team and they weren't going to get a slap on the wrist. So, yeah.

Hmm.

I agree with you there, 110%, Marc.

Yeah. And so, that's something I challenge the people who are tuning into this. Take a look at your processes. Do you do anything to de-risk people taking chances? And how does that help you? Because I have a sneaking suspicion. You mentioned earlier about your book about superpower and kryptonite. And I do believe that everybody on our team has superpowers. And I find that all too often, leaders constrain their teams within their job descriptions. And you don't realize that these people actually have magical superpowers that you've never tapped into. But that's just my philosophy there, David.

Yeah, and I'll throw a book out there. I have no vested interest in it whatsoever since you referenced it is The Great Game of Business. I know there's probably a lot of listeners in your— here for your podcast, Marc, that maybe they don't feel like they're experienced or they're learning trial by fire. And, but Jack Stack wrote The Great Game of Business. And what he did was he educated gross margins, net profits, to what many may think are very complex topics. He just explained it in very simple terms for his blue-collar company. They understood it, they embraced it. And, you know, they created systems and processes based on those gross margins or those profitability targets, and they blew it out of the water. So, it's, you know, a lot of this isn't rocket science. You don't have to have scored a 1600 on your SAT to understand this stuff. And in many cases, that can even make it harder for you to do it. But analysis paralysis. But yeah, I agree.

It was amazing because a few years back, I can't even remember the name of the program. But it was something about they tapped into the experiences of a whole bunch of multi-millionaires. And to me, it was amazing how many of them were dyslexic and did horribly in school, right? And it's like, isn't that interesting that you have all these brilliant people who by societal standards were failures because they failed high school, they dropped out of college, right? And yet, they just kind of rose up and their superpower just came to the forefront. And so, it amazes me that we to this day still have that.

You know, that's one of the reasons I— one of the many reasons that I love my parents so much is that I always challenged things, never wanted to conform, um, and did not want to go to college, did not want to take AP classes, did not want to, did not want to, did not want to everything. And, you know, my parents saw the talent inside me that I had, and they forced me to learn, for lack of better words. And they had some great tricks that they played on me along the way. So, they allowed me to work full-time in college. They allowed me to work full-time in high school. And but I was able, like you said, you know, some of the most— same here, some of the most successful entrepreneurs Business owners I know, they didn't even go to college. And they learn in their own way. So, the fact that my parents granted me that formal education and I could learn things that way and then go apply it in the business world is something I'm eternally grateful for.

Amazing, eh? So, for those people who are tapping into this conversation and inspired to start making changes today, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and some pitfalls that leaders should be aware of as they try to implement some of these mindset shifts. And we'll get to that right after this. When you're delivering an important speech to a huge audience, it's easy to lose your place or go way over time. Give yourself an advantage with the Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app. No more checking your watch or calling for time. The Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app It keeps you on track with easy-to-see timers, even changing color for visual prompts during your speech. And you can set audio cues to practice or set it to vibrate so you don't even have to look. Be the pro you know you are. Download the app at speakerpresentationtimer.com. Welcome back! We are having a phenomenal discussion and I hope you're getting tons of value from it today. Clearly, both David and I are deeply committed to supporting you and your team. So, if you would like us to Come in. If you'd like to explore how we could be of benefit to you either for an upcoming conference or leadership retreat or to help with an immediate problem that you are experiencing, drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. David, scaling with the foundation of trust from a business perspective is one component. How do CEOs start How do you coach CEOs who want to reach their growth ceiling but you want to help them surpass it? What do you do to help coach them through that?

It's really easy in a sense in that—

A whip? Carrot and sticking?

Yeah, you just press a button and it happens. No, I'm really specific In that I choose to work with people that, like I'd mentioned before, that have that desire to learn. They have that element of humility, that element of vulnerability.

Right.

And whenever you have a CEO who already has an organization, especially already has a leadership team, even if that team isn't built out and they're willing to learn, I'm simply just relaying and conveying the experiences that I've had, which is typically further along in the business growth, maturation, sales cycle, and all that— sell cycle, excuse me, not sales cycle. So, I've dealt with those waves of ups and downs with the businesses through the mistakes and successes that I've had. It's me just explaining those situations as they arise. And they're, they're not always orange-to-orange situations, um, and they're not apples-to-oranges either. They're oftentimes, they're like a lemon and an orange. So, they're similar but, um, you, you explain your lemon situation and they have their orange situation. And the leader is so willing to learn and is so sharp and is putting the purpose of the company First, that they will turn— they will see my lemon situation and just know how to turn it into their orange, if that, if that makes sense.

Hmm.

So, really just being there as a support system for them. So, one, they know that they're receiving sound guidance coming from experience, but, um, and, and that, and that they have a sounding board, um, if it's, if it's not clear to them. So, it's easy. You just be present, right?

Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's like they have a sounding board but they also have an outside perspective. So, nobody can get an outside perspective on themselves. They're in their own little bubble, right? And so, being able to tap into an outside perspective I think is really the key, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah. That's better put. I like that, Marc.

For people who are, they know that they have some work to do. Are there any cautionaries, pitfalls that people should be aware of if they need to start shifting the temperament of their culture, the kind of focus of their culture? What should they be aware of?

That typically comes down to what's the strategy of the company. What's the long-term vision? How is that vision cast out into the organization? And then, after that is identified, start seeing where the breakdown is. Is the vision clear? Has it been communicated to everybody? Is it being embraced by everybody? And that can go as granular as, hey, what are the core values? What are the dos and don'ts with that specific value? Are we hiring and firing and rewarding people based on whether they do or don't act in accordance with those core values? So again, that whole strategic piece, that high-level guidance as to what are some of the macro factors going on with the organization and then how do you address it as a result is generally a good place to start.

That's brilliant. What cautionaries or what advice would you give to people who are testing unknown outcomes, fear failure? How do they overcome that? What's the one thing they need to do to shake themselves out of that mindset?

Take a look at your leadership team. If you clear your mind, take a look at— let's say you have 4 leaders. Take a look at each one individually and say, hey, if— would I enthusiastically rehire Jane Doe? And if you can't confidently say yes, that's a problem. And then, if you look at John Doe and say, would I confidently rehire John Doe? You're like, yes. Okay. Well, let's embrace that. How can I bring John Doe under my wing? How can I provide him more love than I have been? Because what I found is that a lot of times, if the people, the right people aren't in place, you're not saying right people in the right seats on the right bus. If they aren't in place, then everything else starts to break down and other problems magically arise because of those A-players that you do or don't have on your team. So, it all comes down to the people. And you're the leader. You're the captain of the ship. And if you're not very clear as to the right leaders that are in place, your lieutenants, For lack of better words, if those people aren't in place, then the failure is going to continue to come.

Would it be fair to say that when you do that assessment with your leaders and you're looking at— and we mentioned Jane Doe— would you enthusiastically rehire Jane Doe? If the response to it is no, would the next question be, is there anything I can do to create a situation where I would be able to enthusiastically rehire Jane Doe?

So, if you wouldn't enthusiastically rehire her and you're objectively looking at it based on the output and the effort that she has given to the organization, then I would say no. There's— you've just made a mistake.

Right.

So now, the question becomes is, you know, how do we part ways in a respectable manner. Because odds are, if you think that about this employee, then they have very similar sentiment. And addressing those issues, like I said, those unknown issues that those— the CEOs need to identify that a lot of people aren't going to tell, or most people aren't going to tell you. You identify that issue, then you start working through it, and think— then the, the employee is going to naturally— it's going to separate in most instances in a very healthy manner. And they'll be grateful for it too, that you've been able to identify it. But it's when those— so, it's not just necessarily that cut and dry. If it's, I don't know if I would enthusiastically rehire them. I have— I think I would, but I'm not sure. I think that there may be a B or a B+ player. Can I graduate them to an A player? Yeah, I think that's doable. And I think if you look at how were they onboarded, how were they put into their role, what have they been doing, what have been their clear KPIs or clear job duties and responsibilities, has that been clearly communicated to them, or how could I have communicated it better? Start taking a look at those items. And they may naturally and quicker than you may expect rise up and become that A player when you maybe thought they were a B or B+ player.

Right. But again, it does revolve back to this idea of humility because as a leader, you're looking and going, is there anything I missed to help this person become that A+ player? Right? Rather than blaming them and going, oh, they must suck. I know that a lot of business owners A lot of people when I ask them why are they dealing with a toxic employee or a leader that doesn't have all the capacity and so on. And one of the mindset philosophies that I see come to the forefront is, it's better to deal with the devil you know than the devil you don't. What are your feelings about that?

So, does it mean it's okay to deal with a toxic employee?

So, again, the fear of making a change is so strong because they don't know what they're going to get when they start pushing. Like, let's say they push out and they say, I have a leader who's lacking capacity. We've tried to work on them. We should do something. And so, they decide, okay, I'm going to go out and I'm going to find a new leader to replace this But there's also this mindset of, well, at least I know James. At least I know how bad he is so I can compensate and we can work around his weaknesses. As opposed to saying, you know what? We need to wash our hands of this. We need to bring in somebody with higher capacity. But there's a whole fear around that because you don't know necessarily what you're going to get in the end.

I would lean, at least in your question, I would lean towards more of the logic side and addressing this one and asking the questions of, okay, so I hear you saying that Jane Doe is not performing, that Jane Doe is having problems, and you're willing to sacrifice your time that is very valuable to help the greater good of the organization and do more impactful things. to put fires out for this person and to do her job or his job for them. Or you're okay with employees that you care about that are carrying their weight. You're okay with them picking up the weight of this employee and them being fine with that. So, if someone wants to consciously make that decision as a leader, then it's going to be In my experience, it's going to be pretty difficult to deal with the devil that you know.

Right. Well, and that's a great— and I hope people tuning in, if they're ever in this, if you're in this situation, take that rewind and replay that one segment because I do know that all too often, there is that emotional thing of, I'm afraid to make the choice, make the change, right? And so, it's been tough. David, this has been such a great discussion. Do you have any last words about what we've been talking about today?

No, other than to highlight my quote. And it's a pretty deep quote if you think about it. Growth is a transformation where the unknown becomes your competitive edge. There's so many layers to that. Even to a leader who's somewhat new all the way to someone who's very advanced, it applies in so many different way. So, tackling that fear, identifying that fear, getting through your self-limiting beliefs, all that stuff. I would encourage all the leaders listening out there to enter that unknown space for themselves.

Love it! That's very empowering. David, thank you so much for being here with us today. Thank you for sharing your passion, your expertise. It's been a great conversation. Lots of learning outcomes. And it's been a— I believe it's a super Valuable way to spend the last, oh, 54 minutes. So, I thank you for your time today.

Thank you so much, Marc. It was a pleasure to be on here and chat with you. Love your energy.

Thank you. Hey, why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? When the spotlight shines on your business, our customers applaud. Wrong button. Wrong button. I wanted to do This button. Where is it? Where's the button now? Oh my goodness! Don't you love it? And this is why I don't edit because at the end of the day, it's— Let's try that again. As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It would be my honor to be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? Did you get lots out of it? And drop me a note. DM me on social media and just say, hey Marc, I really— this is what I learned today from this episode. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare To be the exception.