The 4 Rooms Formula: Build Resilient Teams and Boost Productivity with Cate Collins

Too many businesses are losing their best employees, their most loyal customers, and their competitive edge. And they don't even realize the root cause. When leaders burn out, it doesn't just hit the leaders. It takes down teams, businesses, and bottom lines faster than you could say productivity decline. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, A podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, Customer Experience Expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode! I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And my guest for this episode is Leadership Expert and Burnout Survivor Kate Collins. And today, we are going to be tackling the silent business killer Burnout. We'll uncover how it's impacting your leadership, your team, and your bottom line. And more importantly, what you can do to stop it in its tracks. So, stick with us. Now, this is such an important topic and a lot of people won't admit or seek help until it's too late. So, my one ask if you're watching this today is please, please, please share this episode with your team, And within your circles. You know, it's funny when we hear content and conversations around issues like this, it really helps to normalize the issue and remove the stigma around weakness. So please share this episode. That way, we can normalize this conversation and it'll be easier for people who are suffering maybe to step forward and ask for help. How often do you yourself feel like you're juggling flaming swords, trying to keep your team engaged, your clients happy, and your sanity intact? If you're anything like most leaders, it's probably more often than you'd like to admit. But then, here's the thing. When you're running on empty, it's not just your well-being that suffers. Your team feels it. Your customers see it. And your bottom line takes The hit. The real kicker? You might not even realize just how big an impact this is having on your business and your operations yet. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, are you unknowingly driving away your best employees and customers because you're too burnt out to show up as the leader that they need? If you didn't know, then how would you know? But I invite you to be part of this conversation. And as I mentioned, please share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and please share your experience. Because again, the more we talk about it, the more we normalize it, the more it becomes less about weakness and more about being transparent and getting the help that we need. I will tell you, today's guest is someone who knows all too well the toll that leadership can take on our mental, physical, and emotional well-being. Kate Collins is a leadership expert with over 25 years of experience inspiring leaders and their teams across the globe. From working with the US Army and General Motors to facilitating transformational retreats in Costa Rica and beyond, Kate has dedicated her career to helping leaders like you thrive by building resilience and showing up authentically. Her journey is deeply personal. She turned her own burnout into a powerful mission, founding Powerful Journey Consulting to help leaders avoid the same pitfalls. Kate's approach combines practical strategies with heart guiding leaders to address the real issues draining their energy and stalling out their teams. She's also the author of the number one leadership book, The Powerhouse in You, a resource praised for its ability to help leaders tap into the resilience, courage, and confidence they need to lead. Kate's here today to share her insights and empower us to take control of our well-being. Because let's face it, if we're not at our best, our teams and our businesses can't be either. Kate, welcome to the show. It is so great to have you. It's been a long time coming.

I know. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you, Marc, for having me.

So before we get too deep into today's topic, could you just tell us a little bit about who your customers are, who you serve, and how you serve them?

So my clients really are not-for-profit organizations. They are associations. They are medium to small size businesses. They are a lot of mental health hospitals because I have an extensive mental health background. So I work with doctors, a lot of clinics, work with the doctors, the nurses. And so just really supporting them and basically how to loosen up their underwear and be the best version of themselves possible.

I love that. Unknotting the knickers. So Kate, getting into what we're talking about today, I know a lot of people will look at their reality and go, hey, that's just the way life is. What does burnout typically look like in a leader, and how might one recognize it in themselves?

Great question. So for me, a lot of times, it's something is out of character. So if I'm somebody who normally self-regulates, meaning self-regulation, meaning that I don't overreact, I'm able to take a pause, I'm able to just filter what I'm going to say prior to doing it. Now, if that's not my— if normally I'm like that, and all of a sudden I find myself overreacting, I find myself, you know, snapping at my kids or whoever's at home, whether it's a 4-legged baby or a 2-legged baby. I think a lot of times what happens is what people forget is in a burnout state, having been there myself, is that oftentimes you're putting your hand up when you need not to be. So it's like you're already, so to speak, drowning in the tasks and all the responsibilities, and then you keep putting your hand up for more, and then you start to feel anxiety. You start to, perhaps your body is letting you know, it's giving you various cues. However, you might be ignoring it. So it's more common than not. Like when I started this 25 years ago, it was the prevention of burnout. Now it's like we're in it or you've already experienced it. Now what do we do? So it's a good question about asking about the signs, Marc, because I think each individual is different. However, there's some similarities and that usually is, you know, all of a sudden I'm having difficulty sleeping. Maybe I'm overeating sugar. Maybe I'm, as mentioned earlier, maybe I'm snapping at people. I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm personalizing things that really isn't even about me. Perhaps I'm taking on way too much. So those are some of the signs.

So a lot of what you mentioned as signs are something that people would feel or see for themselves, but there's going to be external patterns of behavior that other people will see. And so what will other people see that might warrant a conversation or an intervention that the leader is running on empty?

Well, I think for sure, if you see people kind of get quiet when you enter the room, that's usually a flag. I think that certainly if people turn their head away and they're not giving you eye contact, that's certainly a flag. When you maybe don't get invited to certain meetings because they're thinking, whoa, he or she is going to be so big in their response, let's just maybe give them the summary of our meeting. So, there's that sense of not feeling psychologically safe. Sometimes that can happen. I think that oftentimes too, leaders think they have a really good— we know through Forbes that there's been a lot of research done that most leaders think They have a real connection, and they get a pulse on what their team is doing. However, there's a lot more that don't. There is a disconnect there. So it's really, really important. And we'll talk more about those strategies momentarily. But I think it is really, really important that we take a look at how am I showing up? And so part of that is I need to have some self-awareness.

Let's talk about the plague of stress because obviously, if the leader is feeling it, they're feeling burnt out. How is that manifesting itself within team dynamics?

Again, I think that what happens is each individual, of course, let me give you an example. So working with a leader, I do a lot of leadership coaching, and she just said, oh my gosh, during a meeting, one of my managers just kind of blew up at somebody. And that's out of character for her. So that certainly can happen. So all of a sudden now somebody takes it on, takes it on, takes it on, takes it on, and then eventually blows up. That could certainly be it. I think that it can be very subtle too, Marc. Sometimes it's passive-aggressive. Sometimes it's like, oh yeah, I'll do that, but then not get it done and not meet deadlines. So there's a brewing frustration with colleagues or with superiors with that team member that they're not delivering. And a lot of times it's because they're over their head. They're exhausted. We know that creativity comes from being rested. We know that creativity comes from feeling that safety, that psychological safety, knowing that I can bring forward a question or say that I goofed up. And know that it's safe for me to do that, that I'm not going to be reprimanded in front of the whole team or the whole organization. So I think those are some of the indicators I would certainly pay attention to.

You can imagine as well that probably people who get called out for underperforming when they are high performers, I have a sneaking suspicion that when people do get called out when reports are late or projects are late, or they didn't deliver something on time, that all of a sudden defense mode would kick in and you'd see a lot of finger-pointing, a lot of blaming as well.

Absolutely. It certainly happens a lot. And I think that, you know, what we've just been through the last 4 years, what I have found is this has been a great opportunity for not only, you know, we call it the great resignation. I think it's also a great reflection. So I have to also take a look at myself about, am I in this pressure cooker? Do I want to stay in this pressure cooker? What do I need to do differently to get a different result? And I think that, you know, that's the other piece here is that, yes, it's true. We're all on a stress treadmill. However, if I don't get really crystal clear about what my top priorities are, I could likely be working on the Z pile when really I need to be working on the A pile. So that's where I help people with strategies, sometimes so simple, however, so effective on helping them get really crystal clear. Because when you're in overwhelm, when you're in a burnout state, everything is important. So I'm noticing a lot with the leaders that I coach that they will, you know, they'll respond right away to emails. They'll make that phone call immediately rather than taking the necessary pause to go, Okay, really, how important is this right now? Do I need to respond right away, or could I delegate this to someone else? Or perhaps could it be deferred for 24 hours? So more than ever, we really do need to take that pause.

I mean, obviously there's all these signs that we're seeing. Why is it that so many leaders ignore these signs until it's too late? Because it really does affect team dynamics. All of a sudden you have higher resignations. Obviously that's going to affect customer service. It's going to affect bottom lines. And again, if I'm right about my assumption that most people will turn around and then start blaming everything else before they look at themselves, what needs to happen for them to be able to recognize and say, oh, maybe the problem is me?

I think number one is I believe that leadership is an inside job. So, if I'm not tuning into me, if I'm finding that all of a sudden my wife or my partner is now sleeping in another bedroom, there could be some signs here that I need to take a look at. So, I believe it's an internal job. Leadership is from the inside out. That's what I teach people in my seminars and retreats is that it really is an inside job. So, if I don't have awareness, if I'm not investing in myself, in my own personal development, I could very much have a serious disconnect. So, it starts with me and ends with me is my belief system. And I think that's really been proven with the leaders that I work with. I think that the other piece here is that if you see things out of character and all of a sudden now you're seeing that there's Low-grade gossip going on. You've got people turning on each other, like you alluded to before, Marc. There's a blaming happening, the gossiping, that whole sense of what's happening with our team here. Like, it just seems like we used to collaborate and connect on a much better level. And now, I'm seeing people kind of turn on each other a little bit. And so, those are all signs as well that, you know what, you have an issue. There's something that's going on. So, part of it is, again, I have to— I can't say enough about they must start with themselves to take a look at. And of course, I created my Four Rooms Formula to help people to—

Great.

themselves on where are they in that particular room and what room needs to be powered up, what room needs your attention. And so, once you get it, then you're able to— you're looking through a very different lens now. Because if you're already exhausted, you're going from one task to the other, you've got one meeting to go to the other next meeting, and there's really no time for you to take that breath, to take that pause, then the reality is then the likelihood is you're just literally in reaction mode. You're not really taking the time to, and I see that a lot with people. Sometimes we have so many meetings, we've heard this time and time again, that we have way too many meetings. Is it really necessary that we meet that often? Is there some way that we could minimize those meetings? And not only that, is there fun in the meetings? You know, because I find a lot of folks, you know, especially particularly the organizations I'm working with now, they're working with less staff. How do we make it fun? How do we make it more joyful so that people want to work here? They want to be a part of it rather than feeling like a robot and a human doer. It's how do we bring joy back?

And it's interesting too, because the components of what you're talking about, especially when it comes to meeting after meeting after meeting, is usually typically after a meeting, there are action items. And so if you're going from meeting to meeting to meeting, that means you're getting a bunch of action items and strategic plans and stuff that you need to be doing. Then you go to another meeting that's gonna build up on and create piles and piles and piles and piles. And you never have a chance to get out of these meetings to actually start actioning any of these outcomes.

Absolutely, Marc.

I remember working with one leader. In this case, there were some marital issues. Her husband had left and she said, Kate, like, I don't understand why he left. And I said, well, let me get this straight then. So you put in about what, 12-hour days, and then you come home with your laptop and it's open for a big chunk of the night. I can't imagine. Like, you know, so it's about, am I having that meaningful connection with people at home and with myself? And there are cutoff times. So the reality is there never will be enough time. The reality is it'll always be waiting for you. You know, just like when you come back from vacation or sick time or whatever, the truth is we need to start to dial back our expectations of self and my team to say, is it realistic? So given that Jane is going through this difficulty right now with what's happening in her marriage or in her life or her own health issues, how can I dial it back a little bit? Am I expecting too much from Jane? And so therefore it's in my expectations versus that. And I've heard people say, oh, we're making it an excuse. We're doing all this stuff. I don't believe that. I believe that what we need to do is meet people where they're at. And what are they demonstrating? There's always a pattern. There's a pattern for success. There's also a pattern for failure. So what's the pattern here? Well, Jane, the last 4 times, has not followed through. So she's clearly telling something. And going to Jane directly is important. Go to the source and say, like, what's up? Like, how are you finding your current workload? Having that genuine conversation, being compassionate, and saying, how can I best support you at this time?

I love that. You know, you mentioned the 4 rooms. I'd like to delve into what the 4 rooms are and some other strategies to move ourselves out of this, and we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back. I am here with Kate Collins, author of The Powerhouse in You. Kate, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book?

All right, you bet. So as I shared before, really, it comes from my own experience of being a reformed burnout leader, and it became my life's mission. So during the pandemic, while everybody was baking bread— I'm not saying everybody was, but I was jealous for those that were— I decided, you know, it's time for me to write my book, The Powerhouse in You. And for me, my Four Rooms Formula really comes from my formula that I've used for many, many years right across the globe with leaders. In my keynotes, my training, etc. And that is your mentally fit room, your emotionally fit room, your physically fit room, and your spiritually fit room. So to be transparent, I typically would start with my— your mentally fit room. But I've decided since I've just come back from some training with good old Tony Robbins, it's true. It's the physically fit room we need to start with. And I think that for me, it's a matter of if my energy is low, if I'm not sleeping well, if, you know, I just find like I'm dragging myself around, or every time the weekend comes and all of a sudden, You know, I'm not feeling well or I don't have the energy to get up and connect socially with various people, you know, within my family or the extended family or friends, then those are flags. So your physically fit room is really important because what I ask clients a lot is on a scale of 1 out of 10, 10 being high, 1 being low, is that where would you rate yourself right now physically? You know, so that includes your sleep patterns. It includes, you know, I call it the 3 white deaths. You know, how are you doing for sugar, flour, and salt? How are you doing as far as your boundaries? Are the people around you, are they inspiring you or expiring you? I love that one. When I do that with the Funeral Association, they get a kick out of that. So for me, it's physically, you know, how are you operating right now? Are you hooked up to caffeine like intravenously, or you got the M&M stuck in your drawer and that's what's keeping you together in the afternoon? So that's your physically fit room. Your mentally fit room, which is really, really a big one, of course, is what is your mindset? You know, I see our minds very much like that of a computer. So literally, The computer just spits out whatever goes in. So if in my mind I'm saying, oh, I just can't do this, you know, it's not gonna work, you know, here we go again, then the dilemma with that is that literally you're gonna continue to go down the path of likely failure. So to me, your mentally fit room is what sort of things? I talk about the power of 4, for example, your morning routine, and that is starting your day with meditation or prayer or both. So having that stillness, which is really important. The other thing is moving your body. So whatever that looks like for you. Some people say, oh my gosh, I've got small children, Kate, like this isn't doable. So then just get up maybe 20 minutes earlier and allow yourself, you know, lots of times I get people to combine what they're doing. So that's the other thing is I always remind people is that you're already meditating on your problems. So why not while you're on the elliptical machine or you're maybe doing some stretching or you're taking that walk, allow your mind to get quiet. You know, it can certainly be that you partner some of these together. The third thing, which is really, really important, is taking a look at your gratitude. We know that, you know, when we have gratitude in our heart and it's not just, oh yeah, yeah, check, check, check. Yeah, my health is good. Yeah, this is good. That, you know, dropping into your heart and really taking in at least 3 people or situations that you truly are grateful for because we know that fear and gratitude can't live together here or here. Which is really important. And of course, the 4th item is really about what's my intention? How do I want to show up today? And that's something that I encourage people to say throughout the day. So I'm about to go in yet another meeting. How do I want to show up in this meeting? I know it's going to be turbulent. I know that the conversation needs to be courageous. How do I want to show up as a leader? What do I want that to look like? Or I'm a team member. How do I want to show up? Well, I know so-and-so has some strong feelings about this. So it's really important that I remain calm. So how do I do that? I get with my breath. You know, we underestimate the power of breath. It's really, really important that we do that. So that gives you an idea for your mentally fit room. Emotionally fit room, same idea, 1 out of 10. Where do I feel I am emotionally? You know, has my anxiety been off the chart? Am I feeling some sadness? Am I feeling some anger? Am I feeling some resentment, some frustrations? And the same thing goes, you know, I'm a huge fan of journaling. It's something that I recommend to my clients and I do it myself. And it's just what's coming up for me. I think that those check-ins are really critical. So not only do I need to do it for me personally, but I need to do it also with my team. You and I both know that it's the leader that's willing to be vulnerable. And I'm not talking your staff become your therapist, not at all. Although I have an extensive mental health background, it's really more around, you know what, today's an off day. You know, I had this going on or that going on. So if I don't seem like myself, don't take it personal. So when people see you being transparent and allowing you to be, and you allow yourself, give yourself the grace to be vulnerable. It's very powerful. People connect with us in a very, very different way. And I think also emotionally is that, hey, is there something here that I need to do? Like, is maybe I need to look at a therapist or hire a coach, or maybe I need to allow myself more opportunities just to be still because I feel like I'm pushing and pushing and pushing myself too much. And then, of course, the final room is your spiritually fit room. And that's a huge one because if I don't have joy in my life, guess what? You know, my underwear is likely too tight and the people around me are not feeling the love from me or not feeling the connection and that sense of belonging that we know the world is craving right now. So again, it starts with us and ends with us.

As you were talking, so many scenarios came into mind of business owners or managers that I've known over the time. And part of the challenge is this idea of having enough humility to know that you're not a perfect being and that you are going to suffer through This kind of cyclical rollercoaster thing of being well and not being 100%. And to your point, you know, I remember listening to the aerobatic Air Force team, you know, before they hit the planes and do a show, they go around, you know, go, no-go. Each person has to go, go, no-go. And if there was anything, anything at all that a person wasn't at 100%, they said no-go. And they would figure out what that needed to happen to make it a go. And it could be that it was, you know what? You stay grounded today. We're going to bring somebody else in. And you can work on whatever is ailing you in this particular mind. So, they needed physically, mentally, and spiritually to be in the room as it were. At the same token, as you were talking, I was thinking how many leaders lack the humility to be able to identify where their needs are. Is there a way that leaders can identify which of the rooms they need attention most?

I think it'll be glaring. So people say to me right across North America, oh my gosh, when you were speaking or when I was reading your book, I realized it's this room. So I think that usually when people get still, it becomes really obvious. So whether it's, you know what, I just really need a vacation right now, or I need a day off. One of the things I mentioned in my book is a permission slip. Wouldn't it be great not only to give it to ourselves, but give it to team members that, why don't you head off today too? You know, just slip away. You got a lot going on. You've done a great job on this project. Just, just slip away. So that permission slip is so significant because it's saying, I see you. It's also saying that, you know what, you deserve to have a break and we want to reward you. And this isn't something that means that you're not keeping it together or that you're not successful or that you're not making things happen. It's just acknowledging that how much it's taxed you, whether that project or what's happening at home. We were becoming much more realistic. I think it's very powerful. I think that sometimes people misunderstand when being a humble leader. They see that as, I have to now be humiliated. It's not at all that. It's about being really true to yourself and being able to be tuned in enough to take, again, that necessary pause to say, what's up for me right now? How am I feeling? And I think that being able to say that at a staff meeting or a team meeting is very powerful. It's one of the things I'm recommending a lot to teams because I do a lot of team retreats as well. Is that why not start the meeting with, hey, you know, what's something you're really proud of that you've accomplished? It may be, hey, I ate only 2 cookies instead of the whole row. You know, it could be that something really deeper that, hey, you know what, I've been really setting more boundaries. I've been making sure my laptop is closed at a certain time. I have been more present with my children. That's been my goal rather than me thinking about work and always taking a look at my technology. So to me, I think that It creates sort of this really cool domino effect. It's contagious. Joy is contagious. Accountability of how I want to show up is contagious. So is if we get into the blame game. So is if we get into the victim story. So is if we, you know, we point fingers at each other or the gossip. That also is contagious. So, as a leader, I believe we have 100% responsibility to make sure that that culture, that landscape is constantly being nurtured. It's not a one-off. Like I say that a lot to clients, parachuting me in for one retreat is not going to be enough. You need to have some more things built in to make sure that consistency is what's really going to rule this.

I love that. This cliché keeps popping into mind. You can't see the label from inside the bottle. Sometimes you have to bring somebody outside in. So if that's the case and people are really resonating with what you're saying, Kate, How can they get in contact with you if they want to bring you in?

Well, certainly my email, katecollins@powerfuljourney.com. That would be certainly a great one. You can go to my website, same thing, katecollins.com or powerfuljourney.com. Happy to set up a discovery call. That would be something I'd be happy to do just to see whether we're a fit or not. And I always say to people, if I'm not the fit, you know, there's a good chance I'll probably know somebody who is. I mean, as you know, us being on the national board for Canadian Association for Professional Speakers, We know a lot of different people. So, I always say that to people. I'll tell you right out of the gate if I'm not the fit. I mean, if somebody calls me and says, hey, Kate, we really want you to talk about technology, I'd rather put a fork in my eye. I'm just not interested. It's not my— you know, particularly, it's not my area. I'm a work in progress. I'm not going to beat myself up, but I'm not— it's just not my area. It's not my wheelhouse. So, I think it's just reaching out and I'm happy to have that conversation.

A lot of what you're talking about not only requires a level of humility on the leader's behalf, but intentionality as well. So, how can leaders integrate these practices of kind of evaluating their 4 rooms? How can they integrate them into their routines without feeling like, oh my goodness, this is just another thing I have to do?

Again, I think it's, you know, I'm a firm believer because I also have a fitness background. And I think I say to people, they say, well, I'm too tired. I don't have enough time, Kate, to work out. I say, oh, so you don't brush your teeth during the day? Well, yes, I do. Okay, well, why not do some squats while you're actually brushing your teeth? Maybe when you're going for the fridge, maybe you could, you know, do some jumping jacks. I think the key is what we want to do is we want to partner with already existing habits that we have, and that's going to make the biggest difference. If someone said to me, Kate, which room would you say is the game changer? I want to say it's your physically fit room. If you don't have energy right now, it's important to take a step back. What am I putting in my body? Am I getting enough sleep? Am I taking on too much? Is my environment cluttered? Because we know that physical environment has so much to do. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about a project because I know, you know, right now mine's pretty creatively looking. That's my— the way I look at it. It really— anybody come in and go, whoa. But for me, I know where things are, you know, and then I put it all together and things are nice and neat because we know that a busy mind, if it's reflected in the physical environment, if it's tidy, it's going to also impact here. So I think for me, it's sometimes the simple things. That can be so huge.

See, honey, my desk is not a mess. It's a creative workspace.

Love it.

Oh, because my workspace is excessively creative, I have to tell you. So, you know, part of this is, you know, understanding that we have a weakness and having the humility to accept that we're human beings and that we have to acknowledge that we are human beings. Having the intentionality to be able to reach out and recognize not only your own effect, but the effect that you have on your team and the people within your team, how they're kind of faring. How can leaders hold themselves accountable to prioritize their well-being while still trying to manage the demands of everything coming at them with their teams and their businesses and so on?

Obviously, from my book, I talk about that, about ways in which— so the number one priority is to figure out their number one priority. That's a big one, right? Because it's really important. And that's going to change sometimes minutes to minutes or hours to hours. So, what's my number one priority right now? What's in front of me? I'm known as the mind mapping queen. That's also in my book as well. So, this is one thing I'm finding a lot of organizations are saying, how do I gift my team this holiday season? And why not have each of them get your book? And then they can become an ongoing conversation. I was very intentional when I wrote the book, Marc, as well, is that, you know, there's questions in there. There's opportunities for people to fill in. Exercises. So I think the big thing is, most importantly, is, you know, make sure that you're doing an inventory for yourself. I really believe that whatever my strength is, if it's out of moderation, it can actually become a shortcoming. I'm very mindful of weakness and strength. I don't like the word weakness. I believe that if I knew better, I would have done better. I think that— so I'm a strong leader, but if Kate's tired, if I got too much on my plate, it can be controlling at home. It stops my family. So I've gotta be really cautious of, you know, if I've got too much happening. So who's best at that inventory? Ask your family members. How do you see I'm doing within my 4 rooms? So sometimes we don't know what we don't know, and that's okay. So which room do you think is the one that I need to focus in on more? And it may be that, yeah, I gotta get my energy up. So I always ask people, do that inventory. You know, where are you? You know, your energy, you know, having maybe a pot of coffee might not be the best thing for you. And maybe it's a matter of, hey, I'm gonna get up and move my body. One of the things that I've just made a commitment for is that every 90 minutes I'm physically gonna get up and move my body, 'cause sometimes I can be so focused at my computer and then I wonder why my massage therapist says, oh my gosh, your hips are so tight, your lower back is so tight. And, you know, this is coming from a fitness instructor. So to me it's like, yeah, I gotta get up and move my body. I can't do something otherwise. It's like being in a factory. You're doing the same thing. long periods of time and it's going to wear and tear on you.

And then, you know, to your point, this idea that you can go outside and get people's feedback on you. Part of the challenge we have is we need, I believe we need to be able to self-vet ourselves because when people tell us something, we'll deny it and we'll blame it. So, you know, having a resource like your book to actually go through and answer the questions where you do have a quiet time and you can reflect on it. I think would be the absolute key to being a checklist of how am I doing today based on these 4 rooms, based on the checklist that Kate has and the worksheets that Kate has in order to kind of self-filter that. Is that fair?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think this is not a, you know, I'm going to sit and read it one night and, you know, let me fall asleep to it. It's really intended so that, like some organizations, I'm so thrilled, Marc, they've actually taken my book and they've done like one a month, each of the rooms. But they made it like a book club. And so, it becomes sort of that awareness remains within the organization. Okay. So, what was your answer to this exercise or to this question that Kate asked us? And so, you know, again, I always say to people, go where the pain is. Go where the pain is. So, if within your team, everybody's kind of snapping at each other, you know, there's an emotional room that needs maybe some tending to. Is it the fact that maybe a mentally fit room is people are turning everything into being a priority when it doesn't need to be? But usually people, when they take that pause, the answer comes pretty quickly.

Yeah. And the intentionality behind being able to filter through it and having the book and doing it like a book club where you read a chapter a week and you go through and you brainstorm how it applies to you, that's not only a great learning opportunity, that's a shared experience, which is one of the best ways to break down the silos and get people kind of on the same page, literally and figuratively.

I agree. And in there too, what I have found is, so I work with senior leaders and I work with their middle managers. And so it may be, oh gosh, Kate, I used one of your questions because I was observing this with my team. I was observing this. So then I started off the next staff or team meeting with your question. And so we had some really rich exchanges and people really felt a sense of connection and belonging of knowing they weren't the only one. I mean, when I do my presentations, I talk to people about, for example, in the Emotionally Fit Room, how many of you have regrets? Hands go up. Okay. Look around the room. How many of you have regrets for the last 7 days? Hands go up. How about the last month? I've gone as high as 30 years. And I say, okay, so how is it working for you? I'm saying that playfully with no judgment, but how is it working for you? Who are you robbing? Mostly yourself, people around you that you love dearly. And, you know, a lot of people have their team members or colleagues are their friends as well, because we spend more time there. So to me, it's about giving ourselves that forgiveness of saying, hey, if I knew better, I would have done better. And yeah, I blew it. It wasn't my best day. It wasn't my best meeting. So what do I need to do to move forward? Well, I need to apologize. I need to take responsibility. And I need to change the behavior. So rather than us waiting and feel like we got to do the pooper scooper after we've done all these problems because we haven't had the insights, part of it is, again, to take that pause and say, which room do I need to address right now and power up? And a lot of people come to me saying it's really the physically fit room to start. And then oftentimes, then we slip into that mentally fit room because part of it is their limiting belief. Because I teach people also about what limiting beliefs are they having that are preventing them from being more successful and showing up and being their best selves.

I love it. For those who are inspired to start making changes today, I always like to talk about fighting off the band-aid warriors. And so, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls that leaders should be aware of as they try to implement some of your strategies. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back. We are having a phenomenal discussion and I hope you're getting tons of value from it. And again, I will ask you, this is a perfect way to normalize the conversation around things like burnout and mental health and mental wellbeing. So please make sure that you share this episode. Let's make this part of our conversations and let's stop hiding it under the rug. As you can tell, Both Kate and I are deeply committed to supporting you and your team. So, if you would like us to help you explore how we could be of benefit, either you have an upcoming conference or a leadership retreat, or to help with an immediate problem that you're experiencing, drop us a line. Our contact information is in the show notes. Oh my goodness, Kate, have you found that there's a lot of organizations that are kind of just shoveling this under the carpet, that they're not really addressing it?

Well, it's interesting because I would say that the organizations I work with, because I tend to work with people for sometimes years because we develop a relationship, but yes, I think some do. However, I guess I want to shed the light on those that are investing in themselves and investing in their teams. There's also those folks that are saying, you know what? We've got to do something different because right now our retention and our attraction, we've got a serious issue. So, we're doing more with less, less bodies, less people, and it's burning our people out. So, I guess that's the eternal optimist in me, Marc. I like to believe that people are saying, you know what, we've got to— they're looking at their pattern. People are leaving. They're just getting up and leaving. And they're shocked by, oh my gosh, like there's this wealth of knowledge. We've done so much. We've poured into this individual and now they're going somewhere to our competitor. And I think it's really important that we pay attention.

So, yes.

I would say there are some people that are maybe still doing the, you know, saying it's all good. However, I'd like to shine a light on those that are actually stepping up and saying, yes, we've got to get creative. And I've got lots of folks that I'm working with that get it. They get it that if they don't do something soon, if they don't do something now, I mean, think about the thousands of dollars it takes to retrain someone, you know, or there's a gap now because that person's now left. And now all of a sudden, the weight of the responsibilities in their job Goes on to those left behind.

And then, it affects the customers that come up behind that. It affects that as well. And so, everything we've been talking about today is really about building a culture of resilience, reducing turnover, and boosting team morale. The challenge, I think, is still that people will blame other things. And again, we've talked about in this episode, we've talked about some tools that we could use To start evaluating what that would look like for us instead of turning around and just going, oh, the kids today, they're just too lazy. Or, you know, you and I are of the same generation. So how many baby boomers do we know is, oh, we just learned to suck it up. And so this idea of taking the steps now to help, because I do believe that this is kind of the big tent of how we can build a culture of resiliency. We can increase employee engagement, overall team morale, and ultimately reduce the turnover, which of course will just make sure that we fulfill our customers' expectations and our business and being able to do what we need to do for our clients. Because if we're healthy, our clients will be doing business with a healthy company as well.

Well, and you're right, Marc. I think that, you know, we know that we get one customer, one client that says, hey, that was a really bad experience. We know that they're going to tell several people, maybe even up to 11.

Especially now with social media.

Right?

And the damage that that does to our brand is absolutely massive. I mean, I had an experience just a couple of weeks ago, went and saw a specialist, and the experience was so poor. It was unbelievable. And I could see that she was exhausted. I could see that she was running 30 minutes late. And rather than walking in and saying, I'm so sorry that we're running late, it's just one of those days, she in fact just started coming at me with all kinds of questions, not even a hi, this is my name, Dr. So-and-so. She came at me so strong and I left kind of dazed, like, my gosh, what a very poor experience. So I called back when I got home because I was still very put off by the experience. And I said to her receptionist, I know I can't speak to her because she's got another long waiting list of people going in there. So I just said, you know, I just need you to know my experience. This was unacceptable to be this abrasive, direct. And then I also called my own doctor and said, look, you know, you made this referral. I need you to know that this was not a positive experience. So maybe think differently when you make a referral to this particular specialist moving forward. That Not all people are gonna do this, Marc. Not all people are gonna do that. Now, I never heard from that specialist, which spoke volumes to me, 'cause she probably somehow blamed me with receptionist. So to me, eventually it's gonna bite you so hard that, like you say, I easily could have gone on Google reviews and just blew that open. But I thought, nope, I've gone to the source. What she does with it is up to her. I've told my own doctor. But that's the thing is right now with social media, if you're not afraid now, you need to be because somebody can really Chop up your brand by saying, this was unacceptable how I was treated. And that's what happens when staff are exhausted, when they're burnt out, when they're doing that low-grade kind of conflict because, you know, there's so much expected of them. If I don't do the pulse as a leader regularly, I call it walk the floor. If I don't walk around and see what people, you know, get a heart check on what they're feeling, what they're going through, then what's happened is I'm doing that pooper scooper again. That's all I'm doing. I'm going behind and it's constant. And then until they jump ship. And so we have a responsibility as leaders to continuously take that pulse. In some cases, we need to do CPR because we've maybe let the gap happen for so long. So often, if I can just say one last thing, which is really important, Marc, we need to celebrate more. So as a leader, as a team, it's critical. I work with organizations that they've had a big project. It doesn't matter the length of it, but it's been intense. It's been extra work, extra effort. And then it's like, next, next, next. And we need to pause and say, yeah, we rocked it. We are powerhouses. That was so amazing what we did. Whatever way you want to celebrate, but it's important to do it and do it with genuine meaning and authenticity. Because you see, that's what's going to build the muscle later. So all of a sudden, you as a leader need to roll out a new program or changes. You know, we've now built it in that, hey, what you've done with your contribution before matters. And so, that's what's going to help them.

You know, and I'm a big fan of what gets recognized and rewarded gets repeated. So, if we have behavior of everybody jumping on board to be able to help us through the projects or whatever we need to be doing, we're short-staffed or overcoming an obstacle or whatever, we celebrate together, that recognition and reward will mean that the next time you go to them and say, okay, here's what's next. You have people jumping on board and being wanting to.

I totally agree.

Any cautionaries or pitfalls for the people who have been listening to this, knowing they have to make a change? My fear is that I don't want this to become kind of the focus of the month, that, oh yeah, we have to change some things. So, what are some cautionaries, some pitfalls we should be aware of as we try to make a change?

Number one is I'm huge about accountability for myself as a leader, as well as for my team. So, To me, it's about, you know, I need to claim. I need to claim what it is I'm going to work on. It's just one thing. What's my number one priority? And it may be that your number one priority is to figure out your number one priority, right? So, to me, whether it's like, yes, I need to do a survey, I need to, you know, do the walkabout, I need to do that, you know, walk the floor to get a real heartbeat of what's going on with people. I think that for sure, that's really, really important. I think that do one thing. Do one thing and build in somewhere where it's another leader or maybe one of your senior people that you're going to come back to them and say, okay, at the end of 21 days, at the end of 30 days, this is what I'm going to be reporting back. Because we know that when I say it to somebody else that I trust, that will hold me accountable, and it's not just wait till 30 minutes before that deadline, it could be updates with that individual of how you're doing on a consistent basis. That, I think, is the biggest one that I would say. Consistency is queen. Consistency is queen. And so, how do I do that? I hold myself accountable. I do this with my own team. I do this with— I encourage people to, whether it's your executive assistant or your VA or whatever it might be, somehow making it so that you need to update somebody, report to somebody your progress because progress makes— it's just so much easier when you can know that you're sharing it with somebody else. And then you get to celebrate as well along the way. Not just at the very end, but to go, yeah, I'm really committed to this. It's in my schedule. The more people you can tell, the better. So when I'm making some changes, my assistant knows, like it's right into my calendar. So she knows this is something that I'm being very intentional about and that I'm following through. And I think that's really, really important.

Any advice for the people, like as the leader starts to share something like this and you look around the room and you see the eye rolling, he goes, ah, here he goes again. Anything you would suggest to the leaders who have faced maybe a level of distrust, or their trust bank account has been overdrawn a little bit? How do they rebuild that so that people will take it seriously?

Great way of putting it. I think number one is do the work. Do your own personal work. Use my book. Get a chance to kind of delve into some things and get really, truly honest with yourself. You know, it's no different than if we don't— like, I'm a huge fan of pay attention to the patterns. So, to me, you know, I've had 3 people jump ship, let's say, in the last 6 months. I've got to pay attention to that. Is there something here that I could have done differently? Not just wait for the exit interview and get that information. What are some things that I missed, which is really important, that I need to make sure that I tune into? I think that, for me, again, I can't say enough about accountability. I think that part of it is to really look through the lens. Imagine it's your first day. So, you may own the company, or maybe it's perhaps you're in a senior leadership role. Imagine it's your first day. Be curious. Be open and curious to what you're seeing. Don't be attached to it. This isn't about let's blame the leader. That's not what this is about. It's about what is the pattern that you're seeing? I remember one of my team members saying, Kate, you're like that creative type. I love that about you. But could you give me a little bit more lead time? That was important information for me. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I can only do better if I know. What it is, right? So the more we have those authentic conversations with the key players that are involved in our inner circle, I think that's— I always want to be a student, Marc. Yes, I'm a teacher, but I'm also a student, and I always want to be a student. That's what keeps me humble. And I may not like what feedback that I'm getting, but people know if you're BSing. So if you're just going through the motions, I'm going to share during this team meeting or the staff meeting, blah, blah, blah, and then you get the eye roll. It's a matter of, okay, drop into your heart. Just really come from a place of honesty of, yeah, it's been a really tough time. Some of you don't know that I'm going through a separation, or some of you don't know that we've got some health issues in my family, or some of you don't know, blah, blah, blah. And I just want you to know that I maybe haven't shown up. Not maybe. I haven't been showing up to be my best self. And I want you to know I'm truly sorry about that. Give eye contact. Let it be— come from this, not here. People know when you're just scripting it out. And there's something to be said that when you drop into your heart, people know that, hey, you know what? I do matter here. And it's going to feel foreign for some people. They might start laughing. So you need to be prepared for that because they feel uncomfortable. That's not your normal style of being. And let them know, look, this is new for me. So I'm going to screw up as I go along. But please try to be patient with me. And I want to be better. I want to be a better leader. And I want to show up for you in a really positive way. And I haven't done that lately. Again, going back to taking 100% responsibility for our thoughts, feelings, and our actions. So the more you model that, the more that it allows your team members to come forward and say, you know what? I made a mistake. I goofed. I'm sorry. And this is how I'm going to correct that. Or moving forward, this is how I'm going to be different. But you're a leader either that inspires or expires. Bottom line. And if you don't like your own company, they don't either.

This has been such a wonderful conversation. I just wonder, do you have any last thoughts as we end this episode?

I think for me, the big thing is, most importantly, Marc, is remember that you already are a powerhouse. There's nothing that, you know, you are a powerhouse right now. And so, a lot of times people lose their way. Because, again, the 4 rooms. The 4 rooms become taxed, and you become overwhelmed. You start experiencing fraud, imposter syndrome. You start to get resentful. You start to not— the joy gets sucked out of you.

And self-blame, right? What the hell's wrong with me? Why can't I make this work?

Absolutely. And I think to me, it's really about just, okay, so I'm doing the best I can in this moment. What do I need to do to uplevel? So be kind to yourself. Give yourself the grace. Saying the fact that you're even willing to look at yourself and do that self-inventory, that's huge. So congratulations that you're willing to do that.

Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you, Kate?

Sure. So katecollins@powerfuljourney.com. That's Kate with a C at powerfuljourney.com. And I'm happy to connect with you and have that discovery call and see if we're a fit or not or how best I can serve.

Love it. Thank you. And of course, you're on LinkedIn. So, people can always find you there as well. Yes.

I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook. I'm on YouTube. You betcha. Yes.

Okay. Thank you so much for doing this with us today. I really appreciate that you came on and shared your passion and your expertise to make us brilliant. And at the same token, again, I'm going to do one more call out to our audience. Please share the episode. You don't know what people are going through. And so, the more we can normalize this conversation, the better it'll be for people to maybe step out of their comfort zone and turn around and say, I need some help. So please, whether or not you know people are suffering or not, share this episode because that's going to make all the difference in the world. Kate, thank you again. This has been brilliant.

Thank you so much, Marc.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like to have 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm storm your business with you and your team, please feel free to book time on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service for you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or a review about this episode? Was this of value to you? I'd love to get your feedback. Thank you so much for joining me today. I know that time is our number one And for you to come and tune into this, it just goes to show you're invested in yourself. So, thank you so much for investing in yourself and spending time with us today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

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