The Art of Managing Hourly Employees: Proven Strategies for Success
In this 47‑minute interview on Marc Haine Live, host Marc Haine and guest Scott Greenberg explore why many small‑business owners struggle with high turnover and low productivity among hourly staff and how to turn hourly workers into high‑performing teams. The conversation begins by diagnosing common misconceptions—most owners treat hourly employees like salaried staff, assuming the same leadership approaches work for both. Greenberg explains that hourly workers often have variable schedules, transactional relationships, and different motivational drivers. He stresses that money alone does not secure engagement; purpose, belonging, and growth are the true levers. The duo discusses the importance of a clear purpose, shared values, and daily rituals (pre‑shift huddles, virtue‑cards, feedback tied to values) to embed culture. A central tool introduced is the “30‑Second Leadership” framework, a rapid diagnostic that matches an employee’s hard‑skill and soft‑skill needs on a task‑by‑task basis and delivers the appropriate coaching moment. Greenberg cites a study of 100,000 managers showing that managers who are both results‑oriented and people‑oriented rank in the top 10 % of performance 82 % of the time, underscoring the need to balance execution with empathy. Hiring messaging is reframed as a marketing exercise: ads should sell the emotional experience of the job, not just duties. Engagement and retention are reframed as emotional experiences—employees stay for purpose, growth, and belonging, not just pay. Throughout, practical steps are offered: use purpose‑driven job ads, conduct pre‑shift meetings led by staff, employ virtue‑pick exercises, give feedback that references values, and apply the 30‑Second Leadership tool. The episode also promotes Greenberg’s upcoming book Stop the Shift Show (Feb 13 2024) and provides contact information. The overall message is that effective hourly‑worker management requires intentional culture work, task‑specific coaching, and a balanced focus on results and people.
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Is the constant churn of hourly employees just a fact of life? Because let's face it, it's costing you a ton of time and money. Not to mention what it does to your brand and your customer perception of your business. And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine, and I am so grateful that you are tuning in today. My guest for this episode is speaker and coach Scott Greenberg. And today, We will delve deep into a subject that plagues many businesses, especially customer-facing grassroots businesses that support our local economies. And that is managing our hourly workforce. We're on a mission today to unravel the ongoing implications of leading hourly workers and what you can do to be a little bit more effective and hopefully more profitable leveraging your hourly talent. My one ask is that if you do know somebody who could use this information, please go ahead and share a link to this episode. Knowledge is power but only if we share it. And that's what this podcast is all about. Now, I know that you've hired a team of hourly workers. And on the onset, they're energetic, ready to take on the day. They're all gung-ho. But As time ticks on, you notice a pattern. The initial enthusiasm fades, productivity wanes, and before you know it, you're right back to square one seeking new hires. Oh, come on! That never happens. Does it? Is it just about hiring the right people or could it be something deeper? Could the way that we manage, motivate, and connect with our hourly workers be the key to unlocking a treasure trove of loyalty, efficiency, and unparalleled customer service. So that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, are you truly maximizing the potential of your hourly workers? Or could there be some hidden factors in your systems and even your management style that are hindering the performance and your business growth. We love hearing from you. So, if you want to share your thoughts, your experiences, or any questions you might have, you can drop them in the comment box below. Your insights not only enriches our discussion but also helps others facing similar challenges. As I mentioned, I am so thrilled to welcome Scott Greenberg to the show today. Scott, is a luminary in the world of business leadership and transformation. A sought-after speaker and a master strategist, Scott emerges acute— sorry, Scott merges acute business acumen with a deep understanding of the human elements that drive organizational success. Scott's innovative 30 Second Leadership, his master tool, isn't just a game changer. It's a Business Revolution in a Half a Minute. Imagine enhancing employee mindset, skill sets, and performance all in the time that it takes you to watch a viral cat video. Pretty cool! With a history of turning struggling franchises into profitable ventures, Scott's real-world experience is as impressive as his speaking credentials, which spans all over 50 U.S. states and on global stages. His new book, Stop the Shift Show, is set to launch in February 2024. Scott, welcome to the show. It is brilliant having you today.
Thank you so much. And you had me at luminary. I don't know that anybody's ever called me that before, but I'll take it.
It just goes to show how bright you truly are.
Well, as long as you think that, we're in good shape.
So, before we get too deep into today's topic, could you tell us a little bit about how you serve your clients?
Sure. Well, I've learned from the very beginning that what we get matters less than how we feel. And so, from the time I was starting off as a motivational speaker in my 20s to when I ran my retail Edible Arrangements business to what I do now, helping business leaders elevate their performance, I think it's very important that we understand the human, the emotional side of what we do. And so, for me, whether I'm interacting with a client who's bringing me in to speak, or someone who's buying my book, or coaching, that kind of thing. Or whether I'm back in time running my Edible Arrangements business, I'm offering products and services. But I want to deliver them in a way that elevates the emotional state of everyone who I'm interacting with. To me, that is the foundation for a great customer experience.
I love that. And it really reflects a true servant heart, which I love. So today, we are talking about hourly workers. Can you describe the core challenges that businesses face when they're managing hourly workers?
Well, it's no secret because people are constantly complaining about them. I hear business leaders recently. I heard someone say, I hate my employees.
Oh!
Right, which is an extreme version of kids these days, which people have been saying for generations, right? And not that there isn't some truth to it sometimes because ultimately, kids Our kids, right? We were kids. Our parents complained about us. But when you're employing young people, and not all hourly workers are necessarily young, though they do skew younger, you're not just dealing with hourly workers, you're dealing with youth, right? And so, that's a huge thing. But I think that for a lot of managers, bosses, business owners, that they don't appreciate the challenges. They know what their own challenges are, But they don't appreciate what it takes to get to the other side of it, starting with knowing the differences between hourly workers and salary workers. So, all the work that I'm doing these days is about helping people understand that distinction and what they need to do better and differently with hourly workers to get the results they want.
So, what kind of misconceptions do business owners often have about hourly employees?
Well, I think the first one is again not making the distinction between hourly employees and those on salary.
Okay.
They believe that what works for salaried employees is going to work with those who are hourly. You know, when I first started running my retail business, I went back and reread all of the books that I collected over the years about leadership and teams and customer service. And what I found is that there are some gurus, some real experts who've written that book who don't make the distinction, right? They think that what works for engineers It's also going to work for cashiers, right? These are people who are going to market to demographics differently. They're going to sell different products and services to the various demographics that are out there. So, they make distinctions among consumers, but they don't make the distinction among employees, right?
Right.
So, people who are on a salary, they have the dignity of not having to punch in, right? They feel valued. There's usually more opportunities in those jobs to grow. They know what their income is going to be. They know what their hours are going to be. There's a lot of stability that's there. Well, for hourly workers, that's not the case. During slow times, their hours might be reduced. During great times, their hours might change. Well, this demographic, they're more likely to be going to other jobs afterwards, to be going to class, to have daycare issues, but they're constantly scrambling because their schedule and their income is constantly changing.
Hmm.
Their relationships with the organizations tend to be more transactional. Right? They may not have the opportunities to grow. So, all things being equal, if they can make an extra buck an hour going to work over there, they will.
Yes.
You know, often, you know, often in larger environments, they talk about their mission or value statements, these big grand statements that are rooted in abstraction. But I said to a client recently, I said, I know you always tell your employees that one of your values is integrity. Ask one of them to define integrity to you.
Yeah.
And she couldn't. Right? So, it's really a very different world with very different needs, that kind of thing. We can't take concepts that are going to apply for maybe people who are maybe a little bit older, maybe a bit more educated, have what are considered higher skills. What's going to work for them may not work with hourly workers. Right?
You know, it's interesting. I just saw an article about Costco unionizing. That there was another Costco in the United States that was driving union. towards unionizing with their— they were doing a charter, a campaign to unionize their employees. And it was interesting to see some of the rationales for it was the way people felt because they were hourly workers, how they felt about how management views them. And to your point, once things get slow, the hours get cut. But also, in some dysfunctional cultures, The schedule is a perfect way to punish employees.
Absolutely. We all, you know, every business has that shift that no one wants to work, right? Or that maybe there's that holiday where people want time off. And so, yes, that is certainly one way to punish someone. Or at Edible Arrangements, not only do we have certain shifts that people didn't want, when I really wanted to punish someone, we had a strawberry costume. where someone would dress up as a strawberry, stand outside, and wave at cars. That was the ultimate punishment if someone really made me angry. I don't know.
Dressing up as a fruit and being sweet. There's nothing wrong with that.
Well, unless you're selling Fruit of the Loom underwear, I'm not sure it's a great opportunity.
So, are there any telltale signs for business operators out there that the business might be struggling with ineffective managing of its hourly workforces? Or anything that Which would be kind of this flare that says, hey, buddy, you have a problem.
Sure. And I'll speak in generalizations just because it's faster. But I think if it's more than just a few employees who are underperforming, I think if it's chronic, if it's consistent, if it's happening at a larger scale, to me, that's management. It's very easy, in my opinion, very lazy to say, Kids these days, this generation, you know, Generation Z. Again, not that there isn't some truth to our observations, but we tend to add judgment, right? Like we know for a fact that they want more flexibility, but often that's interpreted as, well, they're lazy and they're entitled and, you know, that kind of thing. And I think that we need to be careful with that, that, you know, again, managers have always complained about employees, but I think the issue, as much as it's kids these days, It's management these days. The average manager works for 10 years in a management position before ever receiving any management training, right? Most people get promoted to management because they were very competent as an employee and showed some responsibility. But managing people is a completely different skill set than working the assembly line, dispensing frozen yogurt, or working in hospitality, right? But the idea is, well, you're great as an employee, so I'm just going to make you manager. be good at managing without them getting the proper training. So, how are most people trained in management? They manage the way they were managed.
Yeah.
And so often, they pass on this tradition of poor management, right? Or maybe they focus on results, on metrics, but not on culture and not on people. Or maybe the opposite. They're all about people, wanting to make them happy, but they're not watching the bottom line. Most people don't get the coaching they need to be good managers. And in the cases of many entrepreneurs or small business owners, No one's giving them feedback because they're on top. So, no one's telling them that they're a bad manager. Their employees are afraid to give them feedback. So, employees give them the feedback by leaving. But what do the managers and entrepreneurs say? Well, you know, they're lazy, they're entitled, they don't want to do anything.
Nobody wants to work. Yep.
Right. And I believe in personal responsibility. I believe in accountability, but as much for the business owner and manager as for employees. And so, I think anytime that we have these kinds of problems, the first place to look for a solution is in the mirror.
Well, I could just hand you my virtual lectern, Scott, and you could take over my podcast because it's something that I've been preaching since March 2020 when I launched the show. This is something that I've been talking about. I've indicated time and time again that this is the number one issue that I see in small businesses. is that high performers are being promoted into leadership roles with the expectation of, hey, you're such a great cashier. You're such a good cook.
You know what?
If you could teach people how to be as good as you are, I mean, we're gonna have a phenomenal team.
Go get them!
And these poor people are just left wallowing in this new role. And to your point, that requires completely different skill sets than what they came in on.
And here, since I know you're north of the border, I'll make a Canadian reference. We all remember the great Wayne Gretzky.
Yes.
Right? Legendary hockey player, not a legendary hockey coach. That there are so many stories of really great athletes whose records once they got to coaching weren't necessarily as good, right? Because coaching, leadership, management involves very different things. Not to knock Wayne Gretzky, the guy is a legend. Magic Johnson was a legend. But if we just focus on what they achieved as a coach, it's very different. And so, I think we need to appreciate that. And what that means is if you're a manager, if you're a boss, if you're a business owner, is to ask yourself, what are you doing to be as effective, as influential, as inspirational, as engaging as you can be?
Mm-hmm.
And the temptation is to want to blame, to want to point our finger at the employees, at the generation. And again, not that I disagree, get a glass of wine in me. I'll complain all night about Generation Z, but my complaints about them aren't helpful.
Yeah.
What we need to do is get the judgment, the complaints aside, and think, how is this generation different? How is this team of people in front of me different? What can I do differently to inspire them, to get through to them? And, you know, I figured that out with my businesses. And over the last year, I've written a book about managing hourly workers, and I have found all kinds of businesses large and small, in a variety of industries throughout the world who have cracked the nut, who have cracked the code, who figured out how to get great results from the same workers without necessarily paying a whole lot more. So, it can be done. So, I do think it's important that we reflect on ourselves and our own thinking as much on these workers. And again, I will share that publicly and sometimes people get really angry at me. I've got one hate email from a guy. an article in Nation's Restaurant News about enhancing the customer experience by training your employees to really pay attention as much as they can to the emotional needs of the customers in front of them. And I gave lots of examples.
Sure.
This guy sends me a message tearing me apart. Have you ever actually managed employees? We can barely find people, let alone get them to become armchair psychologists. Why don't you get some real-world experience before you start writing articles? Now, he didn't know about my background or what I do. He just knew he couldn't get great results. So, in his mind, the only conclusion is they're broken. The workers are broken.
Yes.
It didn't occur to him that maybe there's something about his management that could be done differently.
Yeah.
Right? And I've met enough people getting great results from every generation, but certainly from today's hourly workers, that it can be done. There's always going to be problems. We're always going to need management. But we can reduce the headaches and maximize performance if we do it right.
Yes. And to your point, I've likewise received some feedback from people who are in the business community who told me in no uncertain terms, you know what? I pay my employees. They're supposed to do what I tell them to do. And it's like, okay then.
Right?
Yeah.
Well, here's the thing. It's like, Theoretically, that makes sense. My first boss was my grandfather. He ran the family ice cream store, let me start working there when I was quite young. He learned leadership in the military.
Yes.
So, his idea is, I pay you, I tell you what to do, and you do it. And when they didn't, he would complain and say, I don't understand. I'm paying their entire paycheck. Why aren't they doing everything that they're supposed to be doing? There's logic to that. It's just not rooted in reality.
No.
Right? Because people need more than compensation in order to perform with the love even when that's the expectation, when that's the agreement. That's just not the real world. And we need to like let go of that and understand what it really takes to inspire and motivate.
Yeah, and that's the key right there is we take on the ownership. I need to inspire and motivate. It's on me to be able to do that as the leader.
Yeah.
Right. I'd like to jump into some steps that we can take to turn the tables on this awful disease. And we'll get to that right after this.
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Welcome back! I am speaking with the author of Stop the Shift Show: Turn Your Struggling Hourly Workers into Top-Performing Teams, Scott. Scott, why don't you tell us a little bit about your book? It's coming out in February, I believe, right? The middle of February?
Sure.
I wasn't going to mention it, but since you asked, I happen to have a copy right here. By the way, the commercial you just showed about your book was awesome. So, if you could make a commercial for me, that would be great. Yeah, it comes out February 13th. It's called Stop the Shift Show: Turn Your Struggling Hourly Workers into a Top-Performing Team. So, it's real-world practical information and ways and tools and techniques to take your team of hourly workers and make them great. And part of this is making you a better leader, better manager so you have more influence so you can tap into their potential and make them a better team.
Lovely! We talk a lot on the show about employee engagement and retention. How does what we are talking about really affect that particular metric?
I think that a lot of people have it wrong when it comes to engagement and retention. They think it's about what the employee gets. So, at the tail end of the pandemic, when suddenly people wanted their employees back and saw they weren't coming back, most people threw money at the problem. They offered signing bonuses and higher starting salaries, cutting into their margins, which is not a solution that can sustain itself. What I found from interviewing all these great business owners and leaders from factories to a top franchisee from KFC who has 128 locations, All, you know, that are run by, you know, hourly workers is, yeah, they pay well, but that's not what makes them different. It's the experience they create for the employees. And that's different than being nice to them. People say, well, you know, we have a great culture. I treat them like family. I buy them pizza and gift cards and celebrate their birthdays. Those are nice gestures, but that's not creating culture. Culture is much more specific than that. People will come for money for the things they get. But they stay or leave because of how they feel. So we need to create work environments where people feel a sense of purpose, a sense of growth, and a sense of belonging, right? If I feel really connected to my team members and I'm really inspired by what they're doing, and this might even be the healthiest place in my life where I'm spending time, then I'm less likely to go down the street to go work for someone to make an extra dollar per hour. Just as, you know, consumers will pay more For a better experience, employees will accept less when there are better opportunities to make money for a better experience. Not that they should get paid less, but money isn't the only way to compensate them. So, we can pay them well and treat them well, give them what they need, but then really infuse that by making a great experience for them, just like we do for the customer. That creates, you know, makes customers repeat customers. That's what makes employees come back. and invite their friends to apply.
It's so funny when we use the word customer and employees interchangeably because to some business owners when I've done that, looking at our employees really as being our first customer, they get all persnickety because the customers are the ones who are paying our business, supporting us and giving us their money. The employees are not. And it's like, oh, that is such a limiting belief.
Right. Well, look, theoretically, we are the customer for the employee, right? We're paying for their— we're the customer. But it's better to broaden it. Think of you need 2 parties for there to be a market, for there to be an exchange. And it doesn't matter if you're exchanging goods or money for goods or whatever. There needs to be 2 parties for a market, right? And so, we still have to court to get the right people, to get the customers businesses want.
Yeah.
They were very careful about the messaging in their ads. Well, these days, to get a really good hourly worker, it's as difficult as to get a new customer, which means we need to be a lot more deliberate about the messaging that we put in our help wanted posts and how we court them, right?
Yeah.
But most people aren't. They'll spend all this time with the most beautiful language and images to get customers. And then, they're going on Indeed.com, wanted dishwasher, must work Saturday nights. You know, but again, not speaking to their emotions, or if anything, they're scaring them with the emotions. I talk a lot about this in my book and in my presentations about getting people in the first place, not just by saying, here's what we offer and here's the job, but here's why you should come. Here's what it feels like, and here's how we're going to elevate your experience. And again, I know a lot of people think I shouldn't have to do that for finding employees. All right.
I'm paying them.
If you have another way of finding them and keeping them, Go for it. Yeah, right.
It really does seem like the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. Since the middle '80s, I mean, in the '80s, we used to put ads in newspapers. Right? And then, we would get copious amounts of resumes dropped off at the front desk. And then, we were able to go through that. Today, we're using Indeed. We're using all the different services out there to do this. Even leveraging AI, which I think it just takes the human component out of the screening process. And I think we lose a lot of capacity or the potential capacity into our businesses because we're doing that. But now, it really is an employee's market. Now, you put out an ad on one of these services and you might only get 5 resumes or 5 applications done. So now, it's a much different world. How would you suggest that we tip the scale on that? Because you mentioned something and the only word that really came into my mind, or 2 words, was purpose and values came into my mind as you were talking about that. How important is it to start focusing on our core purpose to the world?
It's essential. Again, people are driven less by what they get and more by how we feel. Right? Behavioral economics is all about that. It's totally irrational, right? So, what we need to do is tap into that irrationality. We know that people want to feel good. So, everything that we do with our business should elevate people's emotions, whether it's customers, employees, suppliers, whatever, that we need to use our business to improve the lives of everyone who we touch. And the best way to improve their lives beyond delivering good products and services is by Elevating their emotions. I think people get that, but where they get it wrong is they think, well, the way I can elevate the emotions of my employees is be nice to them.
Yeah.
Give them stuff, right? Gestures of kindness. These things are great, but when you think about whatever groups that you're really loyal to, whether it's your family or religion or military, that kind of thing, that loyalty isn't just because someone was nice to you or they gave you something. It's some very specific things. It's a shared set of beliefs.
Mm-hmm.
And then behaviors, rituals that reinforce those beliefs. You know, the military, people will die for each other. They'll kill for each other. They'll— they call each other brothers and sisters, and not because in boot camp they were being given pizza and because people are nice to them. It's something much deeper. It's about really agreeing on a sense of purpose, on a sense of duty, about really understanding teamwork and then doing things that promote that camaraderie. It's not always nice. It's not always pleasant. Often, it's tough and unpleasant, but the results of that are bonds that last forever. So, it's being very deliberate about getting people to have the same set of beliefs, which speaks to what you're talking about, like values and a sense of purpose. But then also rituals that reinforce that, whether it's a shift lineup meeting, like a pre-shift meeting, right? Or whether it is certain kind of team-building things, whether it's consistent ongoing discussion of values. But in a way that employees understand and not some big abstract thing, right? Or hanging a poster on the wall and think that that's going to instill a mission or values. It's daily discussion at a level that people can really understand. So, they feel the culture as much as they feel the inner workings of the business. That's the stuff that breeds loyalty.
It's so interesting because, of course, in 2016, I started acting. And because of that, I wrote my book. And one of the things I realized was When you're on stage with a bunch of people, you might not get along with everybody. But you perform with everybody. And it was amazing kind of the exercises that I'd learned. And I thought to myself, if businesses could put that much time, attention, and fortitude into their processes as we did to put on 6 shows, we would have amazing businesses. And to your point, it's about those shared experiences, those rituals that we do that help create that bond that keeps us working towards our overall objective. So, I think that's brilliant.
Yeah. But I'm certain that there are some people who are watching this right now who have resistance because they think that we're talking about just soft skills and being nice and being weak, or perhaps that we are capitulating to younger generations that are spoiled and that are coddled. I'm not talking about that at all. I don't want to coddle anyone or spoil anyone. I certainly want to sacrifice my own values. I'm from Generation X. I'm proud of that. We were the perfect generation, especially our music, not the hair, but the music was great. The clothing was great. So, yeah, I have a value system, but I don't think to say, hey, you know what? Here's what we care about. Everything we do, it's about that we are honest with each other, that we want to have a great customer experience, like having these kinds of conversations and asking the employee, hey, what do you care about? What matters to you? What are your goals?
Yeah.
And then every now and then having a conversation connecting this work to their long-term goals. So, it's not about being touchy-feely or even always positive, right? But it's about speaking to them at the human level.
Yes.
That is what works. And all these great organizations who I profile in my book, not only do they have great retention and great experience, all of them are very successful in their industries. I'm talking hard dollars. Right? Great sales, average ticket, oversell. I mean, in the metrics that really matter, there's a correlation between that and what others might see as soft skills, that kind of thing. So, label it how you want. I'm just focusing on what works. In my business, I want to make money. To make money, I have to have a great customer experience. To have that, I have to provide a great employee experience.
Right.
So, whether you're driven by you want to change the world or you want to make a ton of money, To do the best at either requires the same thing, which is focusing on these human factors.
I love that. That is so poignant as far as I'm concerned. It's talking about again something that I've been talking about for about 5 or 6 years now is this transition from being transactional to being relational. And so, we're trying to create relationships with our customers. We should be creating those relationships with our employees so that we become less about the transaction and more about How do we build these human experiences?
Well, I'll share some thoughts. There's one study that I actually write about in the book that's really interesting where they looked at 100,000 managers, mostly of hourly workers, and they surveyed their employees and collected all this information about their perceptions and about these managers. And then they ranked the managers. And so, they isolated one group of managers who employees described as very results-oriented, but not people-oriented, only 9% of that, only 9% of the top 10% of all managers were described that way. So, then they looked at another group. They weren't as results-oriented, but these managers are very people-oriented. They did worse. Only 8% of that group was in the top 10%. But when they looked at managers who employees described as both results-oriented and people-oriented, 82% were in the top 10%. Because it turns out that employees, they don't want somebody who's just nice to them. They want a coach who wins games. They want to work for a manager who gets things done. But here's the thing is both being results-oriented and people-oriented requires using 2 different sides of the brain that can't really operate simultaneously, which means management has to be very deliberate about being results-oriented, Taking a pause and then looking at the people. Most managers are too busy to even think about that because the pizza's gotta get boxed up and delivered and the widgets have gotta get done. They're not thinking in those terms. And so they're not being that kind of manager that employees respond to. But yeah, culture is great and the human stuff is great, but it must be combined with being able to get things done. That's the marriage. That's the winning ticket right there.
Yeah. And so, at the end of the day, everybody walks out knowing that they've accomplished something.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, a great team that doesn't win games isn't gonna last, right? But a winning team where people hate each other, the trophies, the compensation won't be enough. You really have to be deliberate about both. And a lot of work environments do accomplish that.
That's a great metaphor. You have a tool called the 30-second leadership. Could you unpack that a little bit about how it can help manage— help us manage hourly employees more effectively? Sure.
Most managers manage the same way across the board in all situations.
But when you're delivering an important speech, when the spotlight—
am I still on camera, Marc, or? Well, I'm going to go ahead and talking just in case we're still recording. What we need to do when we look at employees is understand there's no such thing as just terrible employees and great employees, right? Usually, we have to break it down by task. You go to a doctor and the doctor is not going to say, you're healthy or unhealthy. The doctor is going to look at your eyes, your ears, your heart, your lungs. And maybe give you a different diagnosis for each and then treatment where you need it. Well, 30 Second Leadership is about diagnosing employees for various tasks and determining what they need based off of where they are. So, there's something called situational leadership, which is out there. And this is a bit of a reaction to that because I don't necessarily agree, but we wanted to create something that was much more simple that a 19-year-old assistant manager at a frozen yogurt shop could use. So, 30 Second Leadership is a way to diagnose employees by looking at their hard skills and their soft skills. And then, based on your diagnosis, determine what is the best coaching in that moment for that employee for that task to boost their performance. And so, it's you being willing for you to change your approach based on what that employee needs. So, it's actually not difficult. It's very simple. But it's really powerful.
Lovely. And the perceptual distortion that one needs to make going from one to the other, I think could be quite awakening. Like when you're that intentional about it, you have your aha moments.
Right. Well, what I tell managers to do is when you're looking at employee performance, to always distinguish is the issue what the employee knows or is the issue what the employee feels or is it a combination of both? In other words, is it a hard skills issue In which case, that's where they need help with more training and feedback.
Yep.
Is it a soft skills issue? In which case, they need more support, encouragement, discipline. Or is it a combination? In which case, that requires the most management, right? But the answer, if you— when you make that distinction, you're going to find it not only does it change from employee to employee, but with one employee, it changes from task to task. So, if we take an employee, we just look at them, that's my superstar employee. If you were to diagnose them for everything they're responsible for, you'll find some tasks where they're not necessarily excelling. But because we've labeled them a superstar employee, we're not necessarily giving them the attention, the training, and the feedback they need for that task. Same is true for the struggling employee. They might be great at one task, but they're not getting the positive reinforcement because we think of them as a problem. So we need to sort of coach the person by focusing on the task at hand. And what do they need to boost their performance for that task?
And in my book, I talk about a story where I was working for a casino. We were in the back room. We were in a management boardroom. And one of the supervisors came in and started talking badly about one particular employee. And I had to stop that whole process because one of the things that I find that we do is yes, we want to vent about stuff that piss us off and so on. But when we start talking derogatorily about— I think I just made up a word— about employees behind the scenes, I can't help but feel it's going to manifest itself in how we deal with the employee face-to-face. Is that a fair assessment?
Yeah, I believe that speaking that way about an employee to anyone else is a violation of any decent culture, right? Any decent work culture should Have some focus on respect and camaraderie, that sort of thing. We do need to discuss employee feedback. But there's a difference between making objective observations and saying, that person's an a-hole, or that person's an idiot, right? And so, it's really focusing on the behavior. And in fact, a big part of— a big thing I discuss in my book is that when you look at employees, I have an exercise where I have them just list all the opinions that you have on your employees.
Yeah.
And then rewrite it so it's more objective. So instead of saying they're snowflakes and they're thin-skinned and they're too emotional, to say, this employee requires more compassion. This employee is more emotionally attuned. I need to be more careful in my conversations. So try to remove all the judgment and the opinion. Not that I'd even disagree with the judgments or opinion, but you'll manage more effectively when you can make it as objective as possible. And you'll be less charged up. It won't upset you as much when you can keep it objective. And I, it's a little bit idealistic, right? Because how can we just turn off our emotions? But the more we can catch ourselves, um, instead of saying they never wanna work to say, wow, their schedules are limited. I need to find a way to create more flexibility. That's constructive. It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong, better or worse. It's constructive. And that's what we want. But yeah, but talking about employees, with that kind of attitude, that kind of tone disrespectfully, it messages something to the people who are hearing saying, wow, next time this person may be talking that way about me. It doesn't promote a loving, healthy culture. It's toxic and ultimately, it's not good for anyone.
I love your stance on this. Could we do a quick check-in? How can people get in touch with you if they want to work with you?
Sure, they can go to my website which is scottgreenberg.com. It's B-E-R-G and Berg. But I pay extra if they spell it with a U. It'll still come to me. So, scottgreenberg.com and I'm pretty easy to find in all the major social media channels.
Yeah, we share a lot of philosophies I find. Probably because we both grew up in the entrepreneurial space of grassroots businesses and so on. And it's interesting the philosophy that you bring forward about this idea of defining culture. In your experiences dealing with franchises and so on, there's obviously the culture of the franchise. There's the culture of the franchisee. And then, there's the culture of the actual working shifts. How do we ensure that when we're not present, when we leave our business in the hands of supervisors or shift supervisors or whatnot, that we know that the culture of what we're trying to accomplish is is intact. What would you suggest on that? Like, what are some of the things that leaders need to be looking at?
Well, culture needs to be continuously reinforced. It's not something you build. It's something you build and maintain. And so, talking about in a franchise system, it's great when the franchisors, they'll establish their mission and their values. But the franchisees are spread out over such a large region that It's really on the franchisee, it's really on the owner to establish the culture, to really invite their managers into that culture, and really have them drink the Kool-Aid and feel it in their bones, and then have rituals within their teams where they're constantly reinforcing it. So, every time you give an employee feedback, you say, you're doing such a great job at that. You're really demonstrating integrity there. That's great.
Mm-hmm.
Or, hey, you know what? I don't appreciate the way you spoke to that customer. customer love or whatever it is. But you're constantly calling back to the values. You're constantly calling back to the culture, rewarding people who strengthen it and disciplining people who weaken it. So, in that way, that culture is always there. Even as employees come and go, the culture maintains. Please go ahead, Marc.
Oh, sorry. As you were saying that, the feedback was twofold. The way that you did the feedback was you recognized the behavior but then you acknowledged the virtue or the values that they're reinforcing, which I think is magical.
Right. Or the values that they're violating.
Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
They need to understand it's not that I don't like the behavior. The behavior violates what we've all agreed upon, which are these values and which is this culture. Right? But it needs to be discussed constantly. Most of the time, culture is just ignored, especially when you get busy. You get in the weeds, culture's the first thing to go out the door because we're just focusing on the work and you gotta find a way to get it in there. But as I said, culture doesn't change. I went to UCLA in the late '80s and early '90s, and there was a fraternity there that was just known as this hardcore party house. And then 6 years ago, my nephew started at UCLA and he ended up pledging that fraternity. It was exactly the same. All the people who were there when I was there are gone. Right? It's all new people, my nephew's age, a generation down, right? But the culture is the same. So, when you have a really strong culture, people can come and go, right? But the culture remains. Well, that's good or bad depending on what the culture is.
That makes perfect sense. But again, that culture is established at the very top of the food chain.
Yes, it has. And then, it's reinforced. And it has to be reinforced. It has to be during their onboarding and their training. And it's best that, you know, when people get trained on their position, living operational, to have another employee, a coworker, train them on the culture. If I hear culture from a coworker, it seems more real.
Mm-hmm.
Right? You want them constantly talking about it. You want to reward and reinforce when people do things that make the culture stronger. And of course, the opposite. You really want to get on people and act fast when they do anything that violates the culture.
We could do a whole show, I think, just on culture, especially the culture that is in that big massive orientation manual that the poor employees gotta read through before they start their first shift. What I'd like to do, maybe if we could talk a little bit about for the people who are tuning in and saying, yeah, I need to make a change. I'd like to talk a little bit about some cautionaries. Some things that we should be a little concerned about to make sure that we're on the right track. And we'll get to that right after this.
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We are having a phenomenal discussion. I'm feeling a little bit guilty because I'm feeling like you and I are having this conversation with people of like minds discussing our passion for what we do. And we're just, you know, the audience is just tuning in to see this really organic conversation happening. But what's interesting was you and I being on the same page. The one thing I do want to let the audience know is that we are really focused on serving you and your team. So, if you're planning a leadership retreat or a conference, or you would like to explore how we could be of benefit to you and your team, feel free to drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. So Scott, I've been a change manager in hospitality for many, many years. And I've gone through trying to do things like change up culture and that sort of thing. And to your point, when crisis hits or when the nose is to the grindstone, sometimes we throw culture out the window and it just doesn't stick. When we think about this idea of how we manage our hourly employees differently from our salaried employees, what are some of the things we should be concerned about so that we don't take a step backwards or we don't fall backwards on a permanent basis?
We need rituals that respect the time and everything that's got to get done, right? For an 8-hour shift, you can't spend 2 hours just on culture. You might only have a few minutes, but you've got to find a way to put those in there so it's important. I'm a big believer in pre-shift meetings, pre-shift huddles. And a big— and it should be a 15-minute meeting where everyone on the shift is standing. And there should be a big chunk of it that focuses on culture. It'd be great if one of the employees themselves can lead that meeting. And then they should talk about other values or go around the circle and everyone says one thing they have done or will do to support the value of the week. Or maybe they stand around and praise each other. The idea is just some time devoted to culture, because not only does that conversation help, but having the conversation in the first place, it sends a message to the team that this business values culture and it's important. And we're going to discuss it while you're on the clock. We're going to pay you to discuss culture because that's how important it is to us. So, I think we have to build time for it. If we don't, that will come as a cost. It'll come at a cost. You'll pay a price for not focusing on culture because then there's always going to be a culture. The best are by design, right? But some are just by default. And you're not going to like the culture you have if you don't design it. And so, That's when people start talking badly about each other, when you start to have callouts and that kind of thing. And so, you really want to make sure that it's a priority. Love it!
One of the best exercises that I adopted later on in my career with organizations is Virtues Pick. There's a thing called Virtues Project and you get virtue cards. And so, one of the things that I adopted was we would pick a virtue out of the deck and then, we would recognize where we needed to work on it. But then, we'd acknowledge other people who have got that virtue. And I can tell you from during a stand-up, that was like a major shift in how people related to one another. It was absolutely brilliant.
They're probably not having conversations like that anywhere else in their lives, which makes your workplace the only emotionally safe place, the only place that is a little bit touchy-feely. But that's what creates loyalty. That's what makes them want to stay. That's what makes them want to work.
And to your point, I love the fact that we're not talking about doing a 3-hour employee retreat where you got to close the store down. We're talking about consistent action on a day-to-day basis that reinforces the values, the beliefs, and the culture of the organization.
That's right.
Love it! Do you have any last thoughts about what we're talking about today?
Well, first, I appreciate having the opportunity even to discuss this. Obviously, I want to promote my speaking work that I do and my book. But I also just like being able to devote 45 minutes talking about something that I think is just really important. And I do think it'll make our world and certainly businesses a much better place just to think beyond all the tasks and the daily operations and really focus on the people. Everyone says we're in the people business, but that doesn't even mean much, right? And so, I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. So, thank you for having me.
I love it. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?
Yes, go to scottgreenberg.com.
Lovely. And you're on LinkedIn as well, right?
Yep, great place to find me.
Terrific! Thank you so much, Scott, for being on the show today. I knew this was going to be a fascinating conversation. It's the quickest 47 minutes I've had in my day so far. So, thank you so much for that.
My pleasure. Let's do it again sometime.
Would love to. Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book time on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or a review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And while you're at it, make sure that you subscribe to this podcast. That way, you get notification whenever I bring you fresh new content each and every week. It has been great hanging out with you. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.
