The Hidden Business Mistakes Costing You Time, Money, and Talent with Dawn Holly Johnson

All right, let's play a little game. Imagine you wake up tomorrow to find that every outdated business practice, every rigid hierarchy, every useless meeting, every because we've always done it this way policy suddenly vanishes. Poof! Gone! Would your business survive or would it finally start to thrive? For decades, businesses have been running on the fumes of outdated Industrial Age strategies. And guess what? It's costing us trillions. Yes, trillions with a capital T every single year. But even worse, it's draining the financial and emotional well-being of employees and society at large. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode! I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And today, my guest is the Future of Business Architect, Don Holley Johnson. And today, we're going to be pulling back the curtains on the outdated business practices that are quietly costing you time, money, and talent. And we're going to be revealing game-changing strategies that will help you build a business that actually work in today's world. If you've ever felt like you're spinning your wheels, constantly putting out fires, or struggling to keep employees and customers engaged, this conversation is going to challenge everything you thought you knew about running a successful business or even a department. My one request is that please, please, please make sure you subscribe to this podcast and please make sure you share it with your circles. I'm sure When you consume content like this, you think, oh, I know somebody who could use this information. Go ahead and share it with them. It's the best way to provide value. And I'd love to see the business community really support the work that I've been doing. By the way, this is my 5th year anniversary show. So it's been free all this time. I'd love to get more support. I'd really love to get up to 5,000 subscribers. So please make sure you go ahead And share this episode. You know, have you ever felt like running a business is just like a big expensive game of whack-a-mole? You solve one problem, bam, and 3 more pop up in its place. Employees are disengaged. Customers are slipping away. Cash flow is tighter than a pair of jeans fresh out of the dryer. And yet, you're grinding harder than you ever have. Here's the wild part. Every company in every industry struggles with the same set of problems. But if everyone has the same problems, doesn't that mean we're all doing something fundamentally wrong? And that brings me to our Question of the Day. So, which of these common business challenges— employee disengagement, Cash flow struggles, weak customer experiences, or constant firefighting feels like the biggest obstacle in your company right now. I'd love to know what your experience is. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and be part of this conversation. My guest today is somebody who doesn't just talk about business transformation. She's been in the trenches. She's rolled up her sleeves and delivered real measurable results. With a career spanning every major industry and organization of all sizes from the scrappy little startups to Fortune 100 giants, Dawn Holly Johnson has helped companies generate over $5.2 billion in revenue and $1 billion in operational profit margin gains. And that's not a typo. That's billions with a capital B. But here's what really sets Dawn apart. She doesn't just fix problems. She helps leaders see the invisible forces holding their businesses back. She challenges everything we assume about how companies should be structured, how leadership should function, and what it actually takes to build a prosperous sustainable business for both the bottom line and the people who really make all this happen. Dawn is the author of What CEOs Need to Know and a sought-after advisor for leaders who are ready to ditch outdated industrial-era business practices and build something that actually work in today's world. Dawn, welcome to the show. I am so excited that you're here.

I'm excited to be here, Marc. It's fantastic to be here for your 5th anniversary.

5th anniversary.

I'm so excited about that for you.

Yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, it's been a ride. My goodness.

And here we are, a couple of fellow Canucks.

I tell ya.

Yeah.

And for the Americans, the Canucks means Canadians. Hey, maybe you can dig a little bit deeper into who your clients are. Like what kind of clients are you servicing and what do you do for them? What are you helping them with?

Well, I work with startups and small and medium enterprises to help them actually design their business to scale and grow with the most effective and efficient structure possible. And inside of that, what we bring is a much more exciting and useful work environment for people so they actually know what value they're bringing in the world. They get to enjoy their work. I don't know how many employees have come to me over the years to say, oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. I actually look forward to going to work now every day. And the same with customers. That's where that additional $5.4 billion in revenue came from, is, is me working with those businesses such that they delivered so much higher value in less time that customers bought more. So, they didn't even have to look for new ones. I mean, it's just incredible results that I didn't expect. But that's what came about. And I knew I was onto something.

Yep, something magical. So, why don't we start with like the big picture? Why do so many businesses still operate using the strategies and structures that were designed really during the Industrial Revolution when it was all about getting performance and getting production from human beings?

Well, there's a few reasons for that, Marc. One is that we have some systems in place worldwide that continue to drag us back, such as traditional accounting practices, as an example. Okay? So, we have certain systems in place that pull us back. The other thing is that it's simply a paradigm issue, right? So, we are born and raised into hierarchies. Everything we're taught, you know, the kids that are a grade above us are better and smarter than we are, and so on and so forth. And in organizations, it's like, I want to climb the ladder and— You know, it's like, is that why we're really here? Is that why we're really here? But there are a variety of practices that we all take on because that's the way it's always been done and it's not questioned, right? So, what I got to the root cause of is the fact that if I saw these same problems in all these companies, then they must have something in common. And I got to the very structure of business and certain systems. that are in place worldwide that need dismantling. In fact, I'm a huge Bucky— Buckminster Fuller, a huge fan of him, because he said, you know, why would you try to fix the old model? Throw it out and get a new one. And so, the companies I work with, we start with the new model. If they're smaller organizations, that's easier because we can just say, here's how you want to work. And here's what you're up to in the world, and let's design your business to actually accomplish that.

Yeah.

And for larger organizations, we have to take them through a transformation to get there, but it's totally doable. And instead of trying to fix the current company, we instead go to what we call a greenfield. It's like, let's start fresh over here and slowly move people and technology over. So, it doesn't have to be difficult. And this is one of the things I like to tell people is different doesn't mean difficult, but it is a paradigm shift. And so in my book, I spent a tremendous amount of time. I spent 4 and a half years writing it. I think it was Mark Twain that said, you know, I would have written a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time. So I took the time to create a short book that's an easy read. And the whole part one is going through all these traditional practices that we assume work for us. And I show how they not only harm business performance, but also harm your customers and your employees. And then you begin to also question the same paradigm. And that's a good thing because I can't tell you, do it now, go do it this way when your belief system is back over here, right? So, it's being able to wake people up. And it's no one's fault. We're born into this. way of thinking, but it's time to think differently. And this is why some of these new challenges have surfaced, such as we can't keep top talent. What do we do with these millennials and Gen Zers? And right, well, they don't want to work in that old construct.

It doesn't work for them.

Yeah. I don't blame them. I think I've always been in their court, even though I was born way before they were. I've been questioning it all along because I had the naive thought when I began working professionally that we were all here to work together and to make things happen. And that was not my experience.

It's so funny that that's the way the corporations talk about it, but that's not actually the reality of how it all comes together. And, you know, what's interesting in what you were saying about this whole idea of kind of reinventing our businesses, and I can see like millions of people watching the show because of course we have millions of people Watch. Okay, maybe we have 1,000 people. Okay, maybe 5 people. But I can imagine that they're watching this just cringing now and going, it's so hard to make a change like that. How would you even conceive about that?

Yes, it is.

But the metaphor that popped in my head as you were speaking was the cell phone industry, right? When they first invented mobile phones, everything was a— the parameters are what is a normal phone. And so, if you remember the big brick, And people had handsets, right?

Yeah.

And it wasn't until somebody like Apple said, let's just rethink this whole idea of what it means to have a cell phone, because we had flip phones, and again, it had the ear mouthpiece, and it was still based on the same paradigm. It wasn't until Apple came around and said, let's just rethink the whole idea around cell phones, that they were able to actually create something absolutely phenomenally different than anything we ever grew up with— rotary phones, push-button phones, and so on. And because of that, it just skyrocketed. And so, what you're basically suggesting is if we do that with our businesses by taking a look at outdated business practices that we could actually reseed and create something better than we've ever had before.

Absolutely! You know, you think today. You think about the old days where we were tethered to the wall with the telephone. We couldn't even actually wander around the house, right? I mean, you would sit—

Come on, it was 30 feet long and you had to sit there and you had to let it unwind. And because it was just— it was so crazy that every time you took it off the wall that your sister, your brother didn't wind it. And so then it all gets all caught up and gnarly and everything. And no, no. Oh, I'm sorry for all those people who might— were born in, uh, later than 1995. I'm terribly sorry, we just made a reference that you have no idea. You're gonna have to Google it.

Yeah, but we're still actually working that way. People are tethered to a job description And they know this much about how the company actually functions. Nobody's actually ever shown how the whole company works because no one knows.

Right, right. And you know, it's funny because when I talk to entrepreneurs and I say things like, have you ever talked to your staff about your financials? And they go, oh God, no. Well, why not? Well, because I don't want them to know we're in trouble. And I thought, if they know that you're in trouble, wouldn't they be kind of helping you bail? Like, wouldn't they— if you know your ship is leaking, instead of hiding it, wouldn't they be there with a bucket helping you bail? And then, of course, the people who are doing well, well, I don't know what— I don't want them to know what profit I'm making because then they'll want a raise. It's like we have all these mindset things that hold us back.

That comes from the hierarchical thinking. So, one of the paradigms I challenge is why are only senior leaders given bonuses?

Right.

Why are only the top people incentivized? And they'll say, well, we have a tougher job. But at the end of the day, who's actually delivering value to the customer?

Yes.

Everything in the upper half of the hierarchy is overhead.

Even when you think about those practices of giving leaders bonuses, like I can't tell you the number of businesses I've come across where the staff are stressed because we don't have the resources. We don't even have a photo— somebody told me the other day, we don't even have a photocopier that works, right? It takes them like 15, 20 pages before they get one copy that they can send to a customer.

Yes.

And then, on top of it all, they are struggling with the fact that they don't have enough staff. Well, what are the leaders being incentivized with? Lower costs. Lower your labor cost. Be more productive. And then, what ends up happening is when you do need people, they're like, okay, we'll wait a couple of months. Just pick up the slack. We'll wait a couple of months. And why? Because if they show lower numbers, they're going to get a bonus.

So, that's one of the traditional practices that I debunk in my book.

Yeah.

Is arbitrary bonuses and goals because they're typically arbitrary.

Yes.

You know, there's a pin on the wall saying we want to get to here. But at the end of the day, I question, why are you in business in the first place?

Right.

And as I was writing my book, I had certain definitions in my head of what I thought Like an organization should be. Webster's Dictionary version is that an organization is simply a group of people brought together to deliver on a purpose. And I can tell you, there hasn't ever been an organization where I've been able to randomly choose people in the organization and say, what's your purpose?

Yes.

Yes.

They don't know. No one knows. So, the purpose is not to deliver product and services. No, people buy value. So just like the cell phone, just like when Apple came out, right, that became valuable.

Yeah.

And people started buying it because it was a completely different thing, but it was the value it brought— portability, right, ease of use. It's like a mini computer, so it's not just a phone, it does all these other things for me. So that was— it's the value that it brought that had it People get price and value crossed up, right? Not the same thing, right? So people will pay an exorbitant amount of money for something if they think it's highly valuable to them.

It's interesting to see now with our political climate where values are coming into the mix as well. Now when we see things happening with Tesla and the outrage behind Elon Musk and everything, we're seeing kind of Values now are starting to play a part in how companies are represented and how they shine within their marketplace.

Yeah, it's interesting. So, at the end of my book, I actually come up with models for government, healthcare, education, business, and different businesses, product business, widget businesses, services, tech, etc. They're similar in that at the highest level, they're exactly the same. Where you have to start with is what's the value you're delivering? So as they're disseminating the US government and looking at, is this really valuable, this program? Is it really? Or was it some bureaucratic agreement that will put this in and then, you know, I'll have $1 million for my next campaign versus is it really adding value to society? And at the end of the day, that's the question.

Mm-hmm.

What value are you bringing to society? And there are certain organizations that bring zero value to society, but they're thriving, even Fortune 100s, right?

Mm-hmm.

So we as consumers have to question, is this really valuable to me? And I fire every company that I don't feel like I am being taken care of as a customer.

Right.

If— unless I'm stuck in a monopoly, I look for another organization to provide those services for me. Because it's my spend dollar that's going to make the difference.

Yes.

But internally, that's the first step is you've got to determine the purpose of your organization. So we want to create more freedom for people or whatever that looks like, or more prosperity for people. And then, okay, so then what are the different value propositions that you are delivering? The first mistake in that exercise is I see a lot of process, policy, etc., is very internally focused. Well, that's our policy. Well, that's taking care of you. You're not taking care of me as your customer with your policy. So, I'm happy you wrote that, but it's— you're missing the fact that it adds zero value to me. In fact, it detracts from me, and I'm going somewhere else. So one of the things that's happening with the chat box is you go, you know, you don't get a live person anymore. Well, the only reason I'm calling an organization is I've looked at the FAQs. I've read them already. I don't have an answer, right? It's probably a problem you're not even aware of. And of course, I find process issues all the time. I mean, I'm built that way. So I will call and it will take me up to 45 minutes to get a live person. So they'll keep throwing FAQs at me instead of just saying, did you happen to look at our FAQs? Yes. Yes, I already did. Oh, okay. Then we'll get you a live person.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, don't throw your efficiency gains on me. You've just given me 45 minutes of work, but you, because you had arbitrary goals of cost savings or whatever on your side, you cut a bunch of jobs, threw in some chatbots and said, look at what I did for our P&L.

Yep. Yep.

You're gonna lose customers. People get frustrated. So, you know, I'm not saying there's not value to a chatbot, but it's not designed as valuable to the consumer. Typically, it's designed as value to the organization. And that's a huge mistake. A huge mistake. Yeah.

We cannot trade off human contact and human relationship building to the computers in the guise of efficiency.

Correct, correct. And there's some people that never bothered to do the FAQs and wanted to call in. But you know what, we deserve an option right away to talk to someone, and that's the way business goes. You know, I'm having a problem with your organization, I've done my research, I can't figure this out, and I'm, you know, pretty sharp, right? Tech sharp. And so if I can't figure it out, other people are having the problem. And, you know, I I take every survey I get from every company. I love giving them feedback no matter what it is, because that's the way they learn. But you need to be hearing from your customers. And it's just so critically important to take that first step and understand what value you're delivering. And internally, you're not going to come up with it. You have to ask your customers and potential customers, especially if you're a startup, Is this valuable in the world? Because you develop some awesome thing, you think it's awesome, right? But you've got to talk to people and see what value they see in it. That's your marketing ploy. That's your operational focus. It is not anything else.

It's interesting because a lot of the solutions being kind of wangled now in Kind of compensating for this industrial age kind of mindset to what is needed today. And a lot of people are talking culture, culture, culture. And it's such a hot topic. But what I'm getting from you is culture change alone isn't the answer.

No.

So, why doesn't motivation and culture building fix kind of these deeper issues?

Because you still have all the old systems and processes and constructs. And so, you're going to get sucked back into— your environment is your reality. People behave depending on their environment. So, if you still have these deep command and control, functionally segregated hierarchies, you can rah, rah, rah the troops all you want. And companies often say, our people are our most important asset.

Oh, yeah.

And I will tell you this, if they are, then give them good process.

Yeah.

Because most processes are so broken in organizations. And employees are floundering, trying to serve in some capacity, and they can't because of the bureaucracy, the politics, the bad process, the dropped balls, the you name it. They are trying, trying, trying. You know, 99% of people go to work wanting to do a great job.

Right.

They really do. They want fulfillment in their life. Right. And you're not designed to actually provide any of that and make anything work. And so, you can rah the troops all you want, but at the end of the day, you're not in the deep trenches with them dealing Right.

And dealing— well, I mean, but again, there's tons of indicators that show that you're in that mess, right? I mean, people aren't sticking around. They're stressed all the time. There's a lot of probably sick calls and wellness issues and that sort of stuff. And then, of course, at the end of the day, it's all about striving for that customer dollar, right? You can't affect the employees in a negative way and not expect that it's going to affect customers in a negative way as well.

You know, it's interesting to me how the latest thing, and I think COVID kind of set it off, is that now the thing to do is to create customer experience and employee experience and engagement managers or directors. Create a title in the hierarchy. And these poor people, I interact with a lot of them. They have no power to actually make the changes they need to change. It's a figurehead, right? Like, oh, see, now we care about customer experience. So, I'm going to ask, why didn't you always? Why isn't your organization designed customer-centric?

Yes.

Because it's not. It's designed to command and control people.

Yes. Well, and I have tons of experiences with that, even with telecom companies. Up here in Canada, we don't have as many telecom companies as they have in the United States. So like cell phone coverage and service is really, really, really expensive. And we only have a couple of companies that we can go to. And so, when the contract is over and you go to a new company and you say, what can you give me? And then you go back to your existing company, And then they bounce back and forth with, uh, that's the best we can do and all that. And then I signed on with the new company, and then 2 months later I get a call from my old company saying, oh, but we can do this for you, we can do so much better for you. And it's like, why did you give me that chance when I first told you I would be switching? Why did you wait for me to have to make that decision? Because I gave you ample time. And they said, well, we can't get all our agents to give them— give you the deals, because then they'll all give deals. And it's like, oh, so is that how your organization works? Command and control.

Yeah.

But there's a lot of dissonance in organizations. Everything's kind of scattered and going like this. And so, that also creates an energy that people are dealing with every day. And as an empath, I can tell you that I used to work in some organizations and just feel the suffering.

Yeah. I'd love to dig into some strategies. I think we've outlined the existence of the problem. And I'm hoping that people tuning in will say, yeah, you know what? that describes me. So, I'd love to get into some strategies of how leaders can start kind of breaking free from these outdated models and start thinking about their businesses differently. And we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, Business Operational Excellence Through the Lens of Live Theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights! Camera!

Action!

today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com. Welcome back! I'm speaking with the fabulous Don Holly Johnson. And Don, if a leader wants to break free from these outdated models, where do they start? Because there are so many different constructs In a business now, how do they get started?

Well, the first step is to define the purpose of the organization. And that's not just for the top leadership to determine. It's involving the whole organization. You know, you could do a quick pulse survey or whatever you want to do. But what do you see the purpose of this organization being? And in the past, the old practices are we got a mission statement. We have a vision statement. Those fall short for me. They're typically a placard on the wall that nobody can recite. If people understand the purpose of being there, they will show up every day ready to go. So purpose is number one. And inside of that purpose, then what value are you bringing to the world to deliver on the purpose? And you need to define that and you need to understand that from potential customers and customers and the marketplace in general. Where's the marketplace going? What value can we bring that doesn't exist currently in the marketplace?

Yeah.

A lot of the green technologies, as an example, are looking through that lens. So we have to do that first because that's our North Star. So now everyone in the organization should understand the value that's being delivered, not just top leadership, everyone. And then secondly, the second step is you actually redesign the business. So you see the common practices that happen is there's a lot of reorganizations, especially In the larger companies, they actually reorganize about every 3 months at huge expense and confusion because the processes are so broken. Employees know what people to go to. They don't know the process, the overall process. And so things get disconnected. And, but every leader thinks their design is going to be better, but at the end of the day, it's still a top-down control and command functionally based hierarchy. It's the same. I can take any org chart from any organization, change a few titles in the department headers, and from healthcare to aerospace, same org chart shape exactly.

Yeah.

So, we've got to really look at that. And that is actually the core reason why we're dealing with the top problems in any organization. The hierarchy drives All of it. It drives the need to control people, keep them dumbed down to a job description instead of knowing what's going on. It incentivizes it. What it creates automatically is people managing people. And typically, I mean, the Peter Principle was written about in the late '60s, but the best one in the group that's good at doing that job, let's say the best engineer is now promoted to manage the engineering group.

Well, yeah.

You just lost your best engineer.

And what got him into being an engineer doesn't make him a great leader, right? So, we see that time and time again.

That's what happens. So, organizations are fraught with weak leaders and weak managers. And the new model is you don't really need a lot of that.

Yeah. So, let's talk a little bit about that because I know that you have— you mentioned before about having value-based structure. How does a shift to kind of a value-based structure affect leadership roles? What does it look like? And does it require leaders to fundamentally change how they operate in their businesses?

Well, yes, absolutely. And as we think of hierarchical leadership roles actually go away. They're unnecessary.

Right.

Hate to tell you.

So, what does an organization look like then from a structure, from a value-based structure, and from the roles of leaders within an organization like that?

So, to give people a little background, I grew up in aerospace in one of the leading organizations that was bringing in Six Sigma and eventually Lean Six Sigma. I became a process engineer, Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt, and I had the opportunity to look at company-wide process. I was also a quality assurance engineer. I understood all the policies and procedures in the organization. And so, I, as a big picture person, loved that view because I could see how the whole organization worked and where all the dysfunction was. And it gave me the opportunity to realize that people don't focus on process. They focus on managing people and then bringing in new tech to fix the process issues. Now, I'm not saying tech isn't needed, but it's rare that companies actually start with the value proposition and then designing the value delivery process to actually deliver on that value. That should be the primary focus. Because how are you going to deliver that value? By creating a bunch of functional departments or by actually creating a powerful process to deliver that and enabling the process with people and technology? So, process comes first. And so, you often hear, well, our people are number one. Well, they are, but they will come and go, and your tech will come and go, but your process is what's delivering the value. People and technology are enabling it. So, you have to design that delivery process, and that becomes the formal structure of your business. And if you have multiple product lines, then each of those is their own value delivery process and their own P&L, because that's how you— that's why you're in business, period. And guess what? When you give people purpose, when everyone's clear on the value to deliver, number one, they make great decisions now. Because they're clear on what's going on in the organization. The process is transparent, and I don't necessarily have to have a job description. Here's our value proposition and our value delivery process. I happen to have these skill sets, innate talents that I am very passionate about, right? And I can help over here, and I can help down here too, guys. And so, why not? Why am I stuck in a function in one area where I could also— be contributing to the team in another area. And I can tell you that if you give a team a clear purpose and a clear value proposition and the resources they need to get that job done, they will pull it off. And in fact, probably exceed your expectations. And they don't need micromanaged to do that. People will come together and you can look at it. Whenever a disaster happens, right, teams that network instantly form of people, and they have a purpose, and they're going to deliver X, where it might be food to people that are displaced, it might be whatever it is, and they will come together, and they will make that happen. And there's not a bunch of people managing it.

Right.

It's grassroots, just happens. People are built that way. They're built for community. They're not built to be stuck in a silo, in a cubicle, and you don't need to know that and just do your job. It's deplorable.

I really love that because I've been saying for ages that, you know, when we put people into a job description, the job description was fine for defining basically some of the roles and responsibilities that a person has. But at the same token, I find that all too often organizations constrict people within the job description. And I truly believe that every single person brings something magical to the table. And unfortunately, when people come into a job description, all that magic gets tempered down. And until we, as leaders, know who's capable of doing what, we're actually just holding back an asset, a true asset to our business, because we're not letting people shine.

That's correct. And the biggest mistake folks make in designing these value delivery processes is they don't include a process engineer, which is actually trained to design a really Fantastic process that's measurable and holds everyone to account, which also hierarchies are, interestingly enough, even based on their structure, you think they would drive accountability, but there's complete lack of accountability in a hierarchy. I have seen several people be able to hide in a hierarchy, deliver absolutely nothing every day, but they keep their jobs. And I mean, right? And, and they're, or they're not fulfilled and they're just hanging out because they got stock in a company and I mean, they're so depressed and I think, wow, you know, you have so much talent. And, you know, folks, don't trade your health for money. Don't do it. And you know what? Everyone's born with beautiful talents and you go find someplace where you can thrive and use those talents and you're appreciated, which comes to step 3.

In this paradigm, so now that we're in step 3 in this paradigm, What needs to change in how leadership is trained and developed? What needs to change so that we create these functional people who become more coaches rather than managers?

Yes. Well, I believe in natural-born leaders. So, unlike the hierarchy, which creates artificial leadership, right? Natural-born leaders. There are people that naturally know to empower people.

Right.

That know they don't have all the answers. That listen to their teams. Those are the people you want to head those value delivery processes. They will be in your organization. You need to find them. And they're the ones that are going to be the leaders.

So, you're not talking about your peak performers then necessarily. You're talking about the people who might show natural leadership capacity within their organization where they are. And then, promote and train them to help lead and help guide.

They don't even need to be functional experts. They need to be fantastic empowerment leaders.

Yeah, yeah.

That's what the team needs. So, that responsibility of that leader is to empower that team. And when the team comes to them, and this also doesn't happen in the hierarchy, with an actual business case to say, here's why we need this resource, whether it be equipment, a new technology, whatever it is, and here's the difference it's going to make for our customers. And here's the cost. And that leader can say, okay, fantastic, great business case. I'm going to bring you those resources, whether it be capital or whatever it is, and you guys go do that. So, that value stream being its own P&L. Now, some people may argue, well, hold on, we have different P&Ls in our organization, different product lines, but you're still in the hierarchy. So, you're creating so much inefficiency and dismay. It's sad. But ultimately, that leader enables the team.

Yes.

Enables the team. I'm not saying that there's not a need for a CEO and senior leaders, because the CEO is also external-facing for the organization. There's a job there to be done.

Right.

But unfortunately, in a hierarchy, the CEO is the only one that actually can see the whole org. But it's like being on an iceberg, they really can't see below the waterline. And everything that's going on below is actually what's making everything happen. One of the other failures inside of the old construct is the financial focus that's given all the time. And so decisions are made financially. You kind of alluded to some earlier, and I have a funny telecom story inside that too. As I was actually walking process from end to end, they, this telecom company, as they were implementing fiber in these huge, you know, Down in businesses, not residential. And their cycle times kept getting longer. So what used to average 2 to 3 months was now about 6 months, and they just couldn't figure it out. And of course, they kept quick-reacting, quick fixes, trying to fix it. And as I'm walking the process, I'm talking to a project manager in the field, and she said, we have no color printers anymore. Somebody cut the budget on that, and I'm sure they were patted on the back for saving the organization millions of dollars. She said, now I've got both hands tied behind my back because it's industry standard that we use color on our blueprints in the field that are printed out. And so we're constantly fixing errors now because we don't have color printers.

All to save the 22-cent-per-page differential that color ink. And I don't even think it's that much anymore with toner and all that sort of stuff. It's so funny how these processes are so limited and so short-focused without delving deeper into why are we actually doing this. For those people tuning in who are realizing that yes, there might be something, some challenges within their organization they need to address, what cautionaries and pitfalls should they be aware of as they try to make To do this idea of creating a greenfield, of testing, of reinventing, and then testing, what should they be aware of?

Well, I caution that if step 1 is not done, there's no sense trying.

Right.

So, if we're not clear on purpose and value proposition, I would just move on. You know, so you can bring that to your leadership and say, and the current paradigm is, you know, make the culture better. So, you can use that, guys, because that's what people can hear right now. You know, in order for us to have better employee engagement, to have better productivity, et cetera, this is the recommendation. We first need to define the purpose of our organization and the value we actually deliver. And then everyone in the organization needs to contribute to that concept as well as engage in it and agree that they will, that they're actually enrolled in delivering that value. Some may leave because it's like, oh, that's not what I thought I was delivering.

Right.

I don't believe in that value. And they may leave.

Or they leave because now there's new sets of accountability that they know that they're not on board with.

That's right. That's right. And so, that's the first start. And then, you would take probably your simplest product line, and that's end-to-end. That's from product development, marketing, sales. I'm talking all of it. Often, this is done just in operations.

Yeah.

And all the admin is a mess. spaghetti. So, I'm talking womb to tomb, lay out that process, and then start recognizing what do we need to be able to deliver, which is called a capability. What do we need to be able to deliver inside this process to deliver value?

Yeah.

And then figure out where technology can enable it and where people can enable it, and then set that up. And you watch, you watch, The money you will save, the time you will quit wasting, the satisfaction increase in your employees and your customers. I mean, everything will change with that. And then you've got buy-in, and then you can take on the next one and the next one. And, you know, for smaller organizations, they get to set themselves up with this concept from the beginning. So, when they scale, They do it as efficiently and effectively as possible. They'll lower their burn rates. They won't waste a lot of time and money trying to get going. Because many companies talk about, well, we're growing, or we want growth, and they'll sell, sell, sell. And then the organization's unable to actually deliver. The quality starts to fail. The timing starts to fail because they're not scalable. And a hierarchy is the worst thing to scale.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that.

It's the worst model.

So, you mentioned earlier about having a process person come in, a process engineer, or somebody who's a specialist in that. If this is resonating with the audience, how could somebody get in touch with you to hire you, to bring you in? What do they need to know?

Well, I'm happy to have a conversation with anyone. I've always offered that. I like to offer as much value as possible, find out what you're really dealing with. See if it's a mutually beneficial thing for us to continue talking. My website's dawnhollyjohnson.com. Pretty simple and prevalent on LinkedIn. Also have a newsletter there. And so you type Dawn Holly Johnson, that's D-A-W-N, or as the New Yorkers say, Dawn. Okay, so get that A and W in there. dawnhollyjohnson.com, or I mean on LinkedIn, and I'll pop right away.

Terrific.

And it would have been forever and a day.

So, as we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts?

Well, I just want to say that step 4 is the actual cultural piece, the mindset shift that comes with this new design. And it's much easier to implement the accountability structures, incentive structures, and have people focused on long-term, not the short-term quick fix. And so, the culture does shift, but without the environmental and the North Star focus, you can't shift it. So, culture, of course, people are— I'm in this for the people.

Right.

I can bring money all day long. I'm in this for people. And at the end of the day, that culture will become collaborative, productive, innovative. Hierarchies also aren't innovative. They don't generate innovative thought. And therefore, you're constantly keeping up with the marketplace. So, the culture Chefs. And that's, that's step 4. So I just want to put that in there.

Lovely. Dawn, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate you being here today and sharing your knowledge and your passion. This has been an excellent way for people to start looking at their businesses and shake things up. I really appreciate you doing this for us.

Oh, thank you so much. It is my passion to create a world that thrives, and it started with my recognizing I didn't I didn't want my daughters to have the difficulty and suffering career that I had in corporate America. I just don't want that for anyone in the world.

Most people have. Thank you again. I really appreciate it. Hey, if you have any questions about today's episode, or maybe you've been thinking, hey, we could really use a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with Marc or with Dawn. Well, the good news is you can And snag a spot on my calendar for me, you can just hit the link below, the one marked meetwith.marchaine.com, and you're all set. And if you'd like to make some time with Dawn, her contact information is also there. Feel free to reach out because at the end of the day, it's all about what your needs are. And always, you know, we are service-focused. We are here to help you. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead, subscribe to this podcast, and follow me on social media. You can find me anywhere, marchaine.com or Marc Haine across all the different platforms. Thank you so much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

Thank you for joining us this week on Experience Leadership. Make sure you visit marchaine.com For a full directory of available episodes. While you're at it, if you found today's content invaluable, please share it and tell your friends about the show. As Marc says, knowledge is power, but only if you share it. Be sure to tune in each week for the newest episode. Please stay safe, stay healthy, and—

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