The Leadership Skill Nobody Trained You For with Drs. Dennis and Michelle Reina

Let me ask you something that might be a little bit uncomfortable. Have you noticed how long it takes your teams to make decisions lately? How conversations maybe feel cautious? How collaboration feels like it's forced instead of natural? This is not a strategy problem. It's not a motivation problem. The real problem is Trust. And it might be costing you far more than you think. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership, a podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, Customer Experience Expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera! Action!, customer experience expert Marc Haine.

Welcome to this episode of Experience Leadership. I am your host, customer and employee experience strategist Marc Haine. I am so glad that you're here with us today because my guest for this episode are Dr. Dennis Reyna and Dr. Michelle Reyna. And we will take a hard look at what really happens when trust erodes inside our organizations and what leaders can do to rebuild trust that actually drives results. I do have one simple request though. If there's somebody in your circle who could benefit from the insights that we're sharing with you today, please do them a favor. Pass along a link to this episode. And if you haven't done so yet, Please make sure you're subscribed to this podcast. You know, trust is one of those words leaders love to put on the wall and quietly ignore in practice. I mean, maybe they think it's there. You know, I know people trust me. I mean, we assume it's there. We assume it'll survive the everyday pressures. We assume one bad moment won't really matter. But trust rarely breaks in one dramatic explosion. It erodes in tiny moments. Missed follow-throughs, unclear communication, unspoken frustrations until one day momentum is gone and you look around and wonder why. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. If trust inside your organization were measured today, would the results accelerate performance Or quietly explain why things feel harder than they should. As I mentioned, I'd love for you to share your experiences. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and put your comments down. I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. As I mentioned today, my guests today are 2 people who have devoted their lives to understanding one of the most misunderstood forces in leadership and business. Dr. Dennis Reyna And Dr. Michelle Rayner are internationally recognized pioneers in organizational trust. They're bestselling authors of Trust and Betrayal in the Workplace and the co-founders of Rayner Trust Building. Their work has helped leaders in Fortune 500 companies, government agencies— gosh knows we need trust there— healthcare systems also need trust there, and nonprofits around the world to help them understand how trust is built, sustained, measured, and repaired when it is broken. But this isn't just academic for them. Trust is personal, it's professional, it's their life's work. And with their upcoming book, The Art of Trust Building, they continue to turn trust from a vague ideal into practical leadership skills. Dennis and Michelle, welcome. It's so great to have you.

It's great to be here, Marc. Thank you so much for having us.

Thank you, Marc.

Maybe we could start off a little bit about— let's dive a little bit deeper into what you do, who your clients are, and how do you serve them?

We work with organizations all over the world, big and small, and essentially help them transform their cultures by building high-trust relationships.

And so when you have these clients, I mean, at what point does a client turn to you and call you up and say, I think trust sucks, can you please help me? Or are there indicators that say that they need help? Because I have a sneaking suspicion it's not the former.

You know, some of your opening comments were right on cue. You know, some of the most common things we hear leaders talk with us about is, Why is collaboration suffering? You know, people working within silos rather than across silos. Why change initiatives are stalling out. Why people are having a hard time making decisions. Things are getting bogged down, taking a long time. Rather than talking with one another, people are talking around one another. You know, often some of the indicators are engagement. You asked a question about, well, if you could measure trust, what would happen?

Uh-huh.

Well, often people are looking at the quality of trust through things like engagement scores or retention analysis. So when engagement scores are stalling out or declining, there are trust indicators all the way around that, because when trust is high, people are engaging. So at the end of the day, when leaders are calling us, they're trying to understand why people are doing their second best rather than their best, and why teams are not firing on all cylinders, and why growth isn't happening at the magnitude in which the executive leadership needs it to happen. And change. Change is so pervasive right now, and organizations are asking people to step into the unknown, to manage ambiguity, and to embrace the kind of uncertainty that comes in the lay of the land that we are all living in. So those are some of the scenarios that leaders are calling in. And turning us to, turning to us for.

Yeah. And also there's the teams are reluctant to collaborate. Teams are, you know, instead of jumping in with 2 feet, they're questioning and doubting and, and do they really mean this? Or are they really, are they for real? Or are they just giving us another political line or spiel? And so trust When teams are based upon a foundation of trust, they jump in, they collaborate, they don't hesitate, they don't second-guess, they don't gossip about one another. They're fully committed. They deliver on time every time.

So what are leaders misunderstanding about trust right now? Like, so what's the pervasive kind of mindset when trust is low and they're just shrugging going, I don't know what's wrong.

I think you said something at the opening that was rather brilliant. You commented, Marc, oh, we have trust, and here's a sign on the wall, so to speak. And that really caught Dennis's and my attention because, you know, so often leaders espouse trust as a value. They espouse trust as something that they believe in. It may be in their mission statement, their vision statement. It may be held as a leadership competency. But, you know, talking about it and posting it is not what earns it. What earns it, the only thing that earns it is how we show up and behave.

And there are 3 dimensions, Marc. There are 3 dimensions of trust that we have found over our 35 years of research and writing and speaking and consulting in this field. There's trust of character. We basically do what we say we do. We deliver as promised, and we're consistent in our behavior, and our expectations are in line and And understood. Then there's trust of communication. We openly and honestly communicate with one another. We speak transparently with one another, and we tell the truth. And if we can't, we admit mistakes. You know, we don't just try to hide or cover them up. We fess up and we take responsibility. And then there's trust of capability. We acknowledge and leverage the skills of one another. in service to our clients and our customers. Those 3 at a high level are the dimensions that we have found that contribute to building trust each and every day.

Yeah.

And there are different behaviors under each dimension.

And there, there is a solution, Marc, to the very challenge we just talked about. You know, because when a leader takes trust and posts it on the wall as something that's really important to them, it genuinely, generally and genuinely is.

It is.

Leaders don't espouse the importance of it if they don't believe in it. The challenge is that often leaders misunderstand how to actually live that, how to take it off the wall and put it into motion. So the 3 dimensions Dennis just talked about in the behaviors is what helps them back that up. They can talk about it, but help them back that up in action in words.

And in our new book right over here, The Art of Trust Building, that you mentioned in the intro, we actually go into, and each, with each dimension, there's a chapter on each dimension and we lay it out. You know, we take the concept and put it into practice. We take the abstract and give people actionable behaviors that build trust and rebuild trust when it's been tarnished, eroded, or broken. And this book helps people in their everyday lives. It's not just a, a feel-good topic. It helps them from a practical, actionable standpoint.

So to roll us back, I really wanna get into the 3 C's and, and kind of what people can do to kind of reignite the 3 C's. But I, I think that for some reason there's kind of a perception about trust, or there are myths about trust. Are there any myths about trust that we need to bust today? Before we kind of dig a little bit deeper in giving people the tools, what's mindset looking like? What are the things people are saying as far as the myths that they believe is a really great way to be able to fire, quote unquote, trust?

There's a few things that came to my mind. I think one myth is that people have a tendency to wait for leaders to take the first step. And yes, leaders, leaders do need to role model. They do. But yet trust begins with each and every one of us. Trust is not singularly a leadership responsibility. It's really everybody's responsibility. And everybody can learn how to bring themselves to relationships in trustworthy ways. It's the language and the actions that people need to be supported to learn and discover. So trust beginning with me, trust beginning with us breaks a myth that we really can't take a step in building a culture of trust. We gotta wait and see what our leader does.

And also the fact is that people need to understand that trust is not just a nice thing to have. It's a business imperative. You know, that people—

Yeah, it's essential.

And they, as Michelle said, they don't have to wait. That they can take that first step. They can jump in. They can make that call. They can write that email. They can take that initiative.

That, that brings us to another key myth is that trust is nebulous, that it is, you know, esoteric, that it's not measurable. Those are 2 very, very common myths. I talked about, I'm talking about 2 in parallel process. Yes, trust may be held esoterically as a value and a belief, But it, it actually is something that is built through behavior. It can be very concrete and actionable. The other myth is that it's not measurable, and trust actually is measurable. We've been measuring it for over 30 years. In fact, what we find is that measuring, assessing trust is extremely valuable because it gives everybody a starting point. Everybody needs to know where trust stands now. So actually in the new book, Marc, we include in the book a link to an individual trust assessment. We have learned through our years working with teams and leaders and organizations how valuable that baseline assessment is. So this is really, this is a companion to the book to give everybody a starting point because it's too important to leave to guesswork. It's too important to leave to blind assumption. And taking a self-assessment is not about judging or criticizing. It's about helping us to take stock. How am I doing? How am I showing up? Because the vast majority of behavior that causes trust to break down is unintentional. We don't realize it. So Dennis and I, our team, we're actually really excited I'm so excited to create this assessment to be a companion with this book, because right now we live in a time and a space in the world where trust is needed more than ever, and it is the most vulnerable than it has ever been. So, you know, the intention here is to help us all have a place to go to strengthen trust in, in, in our relationships.

And it's not just a rinky-dink quiz. I mean, this is a statistically valid and reliable assessment. Okay. And what people actually get, and they're actually very surprised, is they get a very robust 11-page report that fully analyzes where they stand on those 3 dimensions we mentioned, trust of character, trust of communication, and trust of capability, and map out the developmental plan. They, and there's a page on each of coaching tips, and these are very robust coaching tips. They're not just little quiz responses. They are, uh, actionable and behavioral.

Can you tell we're excited about it, Marc?

I love when people are nerding out on what they're passionate about.

Very excited about it.

When is your book coming out?

January 13th.

January 13th, 2026, in case somebody's watching this in February. And so the worksheets— are the worksheets available right now on your website, or do you— are they— do you have to wait until the book is released?

Well, you know what? The assessment travels with the book.

Perfect.

So when people purchase the book, but you know, you've got a really cool listening audience. So as people are listening to this conversation we're having with you and they're so excited about this assessment, oh, they'd really love to get it sooner than later, send them our way and we'd be delighted to provide them with the link.

I love that.

Absolutely.

It'd be our pleasure.

And, and people can also have the link right now. I mean, the link is available. For example, on amazon.com, The Art of Trust Building. I'll move my head here.

I love that. Okay, so when we come back, I'd like to dig a little bit deeper into those 3 dimensions of trust that you mentioned earlier because I think once we get clarity over that, I think solutions become a little bit more self-evident, don't they?

Yeah.

So, we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back. I am speaking with Dr. Dennis Reyna and Dr. Michelle Reyna. And I love the fact that you have this book out. It is definitely something to look into because I think part of the challenge with trust is people have perceptions of trust. And so, I love the fact that you've defined now these 3 dimensions of character, communication, and capability. So, could we dig a little bit deeper into each one of those? You gave a very quick summary. But when some— because I think most people will say, oh no, I have a very strong character. I'm I have strong character. I have a very grounded character. And they self kind of evaluate that. When we talk about character within the confines of trust, what specifically are you looking for?

Well, first of all, there are 6 behaviors that contribute to building trust of character. There's first of all, manage expectations. Do we in fact deliver those expectations? And are they understood on the other side? You know, it's one thing to talk about and to deliver. It's another thing to have the understanding. And are we on the same page with one another? The second behavior is establishing boundaries. How well do we manage those parameters? Okay? Whether it be job descriptions, whether it be role, you know, clarifications, whether it be project, you know, requirements, et cetera, et cetera. How well are those managed? Are there check-ins periodically? Are there, you know, regular meetings, et cetera, et cetera? Then the third behavior is how well do we delegate? Delegating appropriately. Do we give people not only the responsibility, but also the authority and the resources to do the jobs we expect them to do?

And then there's keeping agreements. You know, do we say, do we do what we say we're going to do? You know, we're all human beings, so it's not uncommon that we make a commitment, we formulate an agreement, and life happens. And if we're not able to keep that agreement, do we just let time go by and pretend that nothing ever happened? Or do we step forward and renegotiate that agreement and consistency? Trust of character is what builds alignment and synergy. It is the dimension that really demonstrates that I am reliable, I am dependable, you can count on me, I'm going to come through. It's particularly important. Particularly important in the formation of teams and building alignment around projects and goals, et cetera, et cetera, and essential during change. Trusted communication is the dimension that sets the tone for openness and transparency in the interpersonal space. Is it safe to tell the truth about the status of a project?

Right.

Do I tell— do I speak what I think people want to hear? Or do I really speak what is true for me? Trusted communication. Uh, you know, at times today in the world that we live in, when there's so much uncertainty, people can conjecture.

Sure.

And when things don't go our way, we can get a little gossipy. You know, we can talk about people behind their back. We can make up stories about what's going on. You know, trusted communication is when we really put our concerns on the table. With positive intent and we talk them through. We call that speak with good purpose. And it's a very core behavior in trust of communication. And it, you know, accompanies feedback, how we give and receive feedback to help one another really learn and grow.

And also admit mistakes. You know, it takes some courage to admit mistakes. And is it safe enough to, are we going to get, you know, cut off at the knees or Is it a safe enough culture and environment to say, hey, you know, I blew that one. I'll take, I take responsibility for that, but it won't happen again or whatever. And really own up to and live up to the responsibility of taking that.

To learn from it.

And to learn from it and to grow from it.

Small businesses and entrepreneurialism is all about taking chances, right? Taking risks. Try something new every now and again. An entrepreneur or a team might be going all the way to the mat.

It's interesting that you say that because that's how the startups first get going, right? It's all about risk-taking. It's trying things they've never done before. It's testing, it's trying. But then when the business is established and people are looking at their financials and their cost-benefit analysis, and they're looking at profit and loss, all of a sudden now They seem to fall into kind of status quo thinking where it's like, no, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing because we know we're getting revenue. And they become afraid that they might try something and lose people along the way. Is that fair?

When the status quo takes over, the lowest common denominator becomes the norm. And people are withholding and playing it safe. And as a result, the richness of their skills and capabilities actually are dramatically underutilized and compromised. And that entrepreneur or that owner of that small business, what they're getting is a bunch of people that are just simply going through the motions.

Yeah.

And then they get frustrated years down going, oh, I don't know why nobody's taking initiative. I don't know why nobody's trying anything. I don't know why our competition is jumping and leapfrogging right over us. And we tend to then, you know, I love the whole blame game thing, right? I love that quote about when you blame something, when you're pointing fingers at something, you're pointing one finger this way and 3 fingers at yourself.

Well, that's a common tendency because, you know, when these behaviors are not practiced consistently, Marc, actually trust breaks down.

Sure.

Yes.

You know, so trust can be built and trust can be broken, you know, and the truth of the matter is it is a lot faster and easier to break it than it is to build it.

Yes.

Right.

So, this key facet of, we don't want trust for today. We need trust for today and tomorrow. Entrepreneurs and small businesses, oh my goodness, those relationships are so sacred. And when you think about people working together in a small business, it's family. They're in each other's lives. I mean, that's really very sacred space. And it takes time in those small businesses. People really get to know that business on the inside out. So the entrepreneurs can't afford to lose trust.

Mm-hmm.

But they do need to learn the vulnerability of it so they can protect it and sustain it and help to rebuild it, which really brings us to that 3rd dimension of trust, trusted capability. And that core to that trusted capability is acknowledging people's skills and abilities. And one of the most powerful ways to do that is to use them, to leverage them, to demonstrate confidence in them, to give some chances and help them, help them learn new skills. Now, helping learn new skills is not just the concrete tangible, but just these behaviors that we're talking about. That's skills.

Yes.

Helping people practice these behaviors that build trust, that's skills. And involving them, involving them in decisions. How much intel do people have that they don't really have a chance to bring into the decision-making process are, you know, very key behaviors that build that trust of capability.

And also helping them and allowing them, in fact, even more so empowering them to make decisions. You know, you learn so much. Yes, you learn from your mistakes. You learn, you learn from both the good things, but I think you also learn from the mistakes that were made that didn't quite work out, didn't quite pan out as we had hoped or had planned. And those are learning lessons. And I mean, we know that, uh, over the last 3 and a half decades, we've learned, uh, through our mistakes big time for sure. And I think those are the most powerful.

So you have trust of character, you have trust of communication, trust of capability. Where does capacity fit into the mix? I mean, we can have the capability for trust, but between the various kind of daily crises that we face where I dare say most, I think most trust is eroded when we're in crisis. We also need to have the capacity for trust. No? Where does that fit in?

That's really our relationship with ourselves.

Yes.

You know, our capacity to trust ourselves and our capacity to trust others. Capacity for trust is at the center of it all. And what we mean by that is our readiness and our willingness to trust other people and to trust ourselves. Now, that's a really critical point at this time because there are so many businesses you've, you know, as we've said to one another a number of times during this conversation, that there's a tremendous amount of ambiguity right now. There's a lot of, a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty. Yeah. People are feeling very vulnerable. And during those periods of time, you know, we're living at a time when Trust is at an all-time low. So people tend to contract. And when they're contracting, they're often contracting their trust in themselves. They may be questioning, can I hang in here?

Can I do this?

Can I really do this?

Do I have what it takes?

You know, it's interesting because as you said that, I start kind of popping into kind of the recourse around, you know, around politics and that sort of thing. Where does identity fit into all this? Because, you know, when you think about trust, when you think people are out there trusting certain words, I mean, we have— I mean, the news is full of, oh, this is fake news. Oh, this is AI. Oh, you can't trust this. You can't trust this and you can't trust this. As human beings, how do we start grounding ourselves to start being able to say, okay, it's okay for me to start thinking a little bit critically now? I have to start analyzing what I'm hearing. And I have to then start trusting my capability that I can spot when there's a lot of misinformation and distrust going on around me.

Yes. Yeah, I think we, we bring that into the workplace and our relationships, you know, by asking questions and checking in, testing assumptions, getting curious. That's, that's the trust of communication is what we're really talking about, uh, where people do talk about their issues, their concerns, their fears, their vulnerabilities, their needs. You know, the whole aspect of expectations is essential because underlying expectations, there are needs. Is there a need for information? Is there a need for an open conversation? Is there a need for greater clarity? Is there a need to redefine agreements? Are there assumptions that we're holding that we're formulating by what's going on in the world around us that we need to talk about to get some clarity and discernment about how much of that is really applicable and pertinent in In my relationships, in my world.

In my situation.

Because we can start formulating these perceptions and having these vulnerabilities by what we read and by what we hear. And what leaders want and need to do is create a safe space for people to talk openly about how much of that is real here. in our work with one another? And what choices do we have? And what options do we have? And how do we work through that together? Because, you know, Marc, when we have this much uncertainty, it's human nature to start making up stories. And those stories can grow and grow and grow. And then we must start talking to one another about those stories. They can take on a life of their own. And that's where culture can become really vulnerable. But it's human tendency. It's human nature.

Yeah.

So leaders go out and do something really significant to maintain and strengthen trust when they invite those conversations in with the team and in their one-on-ones and the natural opportunities they have day in and day out. Because that's a real service.

And those conversations are going to happen anyway. But if they can, as leaders, influence those, And create a safe space for those to happen, then the outcome will be a lot better than if they're happening by themselves and the story is getting bigger and bigger, but it's not the truth or it's not applicable to our situation here at hand.

Yeah, this, this is absolutely fascinating for the people tuning in who might realize that they need help into understanding what the trust culture is in their organizations. And need help solving that, how can people reach you if they need help?

They can reach us at our website, www.reynatrustbuilding.com. Uh, there's email address there. We love to hear from people. So that would be the clearest, fastest way. There will be an email address that they can reach out to. And we've got a really dedicated team there. They'll be rapidly responsive and we love and welcome hearing from people.

I love it. I was on your website earlier today and I looked at your team and the brilliance that you surround yourself with, and it's like, oh my goodness, this is pretty serious stuff. So you got the resources to be able to help a lot of people. So kudos to you.

Well, thank you. You know, we can't do it alone. We're entrepreneurs like your, your listening audience, so we know their world quite well. We live it.

Yeah.

And, and this is our life's work. This is not just a job or a function for us. This is our, you know, 3 and a half decades, you know, and going strong. This is what we're dedicated and, and what we are here to serve.

I love that. And, and it, you know what, it's showing in every, it shows in your attitude, it shows in how you communicate it. And then of course it shows how you show up online as well. For anybody tuning in, if you go to their website, they also have some amazing blog posts that you should take in because it's brilliant and it gives you things that, you know, at the very least as leaders, when you consume information, you could take that information and share it with Frontline supervisors and your middle managers to help them build capacity as well. So, once trust has been shattered and you know it's shattered, like you've gone through, you've done the blame game, you bring somebody in to help you isolate what the challenges are and you realize that one of those 3 dimensions is lacking. What steps can leaders take to kind of fix the situation?

Yeah.

Well, first of all, they need to acknowledge what has happened. Okay? They need to acknowledge the impact of what has happened, whether it be in a breach or an erosion. of trust or a breakdown in a relationship. So that's a, that's a first key step.

And sometimes there, there are small, subtle things, you know, there may be something like some very pertinent information that was not disseminated and impacted the delivery of a project. You know, that can have an impact on trust because there's, there's effort that was made. There was work that was done on insufficient information. That has an impact. Sometimes we think about great big huge earth-shattering things that break down trust that Dennis and I call betrayal. But sometimes the inconsistency of practicing the behaviors that build those 3 dimensions causes trust to be vulnerable. And the tendency is to sweep it under the rug.

Yeah.

But the first step is to really acknowledge what happened and the Impact, because that then gives room and space to constructively allow feelings to emerge. Here's the thing about trust. You really can't see it. You really can't. It is invisible, but it is an energy field. We can all feel it. When it is present, it's expansive. I mean, there's a vibe, there's an energy, there's a buzz. There's nothing that's going to stop a team organization. There's a buzz. But when it's missing, holy cow, that energy contracts. And when trust has been made vulnerable, people have a need to talk about it.

Yes.

And one of the things they need to talk about is their feelings. So in the whole aspect of rebuilding trust, there's a healing component that really does ask leaders to observe and acknowledge what happened, the impact that it had, and make room and space for people to talk about their feelings. Is it disappointment? Is it concern? Is it anger? Is it frustration? Is it doubt? And then support people because, you know, we don't want people to hang out there for a good long time. So leaders do need to think about how they can support their people through that process of rebuilding trust and how they can support themselves. One of the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs and leaders make is they don't support themselves. They need support.

Right.

Because from there, the key is just reframing. You know, where we turn those hurts and disappointments into opportunities to learn and grow as individuals. And that's what small businesses need. But they just cannot expect people to get there immediately on their own. The leader's gotta help them reframe, look at the bigger picture, extenuating circumstances, options and choices, and that are at play.

And then from there, it's take responsibility. Okay, given the options, given the possibilities, What do I do now? What's mine to own and take responsibility? But what's not mine to own either? Those 2 sides of the coin are very important to distinguish. And then from there, it's how do I forgive myself of what has happened or what hasn't happened? And—

Give yourself grace.

Exactly. Extending grace, you know, to that. And then let go and move on. And this is not often an easy process, and I know this personally. I mean, this framework actually came from over 40 years ago, long before I met my beautiful bride of 33 years. I went through a very painful divorce and I went through this process and it was about learning how to, you know, first observe and acknowledge what happened, allowing my feelings to surface, Getting the support, whether it be coaching, counseling, men's groups, et cetera, et cetera, talking with trusted colleagues and friends. And then, okay, seeing the options. All right. Reframing the experience. What were the choices I did have? Taking responsibility myself, forgiving, let going, and moving on. And I had circled through those 7 steps probably a gazillion times over a number of years. And, but what we have also found is it works for small businesses. It works for leaders. It works for teams and organizations.

It's shifting that blame game. Excuse me, Dennis. You know, a little bit ago, Marc, you were talking in a very animated way about the blame game.

Yeah.

Well, when there's a blame game, there is abdication of responsibility. And underlying all of it is trust. So it's a breakdown of trust. So there may have been some things that have occurred that were outside of team members' experiences, I mean, outside of their control rather. We don't always have control on decisions that are made around us and decisions that are executed. We don't. But at the end of the day, we all have control over how we respond. We do. And that's the key aspect about the process of healing and renewal. When a leader takes responsibility to support their people, observe and acknowledge what happened, the impact, just full stop, open, honest conversation and giving space for people to talk about what their concerns are, what their worries are. That earns them the privilege to really help their people now turn a corner because nobody wants to live in the pain and the suffering that comes in this, you know, because when we're in a blame game, it doesn't feel good to anybody. It's exhausting to be living in this space of doom and gloom and everything is bad. So when we shift into reframing, we're, we're actually moving into life. We're actually moving into connection.

Change.

Connection with people. It takes a lot of courage to sit back and say, okay, you know, what is mine to own? How long do I want to be on this pity pot? How many people do I want to blame? How does that help me? And when I get in my car and go home at the end of the day and walk in the door, what am I bringing with me? How much fun is it to sit down and have dinner with me that night? And do the people sitting there at the table want me back tomorrow night?

And do I kick the dog, you know, and the cat or what?

Don't kick the dog.

You're not allowed to kick the dog. You know, it's interesting as you're saying that, 2 words kept popping into my head. And that is intentionality and humility. As leaders, we need the humility to not be this grandiose kind of lead from the corner office. We need humility. We need that humility to say, it's okay for me to be vulnerable and to admit fault. We also need the intentionality that even when things are really, really tough, We need to be able to fall back to our core value. Does that make— is that— am I on the right track?

Yeah. I mean, the humility, it takes, you know, this is courageous. It's a very rich dialogue. And the truth of the matter is it takes a lot of courage to live this. Right.

And to be vulnerable.

A leader gains that humility through their own process of self-discovery, compassion. This is, you know, requires quite a bit of introspection and A leader's gotta get out of their head and do the internal work within themselves. And, and that is a very intentional practice. Very, very intentional. And it's through that, Marc, that leaders show up as real people. Because at the end of the day, they're human like all of us. We're all a work in progress.

Go figure.

We're all gonna trip up. I mean, Dennis and I experienced that ourselves. I mean, we write these books. We have to live this work as well.

Yeah, we don't just write the books.

Right, right.

We don't just write the books. You know, we're called— you know, when you write a book about trust, you're held to a higher standard anyway.

Right.

And this is our 5th book on the topic. So we understand.

People remind you, you wrote the book on trust. You better live up to it. We do a fair degree of giving ourselves permission to be human as well. But you know, the thing of it is, is that when leaders do give themselves permission to be human and they express that humility, oh my gosh, they make it safe for everybody else to do so as well. They're more relatable. Yeah. People wanna connect. They wanna get to know them. It's—

And they set the stage.

It's magic. Yeah. It's just magic that can happen.

Well, and the true test, you know, if anybody's ever watched like shows like Undercover Boss, Right now, the whole realization, like both on the top end as well as on the front end of a business. Like there's so many different epiphanies that happen when we actually break down those barriers. When we come back, I'd like to talk a little bit about some cautionaries and pitfalls. My fear is that there are some leaders out there who get a little bit of a snippet of some information and they turn around and they go, you know what? Now I have to work on this. So, next 30 days. And it becomes the policy or the strategy of the month. So, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls. As we try to repair our culture to be more trustworthy. And we'll get to that right after this.

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We are having an amazing discussion today and I hope you're getting lots from it. As evident from our discussion today, you can tell that we are deeply dedicated to supporting business leaders just like you. So, if you're in the midst of something like planning a leadership retreat or an industry conference and you're looking for amazing content, or you're needing some expert guidance, we're just a message away. Feel free to reach out to us for a conversation about your unique challenges or to discuss how we can collaborate maybe to help you achieve your goals. Reach out to us. Our contact information is in the show notes. I get a sense, Michelle and Dennis, that in order to build this trust, we need daily behaviors. What daily behaviors matters most when we're thinking about strengthening our trust over a long period of time?

Well, one of the things is making sure that your expectations are clear. Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Versus vague and not so clear. Do you map out and do you spell out clearly what you need from people, what you expect of people with timelines and check-ins? And I, I think those check-ins are very, very important, those periodic check-ins.

Mm-hmm.

And, and do they have you what they need? Do they, do they have the clarity of what they can expect from you and, and the resources? I love this question that you're asking. It is not a quick fix. Trust building is not to fix somebody.

Right.

It does require embracing this as an approach to life. So we talked a little bit about the break about intentions, getting really clear in the intentions. We really hope people take the self-assessment so they have a really clear starting point. But the expectations, why Dennis has talked about that a few times during our call, It's underlying expectations or needs. And when needs are not met, things go sideways. So we really encourage leaders to get— do their inner work, consider how they want people to experience them, how they want to bring themselves to relationships, get very clear on those intentions. We can't all focus on 3 dimensions and 16 behaviors at one time. Oh my God. goodness gracious. But we can hone in on the one or two that we feel are most essential. And when we do, we raise the bar all the way around.

Right.

Because, you know, it's all about connecting. Every single person has a need to be trusted and to trust others. And what people want in organizations and in life is to be in relationship and connected other people on a human level and to be safe to be human. And when leaders create that, oh my gosh, you know, they open the door for health and vitality to their people in every facet of their lives.

Also, another key point is, do we deliver as promised? Do we deliver on our commitments? Do we deliver? And if we can't, do we renegotiate at the earliest, lowest level? You know, I, I can't make that meeting at, you know, or do we just blow it off?

Yeah. No, no excuses. You know, how reliable and dependable are we? Does our word count? Is extraordinary. And is, is it really safe? Can somebody come and talk to me about anything? If they miss the mark, is it okay that they talk to me about it?

You know, and also helping people learn new skills. I think that's a really key thing, you know. If particularly in this day and age, you know, employees aren't there just for the paycheck, you know, is this something that I can learn from? Is this a job that I can grow and, and gain not only knowledge, but experience and skills that will support me in my growth and development in my career?

Especially today with so much focus and emphasis on AI and people questioning what their relevance will be. Leaders do need to give some focused attention on what kind of skills and knowledge are their life skills, are their interpersonal skills, are their discernment skills. But that trusted capability, because, you know, Marc, you asked a little bit ago about capacity for trust. When leaders are practicing these behaviors and helping their people practice, remember, trust is reciprocal. This is not about a leader doing all the work. This is about a leader engaging. This is a full-on team sport, if you will.

You got to give it to get it.

But when leaders extend, they're building that reciprocity. And the beautiful thing about trusted capability, it's for the long haul, building and leveraging our trusted capability really throughout our life. Because the behaviors that we're talking about at work are applicable to every facet of our life. You know, how we show up in our lifetime relationships with children, with partners, with neighbors, with communities, because everywhere we go, there's people and we all long to have connection with those people.

I like that you mentioned about starting with the internal self first, starting with you self, because I do think that, you know, when we're talking about cautionaries and pitfalls, I do I think that a lot of times, it'll be when it comes down even to respect. I've heard bosses say, my staff don't— they have to respect me. Right? And I think trust falls into that as well. That they'll turn around and they're not working on the internal part of themselves. So, would one of the cautionaries be that we cannot be looking outside at our teams and at our departments saying that they have to become more trustworthy? We have to start with ourselves first?

Yeah, we've gotta be willing to look at ourselves and bring forward the very thing we want in other people. If we're sitting back and waiting for others, we're really abdicating the responsibility because trust actually begins with each and every one of us. Trust begins with me. I want it.

Are there any other cautionaries that you think we should make people aware of before they decide that they need help and that they have to start developing their level of trustworthiness and their internal trust?

I think the cautionary is to not underestimate, you know, to understand that the kind of dynamics that we talked— that we've been talking about are, are just at play. It comes with the, you know, just the facet of being a human being. So we would encourage leaders to not view building trust as a problem they need to fix, but as a, of an environment that they want to create and the intentionality In fostering these high-trust relationships and helping their people to foster high-trust relationships and embracing it as an approach to how they are in relationships and as approach to how they run their business. Because the behaviors that build trust are the very behaviors that produce results. What trust is gonna do is just accelerate. That's what it's gonna do.

Mm-hmm.

It's just, it's gonna, accelerate growth. It's going to accelerate performance. It's going to unleash the potential that people have for doing their best work. So it's not about something that a leader ought to focus on for the next 2 weeks or 3 weeks. It's something they need to embrace and incorporate into how work gets done every day and in all facets of their life. It's embedded in who they are and how they roll.

Trust is a journey. Trust is a journey. And let's face it, business— businesses that are effective, businesses are based upon relationships. And those relationships that are most effective are based on trust.

This has been such an amazing conversation. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

At our website, www.reynahall.com. Trustbuilding.com. Please send us an email. We love hearing from people, and we will be very responsive. And we'd love people to send an email and say, hey, we really want to take that self-assessment. We're on board. We really want to take it. Please let us know, and we'll make sure they get it.

And you can also order the book right now on amazon.com. Absolutely.

And there's no such thing as a shameless plug.

No, no way.

Thank you so much for sharing your passion and your expertise with us today. It's been absolutely brilliant. Thanks for doing this.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my The offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's conveniently marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my honor to be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And of course, if you haven't done so yet, please make sure you subscribe Subscribe to the podcast, please. I'd like to get to 2,000 subscribers. I know it's meager. There's so many people out there with 2 billion. I'm okay with 2,000. Mediocrity at its finest, folks. Thank you again for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception. Bye for now.

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Thank you.

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