The New Leadership Playbook for the (almost) Post-Pandemic World

Let's face it. As leaders, we are being challenged every day with new expectations and new realities. Our almost post-pandemic era is requiring us to challenge what we know about leadership and to develop more human ways to lead. So, that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Service Expert and Master of Experiences Marc Haine. And today, my guest is Leadership Expert Andrew Bryant. We will be delving into some leadership skill sets that you can use today to become a more effective and more human leader. So, I hope you stay with us. You know, between the stories of the Great Resignation and the quiet quitting that is really dominating our airwaves today, subtle more important issues are affecting our businesses. And I hate to say it though, but it's all boiling down to a new set of expectations. So that brings me to our Question of the Day. What are you doing to develop your leadership chops? How are you challenging yourself to meet the new expectations in your workplace? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. So why don't you go ahead and share this episode on your favorite platform and make sure that you hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and add your comments. I'd sure like for you to be part of this conversation. As I mentioned, my guest for this episode is the founder of Self-Leadership International. He is a world-leading expert on self-leadership. Andrew Bryant has just published his 3rd book, The New Leadership Playbook: Being Human While Successfully Delivering Accelerated Results. And we're going to be talking a little bit about that today. Andrew is a sought-after international speaker, having earned his Certified Speaking Professional designation and has spoken on stages all around the world. Andrew, welcome to the show. It is so great to have you here.

It's great to be here, Marc. Thank you for the invitation.

Yeah, maybe you could start off by telling us a little bit about what you do for your clients.

So, in your introduction of me, you say I speak on stages around the world. And yesterday, I was on a stage in Lisbon or on a stage in Lisbon in Portugal. And I asked the audience who were learning and development and HR professionals, what is the cost of lost leadership? And this is exactly what I do for my clients is I help them understand that there is a cost to not developing your leadership. Now, If people are watching your show, they are already interested in learning and developing. Because when I posted on social media this morning some pictures from that event, people were saying, if only people understood what that cost was. Leaders, organizations ignore it. And I responded in the comments, yes, because they don't realize they're part of the problem. So, nobody wants to think, well, actually, I'm costing the organization. I'm even costing my own organization money because of my inability to learn and develop. So, what I do for organizations is help people to close that gap without people feeling too bad about themselves.

Wonderful! At the top of the show, I mentioned the tag words that are coming out now in our vernacular: quiet quitting, the Great Resignation. What's going on in workplaces as we're entering this new era of the almost post-pandemic world?

Well, what's happening is that there is a huge increase in people's level of autonomy because during the pandemic, people had an opportunity to choose their own work schedules, to self-monitor, to self-regulate. And if we're talking about leadership, I think we should always take a step back and say that leadership is a process. And leadership is a function of 3 things: the leader's style, the follower's motivation and skills, And thirdly, the environment. So, what's changed is the environment. And what's also changed is the motivation and skills of the followers who have said, well, hang on a moment. I've had a taste of freedom. I've had a taste of innovation and creativity in my own space. You as the leader need to update your style. And that's what shifted.

And so, what do you think then when it comes down to kind of leaders' capacity? Where are they falling down? What skills are they missing in order to meet this new challenge?

Very simple. Conversation. So, a recent study that I got my hands on showed that only 8% of leaders are engaged in dialogue on the digital platforms that they have internally, whether that's Yammer or Teams, or even publicly like LinkedIn. So, leaders are very good at broadcasting. I mean, that's how they got to the top. They're good at pushing out a message. But what the employees want is they want dialogue. They want to be part of the decision-making process. Instead of the leader saying, okay, well, this is the problem we faced and this is a decision I've made. They want the leader to say, this is the problem we're trying to solve and you're part of that solution. And what ideas do you have? So simply put, conversation or dialogue is the multiplier for leadership in this almost post-pandemic world as you call it.

So, when we're looking at the way that leaders are behaving right now, we're seeing quiet quitting. We're seeing the Great Resignation as kind of a major consequence. Are there more subtle consequences that leaders should be aware of to indicate before the quiet quitting or before the Great Resignation happens? Are there any indicators they should be aware of as far as their team dynamic or as far as their culture is concerned that be indicating that they have an issue?

It's a great question. I tend to think, you know, my first degree was in physiotherapy, a subset of medicine, and that sometimes the first symptom of a heart attack is death. And sometimes, you know, I mean, as brutal as that analogy is, sometimes people don't know, you know, somebody resigned, right? But in The New Leadership Playbook, I talk about 12 specific conversations that leaders need to be having with their people. And one of those conversations is a career conversation. And leaders hate having career conversations because they're terrified that somebody's going to ask for a pay rise. But career conversations aren't necessarily about pay. They're about development. They're about engagement. They are about conversation. And so, if you're having career conversations with your people, then you will get the signs and symptoms. It's like me going and having a regular cholesterol test as a 61-year-old male because I don't want the first symptom to be death. Right.

It's interesting because it does require a semblance of humility by the leader to understand that he doesn't have all the answers. Do you find that that's a challenge for leaders to overcome right now?

It is because for decades, we've created these false expectations that leaders are superheroes, that leaders have all this list of amazing traits. And if you go onto social media, there are all these memes. Leaders are like this. Leaders are like this. The list is so long, it might as well include can turn water into wine and walk on water.

Yeah.

Leaders are human beings. And as I said, leadership is process. People are in process. I think about myself as version 6.1. If I look at version 5.0 or 4.0, I'm almost embarrassed at where I was because it's been constant learning, constant evolution. So, I think if we can overcome these expectations that leaders should be perfect. I coach C-level leaders. I have been for over 20 years. And even the best leaders only make 7 out of 10 good decisions. But because we raise them up and they're supposed to be perfect, Nobody dares tell them, I'm not sure you're making the right decision here. And what I would tell employees is that if you are the passenger in a car, particularly the front seat passenger, and you see the driver's eyes starting to close and then drifting across the central line of the road towards oncoming traffic, you would say something. But we have falsely set leaders up in this expectation that they have to be perfect and nobody can challenge them. Now, the humility that you speak of, and for me, humility comes from the Latin Humilitas. It means grounded. It doesn't mean perfect and it doesn't mean weak. It means grounded. This is what I'm good at. This is what I'm not good at. And good leaders surround themselves with people who will wake them up if they're asleep at the wheel, that challenge them around their weaknesses. And when I set teams up, I always try and pair people as much as possible. And I do some leadership in volunteer organizations. And there's no more test than leadership in a volunteer organization. And If you compare, let's say 2 people are in charge of marketing, 2 people are in charge of finance, then if one's got a blind spot, somebody else can pick it up. And so, complementary skills is very important for leaders to understand. I don't think that's any loss of ego. That's no loss of face. I think that's just smart.

Well, and you hit the nail on the head because if you're going to take your car to get the brakes repaired, Would you go to get to a guy who does tires? Right? It's like, you know, would you, if you needed heart surgery, would you go to somebody who, you know, is a brain surgeon? He might be capable and understand the heart, but wouldn't you prefer to go to a heart surgeon rather than go to a brain surgeon?

And well, this analogy is a little bit too close to home for me because last year I got the health scare. They found a big lump that needed to be removed from my abdomen. And the surgeon said, "Well, we're going to remove a third of your colon and ten centimeters of your small intestine." And I just looked him straight in the eye and said, "Are you any good at this surgery?" Now this was in Singapore, and Singaporeans aren't used to being challenged on their efficacy and their competence. But and he said, "Well, yes, I am. I spent a year studying just this technique, and I get great results." And I said, "Okay, you can do the operation." But had he said, "I'm kind of okay at this," If you were in my position, you'd have got a second opinion, right? So anyway, good news, happy ending to a tough story. I'm here talking to you today and all is well.

And I'm glad you're happy.

I'm happy. Yeah. So, we're good at what we do but not at everything. And the other element of humility that I think gets missed is that humility is also the ability to consider other perspectives as equally valid as your own. And that makes us very humble because we go, well, actually, this is my viewpoint, but I might be wrong. And leaders that can actually say, well, this is what I was thinking, but I'm interested in knowing your perspectives because I might not have the best idea in the room. Just because I'm the highest paid individual in this team or the one with the highest status, I might not have the best idea in this situation. And I think that's true humility when leaders can facilitate the best of others coming out because that's what leadership is, isn't it? It's a process of influencing the realization of group goals in a way that people best can contribute.

I think where the real difference happens now is this mindset that as a leader, you are surrounding yourself with subject matter experts. We hire like even in the simplest of operations, maybe a restaurant, your dishwasher knows a system and a process because he does the work every single day. It behooves the leader to come in and say, I don't like the way you're washing dishes. And the question then becomes, why? Are they coming out dirty? No, no, I just don't like the way you're doing it.

And one of the conversations in the book is the feedback conversation.

Sure.

And I use a very sticky framework, FIF, right? Fact, impact, future. Hey Simon, when you unload the dishwasher, right? Great. Thanks for doing that. I noticed that you don't stack things, all the glasses together, all the plates together, all the knives and forks together. I noticed They're all thrown together on the surface. What do you think the impact of that is? Well, I don't know. Think about it, right? If it's all a mess, what happens? Well, it takes time for other people to sort it out and we can't find what we want quick enough. Great! What do you think you could do in the future? Well, okay, I could line up the plates and the dishes and the knives and the forks. Great! Fantastic! Simple conversation. But you know, so many managers and leaders fail to do that FIF conversation.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. There's so many different components. And before we dive deep, a little bit deeper into your plays, I'd like to talk a little bit about your framework for accelerated results. And I'd like to do that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights! Camera! Action!, business operations operational excellence through the lens of live theater by Marc Haine. Marc uses his business and acting experience to help you see your business like a live show so you can create a performance your customers will never forget. Buy Lights! Camera! Action! today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com.

Welcome back! I am speaking with the author of the new Leadership Playbook, Andrew Bryant. Andrew, why don't you tell us a little bit about this new book? You alluded to it just before the break that it was something that was commissioned. But maybe dig a little bit deeper into what people can expect by picking up your book.

So, what people have said about the book is that most leadership books are written at 35,000 feet and that they're theoretical or principle-based. This is very practical. I looked at 12 conversations that leaders or managers have badly and I knew that they bad from my own experience. And the client said, hey, our managers are struggling to have these conversations. And before the break, I mentioned the feedback conversation. So, I looked at a framework because people like models and people need— you can't just have 12 conversations. They've got to be stuck together. And over nearly 25 years of teaching, facilitating, coaching leadership, I realized that expectations, clear expectations times mindset and motivation times right behaviors equals accelerated results. So, it starts with clear expectations. So, one of the things I've been saying for as long as I can remember whenever working with managers is, go buy yourself a mirror. And they go, what? I go, because if you're not getting results from your people, go look in the mirror and see what you're doing because they are following you. And setting expectations is a failure we all have because it's clear in our head. I know exactly what I want. I know exactly what it should look like, sound like, feel like. But I haven't transferred that to you. And a fun thing I always ask if I've got a group of managers in front of me, I said, have you ever said to people, do you understand? And they all nod, yes, I've asked that question. I said, right. And what do they always say? They always say yes. And I said, do they understand? And they say, no, they don't. And I say, yes, they do. They understand what they understand. They just didn't understand what you wanted them to understand. And whose fault is that? So, the clear expectations comes first. Then comes mindset and motivation. So, if people don't have buy-in, Simon Sinek got famous with his TED Talk on Start with Why. If people don't have the mindset of buy-in, if they don't have the mindset of growth, and they don't have motivation, they don't feel that if they put in the effort, they will improve and they will feel a sense of reward, then that will reduce your results.

And finally, Right behaviors.

And we, before the break, talked about the dishwasher example. What are the specific behaviors you want to see people have?

Yes, this is brilliant. I imagine that people might be watching this going, oh my goodness, this is sounding so special. Could you just let everybody know how to get in touch with you while we're in the middle of our broadcast?

Sure, sure. Well, the easiest place to find me is selfleadership.com. So, I wrote in 2012 the book Self-Leadership: How to Become a More Successful, Efficient, and Effective Leader from inside out. So, self-leadership has been my topic and it has been back since 1999. And you can get in touch with me there. And I'm all over LinkedIn, Andrew Bryant. Just search me up and you will find me there.

Terrific! And we will put all the links in the show notes, including a link to this brand-new book you just wrote. You divided your book into 12 distinct plays. Why did you choose this idea of like a playbook as an analogy?

Well, actually, the beginning of my life, as I said, was as a physiotherapist. And I actually worked with sports teams way back in the 1980s before positive psychology had been coined by Dr. Martin Seligman, before sports psychology had even existed. And so, I was used to the mindset and drilling visualization and then the execution of a play. And in North America with American football, you know, there's a concept of a play. Players learn a specific play. It's numbered and they run that play, which is a set of behaviors. So I called it a playbook because these conversations are in themselves a behavior and they result in behaviors. So getting a leadership book from 35,000 feet down onto the field was what my intention was. It's not easy because you want to write a play that is general enough for people to apply in different industries, whether it's pharmaceutical manufacturing, retail, etc. But I looked for those, the 12 that happen all the time. And that's why the book got written, I guess.

So, we know that especially when there's behavior issues and a lot of what you're talking about is about these 12 different kinds of conversations that they're kind of lead indicators that you have a weakness, that you have a need. How does one filter through to figure out if what they're experiencing is something that's inherent to kind of their lack of knowledge because we don't know what we don't know versus not being skilled in being able to cover it. Like understanding that I have a problem, I know I have a problem, but I don't know how to fix it. But we also have this, I don't know what I don't know kind of condition.

Well, yes. Well, I mean, if people actually accept that there's things they don't know, when we're back to the humility story that we talked about earlier, because there's a thing called the Dunning-Kruger effect, which is a cognitive bias that People are ignorant of their own ignorance, which is terrifying. So, if people accept, look, there's a whole bunch of stuff I don't know, educate me. That is the great attitude. I actually use that leadership framework as a diagnostic, right? Did I set the right expectations? Do they have the right mindset? Are they motivated? And what are the right behaviors? So, if we're not getting results, then I would I would run through that leadership framework as a diagnostic. Sometimes, if we're looking at individuals within the organization, I was talking to one of my clients, Patricia, and she was saying, look, we promoted this guy and he was doing really well in his previous role. We promoted him and it's not working out. What do I do? And I said, well, in my book, sorry, because she had a copy. I said, go to the chapter on talent and strengths. And there is a framework in there, Ryan, COW, which beautifully spells cow. So, it's easy to remember. Capacity, opportunity, and willingness. When we're diagnosing an individual employee, do they have the capacity to do the role? Are they in the right opportunity? And do they have the willingness? So, in this, the willingness is the mindset and motivation. So, it links back to that framework and diagnostic. Do they have the capacity? And is this the right job? I mean, some people could be really amazing if you move them into a different role. Some people just get promoted into the wrong position or they just get hired into the wrong position. So, I took her through this and I said, is it an issue of willingness? No, he's trying really hard. Is this the wrong opportunity? Possibly. Does he have the capacity? And she said, I'm beginning to seriously doubt He has the capacity. And I said, well, now you know what to do.

Yeah. And it becomes— and so to your point, this becomes a diagnostic for people to be able to run through. I'd like to get into some more examples of some of the plays. I know you have 12 of them and you could probably— we could probably do an episode for each one. However, we have limited time, but maybe some— just some highlights of other plays you think are really important, and we'll get to that right after this.

When you're delivering an important speech to a huge audience, it's easy to lose your place or go way over time. Give yourself an advantage with the Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app. No more checking your watch or calling for time. The Pro Speaker Presentation Speech Timer app keeps you on track with easy-to-see timers, even changing color for visual prompts during your speech. And you can set audio cues to practice or set it to vibrate so you don't even have to look. Look, be the pro you know you are. Download the app at speakerpresentationtimer.com.

You've mentioned now as a tease some of these plays that you have. Each one is surrounded by its own framework. What would you say are kind of the heavy hitters out of those 12 plays that you think a leader today needs to be aware of in order to move their business forward?

The most heavy-hitting is number 12, which is coaching. And it's the most heavy-hitting because it needs the other 11 plays for you to be able to execute it.

Ah.

So, I've been a coach since the 1980s. And I know that it's now much more— well, it's hugely popular now. It was unheard of when I first started doing it outside of sport. So, it's the most heavy-hitting. And so, it's the hardest to explain. We would take a whole episode to even scratch the surface on that. So instead, let me answer with the things that my clients come back and say, hey, this made the most difference in the shortest amount of time. And I think that might be useful. So, I talked about the feedback, the FIF— Fact, Impact, Future. But what happens if you've given feedback And there's no behavior change. Jim Collins said, get the right people on the bus, get the wrong people off the bus. How do you have that conversation? And people are terrified of having that conversation because they think it's the final conversation. We talked about what's the symptom before the end. So, the crucial conversation is one— now, there's a whole book on crucial conversations and you could go off and read that. In my book, I've given a very simple idea. Put the fish on the table. Now, I learned this early in my career. If the fish is under the table, it'll rot and stink. If you put the fish on the table, we can cook it and we can eat it together. And the ability to say, hey, look, this is something that's bothering me. All right? I don't know with you. I don't know if it's me. But I have an emotional response to this. Can we talk about it? Now, there's a huge cultural framework. I've worked in Asia for 18 years. I mean, back in Europe now, I fly in and out of the United States all the time. Some people are much more direct. I mean, if this was Germany or Holland, they don't even need this play because they would just tell it to you, right? In other places in the world, you have to kind of give them muck feedback. You kind of have to give people the sweetness first and then get to the meat or inside the But the reality is say, look, I need to have a fish on the table conversation. And in the organizations I've taught this to, it becomes part of the culture. So, it's a bit like radical candor, but it's a little less brutal. Some people have mis-executed radical candor because radical candor requires a high level of support before you challenge the individual.

Right.

But with the fish on the table, I could say, hey, Marc, This has happened, right? We need to talk about it, right? And for you and I, it's our tech issues. You and I have to have a fish-on-the-table conversation about our tech issues. Now, you're going to giggle about this. The audience won't know. But you and I struggled to actually get to talk to each other today because there were tech issues, right? And we could have a conversation about those.

And because of that, you're able to then say, we'll put all the cards on the table. And it becomes a safe space to be able to have those conversations, even if it might end up badly. where you might be discussing how you separate ways.

Yep, absolutely. Look, there are some really good stories about people who have fired somebody and then that person turned up 6 months later in the office. And you're like, oh my God, they've come to say that they're taking us to court or whatever. And there's one particular story I remember, the lady's in the— the guy can see through his office that this lady he fired 6 months ago is there. And she's asked to see him. His secretary says, Christine wants to see you. Christine comes in and she said, I just came because I wanted to thank you for firing me 6 months ago. I was in a bad space. I was in the wrong role. You did me the biggest favor. It was the biggest wake-up call. I'm now doing what I really love and I want to thank you. On the flip side, the number of executives I've coached that have let somebody go And pretty much, they always say, I wish I'd done it 6 months ago. And the reason is they couldn't have a fish-on-the-table conversation at the right time.

Right, right. And personally, I equate it to what we do with our customers, right? We always have to have aftercare with our customers. And I know this is going to sound really strange to people when they say we're separating ways with our employees. But I have to ask, what does your aftercare look like? Because you've been in a relationship with your employees. I think it behooves us to do it in such a way where we're degrading people, where we're shoving people out the door with security guards and all this. I mean, there's time and place for that when it has to happen. However, the majority of what we do is, to your point, it's about how can we still be that service component to that employee to help them make the transition and move on to something else that they would be better suited to. And it's all about that service.

Look, it absolutely is. And I think people have a very short-term view of who are your brand ambassadors, particularly in the day of, you know, you have Glassdoor. You can dial up Glassdoor and see what people think about the CEO of an organization and the organization. And when I'm engaged to work with a company, I Glassdoor them because I want to What are people saying?

Yep.

What are people saying? And what is your ex saying about you? So, if you go back to the days when that happened, if your exes are saying, he was a horrible person, then it might curtail you actually finding the right person in your life. So, make sure people are happy on the way out.

Yeah.

It takes just a smidgen of extra.

Well, and to your point, Andrew, in your book, you talked about this human component, right? I mean, it's in the title. And so, this idea now that we have gone from the industrial age where we were hiring people for their hands and then the knowledge worker age where we had their hands and their brains. We're now in the relational environment now where it's going to be the hands, the brains, and the heart. And how do we support that? And I know some people will watch this and go, this is just a lot of woo-woo-woo-woo.

Yeah.

But there's something when I skimmed through your book, I actually bought your book yesterday and I skimmed through it. And a lot of what you talk about is this thing about having these conversations that are human-focused.

They are. So, I talked about being human whilst delivering accelerated results. And let's be fair. If you're a manager or leader and you are not delivering results, your tenure is limited. If, however, you burn your people out, you won't be able to deliver results and your tenure will be limited. Now, you can't get less woo-woo than the US Navy SEALs. And they have a maxim, which I included in the book, which is, slow is smooth. Smooth is fast. And I think that really gets it in terms of the relationship. It may feel like it takes a little bit longer to build the relationship, to have the conversation, to get the buy-in. But once you do, the execution is very fast. We're back to that, if I had 6 hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend 5 sharpening the axe, right? So really, it is. And look, as I said, I'm version 6.1 being 61 years old. And I look back at the mistakes I've made and they were all human ones. They were all shortcutting, pushing my agenda without checking. So, we need to all remember what Maya Angelou said, seek first to understand and— no, I'm sorry, that was Covey. Seek first to understand and then be understood.

Yes.

And then Maya Angelou, which is, of course, people don't care how much you know, they know how much you care. So, with those 2 quotes, I think it's now part of my DNA. I validate people. I find out what they need. And then my agenda comes out. But that's just assertive communication. And that's in the book too, of course, which is, can you articulate your needs, wants, and beliefs in such a way that it encourages the other person to express their needs, wants, and beliefs or vice versa? Encourage other people to share their needs, wants, beliefs. And then you have the reciprocity to say, that's fantastic. And here's what I need, want, and believe.

Imagine the clarity that that creates.

I know. I mean, look, and as you said, people watching this are going to go, well, that's either deep or that's really simple. Sometimes expressing the obvious in simple ways takes a level of insight. And one of the biggest compliments that I got from the book was a very senior leader said to me, Andrew, I like the book. The book's not too big. And I said, I was wondering whether this was kind of a sarcastic backhanded comment. He said, because I appreciate that to make it short took a lot of depth of knowledge and understanding. And I went, oh, I feel really good about that. That was a great compliment.

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I looked at it and I thought, this is a book that somebody could buy with their team. And I think people could sit down with their leadership team and do this as a monthly or biweekly book reporting thing where you cover a chapter, you sit, you discuss it, What a way to shift your culture to be more open and more transparent than to share something like your book, sit through it, workshop it through because you also have a lot of components, a lot of questions in there as well. And then, being able to sit around a boardroom table and create clarity among the team, I think would be magical for a team.

Well, I'm not going to disagree with you there. I think it's a great suggestion. And again, I wrote the book and I said, You should read it through once and then have it on your shelf, have it in your desk drawer because you're going to have one of those conversations on a regular basis. And you might want to go, oh, I'm about to have a feedback conversation. I'm about to have a career conversation. I'm about to have a talent conversation. Hang on. Let me just—

there was a line in there.

I need to remember it and go back to that. I also recorded 8-minute videos of each of the plays. It ended up being 16 8-minute videos. I put that my LMS and a few of my clients have licensed that material to put on their own learning management system so that you can read the book or you can just hang on a moment. I'll play the video on my phone for 8 minutes and then I'm ready to go.

Wonderful. Andrew, are there any cautionaries as somebody's watching this and saying, yeah, you know what? You're right. I have to make a change. Are there any cautionaries people should be aware of as they kind of delve into becoming this more human, human leader as they try to push forward what they need to do in their businesses?

Yeah, that's a good question. And I'd like to give a moment to think about that. My immediate answer would be to avoid guardrailing, which again is an American expression, isn't it? You go too far to the left and then you bounce off the guardrail and go too far to the right. You are who you are. And it's an evolution as we've already discussed. And I I think adjust at a rate and speed that people can follow you. Otherwise, they— I mean, we've had experiences of people coming out of a management seminar and going, I'm going to do it all. I'm going to coach everybody. And somebody comes into their office and said, hey boss, I got this problem. That's fantastic. How do you think you're going to solve it? And they go, I don't know, boss. I came to you because this is your— no, but what do you think? And it's just too much of a guardrail. They've gone from do this, do that to I'm not going to give you any answer. And I think that would be a mistake to guardrail it that much. So, evolve, add to your skills. I mean, as a coach, my job is often to bring out— well, it's always to bring out the best of an individual rather than to shove new information in.

Right.

And way back when I learned coaching back in the 1980s, there was a very famous coach. Well, he wasn't famous then. He became famous, Sir John Whitmore. And Sir John ran this experiment. And it's a very old video and it's quite hard to find these days. But he did this experiment. He took a golf coach and a group of people who'd never played golf and a coach who'd never played golf, which was him, I think, at that time. And so, the golf pro had an hour to teach golf and the coach had an hour to teach golf and he didn't know how to play golf. Now, obviously, the golf pro said, you hold the stick this way, you bend your knee this way, and it's a whole pile of information goes in. And anybody who's played golf knows how this The coach said, what's the objective here? To hit the ball straight and far, right? So, you got a club, you got a ball, take a swing, see what happens. So, they take a swing, it goes off to the left, goes off the right. So, okay, what do you think happened? Well, I think it went off to the left. So, what do you think you need to do? Well, let me try this. Did that make it better or worse? It made it better. Okay. So, let's do more of that and less of this. Now, at the end of the hour, The 2 groups get together and they shoot golf balls. And you know what happened? The coach who didn't know how to play golf got better results than the golf pro. So, asking the question, engaging people's natural intelligence, that is what's going to make you a great leader.

Well, and to your point, the golf pro is teaching all the mechanics behind it so you don't Whereas the other coach said, let's fail and see what happens. And what did we learn from it? And so, that's a completely different mindset. And I think as leaders, I think that's a great metaphor for how a lot of times how we do lead. The difference between micromanaging versus coaching and becoming that guiding influence rather than the one who's going to tell people where to go and how to get there.

Yeah. So, one of the guys I coached was a guy called Darryl Medzger. And Darryl was at the time I coached him, CEO of Sentosa Leisure Group, which looked after Sentosa Island in Singapore. Darryl was ex-Disney. He'd been the leader of— sorry, he'd been the CEO of the Hong Kong Yacht Club. So, he'd moved around various high-end resorts. And he was a great guy to coach. I think I learned more from him than he learned from me. And I remember being on stage with him at this conference and he said to his people, he I want you to fail. Just don't make your mistakes more expensive than mine. Let me tell you about the story that I cost the Hong Kong Yacht Club $1 million. And he told this story, was very humble, and he'd made a mistake. So, he said, look, you're going to make mistakes. That's okay. Just don't— I'm the CEO, so you can't make bigger mistakes than me. Now, and it was fantastic because it was a service-based— it was Sentosa Leisure Group. They had Resorts World moved in there. So, they had a theme park. They had high-end real estate and beaches for people So, all sorts of different things. The day that Darryl left as CEO to go on to his next venture, I was in their offices. He was packing his own cardboard box of stuff to leave his office. There were people in the corridors weeping that he was leaving. And that is a mark and measure of a leader when people cry when you go with sadness, not with joy.

Right, right. Yeah. And I mean, we all have those experiences. where somebody has had such an influence on us that when they do leave, it's a sad time. Because again, this is an organizational issue. How do you then manage that kind of a transition when somebody like that leaves your organization? I have a sneaking suspicion, Andrew, that you and I could sit for hours talking about all this stuff. It is just so brilliant. And it's so brilliant that I came across you. And Managed to get your book and managed to get you on this show. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Well, as I said, I was on stage yesterday in Lisbon talking to learning and development and HR directors. And I always like to leave with a challenge and an inspiration because they're the ones that have to facilitate learning and development in organizations. And I started with, what is the cost of lack of leadership in terms of hiring, retaining, developing, etc., etc. But I said, look, it's kind of like what the world needs now is confident but humble leaders. You and I have talked about that. But what the world needs now is an end to this ignorant certainty and an openness to the ambiguity and the humanity that you and I have been talking about. And that's what I want to leave you with because I think that's really motivating me. It's becoming a passion for me these days is to say, yeah, I know you want to deliver results and I'm happy to help you do that. But let's do it in a way that's not ignorantly certain. Let's be open to the ambiguity that we don't know everything and that other people within our organization might have the intelligence. And so, we build diverse and inclusive organizations where nobody has a monopoly on the good idea, that we find the best idea and execute And how much more innovation will people create because they take on that mindset?

This has been absolutely fantastic. Andrew, could you just remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

The easiest place to find me is selfleadership.com or find me on LinkedIn, Andrew Bryant.

Wonderful! And make sure you check out Andrew's book. It is on Amazon. It's on Kindle and on paperback. Andrew, thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here and sharing your knowledge, your passion, Your passion, your expertise. There it is. Like I said, I bought it last night on Kindle because I was so intrigued by the notes that Andrew had sent me that I wanted to uncover a little bit more. And I can't wait to sit down and really get down and dirty with it. So, thank you again, Andrew, for your time today. It's been absolutely brilliant. If you have any questions about today's episodes or would like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you and your Please feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. As always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead and subscribe to this feed and of course, follow me on social media. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope I hope you dare to be the exception.