Unlocking LGBTQ+ Wisdom: The Key to Better Leadership with Joel Davis Brown

Businesses everywhere are bleeding money, losing customers, and burning out their teams. And the worst part? Most leaders don't even realize the root of the problem. It's not your bottom line, your strategy, or even your talent pool. It's something far, far deeper. And that's what we're talking about today on Experience Leadership.

Welcome to Experience Leadership. A podcast that challenges small business owners and entrepreneurs just like you to dare to be the exception. Join our host, customer experience expert Marc Haine, as he uncovers relevant and timely content to help you script and direct your business and teams to create jaw-dropping experiences your customers and staff deserve. Here is the host of Experience Leadership, author of Lights! Camera!

Action!, customer experience Welcome to this episode! I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I'm so grateful that you are tuning in today. My guest for this episode is the awareness change agent, Joel Davis-Brown. And today, we are putting a spotlight on how transformational leadership inspired by the wisdom and resilience of the LGBTQ+ community can revolutionize the way we lead, connect, and create thriving workplaces. Now, wait a second. If you're thinking, this doesn't apply to me. I've got my leadership style all figured out. Then I need you to hang tight with us because guess what? That's exactly what everyone says right before the wheels fall off the bus. My one ask is that if you're tuning in today and if you know somebody who could use this information, Please make sure you share a link to this episode. You know, leadership is one of the most talked about topics in business. But here's the dirty little secret. Most leaders are still getting it wrong. And it's costing them more than they know. They're losing top talent, alienating customers, and missing out on opportunities to create thriving connected communities within their teams. It's not just about working harder, adding more strategies, or signing up for yet another leadership workshop. The real issue is lurking beneath the surface. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, what have you done recently to analyze and dissect your leadership style? Have you had a moment recently where you asked yourself, Why did I respond that way? I'd love for you to share your thoughts. Again, best way to do that is you can add comments to this podcast or you can actually share a link to this podcast on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and be part of this conversation. As I mentioned, today's guest is someone who is redefining what it means to lead in a way that's not just transformational but deeply, deeply Joel Davis-Brown, known as the Awareness Agent, is a leadership expert, author, and cultural visionary who has spent his career helping leaders bridge the gap between strategy and soul. Joel's unique perspective is rooted in his lived experience as a member of the LGBTQ+ community where resilience, adaptability, and cultural awareness aren't just qualities. They're actually survival skills. And he's here to share today Lessons that translate into powerful leadership insights that any business can apply to thrive in today's really complex world. Joel, thank you so much for being here. I am really tickled you could make time.

Appreciate it. It's a pleasure to be here.

Yeah. So before we get too deep into today's topic, could you tell us a little bit about who your clients are? How do you serve them?

Our clients really run the gamut. So, they're any organization or system that is human-centered and wants to do better by its people. So, that's included Fortune 500 companies, Fortune 1000 companies, NGOs, nonprofits, civic organizations. We've worked on 6 continents, and so we've worked with anyone. The only thing that we require is that people are earnest and sincere about wanting to improve their culture for not only their employees, but also for the people that they serve in the larger community.

Yeah, all too often, leadership is seen as like a business function. What are your thoughts about how we're defining leadership these days?

I think the way that we're defining leadership is too restrictive. I think we need to look at leadership as a global orientation, as a personal calling, if you will. So what I say to people is leadership is not just something you do from your 9 to 5. It's not just something you do once you enter into the workplace, and then it's something that you let go of once you leave and head home. It's something that you do when you look in the mirror. It's something that is exhibited when you are interacting with your family, your friends. It's something that shows up in your community. And it's also something that is on display as a global citizen. So we have to look at leadership as having larger implications. And, you know, as my grandfather said, how you do anything is how you do everything. And so there's always a way for us to think about how we can perfect our technique, our craft, our essence, our being, and our presence in order to create greater value and, more importantly, impact for those around us.

Right, right. I love that you use the word impact because at the end of the day, as I grew up from a leader from my early days in McDonald's doing, you know, and being in hospitality for years and years and years, one of the kind of driving forces was this idea of, as leaders, I believe we're put on this planet to create a legacy.

Yes. So I would say we're always leading. The question is, what type of legacy are we creating? So are we creating a negative legacy where people feel unsafe, where people are harmed, where people feel disconnected, where people are not living up to their full potential, or are we creating an environment where people could be transformed for the better? So there's all sorts of leaders out there. What I say to people all the time is I'm only interested in working with and supporting leadership that is transformational in a positive sense. I think we're seeing in today's social and political climate, we're seeing forms of leadership that I think are dangerous, that are risky, that are harmful. And then this predates 2025. This has been, I think, a phenomenon that's been going on for quite some time. But I think people are hungry for a type of leadership that invigorates them, that incentivizes them, that inspires them, that helps them to live up to the better angels of their nature. That's what we want to see. So, the question for everybody is, do you want to be the positive type of leader, or are you content in being a leader that hurts, harms, and probably devalues the environment that surrounds you? So, that's the question that everybody should be asking themselves.

Yeah. And, you know, that question in itself just hints at how intentional we need to be with it because Growing up as the last of the baby boomers, I mean, I grew up in a very much carrot and sticking kind of world where leadership was all about output, output, output, and driving performance.

Right.

And it just seems to me now that we are more centered on not only trying to get the hands from everybody, but now we want their minds as well as their hearts. But there seems to be a huge gap between traditional leadership and how maybe leadership should be practiced. Is that what you're seeing?

Yeah, I would say leadership is something that it's an internal orientation. So before you can generate output, before you can increase productivity, you have to think about how are you showing up, which is why leadership is such an important and a difficult thing to master. It's an increasingly important thing because it has to come from your own internal awareness and your own internal compass as to who are you, what do you believe in, what are your values, what's your your focus and what's driving. And those leaders that have some alignment with their internal values, who've exhibited some self-mastery, you can see it just by their presence, their being, how they interact with people, how they show up, how they talk. Those that are disconnected, those that are simply looking to generate output or to force, you know, increase a profit margin or looking to make sure that you get this amount of output from people, there's a different energy that they lead with. And There's a critical difference. So, when you are looking to become a better leader, the first place you have to look at is yourself. You have to take the position of looking internally and saying, how can I be better? Who am I, first of all? And to the question that you posed, why do I do the things that I do? Why do I believe the things that I do? How am I showing up? And what's the impact that I'm creating for people? And does the impact that I'm creating for people match the intent that I have for myself? a particular system on a given day, I may have this intent, but is that showing up in my actions? And if there's any discrepancy or dissonance between how I show up and my intent, then that's where the work begins. Because you may say, well, I want to motivate people. I want people to feel better. I want people to feel more connected and synergistic. But if you're seeing something different, that's where the internal work comes in. And that's not about anybody else. That's really about you. And what I've always said to leaders is, to the extent that you grow, your culture, your company, your community will grow. Your family will grow. To the extent that you don't grow, then your company, the community, the family, your relationships will also not grow. And for a number of leaders, that's a very daunting question and task to begin. But I say, for those who are the transformational leaders that we want, that's a question that they're willing to entertain and they're willing to process and engage over and over again.

Now, you've mentioned the phrase transformational leadership a couple of times. What does that actually mean?

Transformational means that you have come into an environment and you've left it better than when you first entered. It's a situation where the people around you are operating at a higher level, you've had positive impact, and you yourself have been transformed in the process. And so, you're not separate from the environment, but you, to your— the point that you made earlier, you've left a legacy whereby you can see Value add. You can see greater impact. You can see that the ecosystem is better. It's improved in a tangible way than it was before you came into it. That's what transformational leadership means to me.

So, I mean, everything you're talking about makes absolute sense. Like, I get goosebumps when you talk about it, actually. But when I'm out in the field actually talking to business operators and entrepreneurs and business managers, I see a lot of finger-pointing. I see a lot of people blaming the generations. They're blaming the economy. They're blaming how lazy employees are. Like, there's so much blame going around. Is how do we peel back this skin of blame and actually uncover how effective or how not effective we are as leaders? Because again, to me, it just smacks of They need to wake up and have some semblance of humility somehow.

Well, I think you have to take self-inventory and you have to say, where and how can I be better? And I think in our culture of busyness, we're always trying to do so much. We're trying to take care of meetings and we have texts and emails and all sorts of things that are grabbing our attention. I think it requires us at some point to be still, to be reflective and say, again, what am I doing that perhaps is successful, that's having the type of results that I want? And what am I doing that perhaps is not having the type of results that I want? How am I showing up? Because you can— 2 different leaders can achieve certain results, but they can go about them in 2 different ways, or they can have 2 different approaches. And so part of what I would ask people to do is to sit and ask yourself, how do you feel as a leader? How do you feel when you're operating in different contexts? What are you noticing about yourself? What do you see just from your own personal vantage point? Then the second piece I would ask them to think about is do an inventory. Check in with your teams, check in with your cross-functional partners, talk to people in your neighborhood, Talk to people in your family. So, you know, I'm a professor as well. So, one of the things I always like to do is when I teach a course on leadership is I'll ask my students, let's do kind of a self-assessment, but also, also let's get some data. I'm a scientist, so I like to make sure that people get data. And they'll say, well, where's the data coming from? The people who know you, the people who work with you, the people who interface with you on a regular basis, ask them how they judge or evaluate or assess your leadership style and ask them to be candid and ask and do this with people who you can trust. And know are going to give you an honest answer. So that means sometimes talking to your siblings, your parents, your spouse, close friends, but also talking to trusted members of your workforce, of your team, and asking them to speak candidly and forthrightly about how you show up. And you'll get some pretty telling answers. And so it's something that I like to do for myself also. So for example, I might ask my husband, how have I showed up? You know, what am I doing well and what could I be doing differently? Something I might ask, for example, my mom or my siblings, but then I might also expand that to my friends. I've also expanded that to my team. And then I also, of course, ask those questions of my clients. What are we doing that's done— that's gone well? What could we have done better? There might be a premortem and a postmortem. And use that data to inform what you do next. That's what's going to be really important. And then if you're honest enough with yourself and you do that self-assessment and you have that time to reflect, you might also say, you know, if I look back at the situation that happened, let's say within the past 30 days, I could have handled that differently. Or I know that as I was going through and doing certain things, I felt this inner pinch. I felt this tension, this turmoil, which is usually— I call it your emotional guidance system, your EGS. It usually tells you when you are aligned with your core values or when there's been a departure or detour from your core values. You know it. So, you know, for example, when you've shown up and you've treated someone well, you know when you've aligned with your core values. You know that when you've left, you've lived up to your leadership credo. Those are the indicators. Now, the question then is, do you have the courage once you have the data And a lot of people know when they're having negative impact. Not always, but a lot of times people know when they're having negative impact or they're not having the impact that they desire. But then the question is, do you have the courage to do something about it? Do you have the courage to say, I'm the constant variable here. I need to change something if I want to have a different impact in the environment. That's where the next stage or the next phase of the work must begin.

So much to unpack in that. You know, as you were talking, I was thinking about this idea of people's beliefs and biases, the role that they play in how we perceive ourselves and perceive what we're capable of doing and how we interact with the environment. How do we reexamine things that are so ingrained like beliefs and biases within our leadership style and within the core of who we are?

Well, I think it requires some intentionality and it requires some focus. There's a difference between self-knowledge And self-awareness. So what do I mean by this? So self-knowledge is what you know about yourself. So for example, I know that I don't like cold weather. I don't like being in environments where they're too crowded and noisy. I know that if there's some music on, I like it to be something that's more soulful. Those are things I know about myself. Self-awareness is about the impact that I create for others. And at various points and at various times, I have to ask myself, why do I believe the things that I do? What is it that's going on? And here's a story that I've shared before, and I would love to share with you. It's a very brief one. So I remember I was doing some work in San Francisco, and I was talking with— I was working with the transit agency. And there was a gentleman there who I asked him— he was a leader, he was in management, but he had previously worked as a train operator. And I said, well, what's your impact on those around you? And he said, I'm a good guy. I'm pretty relaxed. I'm pretty chipper. People love working with me. And I could see this or hear this rumble throughout the room as people disagreed with his assessment. Now, little did he know, I had had some personal interaction with him because one day, let's say months prior to that workshop, I was on a corner in San Francisco looking to get home, and I noticed that on the J line, there was an F train coming. So when the train got to me, I was a little confused because I wanted to make sure I can get home, and usually it's only the J train on that line. So I, as he opened the door, I said to him, Is this supposed to be the J train? And he looked at me without smiling, without exchanging any pleasantries, and he said, look at the sign. And I said, well, sir, I appreciate that, but the sign says this is an F train, but I know the F train usually is downtown and heads out to Fisherman's Wharf. We're in a different part of the city. And he said, what does the sign say? And I said, hmm, okay. I said, could you please just help me out? And he refused to answer the question. So I got on and took my chances, and fortunately, I got to where I needed to go. But I replayed that story for him and I said, so do you recognize me? Because of course, I was dressed a little differently. I had on a tie and a dress shirt. And he said, oh my God. And he probably said some other things I can't repeat here. And I said to him, based on that experience, would you say that your impact was positive or negative? And I said, here's the thing. If one person says that you, let's say, haven't had the impact that you want, You know, there might be some idiosyncratic situation. Maybe you had a bad day. Maybe they misread the cues. Maybe they don't know you very well. So we might be able to disregard that. If 2 or 3 people give you that information, again, maybe there's some cultural bias. Maybe there's some other things that are operating. But when you have a number of people, namely his colleagues, but also patrons, customers, clients, people of the community of which I represented, giving you this information, then that's an indication that something is awry, something is amiss. You probably want to change your leadership style, and that's the opportunity to do so. I think when we think about these things, when we think about, well, why do I do the things that I do? What we have to think about is what are the narratives that are in our minds? So, one of the exercises that I like to ask people to think about when they— I ask them about life circumstances, I ask them about their leadership practice, I'll say, what are your facts? What are your feelings? And what are your beliefs? And I'll ask them to sit there and share that with another person. So, I'll give them a prompt and say, tell me about the state of your leadership practice. Tell me how you've handled conflict. Tell me how you inspire people. Tell me about a time when you had to overcome a particular challenge or, you know, do some team building or further team cohesion. How did that go? And so, what is helpful in that exercise is that as they listen to or they share their story, the other person will help to decode what is fact, what is the feeling, and what is the belief. And the belief helps them to understand what's their cosmology, what's their worldview, What's their operating premise or narrative, which may or may not be true, but it helps to determine the story that is in their mind about how the world operates, how people operate, and how they show up. But then also their feelings, which also gives an indication as to what their emotional state is and perhaps some underlying issues or thoughts or attitudes that need to be addressed that have not been addressed. And then there's the fact. Now, we don't need to quibble over particular facts, but what we really want people to understand from a metacognitive standpoint is why do you believe what you do? What are some of the operating narratives that are in your mind that perhaps need to be debunked, need to be reevaluated, need to be reassessed to help you to come to a different conclusion? Because it's often those scripts and that programming that a lot of leaders have not fully examined to understand, well, this is why I think this way. And one of the things I will say to leaders all the time is your view of humanity determines how you lead. If you believe that humans are designed for good, Then you're going to lead in a way that's very empowering. However, if you think that humans are lazy, if you think that they are insolent, if you think that they need to be controlled or manipulated in some way, that's going to dictate a very different type of leadership style. And we need to examine that. And where does that come from? That might have come from some formative experience when you first started working, let's say, in quote-unquote corporate circles. That might be based on what you saw growing up. It might be based on your family of origin, your culture of origin. But it's important to acknowledge those, to be present with those, and then in certain situations to deactivate some of those biases and some of those beliefs in order to be present with the people who are actually in front of you in the situation that requires you to show up in a different way. So it's something that can happen through coaching. It's something that can happen sometimes, and this is what I want people to avoid, it happens through what we call a triggering event.

Mm-hmm.

What's a triggering event? When basically someone steps in it, they do something that is dangerous and harmful, or basically they kind of get this gut punch to say, Ooh, I really did something bad here. Either there's some type of HR action, there's some type of legal action, someone has given you some very direct and powerful and perhaps negative feedback that makes you kind of re-question yourself and your approach and your place in the world. And we want to do that because we don't want to be reactive when it comes to this type of stuff, because while it is important to recognize the learning opportunity in those triggering events, what also happens most times is that someone has been harmed. And so my goal for leaders is to make sure that not only are they not creating harm for themselves, but they aren't creating harm for other people. And if leaders took more time to heal and to address some of their own stuff, then I think we would see workplaces and communities and more importantly, a world that works better for everybody here.

Yeah. And, you know, as you're talking about this as well, I just see that the world needs to change. Leaders need to change. There's still, like when you see the Gallup polls where, you know, they say that only 15% of the workforce is actually highly engaged. And then like something like 70-something is disengaged. And it's like we're doing something wrong. And, you know, there, there are threads all over social media about toxic workplaces and how leaders, uh, communicate with and, and talk with their staff. And so we know that this is almost an epidemic in itself. And so when we come back, I'd like to dig a little bit deeper into some more things, more tools maybe that people could use to shake up their workplaces and their perceptions and their leadership styles. And we'll get to that right after this. When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star with a new book, Lights!

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today at your favorite online retailer or directly at marchaine.com. Welcome back. I'm speaking with the fabulous Dr. Joel Davis-Brown. I hope you're getting tons and tons of value because, I mean, a lot of this stuff is just goosebump moments for me. Joel, you yourself have a fabulous book out. Why don't you tell us a little bit about it?

You're very kind and very sweet. So this is my book. This is my, my baby, if you will. So it's called The Souls of Queer Folk. there in the camera frame. So this book was born from my own curiosity of examining, looking at the LGBTQ community, and frankly, just being tired of having people discuss the LGBTQ community who didn't understand, who were not a part of, and had spent no time really honoring, learning, or being with the LGBTQ community. What I ended up discovering through my research is not only is the culture of the LGBTQ community rich and layered and multifaceted. LGBTQ people, by virtue of their cultural journey, have wisdom and brilliance that I think could benefit larger society in terms of leadership. Because again, leadership is not just a business orientation, it is a personal orientation, it's a global orientation. And here you have a community that has faced consistent and continued attacks, has been denigrated, and yet has found a way not only to survive, but to thrive. And so if I were not a member of the community, because some people, some viewers here may think, well, you're just saying that because you're a member of the community, and that's not true. But if I weren't a member of the community, I would say, if this community has been able to do something, they've been able to do the miraculous things that it's had based on its history, I would want to find out, well, what do they have? What do they know? What do they possess? And how can I take some of that? consciousness and some of that wisdom for myself in order to affect a better life. So that's where the book came from. And you don't have to be queer or LGBTQ identified in order to benefit from the queer wisdom. Uh, and I'm hoping that more people realize the beauty and the breadth and the insight that this community has, which is available for everybody if we choose to look at it and if we choose to honor what's there.

I love your positioning on that because we are kind of the sum of our experiences. And so, when leaders are looking for resiliency, they're looking for people who are able to flow and go and adapt, people who are super adaptable in tough times and that sort of thing as well. I mean, you're absolutely right. If we stop looking at limitations of our branding or our positioning, we could actually find a lot more magic out there if we look for it.

I agree. We can learn from everybody. I firmly do believe that. My parents and particularly my mom said, you can learn from everybody. Again, you can learn What not to do or what to do if you pay attention to the right things. Now, the world that we live in, I'm sure people have some very colorful names and expressions and identifiers for the type of world that we're living in as of March 2025. Let's just call it this, VUCA. So what does VUCA stand for? VUCA stands for volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. Now, some of you may be thinking, is that a new COVID strain? It's not. VUCA is the way social scientists are describing the world that we live in.

Yes.

So what organ— what community has had more experience with volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity than the LGBTQ+ community? And so the LGBTQ community has been able to navigate this world going back for decades. So let me give you a quick example. So of course, the best example of dealing with uncertainty and volatility, as an example, would be COVID, or let's look at the past 4 years. We're dealing with climate change, we're dealing with warfare, we've dealt with COVID we've dealt with challenges or problems with sustainability. So we've also dealt with a shrinking labor market, we've dealt with recessions, we're now dealing with trade wars and tariffs. So let me give you an example of how LGBTQ people have dealt with some of those issues, or similar issues, I should say. A lot of people forget that before there was this global pandemic known as COVID, there was one called HIV and AIDS. And that was something that dotted our landscape in the late 1970s and 1980s. And LGBTQ people were left to fend for themselves. They didn't have resources. You didn't have, in many instances, governments and the goodwill of humanity helping us to figure out how to deal with this, much less to overcome and to avoid HIV infections and the deaths related to AIDS. So we had to figure out how were we going to manage that. And so there were many implications. One of the things that I found most fascinating, and I know this just from my own personal history of studying the community, was that in the '70s and '80s, when you had a number of LGBTQ people who were homeless, who might have been infected, who were tossed out on the street by their families, living in locations such as New York or London or Los Angeles or Chicago, there were elders in the community who came together and said, we've got to save these young people. And so what did they do? They created these makeshift families where there were kind of these mothers or fathers, if you will. There were these new family units that came together and there were some very clear rules and there were some very clear guidelines. So the elders said to a lot of the young people, we want to make sure that you're safe. We want to make sure that you're getting an education. We want to make sure that you are operating in a way that ensures Your survivability. And if you can abide by these rules, I'm going to become your den mother. I'm going to be kind of the person who looks after you. And then these family units competed in ballroom pageants throughout different regions and municipalities. So in New York, for example, it was called ballroom culture. And you have people who performed and they dressed up in very, you know, in like they were going to pageants and whatnot. And they performed, whether it was dance or drag or whatnot, as a way of raising money, but also raising the collective esteem. of the people who they were there to support, namely these young people. And that's how a number of people survived. So what's the value that people got from that? The idea of community, the idea of interconnectedness, the idea of resiliency, the idea of adaptability. So that is just one example of many of how the LGBTQ people, or the LGBTQ community, I should say, was able to take circumstances and to be transformational leaders. by virtue of their cultural pathway. If more people understood those lessons, because I remember COVID wasn't that long ago, right? And I remember people struggling with, how do I feel? How do I stay connected? How do I find purpose? What do I do when I'm stripped of consumerism and television and all the things that serve to distract us? That was one key lesson. And I noticed just in my circle and in my sphere, The people who had the easiest time adapting were LGBTQ people because they had already been through something like that, or they had already heard the lessons, the stories, and that wisdom had already been passed down through the generations to say, we've seen this before. This is how we can adapt. This is how we can adjust to make sure that we not only, again, survive but thrive. And so with that type of uncertainty and with that type of ambiguity, which is again commonplace in the world that we live in right now, We need to listen to marginalized communities that have this cultural genius, this wisdom that they can impart to help us to understand how do we make sense of things that we haven't dealt with before? How do we deal with the fact that we're dealing with all these things at the same time? That is, to me, the essence of transformational leadership. And that's where the wisdom and the brilliance of the LGBTQ community has such great import. If, again, people simply take time to pay attention and to listen.

It really seems to me that the mindset or the philosophy goes from, this is happening to me, to, this is happening to us. And that changes how we react to it, doesn't it?

Right. It's going from what I like to call going from the me to the we. So, one of the questions I always like to ask when I'm working with systems and working with organizations is 2 questions. What— the first being, I want and what do we need? And I think you have to operate thinking about both if you're going to be an effective leader. What do I want in this moment, but what do we need? Which sometimes may not be perfectly aligned. What I want, what my agenda is, what my perspective is, may not be what the collective is in search of. And in that case, you have to adjust and recalibrate to make sure that, again, that your ego doesn't override the needs of the people or override the needs of the collective. And so that sense of community, because I know when people think of the LGBTQ+ community, we think that there's this— sometimes people think there's this homogenous group and there's many different subgroups and sub-communities within the LGBTQ community. You have, for example, those who are lesbian, obviously bisexual, gay, trans, those who are gender nonconforming, those who are genderqueer, those who are asexual. There's so many. They're grouped together primarily because we have a sense society that has a very one-dimensional, sometimes two-dimensional way of looking at sexuality and gender. So you have these groups that are in many ways disparate working together when we're at our best to say, how can we support each other and how can we make sure that all of us live the type of life that we want? And again, we know, probably have, we're more familiar with VUCA than I think we care to be. We're more familiar with volatility. So for example, in the US, We know that there are a number of states where trans youth cannot get gender-affirming care. I think the number is 24, it may be up to 26. I lose count because it seems like every day trans people are in the news for reasons that I don't— I understand, but I don't understand. So when you're dealing with that type of volatility, how do you negotiate that? And I think too, even if we take a step back from, again, the externalities that we deal with, Being part of this community and coming out as such means that, again, you have to go through and do deep dive into yourself. You have to really spend time examining yourself from a personal standpoint to say, who am I and where do I begin and where does— or where do these societal expectations end? Where's the separation? How do I come to know who I am, what my strengths are, what my beliefs are, not only apart from larger society, but also apart from the community? Because just because we're part of the community— It doesn't mean that we're lockstep or that we agree or that we express our values in the same way. So, doing that deep work, focusing on that self-actualization is the very essence of leadership. You have to go within to go beyond. That's one of the key things I like to say to people all the time. You have to go within to figure out who you are, what works for you, what your value system is, what your talents are in order to, again, live purposefully, to live intentionally and to create the value that's needed for not just for yourself, but those around you.

How does a leader in today's day and age adapt and be aware of kind of all the differences that they need to be leading within their culture? Because you just mentioned like so many different communities. Each of the communities might have their own will, wants, and desires, but at the same token, they also have to fit into a, a, a, the overall world community. of working within organizations and that sort of thing. So, how do leaders— how can leaders learn to adapt to have a better understanding of what the needs are of their communities?

I think you have to be observational. I think you have to pay attention to what's around you. I think just noticing. So, leadership is not just acting. It's not just performing. It's also sometimes just having a keen eye to say, what's taking place With people around me? What am I noticing? What's missing in the environment? What am I noticing when I take this particular action or when I speak, when I exhibit this type of behavior? So, you can certainly ask. You know, leadership doesn't always have to be magic. It doesn't—

I know, and I'll tell you. Right.

It doesn't have to be this omnipotent thing where I say, I'm going to go up on a mountaintop, I'm going to meditate and come to this idea, and I'm going to come back down. What I sometimes say to people is, did you just ask the people around you what they need?

Yes.

And I'll have people say, no, I didn't really think about that. Well, you don't have to work so hard. Talk to people, communicate, but also notice because there is a power dynamic, and that's why that's important. So sometimes, if you haven't created psychological safety, if you haven't built a relationship, if you haven't created the conditions where people are going to be candid with you, pay attention to what's being said. Pay attention to how people are showing up. Just the The act of observation, of being curious, of being empathetic can help you to gain the information you need to say, this is what's needed. And I think we also have to realize too that with leadership, it's not a one-shot deal. So let's say, for example, you try something and let's say it doesn't work. Well, that's where the adaptability has to come into play.

Mm-hmm.

So anytime that you try something, you have to adapt or recognize that there is a bit of what I would say Experimentation involved. And people don't like to hear that because they're saying, well, as a leader, I should just know. But in some instances, you don't know. And anybody who's a parent understands that, right? So you try something. Let's say you say, I'm going to try this type of— adopt this type of ritual, take note of what's happening, take note of how people are responding to you based on that, but then make adjustments. And you may have to make slight adjustments in certain cases, or you may have to scrap your strategy altogether and start back from the basics or start back at your foundational level. That's part of leadership is, again, adjusting and adapting. And I know I hear a lot of times people will say, I don't like surprises, I don't like change, but change is the very essence of life. And so you have to be comfortable with the idea that things are going to require adjustments on a day-to-day basis. The weather. I mean, so for example, I'm sitting here, it's raining here in New York. It requires me to adapt tomorrow based on how winter and spring operate in New York, it might be 60 degrees. Change is something that we just need to be able to recognize and adapt to. And those that can recognize that, again, in a VUCA world, are gonna be the leaders that people are going to follow, support, and look to for answers and solutions as we move further into the 21st century.

You bring up so many good points. And I think this, this idea of being adaptable is the one thing that I think maybe leaders struggle with somewhat. Because they think that they have to have all the answers. And so this idea of being able to turn around and admit that you don't know something, I think, is a very strong virtue that leaders need to bring to the forefront. This is a fascinating conversation, Joel. If this is resonating with the audience, how can they get a hold of you?

Wow, time has flown by. So they want to get a hold of me, you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm trying to lessen my presence on social media because I think social media in some cases has not been entirely healthy.

Right.

But LinkedIn would be the best. You can also find me on Instagram @JoelABrown. And you can also reach me at joeldavisbrown.com or at numos.com. Send me an email, reach out. I love to stay connected and to meet people and also learn from people because, again, this is a two-way or multidirectional conversation. So, um, if anybody got anything from this conversation, I also recognize that I can also, and I'm continually learning from other people and their insights and their experiences as well.

Earlier, you mentioned a phrase, cultural genius. Can you define what that means and why it's critical for our leadership today?

Yes. Cultural genius is a leadership acumen that we acquire by virtue of our cultural pathway. So many, all of us acquire this type of insight and wisdom based on our cultural experiences. And so, for example, as an African American, as an LGBTQ person, There are things that I've seen that have allowed me to become the leader that I am. So, for example, code-switching. Based on the environment that I am, that I find myself in, I might present one way based on the cultural norms and expectations of that particular ecosystem, and I might show up a different way based on a different culture, a different set of norms or expectations and whatnot. I've had to learn that as an African American and also as an LGBTQ person, primarily because some of the environments I found myself in were not safe. It wasn't, let's say, it was not a good idea for me to show up and present a certain way. So I had to access different parts of my being, different parts of who I was in order to survive. That has allowed me to continue to adapt. Now, for you and for other people, and some people might say, well, do I have to be part of a marginalized community? No. We all, based on intersectional analysis, have gifts and talents based on where we are in the world, and those gifts and talents can help us to be Better. So using the things that perhaps we do routinely, naturally, or in a secondhand fashion and applying them in a more intentional way to some of the leadership dilemmas that we face regularly within the workplace.

So when you say that about that aspect of adaptability, we also hear in our vernacular through leadership and so on, this phrase of, or this, this mindset of authenticity. So, yeah, could it be that somebody's watching this and going, well then that's not very authentic if you're one way, one, in one group and then another way in another group, where's your authenticity?

I am so glad you brought this up because this is a topic that I was speaking to very recently. And it's the idea that authenticity has to be strategic. Look at it from this standpoint. So I'm going to, I'm going to liken you, Marc, to a superhero or a super person. Okay. So you have a talent for connecting with people, extracting information, imparting wisdom. You have a number of different superhero talents, right?

Mm-hmm.

And authenticity doesn't mean that you display or use them all at the same time. So let's say in one situation, it may require you to rely on your gift of connectivity, of building relationships, or being relational. In a different situation, you might need to use a different talent, a different power that you have. All— each of those powers is you. They come from you. They are quintessentially what make you who you are. It just means that you have to be smart and savvy to recognize when one is needed and when one is not. It doesn't mean that you're being any less authentic. It means that you're recognizing that you have greater range than what you may show in a particular situation. So all of these, let's say from an adaptive standpoint, all of the talents or all of the powers that I have are still very much a part of me. I just need to be smart and recognize when some of them are needed and some of them perhaps are better left in the fold. So, that's not me being any less authentic. What it is showing is that I'm also being conscious and globally aware of what's needed in the time. Again, I want, we need. There's a difference, right? So, that's what I would say to people when— who would say, well, are you really being authentic? Absolutely. You're also being strategic, which is a key component and a key ingredient of transformational leadership.

And, you know, and I was actually surprised that you went down that route because I was thoroughly expecting you to turn around and go, well, our authenticity is rooted in our values. And as long as we don't compromise our values, we are going to be authentic. And to your point, then you use strategy to figure out how I need to communicate with this particular person or this kind of personality type in order to get to where you need to be and how you need to lead and how you need to accomplish your tasks. But that rooting in the values, I think, is really a key component to it as well.

Yes, absolutely. And making sure that you're not doing— I mean, our values are the DNA of who we are. Yes. And making sure that what we do and how we show up on a given day is not compromising who we are. There may be times, for example, and I can think back to, example, working for a law firm where, you know, I wanted to be more open, I wanted to be more out, but I also wanted to make sure that I could secure the offer Which would allow me then to build and to further my career so that I could ultimately reach my goal. Was I denying who I was? No. But there were times where I realized, given the audience, it wasn't the right time for me to share certain parts of myself. And I didn't tell them or portray myself in a way that was disingenuous or that was false. But I had to also recognize I also have a value of personal safety, of self-preservation. And so that value became more important at that particular time. And so To paraphrase kind of this idea, Michelle Obama said at one point, you can do everything you want to do in your life. You just can't do it at the same time. And sometimes I would say with values, you can hold true to all your values, but sometimes you may not be able to focus on each of the values all at the same time, depending on what the situation is and depending on where you are in your life stage. So that's what I would say to you. It's a balancing act. And again, life is not about black and white. It's about gray and being nuanced and understanding context and recognizing that in a particular situation, There might be times where one value supersedes another value. And as long as you're not doing something that ultimately leads to your spiritual death, where you can't recognize yourself and you're being antithetical to everything that you stand for, I think we can give ourselves grace and we can give ourselves compassion, which is another unheralded piece of transformational leadership, how we regard ourselves and allow ourselves to be human, to make mistakes, and to grow from those mistakes and be a better person.

Gosh, I wish we had like 4 hours to do this, Joel.

I do too. There's so much that we can tap into.

We can do this very quickly.

Yeah, it's brilliant. Hey, when we come back, I want to talk about some pitfalls and cautionaries as people consume this information. My biggest fear is always having somebody who learns something but then runs into their business and tells all their staff, hey, we're going to try something new for the next 30 days. And I'm always afraid of the band-aiding. So, when we come back, we'll talk about some pitfalls and cautionaries as people want to make the change.

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Welcome back. We are having this phenomenal discussion. As I said, I wish we'd go on for hours and hours because there's so much I think that we could delve into. But as you can tell, Joel and I are super focused on serving you and your team. So, if you're planning a leadership retreat or a conference, or you'd like to explore how we could be of benefit to you and your team, drop us a line. Our contact information is in the show notes. We are here to serve. So, Joel, when you see businesses kind of wanting to take kind of the fast track to fix things in their businesses, what are some common mistakes leaders make when they're trying to adopt a more transformational leadership practice?

I would say first, not letting people know what they're doing and the purpose for why they're doing it. So, making the connection to say, this is where we've been, and understanding that people are attached to that particular reality. So, people are bought into where they are because it's comfortable, it's familiar, but letting them know that there's a new vision, a new place that you can go to, and what are the benefits to be derived by operating in a different way. I think also helping people to say, or saying to your organization, This is what I'm going to do, and to also provide some guardrails and some, some quote unquote safety measures there so that people understand that this is going to take time. There's an adjustment period. We can't expect people to instantly, you know, operate a different way when they've been operating a certain way for months, if not years. So, make sure that you give people the grace and the space to make mistakes, to learn, to understand, to show curiosity. And I would also say focus on those early adopters. That's the other thing too. So when we talk about organizational change, when you're looking to do something different, you'll get people who are going to be skeptics. You're gonna get people who are gonna be resistant. And understand, first of all, that resistance is simply energy in a different direction. So we don't want to denigrate people who simply have a different idea or a different belief system. We wanna make sure that we honor where they are and honor their journey. At the same time, when you have people who are bought in, who are invested, who say, I want to support you in X, Y, and Z, or I see the value of what we're doing, I see the vision and the promised land of where we're going, focus on those people and use them as ambassadors to help sell the change that you want. The key thing too, I would also say, is to make sure that you do so in stages. Make sure that you don't try to sell people on wholesale change immediately. Make sure that you give people time to breathe, to adapt, and to catch up. There's this idea, it's called the perceived weirdness index, and it's the idea that in organizational change, if the perceived weirdness index is too high, then people will not be as invested. So it has an inverse relationship with people's willingness to change. So if I come in and I say, okay, we've been kind of this stodgy, formal outfit for so long, and all of a sudden overnight, We're sharing our deepest, darkest secrets, and we're telling personal stories, and we're getting really in touch with our emotions and whatnot, people are going to look at me and say, this person is too weird, based on where our current cultural baseline is, for me to feel safe and to be fully on board with what they need to do. So we need to remember that people need time to get adjusted to change, and it needs to be done in an incremental way. There needs to be transparency. There needs to be kind of the business case, why are we doing this, and giving people time and grace to grow as you step into this change and help people to maneuver and negotiate whatever change that you're introducing to the system.

For people who are going through wanting to make this change, I really love that you have that weirdness component in there because I think it's absolutely— as you were saying it, it was like, oh, yeah, that happened there, and that happened there, and that happened there. But what advice would you give leaders to ensure that they're just not going through the motions, But truly embracing what we've been talking about through the introspection and even the inclusivity piece.

You have to model the work that you want other people to do. And so as a leader, it's— and I've seen this happen with a lot of DEI initiatives, a lot of organizational change initiatives where it's outsourced. People come up with these grand pronouncements and then it's like passing tablets down from the mountain. This is what you all should do without embodying the change themselves. And so leaders need to be on the pathways themselves. They need to model. They need to be vulnerable about their progress and their challenges as a way of helping to showcase to other people what the pathway is like and to help people to get comfortable with the change that they're trying to do. That's where the work has to begin. And so, for the organizations that have done this work well, the leaders are bought in. It's not performative. They're actually embodying the work as opposed to just A signaling that the work needs to be done. That's what I would like to see people do. And I would like to see more senior leaders emulate the work and take the work seriously and recognize that the work is not just for others to do, it is for them to do it as well.

So if you model it, people will mirror it.

Right. It's accountability, right? You have to be accountable for the work that you're trying to do.

Yeah.

Joel, this has been such a great discussion. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

The last thing I would say is, given the day and age that we're in, I'm hearing a lot of people say, where do we look for leadership? Who's the next leader? And I've been in a number of situations where people try to become someone else. I even talk about this in the book, whereby I went to a meeting once with a high-profile consultant. Everybody was trying to be Dave, and you can't be Dave. You can only be yourself. And so what I would say to people as we conclude is, The leader you're looking for is you. You shouldn't try to be like Joel. You shouldn't try to be like Marc, but you can be a powerful leader in your own way. So the values that we've talked about are the ingredients, but you get to express them in a way that fits your sensibilities and your personality and your background and your own cultural genius. Do that, but allow yourself to be yourself, but recognize that leadership begins with you and the leader that you're looking for is right there in the mirror. So that's the message I would like to leave people with today. Terrific.

Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Sure. joeldavisbrown.com, pneumos.com, spelled with a P, LinkedIn, Instagram. I think that will cover all the bases, and you should be able to, should be able to find me there. I'm not very hard to find.

Thank you very much. I'd love to have you back another time to talk maybe about something else within leadership. This has been a hoot.

Absolutely.

And a half. Thank you for— because I know I only paid for the hoot, not the other half. So, thank you for this.

It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time to brainstorm your business with you and your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is in the show notes. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. It would be my absolute honor to be of service to you. And while you're at it, why don't you go ahead and leave a comment or review about this episode? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? And while you're at it, make sure you subscribe. It has been so great being here with you today. Thank you for joining me. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.

Thank you for joining us this week on Experience Leadership. Make sure you visit marchaine.com for a full directory of available episodes. While you're at it, if you found today's content invaluable, please share it and tell your friends about the show. As Marc says, knowledge is power, but only if you share it. Be sure to tune in each week for the newest episode. Please stay safe, stay healthy, and dare to be the exception.