Why Gen Z is Quitting Management (And What To Do About It)

We are in a new era of work where showing up as your full authentic self is no longer an option. It is the expectation. But here's the challenge. Gen Zs aren't resisting management. They're rewriting the rules of leadership entirely. So, the big question is, Are we training them to lead or are we training them to leave? And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. So, welcome to this episode. This is of course where small business owners and entrepreneurs develop new skills to help them create the jaw-dropping, show-stopping experience that their customers and of course, their employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And I'm so glad that you are tuning in today because today, we're pulling back the curtain on what it really takes to build leaders who don't burn out, sell out, or opt out. But instead, they rise up to lead with authenticity, purpose, and a whole lot of humanity. So, my one ask for you today is if you know somebody who could use this information, Please make sure that you share a link to this episode because knowledge is power. But it's only powerful when we share it. And I know you probably have people in your circle pulling out their hair going, I don't know why I have this problem. And so, you can share this episode and help make their day a little bit brighter. And please, for goodness' sake, please make sure that you subscribe to the podcast. We're on our way to getting 2,000 subscribers. 2,000 subscribers is small in comparison to all the Mega YouTubers out there. But you know what? We're just doing our part. So, please make sure you subscribe. You know, it is really clear. And if we are being honest, leadership training has barely evolved since the flip phone. In fact, in some organizations I know, leadership training has barely evolved past the rotary phone stage, if you know what I mean. We drag folks through one-day workshops. We hope something sticks and then wonder why our teams are disengaged and disconnected. Now, we add Gen Zs into the mix and generation is shaped by isolation, social change, a pandemic-sized identity crisis. And ultimately, Gen Zs don't want hierarchy. They want humanity. And that brings us to our Question of the Day. So, are you building leaders who feel safe being themselves? Or are you accidentally training them to conform, burn out, and check out? I'd love for you to be part of this conversation. Why don't you go ahead, share this episode on your favorite social media platform, hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership, and then make sure you put your comments down. Or you can even put a comment in the comments here on this broadcast. I am thrilled to introduce my guest for this episode, Christy Predzinger, the Chief Better Officer. She's a best-selling author and a cultural architect behind 2 transformative movements: the WG Content and the Better Leader Project. From humble beginnings as a freelance writer, Christy grew WG Content into a nationally recognized healthcare content consultancy, and more importantly, into a workplace defined by empowerment, kindness, curiosity, and fun. My goodness, that sounds like a place I want to work. Now, she's on a mission to reshape leadership from the inside out, helping Gen Z leaders show up better. Not perfect but better. Kristy, welcome to the show. I'm thrilled you're here.

Well, thank you so much for having me, Marc. I'm really looking forward to our conversation.

So, before we get too deep into today's topic, could you tell us a little bit about who your customers are and how you serve them?

Well, the business that is my foundational business, which is WG Content, is an organization that works with hospitals and large healthcare systems all across the United States, creating content for their websites largely around long-form content like what to expect when you have a surgery or how to look for treatments for particular conditions you may have. So, we've been doing that for about 20 years. And then, just recently, I'm actually in the process of starting the Better Leader Project.

And so, what made you realize that there was a leadership gap specifically for the Gen Zs?

Well, it was over 30 years of building a business. I learned some things as you do as you go along. And especially building the culture of my own current business, the WG Content, I realized in retrospect, which is when I realized most things, that I had built it for millennials, even though I'm at the tail end of the boomers. And as I was building it, I realized I wanted people to have life-work balance in that order. I didn't want people to have to ask for permission to live their life, go to the doctor, pick up a kid from school, things like that. And I wanted to make an environment where I wanted to work. So again, hindsight, look back, I'm like, Oh, that's very interesting. I ended up attracting a lot of millennials. They're still with me, many of them more than 10 years. And so, I somehow seem to understand what younger employees are looking for. So, I started up with the idea of the Better Leader Project because I don't see it so much in my organization because it's small and I control it. But I see it across the country and in a lot of the organizations we work with that there's a real lack of leadership skills. And frequently, people don't ever get any training. They are elevated to a position of management. Usually, that's what it's called as opposed to leadership. And then they're just kind of set loose. And that can be really, really damaging to the people they lead. So, looking at that, and I wrote the book, Your Cultural Balance Sheet, which is about creating environments where people can thrive. So, it all is kind of growing out of that. And then looking at the workplace as it is now and what it is evolving into. And Gen Z are coming in. I mean, they're in their mid-20s and still in college. And they're coming into the workplace and they have very, very different expectations of their employers and of the workplace than their previous generations did. So, I started looking at that and thinking, wow, I think I could target this particular, the Better Leader Project to that generation and really have an impact and help them, set them up for success to be the leaders they want to be and to be the change they need to be in the world going forward.

Yeah, so it was interesting because you mentioned of course, people getting promoted into management positions without training. Obviously, that we just before we hit the button to record this episode, we were talking about this, my theory about incidental leaders. The reason why I created this podcast in the first place. And so, we haven't changed our method. People are Good performers, high performers, they get pinpointed. You'd be an amazing leader. In fact, why don't we promote you to a manager and you can teach everybody to be as good as you? And then, we not only do disservice to the team but we do disservice to them because now they're just using skills. They're trying to use skills that they've adopted and trying to do it as a management, as a leader within their teams. And it just doesn't work. So, when we say that the leadership training development programs are failing, More so than that, we're still in this industrial age kind of mindset of let's promote the good performers and hopefully, our business will get better.

Yeah, well, I think my dad— this is very old school and probably inappropriate. But he used to say, you rise to your level of incompetence. I used to find that pretty annoying. But there is an element, a kernel of truth in that. That someone who's a good performer and perhaps should remain an individual contributor that we make as a business owner, team leader, whatever, you have an authority to promote someone. We make the mistake of promoting those people as you just said and thinking, oh, you can teach everyone how to do that. Well, first of all, maybe they can't. And second of all, maybe they don't want to. So, it's very important to make sure that you align the career pathing for the employee with the employee's own ideas of their career path. Because we do that quite a bit. We have several employees that we think are amazing at specific things. And we're like, hey, I wonder if she would be great in this role. And then, we ask her and she's like, No, I like what I do here. I don't want to be a leader, a manager. I don't want to have a team of people. I like being an individual contributor.

So, I can use my daughter as an example. She just turned 24 and she's been asked multiple times. She's a server at a restaurant and she's been asked many times to step into management roles. And she says, are you kidding? Why would I want to? Why would I take a pay cut? Why would I have all that stress put on me and have to work more hours? And so, she's just not interested because the quality of life is different, right?

Very much so. Very much so. I think personally, in my own experience, management, if you want to use that term, or leading people is a privilege. And it's probably one of the most worthwhile careers or professions that you can have if you take it seriously and realize what a really good impact you can have on the lives of the people that you lead. But it does require intention and attention.

Yes.

So, for the people who do train people into leadership roles, we're still dealing with like traditional leadership development programs. And so, how are these traditional leadership development programs failing this new generation?

Well, I think that you mentioned, you're right. We haven't really done a lot of change in the area of leadership development, training, instructional design, whatever you want to call it. It's still, especially in corporate environments, it's very much HR-led. And in my experience, most people usually say nothing good comes out of HR, especially if you're in a large company. And they tend to be workshops that are 1 or 2 days. They take somebody and put them in there. It's immersive, maybe for a couple of days. And the thing that happens because we are human beings with tendencies is that after taking a workshop like that, your change, you might go up a little bit, but then after a couple of days, you're going to fall right back down to learned established behaviors. It's like comfortable shoes. That's just our inclination. So, I've known that for years. And the way that in my organization that we train up managers, we actually do individual training and have them work with a coach for a period of time. And I can tell you several of the people that moved into management in my organization said, and they had been in management at other companies, they had never had a moment of management or leadership training until they came to this small business, which I thought was very interesting.

Interesting. Yeah, it's interesting because when you think about the workshop stuff, like my background's been in hospitality where I do kind of— I help rescue hotels and restaurants and that sort of thing. And of course, there are tons of reality shows on TV all around this whole theme where they do it over 5 days and then they walk away. And it's like, and then you do the research and it's like, oh, they end up closing anyway.

Right.

Because part of the challenge, like the workshop, you're in it and it's like, oh, these are really good concepts. Oh, I should try that. This is really good. But because there was no training on kind of what the impetus is for our behaviors, the change is very short-term. Like when I do, when I go into a hotel, I'm there for maybe 17 months to 4 years because it takes time to initiate the change and to change culture and to change value systems and to move people into more constructive development rather than just a 2-day workshop. So, are there signs that a company is unintentionally alienating their Gen Z talent as they number one, peg them for promotion but number two, get them into a leadership role?

I think there's a lot of evidence of that. I think that You know, this amuses me because I look at the way that frequently it's Gen X people, generally speaking, who are the parents of Gen Z. And they say rather disparaging things about Gen Z. And I think, well, the only thing that's telling you is that you had some parenting issues because this is your— the generation you created. I think the same thing could be said of the boomer generation, the greatest generation, looking back at the people who are now, you know, the Gen Xers who are raising children. So I think that it's important to have that kind of perspective and recognize The differences between generations that have always been there, always will be there, and actually are the source of many of the good ideas and the good things that come out of the differences between that. So, in terms of the things that people want that are different, the things that I've learned about Gen Z, and I have a 24-year-old son as well, that they do not want management because they've seen their parents and friends of parents, parents' friends being churned out, used up and spit out. And they don't like that. But that doesn't mean they're opting out of leadership. They're still very interested in leadership, which they view as different. And it is different than management. So, they don't want management. They want leadership. I think a lot of us grew up with going to work and they're like, leave all of that stuff at the door. Leave your personal stuff, your emotions or whatever at the door. You're coming to work. And they are having none of that. They're like, I am a whole person and the whole me is coming to work regardless of whether you want me to or not. And I think that's pretty valid because even though people try and pretend like you could leave that. No one ever can. Most people are not really successful at compartmentalizing it. Somewhere it catches up. And so, I think it's a value that they want to be authentic and completely themselves. And one of the things that strikes me, given my age, is that I was around for Oprah back years ago, 30 years ago, when she used to talk about authenticity all the time, to the point where I think the word lost its meaning. And now, this generation is bringing it back. And I'm happy to see that because I think authenticity is extremely important in effective leadership and effective team building. And effective teams make for stronger organizations. So, I see that being as a really core strength that Gen Z brings to the table. There's an unspoken psychological contract that we always have between employers and employees. And in older generations, it was more of an ethics of justice. kind of look at things about like, I'm paying you. I get your time from 8 to 5 because I'm paying you. That's fair. That seems fair. Whereas now, there's much more an ethics of caring, which personally appeals to me because that's more my type anyway. But really, it's more like, what am I getting for the value I'm giving? Recognizing I'm giving something here. And it's not just transactional like you give me a paycheck and I'll show up from 8 to 5. It's like, I'm a whole person and I'm going to grow and change here. And the organization will grow and change as a result of me. And how can we make this a reciprocal as opposed to transactional relationship?

I love that. Of course, my tagline is, dare to lead with love and kindness first. And so, jumping as you were saying that, I'm getting goosebumps because if we care about the whole person, then it changes how we lead. It changes how— it even changes our conversation, doesn't it?

Very much so, very much so. I think one of the things that I know to be a universal human truth is that every single human being needs to know that they matter. That is a common need. And the interesting thing about that is that you can't do it alone. You have to matter in community. And so, that I think bringing that whole idea to leadership, to recognizing that I want the people that I lead to know that they matter to me. Their hopes and dreams matter to me. The issues going on in their life matter to me. I don't need to know all the details. I just need to understand that these are whole human beings.

They're not just this project manager or this writer or this Do you think that the world as a whole, the employment world as a whole got a sense of that with COVID when all of a sudden, we started zooming in on people's lives? Like all of a sudden, we understood that somebody was working in their bedroom or that they had kids or pets or that all of a sudden now, we stopped seeing people just as this one-dimensional kind of entity who walked into our business. and then walked out of our business. But now, we're actually getting a peek. We actually got a peek into their kind of existence. Do you think that that changed any kind of processes as far as leaders were concerned?

In my own experience, I would say it was short-term. My organization has always been virtual. So, when COVID hit and everybody went into lockdown, we were already well prepared for that. And so, we were able to help a lot of our clients figure out how to Switch to that. The one thing that really benefited us, this was more about our client relationships, was that we could, to your point, see them in their home. Their kids could be running around the background and we could be very gracious saying— they'd be like, oh, I'm so sorry. We're like, no, no, you have a life. That's perfectly fine. My dog is barking. And so, that gave everybody a little bit of grace and kind of built some relationships. I think that might have gone by the wayside now as we have more and more organizations forcing people back to work whether they want to or not. And I've also heard that the hybrid situation where you work sometimes in, sometimes out is really detrimental to overall culture but also to individuals because there's the structure. People like structure one way or another. And that just is kind of a little too loosey-goosey. So, I'm not convinced that the changes that we saw during COVID have stayed with us.

Right, right. Or the awarenesses, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, it's really— so, when we think about this, when we're thinking about these Gen Gen Zs because they're coming of age now where they are coming in as young leaders. They want development. They want training. But yet, we're not at a point now where we're actually addressing their needs. This is a gap. This is like a definable gap. What would we call that if we were to reference this? And then, how is that gap really hurting businesses today?

What do you think that gap is? Gosh, I don't know. I never thought about what we would call that gap. I think it's a very evident gap. And I think you can see it in retention of employees. And maybe perhaps even in recruitment because people know what kind of environment certain companies have reputations for. Now, obviously, there are some places that people just obviously want to work at one of the big accounting firms or a huge tech firm, things like that. So, some of that is excluded there. But I don't know what you would call that gap. But I think that it's problematic for the workforce of these organizations that don't recognize it because their older employees are getting older. They're aging out. So, this is a different world that Gen Z is ushering in. And the thing that I see about Gen Z is that Because of the world in which they've grown up, COVID that shut them down depending on what age they were in, they missed a lot. And so, they don't have the— they're cynical and they're angry for many justifiable reasons. I think that happens a lot of times with younger generation. You always look at the older ones and think they've messed it up. I think they're pretty right in this case. So, they have that issue but they also, they want things to be They want things to be better. They want to have an impact on that. And they can do that if they are given the opportunity. One of the things that happened to me years ago in my career when I was employed, I was young and I had an idea, suggestion for some restructuring at this organization. I did not have the full picture. I was young, but I was eager and I had some ideas and suggestions. So, I put that forward, wrote this memo and everything. And then, Ended up really being almost belittled for it. And I ended up leaving. That company did fine. They sold for millions of dollars. They did not need me. And I ended up better off because I'm on my own. But I noticed that in my organization, I make a very big point of not shutting anybody down, but certainly not the younger people. Because maybe they don't have the whole picture. But you can recognize the eagerness, the interest, the commitment, the engagement. And those are the things that you want to really nurture and recognize and reward.

Yeah, it's so interesting because it's so easy for us to shut down ideas because people have kind of a naive kind of perception about something. They don't understand the whole picture. But why would they understand the whole picture? They're not the ones running the business. And comes up and says, oh, it'd be really great if we could put a dog park for all the employees in the backyard. I mean, that's an idea. But then, the big question as opposed to shutting it down, and I talk about this in my book, Yes, And... The Improv, right?

Yes.

Say, hey, that sounds like a really unique thing. Let's talk about why you think this is important. And then, by having that conversation and actually sitting down and picking the brain and the perception of that person, you realize that maybe there's actually a need here. And it might not be the dog park in the back shipping yard or whatever. But maybe there's something that as a cohesive organization, a community-based organization because I think all our businesses are that, that you could start coming going, oh well, you've actually identified a need. But instead of the dog park, maybe we can do this.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think that recognizing, I love the yes and. Our organization, we use a lot Oh, tell me more. And what I use for myself is, okay, you have 2 ears and 1 mouth. Use them accordingly. And so, tell me more. And then, I can stop talking for a minute and let them speak because I'm a terrible interrupter. And I try really hard not to be, but I get excited about ideas. So, trying not to do that and saying, tell me more, and letting them, to your point, not really picking their brain, just letting them kind of get it out there. What are you thinking about? Why do you think the dog park's a good idea? Tell me what do you think? What are you seeing that makes you think that would work or is necessary? Those kinds of things.

Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting because as we're talking about this, it seems so self-evident, doesn't it? And yet, business owners, we're missing it all the time.

I always laugh when I've been on a lot of podcasts talking about this topic. And sometimes, people look at me like I've invented electricity. I'm like, I think kindness is kind of really the way we're hardwired. It's really aberrant not to be kind. Because that's actually our brains are literally, we know this from neuroscience research, recent, the fMRI and everything, that our brains are hardwired for connection and community. They're hardwired for it. So, this divisiveness is antithesis to how we are made as human beings, the literal makeup of our DNA. Yeah.

And yet, when you look at the history of the Industrial Age to the Knowledge Age to now the Relationship Age, Right? We have this awareness now. But back in 1919, when it was all about putting widgets on fabric or whatever, and it was nothing but— it was just grinded out. We didn't even have that as a consideration. It was just the only way to do business was that. And the nice thing about that was if I'm working for your company, my goodness, my son will get to work for your company too.

Right, yes. And boy, that's gone by the wayside, hasn't it? There are so many companies I'm sure we could both that used to be like that, that were the bastion of an entire city. Boeing comes to mind. It used to be Seattle was Boeing and Boeing was Seattle. And people were proud to work there and they wore their merch and they were like, I want to work there when I get out of school or whatever. And sadly, that is not the case any longer. So, you're exactly right. Things change.

Yeah. I'd like to jump into some things that people tuning in can start to consider. consider to help change the tide when engaging with their Gen Zs and developing their skills into leadership. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I am speaking with Kristy Pretzinger today. And Kristy, you teased us a little bit about your book. I'd love to go a little bit deeper into what people can expect. What value can they get out of by getting your book?

Well, it's called, as I mentioned, Your Cultural Balance Sheet: Keys to Creating an Environment Where People Can Thrive. The whole idea of the cultural balance sheet is really appealing to anyone who has sort of financial responsibility. So, they look at balance sheets or financials and then doing the twist of saying, oh, maybe there's a cultural piece like that as well. So, that's where that came from. And what it is, is I think there are 43 keys in the book and they are short and pretty. They're like little snacks. So, you can dig in and read one about the importance of values and how you make sure you take them off the wall and live them. And then, how do you do that? And then, after that, there'd be a way to implement that idea in your own organization or your own team. So, it's something that, like I said, well, I think we have the attention span of gnats now, including myself. I used to be able to read for hours. Now, I'm like, give me little bits. So, that's why this is done in small chunks so that you can pick it up and pick into it at any point. It's not a long narrative.

Terrific! And it's all based on the conversation we're having today, isn't it?

Yeah, very much so. I mean, it's based on 30 years of experience in building a business and realizing again, more in hindsight. Back in about 2020, we started working with some consultants. And the first thing they did Was talk to all of the employees and to discover what is the core of your business? What is the thing without which you would not exist? And we came to find out that culture was our core, which you know is kind of counterintuitive because I think most team leaders or business owners would think, well, you can't monetize that. But actually, anyone who ever looked at a balance sheet knows that turnover is a hidden cost on a balance sheet; doesn't show up anywhere. And employees or people only show up on the liability side, which is. Really crazy if you think about it because we all know that people are the core of your business. So, to make that a liability financially is that's bonkers. But so, that's really why I just took that and kind of turned it on its head.

Well, it was interesting because one of the things doing a business, helping somebody with a business plan and the bank wanted to know who was on the team and what did they bring to the forefront. So, even though your labor cost is an expense in the expense column, for this project to go forward. The bank wanted to know what were the magical superpowers of the people on the team to help make this project a reality. And so, it's like, well, how does that work then if it's on the expense side and liability side? How does it work for the banking and the liability mitigation if the bank is asking for who are the superpower people on your team?

Yeah, I mean, I think that's where it shows the limits of those financial sheets. And in my own experience and belief, I think that, again, we are hardwired for connection and community.

Correct.

And so, looking at a business only through the bottom line, only looking at the EBITDA, whatever the margins are, or whatever your multiple could be if you exited, I personally think that's aberrant thinking. I don't think that's the way we're meant to be. Now, there's nothing wrong with having money. I'm not even saying that's the problem. I'm just saying it's not the only measure of the success of anything, a person, an organization, or anything.

Right. So, am I right in assuming that the biggest differentiators between today's Gen Zs and essentially the kind of the rest of the workforce is really all based around values more than anything else?

Yeah, that's a pretty succinct way of saying it. I think that when I talk to my son's friends, they're all in law school and other, my stepchildren as well are are Gen Z. They have very different expectations and very different— I don't know if I can say demands but demands of things that up with which they will put. There's not a lot that they're gonna— they're like, I'm not going to go in and be treated like a cog in a wheel. I want to be recognized for the individual skills and traits that make me an asset to this organization. Whereas I think In older generations, frequently, especially when you get into big corporations like I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, and Procter Gamble is a very large employer here. And for older generations getting a job there, you put on the suit, you looked the way they looked, you climbed that ladder. There was a certain way that you did it. There was career pathing. And if you did it right, you would retire and have millions of dollars. It's not a bad way to go if that's what you want to do. Now, I think people have changed and that's not People want more out of their lives than just that now. And I think COVID might have brought that to the forefront, realizing that like, wow, work is definitely not the only thing I've got that's important to me, or it shouldn't be.

Right. So, you mentioned earlier about the idea, this idea of ethics of justice versus ethics of caring.

What needs to substantially change in our workforces in order to create that Well, there's, you know, people throw around the term psychological safety a lot, but it's very, very important to the development of any sort of team or organization. And that probably has grown out of this whole ethics of care a little bit. I feel like I've heard more about that in the past, I don't know, 5 to 8 years than I ever did before. And I think that that's a vital part of our humanity and appealing to the humanity of the people who work with us. with us or for us in whatever capacity. So, tell me again. See, here I am. I'm going off. I started talking about something else and now I don't remember the exact question, Marc.

Well, talking about this whole idea of ethics of caring is what needs to happen in order to imbibe this into our corporate cultures now.

Wow! Well, that's a big change. And I think it's asking a lot for some perhaps older in my generation are not going to do that. They're like, that's not the way we work. They're not going to do it. I think that just as with anything else, when when you know the the boomers, the hippies came into the workplace and the greatest generation was looking at them, there had to be modifications to things. But I think they happen slowly, and I think they happen within generations. There are you know people like myself who for whatever reason are open to that different way of behaving or leading or evaluating. You know not everyone is like that, but it serves you well to be willing to look at that. And in my personal case, one of the things I. love about working with younger people is that they have so much more energy than I do. I don't have that energy anymore. But I have the wisdom because I've been doing this for so long. So, I have a whole lot of wisdom but I don't have the same energy. And it's really—

You have the wisdom but you need a nap.

Yes, I need a nap. I can talk about it. Just don't make me do anything.

So, tell us a little bit about this Better Leader Project that you're doing. What is it and why is it important now, do you think?

Well, again, it kind of grew out of the book and it grew out of some other experiences that I've had in my life. One of them is that I am a member of an organization called Entrepreneurs Organization. And it is a global organization like, I don't know, 70 countries or something, all made up of entrepreneurs. And they are all structured the same. Each chapter is structured the same. The practices are the same. And they've been really instrumental in really helping me grow as a leader and as a person through the things I learned in that organization. So, one of the things is that there are small groups called forums in Entrepreneurs Organization. And so, you have this group of people that's probably around 8 people, 7 to 8 people. And you meet monthly and you practice the skills of self-awareness. And one of the tenets of that that I learned there was rather than advice giving, we do experience sharing. Because most people don't like advice. And interestingly enough, you think about it like a job review, performance review, or I mean, that's advice. Nobody likes it. It's not fun and nobody likes it. And nobody likes it when they hear you should do something. So, what happens oppositionally to that with experience sharing is when someone shares whatever's happening to them, if they're having an issue or whatever, if they come to you for something and they share it with you through experience sharing, you can say, well, I had a situation similar to that and this was what I did. And here's how that worked out, whether it was good or bad. So, you can share that with someone and then they have the capacity and the skills to go make their own decision that is best for them. So, that was life-changing for me, both in my parenting and in my work. So, that's one of the things I thought, how can we teach that at scale to people? What can we do that we can take these things that aren't just about building a business, they're about building a person? And that was one element of it. Another element, something I've learned over time, and I think we all know this, that it was one of the neuroscientists, I can't remember his name. He said that humans are feeling machines, not thinking machines. And we all think we're rational, that that's what drives our behavior. And that's not true. It's all our emotions. But we're also in this world not trained to access our emotions. Right. We're not trained to say, wow, that feels my stomach. That makes my solar plexus, my gut churn. Wow, I feel my body going like this. What am I feeling in here? I'm feeling protective. Why am I feeling protective? And having that inquiry into what that means and how it's driving your behavior. So that is something that is also part of the Better Leader Project is teaching people they have to lead with their feelings. And it's a practice, which is why you're in a small group and you stay in that small group for a period of time. The beta tests that I've done so far are 6 months and you stay with that group. And it is not a friendship group and it's not a loosey-goosey conversation. It is very structured and it is facilitated and it is designed to teach people emotional access and then practicing the skills that they learn through that emotional access. So practicing vulnerability, Empathy, access to your emotions in a community. Because the only way that you can imprint upon yourself new behaviors is experiential learning and experiencing practice. And I think we all can read a book about vulnerability. Brené Brown has some wonderful books on that. But actually practicing vulnerability and being seen in that process and seeing others in that process, that is the only way you learn that it's actually a strength. If you just read about it, you're like, I am not going to go open my kimono to anybody. But then when you do it in the safety of a small community where there is psychological safety, you're like, oh, look at that. I'm not the only one who feels that way. They understood exactly where I was coming from and it deepened our relationship. But you have to practice that. You can't just read about it.

Yeah.

So, that's the whole nascent idea that started with the Better Leader Project. I mean, that the Better Leader Project grew out of.

I love that. For the people tuning in, if this is really resonating with them, how can they get in touch with you to learn more about the Better Leader Project and/or if they need your counsel?

They can go to christypretzinger.com. And I'm in the process actually, as of this week, of putting on that website. There's information about the Better Leader Project. And then, there will also be a form on there where people can say, keep me informed. Let me know. Because right now what I'm doing is because I'm targeting Gen Z, I'm working with a couple universities locally with their recent graduates as well as their seniors to talk to them about what this program should be. It's what they call a FUBU, for us, by us. So learning from them, what is it that they want? I think I have a general idea, but it always is good to go to the source. So I'm working with them to fine-tune the curriculum, the cadence, the cost, the platform that we'll use. All of that. So, that's going to be starting in January actually because I'm actually working finding the people, actually interviewing people and selecting who will participate in that. So, I'd love to have people say, keep me informed. Let me know. And we'll make sure we do that. So, christipretzinger.com is the best place.

Terrific! You know, as you were saying that, I was thinking it's great that you're working with the Gen Zs, with the new generation of leaders coming in. But you're teaching them, or and you are teaching them the skills that they need to become and bring their more authentic selves to the forefront. As these people move into kind of the workforce or into a culture, how do we ensure that the leaders embrace these kinds of qualities so that as soon as they finish going through the Better Leader Project, they go into the So, not automatically just stomp down and say, well, that's not what we do here.

That is a great likelihood of happening. One of the reasons that I am targeting directly to Gen Z and not to corporations because I do not want to go through the HR portal because of exactly that. So, and that is entirely possible. One of the things that I talk about a lot in teaching this and in the beta tests that we've done with the groups is that you have to learn how to hone your own spidey sense. So, when it comes to something, for example, like vulnerability in an organization, let's say you work in a large organization but you have a team, even just a team of 2 or 3 people. You have to discern whether or not it is safe to be vulnerable up. It may be. It may not be. But you have to discern that. You can test that. There are little things you can do. But you have to discern that. But the thing you do control is you can be vulnerable out and down. So, you can be vulnerable with your peers and you can be vulnerable with your team. And that sets the tone for that. So, while we all know about managing up, that's way too much for this conversation and that's not my expertise anyway. But outside of that, really focusing on what you can control, the environment that you create that surrounds you, and understanding that there's going to be— not everybody's going to jump on that bandwagon.

Right.

And in fact, a lot of people are going to roll their eyes at you. And act like you're soft or think that kindness is weakness. And those are things that, again, those aren't the people, those aren't the target for it. And that's not the world that we're building. My intention is to actually create a movement where people understand that kindness is actually strength, just as vulnerability is. That kindness is boundaries. Kindness is clarity. Kindness is empathy. All of these things that that enrich our lives as human beings. And we really need to get back to that and foster that sense of community through all of those skills.

I love that. In your notes, you wrote something about the Better Quotient, the BQ.

Yeah.

How does that play into what we're talking about? What does it mean in practice?

So, as I was working on the book and I was thinking about the Better Leader Project, I was thinking about IQ and EQ and the difference between them. And I was like, well, what about BQ? We all have a better quotient, our capacity to become better. Everyone has it. Now, not everyone will access it. Some people already think they are as good as they're ever going to be or better than everyone already. And that's fine. They're not the target, right? But the better quotient is really kind of a growth mindset and a lifelong learning. aspect to your work and to your humanity, to who you're going to be. So, that's kind of what that grew out of. And so, when I talk about— I actually have a speech that I give on that topic. And what I talk about is I explain so people can understand it. I explain what BQ is in context of EQ. So, EQ is more like a psychological foundation for recognizing, naming emotions, and Responding to those of your own and others appropriately. So that's what that's about. BQ is taking it a step further. And actually, I've categorized it into basically 3 things building on EQ. The first thing is that you have the first step, one is to pause and notice. So the first thing of like, you've got EQ, you've noticed something's happening, pause and notice. That's your EQ. The next one is to actually anchor in your why. That's your BQ. So, okay, you've paused. You've noticed something's happening here. Maybe the conversation with an employee is becoming a little tense. So, if you can pause and notice, and of course, this happens quickly, but pause and notice and then anchor in your why by saying, what am I trying to do here? What's important? Is it important that I preserve trust in this relationship? Is it important that I'm setting an example for people on the team? Is this happening in a group? So you have to kind of process that and you have to know your values in order to know your why. And then the final step of the BQ process is to make the better choice. So once you've paused and noticed, you've anchored in your why, then you choose, very consciously choose your behavior. It's about conscious integrity.

I love that. And so, I mean, my next question was going to be, what do people need to do? People who are tuning in need to do to start adopting kind of this framework of being better. And you've just laid it all out in 3 steps.

Yeah, it's pretty simple. None of these things are new. They're not rocket science. I mean, I think it was Viktor Frankl is the one who said, between stimulus and response, there's a space. And Stephen Covey talks about in that space, in the action we choose to take lies our destiny. So, these are things that have been around for a long time. I just kind of crystallize it into something that like, okay, this is your BQ. I have a capacity to become better. Do that. What are the steps I can take to actually make that a practice in my life?

In simple terms, based on everything that we've talked about today, What capacity do leaders need to have right now to build and develop to achieve the goals that we're trying to develop with the Gen Zs to number one, make them better leaders. But number two, give them the impetus to want to step up to become better leaders. What capacity do leaders need to develop right now?

Well, I think the leaders who are probably, in some ways, probably a different generation than Gen Z, but there are already Gen Z leaders as well, is really, I think the biggest thing is an open-mindedness and an understanding of people think differently than you do. And it's okay. Really, I remember once I met a former president and my son asked him at the time, do you have any advice for a 14-year-old? That's how old he was at the time. the time. And he said, I do. And he said, do whatever you want in your life, but seek out people who are different than you. And I thought that was incredibly wise. No matter what you do, understanding that we see from where we stand, and where I stand is very different than from where you stand. And so, we have very different perspectives, both of which are valid. I think that is key to any kind of understanding and furthering of any kind of relationship with coworkers, with employees, with team members, with peers, with With anybody really.

Political systems.

Yeah, well, you're going to be our 51st state, Marc. So, get excited about that.

Bite your tongue. But it's right. But I mean, if we apply these values and the goal and the means to be kind enough to want to understand, then we start knocking down some of these barriers, don't we? I mean, we have so much. We have so many different things trying to separate us and trying to push us into our corner. It's about time that we start and say, hey, tell me what your fears are. Tell me what you're scared of. What is your big fear? What's got you going? How come this is such a big thing for you? Right? And being able to be curious enough to ask those questions.

Absolutely. And I think that the divisiveness pays, right? I mean, look, follow the money. You know, it used to be on algorithms that sex sells. Not anymore. It's rage. You know, it's actually rage that sells. And people benefit from dividing us. And we are not really that divided. You know, I always say that if your neighbor's house burns down, you don't ask them who they voted for. You're like, where's your dog? Are your kids okay? What, you know, that's who we are. That's what we actually do. And the people that benefit from our divisiveness They profit from it literally with money, but also by power.

Sure.

And so, that's what motivated me. That's the impetus for wanting to create a movement. I'm happy to be the face of it. I do not think I'll be the end of it because I want the younger generation to stand on my shoulders and see further than I do and get us back to that humanity. That is the way we will survive. And come on, with AI, we are bound and determined to annihilate ourselves. But I still think that But the thing about us that will survive is we have a soul and we have a conscience. Each one of us does. And we have that need to connect and to be part of a community. And that is really what will help us go forward, hopefully, if we survive.

Well, you know, and for anybody who might think, oh, that's a lot of woo-woo, that's not true. No, no, we good, you bad. Watch any sports arenas. Like, I was so blown away when our Oilers were in the playoffs and we had people inside the arena. We had people in front of the arena and this big massive gathering like 2,000-3,000 people just partying just in this. And I thought, this is what being human is. It's not the divisiveness. It's coming together and celebrating common Human experiences, right?

You know, I'll tell you that the best experience of that, and this is going to sound funny because I'm an elder Swiftie, but I went to a Taylor Swift concert when she was on the Eras Tour, and it was 70,000 people in an arena. I have never felt safer than in that arena. I could have given a stranger and said, hold my purse, and they'd be like, got you. You know, because the thing was that through, you know, through music, through art, through shared experiences, then you can— it's a collective. And that is where I say the sum— if the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right? Each one of those individuals that went to those concerts were individuals, hopes, dreams. Everybody voted differently. Everybody has different things they care about, different religions, different— all the different things. But you came there and you're like, our humanity is actually reverberating Throughout this place now, we are vibrating at the same level and creating an atmosphere of joy. And I think that's what we are truly capable of doing.

Absolutely. And we just need to find more catalysts for that. We need to find the catalyst for that inside our own organizations too, don't we?

Yes, absolutely. Somebody needs to step into that void and be the person that wants to— I know it probably doesn't sound great, but I do talk about joy at work. I also talk about love. At work, that both are important. That you spend more time at work than you do just about anywhere else. It's a good place to love the people you work with because love actually means wishing the best for someone else. That is a definition of love. And I genuinely wish the best for all of the people that work in my organizations. And therefore, I love them. And I want them to have joy in the work that they do. It's not always fun, but hopefully, you can find moments of joy. in there. And at the end of the day, have more joy than not. Right.

Hey, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls. My biggest fear whenever I do these episodes is that you have some leader coming out going, oh, that sounds like such a good idea. And then, it becomes like the policy of the month. And so, I'm going to talk about some cautionaries and pitfalls as people want to make the change and start adopting maybe a new way of thinking. And we'll get to that right after this.

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We are having a fabulous, phenomenal discussion. I hope you're getting plenty of value from it. As you can tell, Kristi and I are super focused on serving you and your team. So, if you're planning a leadership retreat or a conference, or you'd like to explore how we can be a benefit to you and your organization, drop us a line. Our contact details are in the show notes. Kristi, based on our conversation today, it's really clear to me that if Gen Z employees are disengaging, resisting promotions, or showing signs of burnout, it's no longer a motivational issue. It's more of a what? A model issue? A business?

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know about a business model because there's a million different business models, all of which probably have pros and cons. But I think that if you have Gen Z employees who are not engaged, then you're probably not— if you have any employees who aren't engaged, you're not doing something to engage them. And largely what that is, what I said earlier, you're not looking at what matters to them. You have to know what matters to them. And that spans generations. So, looking at that and seeing and having an understanding of what that individual is looking for, what's important to them. As I said earlier, One employee we have wants to keep being an individual contributor. She is extremely skilled in that area and has no interest in moving into a management role. Well, that's important to know. I know that matters to her. And then, that helps to keep her engaged and make sure that you keep giving people meaningful work to do. In terms of business structure, I don't know that that matters. I think what really matters is you as the individual. And if you have any Authority or impact on a team of people. Even if you don't have direct reports, people are always watching you. You can be the person in the peer who sets that tone and creates the tone for the group of people that you work with. You can absolutely do that. We all know how that works, right? That one bad apple spoils the bunch. That's a saying on purpose. Because if somebody is sour-tempered all the time, it kind of can Poison the well. If you have an employee who's constantly going to all the peers and complaining about things, it starts making other people think, well, I guess I think that's bad too. So, you have to make sure that you understand those things. You see those things. And as a leader, if you see those things on your team, you need to nip that in the bud and address that and understand why are you doing that? What's not being met here that you're doing this? Right.

It's so interesting. So, as we've talked about a lot of things and I personally, I find this conversation hugely valuable in bringing the idea to the forefront. People tuning in for it, they're probably nodding along with us because it makes perfect sense. What are some of the cautionaries and pitfalls people should be aware of as they want to kind of shift their cultural behavior, cultural mindset model, whatever that I think that it's very easy to look out there instead of in here.

And leadership begins from within. It starts inside out. It starts with self-awareness. So, you need to understand your patterns, your triggers, your values. And that is foundational to effective leadership. I always feel like I have to throw in the caveat here where we could all name without even thinking about it, many leaders who are incredibly wealthy and have the self-awareness of a doorknob. So, that is Right. Something that can happen. However, for those of us who want to feed into the lives of people, for me, it's part of the legacy I want to leave. It's part of what makes my life worth living is feeding into the lives of other people. And so, for me, I have to dig into my own behaviors and recognize the impact that those behaviors have on the people that I lead. I would say that if you don't have that, it's going to be really challenging to build a cohesive team that is engaged and loyal and committed. I think that's one of the big ones. I think another one that I think is really interesting, that's very simple and that I think can be lost is that trust is a long game. Meaning that I have a lot of employees, people on my leadership team. I think everyone has been with us for 10 years or so. So, there's trust built there. But I had a recent situation with one of— we were in a leadership team meeting and one of the team members said something that kind of took me Off guard and I shut her down inappropriately, by the way. It was not— that was not a good thing. And fortunately, we spoke the next day and I was able to settle that and apologize and say, I was completely wrong. I'm sorry that caught me off guard and that was inappropriate. And I was able to say that also in front of the team another time because I wanted them to know that wasn't right. I expect counsel from all of you. I need counsel from all of you. So, when you come up with an idea or something, the last thing I need to do is shut it down. But we do that. It happens. It's a response. We have these things. I think the important thing is to recognize that situation. And for example, I have a lot of trust with that person and we are friends and I care deeply about her. And that trust is important to me. And fortunately, because we were able to talk about it, that long game, that trust is preserved. It took a while to build that with her. When she first joined the organization, she was like, yeah, right. I don't know that you really mean what you say. But over time, she believed it. She's seen it. She knows that I say what I mean and I mean what I say. And so, preserving that trust is important and understanding that you can lose it in an instant. If I would not have addressed that with her and acknowledged that I was wrong and she was right, that could have blown that right there. So, that's another big one.

It's so interesting because we see managers do this all the time, right? They talk one game. They try to hold it. But then, when crisis hits, they just revert back to their bad behavior.

Yes, absolutely. Well, it's sort of like we talked about with training that you change for a minute and then you just revert back to your old habits because it's like comfortable shoes. I think that the other thing about all of these things, self-awareness, about the trust, and all the different things we're talking about is that you have to have the intention to be a better leader, to be better, to access your capacity to be better. You have to have the intention to do it. But then, you have to pay attention to the behaviors that go along to fulfilling that intention. Because if you just have the intention, it may or may not happen. It depends. But if you're like, okay, I need to work on my vulnerability. My intention is to lead with vulnerability. Well then, I need to pay attention to exhibiting vulnerability in leadership positions. And you have to— that's a give and take. And both of those things are important. If you don't have either one of them, you're probably not going to be very successful in the first one of developing your self-awareness and the skills associated with that.

Is it fair to say that when you make these decisions to do something like this, that you need to find some sort of a testing mechanism, something to push against to test out your true north as it were?

Yeah, I think that's always a good idea to have something. I think in this one, unlike EQ, which is like I said, psychological and there are some real measurements With BQ and with like the better leader becoming a better person, it's a little more subjective. It's a little more existential to see. But I think that one of the ways that you can see is the commitment, the engagement, the loyalty, the relationships that you have built with team members. That's a big one. We have incredibly low turnover at my organization. And like I said, everybody on the leadership team has been with the team for I think more than 10 years. I think the longest is 14 years.

Wow!

And all of them want to retire from the organization. So, that tells me that there is something here that is worthy of their engagement. And I want to make sure that I as a leader do all I can to continue to earn that loyalty and that commitment.

That works as long as they don't want to retire tomorrow.

True.

This has been such a great conversation, Kristi. Do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Oh, you know, really just, I hope that, that, you know, through our conversation here that people can see that we are more alike than we are different. And don't buy into the rage baiting. You know, don't remember that, that we are more similar than we are different. We have commonalities through our humanity. And that's actually what forges the healthy relationships that enrich our lives. Right.

Could you remind everybody one more time how to get ahold of you?

christipretzinger.com is the easiest place right there. You can find everything you need all about me.

Terrific! Christy, thank you so much for being on the show today. It's been brilliant.

Thank you so much for having me, Marc. I've really enjoyed it.

It's been a ball. Hey, why don't you let me know if this was of value to you? As always, my offer stands. If you would like 30 minutes of my time with you and your team, feel free to book a time on my calendar. The link is down below. It's the one That's marcmeetwith.marchaine.com. It'd be my honor to be of service to you to help make your teams better and to help brainstorm whatever solutions you're looking for. Why don't you leave a comment or review about this episode if you enjoyed it? I'd love to get your feedback. Was this of value to you? What nuggets did you take away? And of course, while you're at it, why don't you make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to the podcast? This has been a really great time being here with you today. It's been my service. It's been my passion to bring this content to you. And I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you very much for joining me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception. Bye for now!