Why Hard Work Won’t Scale Your Business: The Mindset Shift You Need

As a business leader, do you feel stuck in the weeds, overwhelmed by daily operations and unable to break through to the next level? You've built something great. You've hustled. You've sacrificed. And you've poured everything into making your business a success. But now, you're stuck. Growth has stalled. Your team is relying on you for every single decision. And no matter how many hours you put in, You just can't seem to move the needle. Does that sound familiar? Because that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to help them create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And today, my guest is trusted advisor Peter Kovacs. And today, we're going to be diving into the critical mindset shifts that really separates struggling business operators into thriving leaders. If you've ever felt stuck in the daily grind, unsure of how to scale, or trapped by the very business that you built, This episode is for you. So, stay with us. But before we get into today's topic, I have one question. Have you subscribed to this show yet?

Have you?

Because we have a ton of people who watch it but we only have about 1,300 subscribers. So, I'd love it if you would subscribe. I'd love to get to 5,000 subscribers and you could be part of that. And it doesn't cost you anything. Nothing. Zippo. I have to tell you, I've been there right where you are. Building a business with hustle, hard work, and determination, you kind of wear every single hat solving every single problem. And you put in the long hours to make the business a success. But at some point, you start to feel trapped in the day-to-day. And instead of leading, you're constantly just firefighting. You're handing decisions And handling all the decisions that your team should be making, solving problems that shouldn't exist, and wondering why the dream of running your own business feels more like the never-ending grind. And that brings me to our Question of the Day. So, I have to This might sound like a dumb question. Are you leading your business or is the business leading you? It's a very simple question. One way to test that is to figure out, are you working in your business or are you working on your business? I'd love for you to share your experience. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and be part of this conversation. It'd be great to have you and your comments. You know, my guest today is somebody who knows exactly what it takes to build, scale, and exit a business. And more importantly, what it takes to really step into the kind of leadership that makes it all possible. Peter Kovacs is a serial entrepreneur, an exited founder, and executive coach who's helped business owners break free from the daily grind and become the leaders that their companies actually need in order to grow. And over the last 15 years, he's built a solid Built and sold companies, learned from failures, and experienced firsthand the identity crisis that so many founders face when scaling their businesses. He's been where you are. And today, he leads the San Francisco chapter of the world's largest community of post-exit founders, coaching high-level leaders on how to navigate their biggest shift in their careers going from hustler to CEO. But Peter's insight goes far beyond business. Having grown up in Hungary, And moved to Canada. We were just talking before the show. He actually moved to my hometown, which was Montreal. And then, he moved to California. He brings a global perspective to leadership, helping founders and executives across borders navigate challenges of growth, mindset, and transformation. Peter, welcome to the show! I am so excited you're here.

Thank you very much. And the fact that we are fellow Canadians, that is the nice extra.

It is. It's a big bonus. It's absolutely— hey Peter, before we get into the topic today, can you tell us a little bit about who your customers are and how do you serve them?

Yeah, I work with people who have a track record of success. So, whether it is building businesses or corporate career. And they get to this point where they're stuck. trying to figure out what's next, how to raise to the next level. But also sometimes it's a crossroads. Do I continue in the corporate world? Do I become an entrepreneur? Often the question of having more meaning, purpose, and fulfillment also comes up. So, I'm just an ally on this journey.

Yeah, I love that. I mean, so many businesses, business owners work in their business instead of on it. It's somebody In 5 years of doing this podcast, that's the one kind of central theme of who we target is all these people with their heads down. They're so busy working in the business, not working on it. Why do you think so many business leaders get trapped in this cycle?

Sometimes, they don't know any better because the examples they've seen around is similar. But also, when you start, You need to be a certain kind of leader. In the beginning, yes, you have to work in the business. But as things evolve, as the business grows, they don't evolve. So they become the solution to a problem that no longer exists. They still act as if it was the early days when they had to hustle long hours, but that has changed, but they haven't evolved. And so often they are stuck and some people don't realize that this is happening, blind spots. That's why you have people outside like myself who can point out these things to help them get unstuck and create that life that they can love doing powerful work.

And so, I mean, obviously, this is a huge blind spot when people kind of evolve where their business has evolved. They're succeeding in it. But they haven't figured out that the business has succeeded not because they put in all that hustle necessarily. But because they've evolved the business. But they haven't evolved themselves. So, when you see these leaders stuck in hustle mode instead Instead of stepping into real leadership? What are some indicators that somebody might be stuck?

Generally, when you can tell that something is missing, that's a sign that you should start maybe looking. And then, it becomes maybe the beginning of a quest to answer a question, which is maybe what else is there to life? That was my question. And so, that's the beginning. And then, You start on the journey and there are several options. What's helpful perhaps is to ask yourself, what would you like instead? Where would you like to end up even if today you don't know even if it's possible? But start with the end in mind.

Is it fair to say that if somebody starts questioning why the heck they're doing what they're doing and they're having maybe troubles at home because they don't have work-life balance and they're Getting up every morning stressed, going to work stressed, coming home stressed. I mean, would those be the early warning symptoms that they need to be really sensitive to?

Yeah, it could be from any side. It could be at home. People who they care about are giving them signals, complaining perhaps that something is out of balance. Also, sometimes it's peers from maybe other fellow business owners or leaders who might be pointing out things that are maybe not ideal, but sometimes they're realizing that, oh, it's not the way maybe it's supposed to be. So for me, one of the things that had me realize that that was not where I— that was best for me is another entrepreneur's Twitter profile. And it said, living the dream. And we were in a similar situation, but where I was, it did not feel like living the dream. So sometimes it's the tiniest, tiniest thing, but what matters is that you start waking up. You start realizing that something might need to change. And then, you go to try to find out what is the truth. Maybe nothing needs to change, but at least you go out and verify that. Often, you find that there is something to change. And then, you can gather your allies, start having conversations with interesting people. And at least, you have started on that journey.

Yeah. It's so interesting because as a hospitality professional, my role usually goes into— I get calls from hotels operators who complain that they, we've been doing the same thing for 20 years. And now, there's more competition in our marketplace. And now, we're just not doing. But I don't know what I'm doing wrong and I need your help. And that's kind of like one of the telltales. And what I find really interesting about that is a lot of times, I find that the business is still okay. But it's being held back. And I remember telling one hotel owner, I said, you're a You're really an anchor to this business. And she puffed up and she goes, oh, thank you. I said, no, no, you don't understand. With all your systems and stuff, you're holding the business back. So, are there any indications, any warning signs that a business owner may become the bottleneck to their own company's growth?

One of them, maybe simplest is They're busy. They're not supposed to be busy. Because if they're a true ruler, not just managers, then they will have hired the right people, built the right team, the right culture, so that all the elements that are simply management things where you don't have to reinvent the wheel, and I call this being on a path. So going from point A to point B, if you know where both points are, It's just project management. You have choices every day and you want to get there as efficiently as possible. But there's some elements in the business when you are starting from point A and all you have is a direction. You want to maybe make a great business, but what does it look like? You don't have all the detailed answers. This is what I call being on a quest. So you're experimenting. You don't know what the next steps are. And one of the important details, important skills perhaps, is to give up the need to know.

Yeah.

If you're doing something that has never been done before, don't try to go find a roadmap somewhere to try to make it because it doesn't exist. So now if you face the unknown, take a group of people to create something better than has been done before, that's what a leader does. So if you're still very busy, especially at a business that's not very new, there's a problem. Now one of the problems is people have a lot of beliefs Limiting beliefs or just beliefs about how things should be. Some people believe that to be a CEO or a leader, you have to be busy. That's just a belief and it doesn't have to be true.

Well, I mean, there's to your point, there's— sorry, to your point, I do see lots of entrepreneurs believe certain things. Like for instance, nobody's going to care about my business like I do, right? And/or those belief systems like I remember doing a property profile for an owner-operator. And she was so frustrated by the time she called me. And she says, you know what? If I'm not here, nothing gets done. Right? Which of course, just for me raises red flags all the time because here's an owner-operator who feels that if they're not actually there doing the work, that nothing is going to get done. And they feel that their control is what makes the difference between success or failure.

Very good example. And in this case, it's how do you know if it's true? And to find that answer, you go on a quest. Maybe there's, what does the team need to look like? What does the culture need to look like? All these things just to find out, well, is it true that nothing gets done? And often when they start to actually question this assumption and to start experimenting, doing the work, they usually realize like, oh, there's a better way.

Do you see any kind of pattern where businesses do have success, but that actually makes it really hard for them to change?

That can be also part of another belief is that, oh, we got this far, this worked. Therefore, this is how you get to the next level. But as the common adage goes, what got you here won't get you there. So, sometimes early success, even when I work with repeat founders, They got to a certain point and they believe that, oh, they need to do the same thing. Or another insidious belief is to be meaningful, it has to be big. For them, especially post-exit, life has changed. It's not about proving yourself or to the VCs, but coming back to most business owners is just about finding out like what else is possible, challenging these beliefs and just experimenting. And knowing that there's no failure. It's either you learn something or you succeed.

I want to just delve a little bit deeper into the phrase that you use that if what got you here is not going to get you further. Talk a little bit about that because when I talk to business owners, they say things like, we've been doing like this for 5 years. Nothing's changed. I don't understand why we're not being successful anymore. So, can we talk a little bit about this mindset of What got you here is not what's going to get you forward.

Yeah. So, first of all, a lot of people talk about what you did got you here and what you— it won't get you there. But I would take it 2 levels deeper. So, you can solve any problem on one of 3 levels. Change what you do. If that's not enough, change how you think. And if that's not enough, change who you're being. And this is the profound, deeper level that I like to work on because I think it's more valuable. So it's actually who you are being that got you here. Who do you need to become? What kind of leader you need to become that will get you there? And so get some clarity on what you need to become and then start on that journey. And then in the beginning, every step, every action you take, it's a vote for who you need to become. So maybe that future version, you see it as this super CEO or whatever. If you have a question or an action to take, you can ask yourself, what would the super CEO do? And that can be the beginning of more profound change.

I find it's interesting when you say that because I do find that when people are in that nose-to-the-grindstone mode, that they can't think themselves out of their situation. They will compare themselves to other people who have But then, they come up with excuses as to why that's happened. Well, it's great for Dave to be able to do that. But Dave's got a really good team of people. And he gets really— because he pays a little bit more, he gets better people. And the people who he has, whereas we're stuck with the people we have. And they start blaming all sorts of stuff. It's like, oh well, you know what? He's in a different market. He's not in the same market as I am. He's in that industry. But you know what? Because I'm on this street corner, he doesn't have the same problem I do. All these different kinds of blame tactics to justify where they're stuck. And so, for those people who are tuning in, like how do we shake that mind? How do we grab them and go, and start having them realize with humility that part of the problem is where they stand?

So the question I like to ask is, how did you create this? Also, why don't you have it? So before I start to work with somebody, I would first coach them. And after we talk about what the current challenge is, what they would like instead, what is the ideal outcome, and ask them, why don't you have it already? I like to ask the question, how have you created, enabled, or encouraged this situation? And then I see what the answers are. When they are not on the list, I tell them something is missing. Usually they realize that, oh yeah, and they take ownership with humility of what they've done. But some people don't. And for me, one of my criteria of who I choose to work with is coachability. And that's how I test for that. But I think this question should always be the first question of how have I created that?

Yeah.

What's my role in this? What's my role in this situation? If you have people who can't be trusted or don't take initiative, what was my role in making that happen? It does take quite a lot of humility for somebody to stop themselves, especially if they've been so used to being in control for so long. That humility piece I think is one of the pieces that I think people struggle with quite often.

Yeah. And People who don't have that, maybe that's part of that future version that needs to be there. So sometimes it's like, how can I approach this situation with more humility?

Yeah.

So the way I look at this, figuring out who they need to become, is I have a conversation with my clients around who they are being right now, how are they showing up, the good but also the bad. So in different situations, let's say they scream at employees. Well, who are you being in that moment? So we collect the good and the bad and we talk about, well, who is this person? You know, just in a few words. And then who's the future version? Some of the things they might want to keep from the current, but also they know that those different elements where they need to be maybe more patient, maybe more—

Right.

And then we bring it down to a few words, a shorter maybe title or name, and we test it. Does it resonate with them? If it does, then we are onto something. And then, they're gonna begin by becoming that person one action at a time.

I love that. Hey, when we come back, I'd like to talk about some actionable strategies that the people tuning in can take to really shake up their world in a positive way so that they can get past the sticking point. And we'll get to that right after this.

When the spotlight shines on your business, are customers applauding or yawning? In other words, how is your business performing? Make your business a star Welcome back! I am speaking with trusted Thinking Partner, Peter Kovacs.

Peter, how do we turn incidental leaders into great business managers? So, incidental leaders are the people I believe, the people who were high performers and they get promoted and they're given no leadership training. They're entrepreneurs who think, I am so tired of working for somebody else. I'm going to work for myself. And so, they open up their own shop or they open up their own business. But they have no training in things like HR, marketing and finance and all that sort of stuff. And they've never been really trained to be leaders. So, how do we turn those incidental leaders into great business managers?

Okay. So, these are people that are in your business you're talking about, right?

Well, they could be people who got promoted because they were great performers. And they're managers who are just trying their very best. The skills that got them to the promotion isn't the skills that's going to keep them as leaders because The job description is different. The skill sets are different. But then, you also have people who are really good. What Michael Gerber calls in E-Myth, he calls them transactional or anyway, it's people who are, they do the work. And now, they go from having to do the work to becoming a leader. But they can't really shake the doing the work part.

Okay.

So the best way to support them is— so there's 2 levels. There's the skills. When I, for example, want to learn something, I find a mentor. So finding people who can be really supporting them, sometimes it's a training program, that's great. But that's in the doing part. Now on their thinking and the being part, they may need other kind of support. So get a coach or sometimes it's have a therapist as well. So, there's different— basically, find the support group that they can have so they can grow in all the levels they need to grow.

Right. And of course, we have in Canada, we have Tech Canada. In the States, we have Vistage, which are like peer CEO groups, right? Which is a great starting point if you don't want to go out and actually find yourself a mentor. Getting involved in kind of these peer mentor groups. is a really great start. You have a theory about this idea of creating from your own essence. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah. So, one of the core philosophies of my work is that we all have a natural way of being in the world that one, adds value. But also second, is effortless. These are the things that We often take for granted because it comes so effortlessly. Clues for this is when people keep telling you that you're really good at something and you keep discarding it, saying, oh no, no, anybody can do this. Oh, this is not a big deal. But these are things that are actually really good. And when you find a form, maybe a way of leading, a way, a kind of business you want to create that is congruent with your essence, That's when things are easier. You are values-aligned. You are in flow. It's, you're in the zone much easier. And so a lot of people think about, oh, follow your passions or whatnot. Maybe you are passionate about something, but you're not good at it. But when you come from your essence, that's actually— you can discover things that you never considered as something that you could be good at. And so part of my work is to be an ally on this journey of Hey, listening out for expressions of the essence of the client so they can hone in on that. Like in my case, I'm a coach. I'm passionate about coaching. But that's not my essence. But it's a form that is congruent with my essence.

Love that. I love that. And so, how does one uncover that? Like obviously, when people enjoy what they're doing, it does feel seamless. Is that their essence? Or is there a way to explore if they have like a wider or deeper essence?

Yeah. So, there are a couple of things they can think about. First of all, they can look at what is the common thread that connects all the different experiences that they've had. When they were at their best, who were they being? They can also talk to their friends, colleagues, other people they work with. And just be curious about, well, why do they come to you for? What would be missing if you're not there? Now, the essence is something that's kind of elusive. So it's not something that you can have like an essence statement. You shouldn't try to do that. Also go way back, like even as a child, like what are your earliest memories? What are the different things that brought you joy or what made you cry then? What makes you cry now? There's an exercise that I do with teams to to get to know themselves and each other. So maybe we can include that in the show notes. But it's a journey of reflection of what are these different data points that come up. And that plus a bit of reflection can be a really fun experience. The exercise that I offer has this drawing part where people draw a self-portrait based on their essence.

Mm-hmm.

And so that can be a fun exercise. If you're not artistic, don't worry about it. It's not that kind of exercise. But that can be really fun.

Yeah, I do know that the biggest obstacle I think to change is fear of failure. I talk a lot about leaders having to endorse their team members to fail forward, to look at being able to paint a picture and have a safe environment where people can try things and fail without getting pulled into the office and then reamed for everything. Is it fair to say that failure is a natural handicap for most leaders? But that failure is necessary if they want to evolve?

I would say the fear of failure is the handicap which holds them back. And in terms of limiting beliefs, there's a model that involves a bottle. Maybe we can also perhaps include that in the show notes, which is an elegant way of Helping people see, understand what beliefs are and how to get past them. Now, failure is one of the ones where people fear failure. And if they identify it as a failure and it happens a lot, then they start to believe that they are a failure. That becomes an identity. And then why would you keep trying? But I like to reframe that as a lesson. Some lessons are painful. Yes, some are expensive. Some are both. But what did you learn? And so the other piece here is I teach my clients how to think really small in terms of experiments and not focus on the output, but the input. So what is something that is so small and tiny that one, you know what to do because it's so small and it's safe, but also it's also kind of big or relatively big because it's meaningful, or rather it goes in the right direction. And so when you can break things down too small, that any one experiment is so small that you're not intimidated, you're not procrastinating, and the risk is minimal. You can still move forward. And each time, you learn or you succeed. So, you can adjust course before there's like a big loss of money or business or whatnot.

It is a huge mental shift though to go from this thing where, well, let's try something. Let's expect that we might fail in some aspect. But let's be ready for that so that we don't lose our shirt, or we don't lose customers, or we don't lose what's important to us. But being able to get into that mindset where it's like, yeah, we need to change something. So, let's try something and then let's learn from whatever failure we kind of experience. Is that fair?

Yeah. And one question that I like to ask is, okay, what is— if it doesn't work out, what would that mean? And sometimes, they have these old stories about, oh, I'm this, I'm bad, or whatever. But I have them reframe. Is that maybe it doesn't mean anything. Like if somebody, if they ask a good question, if somebody, their reaction is that the other person is, let's say, angry, well, maybe it means nothing about them. It means that the other one is having a bad day. Or if they make a bold bet and it doesn't work out, well, what that might mean instead of saying, oh well, they lost, it might mean that they were bold enough to try.

Yes.

And so that reframing can be very helpful. So that they see it as a more positive light and they feel empowered and maybe excited to try something again. I love that.

Hey, for people tuning in who this might be resonating with, could you let them know how they can get in touch with you if they want to reach out to you and work with you?

Yeah, they can find me on LinkedIn. We can— I can give my email address and web link in the show notes.

Perfect.

So they can reach out.

Yeah. And so your website, is it peterkovacs.com?

No, it's cqsavvy.com.

So perfect.

Yeah, cqsavvy.com.

Okay, and it will be in the show notes. It's just nice to have it on record for the video. So hey, I do know that one of the challenges that I see a lot in business, and in fact, I had a coaching session with an entrepreneur last night and he was really challenged with trying to make a move. And it was almost like he felt he didn't deserve it. Imposter syndrome is something that even the most successful leaders have to deal with. How can they reframe it into something that's going to be useful instead of something that's going to hold them back, delay moving, delay decisions? What can they do to shake that?

Yeah, so I have maybe a different perspective on imposter syndrome. So the way I look at it, there's 2 sides. On one side, you have your identity. These are the beliefs that you have about yourself. And on the other side, you have your capabilities, what you can actually do. And for most well-adjusted people, your capabilities grow faster than your identity, which means that you don't realize how good you are. And that difference, that delta, that's the imposter syndrome. And then you may feel like you don't deserve. And The way I look at it is if you have the imposter syndrome, it's actually a good sign. It means that you're playing a big enough game. But the other thing is that word deserve has another smaller word in it, serve.

Serve.

So if you focus on serving, the focus is not inside the little voice, but it's forward serving the person that's in front of you. And when you do that, the little voice might be there in terms of In my case, sometimes I coach people who are much smarter and much more successful than I am. And the little voice is telling me, Peter, who do you think you are coaching this person? And I just focus on serving them. And by now I know that the little voice will fade away eventually. It never fully goes away, but that's not the point. The other thing is also a choice. You have some even actors who make $20 million per movie and they still have stage fright, but they have a choice. Do they give up and not have the stage fright? But they're not that kind of person. Or they focus on serving the audience, maybe entertaining, inspiring millions of kids. And they just go with it anyway. So, next time you feel the imposter syndrome, I would say look at it as a good sign, meaning you are playing a big enough game.

It's interesting. I was just talking with some speakers and we were talking about the difference between wanting to impress people and wanting to serve people. And it's funny because when you're a speaker or an actor, you're up on stage. You want to shine. You want people to know your brilliance and so on. But there becomes an inherent difference in how we show up when we're trying to impress people and trying to make a name for ourselves versus if we're there to make absolutely sure we're providing the value and we're there to serve. Would you say the same thing is akin in leadership?

Yeah. Once you hone in, once you get past some of the barriers and the baggage that may be holding you back, as maybe beliefs that you're supposed to look good. In some cultures, some of the ideas about leadership is, are you supposed to know the answers? But that's a different standard. But for us here, perhaps, once you get past that, once you really hone into service, it actually feels easier because then you're not worried about how things come apart. come across. And you also know that if you make a mistake, you are so vulnerable and open and you all grow. But for these barriers of maybe that can hold them back, maybe one thing that could be helpful is starting with the end in mind, not recreating the past, which is not doing what you already know how to do, levels of impact or performance you already know how to do, but where would you like to end up, even if you don't know if it's possible. And one simple exercise you could do is imagine if we spoke 5 years from now and you're telling me how awesome things are, and what would you tell me? Once this future state is appealing, and it should be so big that you have goosebumps and excitement. Once this is big enough and resonant, so not just bigger for the sake of bigger, but resonant, this will provide gravity to pull you forward. So when you have those moments of doubt, of stage fright, or whatever else, You know why you're doing this. And even in this here, often it comes down to service. For most humans, if what they're up to is serving something bigger than themselves, it has that next level of motivation. So, tapping into this can be really helpful.

There is again, we talked earlier about humility. But we do have leaders like I still run into kind of the baby boomer leaders who think it's all about the carrot and sticking. They've been in control of their business. For them, having any kind of vulnerability makes them feel like they're going to be weak. How do we shake ourselves out of this? If somebody's watching this and going, I would never tell my staff that. I would never tell my staff I was having a hard day, or never tell my staff I didn't know the answers because then they're going to lose faith in me. Right? What do you tell those people?

Simply try to answer the question, how do you know if it's true? Approach from curiosity and openness. And for example, in this case, if somebody— okay, first of all, if the situation where you're in is perfect and you're going really well, then why change?

Yeah.

But if something is not serving you, like earlier you said, like, oh, it's been 5 years doing the same thing or trying stuff. And if you've been trying a bunch of stuff for 5 years and it's not changing, then you've been doing things differently, but have you been thinking differently? Have you been being different? Maybe that's where the challenge is. So just start with that question. How do I know if it's true? And then go on this quest to try to find the answer. And along the answer might be simple steps. Again, we talked about low risk.

Mm-hmm.

That could simply ask somebody who is maybe a peer, both as an owner or a leader or in the age group, and ask them, hey, what have you done for this? And the peer groups you mentioned, there's Vistage, there's Entrepreneurs Organization, there's a bunch of others. It's great to have peers. compare notes. And as you find your own answer for that question, you might be surprised. And as long as it's helpful, as long as it serves you, well, it's good. And over time, this muscle will develop. As soon as you see a small thing that doesn't serve you, you will start questioning and get to the bottom of it. And it's not about the destination or the journey, it's who you're becoming while you're getting there. So you will get to grow and maybe become that person that can create That future that you seek.

That sounds so powerful. And I'd like to get into some cautionaries and some pitfalls because my fear is always that somebody will consume something and then it becomes, oh, that sounds like for the next 30 days, that's what I'm going to do. And everybody in their team is just rolling their eyes going, okay, here he goes again. So, I'd like to talk about pitfalls and cautionaries and we'll get to that right after this.

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I hope you're getting a ton of value from today's episode. As you can tell, Peter and I are on a mission to support businesses and business owners just like you. So, if you belong to an organization that could use our help, or you know somebody who might be planning a leadership retreat or a conference, they might be looking for speakers, please go ahead, drop us a line. Our contact information is in the show notes. We'd love to explore how we could be of service to you and Your people. We alluded to, Peter, we alluded to this idea of coaching and so on. But I think it goes much deeper than maybe just the coaching and more into about this idea of surrounding ourselves with powerful networks. It was something that somebody said once to me that you're the average of the 5 people you hang out with. How can business owners and leaders start building a powerful network that is relational, Meaning that we actually are in a relationship rather than transactional. How can we go about doing that?

I think it comes down to choosing how you want to show up. Who do you want to be? And being relational might be— some people say, oh, they're being relational. But are they really being that or they're just saying that? So, for me, it comes about— it comes from generosity. So, always try to help and serve first. One of my mottos is ABG, always be giving. When I meet somebody, I always look at ways to give them at least a few minutes of my attention minimum. And if they're nice, maybe I give them more. And so, always serve first. I meet people, even prospective clients, even before we even talk or have that first coaching conversation to see fit. Yeah. I may make some introductions. I may help them in different ways, give them tools. And even the way I build my business, I first coach gratis 2 hours to see if it's a good fit. And I'm not trying to sell. I'm coaching, no holding back. And after that, if it's a good fit, then we can talk about the next steps. Now, when it comes to serving, it can be the simplest thing is making an introduction and not worrying so much about what can I get out of it or whatnot. Just serving first. And in terms of a network, This is also a quest, so there's an aim, not a goal, because you don't know specifically who's going to be in it, so you don't have a goal. But the aim could be as simple as having a great network that you really enjoy. And optimizing for serendipity is one of the ways that I love doing that. So it's part curiosity. You meet somebody, you're remotely curious about them, don't just add them on LinkedIn and don't talk to them. Zoom, coffee, hot chocolate, or maple syrup on the snow if you're in Canada in the winter, whatever. Just connect with them. And part of it is also wandering with an A and wondering with an O. So trying a bunch of stuff and also reflecting on what worked, what hasn't worked. And so when I, let's say, I'm invited to a community, I always say yes. First look around, see how can I serve first. If it's maybe a message board or organize events or whatnot, things that come naturally to me. And then sooner or later, I'm going to meet some people that are maybe interesting. And if maybe there's an opportunity to serve in a way that becomes a serendipity engine, let's say speaking or doing an event, that can be even better. So I was invited to speak maybe 10 minutes at a dinner where it was meant for connection for the people who are there, family style, but they wanted a speaker to give them something to think about. and talk about. I spoke for 10 minutes. There were 40 people. While I was trying to get to my second dessert, because I have a sweet tooth, 7 people came up to me. They resonated with my message. So it took me 10 minutes to filter through 40 people. And so these are the different ways that you can optimize how many people, how much serendipity there will be. And now that you meet a bunch of people, the ones that you really resonate with, you can invest your the energy to build deep relationship with those people. And being somebody who comes from service first, your reputation builds and then people are happy to refer you to other people, invite you to other events. Just the last— and also trust compounds, including building your network. And so just the last 12 months, I got into rooms where the imposter syndrome came up. I was asking myself, how the hell did I get here? I was the maybe least interesting, least important person in the room, but I was in the room. And I knew that that's just a good sign that, hey, I'm playing a big enough game. So I was happy about that, a bit anxious, but I just leaned into service. And then all those feelings of anxiety went away, had a great time. And then I kept meeting even more better, more interesting people.

It's interesting that you say that because one of the newest kind of shifts that I made in the last 3 to 4 months was in my sales calls, in my prospecting calls. Because originally, whenever I went on a call, it was all about sales, sales, sales. And it always felt icky and gross. And I hated doing it. And I got awkward. But one shift that I made in December was I turned around and said, why don't I just focus on what I can do to serve them? Just use my curiosity, my innate curiosity. Get curious about what they're looking for and that sort of thing. And just go into service mode. And it changed my whole framework. It made myself— it made me less scared to get onto phone calls with people. It felt less awkward. And ultimately, it created great relationships because even when I turned around and go, well, you know what? I know I can't help you. But you know what? Let me refer you to somebody who I know can. And it just created that magical connection where people turned around and go, it really felt like you were talking to me as if you wanted to make sure my event was great or that you were there to help support my success. And it just felt so different.

That's a very good example. Like this often comes up. A lot of people feel that they don't want to be salesy because some of the values they may have is to not be salesy, to not be transactional. And we all have these memories of that used car salesperson, that cliché. But this comes back to who are you being? If you're being salesy, then you're going to think a certain way. You're going to think of, oh, where I can make money. And what you're going to be doing is maybe asking certain questions. Maybe ask a question, how much budget you have for whatever the product is. But maybe there's a way of being in the same context that you can show up as that's more resonant. And being of service, in my case, I'm being the host, which is I hold space. I serve others in all these ways. Now, if you're being, let's say, of service, you're going to think differently. You're not going to be thinking about where I can make the most money, but how can you help? And by doing that, you're going to ask different questions, maybe asking questions about curiosity about what are the challenges so you can hone in on how you can serve. And the funny thing is when you do that, you will actually serve more and the sales might take care of themselves.

Yeah.

So, you might have better KPIs and or whatever the OKRs are by focusing on not the numbers, But on service. And many wise people, they often say this. Serve first and success will follow.

Yeah. And when we talk about building strong networks, how important do you think it is for people to join or be part of associations but also be active within associations? Is that something that is an easy win?

When you go into an association, first of all, it has to be the right one. It has to be your people, values, and whatnot. So it's a quest and a bunch of experiments to find the right ones. Now, once you just join one, that's limited value. A lot of people have joined. But if you become active, that's when things get really good. So there's one association that I joined, like the Post-Exit Founder. I joined, first thing I looked around, how can I help? And there was an offer there. The founder, Barak, he suggested if anybody want to, you know, Have a chat with him. And I took the call and like asked him immediately, oh, thank you for organizing this. Well, you know, how can we help you? He didn't have anything, you know, specific, but he appreciated the question. And then by being on the map for these people, they're like, oh, Peter, he's not just here to take like most people, but he's here to give as well. And then through by being involved, organizing a few lunches here and there, and it didn't come from a place of calculating. It came from a place of service and what I already love doing. We had a dinner once, a visiting member from a different chapter. He was trying to do it remotely and I told him, no, you're our guest, we'll handle this. And another time it was really warm in San Francisco, which is unusual. And as a Hungarian who loves ice cream, I thought, what better time to have ice cream? So I organized a gathering to have ice cream at 2:45 PM on a Tuesday. I thought few people would show up, but 20 people did. And so just people paid attention to the small things I've done here and there. And then I got an opportunity to become one of the chapter leads here. So you see, by becoming involved and not in a way that's heavy, just naturally that comes from your essence. And for me, people being of service is of my essence. Then I got this new visibility and then great new things came, access to other networks and so on. So yes, join if it feels right. Great. Try things. Help first. And a lot of people get so much more joy by serving than consuming. And then just follow the thread, see where it leads without an attachment of knowing what's gonna come. Being on a quest, it's very important to give up the need to know.

You've just kind of quoted a cliché in different words, but it's better to give than to take.

It's universal. I mean, it's a cliché for a reason, probably, because It's timeless and universal. Just who has the best version of it?

Yeah. So, for people tuning in, for people who know that they have to make a change, we've talked about so many different concepts today around this idea of shaking ourselves out of our complacency so that we can thrive within our workplace, within our lives, within our communities, and so on. What pitfalls should we be aware of when it comes to trying to instigate a change?

Don't try to make too big of a change at the same time. One analogy I use is a series of dominoes. It's more effective when you see it. I usually share it on one of the first coaching calls. What happens is sometimes you try to knock over a domino that's too large. It doesn't move because it's too heavy. And some people try— maybe they're impatient. They're trying to move something that is not meant to be moved at that point in time. So when you are setting off on this journey, first of all, find why you want to do this. So it's not your— it's your truth. It's not what you think you're supposed to do. When it comes from you, much more powerful. And then just look at the first step. And if whatever the first step that you think is feels too large, it's not the right one. So break it down until it's such a small step that you are not hesitating. You are not procrastinating. And by the way, every other step can be just as small. What's going to happen is you're going to have momentum, movement. And as we said earlier, you either learn or you succeed. So, your velocity of learning will increase. So, starting small is perhaps the best way. Maybe this is a cliché too, but yes.

It is a cliché, but I think it's worth repeating because I do find that people want Kind of that instant relief. They want that magic wand, that instant thing. And so, reminding people that you have to look at your path and create just the small steps. And the big thing to your point is if you take a small step, if you take a step in the wrong direction, you haven't made such an enormous step that you can't turn around and keep on going. Right? So, I think that's— That's really handy. So Peter, can you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Yes, they can find me on LinkedIn. My website is cqsavvy.com. That's cqsavvy.com. And my email, peter@cqsavvy. We'll all put that in the show notes, I imagine. And it's going to be easy to find.

Terrific! Peter, thank you so much. As we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts? Anything we haven't talked about today?

Maybe just a few closing words I would leave them by, leave our audience with, is, and this might be also again a cliché, but aim big. So it should be maybe a bit scary, but also exciting. Have a long-term timeframe and take small steps. And whenever something holds you back, a doubt, a limiting belief, or whatever it is, Those tiny steps we talked about, use them to validate. How do I know that I cannot be a great leader or I can have a great network? All these things are just beliefs, all these stories that we make up. Try to find out what the truth is.

Yeah, yeah. And one of the biggest lies we tell ourselves is, I can't do this. And it's like when I ask people, have you ever done anything hard before? And they say, yes. So, you've done hard things. You know how to do hard things. Why does this have to be any different? Very good question.

Very good question.

Terrific! Peter, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate your knowledge, your passion, your expertise. I love that there's this calmness about you. Your coaching clients must love you because you incite this calmness. And I think it's brilliant. Thank you so much!

Thank you.

If you have any questions about today's episode, or you'd like a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with you or your team, feel free to book yourself on my online calendar. The link is down below. It's the one that's marked meetwith.marchaine.com. And as always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, why don't you go ahead subscribe to this feed? Follow me on social media. There's tons and tons of content that we put out every day. And of course, make absolutely sure you follow Peter on LinkedIn. It's a brilliant conversation today. And I'm so glad that you were able to make time to be here with me today. My name is Marc Haine. I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception. Thank you, Marc.