Why Workplace Culture Is Killing Your Results

What if the biggest drain on your business isn't your budget, your tech, or your strategy? What happens if it's your culture? And worse yet, what if your culture is quietly sabotaging your results one unchecked behavior at a time? And that's what we're talking about today on Marc Haine Live. Welcome to this episode of Marc Haine Live. This is where small business owners and entrepreneurs pick up core skill sets to create the show-stopping, jaw-dropping experience that your customers and your employees deserve. I am your host, Customer and Employee Experience Strategist Marc Haine. And today, my guest is Organizational Behavioral Strategist Tim Cattrill. And today, we are pulling back the curtain on the hidden behaviors that quietly shape our culture. And we're going to be showing you how to change them before they cost your team, your momentum, and your bottom line. The only price of admission here is to make absolutely sure that you subscribe to this podcast. And please make sure you share the episode with your circle. I'd love to see the business community really supporting the work that I've been doing for the last 5. Yes, count them, 5 years. I'd love to get more subscribers and of course, more eyes on the content because each week, I bring you amazing experts just like Tina today. The signs are everywhere. The team is technically doing their jobs in your workplace. But momentum tends to be flat. Collaboration feels forced. And progress, it's sluggish at best. You're investing time, money, and energy but things just aren't clicking. Does that sound familiar? Does it? You're kind of fighting. Seems like you're fighting this battle trying to pull this big rock up a huge hill and nothing is moving. And let's face it, you've probably tried communication strategies. You've tried to do reorganization. Maybe you've even put up motivational posters in the break room. And yet, people keep defaulting to the same behavior patterns. They're working in silos. There's tons of friction and deadlines are being missed. Why? Because culture isn't about what we say it is. We can't dictate culture. It's about what we do. It lives in the micro behaviors, the assumptions, the unspoken norms that plague our workplaces. And that brings us to— Our Question of the Day. So, are your team's daily behaviors driving your business forward? Or is it quietly dragging it backwards? The bigger question is, how do you know? I'd love to get your input on this. Go ahead and share this episode on your favorite social media platform. Hashtag it #ExperienceLeadership and please be part of this conversation. I'd love to hear what kind of challenges and what kind of uphill battles you're facing. As I mentioned, today's guest is an expert in lighting the fire under workplace culture and doing it with precision. Tina Contrill is a former Fortune 100 executive turned powerhouse speaker and culture strategist with over 2 decades of experiences leading complex teams and a decade more helping really organizations rewrite their cultural stories or culture stories. She knows exactly what accelerates or what kills performance. After personally enduring the fallout of a toxic workplace herself, Tina came out on the other side with a new mission to help leaders at every level build healthy, high-performing cultures through small powerful behavioral shifts. Tina, welcome to the show! It is so great to have you here. I mean, the path to get here, Tina, was so tough.

It wasn't the easiest, was it? But it's great to be here finally. So, thanks for having me.

No worries. So, let's start off by talking a little bit about who your customers are and how do you serve them.

So, I work mainly with science-based organizations. My background, I was a nurse practitioner in the cardiac ICU, and then I was in the pharmaceutical industry for over 20 years. So, it's kind of a natural fit. So, I work with the pharmaceutical industry, biotech, hospitals, healthcare, really anybody in that healthcare, biotech, pharma space. And what I do with them is I help them to create really high-performing cultures using nothing more than behavior. So, I basically help them to reprogram how their people in the organization think, act, and interact because that at the end of the day is what creates culture.

I love that. And I laughed when I actually wrote the notes and wrote about putting the motivational speaker up in the lunchroom because I can't tell you how many organizations I've had where it's like, they team. They're like things like, there's no I in team. And there's all these motivational speeches and motivational bits, quotes, and so on with some really just glorious graphics and everything to create that emotional connection to it. But really, at the end of the day, those are just words.

They are indeed just words and I don't like them at all. So, even when I was a commercial VP in big corporate, I've never really bought into that corporate speak. And those lovely wall art of your values and your mission and your vision, which if you cover them up and ask people to recite them, nobody can. And nobody really lives by them. It just becomes— it's a make-work project. It's not something that's lived every day. And culture is something, it's about behavior. So, it really has to be brought to life. And that's, never mind the wall art. You won't find me doing any of that. There'll be no posters anywhere. So, it's more about what can we actually do.

I'm waiting for Keurig to put out little pods with with like really motivational speaking things on it. So, as you go to make your coffee, you could pull it out and you go, oh, play nice with others. Okay. Can you walk us through a little bit about how you define culture within an organization's context?

So really, the culture of an organization, it's perceived to be this really complex, nebulous, somewhat fluffy thing, but it's anything but that. It's basically how we get things done. That's it. And it's often confused with climate. And I think this is a really important distinction to make because very often, when organizations want to fix their culture, what they actually do is focus on the climate. The difference between those things, if you think of an organization like a person, right? So, the culture is the personality of the organization. The climate is a mood swing. So, I can be in a bad mood but it doesn't change my personality. But if somebody changes my mood, my personality stays the same. If you want me to change my personality, you have to work on my personality and not my mood. So, it's really the personality of an organization. It's how we get things done, how people interact with each other, how information moves through. And it all comes down to behavior.

I think it's rather unique. And this lesson was actually punctuated by my daughter working for a trailer renting company. where she was given an onboarding process. She was given support for the first 3 months with her direct supervisor, making sure that the direct supervisor was very close to make sure she answered all the questions and everything. And for the first 3 months, everything was just amazing. She felt really well supported. After the 3 months was up, she kind of shook, like washed her hands of the whole thing. Said, oh, you got all things now. Go out into the world. Make magic. And what ended up happening was at As soon as the supervision was gone, all these kind of micro behaviors started creeping in from all the salespeople. She'd have a salesperson come up to her and go, oh, if I'm in the yard, just text me. Don't call me because I might be with a client. And somebody else is like, hey, no matter where I am, please make sure you call me. And all this. And so, she was actually— she got caught on her cell phone texting. And her supervisor's like, Ah! You know you're not allowed to have your cell phone at work. It's just going, but I'm texting Steve. Right? And so, there's all these kinds of things that create this culture of uncertainty. And it's almost like you have to learn through osmosis. So, when we think about this idea of defining culture, what do you think the most expensive mistakes leaders make when becoming aware of culture?

Well, they ignore it.

So, they ignore it.

Okay. The most expensive mistake leaders make is that it's just kind of assumed that it's there. I mean, how often, Marc, have you gone into an organization for the first time and somebody sat you down and they went through all the usual onboarding stuff? And then somebody said, now, I'm going to walk you through the culture. And I'm going to tell you what the culture is of our organization and how we get things done around here and what the principles are that we live by and how we work with each other and how we interact with each other. Never.

Never.

Exactly.

Never.

So, that's the most expensive mistake that leaders and organizations make is because they don't pay attention to the culture until something goes wrong. And by the time they get to me, they often say, we've got this problem and this problem. Do you think it could be the culture? By the time they get to me, the answer is always yes because I know they've tried everything else.

Yes.

I know they've restructured. I know they've come up with a new strategy. I know they've moved people around. I know they've reprioritized their sales lists. I know they've done all of that stuff and it's still not working. They've done leadership training. And then, they come to me and say, do you think it might be the culture? I'm like, of course, it was the culture. It always has been. But it's often the last thing that people get to. And sometimes, if you leave it right to the last minute, it's just not recoverable.

Right.

Usually, it is. But if you let it get too far, it's like turning an oil tanker. So, one of the things I love to do with organizations is give them a very quick thing that they can do to turn that oil tanker around. So, they're not waiting months and years and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars trying to do it.

I get a sense that in a lot of organizations, and I know a lot of HR managers, that the expectation from all the other department heads is, well, culture is your job. You're the human Resource manager. That's your job. But that's not really what's causing the problem, is it?

No.

Let's policy it, Tina. We'll just write a policy. I think 35 pages of how we should be treating each other.

Yeah, it doesn't work. So, it's really not an HR job. And let me put some context around this. So, I have a 13-year-old son and his bedroom is Usually quite messy. Is it my job to tidy up the mess that he made, or is that his job to tidy up the mess that he made? So, culture isn't created or damaged or fixed by one department. And when I was working in big corporates, I remember I'd been in this company for 2 weeks and I was commercial VP. And they'd had a culture survey done before I got there. And it wasn't good. The results were actually, they were terrible. And on our way out of our first, my first executive meeting, the president took the report, slapped it in front of the VP of HR, and said, you need to do something about that. And that right there was all I needed to know. That, oh my goodness, I've made a massive mistake coming here because HR don't create the culture. So, how on earth can they fix it? Culture is created by the behavior of every single person inside the organization. And now, we're asking HR to fix it. Culture is everybody's business. And there was a deliberate pun there. It really is everybody's business and everybody needs to be responsible for it. It's so unfair and unreasonable to hand it to HR and say, here, fix that, and expect miracles. It's setting them up to fail.

Where I find that most organizations don't leverage the power of HR, I believe, In all the different organizations I've ever worked in, my HR person becomes the conscience of the organization when it comes down to interacting with staff. And so, one of the things that I find is that when people, when they bring HR on, it's your job is benefits, your job is payroll, your job is to make sure the reviews are done on time. But really, you have somebody in your organization if you have an HR manager who could be the leadership coach. that you go to and you say, I'm having a really challenging emotional reaction to this particular employee. Or, I just, I'm going crazy. Having somebody that you can actually talk to who can talk you down and help you work through some of that to me is a perfect HR person.

Absolutely! I completely agree. And I hope it didn't come across that I don't think HR people are valuable. I do think they're incredibly valuable.

No, I didn't get that message.

I just think it's really unreasonable to expect them.

That they're going to fix it.

Fix the culture. I mean, this thing is huge. You can't do that. But they have a critical role to play in helping people develop, in identifying where there are behaviors that could indicate that the culture is a little bit off. They have a critical role to play in being an HR business partner. I've worked with some fantastic HR business partners where they really do help you create the kind of people and behavior that you need to drive your business. And they are worth their weight in gold. Absolutely.

I get a sense a lot of times when I talk to leaders that they're kind of sort of delusional about what goes on in their business. I think that people within like industries and stuff, they blame the industry. Ah, it's just the industry. It's sales. It's sales. And that's the way salespeople are. And so, this whole thing about kind of discounting concerns because you figure, oh well, they're just super competitive, or they're just whatever, that we end up start— we start to kind of band-aid these things and think, well, if I just leave it alone, it'll just go away by itself.

No, it doesn't.

So, how do leaders know that their workplace is toxic?

You can feel it. So, there's some obvious signs. One of them is this, and people aren't stupid. I tell everybody this. People are not stupid. So, if you have somebody in your workplace who might be performing well, might be bringing in the results, but they're behaving in a way that's really unhelpful or inappropriate and you don't address it, people see that. The trouble is with that is if you don't address the behavior, I guarantee it will be repeated. guaranteed it will be repeated because you think it's okay, right? So, I will repeat that behavior. Now, other people look at this and think, oh, so that's how you have to behave to succeed here. So, I'll behave like that as well. So then, that repeated behavior becomes copied. And whatever is copied and repeated determines the norm. That's your culture. So, if you look inside your organization and you see this unhelpful behavior, inappropriate behavior not being addressed, you see people that aren't talking to each other, or they do talk to each other but they fight. They argue. People hiding and hoarding information. They don't share. Information is power. Everything has to go up the chain and back down it. You can't talk across the organization. And I would say the biggest flag to me of an unhealthy culture is when you say to people, so, do you have any observations or any concerns or comments? And there's silence.

Yeah.

Silence to me is the most concerning symptom of an unhealthy culture because it usually means that people are fearful to speak up. They fear repercussions or they fear looking stupid or there's something going on in the culture that's keeping them quiet. So yeah, there's some really obvious signs and there's some less obvious signs. And I would say the silence is a less obvious one.

And what's interesting is I find that leaders who aren't self-aware, they're the ones who are blaming people. Like a perfect example, they're not responding. It's like, I don't know what's wrong with them. Nobody wants to engage. Nobody wants to be intuitive, like creative. Nobody wants to help. It seems like I always have to dictate everything.

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

And it's constantly playing the blame game. And I love that you said that the behavior will always kind of manifest itself because I do believe, I talk when I train people, train organizations, I talk that what gets recognized, rewarded gets repeated. If you see a behavior that you like and you recognize it and you reward it in some way, then that behavior starts to become the norm. The one thing I've noticed is that when with bad behavior, to your point, it becomes— it goes across the organization. But in itself, when it's not addressed, it's going to evolve into worse behavior. I've never seen—

Absolutely.

I've never seen it opposite to that. I've never seen anything that ever contrary to it. It's like when somebody is consistently late, And other people come in late. It's at some point, somebody came in late and you said nothing.

Because, and that becomes your culture, right? I mean, that's a great example. When people are late for meetings, first it's one person. Nobody says anything. So, people see that and they keep doing it. They think, well, if they don't show up on time and nothing happens, I'll do that too. And then, it becomes a thing. And then, somebody new starts in the organization and they might notice it and say, How come everybody's late for meetings? Oh, it's just how we are around here. That's your culture right there. We create it through our behavior, which is why it's so important. And actually, it's the kindest thing to do to correct somebody's unhelpful or inappropriate behavior. It takes courage. And I do think a lot of managers, they don't address unhelpful behavior because it's hard, right?

It's uncomfortable. I don't want a confrontation. I don't want them to be mad at me. And it's interesting. I was just telling my mother about the story with the monkeys and the banana in the water.

Have you heard that story?

No, what's that? Oh, so a social test was they brought like 4 monkeys into a room. And they have a staircase. And at the top of the staircase, they put a banana. And so, if a monkey goes up to get the banana, they spray all the monkeys. And so, the monkeys very quickly learn, as much as I want the banana, we don't want to get wet. So, they don't try. And then, they introduce— they take one monkey out and introduce a new monkey. Well, what does that new monkey do? That new monkey goes up the stairs and grabs a banana. Everybody gets wet and the monkeys are very unhappy. After a while, they introduce a new monkey and the monkey starts going up the stairs and all the other monkeys jump on it and say, no, stop! Right? And they become really agitated. And then, they start as they go through the exercise, they bring in all brand new monkeys through the exercise. Not one of them has ever been sprayed with water. But the whole culture is if you go up there, You're going to get beat up by all the other monkeys.

100%, right? There's a human experiment that was done that's quite similar. It's a bunch of people sitting in a doctor's office and they're all waiting. And some of them are actors, but some of them are just members of the general public. And a bell rings. And when the bell rings, the actors stand up and then they sit down. And you see the members of the general public kind of looking around, what's happening? And they keep ringing the bell and they keep ringing the bell. within like a matter of not even minutes, within 2 times of this bell ringing, everybody's standing up. They have no idea why they're doing it. It's this natural human need that we have to be accepted because, you know, as much as we've evolved over the last 3,000, 4,000 years, our brains are still reptilian.

Yeah.

And to us, being on the outside of something is unsafe. It's just not safe. It means that we're, you know, we're vulnerable. So, the culture of an organization, we try and fit. So, whatever your culture is inside your organization, when somebody comes in, they are going to do their best to try and morph into the shape of that culture because our reptilian brains are saying, if you don't fit, the saber-toothed tiger will eat you. And we can't tell the difference between an angry boss and a saber-toothed tiger. So, it's pernicious.

Yeah.

Like how an unhealthy culture can grab a hold of people incredibly quickly. And draw them in. But a healthy culture can do the exact same thing.

And it's so funny because it is such an anchor. And people might be tuning in and go, that doesn't happen in my business. I can tell you, I've been in businesses where a grocery store where a clerk is faster than everybody else, all the other grocery store clerks will pull them aside and say, will you please slow down? You're making us look bad. Right? And instead of stepping up and kind of matching up, It's like, oh no, no, we get paid by the hour. If we only do 5 boxes instead of 12 boxes, we still get paid the same. So, stop it. And then, we end up marginalizing.

Precisely. And it speaks to productivity, right? I mean, I don't know if you saw the Gallup recently launched their 2024 State of the Workplace report. You saw that? And the Engagement has gone down. But there's a $440 billion global loss in productivity because of lack of engagement or because engagement has decreased. But what's engagement? Engagement is about culture. It's about people.

Yes.

That's terrifying.

It is. It is. And today, every employer I talk to always has a handful of people that they say, I don't understand why they won't do stuff. I don't understand why they're not engaged. The Gallup poll, the 2022 one was saying that 54% of the working population is actively looking for work even though they're employed.

Yeah, it's still 50%. Right?

So, that's shocking. If you have 12 employees, 6 of them are looking for work.

It's terrifying because when other people, when you're looking, you've got half your workforce looking for another job. I guarantee they're not focused on what they're currently doing.

Yes.

So, productivity goes down. Attention goes down. They've already Once you start looking, you've got one foot out of the door.

You do indeed. Yeah.

Keeping people engaged is critical.

Yeah. So, I'd like to dig into some strategies and how we can start turning the tide on this. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back. I am speaking with the fabulous Tina Cattrall. We're having a Fantastic conversation. I also have to say hi to Ashbin. Ashbin just wrote down that he thinks AI will replace them all. What do you think about that, Tina?

No, it won't. I think that's— it's a lovely thought. And I think AI is incredibly important. I use it every single day. I think it's vitally important. But at the end of the day, business has always been and will always be about human relationships.

Right.

All businesses are about human interaction. And until our psychological development catches up with our physical development and evolution, that's not going to change. And you can see just in the last few years since the pandemic how people are now working from home more, how culture has become a lot more strained because the connectivity has been lost to a large extent. I think there are fantastic benefits to working at home, and I'm not knocking it. But proximity really does matter and human connection matters. And until such a time that we evolve to a point where we really don't need human connection anymore, that's going to be thousands of years in the future.

Well, I follow— I'm glad you talked about remote workers and stuff. And I'm glad that Ashbin started off with this AI because I follow different HR kind of focused feeds and groups. And there seems to be a real propensity for tech solutions to enhance things like communication, create engagement programs, and create digital sandboxes so people can play play well together in the sandbox. Are these tools effective or are we just throwing money?

No, most I think people are just throwing money. I mean, you have to pare it back to the very basics of what people like, what this human condition needs. And what we need is connection and understanding. And if you look at culture and the biggest problem in workplace or the biggest problems in the workplace aren't caused by lack of technology, or, you know, the root of it is human communication, or human connectivity, or human relationships. Once you peel everything away from the situation and the problem, in the middle there, there's at least 2 humans, and quite often more. So, if you really want to drive a healthy, strong, powerful business, if you want a competitive edge, work on your people. And it's not a case of giving them an online program and say, hey, you go take that online program. It's about teaching people or reteaching people how you connect with others. And I know this sounds like it's motherhood and apple pie. It's not because we're not doing it anymore. I mean, if we were, I wouldn't have a job and I do. So, you know, I would love to, to be so successful that I actually do myself out of a job that nobody needs people like me anymore. But I don't see that happening for a very long time.

Yeah, yeah. So, people tuning in, what would be the starting point if they identify, yes, we have a cultural problem? What then becomes the starting point for shifting culture quickly? You mentioned turning oil tankers.

So, the first thing I would recommend people do is look at your strategy. It has to start there because whatever you do with your culture, it has to drive your strategy. It's got to meet with your strategy and fit that. So, what's your strategy? Where are you going? What's your vision? And how will you know when you've arrived? That's the first thing. And that's really kind of basic Leadership 101. Know where you're going. The second thing is then look at your culture. Now, if I'm going into a highly competitive industry and there's lots of people in the market and it's fairly crowded and I need to stand out from the crowd, but my culture is a hierarchy, or as it's called, a control culture. So, everything has to go up the chain and back down it. That's incredibly slow. And the number of times, Marc, I hear organizations say, we want our culture to be agile. And when I say, what do you mean by that? And then I get the blank faces. It's one of those things that people say, but they don't really know what they mean. I think what they mean is we need to be able to turn on a dime because we need to be able to get out ahead of our competition. So, does your culture match your strategy? And if the answer is no, well, then you need to change your culture because your strategy is fixed. So, you now need to change your culture. Do I need a competitive culture? Do I need a culture where everybody collaborates? And I would say everybody needs that to some extent. Do I need a really creative kind of entrepreneurial culture? Or is a control culture appropriate in this setting? So, it's really matching your culture to match your strategy. That's the first thing. The second thing is, am I hiring the right people into my organization? You don't hire— well, you don't. A lot of people hire for skill, right? We look at a resume and we say, wow, this person's really well qualified. They've got all these qualifications. This is great. We don't often hire for fit. So, strategy first, define your culture second, and then hire to that culture. Now, we train to culture. So, is everybody in this organization all singing from the same hymn sheet? Forgive the expression because it's hackneyed, but— Is everybody behaving in the same way? And I don't mean we're trying to turn them into little robots. That's not what I mean. But do we have the same kind of mindset? Do we solve problems in the same kind of way? Do we share information because it's safe to do so? What does agility mean? What are the principles that underpin all that? So, then you have to really— I call them guiding principles that you have around, you know, between 3 and 5 principles that guide the way that people behave inside the organization. So, they're not punished for behaving badly. They're rewarded, as you said earlier, in a way that it supports the culture. And the last thing, and this is the thing that I like to embed inside every organization, you can do this if you have absolutely no budget for training. Change people's assumptions because everything we do and say is based on what we think. And what we think is based on our assumptions. The trouble with assumptions is nearly 100% of them are wrong. Because any assumptions I make about you, Marc, are coming from my upbringing, my culture, my background, my education, and my experience. Anything that you perceive about me is being passed through the same filters, but your experiences, background, culture, upbringing, etc., aren't the same as mine. So, we naturally make assumptions about every single person that we meet, but the trouble is 99.9% of them are wrong. And then, when somebody does or says something, we don't like it because we pass it through our filters. we get upset.

Yeah.

And then, you get poof! And now, I don't want to work with that person because they're difficult. So, if you challenge the assumptions that people make and try and embed useful, healthy, positive assumptions, it makes a massive difference. And I'm not kidding. It does it like that. It's immediate. It's an immediate change because then, people go, well, hang on a minute. What assumptions am I making? And the next question is, What could I assume instead that's more helpful? It changes relationships in an instant.

It's really interesting. As you were saying that, I flashed back to a team meeting of highly divisive people. So, there were 12 people, different departments. There were lots of clashes on the floor. And so, we decided to have a meeting. And the very first thing that I did in the meeting was we went through the Virtues Project. Virtues Project is a bunch of cards with virtues on them. I don't know if you know it at all. But what we had to do was you had to pull a virtue card. You put the virtue and then your job was to read it out loud and then say whether or not this was a strength or a weakness for you. And if it was a weakness, what do you want to do to overcome it? And then, we went around the table and we did acknowledgments.

That's great!

And it was amazing to see that as we busted assumptions about people and understood what they cared about, when it came around to doing acknowledging, it was like all of a sudden, nobody turned around and says, well, I see that kindness is your virtue. But you're still a bitch. Like nobody said that. Nobody. Everybody. And it changed the whole tone of that meeting so that we could actually sit down now as human beings and really deal with the crux of the problem.

I love that. And I do something very similar when I go to organizations and I train leaders. I have these cards and I call it, it's a bit of a vulnerability exercise because a lot of leaders don't like to get vulnerable with their Right? They all want to be very stoic and strong. And so I get them to take a card, and the cards will say something like, tell me about a time when you really struggled with something and why.

Hmm.

And then they have to share that with their colleague. And it changes, it fundamentally changes how you see people. And when I ask, you know, did anybody learn anything about anyone, everybody's hand goes up. You know, I learned that This person struggles with anxiety and I never knew. I didn't have a clue. It changes people. It changes your relationship. It changes how you feel and then it changes how you interact. And when people start to interact differently, guess what changes? Your culture. And when your culture shifts, guess what improves? Your productivity. And when that improves, profits start to go up. I mean, all this is linked back. I'm a commercial leader by trade. So, Revenue and profit is important to me. But people are also really important to me because I understand that they're the ones driving it. So, if you can create this incredibly seamless collaboration where people just work together so naturally and the momentum just starts to come and then everybody feels really good because you've got this positive momentum, the world's your oyster. I mean, you can just go so far on a healthy culture.

Right. It's interesting because there are people watching who will go, well, it's fine for you to say that but you don't know Shirley. Right? So interesting, interesting. Ashbin put in that people are afraid to confront their own beliefs. When you're changing the culture like this, when you're putting in and kind of doing exercises where people all of a sudden have to challenge how they feel about things, they have to challenge their assumptions. They also have to then challenge their belief and even their value systems. How do you overcome that? Is that something we could do internally or is that just better left to the professionals? Bring a consultant in who can help make that happen.

Well, of course, I would say bring in a consultant.

Of course.

Of course, I would. But I think it's something that leaders can do really effectively. And it's such an easy thing to do. It's so easy. And all you have to do is say to somebody, when you tell me that, or when you share that, or with the frustration you're feeling, or whatever complaint you have about Shirley, What assumptions are you making? And then just ask the question and then go quiet. I'm also an executive coach, so I work a lot with leaders. And I love that question. I ask that question a lot when I hear people say, I'm frustrated. I'm angry. I'm irritated. The most common emotions in the workplace, frustration and anger, accounts for 70% of all emotion in the workplace. Just imagine if we could get rid of that or even just reduce it, even halve it.

Yeah.

If you ask people, what assumptions could you be making? Well, she did this.

Did she?

Or did you perceive it like that? And what could you perceive instead? And how could you find out? And then comes the next phase where you have to go and find out. You know, you need to go talk to Shirley and say, when you did that— and it's the way that you say it, of course, not, why did you do that? Because I'll just drop this in, I don't like why, especially when it's directed at people. You know, why did you do that?

Right.

Because it always sounds like a judgment. And it always sounds like you could follow it with, you idiot. Why did you do that, you idiot? Why do you think that, you idiot? It just sounds so judgmental.

Or defensive. So, it's like, so, why'd you do this, you criminal?

Exactly. Keep away from why. Why is great for engineers. It's not great for people. And say something like, when you did this, this is how it looked to me. I don't for one second think that's what you intended. So, I wanted to talk to you about it so that I can understand it better. That's it. It takes courage to do that. But it fundamentally changes how people interact with each other.

And it's really about intentional curiosity, right? When you start to get curious about it as opposed to just taking stuff at face value, it changes the whole curiosity aspect of it. A lot of times though, do you find that people are just too busy to be intentional? They're too stressed out. They're too under the wire. They're too— to be able to do this. How do we shake that mindset?

The interesting thing is they're usually too busy because they're putting out the fires that are caused by these unhealthy relationships.

Right.

One of the things I do with people is get them on the old-fashioned flip charts. I love flip charts. Get them to write on the flip charts the the problems that they're currently facing. And when they do that, 90% of those problems are to do with people. You know, when you boil it down, it's so-and-so doesn't understand my work, or they're not getting information to me fast enough. And then we work through the assumptions. So yeah, it's so interesting that people, they don't always treat others with compassion. And I have a framework that I take— it's actually called the One Assumption Method— that I take people Hmm. And it starts with compassion. And I don't mean compassion in, I will forgive you for everything that you do inappropriate or unhelpful. It means compassion in that I recognize you're a human being and that sometimes you get it wrong. And it's my job as a leader, because this is the kind thing to do, to help you to get it right, because that lifts you up and it lifts up the organization. It's the kindest thing you can do for somebody to give them feedback.

Yeah.

It's the easiest thing not to. But as a leader, you have to do the hard thing, and it's the kindest thing. So, it starts with compassion, and then that compassion has to move into composure because if we have compassion, well, they did it to me. Oh, I'm so angry. Now, you have to control— not control, but regulate your own emotions. And then, that leads into curiosity. And once we have more information, then we can start to make better decisions.

I love that. This is really fascinating. Like I love this. All the, like you said, it's not woo-woo. This is really human dynamics at its core. For the people tuning in, could you let everybody know how they can get in touch with you if this is resonating and they need help?

Absolutely. So, you can email me directly at tina@tinacantrill.com. That's T-I-N-A C-A-N-T-R-I-L-L. Or you can go to my website, tinacantor.com. Or LinkedIn. Or LinkedIn.

Yep, hanging out there. And of course, we'll put all the links in the show notes. It's really interesting because one of the things that I came— when I was writing my book, I realized when we have interpersonal conflicts, probably 99% of the people who get mad at stuff is because their feelings get hurt. Somewhere when we were growing up, we played on the playground and my mother would say, go out and tell little Timmy that he hurt your feelings. And so, you go to little Timmy and tell him and then he beat the snot out of you. And so, somewhere along the way, you learned that that wasn't a good thing. But we stopped telling people that our feelings are hurt by what's going on.

Absolutely.

And I've not been able to test against it. Like I've never found anything that goes against that philosophy. This whole idea of being intentional, understanding where does emotional intelligence, how we feel about something, As leaders, as employees, how does that come into play?

Oh, it's huge, Marc. It's a massive part of it. And I weave emotional intelligence into everything. So, I'll tell you something that I always tell people, which is really controversial but it's true. When I hear people say, I find that so offensive, or, I took offense at that. Well then, don't. Or, I'm so offended. Well then, don't be. Because what's the point? If you get offended, now you're carrying that monkey on your back for the rest of the day and it's heavy and it weighs you down. Rather than get all upset and bent out of shape and offended, how about you go, what am I assuming? You know, that person did that to me. They did that to get under my skin. They're there to undermine me. They're trying to wind me up. Do you really think people get up in the morning, you know, standing in the shower washing their hair going, whose skin can I get under today? I don't think people do that. I really don't. I think they're just trying to get through the day. So, if you change your assumptions and you start to ask questions like, what assumptions could I be making? Maybe I'm assuming they're trying to get under my skin.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, how can I find out whether they are or not? Well, I can tell them how it landed and we can have a conversation about it. You will get more information and then you'll know, and then you can decide your next move. But I can pretty much guarantee, even if they are trying to get under your skin, Even if they are a little bit niggly, when you approach them with, this is how it sounded. But I don't think that's at all what you intended. It sends a message to people that, you know that thing you just did? Don't do it again. Without ever having to say that.

And that goes back to the whole idea when you see good behavior, you recognize and reward it. Oh, Tina, thank you. Oh, Tina, thank you so much for filling up the photocopier. I really appreciate it. Right now, are you going to turn around and go, oh, that guy Marc, he never fills up the photocopier.

Yeah, right.

But then, being able to turn around and saying, oh my goodness, Tina, I'm so sorry. I didn't realize I left it empty. I'll make sure to keep on top of it next time. We've actually talked about it.

We don't know what other people have going on in their lives, do we?

Exactly.

We've no idea. And we assume because we pass it through our own filters, our own little map of the world, if you like. And 99.9% of the time, we're wrong. But then when we do that, we create this conflict, this completely unnecessary conflict, and this heaviness, and this ickiness that we're now carrying around with us. And we kind of avoid the person. We see them coming, we hide under the desk, and we don't want anything to do with them. And they feel that. And now there's this adversarial relationship. And so now we don't share information. We create our own problems, which means we can also solve them. And it's just done through human relationships. Yeah.

And worse than that is in organizations, cliques are created. And so, you have a belief system. You surround yourself with other people who will listen to, support your belief system. And because of that, you're creating all these like micro silos of belief systems. And then, you're consistently at war.

Absolutely! Well, we seek validation, don't we?

Yeah.

And, you know, when people like to gossip at work, and they do, and when they gossip, they never just gossip to themselves inside their heads, do they? They have to go share it with somebody and kind of whip everybody up into this gossip-fueled frenzy. And, you know, I have a question that I'll share because I think this is amazingly powerful for people. When anybody used to gossip to me, I would just say, I'm just going to stop you for a second. I just want to understand the reason that you're sharing this information with me. And then, they kind of, oh well, I guess I was just venting. Okay, well, you can vent. You've got 30 seconds and then, I assume I'll never hear about it ever again, right? Yeah, yeah, right. You know what? It doesn't matter.

Well, and that's the thing. It's like, and my approach was always to do exactly that but then, to offer help. Do you need help dealing with this feeling? And they're like, no, no, never mind.

Yeah, never mind. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. As long as it's done with compassion, it's very effective. But it has to be done with compassion, not judgment.

So, for the naysayers who might be watching, people who are in their toxic environments for years and years and years, can behavior change really impact culture overnight? Or does it take time to build new trust?

No, it can change overnight. So, the way that you change it overnight, and there's one assumption that if you do nothing else, and if people listening to this do nothing else, do this. Assume that everybody is doing their best. That's it. So, if you need one assumption to embed into your organization, just assume that everybody is doing their best. Like I said earlier, you know, nobody gets up in the morning, well, I don't think they do, in the shower— Who can I annoy today? I don't think people do that. I really don't. I think they're just trying to get through the day unscathed, as most of us are. But if you just kind of embed this into your psyche that I am just going to assume that people are doing their best, immediately it embeds compassion straight away. It doesn't mean that you forgive people for doing crazy stuff. It means that you can compose yourself and regulate your own emotions. And then, you can approach them from a place of compassionate curiosity and not judgment and anger and irritation because that will just fuel it. That's, Marc, that will change culture overnight.

There you go. That is something that people need to tattoo onto their wrist every time that they get into something.

Absolutely.

People are trying their very best. And to your point, it's true. Like, I've talked to leaders who point fingers constantly about people who are not thorough and people who aren't engaged and people who don't show initiative. Nobody Nobody wakes up at the beginning of the day and says, today, I'm just going to shag the dog and it doesn't matter what I do. I'd rather just sit there and do absolutely nothing. Because given the choice, they want to be challenged. They want to have purpose. They want to succeed at something.

Absolutely! I think if people are behaving like that, as a leader, if people are behaving in that way, the first place to go look is in the mirror.

Yeah.

Like, go have a look in the mirror and say, what am I doing that's creating this? What am I not doing? that's allowing this? And then, see what you can do as a leader to engage people. And pizza parties aren't going to do it, by the way. That does not fix culture. That's the whole climate thing again. I'm going to have a pizza party or I'm going to take everyone out for lunch or we'll have a team building and everyone will be great. No, that's— it's great for mood. Climate does nothing for culture.

Right.

That's got to go much deeper. And that's very much a behavioral thing, a coaching mindset, Knowing how to ask the right questions, knowing how to shift behavior, knowing how to coach people to deliver the behaviors that you want to see, defining your culture. Where does it need to go? What does it need to look like? What does it need to feel like? So, it's simple but it's not easy.

Right, right. So, I'd like to get into some of the most common challenges and pitfalls leaders face when trying to improve the situation. And we'll get to that right after this.

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Welcome back! I hope you are getting tons of value from today's episode. As you can tell, Tina and I are on a mission to support businesses just like yours. So, if you belong to an organization that could use our help, or you or somebody you know might be planning a leadership retreat or a conference, that's our jam. Drop us a line. We'd love to explore how we can be of service to you and your people. Tina, how can leaders model the culture that they want without having to drive policy or sounding preachy?

It's behavior. It comes back to behavior. It's really how they behave with the people around them. So, we have to model what we want to see. But there's a step before that. The culture has to be defined. So, there are subcultures in organizations. Of course, there are. And that's totally fine. But there has to be this kind of overarching cultural theme as to, this is how we get things done around here. And that's where principles, which aren't policies or rules, they're just— it's guidance as to, this is how we get things done around here. This is how we interact with each other. This is how we work. This is how we speak to each other. This is how we treat each other. And then they have to model that. And one of the biggest things is consistency. People will look at you and make sure that your behavior is consistent. You can't be one day really, today I'm going to have a good day and I'm going to coach and I'm going to be patient. And then the next day you're just really reactive and erratic. That will destroy trust in 2 seconds. And it takes a long time to build trust. It takes a second to destroy it. So, leaders have to be really consistent in their behavior. And it's very much a case of not controlling your emotions. We can't control our emotions. They're part of who we are. We're emotionally driven creatures. What we can do is learn to recognize them and regulate them. So, understanding what it is that we're feeling. And most people are not very self-aware.

Right.

The majority of people aren't very self-aware. So, it's Understanding what am I feeling and then what do I do in response to that feeling. Most people react.

I remember back in the '80s, there was like a rubber band thing that you could do. So, when you got your knickers in a twist, you would snap the band and then you could ask yourself that question. Hey, what am I feeling right now? I just know my knickers are in a twist. Why am I feeling this way and why do I want to react this way? Is that a tool? Is that a good tool or is there something better? How do we stay intentional?

That's one way. Then self-flagellation is one way, but wouldn't recommend it. But it's just a case of understanding what that feeling is and what you're about to do in response to it. And then it's not the counting to 10, but it's asking yourself the question, what am I assuming right now? What assumptions am I making?

Again, it's about being like, you could be in the middle of crisis. How do we maintain that consistency with intentionality even when there's a thousand things going on? There's a crisis going on. You want to— how do we maintain that intentionality?

One of the best ways if you're feeling that like the pressure and what we try and do because we're raised this way, when we're feeling intense emotion, we're taught to suppress it, to keep it in. And have you ever tried suppressing an emotion?

Yes.

It has to come out. It's like a toddler on your pant leg, you know, when they're, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, mummy, and then you pay attention to them and it stops. So, emotions are exactly the same. So, as soon as you acknowledge, oh, hang on a minute, I'm feeling angry, or I'm irritated, or I'm frustrated, and this is why emotional intelligence plays such a massive part of this. If you say, and I recommend leaders do this, when they're feeling irritated or frustrated, if they say, You know what? I can feel myself feeling really frustrated right now, in this tone, by the way, really frustrated right now. I think it's because I thought we'd be further ahead, and we're not. So if you walk me through the reason that we're not where I thought we would be, I think that would really help. Can you just walk me through it?

Wow.

What the people just heard on the other side was, oh, she's not happy. And that's what they just heard. But you didn't yell. You didn't scream. You didn't make accusations. You didn't make them feel bad. You gave them an opportunity to explain it. And then, you go, okay. Well, I understand it. Now, what are we doing to move this forward?

Gotcha.

It's that kind of consistency that's so vital.

This has been so fantastic. It's just like, it's an awareness piece. Like when I put the show together, I have hopes of what's going to be the outcome. I mean, you've exceeded every expectation on helping me communicate kind of this need within organizations. Could you remind everybody one more time how they can get a hold of you?

Yes, so you're very welcome to contact me anytime at email. It's tina@tinacantrill.com. So, tina@tinacantrill.com. Or you can look me up on my website, Lovely.

And as we wrap up, do you have any last thoughts about what we've been talking about today?

Oh my goodness, Marc, I have many. My last thought, and it's this because I try and leave everybody with this. If you do nothing else coming out of this, check your assumptions and just try and embed this assumption into your head that everybody is doing their best. And I know people are going, yeah, but what if they're not? You don't know that they're not.

Yeah.

You don't know that. Everything that we do is based on an assumption. Check your assumptions and try and approach people from a place of compassionate curiosity. That doesn't mean you excuse bad behavior. It means that you're curious about the behavior. It's much easier to change it if you approach it in that way.

And then, you could take that assumption when somebody says, how do you know they are? Well, that's where the curiosity comes in because now, You sit down with it and say, I know you don't come in wanting to do this. How can we help?

Whatever, right? But understand that's not your intention. I don't for one second believe that's your intention.

Lovely! Tina, this has been great. Thank you again. I really appreciate you being here. It was a little bit of a challenge getting you here. But I'm so glad you are. And thank you so much for your value and for your passion and for your expertise.

My absolute pleasure, Marc. Thanks so much for having me.

Hey, got any questions about today's episode? Or maybe you're thinking, hey, we could really use a complimentary 30-minute brainstorming session with Marc or with Tina. Good news! You can snag a spot on my calendar. Just hit the link down below. And of course, if you want to get a hold of Tina, go to the website that's linked in the show notes. We are born to serve. And as always, I am at your service. And if you haven't done so yet, please, why don't you subscribe to this podcast? Follow me on social media. Let's get into conversations. I want to thank you so much for taking time to be here today. I'm going to reach out to Ashbin and say, Ashbin, thank you for joining live. It's so nice to have you and thank you for your questions. I absolutely love it when people bring in their own questions as well. At the end of the day, I hope you stay safe, stay healthy, and I hope you dare to be the exception.