An Interview With Mark C. Winters

Hi, everyone. Shannon Waller here and welcome to this team success podcast. Today I have a very, very special guest named Mark C. Winters, who is the co author of a brilliant book called Rocket Fuel. I have been so inspired by reading Rocket Fuel. I've read it a couple of times now in preparation for this conversation with Mark, and I am so excited because it solves so many problems I've been hearing about forever after having worked with Strategic Coach clients for 24 plus years. And why I'm so excited is because it describes two really important key relationships or roles, and that is visionary and integrator. So, Mark, I am so excited to have you here today because as pretty much everyone knows, my passion is entrepreneurial teamwork. And I think what you and Gino have put together here is just a brilliant kind of deep dive into one of the key relationships that's really necessary the key aspects of teamwork that's really necessary for an entrepreneurial company to grow and to thrive and for an entrepreneur to grow and thrive. So, first of all, thanks for writing and then I'd also love, if you wouldn't mind sharing with people what inspired you to write the book a little bit about your background and your relationship with Gino, because you know intimately how this relationship works, and I'd love for everyone to get a sense of that.

Well, sure. Well, Shannon, thank you so much for having me on. And it's fun to talk to you and catch up on our earlier conversations that we've started along the way. And just a little bit about my background. I started off as sort of big corporate, caught the entrepreneurial bug, as a good entrepreneur will do, and that started me off on a journey of what now is up to 10 different companies that I've either started, bought, shut down, or sold somewhere along the way. All different kinds of industries. And some of the things that I noticed along my own experience of the entrepreneurial journey was for a while, I was kind of flying by the seat of my pants and running more on gut instinct than anything else. And somewhere along the way, I discovered that if I had a system in place, it really worked a lot better. And I was able to get more out of the experience of what I was looking for. So I began to use systems in my companies, and later on in life, when I became more of an advisor, sort of started to step a little bit out of the operator role and spend more of my time working with other people and their companies. I would help them put a system in place for their own company. And, you know, obviously Gino invented the entrepreneurial operating system we call eos. I met Gino, we became fast friends, and I began to work with my clients to help them implement that system. And as part of the experience, we kept running into this situation where you'd have someone who just really had the great ideas, they had all the energy, they could see where things needed to go, but they just struggled when they couldn't follow through, they couldn't make it all happen, or they sort of trip over themselves and get in their own way around some of the executional details that were required to really make the thing go where it had the potential to go. So Gino had been seeing this for a long time in his clients. We sort of had a meeting of the minds on the topic, and out of that was birthed the book Rocket Fuel, which is all about that combination. It's looking at the two essential elements of leadership in an entrepreneurial business and how one set sort of seems to be ever present in a certain type of animal and a different set seems to be present in this other type. And really the power comes and the magic happens when we can get those two together in the same company.

Well, that's awesome. I'm sure it's actually not easy because like any long term relationship, it can take a while to find the right partner. I'm sure.

No doubt.

And especially when people come at things very differently, there can be some dynamics. I know that. We'll talk about that. So before we jump into the relationship, let's just define the terms. So what exactly is a visionary and what exactly is an integrator?

If you want to think about the visionary as the one that they're the engine, the fountain of ideas, they're coming up with new ideas all the time, maybe 20 new ideas a week. They never seem to run out of them. They have this unique ability to see the future and kind of see where things are headed and figure out the best place along that path to sort of position the company to take full advantage. Usually they're really gifted at big external relationships, whether that's a big key strategic client, some kind of a big vendor or other strategic partner. They're good at all that kind of stuff. And really the big interesting problems, they like to play with those. And so then you kind of turn your gaze the other way and look at the integrator. And the integrator in comparison to the visionary is much more execution oriented. They're much more about the details and the follow through and the making things happen. So, you know, I'VE heard you use some language around one type of person sort of makes it up, and another type of person sort of makes it real or makes it happen. And that's really the kind of dynamic that we have going on between this visionary and integrator.

Exactly. That's our make it up, make it real, make it recur model, which I love that you brought that up. And that's what we would call a project manager. But even within this distinction, you're talking about a very specific type of project manager who's actually probably in charge of running the whole company, not just a particular project.

That's absolutely right. So it may be a whole portfolio of projects and they have a team. So the leadership team of the organization, if you think about a functionally organized team, the head of sales and marketing, the head of operations, the head of finance and administration, whatever that split looks like in a particular organization, all of those leaders effectively are accountable to the integrator. So the integrator is having to work harmoniously through and between all these different kinds of other leaders and different projects that they may have going on. Pull those things all together in alignment with the overall strategic direction of the organization, and then really set the tempo so that everybody is pulling on the oars in the same rhythm and they're all moving together and making things happen.

Wow, that's not an easy task to do before we talk more about integrator, because I think that's what most of us are looking for if you're visionary listening, I want to share the description because by everyone listening, Gino and Mark have an awesome quiz you can take. And I love quizzes of whether or not you're a visionary, whether or not you're an integrator. So I have to. If you don't mind me sharing. Mark, I love this description. It's what you said. But then the second half to me is highly entertaining. It says it looks like you're a visionary. Yes. I scored 97 out of 100.

Good job.

Shocking. A typical visionary has most of the following characteristics. He or she tends to be the founding entrepreneur, is a great leader, has lots of ideas, is a big picture thinker, is a relationship person, is a creative problem solver, is a great salesperson, and is a grower and builder. This is the part I found entertaining. Unfortunately, he or she also creates chaos, has no patience for details, has add, gets distracted by shiny stuff, and wants to implement every single one of his or her ideas right now. That's why the interpreter is so important. I'm like, oh my gosh, how many people could I just name by name that fit that description? I thought everyone almost in Strategic Coach would fit that particular definition.

That's it. You know lots of them.

I most certainly do, which is why I think this conversation is so important and why I'm so excited that you have made the distinction between visionary and integrator. Because I know it's so essential for so many people to grow because they have these big ideas, but one of the ceilings of complexity that they hit is that they can't see how to actually make that happen because they're not the execution focused people. Or I know people who are brilliant at execution but don't have interesting people to play with. They don't have a big enough sandbox for their aspirations or for their capabilities. So if we can help matchmake a little bit with some people, I think that would be a huge result from this conversation.

Absolutely. That's what we're all about.

I love it. I love it. All right, so there already have been some great examples of this that we've read about. I always think of Walt Disney and his brother. What's his brother's name you mentioned in the book? Roy.

Roy.

And I know Roy was actually the one who finished Disneyland or Disney World.

Disney World. Disney World, yeah.

Yeah. Because unfortunately Walt passed away before it was completed. So that's a really dynamic duo that I think totally fits the visionary integrator partnership definition. And there have been some other great ones that you also mentioned. Who else are they?

Yeah, another real well known one was Ray Kroc that started McDonald's, had a guy named Fred Turner. And Fred was really his integrator in the early stages of that business, as it grew. And he built what they refer to as the Bible, which is essentially the manual of all the different processes for how you run a McDonald's, just like every other McDonald's. And he was one of the people that was instrumental in founding Hamburger U. Henry Ford, another very recognizable example with Ford Motor Company. And he had a guy named James Cousins. And James was that guy who he made it happen. And he solved all the other details. He knew nothing about cars. So Henry was the guy that knew all about cars, but James was the guy that knew all about business and making it happen and getting stuff done. So he was responsible for a lot of the revolutionary ideas that came out of Ford Standard Oil Company. One of the classic industrialists of early America, John D. Rockefeller, had a guy named Henry Flagler. And later in life, someone asked John Rockefeller, where this idea came from and how he was able to do it. And he basically gave tons of credit to Henry Flagler, if it hadn't been for Henry, never would have been able to make it happen. So those are some name brands that a lot of folks will recognize. And when you think about those examples, I don't want you to think about them in their all grown up state. I want you to think about them back in that early state when they're just getting started and they're going up the early cycles of climbing and growing the organization, figuring it out and putting it together. And that's when a lot of these visionary integrator combinations were really impactful for them.

So let's delve a little bit more deeply into integrators. And I know that from some of your descriptions that the people coming in haven't known a ton about that particular business. But as you said, they know business. And you use a term which I thought was absolutely brilliant called organizational lucidity. They just have a real sense of how the organization needs to be created, needs to be designed in order to fulfill the purpose. So talk more about what is the mindset or the perspective of a great integrator.

Yeah, so they're really all about making it happen. And we've done lots of interviews and talked to lots of real life examples of these combinations. And when I talk to a good integrator that's working with a visionary that's just throwing new ideas out all the time, they have this sense of they really value and appreciate this never ending flow of new ideas and this big vision of where to go. And it's almost like they don't have to worry about that. They know that that's going to come. So then they can just take it and plug it into a much more executional oriented plan and build the structure, develop the communication, put together all the pieces that need to be put together to organize the rest of the team to go and make that happen. And that's what they get their biggest payback from, is seeing it become real. And so it frees the visionary up to do that thing they naturally do. And meanwhile, you know, the integrator is absolutely operating in their space. They're operating in their unique ability, to use Dan's term. And it's hard a lot of times for a visionary to recognize that somebody else actually loves doing that piece of it. Right. Because they look at that side of things and they're like, yuck, that's no fun. Why would I want to do that. Why would anybody want to do that? But the reality is there are folks out there that they are absolutely designed to make that stuff happen, and they love it and they're energized by it, and they want an opportunity to do it. And they can create a tremendous value when given that chance.

Do they need to be as front stage usually as the visionary?

So it depends. That's one of those things that can kind of move back and forth more. Typically, the visionary is more front stage in comparison to the integrator. Now the integrator is going to be more front stage in comparison to a lot of the rest of the organization.

Right.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

So it's a little bit of a relative question there. But then you also. We see situations where certain things kind of flow back and forth between the visionary and the integrator. So there's some things that are sort of stereotypical and we almost always see them in one camp or the other. But then there are certain things that really could end up in either, and it's just a matter of where the energy and interest lies for that particular combination. I've got a video that I put out this week talking about what we call the two piece puzzle. And we really like to think of these two folks as a two piece puzzle. So if you can imagine me holding one hand with my fingers pointed down, sort of in front of my face, and I take my other hand with my four fingers pointed up in front of my face and joining the two together. So it's a two piece puzzle. And that edge where the two pieces connect is absolutely unique to those individuals and to that combination. So they have to work that out. The visionary really has to understand who they are and what their shape is, if you will. And they're looking for the perfect match that sort of fills in all the gaps. And it's a nice, perfect fit between the two. So they cover all the things that they need. They have enough of everything that they need between the two of them to really give the organization all that it needs.

That's awesome. I can totally imagine that fit. Now, as a lot of people know, I'm a huge fan of people knowing themselves and having tools to help identify those characteristics. So I'm a big fan of profiles. I know that you mentioned a whole bunch in the book. All my favorites. Thank you. Is there a particular Colby profile or disc profile or strengths finder profile that characterizes a visionary or that characterizes an integrator, or is it unique?

Yeah. So I'm going to say it's unique because we don't have a definitive answer for you at this point. We're looking and we're really studying a lot of the different solutions or tools or models, if you will, that are profiling people in different dimensions in different respects. But I don't have just a one size fits all answer. It's really a lot of shades of gray. And then what's important is really understanding for the visionary first, really understanding what they look like and where they're strong, where they have tendencies to maybe really push or really dominate, where their natural energy flow goes and then making sure that they have somebody really that offsets that. We don't want somebody that's a clone of them. We don't want somebody that just reinforces, kind of doubles down on the particular kind of pattern that they have. We want somebody that can really develop a creative tension with it and sort of pull it in the other direction and challenge it a little bit. So there's no one answer. We think of the different ones as sort of, you want to use them in combination to kind of triangulate on the truth as things go on and we see more and more examples. I may have a better answer for you on that in the future. But right now it's just the more information we can get from those really strong profiling companies, the better.

Yeah, if you need any help with that, let me know. I'm interested. Well, it's kind of interesting as you're talking because I'm thinking about some very typical quote unquote quick start entrepreneurs who partnered with some fact finder follow through integrators. But then I also think about Dan Sullivan and Bob Smith, co founders of Strategic coach. Dan's a 10, quick start. Babs is a 9. She's in charge of running the company, Dan's in charge of running the program. And you know, she wouldn't be your typical integrator from an execution standpoint, but she's the one who's put the team in place who does execute and that would blow apart any previous model I might have come up with. So I can see the different ways. I know Gino and I know the team a little bit. So I know EOS is kind of unique in that regard as well. You know, as soon as I come up with a model, I can find a contradiction to it. So I don't know that there is a particular one other than I think it's critical however you do that profiles or some other way just to go back to what you said, everyone should really understand what they're best at and what their passion is. So what we would call unique ability. And when you can stay within that zone, we know well the rocket fuel that that provides. And then when you have to be surrounded, in order for any of us to do our own unique ability, we need to be surrounded by other people who are unique in all the areas that we're not. Obviously, an integrator is going to be that key person from an organizational standpoint who does that.

Absolutely right. So if we can have the visionary operating in their unique ability coupled with an integrator operating in their unique ability, and between the two having all of the stuff that we need in full complement with each other, then that just sets the tone for the rest of the organization and we start building that unique ability organization as a good strategic coach company would.

Yes. Music to my ears. I love it. Now, I'm always interested in the relationship between the two, and there is a dynamic tension. You said creative tension, which I thought I wrote down. Like, that is such a fun, nominal term to describe it. Because if someone's out in the future and new ideas that they want done yesterday, the other person's like, hang on a second. Let's get into the structure. How does that work? How can they not drive each other insane and have this be a productive partnership? What are some of the signposts for making it work, and what are some of the things to avoid? To have it avoid being a battle every day.

Yes. So the first one is just to recognize that there's tremendous tension built into the fact that you're so different to begin with. Right. So if one is all gas and the other one is much more brake, then there's going to be a lot of frustration on both sides. And so just go in, eyes open, and understand that that friction is going to exist. It's good. You want that. And then the structure we're going to give you is all about blending that friction into something that's really positive. And it energizes and creates a charge in the organization rather than something that creates. Creates a destructive force. So this is really where the five rules come in, Shannon. So the five rules are all about how we really maximize that relationship and get the most out of it. So if you want, we can kind of step through some of those.

I'd love to, because this is really the meat, everyone. So if you don't have a pen handy, grab one. Because the five rules are gold. Make sure everyone captures this. This is really important.

Great. So the first of the five rules is what we call stay on the same page, the tool here, the rule is a tool we call the same page meeting. So the commitment is the vision the integrator commit to. Once a month they're going to sit down together, they're going to block out two to four hours or really as long as it takes for them to get back on the same page. So each of them comes prepared with their own list of issues. Whatever things they're not clear about, whatever things they're frustrated about, whatever things they just want to discuss and kick around, whatever things that they don't currently feel like they're quite on the same page about. So they both make their list, they come into this meeting together and they begin with a little bit of a deep check in. And so it's, I want you to think of it as a really human, relationship oriented kind of a check in exchange of information. So this is sort of a business marriage. I actually have one client. The visionary calls his integrator his business spouse. And so it's that level of a relationship. So if we're going to be that close, then we really need to understand what's going on with each other. So let's talk about, hey, here's kind of where my head's at, here's what's going on. Here's some good stuff that's going on. Here's some stuff that I'm kind of wrestling with and really know each other and be connected. So that sort of sets the stage then for a very rich conversation around these issues. So each, you know, the visionary integrator take their issues list and they really combine them to make one big issues list. And then they begin to prioritize and pick the most impactful things first and just chip away at it and take on issues one at a time as they work through them, making sure that they get on the same page around each issue and whatever action steps need to be taken going forward. And they basically stay in that room together until they've knocked them all out. So they come out of that meeting, out of that same page meeting completely, 100%, crystal clear, back on the same page with each other. So if anybody else from the outside was to ask one of them a question, they should respond in almost exactly the same way because they're perfectly aligned. So that gives the visionary confidence that the integrator can go out and act on their behalf. And the integrator is confident that they don't need to go ask. They Already know. And so they can go and they can do the things that they need to do to make things happen. All right. So then over the course of a month, that one same pageness begins to fray a little bit. And so by the time four weeks rolls around, we're back in a room together and we're doing the same thing again.

This is so intriguing to me because I can just imagine being a fly on the wall in that meeting. So a couple of things, because I sometimes mediate between people, leaders within organizations, because I know you've got some great examples of when this has worked, but I imagine at least for people who are relatively new to one another, that they kind of have to learn how to speak the same language. They probably need to have a great degree of trust from for one another and respect those would be something need to have. In real sense, there can't be a lot of ego in the room. It's got to be based on let's you know, we've got a purpose here, we're on a mission, there's a purpose to our relationship. And so that willingness to be transparent and honest is, I'm sure, another success criteria.

Yeah, it really is. And so if you think about it, everything that we're going to do between the visionary and integrator is framed within this idea that we're after whatever is going to serve the greater good and long term of the organization. If we're both fully committed to that, that's going to keep us inside the lines, if you will, of what's going to keep us on the road and going to where we want to go. We start to get away from that and serve our own self interest or wherever ego takes us or whatever. That's really not pursuing the greater good or the long term of the organization. So that's what would take us off track. So we just have to keep our eyes open, watch for that. In the beginning, we must be patient. It will take time. We must begin with a level of trust for each other and recognizing that that will obviously build and become much more natural over time as we have shared experience. But we go in with eyes open, patient, trusting, respecting. And within this framework of pursuing the greater good and long term of the.

Organization, that is fantastic. I want to bring in something you and I chatted about just before we officially started the recording today. And that is what we call strategic coach. The four Cs. And the four Cs is just this growth process that we all go through. We simply named it, which is that you Make a commitment. All of us have to go through the courage phase because we don't know how to do this yet. Out of that we develop new capabilities that give us a higher level of confidence. So I imagine at the beginning they've made the commitment to work together, but there's going to be some courage required to have these honest conversations, to get back on the same page, to hash out things and to really get aligned. Because that's what it takes.

Yeah, there's no question. I think this is actually a great example of the four season practice. And you know, these conversations, they take all different forms. So you watch someone in an early pair and the depth may not be quite as deep in the beginning. If you were to come back and look at those same two, three years later, the depth and rawness of what they're talking about would have a whole different texture. So they've got to kind of work through that. And that's really a capability that they're developing. Right. And it takes courage to do that. It takes the commitment. I mean, so it's the whole cycle of the four Cs in play. And then when they come out, they see that it works and they're able to get closer to what they want. They're more confident and it kind of reinforces and goes again. We also see some of these same page meetings that are really kind of easy and stuff just happens because they're very well aligned. There's nothing that gets too contentious. But then other times, I mean, they can get frankly kind of nasty because the two are seeing things so differently. And it's just so hard to understand where the other one's coming from. And so there's a whole process where we really have to work as humans to be open and listen and try to understand and really try to come back to that question of what's going to serve the greater good.

Fabulous. I love that. And your point number two, I think is quite profound to make sure that relationship stays solid as well. If you could talk about the second one.

Yeah. So we call this one no end runs. And so the picture I want you to have is a. We call it an accountability chart where the visionary is at the top of the organization, the integrator is directly accountable to them. And then as we mentioned before, the other leaders of the organization are directly accountable to the integrator. So we have the levels of accountability in the organization. So an end run happens when someone really completely disregards that and goes around or makes an end run. Let's use a Specific example where we're talking about the integrator and someone making an end run around the integrator. So one way that that will happen is one of the senior leaders will basically not like what they're hearing from the integrator. And so they'll go right past them and they'll go straight to the visionary, which, oh, by the way, they've been doing for years. Right, because there wasn't an integrator maybe there before. So they just go back to their old way. They go straight to the visionary and the visionary is confronted with someone coming to complain to them about the integrator or complain about the answer that they were given, or maybe they didn't even check with them and they're just coming to them to vent or ask guidance or whatever it might be. And so it puts the visionary in a kind of a tricky situation because if they deal with this, if they manage this the way that they have historically kind of fall back into their old habits, they are effectively going to cut their integrator off at the knees. They're going to really inhibit their ability to be effective in that role. So we prescribe a solution that we call the question. And the question is simply this. When someone makes an end run around the integrator, comes to the visionary. We want the visionary to hear them out, listen to what they have to say, say, and then without giving them direction or taking and holding their complaints, say back to them. Okay, I hear you. Now who's going to tell them? Are you going to tell them or am I going to tell them? Because somebody needs to tell them and basically direct them right back to this integrator that they were trying to go around. And Shannon, here's what we see. When a visionary will adopt that simple rule, that simple practice within about 3, 30 days, they have completely driven this kind of behavior out of the organization because people see it won't work and so they just quit trying it.

Okay, you just got two thumbs up for that one.

Now let me give you another example. Because you know so many visionaries, this one will probably really resonate with you. So the other habit that we got to watch out for is the visionary going around the integrator to go somewhere out in the organization and begin to drive direct things and start to give instruction and basically pull an end run around the integrator. There's going to be a lot of visionaries that are going to really struggle with this one because they just want to do it. They've been able to walk freely all around the organization and tell people to do whatever they wanted to do, whenever they wanted to do. And that can also really inhibit the effectiveness of your integrator. There's a dynamic that we call organizational whiplash, where, you know, the visionary is looking one direction, and so the whole organization begins to look in that direction, and then being a good visionary, pretty quickly their head turns completely the opposite direction. And so the whole organization then begins to look that other direction, and then the next thing you know, the visionary is looking back in the other direction. And so it's just back and forth and back and forth. That's one of the challenges that visionaries naturally have. The integrator is there to be a buffer for that and to dampen that. And so we want the visionary to resist this urge of making an end run around the integrator and going out in the organization and creating that whiplash all over again.

It's inappropriate to laugh out loud, but I was just dying as you're talking, just how many conversations have I had with leadership teams where they describe exactly that situation where the whole company has been the visionary sandbox? They just got to talk to all the Playmates and completely ignore the person they put in charge of the sandbox. So, yes, I'm laughing because it's so true. So I'm really happy you wrote Rocket Fuel, by the way. And I actually watched your video on organizational whiplash. It's excellent, by the way. Oh, cool.

Thank you.

For those of you that hopefully run out and order or buy Rocket Fuel, you have this really cool thing where you can sign up for the LinkedIn conversation, really the. What would you call it? Not a message board, but the community. And you get some really cool stuff from Mark as a result of that, including a great video on organizational whiplash. So that's powerful. So it's easy for the team to go to the visionary. It's easy for the visionary to go to the team because that's been the old habit structure. Now, does the integrator ever do an end run around the visionary, or is that just not possible?

Well, you know, it's really unlikely. The other structures in place in the accountability chart is what we call the owner's box. And so, you know, there's all different kinds of ownership structures that may be in play. And so if the integrator were to try to bypass the visionary and go directly to the ownership of the company, which may or may not include the visionary, I suppose you might consider that an end run or go in the other direction. If they're making a play around one of their senior leaders. It's kind of the same thing. Right. So we want them to avoid that. We want them to empower and coach the leaders that are directly accountable to them and work first with them and through them to the rest of the organization. That's to be most effective and really most fun for everybody.

Well, and when you've got two people who are on the same page, the team will learn, because you've eliminated politics, if nothing else, will learn that they're going to get the same response from either person. So they might as well go with the integrators because that's the person who's probably going to be more accessible to them. So that does make sense. Now, if there is a conflict, who breaks the tie?

Yeah. So this is our third rule. The integrator is the tiebreaker. And here's when this will come up. Shannon. So let's say among the senior leadership team that sales and marketing is saying we should go left and operations is saying we should go right. Because we know it's pretty common that sales and marketing and operations see the world in slightly different ways. So, you know, first choice is for them to try to work that out. So between those leaders within the framework of the overall organizational strategy, they try to get on the same page. If they're unable to, then what we ask is that the integrator serve as the tiebreaker. So they basically hear the arguments, they hear the cases from both sides and taking it all again within this objective of trying to maximize the greater good and long term of the organization, they make a decision. So it keeps us from being stuck. Right. It keeps us from moving. We don't get paralyzed by the fact that we can't 100% agree on everything. So a decision is made and we move forward. So the real rule here is that the visionary is giving the integrator the authority to do this and the support to do this. And they can feel comfortable doing that and have confidence doing that because they're on the same page. So it's the point you just made earlier where because they've invested so much time and energy in communicating with each other and basically becoming almost of one mind in terms of where they're trying to go with this thing, then the integrator really can make the best decision, can make the right decision. Statistically, if we sort of look across everything because the integrator, their ear is just closer to the ground. They're hearing more stuff in the organization day to day, they really are in a better position to make a better decision than the visionary is. And it really pulls the visionary up out of that, keeps them from getting sucked into a bunch of stuff that they really just don't need to get sucked into. And it frees them to spend their time and energy doing the stuff that they love to do that the organization really needs them to do.

There's a big letting go process for the visionary to let that integrator take over. And I'm sure that they're scared half the time. I mean, I tease my clients all the time about having a death grip on certain decisions and delegations. I mean, obviously being on the same page, but a month could even feel like a long time sometimes. So how do you coach visionaries to just have courage, fulfill the commitment, stay on the same page? How do you walk them through that process?

Yeah, again, it's awareness that it's going to take a little time. It's good, steady communication between the visionary, the integrator. There may be sort of a path of escalation in terms of how much authority you give to the integrator. You don't necessarily give it all at once. You may give a little bit more over time. We have some folks that literally they'll bring an integrator in, and their job for the first three months is sit there and not say anything, but just listen to everything that's going on.

Right.

And just to soak it all in and really get tuned into what's happening. That requires a tremendous amount of patience. Right. So most will move a little bit faster than that. But you got to work it in. You've got to be sure you're on the same page. And really, here's a big discovery that I made, Shannon. In the preparation work for the book, I came in thinking that a lot of the hesitation in letting go was a control. And it was about, you know, I really want to make this decision. I really want to drive this. And as I talked to more and more visionaries, what I learned was it wasn't about control, it was about trust. And they really wanted to delegate authority. They really wanted to delegate more and more things. They just had difficulty trusting that whoever they were delegating it to would do it right and would do it consistent with their wishes and their direction. When you dig a little deeper and you start to explore what that's all about, somewhere in their history, maybe multiple times, they've basically been quick to hand something off. And as soon as they felt like they had somebody that had Taken it. Then they took their hands off and let it go. And then before long, that person dropped it and it broke. And they're sitting there, the visionary is looking at this thing shattered all over the floor, and they're going, wait a minute, that was my thing. You just broke. And so they sort of get gun shy, and they're more and more hesitant to let go just because they don't trust. So through the same page meetings, through that communication, through that fitting of the two puzzle pieces, getting that all right together between the vision and integrator, it goes miles toward establishing that trust foundation where they are more and more comfortable letting things go. And as they do, and they see that it works, and they see that here's someone who can take care of it just as I would, or as well as I would, or maybe even better than I would, then they become more and more free to let more and more things go.

Yeah. And I completely agree that it's a trust, not a control issue. Most of them are desperate to give something away. But it's that I've heard it described as people abdicate, don't delegate. So they, instead of just delegating it, which means you're still kind of in communication, they abdicate, and then it breaks. And then they feel like they have to take it back again. And that's. We can call that delegation whiplash, because.

It comes back again. There you go.

There you go. New term.

There you go.

But it's. Yeah. And that. Oh, again, I've heard this umpteen times over the years, so that's fabulous. I appreciate that. All right, so what's rule number four?

Rule number four, you're an employee when working in the business. And so this is for those visionaries and sometimes integrators who are also owners of the business. Partnership is sort of the classic example where you have some number of partners that are also working in the business. The bad habit here is they get confused when they're serving in their role in their seat in the accountability chart, and they all of a sudden throw their owner hat back on and just make a decision or give a direction, and they sort of break all the rules. They feel like they can do this because they're an owner, but the effect that it has on the organization is it really sends a strange mixed signal to everyone else that, okay, the structure we have in place doesn't matter. It doesn't apply to them. The rules don't apply to them. And particularly when you have a couple of different ownership people sitting in different seats, that can get very confusing. All of a sudden someone feels like, well, gee, who do I really need to go talk to about this? Who am I really accountable to? They may feel like they're accountable to three or four people, and it just gets really confusing. It introduces tons of friction and really a negative energy into the organization. So to keep that straight, we use the concept of hats. So it's all about remembering which hat you wear. If I'm the head of sales, then I'm wearing the head of sales hat. Even if I am also an owner in the company, as that head of sales, I'm accountable for the sales responsibilities to the integrator, and the folks on the sales team are accountable to me, and I'm going to manage them just as anybody else we would put in that seat would manage them. So I need to live up to those same expectations that I would have for anyone else we hired off the street. And really, instead of taking advantage of the fact I'm an owner to kind of get away with stuff, I want to set the example for how we want everybody else in the organization to play.

Oh, I love that. That is so fabulous.

So as it relates to the visionary integrator specifically, I mean, this could apply to any seat in the organization where we have someone sitting. As it applies to the visionary integrator specifically, there is this concept of an owner's box. So when there are issues that are, you know, let's say, reserved to the owner's box, whether that is raising more equity, bringing on outside investors, selling the company, buying a building, you know, all different kinds of things that someone may want to reserve as a decision to the owner's box. The visionary integrator are real clear on whatever that list of things is, and they know if that stuff comes up, then that's where they're going to deal with it. They're going to have an owner's box meeting, and they'll deal with it there. And everything else that they're doing within the rest of the accountability chart of the organization is executing on the vision, executing on the strategy, and making all that other stuff happen that gets us where we're trying to go.

That is such a useful distinction. What kind of decisions go in which box? Just even that concept right there is such a useful takeaway. And owner's decisions go in the owner's box, and that's a separate meeting. Just knowing when does do that, as opposed to trying to handle everything at once, which I think is what a lot of people try and do. And then the other thing that you mentioned, the cost is the confusion it creates within the organization when people just do things kind of willy nilly or outside the role. And if I hear complaints from team members or team leaders, it's on that issue. So I love that you have a solution for it.

Great. Yeah. It's so true. In fact, we've got one case that I've seen where there are three partners and the folks in the organization, sort of tongue in cheek, called it the three headed monster because, you know, they never knew who to deal with or what to deal with. And then, you know, finally these guys kind of got it clear and they were then finally celebrating that the three headed monster was dead because now we have clarity around how decisions are made.

Oh my goodness. I think I know that company.

Yeah. There's more than one.

There are actually, unfortunately. But it goes back to number one. People aren't the same page. It becomes a three headed monster. So that's very true. Now I think number five addition to number one might be my favorite. So can you talk about number five?

Yeah. So number five is simply maintain mutual respect. The idea here is although the visionary is at the top of the accountability chart, the integrator is accountable to the visionary. It's not that the visionary treats the integrator as their lackey or something lesser than they are. They're really in this thing together and they're a team. They're joined at the hip and they're going out and they're making all this stuff happen. They're both working really hard. They're both bringing their special gifts and without each other, they're just not going to be able to do the same things that they can do together. So we want to maintain mutual respect between those two. And again, that's where that constant communication comes into play and working very, very hard to stay on the same page.

Mm. And imagine it takes, at least at the beginning, some constant vigilance because it's easy to have habits of doing end runs or going around people or acting like an owner instead of the employee in the role. So I imagine it takes a certain. Well, vigilance is not my favorite word. Consciousness is probably a better one. Awareness and ability to kind of. Well, much as some of us hate to do, play inside the lines sometimes, make sure we stay on track for that.

That's even hard for you to say out loud.

It is, actually. You're quite right. Stumbled over that one, didn't I? So true. Stay inside the lines. How do you say that? Yeah, I love it.

I think you're right. It's really about awareness and sending a very genuine signal that you're both committed. And so we're aware that there's going to be things we're going to stumble over, but we know we're both committed to making this thing work and not being afraid to raise the issues that you need to talk about. Right. So if there's something you're scared to bring up because you're afraid it's going to inflame things and you don't want to deal with that or whatever, that's not a good sign. We've got to be able to put it on the table. It's just stuff. And because we're both after the same thing, which is the greater good, and long term, we're confident that we can find a way to work through it.

There's some coaching I really appreciate from Colby, from Kathy, Colby and the Colby profile, and that is that one of the things that really makes relationships work, especially when there are very large differences, which Colby helps to identify in terms of how people problem solve, is to also maintain a sense of humor, to laugh at how you do things or how you see things compared to other people do things. And it's actually to bring some lightness and some levity to it, as opposed to thinking something's wrong just because it's not your way. I love mutual respect, and I also know for myself, a sense of humor is fairly essential to that process.

I absolutely agree.

If only to laugh at myself, by the way. That's where it's important, too. So. So now that we've talked about this amazing partnership and potential, how do people find each other? This is probably one of the great mysteries of the world. How does a visionary find integrator? And how does an integrator find a visionary?

Yes. So a couple of points that I'd want to make here. The first one is, and you hit on it earlier, I think just sort of intuitively you may be aware that integrators are the scarce commodity. They're the ones that we don't have quite enough of. And based on some of the statistics that we look at, the ratio may be as wide as 4 to 1. So for four visionaries out there looking for an integrator, there's one animal out there in the world that kind of can do that and then take that another step, because, remember, we're trying to make the two puzzle pieces fit together, and every puzzle piece looks different. So the message we want people to get from that is don't wait, go now and begin to look and feel. Find this person that's going to be able to meet that need for you. From there, we actually lay out a seven step connection process in the book. So we just kind of walk you through one thing at a time. The stuff you need to get your head around to be able to go out there and make this happen. The first part of it is really getting into answering the questions about what the company needs and what you need as the visionary and what your puzzle piece looks like. Does that make sense?

Totally. And actually I think your criteria are brilliant. I don't want to give it all away because I want people to go buy the book, but I do like one of them is unique ability readiness. So the ready to be 100% you. So I love that that term is absolutely with the proper registered trademark. Thank you.

Absolutely. Wouldn't do it any other way.

Yeah, there's financial readiness, there's psychological readiness, there's lifestyle readiness. So how ready are you really to let go, to share, to have someone else partner up with you I think is really critical. And I'm sure there's a different scale for each of those. Now, the one I want you to actually talk about a little bit is compensation. Because you make some really important points about how do you pay for or compensate the person who's going to be such an incredible leverage to the visionary. And I know you put a formula in here which I think is really important for people to hear now. And some integrators may be getting a raise after this one. So talk about compensation and what people expect to pay and what's realistic, not in terms of dollars, but in terms of percentages. You give some good information here.

Yeah. So the thing that I want you to think about first is we get a lot of questions about the structure of the compensation. So does there need to be ownership? Does there need to be equity? Does there need to be something that gives them more of a piece of the action? And what we find there is that's really not essential, it's not required. We see all different patterns. We see everything that would range from, you know, 100% fixed comp to on the other end, 100% variable comp. And then, you know, absolutely no equity or a whole bunch of equity. So it's just, there's no one answer to that. But the thing that I think you're touching on that we want you to realize is the visionary has a tendency to underestimate the market. Value of the person who's going to come in and do this stuff, based on our experience, they underestimate it to, to the tune of about 50%.

Wow.

So visionary, whatever number you're thinking of, that is going to be fair market value for that integrator, Dial that up by about 1.5 and that's going to be closer to the actual mark based on what we're seeing.

I love that. And one of the ways that I think, and I think you actually talk about this in the book too, I always look at not the cost, but what is the investment and what is the return. So if you look at, for a visionary, look at, okay, if you actually get to pursue this idea and make it happen, how much new revenue does that bring into the organization? Or if you're able to free up your time and get time back, what is that worth to you? If you don't have to handle the hassles of this team or that project or that vendor, what does that mean to you financially? And you've more than paid for that person after probably about two items. So I think looking at it from an investment, which we talk a lot about with regards to teamwork, a great team member is an investment, not a cost. Now, there are some not so good investments, some bad investments and some good investments, but it's never, ever a cost. And our job with any kind of investment, especially financial, is we want to increase the value. And people are absolutely no different. So I'm completely in alignment with you on that one. That's awesome.

Right? One of the things that we have people do that kind of makes that easy is they have their issue list, sort of their running issue list of all these things they're trying to solve or take advantage of or make go away. And if they'll simply go down that list and put a dollar item for how much they would pay to make that go away or how much they would benefit if that thing would move forward. And just like you said, pretty quickly they go down, they start adding up the numbers. It pretty quickly surpasses whatever the investment would be to bring on the integrator.

Especially if someone's been plateaued for a long time or stuck and just really frustrated. I think that I'm like, you, like start now looking for your right fit. I think that's powerful. So one question on that is what size of company or what point does it make sense for a visionary to start looking for an integrator or what size of company should integrators start to look For a visionary, if that's an aspiration someone has.

So again, there's kind of no one size fits all answer here. I'll tell you that size wise, we're kind of looking the sweet spot is companies between 10 and 250 employees.

Okay.

So all the different kinds of dynamics that tend to go with an organization of that size, it absolutely applies in there. Now, having said that, we have situations where companies are much smaller than that and much, much larger than that. So depending on the situation and the visionary and the complexity that's going on in their organization, in their market, there are lots of reasons why it can be applicable outside that range.

Got it. Can one visionary have more than one integrator or is it always a one to one relationship?

Always a one to one.

Okay.

Part of that is it really comes back to accountability. And you know, if you really think about good, strong, healthy accountability, it's an eyeball to eyeball thing. So I asked my clients if they were accountable for something to one person or if they were accountable for the same thing to two people. In which situation are they actually more accountable? And people sort of scratch their heads. And interestingly, you know, it seems like about half an hour, half will pick one or the other. About half will pick accountable to one person, and then about half will pick accountable to two people. And then I ask them how many of them have children. And the ones who have children are instantly familiar with the mom and dad game.

Yes.

Where the child is accountable for something. And they go to mom and they say, oh, dad and I already talked about that. We've got that all straightened around. And they go back to take talk to dad and they say, oh, mom and I already talked about. All of a sudden it just gets really slippery. So we want great one to one accountability because then it's just very clear, very straightforward. And that same principle applies between the visionary and the integrator.

I love it. So I think I interrupted you and you said there's a couple ways when people are looking for one another. You know, there's really assessing the readiness. What's the next phase?

Yeah, so we're understanding how much visionary the company needs. We have a tool in there we call the visionary spectrum. We use profiles so the visionary understands their profile. We show an example where they actually create a wish list. So they pour out on a piece of paper all the stuff that they wish would go away and be solved by their integrator. They use that in combination with their profile to develop the edge shape of their puzzle piece. And then they begin to develop the target profile for who they're looking for. This is where working with some of the great profiling companies out there can really help. So then we start to put candidates up against that ideal profile, that target profile, and see how well they fit. We also have a great job description in the book where it's a good starter, seven points that we work through with a set of EOS implementers, profiling expert, and a lot of people who really have good direct experience with this. To give you a really good starting point for what that job description would look like for a sort of a stereotypical integrator. The readiness factors you hit on, and then really you go out in the world and you begin to search and find. And that can take a lot of different forms. Maybe you work with a recruiter, maybe you just put the word out in your network, your sphere of influence. There's a lot of different ways you can get the word out there and make that happen. And then you begin to work your way through them until ultimately you find who you think is that perfect fit for you. Then there's a process to onboard them. Let's get them on board, let's ramp them up. And that's where this idea comes into play of sort of different paces that you might expect them to come up the curve. And a lot of patience is required here. It's not going to happen overnight. We outline some specific milestones in the book. Particularly noteworthy is it's generally kind of like 12 months, you know, right around that one year mark, that. That seems to be kind of a tipping point where the visionary will finally feel like, okay, they're getting it, it's clicking, it's beginning to do what I want it to do. So it's really important that they manage their expectations going in, and don't expect that as soon as that person shows up, all problems are instantly going to be solved.

You mean it doesn't happen overnight?

It doesn't happen overnight, Shannon. It happens instantly, overnight. At the end of about, I don't know, some number of months and maybe years.

I love it. So how can people maximize the relationship? So say you've gone through the work. And by the way, that wish list, I looked at the list and I was intimidated. I was like, oh, my gosh. I clearly am not an integrator because it's quite the set of capabilities and thank goodness they have a team. So it was impressive to me. So say you've gone through the work, you've made your wish list You've profiled and figured out who's your complement and you found someone. What do people need to do to be able to actually maximize that relationship? I mean, you've got the 90 day onboarding, the one year check in. So what else do people need to kind of know or be aware of to make this really work?

Yes, I want you to think about it as it's really a never ending cycle of laying out a plan, executing against that plan, getting on the same page, and then realigning the plan in accordance with that. So that wheel sort of turns on and on forever at a high level. What's happening. We talked a little bit earlier about blending that natural friction into power. And I want you to think about it as it's like polarity. So actually the farther apart, so the more different that visionary and integrator are, the greater the potential charge of the two, which is really powerful. We have to work at it. So maximizing is all about taking those five rules that we went through and living them, driving that into the DNA of the visionary, the integrator, and really the whole organization that that's the way we do things. That's the way we make sure that that organization or that relationship is absolutely rock solid and 100% on the same page. And then we surround that with what we call the five tools. So between you've got the five rules and the five tools, and quickly in the five tools we get clarity on this accountability chart tool that you've heard me mention a couple of times, that's really all about getting structure around the right people, people in the right seats, to use Jim Collins terms, and really clear understanding across the organization. We have total clarity. We know that all the stuff that needs to happen in the organization is happening. We can see very easily where it's happening. So we're on the same page about that second tool is what we call the core questions. And so we want to be 100% on the same page around what the core values are of the organization, what our core focus is, our greater purpose and the niche for our, our business, where we want to be 10 years from now, what does that 10 year target look like, who our ideal customer is, what our three uniques are that we bring to the marketplace, and then finally the picture of where we want to be three years from now. So kind of a long term vision, a midterm vision come out of that. And then We've got a 90 day World Rhythm of Priorities every 90 days, our quarterly priority cycle for how we're working on what's most important. Next, we have a weekly level 10 meeting rhythm that's keeping us all in sync, keeps those priorities right in front of us, helps us hold the team accountable for those priorities, and helps us address any obstacles that might be getting in the way. And then our fifth tool is simply a scorecard. A scorecard that gives us that handful of measures that we can look at and really have a sense of how we're doing as a company and the health of the company. Our things on track. Are things moving and pulsing the way that they should be? Are there issues that we need to be digging into, diving into, looking at sooner, hopefully ahead of time in some form where we can sort of head things off and be proactive rather than waiting until something knocks us off the road, into a ditch to finally be able to deal with it.

I love it. And I have to tell you, I am so impressed by your tools. I mean, Strategic Coach has dozens and dozens and dozens of tools. And I was. I was kind of poring through these ones. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is awesome. This will keep you on track, especially your scorecard, because that really is the bottom line. It's top line, it's bottom line, and that's your tracking. You know, what gets measured, improves. And so it really does give you a very strong handle on the success of the company. And I think that tool alone, but in conjunction with the other ones, is so powerful. So thank you for sharing those. That's great. Now, before I tell people how to get more great information, I'd love to hear about one or two successful stories where you saw a company who had a visionary and then partnered up with an integrator and just made the difference. Because I know you've got lots of those, but what's one of your favorites?

I'll point to John Pollock and Paul Boyd of Financial Gravity. And so here's a situation where John is what I would lovingly refer to as a flaming visionary. So, I mean, he is out there and all over the place. I mean, he. He is just a force of nature. And the ideas that come out of this man's head are just absolutely amazing. Just a creative genius, really. And then we began to introduce the concept of visionary integrator to him, and it really resonated. So he began to look, and he looked in his professional past, other folks that he had worked with and had a prior business relationship somewhere along the road, and he came back across a guy named Paul Boyd. Paul is one of the best integrators that I have ever seen. I mean, he's just really, really awesome at all the key capabilities there and just a perfect fit for John. And so he came in and began to step into that role. It actually, in this case, he began in a fractional format. So that's a concept that we introduce in the book. It's the idea that you don't have to necessarily bite it all off in one bite. But there are some companies out there that will actually provide a resource to you on a fractional basis so you can kind of get started and kind of feel your way into it. So that's how they started and it absolutely took off and it has gone gangbusters. And the things they've done with their business have been absolutely amazing. So there's some really interesting business opportunities that they've been able to take advantage of that they just. Otherwise there's no way they would have have been able to. And John's happier than he's ever been. He's doing the stuff that he loves to do and he's cranking out all those crazy new ideas and then Paul is taking the good ones and putting those into play and making them happen and protecting everybody from the crazy ones.

I love it.

So between them, they're just a wonderful visionary integrator combination and they're probably having.

A blast and are profitable and all those other great things too.

Absolutely. Absolutely. All indicators are thumbs up.

That's awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that because I always find it inspiring when there's real people in the roles and I get to know a little bit more about their company. And I know those people you're talking about well, I know people like them. So I love that picture because it's the dynamic duo of ideas plus execution that really makes it all come together. So thank you. Love that. So how can people learn more? How can they learn more from you? How can they get in touch with EOS and with Rocket Fuel? Let people know how they can connect with you?

Yes. So a couple ways. It's all in the book, so we'd love you to read Rocket Fuel. It actually just became available on Audible. I recorded the Audible version a couple months ago. So that got released I think on July 25th. So that one is out there. A lot of visionaries are probably like me. That's the way they consume most books anymore. I actually like to listen to books when I'm running on a trail and I'll listen to them normally at 1.5 to 2 times normal speed, which I don't necessarily recommend that for everybody, but it works for me. And then we'd love them to come see us on rocketfuelnow.com if you come to the website, that's where the assessments that you mentioned, Shannon, they can take the visionary assessment, take the integrator assessment, kind of see what their puzzle piece looks like, if you will. And if they've got folks who they're considering, maybe a visionary considering someone to be their integrator, send them there, have them take the integrator assessments as well. And you can also sign up there for our newsletter to get more information. That's how you're going to get some of the videos that Shannon, you've talked about, get our latest thinking really on visionaries and integrators, sign up for that private group, be a part of the community. Some really interesting discussions going on there, folks looking for integrators, folks looking for visionaries, folks talking about some of the challenges and things that you have to deal with along that journey. So a lot of really insightful comments and conversation going on there.

Fabulous. Well, I just have to thank you again. This hour has gone by really, really quickly. Just kind of amazing. You shared a ton of really powerful information. And again, for me, you've just really highlighted such an incredibly important part of entrepreneurial teamwork, particularly around leadership. And that whole visionary integrator distinction is so key. And to actually have the tools and the rules for how to make that a success, I think is just a huge value, value add and value creation. So thank you for your work. Thank Gino for his as well. And I'm super excited to have I like being able to have this conversation with people I know. So I love that you've written the book and taken the time and done the audible because for me, I feel like it leverages me. It gives me more tools to be able to talk about teamwork in a new way and to be able to say, hey, go read this, do this, follow these rules, use these tools because it just enhances everyone's productivity, totally frees them up to do their unique ability and really has people be their best selves and do what they're meant to do in the world. We both know what it's like to work with frustrated entrepreneurs or team members. So when I can find a solution, as you can tell, I get really, really excited. So again, thank you. Mark, I can't thank you enough for sharing your wisdom today.

Well, thank you so much, Shannon. It's been a real pleasure talking to you today.

Awesome. Thank you. Hi Shannon here, and thank you very much for listening. If you like what you heard today, please take a moment to rate the Team Success podcast on itunes. And we'd love it if you'd share the podcast with anyone else who could benefit. If you're interested in learning more about the Strategic Coach program for entrepreneurs, visit us at Strategic Coach or the Strategic Coach channel on YouTube. For free downloads and more team success strategies, visit teamsuccesshandbook.com.