40 Minutes Of No BS Lessons On Sales Systems & CRMs

Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to coffee for closers. Today I got a really good guest because it's like the things that keep sales going. And if you're a business owner or a sales guy and you're frustrated with the business owner that you work with because the tech in your business is retarded, you know, then we're going to find out a lot about just sort of like, you know, we were talking before about the tech debt that gets incurred in the sales operations and CRM and how much that affects leakage and just overall issues. And so this is Ed strengths. The moderate genius is like done. Does the tech for like Cole does all the tech for Taylor Welch, a bunch of other people and. Yeah, and helps dialer out with a myriad of tasks and projects, which is very handy.

But.

What's up, man?

Hey, good to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yeah, yeah. And you're in the middle of a fast.

Yes, in the middle of a fast. So if I get angry in the middle, I'm sorry, I apologize.

Start rage monkeying out just like extra CRM. Yeah, stupid. So yeah, man. So. So give it. Give us a bit of a. Give it a bit of a background on how you became to be kind of the. The tech guide to the gurus.

All right, cool. Well, back in like 2018, I kind of. I got kind of, I guess into. I got sold into my first like high ticket offer. Okay, that was. This is a funny story I like, I like to tell. It was Cole Gordon who is now.

Like, you know, the.

One of the gods of sales. He was the sales guy at the time that. That tried to enroll me. Cole and I are friends, so I tell this story to his clients and whatnot. He tried to enroll me. I think it was three times. He was actually brand new working at the offer that he was at within the first couple months. And then I ended up speaking to the offer owner who was Taylor Welch at the time. Taylor enrolled me and kept half of Colston or something on the close dude.

So I bet that my Taylor feel very good about it.

Oh, yes, yes. So that was basically like my first experience with like being sold into a high ticket offer. And then from there, I think in 2019. That was in 2018 and 2019. I started just really helping at that time. It was like pipedrive setups, a lot of like many chat type of stuff. Just kind of like got into that play back when you could actually use many jet, you know, effectively because Facebook had no rules and stuff like that. Kind of like the wild west of Internet marketing back then. So. And then from there really like Cole kind of really helped me get started and I really, like, I owe a lot to him for just like recommendations, referrals from back then when he left what was traffic funnels at the time. He started his own offer. I was one of his first clients in his new offer. And then from there we just kind of like became friends and.

Yeah.

Built businesses at the same time. So.

Yeah. And somehow he got rich out of it. I'm sure there's. You have a joke that all money rolls to call eventually.

Somehow all money ends up with doesn't.

Matter what you're doing. When I go to the shops and I do my grocery shopping, somehow Cole Gordon makes some money off that. He's the business coach, the guy who owns Coles or something, you know. So. Yeah. Yeah, Cole's a great dude. Like, you know, I was, I guess he was a competitor of mine for years, but like, just always super chill. And I remember like, you know, we kind of had like a tribal, A bit of a tribalistic seventh level. And it was like us versus them. I never really bought into it. I was always just like, okay, the boys, like, they like that, so like let them have it. And then I remember, like the guys, like they really wanted me to not like Cole. And I was like, he's just a nice guy. And then, you know, and then like the more I met him, the more, you know, I liked him. He's just like one of the most chill humans I've ever met. So he's cool. Same with Taylor. Taylor's a great dude as well. Yeah, Taylor's super easy going. I don't know if he used to be, but he's now. We've had a few chats about that.

Yeah, I mean, I've known Taylor for. Since then as well and you know, a lot of being a client, but also like now being friends as well with him. Yeah, he's changed. He's changed a lot.

Yeah, yeah, it's good. You know, I actually talked to him about it like being. I said like, you know, the. I've run a big business. Like what he has, you know, not many people like in sort of. We can, we can chat about like kind of unique experiences of running those like hypergrowth large sales organizations. And I was like, I don't know how you did at the age you did. Like, I was significantly older and more experienced than you and I did it and like, I found it difficult. I would have been a Nightmare. If I 25, 26, like whatever he was, I was like, that would have been the worst. But yeah. So like what, what sort of got you into the tech side? Because you know, it's sort of, I think like in high ticket specifically there is a uniquely terrible, I guess, tech ops, sales ops environment. And I think it's a sort of like it ends up being the guy who can do it does it and then that compounds into congratulations, you're now the tech guy of an eight figure company. And it's like the dude can barely use Zapier. I mean, I know at seventh level we had a guy running it for ages and like it was like it was just zaps, spreadsheets and everything was duct tape. And like I think the zap bill was like something outrageous, like 20 grand a month or something. It was outrageous. And it's like looking back, you could have hired multiple very good devs like just to build something custom for significantly cheaper. Yeah. You know, so like where does that, like what, what's the state of, of kind of I guess tech ops in the high ticket space, but also like, you know, sales in general.

Yeah, I mean I think you, I think you kind of like hit the nail on the head and that there is, there's a lot of. I don't, I don't, I'm not speaking this over like negative about anybody, but like I think there's a lot of unqualified people in it. Like there is in a lot of roles in the like ticket Internet marketing space.

Right.

It's, it's a lot of unqualified people, which is great if the person like you know, is willing to learn and jump into the role where needed. I'm, I'm, I love that. Like I honestly do because I'm very unqualified myself and it's just a thing that, you know, I've had to get into and learn. My background before this was a mix of like doing IT and networking for Internet companies. So like actually doing like routing, you know, doing in home installations for Internet, that type of thing. And then after that I did like websites and stuff as well. So I have a, and the Internet company I was working with, I developed a custom CRM for them. So like I had a background in tech, I understand like how all the databases work. I've done programming, all of that stuff. So it just kind of like naturally flowed over in my mind. I kind of, I joke about this with, with Alaric Heck, who's been one of our longest clients as well from Ad outreach is that like we were talking one time and I was like, oh yeah, I guess. I like I see the world in flowcharts. It's like I literally like you present a problem and I see all paths, all outcomes almost immediately in my mind. So I can pick the one that's the most efficient and has the most leverage. Which comes in really handy when you're trying to this type of stuff.

Right? Yeah, I think as well, I think there's a unique aspect. I think I spoke to you about this before because like you're, you're like a hybrid between most tech guys are so painfully autistic and have such a lack of business acumen. Right. And if my tech guys are watching this, I've told you this to your face. Right? But like they're, they're, it's fantastic because like you know, like they can build great things. However, the use case is rare. The actual user experience and use case is rarely considered. You know, and so what they're looking to do is solve a very particular problem. But like you, you don't have to solve the problem in that way sometimes. And like that, the actual solving that way may although be elegant from a, like a, like I think there's like a sort of like a, you know, like a monotheistic tech way. Like we will do things using no exterior. It'd be 100% internal. Yeah, I mean like, and it's like this was, this is an elegant solution from a ones and zeros standpoint. However, the actual user will not be able to like to do it that way or it creates a cumbersome experience. And I think you see that a lot of the time in apps and in softwares where they're super engineer driven and there's no one going stop because no one's used it. I actually see that a lot in dialers and it's not even from like a sort of, not even from a, like a setter point of view, but I see it from a like the metrics that they present point of view. You know, it's like those are completely irrelevant. Like none of that matters. And like the feature set, they give.

You all kinds of data but not like your actual connection rate.

Yeah, well, if they did it so.

Hard to get the connection rate out of most.

Because it doesn't look that good, you know, like that's the real answer. It's because it doesn't look that good. Right. So like they don't they then they're, they're doing a smart thing by Showing metrics that are like, good for them. However, like, they, they just don't. They're not built in a way that you can have an opportunity to make anyone better, you know, and like, they're not built in a way where you can make any tweaks that are of any sort of meaning when it comes to sales, you know, and so, and you can see that. And it's like, I remember when I did that presentation at Cole. No, I did a presentation, I think it was someone's about dialer. And I sort of brought up all the dialers and I was like to see the founder of. This one has a bachelor of arts degree. This one has this, this one has this, this one has this. And I was like, I just sold people for a long time, you know, so like me. No, but be no sense, you know?

Yeah. And like, I, I agree with what you're saying. You've experienced this, I've experienced it as well. Like, and like developers are amazing at what they do. But. But I. They're missing a piece of that. So you've experienced this. If you ask them to build something, they will build it for you the way you asked it. Knowing that it's the wrong way, but simply because you asked for it that way.

Yes. Like it will have literal, the literal interpretations is like, there's not much, like, there's not much critical thinking around areas that aren't in their expertise. But like, you don't get a really good developer and someone who will go, okay, but what about this in terms of like the user? Because this is not how they think and if they thought that way, they wouldn't be as good of a developer. Yeah.

You know, like I, that happens there, but that also happens in like the, like we'll call like a tech person as well and that like it great that you can build a complicated zap, but I would prefer a simple one. Um, yeah, great that you build a zap that can do the thing. But it completely disregarded the, like the bigger picture. And so that's always one of the things and like one of the. I think one of my favorite pieces about what I get to do is like, even yesterday when you called me and you were like, I have this great idea, let's build this thing. Or like, Taylor will message me, Cole will message me, other business owners will message me and be like, I have this big high level thing I want to do. Can we do it? And I'm able to take that from that stage all the way through into actual deployment. Because of the unique position I get to sit in of like just voice message, voice message me your cool ideas. I'll think through it, I'll give it to my team and they'll be able to implement it. If we need anything, we'll just let you know. But there's no, we're not missing that gap in the middle. And I think a lot of companies are missing that gap where someone too high up who too visionary is speaking to someone who's like too far on the other side of integrator. And there's no person in the middle to like filter, like, can we do this? Should we do this? Do we need to do this? That type of thing?

Yeah. And then, yeah, I think like, that's a really good thing. And also I think from like, you know, if we take it back to like the CRMs, right? Like, I think salespeople, I think these days, I don't know, like, I was a huge proponent of like my sort of motto was he who knows the CRM best wins. Right. Like, that was my thing. And I used to set up, I used to use Close a lot. I think Close is great for a sales rep. I think the dialing sucks in it. But I think as for a sales rep, man, you can like, you can manipulate and do whatever you want in there. I don't think it's a CRM. I think it's more of like a front end sort of sales management kind of system. But like, I remember I used to go in there and set up my filters and like I, I had all the reps rated from like best to worst. And then like, so as soon as a call was marked as a no sale, it went into like a smart view for me. And then from there I could see everybody. And I would use that to look through everybody and I could like set toss for myself to follow up with their no sales two weeks later, because that was the rule. And I would get tons of sales like that, right? And you know, I think like most sales reps don't know that and don't know how to do that, which I think is a shame. But I think also most CRMs are so poorly done that like, that would be almost impossible. And like, what, what do you see from like a, like a. Because there's so much money in CRMs, but, and I don't like that there's gold in that list because there's probably not. Right? But there is probably. If you're in a business that's doing even half decent, there's probably 50 people right now that are actively going hey, like I'm ready to buy like literally saying those words from like someone that they spoke to six months ago who's no longer there and they're being totally ignored, you know. And so, and I think the, the just the lack of organization that I see in CRMs and sales systems and the over complexity that is being built because I think people just want to give themselves a job. Like that's the only thing that I can think of. Like what, what, what do you, like, what do you see? Like what, like because you go in, you look at HubSpot mainly but you also work with, you know, other ones, you know, and it's like well, what do you see from the typical company that's doing even like well and like, like there's just so much in there that's just poorly done.

I think the, one of the biggest things, the, the biggest factor in this is the thinking ability of the team. So if you're, if, if the founder or the, the team is very much just like a throw it together and we'll clean it up on the back end, like that can work, but only to a certain point. And at that point like, like you can, you can accidentally stumble to 100k a month with an ad. That works, right? But like at some point you're, it's going to rely more on like data, on being able to filter people properly. As you say, have a smart view that knows where people are at, when can I go after them, what's happening. But if it's not thought about like that from the beginning or the team doesn't think that way, it's hard to get this system to be used in a way to produce the data that allows you to do that type of filtering you're talking about. And that's like boring manual stuff. But like I always like to approach it from the simplest perspective. So right now like we have a client that's doing, I'm not going to like say names and stuff, but we have a client that's doing well into multiple seven figures a year and they have like 15 workflows in their HubSpot account. Like, but they know what they're doing. From a, from a organization standpoint, the workflows are specific. They do a specific thing and they're able to extract a ton of revenue out of those simply because they've thought about it. Right. But when it becomes an afterthought, you've probably interacted with teams like this too where it's like you ask for a number and nobody can find it. Nobody knows how it's actually being tracked.

Nobody knows if there's a 1 5%.

Yes or more. Yes. Yeah. So the trick really is how do we build something that works while minimizing the complexity. And that's kind of like where I like to kind of sit in the middle of like there is a point of diminishing returns where like we could build this really complex thing but is it worth the small amount of increase we're going to get as opposed to doing something else that's simpler, easier?

I suppose there's also the, the, the incurring debt. You know, the more, the more complex you do, the more organized you must be moving forward. And that's an actual, like, that's a, that's like.

You see this on the software side for sure.

It's an ever expanding model. Yes. Right. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't hit a point. And then you go, okay, we get more, we get bigger now and then we maintain the same level of complexity. It's like that, that actually can't happen. And automations are a series. Like it's actually like, it's a, it's like an exponential effect.

The more you grow, the more tangled it gets and it gets harder to untangle the further you go.

I think like one of the. What are some ways that like you would say like, like if your business, business owners listen to this. Because I think that there is a. I don't know if there's like a head in the sand but also it's difficult to see this like when I was a CEO of Sevens, like I, if it wasn't broken, like that just wasn't a massive thought pattern of mine. However, looking back at it with the foresight that I have or the hindsight I have now, I like would have, I would have done way different. I would have gone like oh okay like we need to. I would have built a. Probably like with the lead flow that we had. I would have maybe not gone HubSpot because it is, it would have been like crazy expensive. But I've actually seen some people do what I think is a cool thing which is GHL to HubSpot. I don't know how you feel about that. They do GHL for their like pure like the leads that come in and then every. As soon as it goes SQL, it goes to HubSpot. Right. Because HubSpot is a far superior. I always say that GHL is HubSpot for Brokies. Right? That which is fine, right. HubSpot is far superior. However that model where they have it like it can get abhorrently expensive when you're getting 50,000 leads a month. It would be insanity, like expensive. But like I just, I would have done things in a far smarter way and I would have like future proofed it a lot more and I or like built my own friggin CRM Jeremy, like just done it that way. Right? Because I think like the issue that I see with a lot of these businesses is like there's no automation sanitation so rules are set up and the people don't realize like automations are rules and the rules will be followed and when you create a conflicting rule that's when things brick and no one can figure out what the hell is going on. Remember we, we had someone was like dialer's calling the wrong leads and I was like it's physically impossible for dialog to call the wrong leads. You send the leads and it and it and it cues them to be called. So if the wrong leads are in there mate, you sent them, you know. So Ben went in and jumped on like 15 seats or something and then was like show me your CRM. He's on with the tech guy. And like Ben is pretty rough, you know and it's like four in the morning and he eviscerated this tech dude. Like he was like whoa. Yeah, that's why. And they're like well what do you mean? And everyone's on a call and he's like oh your, your automations are all set up completely incorrect. Like within your CRM your workloads are a nightmare. There's these conflicting rules. And he was like. And then the worst one was they set up the ad, the remove, then the ad call. So they were removing leads then adding them and it's like well you see how you have to add them then remove them. And then I was like oh yeah, my bad.

We do see that all the time. And like we've obviously seen like hundreds and hundreds of HubSpot accounts. Close pipe drive, go high level, all the things. And I think that is, that is one of the biggest things is, is like as you say it, it is a rule and it will be followed. And so if you have a conflicting rule or you change your process but don't update to match and you build a new workflow on top, that's where things can get really messy. So like there are times where we'll come in and we'll look at it we'll do an audit of a system, and we're like, this could be 80% simpler, but it just got built on top of layers and layers and layers of new stuff. Rather than, okay, we need to do this thing. Let's go back and adjust the existing workflows. We'll turn off and remove the stuff. We no longer need proper naming conventions so that everything's organized in folders. We can see the flow of a lead as they go through the process. Yes, it can be.

What are some telltale signs that these things are happening, do you think, as a business owner, what's the sort of feeling or the things that you can go on and actually look for? Because that's the hardest part. Besides, just like, go moderate genius and go get an audit. Right. We'll have a link down below here. Right. You know what I mean? I fully vouch. I've never had a bad experience. Right. So go in there and do it. But besides that, what should someone be looking for to make sure? Because the amount of money that you burned is crazy. Because leads just end up getting stuck in places where they can't be gotten to. And if a lead is costing you 15 bucks and it's 5% of your leads every month, which is probably on the low end. Mm. Right. Um, you know, the guys were just in the sales call with a very big sales training company, and they, they were like, most of the leads only get called once, and it's because, like, they get buried in, in, in this, like, sea of automations.

It's very common, actually. Um, the amount of times we've just. We've looked into a CRM and seen a massive portion of leads are just never getting dialed or even. There was. There was like, a client that, that we get to work with because of you. Like, they're using dialer, where it was like, they're complaining about the leads, like, dialer's not working. All this. I've. I looked at it. It's like, well, your. Your workflow is set up wrong. So, like, the triggers are not correct. That's why you're not getting the right leads inside of HubSpot, or, sorry, right leads instead of dialer. So it feels if you were to go based off of a feeling, like a business owner, sales manager, whatever. Like, the feeling is, I intuitively know this should be better and more effective. Something is wrong, but I can't put my finger on it. If you try to go and like, just follow a lead through the workflows. So if you're using HubSpot, go into the contact view, turn on the things. You can see all of their workflows. You can see like if they're going through things in the wrong order. And then it's like, well, why are they doing this? Why are they doing that? Or in HubSpot you would look at specific properties that indicate, well, at this point they should go into dialer. If this field equals this, maybe it's a lead status equals something they opted in for certain. Whatever, you know, whatever your criteria is. Go and look through the property change history and see when that is changing. Well, what workflow is causing that to change? Because there's probably is a bunch of overlapping workflows. There's probably like something that's setting it the right way and then very quickly changing it over writing it. Because two workflows are doing the same thing.

Yeah, right.

It's like, but. But you have to get into the granular of that. But the easiest way is to pick a couple of leads, probably ones you think should have done xyz, and then just follow them through the workflow and see what happened. It's likely either the criteria is wrong on the workflow, it's not picking up a new process or that like there's overlapping workflows that have done.

Yeah, I think there's a, there's a. I'm a big fan of the business owner hyper focus time where you like. So I remember like I'm. I'm like terrible. Well, you're great. Or terrible for this where something will happen and I will go like, huh, that's weird. Like I remember the thing that. So I shut down Sales Sniper, right? Because there was all this stuff was going on. The thing that caused me to do it was somebody liked a slack message, right?

Seems a little bit aggressive.

No, no, no, because I went, huh? Because that person, I said, that's odd. That person hasn't worked here for six months. And I went like, huh. So what I did is I then I literally spent five hours and I went to my wife and I said, I'll be here for a while. And she could just tell because she knows and she goes, okay, like, I'll leave you alone. And I was like, like everywhere. And what I found is that like everything was just being completely mismanaged and I was doing all of like the delivery in the front, but like all the everything else was like being basically just like no one cared, right? But they're all taking like the money and it was like it wasn't even like Malicious. It was just more like, just like it was being done poorly. Right? And I was like, that person was still getting paid because they hadn't been off boarded properly. And like, then I was like, look at all these people that I'm paying for in Slack, right? They're not here anymore. And then I was like, oh, I wonder if that's the same in Google. Boom, same in Google, right? And then I went through literally everything and then I ran all the numbers and I said, oh, this is stupid. Like, knowing all that, I was like, oh, this is stupid because like I wasn't even taking money and I was doing all the work, I was doing like all the delivery. I was like gonna try and build it back up to like, you know, I mean, because like the people that we had were on like these big salaries from when it was huge. You know what I mean? But like I'd ramped it down because I was focusing on other things. And so it was just kind of sitting there. It was like 600k a month. Like, this is not small, Right? Right, Yeah. I mean, but there was like no real profit. And I was like, oh, this is stupid. And I literally like, it was from that one person liking a Slack message. I just, I went, yeah, right.

Which if you're a founder, if you're a founder or an owner, like that is a really good skill to have because I think too many people are like, they get hands off. Once they get a couple people in, they can do the management or whatever.

Yeah.

So like that is something that I really respect about people like you, Cole Taylor, is like, they can get in and see the details and still understand it if they want to. It's not their like role. It's not the best place for them to be situated. But when it needs to happen, it can. And the stuff that you uncover sometimes is absolutely.

I mean, one of the things I uncovered at seventh, which I had like, when I was running, I had like a blow up. I never yell, but I was like, I was clearly pissed. And it was. I went into the schedule once and I ordered it and they'd like never sanitized it. They'd never like remove things. There was thousands of different calendars. Thousands, dude. And I was like, what is happening? And I was like, how are we supposed to attribute this many things? And I was like, this is ridiculous. And I was like, in 48 hours, that's fixed. They're like, oh, button. I was like, in 48 hours, that's fixed. I was like, I don't Care. If you have to work for 48 hours straight, that gets fixed because you should have been doing it for the last two years so you got the time off. You know, it was crazy stuff. And I was like, the amount of calendars that were still active but didn't that had reps that were not there anymore. I was like, where are these leads going? They're not going to the reps. Like, they're. And that kind of stuff is like. And because, like, I have. I have rebuilt the tech of like, off the shelf tech. Like, I like same thing. Okay. You know, YouTube, how to use it. Boom. Like rebuild calendar systems, basic dashboard. Like, I've built the crap out of a lot of gecko boards. You know what I mean? Like, and all kinds of stuff like that. And like, I can do all that stuff because it's like off the shelf, no code, you know, Like, I can. I could run. I built all the tech for sales sniper myself, like, the first time. Because, like, who else is going to do it? Nobody. You know, and then people come in and like, run the same shit for you, you know? But I think as a founder, like, you've got to do that every now and then. You've got to like, be sniffing for these, like, inefficiencies. And if you see something weird, you should be like, that is weird. And you have to then go in and ferret yourself down the rabbit hole to find these inefficiencies. Yeah, it's a.

It's like a curiosity thing that I think some founders end up losing over time because there's other people in place.

Yeah.

But like, if you see something that's weird, be curious about it and like, yeah, look into it. Not because, like, you distrust people on your team, but like, maybe your marketing. Maybe you're like, marketing expense your roas, dropping your expenses, going up. Maybe that's not just related to marketing. Maybe there's something else that's broken that's causing it to look like it's a marketing issue. Like, maybe your ads are probably still working fine. Maybe it's not equality. Maybe. Maybe lead quality is fine. If something else is broken and it just makes your lead quality look bad. Cause your costs are going up.

Yeah. And I think that's where someone like you who. It's a very unique. It's a very unique position because there are not many people that can look at it from like a tech operations perspective. But then, like, look at it from a sales perspective and go, okay, like, what's business owner intent here? Like, in the military, we used to call it, like, commander's intent. So there's, like, implied tasks, but implied tasks don't work with, like, tech artists. Right? There is no implied task. It is like, yeah, but you said this. And I was like, yeah, my bad. I did say this.

What I meant, but I did say that. You're right.

I've had that conversation. I've gotten much better at it. I've gotten much better at it. Like, yep, that's my fault. I. I will 100% take that on the chin. Right? You know, so. So, yeah, but, like, that's where having someone like you in the business, it's like. And also, like, you know, it's actually like, people look at money in a weird way, right? Like, you know, people will. I remember I had a. I had a client, like, they were getting a great result on dialer, and they were kind of humming and arring about the expense, and I saw them post that that they were spending, like, 35 grand a day on ads, and I was like, what the fuck? Like, you're just throwing more money at Mark Zuckerberg. I can see your numbers. You don't need that many leads, bro. Now, you could knock that. You could knock that down to 15. You'll be fine. Like, you can't get that many people. And it's like, my bill was only 15 because it was, like, a big team, but I was like, bro, what are you. What do we. What conversation? I even texted him. What conversation are we having? I was like, I just. I called him and I railed him. It's like, I know him. But. Yeah, so having someone like you in there and. And your team is like, it's. You know, I wish I would have, like, sort of known more about it when I was at seventh, because, like, I think you guys did pitch seven, but I wasn't part of it.

Yeah, it's one of those things. You were. You were, like, one of the sales guys that we should have worked with, but it just never. Like, it never happened.

Right.

We worked with Taylor Cole, Worked with other people. You and I didn't actually even meet until 20 till, like, June or whatever of 2024.

Yeah.

Feels like it. It should have happened just because our cross. Our paths should have crossed sooner than that.

We did many times, but I sort of never really, like, I was so in my bubble. I was, like, just trying, like, to. I was just trying to, like, not have everything fall apart. That's fair. I was like. I was just like, this is madness. I had Two companies that were doing eight figures like this. I was like, ah, in two different countries just trying to sort the out of it. Oh man. But yeah, it was, it was fun. So yeah, I think like, you know, if you're a business owner or a sales guy, like watching this, like, you know, like go through dude, like do some checks, follow some leads and then like if things are weird like most of the time the, the tech people or even the, the people that people hire in these high ticket businesses. When a business is growing quickly, there's a thing called like the Peter Principle, right? Which is when you promote people to a state of incompetence. So like you're, you're a great sale, you're amazing sales guy. I make you like, you're, you're a good sales manager. Then I make you the head of sales and you're, you're a decent head of sales. Then I make you the, the chief revenue officer and you're a horrific chief officer. It's like I've just promoted you to where you're no longer good at your job. But like had you have just stayed in like where you were or like, you know, you have to. I remember I had a conversation with, it was actually a friend of mine that worked me for years and he was the head of ops and he goes, how do I become the CEO of the company? And I said, you, you have to quit. He's like, what do you mean? I was like, well, we're like a fast growing company so you would have to quit, go be like an operations manager at a much larger company, right? And then come back and, and then, or like the head of ops of a much larger company and then come back because otherwise like we're all just learning together and like that's not a good thing. And I even, I said, I go mate, when this thing gets to like 50 mil, I'm out. I was like, I'm not, I can't do that. I don't know what to do. I'll just be like everybody else going, oh, you need to go get the CEO of somebody who's done 100 million and they, they know what, what it's going to be like. And so they can be the chill one that's like, don't worry, this is all normal. But like, I'll be like, oh, you know, so I can fake it. I'm good at that, right? But you know, and so I think having someone like you, it's like you've seen big, messy, fast, you know, and elegant and it's like, don't worry, like we can do it. Just do it this way. We don't, we don't have to freak out about it. It's like, okay, sweet. Because if you have someone who's been there, it's so much easier.

Yeah, I, I agree. And like that's one thing that's, that is interesting. Like this since I started in 2019, like multiple like iterations I guess of a lot of Internet marketers have kind of like come and gone even in the amount of time that we've been doing this. And so we've been able to see like the rise, the fall, everything in between, how the tech stack has like morphed and changed. Like, you know, like the default that everybody's using changes over time. We even had a hand of, in creating that of like the processes that most people use. Like we were the ones that got to actually help create that with Cole, with other people of like, you know, so it's actually been, actually been really cool. But I, I do agree with you in that if you, if you promote.

Someone.

Somewhere beyond what their current competence level is, like I'm, I'm fine to do that. But there's certain ways of thinking that in the, in the tech type of role, like you really wanted that person to have. So like someone can come from like an ops role over into, like into and be a good, really good tech person. So we've hired people that don't even have really have much like Internet marketer, high ticket tech, like CRM knowledge based on the fact that there are really good ops person. So I know they think in systems. I just need to get them to think bigger picture in how, like how does what I'm doing apply to the sales team? Like what do they need? What.

But again you're there.

What does the finance team need?

Again, you're there. Yeah, right. So you just need someone who's like, no, no, no, let's just like look at it this way, you know, but if everyone's experiencing that for the first time, there's no one to go, no, no, let's just look at it this way, you know, and like that's what you know, that's why most companies I think who grow up, they just get stuck at a certain point and it's because like the older people involved are just like, they're really good at what they do. But like you, you can't be really good at new things and when you're growing, the company is a new version of that. Company every month. And, and like you, you really. If. Especially with those, like the visionaries can usually sort of like, they can hold out for a while, right? But generally speaking, those like core departments, like finance ops, you know, stuff like that, they need to be run by someone who has been there and done that. Like, so that's why I never let anyone be a C level executive. Like, never hire them as a C level. Just hire them as the head of. Right? Because otherwise you just fire them because like, or demote them. Because if you have a CMO and you're at 200k a month, like, first of all, it's ridiculous. But if you have a CMO and then like when you get to $3 million a month, you're like, you need a CMO. And then you're like, well, that guy's been the CMO, but I gotta bring in a CMO. This is like an awkward conversation, but you have no idea what you're doing, bro. You know, like, I. I had people ask me to be executives all the time and I was like, no. They're like, why not? I was like, because I'll fire you. I was like, I like you. I don't want to fire you. So let's just like, let's keep it cozy. Okay. So, yeah. So where can people best to kind of reach out to you, Find you.

They can. If you want to reach out, like, you can find information about what we do on our website. It's just themorigenius.com or just find me on Facebook or IG. I'm always like happy to have conversations. Always happy to even just like answer questions. I think a lot of people are kind of like stuck in a. I'm having this problem and I don't even know what to do. I don't even know how to think about this problem. If you have a sales coach, you can talk to them about sales. If you have a, you know, if you're having like a marketing problem, there's lots of people that like help with marketing, teach marketing, whatever. There's not so many people that like know how to take some of the.

These.

This is where I'm at in my business. These are systems I have. What do I like, what is next? What do you. What do. Who can look into the future for me? And like, I can, I can kind of do that even just to give people a quick recommendation.

So your syrup tech.

I guess so.

You should go on Taylor's podcast, see Flowcharts.

I can see you into the tech world.

Exactly yeah. All right, man. Well, you know, I highly recommend working with Ed. He's coming and saved us a lot of the times from the inadequacies and failures of tech people, and it caused us to not lose clients and dialer and stuff like that. So highly recommend. Go out, speak to them and get an audit. Like, it's literally one of the smartest things that you can do just to regularly have an external someone who knows what they're doing, just audit stuff just to make sure that things aren't getting squirrely. I recommend that for your marketing department, your sales department, your tech department, ops, everything. Just get audits regularly. So, yeah. All right, guys, have a go. Bye.