All about Personal Branding - CIFC Episode 126

Ah, thumbnail poses.

Hey, guys, what's up? Another episode of Coffees for Closers. Me and Pat. Today we're going to be talking about personal branding, I guess, how to use it, how it affects the person who is the face of the brand, how you keep your agency as a human being and still, you know, not get canceled, and why it is sometimes advantageous to do a personal brand over a more corporate brand.

That's it.

Yeah. So watch it or else. Dum, dum, dum. If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review.

Hey, so I was in the comments the other day, and I like, you're not meant to do that. You're not meant to do that. But I am, because that's my job, is to read all the comments and stuff.

Yeah.

And there's a couple of funny things that sort of triggered me that this would be something we should talk about. And I think both of us, at about the same time, and I think we sort of spoke about this one time at my place, and we sort of put it out as like a YouTube video linked to that. But we spoke about how we had made the conscious decision of, okay, like, our own social media profiles were going to be the front of our businesses.

Yeah.

And that. That requires, like, a change in the way that you would act. And sometimes since then, I get kind of not jealous, but I. Not definitely not jealous. That's not the right word. But I'm shocked by the way that some people interact online. And I think, do you not care for your personal brand, sir?

And.

And then I realized, like, oh, no, they don't. Because if you've got a job somewhere and you're getting paid a salary and they don't care about what you do online. Like, I see a lot of people just getting up to madness online, and it shocks me.

Yeah. What's even more shocking is the people who do rely on their personal brand, but they still just yolo it.

Yeah.

So which I do kind of respect.

Like, to a point, but I think what sort of triggered this? And I won't. I won't even bother saying the post and certainly not the guy's username because I don't want to sort of add any traction to it. And it's irrelevant. Like, I don't give a about the guy. And I'm sure you care even less than me. But on a post, it was on Instagram, someone commented, moobs.

What does that even mean man boobs?

I know. So I was like, I thought maybe, like, might be a friend of yours, like, because, you know, it'd be like a funny sort of thing to say because people do that to me all the time. Because I do indeed have man boots, right? So I have a powerful chest chat, but. So the guy is a personal trainer, right? And is advertising on his Instagram like, hey, come be a person. Like, learn from me. I know everything.

Maybe he's one of those guys that yells at you until you feel bad about yourself. Well, from there you get better.

So then his link in his bio is to another Instagram page where he's claiming to be the squat king of something or other. And the link in that bio is to a church project where he's like, cramming to be like, super nice guy, Christian dude, right? And so I looked at it and I was just like, oh, dude, this doesn't act. This doesn't add up. Like, you're. You're claiming to be one thing and you're acting in another way. And I think that's an interesting pitfall that I wanted to discuss with you in that you have, you know, you made the conscious decision that within this, you know, conglomerate of companies and everything that's going forward, there was a day where you were like, oh, I am now accountable to all of this, and my online activity has to reflect that.

I think I could probably find the exact day because I'd be able to go back into our group chats when I said, hey, boys, just so you know, personal Facebook's going full business. Feel free to unfriend.

Yeah, yeah.

Unfriend, Unfollow.

I remember. I remember thinking, oh, this is gonna be interesting.

Yeah.

And I think, like, I actually had another experience and it was very similar, which is kind of like people, which is kind of wild. Whereas a. It was a guy who ran a, like, men's. Like a men's well being Facebook group, right? And he comments on one of my ads going, not this cringy fuck bag again or something like that, right? Like, I was like, I was like, oh, this is interesting comment. Let me click this guy. And then it went through, and then it went through to a Facebook group which was like, men supporting men.

Mm.

Right. So what I did is I joined the Facebook group and then I screenshot of the ad and I was like. And then it was like, I went through. And then I posted and I was like, I'm joining this group because I'm being bullied online when you got a couple of extra minutes on the toilet, you know, you can really do some damage if you understand how the Internet works.

Yeah.

So it was quite fun. I got booted out almost immediately, of course, because people don't like being held accountable for their actions. But yeah, I started really interesting. But yeah, so I made an active decision because I was like, well, personal brands are just way easier to grow. You know, like, it's hard to grow Coca Cola. Like, you know, they put cocaine in it. That helped.

You know, I'm sure that's how they got it going.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But initial seed funding.

Yeah, exactly. But it's just people attached to humans. Way easier.

Yeah.

But then it's like, now you're a brand and now you're like, responsible and accountable. Like, your actions and your words are now a reflection of a. Like a large group of people, you know, and separating that out is really difficult. You look at like Gary V. Most people couldn't name what his marketing company is called now. It's VaynerMedia.

Yeah.

Right. But Gary V. Has like 20 times the following. Yeah, but that. All that is designed to do is find out people on demander media. That's really all it is. And they provide branding and marketing services. Right. But. And so Gary V. Like, his messaging is always very similar and he, you know, stays within a. Though he talks a lot, he stays within a pretty targeted niche of things that he talks about. And I think that's like, that's the hard part. It's like, what do you talk about? What do you not talk about? If you're really passionate about something, like politically or some sort of like. Like, do you then risk.

Yeah.

You know, all of that. So you can say your piece because you do have a platform. So it's like now you have a platform because you've grown this personal brand, but you really can't do anything of meaning with it outside of growing your business.

Yeah.

And like, I've ran into people. Like, for me, that's not really. I'm pretty religiously, like, agnostic. I mean, it's turned like, sort of like. Like a politically. Like, I don't.

Yeah.

You know, whatever.

They're all. They're all bad guys.

Yeah, everyone's an idiot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, I've had clients in the past that were like, deeply religious and very political. And like, I would watch the business go down, you know, as they sort of got more and more vocal. And this is a lot of. This was like one of the clients that we had in Canada and Canada, all that weird was going on. He was, he had a platform. He was really passionate about it. And then I had to pull and I was like, hey, man, like, I respect everything you're doing, but there's other people here now.

Yeah.

And I was like, you are. And like, you don't have to stop doing it.

Your.

Your voice is your voice, bro. Totally respect it. And I don't disagree with the things that you're saying, but even if I did or didn't, it wouldn't change this conversation. It's like you're, you're in the bed on this one. So as long as you're okay with it, then I'm okay with it. We just have to put in some other arrangements.

Yeah, that.

And he was like, okay, I'll stop. You know, he stopped for a little while. But then this also comes in, like, shadow banning.

Yeah.

You know, and all these different platforms. And it's like you just got to make the call. Like, if you're going to be the personal brand, in my opinion, then like, you just stick in your lane and just sort of stay out of it.

Yeah, I agree. I think that's what's really interesting is that you do as an individual representing a brand and the brand is you and your company. And, and I think there's many levels to that. Like, there's me, that my company is just me.

Right.

But then there's you, who are the face of like 150 people who, you know, if I shit the bed on my personal branding, if I got up one day and just decided, tell me.

What you really think.

Well, let me get to that. But, but if I got up and decided I'm gonna throw a hand grenade on this, it's. It's me who suffers. And that's. That's fair enough. Well, I've got a family that are also, you know, relying on me. But if you up online, then there's a. You can sink a big, big ship. Yeah, I think. Do you think that there's a point where that becomes like a critical vulnerability in the company?

Like, and we have insurance for it.

Yeah. Right, expand on that.

Well, like, we, we had to have a plan. Like, and the plan was, it was brought up by me. I was like, what if I shit the bed? Like, what if I go full blown political crazy person Facebook. And they're like, there could be a scenario in which that happens.

Yeah.

Like, everyone's got a hill. They're going to die.

Yeah. I can't Deal with this. Yeah, I got to go hard in the paint.

Yeah.

I mean, and so, like, from there, it was like, all right, well, if you're. If that is shown to have a significant negative consequence on the business, I get the boot. You know, and I get the boot negatively, and I get the boot with not that much money coming my way for my shares.

Right.

You know, like, there's a number. I think it's 50% of market value, which I'd still be okay. Good to know. You know, I'd be all right.

Yeah.

But that's a big hit to take. But I was like, yeah, I'm okay with it. Because then that.

That. That.

That. That goes out to the other people as well, even people who are, like, proxy representing the brand. And that's why you got to be real careful with, like, who you build up and who you don't. Because, like, you know, we had a thing recently. We're, like, at seventh level where, like, Jeremy was consistently building up this one sales rep, you know, And I was, like, very against it. I was like, dude, you can't do this. Like, you got to stop doing it. Like, this is going to bite us in the ass also. Like, I don't believe we have different viewpoints of that person.

Okay.

You know, like, I ended up having to fire them. And then because, you know, Jeremy had spent, like, a year building this person up, you'd basically given him a profile.

Yeah.

You know, and Jeremy's platform is huge. It's, you know, fucking enormous.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so when he decides to build somebody up, like, it really get built up. Yeah. It really happens. So like, that created a whole different mess. And then it's like, like, you know, even before I ended up firing him, he would go in and say comments in the Facebook group or on Facebook on other people's stuff, and I'd have to, like, screenshot it and show him. I'd be like, hey, dude, like, you've got my logo as, like, a watermark on your stuff, and you've got my logo as your cover photo. I was like, you've decided to do that. You've anted in.

Yeah.

And you're reaping the rewards from it.

Yeah.

You need to be careful what you say.

Yeah.

Because now every single thing is representative of the company which you work for.

So.

So I do want to explore that sort of idea of endorsing someone and. And let's continue on that. But I want to put a pin in the idea of, like, polarization when we talk about that political idea. So.

Yeah.

Help me make sure I get my way back to that.

Yeah, yeah.

So I think endorsing someone online, especially from within your own business, is like, it's not like a. No, no. Right. Like there's instances where that's 100% the right play. You've got to have succession planning. You've got to have like, you know, you can't be the face of everything forever. It would be too exhausting to do that.

Right.

So within succession planning, you've got to, you know, account for the idea that somebody else has to borrow from your credibility.

Yeah.

And you lend that to them in order that they bring them up. But then. Exactly. Right. So then that's a burden in both directions as well. Like that you have to give to them, but in taking from you, they're sort of agreeing to go along with everything, like your attitude, your outward Persona.

Yeah. So, like, I know a lot of companies who do that, but then what they'll do is they'll start new LinkedIn, start new Facebook pages, and they'll start all new social medias, and then those will be like the branded ones and they're owned by the company.

Right.

It's like, so like you're just the insert face. You know what I mean? And then that way, like, if the person goes away, you can just swap that profile. New name, new face.

Yeah.

You know, so like you can kind of do that. And then I think that mitigates some of the risk some, you know, and just in terms of like losing the data or whatever in which that, like, for example, like, if you like, I know, like a LinkedIn lead generation company and all their lead, most of their lead gen is through LinkedIn enough. Right. And it's like you can only have 30,000 contacts in LinkedIn, so every single employee, they maxed out.

Right.

In different segments. Smart way of doing it. But then that person has. Then holds that, holds that. So like they held the admin accounts, you know, I mean, and I guess just hope that people didn't change the passwords.

Yeah.

You know, because it wouldn't be super difficult to do. But. Yeah, so like, but there is a burden that goes. That's attached to it. Like, you know, I remember I was talking to your wife Jane, like, like ages ago because she's kind of had a personal brand for her tattooing for like a long time. And we're talking about like the people that she follows. And she was like, yeah, I follow people for their work. She's like, as soon as they start putting photos of their kids. It's like, I don't want to see you stupid kids.

Yeah.

You know, so it kind of changes, like how you use social media, what you can do. Like, if I put up stuff of me and my kids, like, it's next. But if I put up a behind the scenes of, like, you holding a camera, everyone's like, oh, it's exciting.

Yeah.

It is very, very difficult to gauge that when, you know, on the topic of being an individual who's the face of a brand, big or small, it is nearly impossible to gauge because, you know, people who leave, they just leave, right?

Yeah.

So you get the odd people that are like, oh, screw this, I'm out. One of my favorite Instagrams is, look at this Russian. Have you ever seen that?

No.

Treat yourselves, treat yourselves. But it's kind of dying. Go back through their old post. So Russia, you know, is one of the first countries to bring in mandatory dash cams. So. Yeah, so, like, you couldn't get insurance unless you had a dash cam in your car. And so Russia was one of the first countries that just had, like, bulk footage of madness.

Just crazy.

They're just capturing everything, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And so there was this Instagram of. Look at this Russian. It was just Russians doing crazy things. It was so fantastic. But they've obviously hit, like, a monetization point. I think they got millions of followers where now they're doing, like, booty model shout outs. Right. Because they're like, well, you're like, how.

Else are we going to make money from this?

Exactly. They got to monetize somehow. And there's a lot of people vocally unfollowing that. The first time they did it, I was like, it's a nice booty. I'm fine with that being in my feed.

Yeah.

But then, like, it's coming. Like, they're posting that more often. Like, I reckon they might have even sold the page or something like that. But there's a lot of people vocally leaving. That's not what I'm here for. I want to see Russians doing crazy shit. I don't want to see bikini models.

Right, yeah. Just Photoshop brands in there.

Yeah.

I mean, like, put a Coca Cola over the head.

Yeah, exactly.

Do it that way. Yeah, try and try.

Yeah.

You build it up. You have the chick with the booty in the background.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, but so, you know, for you, for example, like, we don't see a dip when you, like, in fact, there's a right amount of personal stuff to put on. On your profile.

It's also like, I don't want people seeing my kids, and I want to see them in front of my house. I don't want to see him.

Exactly.

You know, like, I. Like, I can never. Me and my wife can never post anything with my kids in school uniform. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've had that chat. It's like, nope. And like, if anyone fucking posts it and they tag us, I fucking scream at them. Yeah, yeah, Like, I'll go, hey, motherfucker, you take that down. Now you tag it and you delete that fucking post. Because, like, I don't know, I've had people find me.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Like, Luke, who works for us. Love you, Luke, but the fucking way that you came to us was fucking crazy. Right? Watched videos and I had done a. I had done like a vlog style thing on YouTube in front of the what? So that's it. And then Luke was like, I've driven past that. And he goes, I really want to work for these guys. So he was like, well, you can send me a dm, but, like, good luck.

Yeah.

So he sent me. He made memes, right? And because he was a FedEx driver, he made memes and he figured out where I was, figured it was the what. So it went up and said, is sales sniper here? And they said, yes, they're there. He said, which suite number? Then went back and like, mailed me memes. Snap right there. And then from there I was like, well, I have to fucking get this dude in. Came in with a suit. Is fucking adorable.

Did he realize what.

He was like, you better not be wearing a suit.

You're in your basketball shirt.

And like, you know, like, great, I did the work. And. But, like, that just showed me, like, if somebody wants to, they find me.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? And so, you know, that's. That's something that you really got to consider and is really an unpleasant. You know, especially if you're, like, known for making money. That just seems like a recipe for disaster.

Yeah.

Now, hopefully, I'm also known for being one of the most dangerous people in the coaching and consulting industry.

You got to rely on that.

Good luck.

Yeah.

Right. You know, but, like, it is a thing that needs to be considered. And I think personal branding is. I think it's great. I think it's. The hard things are like, I guess, like, I can't, like, I even have people in my DMs. I can't even send family photos to My family in Facebook. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, I have to, like, there's only one or two mediums that I can use to actually communicate with my family. Because, like, on all the other ones, people are reading it.

Yeah.

You know, and then, so that's like, this is, you know, what we're sort of unpacking is the pros and cons is that you. You get better engagement online, more relatability, more trust in the brand by it being a person, not a logo.

Yeah, exactly.

But that comes at the cost of means of communication being flooded. You know, you don't owe people a reply for all these kinds of things. Like, if you. If you were to personally reply to everything that came in, be impossible, but that's because you invite that you have people whose job it is to. To deal with that sort of thing.

Yeah.

But that cuts off channels of communication to friends, family, and, like, literally, like.

The only way that I can communicate with most of the people who I know from the States is Facebook. Like, so now I just. I mean, if they message me, they're lost in a sea of messages. I'd have no fucking clue.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, because I get 300 dms a day.

Yeah.

Which are all answered.

Yeah.

You know. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Sometimes it is me, sometimes it's not.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And sometimes it's me for a bit of it and somebody else and then vice versa, you know, because I know what they're going to say, like, trying to train to do it. So, like, I can pick up that conversation whenever I want. But. Yeah, so it is, like, it is tricky, I think, to manage, and I think, like, people probably think about it before they. Before they do it. But it is a shortcut.

Yeah.

You know, but all shortcuts have their penance. You have to pay, I suppose.

And I'm curious about how you went about doing that, because, like, what I did in my space was, you know, before I had a group, before I had anything to offer, all I had was knowledge. And so what I did was join other forums and not necessarily. Not ones, because this is pre, like, Facebook groups being used the way they are. But they were real forums like run, you know, like, on an interest topic rather than by a person to. To act as a lead generator. I know who would believe it, and I would just answer questions like. And just provide value in there. And that's how I built a profile for myself to the point where, you know, like, not that I. Not that I don't answer those questions now, like we've asked, but I don't go looking for questions to answer.

Yeah.

Is that similar to what you did?

No, I did like I didn't. There was only one or two places where I would do that, but I would do that as a student.

Okay.

Right. So like I was in the group or the program and so like people would answer, ask questions and I would answer like, hey, this is my two cents. You know, take, take it for what you will. Yeah, but the way I did it was generally speaking through like just straight organic posting. And so like when I was doing that, like there really wasn't many other people that were doing it. Yeah, I was a very early adapter. Sorry to like just giving out content. And I think because like the mentality of a lot of people is like, don't give too much away. Yeah, it's really hard to like, first of all, I hope I'm always learning. So the stuff that I said a year ago, hopefully I've superseded it with something better, you know, so. But I just, I just, I didn't really have anything to sell anyone. And so. And like I still sort of don't, to be honest. Like, yeah, we do done for you marketing and done for you sales and we have some coaching programs available. Like we have an objection handling course that you can buy. But that's basically it. And it's like those are pretty niche products for a niche amount of people. But the content that I was doing was just to help anybody who tries to make money through using sales, which is like almost everybody.

Yeah.

You know, so I was just like, well like my only goal is just to be known as a guy who is good at sales. That was the goal. So I was like, I can do that through like, hey, this is what I'm getting. And there was a real like, I guess the polarization came from I didn't accept the standard of the industry. And I think to be honest, without turning my own horn, I think I probably raised the standard of the industry, a bit of the coaching consulting industry when it comes to sales. Okay. Because like there was a big like offers made is no longer a thing.

Okay, what is that? Explain that to me.

So it's when people would say, hey, I. I took 100 calls, right. I had an 80 close rate and I closed 20 of them. Okay, Right. So they would go, no, no, I just didn't offer those people.

Right.

So then they would only take the proportionality of you you offered. And that is not something that is said out loud anymore.

Because you, because of me, you went hard against that.

Yeah. And that is what got me my profile.

Right.

Okay. Like that one thing like that got me Tony, that got me road, that got me a bunch of good sales reps, because everyone knew it was bullshit and nobody wanted to say anything about it. And I like ranted about it.

Okay.

Like quite like religiously ranted about it. And I'm only sort of thinking it out loud. But that is like. Because I've had a few conversations about, hey, where'd you come to me? Or how did you, you know, want to come here? And a lot of it was like, oh, I used to see you talk about these things and nobody else would talk about that. And it made a lot of sense.

Okay, perfect. So that can swing me around then to this idea of polarization. So that was a. That's an example of using polarization effectively, ethically and to your advantage.

Right.

Where you've found a hill you're willing to die on. Probably like in the scheme of things. Not like nobody's getting that upset about that. People who were making claims against offers made probably were like, oh, got me. Yeah, like, exactly right. Like it. No one was gonna die on the hill of like, no, that's a real thing. And my close rate is this. But I mean, they probably like close the laptop and go like, that's. That's true.

Yeah.

Like when they reflect in themselves, like, it's not, it's not a deep seated political view that anybody has. So that's an example of drawing a line and saying, no, this is how I feel and I'm holding my ground on it.

Yeah.

And you know, you feel as though that. And rightly feel as though that helped bring the industry forward. And there was like, you know, not only helped the industry, but helped you.

You got.

Went along with it.

Right.

Rising, rising tide lifts all the boats.

Yeah.

What I think people confuse and what I see for sure is when polarization doesn't apply to the helping you and all it does is cut your market in half.

Yeah.

So, well, if you're going to go left or right, you're going to cut it in half immediately.

Yeah.

Regardless of if you're left or right.

Yeah.

Well, this is the thing. So like I hesitant to say his name out loud because we'll end up on the Internet saying like, it'll be cut into a clip. But like Andrew Tate, he's all over the Internet and, And for reasons we can explain if people care, but he's incredibly polarizing yeah, but he doesn't believe.

The shit he's saying.

Yeah, that's right. But he's doing that on purpose because he's selling a polarized product. So what he's immediately doing is getting rid of from his market the people who, who will never buy his anyway.

Which there's something to be said about that. Right?

Like from it, like I think we should point out I'm gonna stare down the barrel of the camera while I say it. From a marketing standpoint, the shit they're immediately doing is, is getting rid of from his market the people who, who will never buy his shit anyway.

Which there's something to be said about that. Right? Like from it.

Like I think we should point out I'm stare down the barrel of the camera while I say it. From a marketing standpoint, the shit that he's done is incredibly genius.

You approve?

I'm going to say not, I'm not on board. Like, it's nonsense, most of it.

Yeah.

But from, from a, I mean even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and again, right? Yeah, but from a like money making marketing perspective, if you're prepared to play the villain, hell, he's, he's a genius in that regard.

Well, the thing is like you can. And you know, and I was actually talking to Bradley about this who's kind of, kind of somewhat does a similar thing. Just like it's not, it's just who he is. He's just a, just says stuff, right?

Yeah.

So but he, but he, one of his mentality is like, you're better off getting rid of getting the unfollows because then at least then you're left with people who actually give a shit about things that you say.

Yeah.

And then you can track real engagement with real people. Whereas if you just kind of like, and just kind of like you're not polarizing at all, then yeah, you can grow a following. But monetizing that is very difficult.

Yeah.

You know, like if you have a look at like Jeremy's following Jeremy, like, is very antithetical to most of the sales industry. So a lot of the things that he says, people are like, oh fuck, that makes a lot of sense.

Right.

But it's different to what everybody else is teaching, which is why it's so good like that. And so like his following is hyper monetized. Yeah, like hyper. Like I dare say if you were to track all of his unique followers and then track that to like income per follower, he would be up there top 10 in the world, you know, like, because the amount of income derived from a relatively small base, like 100,000 Instagram. Sounds like a lot. Nothing in the grand scheme. 12,000 on YouTube. And then that's about it in the Facebook group. Jesus, man. Like, the dude kid makes money, you know, and it's a hyper monetized, very, very select group of people. Because, like, anyone who is like, old school sales, who's never going to convert, unfollows him as a. Yeah. You know, and if you're not in sales, why would you ever follow him?

Yeah.

Because the dude talks about nothing other than. But sales.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, what's been done there is a phenomenal selection out. You know, it's just. So the only people he's speaking to are people who are drinking that Kool Aid.

Yeah.

But. So if. If Jeremy had some polarizing political viewpoint.

Yeah.

It's irrelevant. Like, it. It can only.

It can only hurt.

It can only hurt for him to express that if it turned out like, you know, Jeremy's like, Coke Zero is the worst thing in the world. And. And you should only have real coke and Coke Zeros for.

And I want to hear opinion. I don't.

Because we're.

No, no. It's like, it isn't. I know his strangest opinion. That wouldn't affect him.

Okay.

Right. Ice and water makes you fat. Do you want to hear the reasoning behind it?

I put ice in my water sometimes. That's all this time I've never known. 39 years I've been overweight.

Because when he was in Europe one time, he noticed that nobody had ice in their water and then no one was fat.

Yeah.

It's a fact out. Ice works you fat.

Yeah.

We should probably do a podcast on correlation.

Yeah.

Causation.

But he's lean.

He is.

He is.

He's a lean dude.

Yes.

And here I am.

Yeah.

Man boobs. Good set of boobs at this podcast.

Yeah.

But. So any bizarre opinion, Jeremy has no benefit expressing it. None. Whereas if you're selling a product that, you know, like, isn't available to people who think that Coke Zero is crap. Right. Like, if you're only selling a product to people who like the real deal coke, then you may as well all over Coke Zero because it just cuts those people out and their hatred of you will only bring awareness to the people who do, like, real coke.

Right.

So. So the guy who used to run gyms with Travis Jones, Right. He used to be a fitness business coach and all kinds of stuff like that before it all kind of, like, crumbled a little bit. How he got his profile and how it all started for him is he wrote an article saying soy makes women have fat asses and men cry, like, little or something like that.

Right.

Like, it was a really, like, a really, like, headline.

Yeah.

Article like that. And he ended up on, like, five different radio stations defending this article about soy being, you know, a soy boy type thing. Right.

Yeah.

And then from there, he started a Facebook group. This is so far before Facebook groups, you don't even know. This is back when Facebook groups were capped to 5,000 people.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. That. And he had two of them fully packed out of people paying 50 bucks a month fully packed.

To hear him talk about.

Him talk about stuff like that, it all came from that. Right. So then the element of polarization isn't. Isn't like, there's no point having a brand that everybody likes. There's just no point. And so, like, with Sales Sniper, it's like, I've always been very, very clear and very pointed. I'm, like, a naturally polarizing person anyway. Like, people tend to like me or hate me. Like, in the army, there was two camps. There's no one who was like, oh, yeah, Boone is okay.

You could swap camps, though.

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, you could swap.

Yeah.

You go up one of the other. Yeah, it was a revolving door like that. But there was no people who were like, oh, yeah, Mets are right.

Yeah.

I mean, it was you, like, oh, yeah, dude's good to go. I was like, nice a fuckwit.

Yeah.

And then they'd argue. Yeah, yeah, that. But, you know, I don't know why. It's just kind of. I think it was because I just never really accepted, like, well, this is the way it is. I was like, it doesn't have to be like, you know, but. So I think, like, being. Being somewhat polarizing, I think, is a really important thing, But I think if you fake it, it sort of screws you up.

Yeah.

I think it has to be, like, you have to be passionate about things you're passionate about. And then, like, there's just things I don't care about. So, like, trying to pretend that I care about them, I think would come off as disingenuous. And one of the big things that I discovered, especially from a personal branding standpoint, was, like, you just got to do things the way you want to do it, even if it's not the optimal way. You know, like, we talk about our content and stuff, and, you know, half time, I'M like, yeah, but it's like, it's good. Like, I'm. If I'm happy with the content, but it doesn't perform that well. Like, who gives a. Yeah. You know, like, obviously you want to try and make things perform well, but end of the day, like, it's. If you're happy with it. Like, if I made an awesome movie and not many people watched it, I'd still be happy that I made an awesome movie. You know, obviously, if it was a. Like, that's the business. That's a real problem, you know? You know, I can't. You know, I can't be that guy all the time. But I think, like, the more authentic and the more you. You are and the more, like, the messages that you talk about are really important to you, and the way in which you say them is sort of somewhat natural, and you're not kind of being a crazy person, but it comes off as, like, oh, like, I know that guy. Like, if you watch me on film or you listen to this podcast, like, you know me pretty well.

Yeah.

Like, I'm not a different human outside.

Yeah.

The same human being here. I think that's really important. Like, there can't be the veneer of, like, perfection.

Yeah.

You know, like, I'm a fallible human who makes mistakes and up all the time and just try and do my best, you know, And I think that that's important as well when it comes to building a brand, because then you can maintain it.

Yeah.

100%.

Otherwise, man, it's difficult to be perfect.

Yeah.

Well, I think that sort of.

I manage.

I think that authenticity becomes a real cliche.

And I hate the word.

Yeah. But it's. It's a hard thing to get away from how true that is and that to be successful, that's all, like, it really needs to be there. And you can. You will come unstuck eventually if you're pretending to be someone that you're not. And, you know, in military terms, we see this is the whole point of demarcation. That's the whole point of it, is that you get people so exhausted that the mask comes off and you really see who they are.

Yeah.

For those of you who don't know, demarcation is depending on when you did it, is either 96 or 72 hours of no food, no sleep.

Yeah.

It was 96 when I did it. So no food, no sleep for four days. And it's just designed to break you mentally.

And I think that's one of the sort of, like, People. You know the idea of Special Forces guys being crazy fit, like, yes, of course, everyone's very fit.

Right.

Compared to the average human.

Yeah.

But the. One of the reasons why people.

Hours of no food, no sleep.

Yeah.

It was 96 when I did it. So no food, no sleep before get.

So insanely fit is to make selection easier.

Yeah.

And the reason is because nowadays.

And it's just designed to. To break you mentally.

And I think that's one of the sort of like, people, you know the idea of Special Forces guys being crazy fit, like, yes, of course everyone's very fit.

Right.

Compared to the average human.

Yeah.

But the. One of the reasons why people are trying to push to break you and what always ends up happening is the guys that get through and turned out like not to work out, especially in real combat stress, are always the weapon fit gets so insanely fit is to make selection easier. And the reason is because that guys, they're the fittest of the fit. They're the. Because what happened was you couldn't replicate battle stress trying to push to break you. And what always ends up happening is, is the guys that get through and turned out like not to work out, especially in real combat stress are always the weapon fit guys. They're the fittest of the fit. They're the. Because what happened was you couldn't replicate battle stress to them, you couldn't break them because everything's kind of group activities and whatever. So if you're miles to them, you couldn't break them because everything's kind of group activities and whatever. So if you. If you're miles above the average, we never get to see who you are. Whereas for me, at the kit check, I was like. Was above the average. We never get to see who you are. Whereas for me, at the kit check, I was like, this is how I am. Like, yeah, it's. It's. I'm exhausted.

This is.

There is no. There's no holding of an ear.

Yeah. Yeah.

But to that end, I think that that sort of like is. Is painful as it is to say that authenticity, because it will. Are pretending to be. It will come out. And we see that across generous. Exactly.

Supposed to be the nicest person in the world. And you hear these stories come out some horrible shit.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, right. That's. That's what's going on there.

Yeah.

You know, whereas if they're an asshole to everybody, you go like, oh, yeah, that checks out.

Yeah. You know, and. And that's who you are. Like, it's.

You're the. You're the. You're the.

Fair enough. And some people like that. And depending on what you say, that's. Some people are into that.

Yeah.

Madness.

Yeah, I think. Yeah. Trying to.

That.

It's just a lot of weird lines that you gotta. You gotta walk. And I think, like, the scary thing is if you extrapolate it out, like it's a. You know, obviously there's a perfect level of famous, you know, and the perfect level of famous is supporting actor on a sitcom.

Mm.

Joe Rogan. Yeah. Like, supporting actor on a sitcom. Does he say that any?

No, but that's what he was.

That.

Yeah, he was.

Yeah.

And it's like you have money, which is great. Like that, but you don't get bothered like that. So I think it's like, you know, like Cardone would have taken it too far. Like, personal brand for me. Like, he couldn't go, you know, can't.

Walk down the street.

Yeah. Type stuff. You know, Tony Robbins, all that kind of shit. You know, they're apparently the rock. It's really affecting him now because, like, when he had his first kids, he could go to all their stuff. Now he went to his daughter's like, high school basketball game and the game had to get shut down because, like 200,000 people showed up just to see him. You know, that's a real hindrance in life. And so I think, like, if your personal brand goes well, like, the better it goes, the more you give up. And like, I guess hopefully that's an exchange for money, but it's like, at what point does the money not become worth it?

Yeah.

And it's like, how do you back that off?

Yeah.

Because once your content's out there, look at like David Dobrik. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Right. So he disappeared from YouTube because of all the stupid shit that he did.

Yeah.

Right. Still making 10, $12 million a year.

Ticking over in the background, you know.

But his content's forever out there, which means that, like, his profile is no smaller than what it was when he was doing full time videos.

Yeah.

Like, he can't hide. Casey Neistat. Tried to hide, couldn't. Yeah, like, hey, you're still Casey Neistat. Like, everyone still knows your face.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, it's. It's very hard to roll back a large presence on the Internet, social media, whatever it may be.

Yeah.

That's a difficult thing to undo.

So, you know, more in our terms because, you know, to be clear, like, neither of us have any we're talking about personal branding, online being the front of stuff. But neither of us are like famous people just are the face of a business.

Yeah. But I just think like I can see it like, for example, Jeremy is now getting stopped.

Yeah.

In the street. And he loves it at the moment and like you would your first little bit. I've been recognized twice.

Right.

Like totally random like that because my presence is tiny. But it was like those, they just happened to be near me. The three people who watch me, two of them happen to be close. One of them was mom. It's really nice.

Yeah.

Right. But Jeremy gets stopped like in the airports. Are you Jeremy Miner? It's like, yeah. He's like, can I get a photo and stuff like that. Watching your reels and all kinds of like that. So like, you know, but that in five years, if that keeps going like that, that's a real problem.

Yeah.

That's hat and sunglasses everywhere you go kind of thing.

Yeah.

So I wanted to ask you, is there anybody that you have had like apply, you know, to work with you, for you, whatever, and you've looked at their online profile and been like, oh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Big time. People like it. There's just no point associating with people who are like, I guess intentionally provocative but like just for attention's sake.

Yeah.

And there are people who like, there are some people who have like just scumbag reputations too, you know, like there are some big names that have applied to work with us that I have just gone, no, thank you.

Yeah.

Taking the meeting and said, thanks, but no thanks. Appreciate the effort.

Yeah.

You know, just because like one, I just get a weird vibe. Like I had a chat with like some. One of the guys from Shark Tank in the US like that. I was like, this feels weird. I don't like the feel of this. I'd rather not do it. And then I've had a chat with some really, really big coaches in like the sort of Amazon space. And just like the way they spoke, I was like, ah, man. Then I had a look at online and it was old, very much like quick bucky type stuff. And I was like, I can see where this is going to go.

Yeah.

Like FTC is not too far behind.

Yeah.

Like, you know, you got to like, because. Because like when we take on a project, like it's not going to be quiet that we take it on. You know, most people, if we're doing the sales for them, like people say it.

Yeah.

You know, so like we have to be careful with who we associate with. That's why like, you know, we, we took on a client a while ago and like, it turned out I was kind of like, oh fuck, I think it's a scam. You know, I figured it out super early on, ended up like not even being paid the comms. I paid the comms from the reps myself. I was like, because I don't want to be associate Shark Tank in the US like that. And I was like, this feels weird. I don't like the feel of this. I'd rather not do it. And then I've had a chat with some really, really big coaches in like the sort of Amazon space and just like the way they spoke, I was like, man. Then I had a look at online and it was all very much like quick bucky type stuff. And I was like, I can see where this is going to ended with taking anything in case something untoward happened to those people. Like I'm out type thing. And you know, that was a big name.

Yeah.

That person has like, you know, 8 million Instagram followers.

Yeah, no shit.

Yeah.

Right? And like easy to get leads, all that kind of stuff. It could have been a tremendously successful account for us, but for us, for who else? And then it's like if that gets shut down by the ftc. And then all of a sudden, oh, did you hear? Fucking sales sniper was, was selling that. Like, I wonder if they knew it was a scam. And then all of a sudden you're like, you know, then you gotta. People ask you about, you gotta explain it. And you know, I think one thing that we said years ago is like, you never wanna be in a position where you're like worried to answer a phone call.

Yeah.

You know, and so you have to sort of conduct yourself, I guess, with a level of integrity at all times. So that. And like, because like you don't want to be like, yeah. Scared when someone's.

Yeah. On many levels, you don't want that sort of personally for your own trouble. But also within the business thinking we got to cover up for the COVID up. And I say something go, yeah, like.

FTC is not too far behind.

Yeah.

Like, you know, you gotta like, because, because like when we take on a project, like it's not going to be quiet that we take it on.

Many people live their lives like that.

I was like, it's exhaustive, stressful. Like people have two families. Oh, you know, most people, if we're doing the sales for them, like people say it.

Yeah.

You know, so like we have to be careful with who we associate with. How could that be worth it? I'm flat out disappointing one woman in the bedroom.

True. It's too hard.

I can only take that on happy face.

So I know a guy since recently turned out to be a huge fraud.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And, like, I kind of saw it coming. It was in my space. I kind of saw it coming and I sort of distanced myself a little while ago. I was like, a few things don't add up. I'm just gonna be over here and you guys be over there.

Yeah.

And just. Just a couple weeks ago, it all uncovered totally full of all, like. And. And I mean, and spectacularly.

What do you mean full of, like, the awards are not the awards?

No, no, no, not even that. Just representative.

That's why, like, you know, we. We took on a client a while ago and, like, it turned out I was kind of like, ah, I think it's a scam. You know, I figured it out super early on. Ended up, like, not even being paid the comms. I paid the comms from the reps myself. I was like, because I don't want.

To be associated himself as being someone that he wasn't. Right. I mean, I won't go in the details because it's. It's on.

Get it? We're taking anything in case something untoward happened to those people. Like, I'm out type thing and going, it's ongoing.

It's ongoing.

Stay tuned for dog drama.

Yeah.

Oh, dude, there could be. I mean, there is a podcast. It's called the canine paradigm of Dog drama.

Right.

Dog. The dog industry is full of drama. But I think all animal industries. Yeah, totally. But I think all animal industries are. But I mean, one of the things that triggered me to think about this was just the other day, it'll be miles ahead of when this podcast comes out, but a couple of videos of two women that owned a dog train seal. It's a mother, daughter, like, really badly abusing two dogs as board and trains. Right. And so the repercussions of that, they're sunk. Right. Like, it's all over.

You know, that was a big name.

Yeah.

That person has, like, you know, 8 million Instagram followers.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, Right. And, like, easy to get leads, all that kind of stuff. It could have been a tremendously successful account for us, but for us, for who else? And then it's like, if that gets shut down by the ftc. And then all of a sudden, oh, did you hear? Sales sniper was selling that. Like, I Wonder if they knew it was a scam. And then all of a sudden you're like, you know, then you gotta. People ask you about it, you gotta explain it. And you know, I think one thing that we said years ago is like, you never want to be in a position where you're like worried to answer a phone call.

Yeah.

You know, and so you have to sort of conduct yourself, I guess, with a level of integrity at all times. So that. And like, because like you don't want to be like, yeah. Scared when someone's.

Yeah. On many levels you don't want that sort of personally for your own trouble. But also within the business thinking we got to cover up for the COVID up. And I see so many people live their lives like that and it's like, it's exhausting, stressful.

Like people have two families, oh, how could that be worth it? I'm flat out disappointing one woman in the bedroom.

For them. And Good.

Right.

But the whole board and train industry is now you're feeling the herd of that because the repercussions are beyond just them. Because you see two dogs getting smashed around by two people who present really well. And one of them in particular was pretty well respected in her specific niche, Cane Corso breeding.

Right.

But so like, then it's like, oh, wow, that's what happens when I leave my dog with someone. And that the ripples of that are going to be all around the English speaking world, that everybody that's seen that video is now going to be like, oh, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not leaving my dog with someone. That could happen.

Yeah, that's shitty.

So like, there's drama everywhere. And I think that's one of the really interesting things about sort of this niche is that the effects of others tends not to impact.

Well. It's because, like, I think, I think everyone's running the he without sin should not cast stones. And I don't think there's many people in this industry that are without sin. Do you know what I mean? So, like, you know, that we could definitely talk about the dramas, but a lot of the dramas are like, you know, it's all hearsay and conjecture because it's like, like, what are you gonna, what, what physical evidence will there be? You know, like, I know I've like spoken to people who have refund rates of upwards of 60%. It's like, bro, that means you are flat out garbage at what you do.

Yep.

Like, and I know, like a lot of the figures that are posted are fake.

Yep.

But, like, how do you prove that?

Yep.

You know, sometimes the math doesn't work out and it's pretty easy to see, but then, like, am I gonna be the guy that's calling people out online? No.

Yeah.

Because I don't care.

Yeah.

You know, I'm just like, well, I know that's not true. And like, for me, that's enough.

Yeah.

You know, I'm not gonna take your advice.

That's one of the things as well, from a branding standpoint. True. It's too hard.

I can only take that on happy face.

So I. I don't. Guys, this recently turned out to be a huge fraud.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

And, like, I kind of saw it coming. It was in my space. I kind of saw it coming. And I sort of distanced myself a little while ago. I was like, a few things don't add up. I'm just gonna be over here and you guys be over there.

Yeah.

And just. Just a couple weeks ago, when I look at some of our ads and look at the. The comments on the ads from people who are like, that's bullshit. That could never work. And you click through and the people who are trying to do the same thing, only just nowhere near as good. And it's like, the fact that you don't understand how it could. Doesn't mean it can never work.

Yeah, that's. That.

That doesn't line up. There's a guy coming. One of the things about, like, there's no way a Facebook group can make that much money. I've got a group and it doesn't make anywhere near that money.

And it's like, maybe maybe download the link. Maybe maybe have a call then.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe. And it's only 100k. We limited it to 100k because we thought if we did 500.

All uncovered. Totally full of all, like, and. And I mean, and spectacularly.

What do you mean, full of like, the awards are not the awards.

No, no, no. Not even that. Just represented himself as being someone that he wasn't.

Right.

I mean, I won't go in the details because it's. It's ongoing. It's ongoing.

Stay tuned for dog drama.

Yeah.

Oh, dude.

People lose their mind.

Yeah.

And it's like the two. You can definitely do 500k from a Facebook group a month. For sure. You can do more than that. Depends on ticket price. The real. The real. It's volume of sale. It's. It's not like that's the only. The barrier of entry in terms. The barrier in terms of how much you can make is just how much. Like I've heard of people doing a million dollars from a Facebook group. It's not possible with what I sell.

Right.

Like, you know what I mean? So like it's not possible physically unless I collected like 100% of cash up front. Right. So like it could be done, but it'd be very difficult. Whereas if, like, I know the guys who are doing that one, I'm not sure if it's revenue or cash. Like, I, I would like to hear that and see that whether they're talking about like, you know, accruals or, you know, my, my gut saying it's probably accruals.

There could be. I mean, there is a podcast, it's called the canine paradigm of dog drama.

Right.

Dog. The dog industry is full of drama. But I think all animal industry.

Yeah, good. Million dollars worth of in contract value per month. It's fantastic. I would like to see the cash collection on that. But it's like much more expensive. It's like $30,000, $35,000. Masterminds.

Yeah.

Right. So like you get three paid in full is 100k.

Yeah, yeah. Right.

So you got to do is get 30 paid in full.

Totally. But I think all animal industries are. But I mean, one of the things that triggered me to think about this was just the other day, it'll be miles ahead of when this podcast comes out, but a couple of videos of.

Yeah, you know, at seventh level, we signed 200 plus people every single month with an average of 60 cash collection. But we have like, you know, we have 3,000, 8,000, 15,000.

Yeah.

You know, like, so our average front end cash collection is 3,600. So like we'd have to sell an awful lot. And we have multiple marketing channels from the Facebook group itself. We probably sell, you know, 4 or 500 of the 1.5 that we make every month. You know, that's cash, not accruals. But it just totally depends on what you're selling. You know, that's why like that's the thing about business of two women that.

Owned a dog train seal as a mother, daughter, like really badly abusing two dogs as board and trains.

Right.

And so the repercussions of that are, they're sunk.

Right.

Like it's all over.

Getting different conversation. But all the things are so nuanced. Like what if you just sold 100k product.

Yeah.

Only did pays and fools.

Yeah.

Like that. And you were known for that. You were good at that. You had a good group and you did big consulting packages and you sold five of them a month.

Yeah.

It's like, hey, how to average for them and good.

Right.

But the whole board and train industry is. Now you're feeling the herd of that because the repercussions are beyond just them.

Because you see 100k, you know what I mean, per client or 50k collected per client per month. Like, it's just how you set things up.

Yeah.

Like, and every business has got pros.

It sells super yacht timeshares.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. Now, the guy I had in just before, I actually helped him develop his business model two years ago and he, he bought like two or three sessions off me and he was kind of wondering and I was like, hey, man, like, if I'm you, this is what I do. And he was like, okay, thanks. And then he came back to me.

Two years, two dogs getting smashed around by two people who present really well. And one of them in particular was.

He's like, all right, so I did what you said. I'm making $130,000 a month. What do I do now?

Nice.

Literally. And I was like, oh, take me through what you're doing.

Pretty well respected in her specific niche, Cane Corso breeding.

Right?

What I said again?

Yeah. What did I say? I was like, yeah. So he's like, yeah, I did everything you said. I was like, okay, cool. This is what you need to do now. Structure this. Do this, this. So anyway, so we kind of went through that about what he's doing next. But.

Right.

But so like, then it's like, oh, wow, that's what happens when I leave my dog with someone and that the ripples of that are going to be all around the, you know, English speaking.

You know, he has a, like a real low end product which is like, just builds up tons of recurring, you know, really clever model. I happen to have, like written it out for him if you do. But you know, now he's got, you know, 500 people giving him 2.99amonth. Yeah, right. So that's great. Plus he has some other upsell in.

The world that everybody that's seen that video is now going to be like, oh, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not leaving my dog with someone. That could happen.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, that's shitty.

So like the, there's drama everywhere. And I think that's one of the really interesting.

Like that. But he's selling that from a Facebook group.

Yeah.

You know, and a few other methodologies. But then like that dude's doing A pretty high volume, but obviously like he's not going to collect more than two or three hundred bucks per sale. So like the amount of front end cash that he can collect from that is just a bit more limited.

Same things about sort of this niche is that the effects of others tends not to impact well.

It's because like, I think, I think everyone's running the he without sin should still do plenty, but it's just more limited. Is his strategy less effective? No, it's just a different business model.

Yeah.

That, that level of nuance is interesting in the. Especially not that we're old, but in people younger than us that they're kind of not interested in that. Like, you look at TikTok cast stones.

And I don't think there's many people in this industry that are without saying. Do you know what I mean?

You can't even say I'm on TikTok. You say arm people like, no, like, so if you're like showing any, like, let me consider that they're like, no, you consider nothing.

Yeah. So like, you know that we could definitely talk about the dramas, but a lot of the dramas.

Right.

I want it to be a fact.

Fuck you.

Right?

Yeah.

Rather than like, yeah, well, the moon is square. Yeah, that's fine, that's fine. Say it like that, that's fine.

But if you go like, you know, round, like, you know, it's all hearsay and conjecture because it's like, like, what are you gonna roundish if.

No, if you go, well, if that then this people like, no, it's a way.

What, what physical evidence will there be? You know, like, I know I've like spoken to people.

It's, it's a, it's definitely a way. And there's no room to think about anything.

Yeah, that's what the whole, that's the whole Internet marketing world though, because it's all about the headline and the click and all that kind of stuff and it's just not the way it is. And it's, it's actually frustrating because like my brand is almost built on nuance.

Yeah.

Right. So like what. The way in which I talk, it doesn't lend itself to like going viral.

Yeah.

Total as if you look at Jeremy, he talks in absolutisms. Right. I like, I see too much into the matrix to talk that way. I can't do it. Like, you have refund rates of upwards of 60%. It's like, bro, that means you are flat out garbage at what you do.

Yeah.

Like, and I know like A lot of the figures that are posted are fake. It would be antithetical to what I believe.

Yeah.

Because someone could go, well, should I do this in this situation? Yeah, but like, how do you prove that?

Yeah.

You know, sometimes the math doesn't work out and my answer is almost like, well, it depends what happened before it.

Yeah.

So like when I, when I coach, pretty easy to see. But then like, am I going to be the guy that's calling people out online? No, people. Like, I did an inner circle coaching session the other day and people were like, holy fuck. Like, that was a good session. Because I was like, it was so nuanced, like, and specific to the people who were there.

Yeah. And.

But it was like all of it. Like, the guy goes, can you review this part of my call? And we listen to it. I go, I have no feedback for this. This. It was like, why not? I was like, because, like I haven't listened to the previous 20 minutes because I don't care.

Yeah.

You know, I'm just like, well, I know that's not true. And like for me that's enough. It's like, need the context and like, where's. I have no idea. Like, I could give you feedback on how you said things.

Yeah.

You know, I'm not going to take your advice.

That's one of the things as well. From a branding standpoint.

Yeah.

You know, but what I was teaching is, I was teaching what, what he needed to work on is he over interrupted. We didn't over interrupt. The way in which he interrupted was the problem. You know, like you didn't do a Vogue.

When I look at some of our ads and look at the, the comments on the ads from people who are like, oh, that's, that could never work. And you click through and they're people.

Who are trying to lead in. Like, if you're just going to interrupt someone, you just start talking. It's very jarring. And so, but if you interrupt something, you go, okay, like that, that, that makes sense. Do you mind if I ask you? Then it's almost like you're, you're giving the person room to back off, you know, so you can get away with it a lot more. And then from there he was like, he never changed his pace when he was asking questions or like trying to get information versus, like trying to ins, like elicit an emotion. And you can't do it though, do.

The same thing, only just nowhere near as good. And it's like the fact that you don't understand how it could like, you.

Have to pace, you know? So, like, if there's a series of. Like, for example, if I'm. If I want to ask, this doesn't.

Mean it can never work.

Yeah, that's. That.

That doesn't ask you how much money you make. Right. Just going, okay, so how much money do you make? Is a really bad way of doing that. So I'd have to stack that in a way that would make sense to you. Like, whenever I ask for a sale, I always. Because I have to ask for the credit card now. They've already said yes and that kind of stuff, but it's still going. Okay, so what's your credit line up?

There's a guy coming. One of the things about, like, there's no way a Facebook group could make that much money. I've got a group and it doesn't make anywhere near that money.

And it's like, maybe, maybe download the link card. That can be a jarring, like, little emotional stunt for somebody. So I'll go like, okay, man. So you. So this is your full name?

Yeah.

Is there a middle name? Okay, cool. This is your phone number that I have on file, and this is the email that I have. Is that all correct? Yes. And what's the credit card number? Right. It's. Again, it's just an ease. I'm into it, you know, so I teach a lot of that stuff. You know, maybe. Maybe have a call then.

Yeah, yeah, maybe.

It's very nuanced and like, you know, pacing out people. So if I want to ask you that question, how much do you make? I'll be like, okay, cool. So, you know, like, like, let's just say we are able to help you get the skills in order to kind your online business. And it's only 100k. We limited it to 100k because we thought if we did 500 plus 2, 20k a month, like, is that what you want to be making or is that the totality of what you want to make? Or is that kind of what you want to make from this? No, it's what I want to make from this. Okay. And what's your total revenue goal that you want to be pulling in? Personally, People lose their mind.

Yeah.

And it's like the two. You can definitely do 500k from a Facebook group a month. For sure you can do more than that. Depends on ticket price. The real. The real. Hey, it's 40k a month. Okay. And just so I can see like, like, what's the gap between where you at and that and they're like, okay, I'm. Well, I'm at 30. Okay, cool. So you're making 10k a month. You want to make 20 from this. We have a gap of 10 total. Is that right? Yes. Okay, cool. So before you started talking to me, you know, so I would do it really fast. The reason why I do it fast is because I don't want to give you a chance to think. You just need to spit me numbers because then they're the truth. It's very hard to lie that quickly. And I can stack other things on it's volume of sale. It's. It's not like that's the only. The barrier of entry in terms the top of it and around it as well, to kind of, I guess, make it a bit more bamboozling.

But.

Yeah, and I think you're pacing barrier.

In terms of how much you can make. It's just how much. Like, I've heard of people doing a million dollars from a Facebook group. It's not super quick.

Yeah.

But. But also I think it conveys that it's kind of inconsequential to you.

Yeah.

It's just one of many numbers I need here.

Yeah.

Rather than being like, give me that.

Big number possible with what I sell.

Right.

Like, you know what I mean? So, like, it's not possible physically unless I collected like 100% of cash up front. Right. So I can. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so one of the many I need, it's just way less jarring. And then from there, like, you slow down when you want them to think, you know, so like, you give people space to think, and then you start, like, you start teaching. And so when I sell, this is my normal cadence. Okay. So, like, before you started talking to me, were you. Were you out there looking for ways to kind of help grow your business or, like, what have you been doing? Right. Because I want to give you plenty of time to kind of internally figure that out. It could be done, but it'd be very difficult. Whereas if, like, I know the guys who are doing that one and then I can. You can speed up and slow down. It's just a little.

Yeah.

Depends on where you're at, what you're trying to do. But I had to. Not sure if it's revenue or cash. Like, I. I would like to hear that and see that whether they're talking about. Teach a lot of that really, really nuanced stuff because, like, they're good. They're inner circle. Like, they're good at what they do. Yeah, they just need like all the tweaks.

That's interesting. Like in MySpace we call that like behavioral momentum where we just sort of get it. Like, here's a little thing and a little thing and a little thing. And then before too long, like, you.

Know, accruals, or my gut saying it's probably accruals, let's say, but even that's good. Million dollars worth of in contract value per month. It's fantastic. I would like to see and ask.

Them for the big thing. And you're still just churning along.

Yeah, yeah, it's very like, you know, depending on how, what emotions you want to invoke and when and how you want to be perceived by the person is kind of like, like, like how you are at the beginning of a call and how you are at the end of the call. It's like a different human, you know, it's very much like pragmatic, sort of dead inside the cash collection on that. But it's like much more expensive. It's like $30,000, $35,000. Mastermind.

Yeah.

Right. So like you get three paid in full. It's 100K.

Yeah, yeah. Right.

So you gotta do is get fucking 30 paid in full. Somewhat uninterested. Not like uninterested in them, but uninterested in like. Oh yeah, like we're just going through a very simple process. And then I tend to like.

So it's very formality.

Then there comes a time where I slow it down and then speed it right up so I go like boom. It's sort of a cadence is like boom, boom, boom, boom, booms.

Yeah.

You know, at seventh level, we sign 200 plus people every single month with an average of 60 cash collection. But we have like, you know, we have 3,000, 8,000, 15,000.

Okay.

Right. So that's the cadence of the calls. And you kind of go up and go down and go up and go down.

And that's an NEPQ thing, right?

Well, yeah, that's. But it's sort of like with a Matt Ryder flair. Yeah, it's like I, like, I am really good at certain types of sales. Like, I'm really good at. Highly emo.

Yeah.

You know, like so our average front end cash collection is 3,600. So like what if selling okay? You know, so anything where I can talk to the individual and they can have like, there's an. We'd have to sell an awful lot. And we have multiple marketing channels from the Facebook group itself. We probably sell, you know, outcome for them personally in terms of like solving the problem or getting the product or service or whatever. Like that's where I'm especially good at. And so like reading the person and eliciting the emotions that I want to elicit and stuff like that. That's really my form of selling, you know, 4 or 500 of the 1.5 that we make every month. You know, that's cash, not accruals. But it just totally depends on what you're selling, you know, that's why like that's the thing about business and work. Like B2B. It doesn't translate that water like an enterprise sale.

Yeah.

You know.

Yeah.

So it's not emotional. The last thing I wanted to ask you about, have you had it like have you observed anyone online in. In this space, sales coaching and consulting, cult assaulting, cult salting that has given up a fortune for fame? Like that you've seen go like the bed or just like, you know, been different conversation.

But all the things are so nuanced. Like what if you just sold 100k product?

Yeah.

Only did pays and false.

Yeah.

And you were known for that. You were good at that. You had a good group and you.

Didn'T have something go wrong monetarily that brings them attention, negative attention. But they're like, oh, that attention. I like that. And they go hard in the paint and decide like, I want more followers and I want to be hated. I want interactions online rather than the money that could come of it.

Well, it's hard to say because I wouldn't know.

Okay.

Do you know what I mean? Because the outward would always be, look at all this big consulting packages and you sold five of them a month.

Yeah.

It's like, hey, how to average 100k? You know, I mean, per client or 50k collected per client. Engine of money that I'm getting. You know, I got told a couple years ago that if you buy a Lambo, you'll pay it off in a week.

Yeah.

You know, which I thought was kind of gross, you know, but I think I've seen, I've seen people overdo it so. Because I don't have any of the information. Right. So I couldn't, I couldn't know. I could make some assumptions, but per month, like, it's just how you set things up, you know, like. And every business has got pros super young. I've seen people I think try to be everything to everyone and it not go well.

Time shares.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. The guy I had in just before I actually Help. And I know their business kind of like just sort of ticks along and does okay and provides a decent life for the, for the people that, that do that. But it's like, I think a lot of people, especially in coaching consulting, they're looking for the next way to generate the next sale. That's what they're doing. Helped him develop his business model two years ago and he, he bought like two or three sessions off me and he was kind of wondering and I was like, hey, man, like, if I'm you, this is what I do. And he was like, okay, thanks. And then he came back to me. Two years. Like, very few people from what I've seen, have thought about like the long term branding ramifications and what they want to be known for and having a content direction, like what we have, you know, I mean, so it's like, sit down. What are we doing? What promos are we going to do? Where's the business headed? What does the theming need to be? And what should we be talking about? And then from there, like, that's planned out somewhat in advance, you know. And so later he's like, all right, so I do what you said. I'm making $130,000 a month. What do I do now? And we have an overall brand. This is kind of how we want to be known. This is what we want to do. And I just thought that's literally. And I was like, oh, take me through what you're doing. It's not very common.

Okay.

You know, because it looks like a lot of it's sort of peppering stuff. And I've seen a couple of brands which I won't name the people that I can see have sold out.

I mean, what I said again, what did I say?

I was like, yeah. So he's like, yeah, I did everything he said. I was like, okay, cool. This is what you need to do to a way of doing things that only generates money. Okay, now structure this. Do this, this. So anyway, so we kind of went through that about what he's doing next. But right. So like, because there are things that like, like, for example, like, I've said it before, if I decided to start selling sales biz op. Fuck. $10 million a month.

Yeah.

Like, I could make seventh level, a $100 million a year revenue and company in probably three or four months. And so it's like. But there's long term ramifications to doing that. And do I think it's ethical? No. Do I think it's sustainable? No. Do I think I can make a shitload of money. You know, he has a, like a real low end product which is like just builds up a short period of time by 25 houses and probably retire. Yes.

Yeah.

You know, but is that like the legacy that wants to be left? Is that what the brand of seventh level is designed to do? No, it's not.

So what would that look like? That would be you market to people who are not salespeople, truck drivers, whatever.

Yeah.

Recurring, you know, really clever model. I happen to have like written it out for him if you do. But you know, now he's got, you know, 500 people giving him 209amonth.

Yeah.

Right. So that's fucking great. Plus he has some other upsell and.

Say in six weeks I can turn you into a 30k closer.

Yeah.

Take the pain away. I'll teach you a skill. We're in your living room. You can earn 10k a month.

Yeah.

And you would for sure teach them a skill, but they would not be able to monetize it in that way.

No, it's just too, it's just like, it's too hard.

Yeah.

You know, and with the problem is there would be people who did it.

Yeah, of course.

Right.

And you would make sure of that because you put them in a position like.

Yeah.

And like that. But he's selling that from a Facebook group.

Yeah.

You know, and a few other methodologies, but the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000, that actually does it. Those become all your testimonials.

Yeah.

If you sign up enough people, you have enough testimonials and it's like, well, your mindset's bad.

It's always comes back to the mindset.

So like I see that and like, to me, like, listen, I get it, get it. Do the business thing. I totally understand. But that's to me like that's the start of the sinking ship.

Yeah.

As soon as people start like going after what I consider to be the most, then like that dude's doing a pretty high volume, but obviously like he's not going to collect more than two or three hundred bucks per sale. So like the amount of front end cash that he can collect from that is just a bit more limited and still do plenty, but it's just more limited. Is his strategy less effective? No, it's just a different vulnerable population.

Yeah.

To me that's like, okay, the clock's now on. I don't know how long that clock goes for, but I know it doesn't go for more than three or four years. Because like the FTC will ensure it doesn't go from that long.

Yeah.

Because like those businesses are incredibly easy to scale quickly. Now when you scale fast, you get audited.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden people start poking through in business model.

Yeah.

That, that level of nuance is interesting in the especially not that we're poking.

Into things and all that kind of stuff. Like we're going for the afr, Right. The Australian Financial Review, Fastest growing companies. Our accountant sat down and said, you'll definitely get top 10. Which means you will be old but.

In people younger than us that they're kind of not interested in that. Like you look at Tick Tock, you can't even say I'm on Tick Tock. You say I'm. People like, no. Like, so if you're like showing any. Like let me consider that they're like, no, you consider nothing.

Yeah.

Okay.

So they're going. So they said, do we really want to do this? Because it will trigger a full audit. The top 10 get ordered every year.

Right. Right.

And I was like. And I go, well if you go order, it'll be okay because it'll be totally fine. And he goes, usually I recommend against it, but in the case of you guys, because you'd probably get a ton of consulting clients out of it, it's probably worth doing.

Yeah. Right.

I want it to be a fact.

You right.

Yeah.

Rather than like. Yeah, well, you know, because we'll be.

The only sort of sales related business there.

Yeah.

So when we go to those things, we'll get a bunch of million seven figure consulting deals.

Yeah.

Like we have with some of the other businesses that we've been consulting with recently, you know.

Yeah.

So, you know, pros and cons. Pros and cons.

I mean that's a nuance. But I mean that ties back to saying before that you never want to live your life.

The moon is square.

Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Say it like that. That's fine.

But if you go like, you know, roundish.

If.

No, if you go well, if that then this people like, no, it's a way. It's. It's a, it's definitely a way. And there's no room to think about anything.

Yeah.

That's what the whole. That's the.

In a way where you're worried about the phone ringing.

Yeah.

You're just like if the audit comes, I know that that's going to be a headache.

Yeah.

But I'm not going to get in Trouble out of it now it's going to. Cause it's going to cost me a bunch of money to do the. And time.

Yeah. But everything, we try and run everything in a way where it's above board. We try and treat our employees well and pay them well and make sure that like you know, I think we've talked about it before but like oh, Internet marketing world though because it's all about the headline and the click and Covid over a lot of businesses but it mainly over shitty ones.

Yeah.

You know, so I apologize if you're one of the ones that have got fucked over. But chances are.

Or very young ones as well.

Yeah, very young ones. But like a lot of the established businesses that went down is because like they just, they were doing things in a way which was legal yet probably not, right?

Yeah.

You know, just the way you employ.

People, your tack, all that kind of stuff and it's just not the way it is. And it's, it's actually frustrating because blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Like if you're taking a normal cash and having contractors mate, like you know, you, you, you, you benefited for that for 10 years.

Yeah.

Like you should have put the money away.

Yeah.

You know, like my brand is almost built on nuance.

Yeah.

Right. So like what. The way in which I talk, it doesn't lend itself to like going viral.

I used to have a client, Potts Point and I used to park illegally every time I went there. And of the probably hundreds of times I went there, I got three parking fines. And every time I wasn't not mad at all. I was like, this is, you won this round.

Yeah.

This is the way it goes. And I thought that of so many businesses that.

Yeah.

Totals. If you look at Jeremy, he talks in absolutisms.

Right.

I like jumping up and down complaining there's no government support for me. And it's like, well you, you didn't pay a lot of the tax that you probably should have.

Yeah.

Like, and this was your opportunity to get it back.

Whereas like I pay, you know, I'm getting a seven figure tax bill.

Yeah.

It's like, well so it's like if something shits the bed and the government is the one shutting me down, then I would expect to get that seven figures back. Hey, like I see too much into the matrix to talk that way. I can't do it. Like.

Yeah.

Which is I think fair.

Yeah.

You know, plus I'm paying payroll tax. Do you know what payroll tax is for? It would be antithetical to what I believe.

Yeah.

Because someone could go, well, should I do this in the situation it pays like the construction industries, like supers.

Really?

Yeah.

And my answer is almost like, well, it depends what happened before it.

Yeah.

So like, when I, when I coach, that's what it was designed for. So that's, that's the main functionality of payroll tax is to pay the superannuation for industries that don't pay superannuation but should.

Yeah.

So, like, it's, hey, man, you're doing the right things. So we'll you over and you give us 6% of your payroll, and then we'll give it to other people who aren't doing the right things. So.

I don't believe you. The government would never.

People, like, I did an inner circle coaching session the other day and people were like, holy.

Like, the government would never take money off of people who are doing the right thing and give it to people who are not. That would never happen.

That's true. I actually, I, I go on, I go on here on record.

How dare you?

Yeah.

How dare you reply it.

I'll have a chat with Andrew Tate about it.

His marketing is genius.

That was a good test. Because I was like, it was so nuanced, like, and specific to the people who were there.

Yeah. And.

But it was like, all of it. Like, the guy goes, can you review this part of my call? And we listen to it.

Yeah.

It's insane.

Every now and then you see him break character and he'll say, 70 guys. I go, I have no feedback for this. He's like, why not? I was like, because, like, I haven't listened to the previous 20 minutes. I don't have triple.

Yeah.

Like, he can't even. But I mean, I feel bad for a little losers that are like, yeah, that's the problem.

Right. And again. But that's the ticking time clock. Because the moment you start marketing to the vulnerable.

Yeah.

Like, then, like, the time clock is on now. He'll make so much money, he'll never have to work again. He will make $100 million in the next six months.

It's like, need the context.

And like, where's. I have no idea. Like, I could give you feedback on how you said things.

Yeah.

Like, and he'll disappear.

Disappear.

He'll.

He'll, like, you want to know when, when he disappears. The moment he flogs an NFT jerkin, that is the end of him. Right? Like, Jake, Paul, all those dudes, man. Like, they're all flogging NFTs. And like, now it's sort of getting a little.

Yeah.

You know, but what I was teaching is, I was teaching what, what he needed to work on. Is he over eagle? Like I think one of the guys at Celsius got arrested for insider trading or interrupted. He didn't over interrupt. The way in which he interrupted was the problem, you know, like he didn't do a vocal lead in like if you're just going to interrupt someone, you just start talking. It's very jarring and so, but if you interrupt something, right. Because he knew it was happening. I think it was Celsius, which is now bankrupt.

Yeah.

Right. So like that to me is like the final crescendo of the scam artist.

That's the, that's the last hurrah.

Yeah.

You do like a moonshot and if an NFT and then you rug pull it in you like that's your final, your final thing.

That's your goodbye present to yourself.

Over a bunch of 18 year old. You go, okay, like that, that, that makes sense. Do you mind if I ask you then it's old to have taken mom and dad's credit card, put it in their crypto wallet.

Yeah.

And are angry because they asked a girl out and she said no. And so now they're inspired by hatred for the rest of their life.

Yeah, man. Like, you know, you know it's, it's really easy to do like because you can see like I've seen the numbers on biz ops, you know what I mean? And some, listen, some biz ops are legit. They're really good. We do the marketing for a biz op. It's almost like you're, you're giving the person room to back off, you know, so you can get away with it a lot more. And then from there he was like, he never changed his pace when he was asking questions or like trying to get information versus like trying to like elicit an emotion. And you can't do it that way. It's a super high end. Bizarre only for accredited investors. Like it's 5, it's 500k plus. These people have like significant liquidity, significant assets, the due diligence. It's a fucking six month close. It takes goddamn forever. But they're great deals. And it is a bizarre, you know, but that's a very established, very high end biz op. Right. Where like it's a very complicated sale because those people have lawyers and you know, you know, but we've also been a part of like lower end biz ops and it's like, hey, like, you have to pace, you know? So, like, if there's a series of. Like, for example, if I'm. If I want to see the. You know, and like, some of them were good, some of them were not. Like, we. The ones that were not, we got rid of as fast as we figured it out. But it's like, it just makes marketing easy. Are you fucking unhappy? Yes. Sweet. Do you want me to take the pain away and tell you a skill or give you a thing that will give you free money excuse how much money you make? Right? Just going, okay, so how much money do you make is a really bad. Because, like, what a biz op is, it's like coaching programs are designed to teach people something. So I'd have to stack that in a way that would make sense to you. Like, whenever I ask for a sale, I always. Because I have to ask for the credit card now. They've already said yes and that kind of stuff. But it's still going. Okay, so what's your credit? Right? Who. Who want to be taught to then translate that into work and skill and money. Right? So coaching programs are like card that can be a jarring, like, little emotional stunt for somebody. So I'll go, like, their cost per acquisition is a bit higher because, like, there's a higher level of intent there. Biz op is people who see themselves who have no skill and want to find a way to make money where it doesn't take more work or more skills. And it's the business opportunity, hey, do this stupidly easy thing and make money. Right? There's a loophole. It's like, oh, is there. Okay, man. So you. So this is your full name?

Yep.

Is there a middle name? Okay, cool. This is your phone number that I have on file. Right, Right. So like, you. You like that marketing is really easy. And so, like, it's a. I think it's a really big draw card for a lot of people who don't do branding or don't do it very well. Don't have clear. And this is the email that I have. Is that all correct? Yes. And what's the credit card number? Right. It's again, messaging and don't have a direction because they start to reach the outer limits, their conversions just to ease them into it, you know. So I teach a lot of that stuff. You know, reach circles have merged. So the only thing you can do from there is just burn cold traffic. And you can't burn cold traffic into, like, an information product because, like, it's Just going to be too expensive. You'll end up paying $5,000 to get a $6,000 sale. You know, it's very nuanced and like, you know, pacing out people. So if I want to ask you that question, how much do you make? I'll be like, oh, so the only way you can do it is by going after. More vulnerable, easier to. Okay, cool. So you know, like, like, let's just say we are able to help you get the skills in order to kind of bring your online business sort of influence people. But then from there, like there's only so many those around.

Yeah.

You know, so then you start burning and then I've seen the edges of that burn and it's like, dude, the numbers get insane. Yeah, I've seen dudes spend $15,000 a day on like, on ads to wear. Like a booked call for just a 15 minute discovery. It's 2,20k a month. Like, is that what you want to be making or is that the totality of what you want to make? Or is that kind of what you want to make from this? No, it's what I want to make from this. Okay, and what's your total revenue goal that you want to be pulling in? Personally, it's costing 2,3000 bucks. Wow, crazy numbers, man. And like, instead of backing it off and like trying to rebrand and go back out, they just turn it up harder and they just chase large sales. And it's, I've seen it, it's chase it into the ground. All right, bro. I've sat down with clients who are doing it and I'm like, hey man, like, this is what's happening. It's 40k a month. Okay. And just so I can see like, like what's the gap between where you're at in that, Like, I'm on your team, but I see what's happening. We need to have a chat about this. And because I've, I have the benefit of like, yes, I've run a few businesses, but I've seen a lot. Yeah, I've been involved in many. So now it's like I can see what's happening and provide them with advice. And they're like, okay, I'm. Well, I'm, I'm at 30. Okay, cool. So you're making 10k a month. You want to make 20 from this? We have a gaps. They almost will never take it. Yeah, like I could, I could lay out the next six months of their life of 10 total. Is that right? Yes. Okay, cool. So before you Started talking to me, you know, so I would do it really fast. The reason why I do it fast is because I don't want to give you a chance to think. You just need to spit me numbers, because this is what's gonna happen to you if you don't fix it right now. And none of them will listen. But it is what it is.

Whoo. All right.

All right.

I can wrap it there.

Sweet. If you guys do want that kind of advice, if you want me to tell you if your business is terrible or doing great because of my hide and sight, then you can go ahead and book a call. We have, like, I think two spots open. Then there's the truth.

Mm.

It's very hard to lie that quickly. And I can stack other things on for consulting right now for people who want to scale up and ramp up their sales and marketing.

Okay.

It's called the business growth blueprint, so we never advertise it. It's the first time anyone's ever heard that.

Okay.

But you can. There'll be a link somewhere down below where you can go ahead and apply. We can usually take on, like, two or three a month because it's like an eight to 12 week process that's very time intensive for all the hierarchy.

Okay.

Top of it and around it as well to kind of, I guess, make it a bit more bamboozling.

But. Yeah.

And I think you're pacing super quick. Yeah, but. But also I think it conveys that it's kind of inconsequential to you.

Yeah.

It's just one of many numbers I need here.

Yeah.

Rather than being like, give me that big number.

Cooling cheap boys.

Get on it.

Get on it. If you do like this content, like, subscribe, hit the notification bell. If your audio only. Well done. Go and check it out on the YouTube channel if you want to see my beautiful face and Pat's face.

Pat's also face.

Yes.

All right, guys. Thanks. Bye. Put that coffee down.

Coffee.

Yeah, yeah.

One of the many I need.

It's just way less jarring. And then from there, like, you slow down, close his own when you want them to think, you know, so, like, you give people space to think, and then you start, like, you start teaching. And so when I sell, this is my normal cadence. Okay, so, like, before you started talking to me, were you. Were you out there looking for ways to kind of help grow your business or, like, what have you been doing? Right. Because I want to give you plenty of time to kind of internally figure that out, and then I can you can speed up and slow down. It's just a little.

Yeah.

Depends on where you're at, what you're trying to do. But I had to teach a lot of that really, really nuanced stuff because, like, they're good. They're inner circle. Like, they're good at what they do.

Yeah.

They just need, like, all the tweaks.

That's interesting. Like, in my space, we call that, like, behavioral momentum where we just sort of get it. Like, here's a little thing and a little thing and a little thing, and then before too long, I can ask for the big thing. And you're still just churning along.

Yeah, yeah.

It's very, like, you know, depending on how. What emotions you want to invoke and when and how you want to be perceived by the person is kind of like. Like. Like how you are at the beginning of a call and how you are at the end of the call is like a different human. You know, it's very much, like, pragmatic, sort of dead inside, somewhat uninterested. Not, like, uninterested in them, but uninterested in, like. Oh, yeah. Like, we're just going through a very simple process. And then I tend to, like.

So it's very formality.

But about. But about. But about. But about. Then there comes a time where I slow it down and then speed it right up so I go like, boom. It's sort of a cadence is like, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Okay.

Right. So that's the cadence of the calls. And you kind of go up and go down and go up and go down.

And that's an ape thing, right?

Well, yeah, that's. But it's sort of like, with a Matt Rider flair. Yeah. It's like, I, like, I am really good at certain types of sales. Like, I'm really good at highly emotive selling.

Okay.

You know, so anything where I can talk to the individual and they can have, like, there's an outcome for them personally in terms of, like, solving the problem or getting the product or service or whatever. Like, that's where I'm especially good at. And so, like, reading the person and eliciting the emotions that I want to elicit and stuff like that. That's really my form of selling, you know? So, like, B2B. It doesn't translate. That water like an enterprise sale.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So it's not emotional. The last thing I want to ask you about, have you had it like, have you observed anyone online in. In this space? Sales, coaching and consulting, Cult assaulting.

Yeah.

Cult salting that has given up a fortune for fame like that you've seen go like the bed or just like, you know, have something go wrong monetarily, that brings them attention, negative attention, but they're like, oh, that attention. I like that. And they go hard in the paint and decide like, I want more followers and I want to be hated. I want interactions online rather than the money that could come of it.

Well, it's hard to say because I wouldn't know.

Okay.

Jeremy. Because the outward would always be, look at all this attention and money that I'm getting. You know, I got told a couple of years ago that if you buy a Lambo, you'll pay it off in a week.

Yeah.

You know, which I thought was kind of gross, you know, but I think I've seen, I've seen people overdo it, so. Because I don't have any of the information. Right. So I couldn't, I couldn't know. I could make some assumptions, but I've seen people, I think, try to be everything to everyone and it not go well.

Okay.

And I know their business kind of like just sort of ticks along and does okay and provides a decent life for the, for the people that do that. But it's like, I think a lot of people, especially in coaching consulting, they're looking for the next way to generate the next sale. That's what they're doing. Like, very few people, from what I've seen, have thought about, like the long term branding ramifications and what they want to be known for and having a content direction. Like we have. You know what I mean? So it's like, sit down. What are we doing? What promos are we gonna do? Where's the business headed? What does the theming need to be and what should we be talking about? And then from there, like, that's planned out somewhat in advance, you know, and so we have an overall brand. This is kind of how we want to be known. This is what we want to do. And I just don't. That's not very common.

Okay.

You know, because it looks like a lot of it's sort of peppering stuff. And I've seen a couple of brands which I won't name. The people that I can see have sold out to a way of doing things that only generates money.

Okay.

Right. So, like, because there are things that, like, like, for example, like, I've said it before, if I decided to start selling sales biz op. $10 million a month.

Yeah.

Like, I could make seventh level a $100 million a year revenue and company in probably three or four months. And so it's like. But there's long term ramifications to doing that. And do I think it's ethical? No. Do I think it's sustainable? No. Do I think I can make a shitload of money in a short period of time, buy 25 houses and probably retire? Yes.

Yeah.

You know, but is that like the legacy that wants to be left? Is that what the brand of seventh level is designed to do? No, it's not.

So what would that look like? That would be. You market to people who are not salespeople, truck drivers, whatever.

Yeah.

And say in six weeks I can turn you into a 30k closer.

Yeah.

Take the pain away. I'll teach you a skill. We're in your living room. You can earn 10k a month.

Yeah.

And you would for sure teach them a skill, but they would not be able to monetize it in that way.

No, it's just too. It's just like, it's too hard.

Yeah.

You know, and. But the problem is there would be people who did it.

Yeah, of course.

Right.

And you would make sure of that because you put them in a position like.

Yeah.

But then the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000, that actually does it. Those become all your testimonials.

Yeah.

If you sign up enough people, you have enough Tutsimonos, and it's like, well, your mindset's bad.

It's always comes back to the mindset.

So, like, I see that and like, to me, like, listen, I get it, get it. Do the business thing. I totally understand. But that's to me, like, that's the start of the sinking ship.

Yeah.

As soon as people start, like going after what I consider to be the most vulnerable population.

Yeah.

To me that's like, okay, the clock's now on. I don't know how long that clock goes for, but I know it doesn't go for more than three or four years because, like, the FTC will ensure it doesn't go from that long.

Yeah.

Because like, those businesses are incredibly easy to scale quickly. Now when you scale fast, you get audited.

Yeah.

And then all of a sudden people start poking through and poking into things and all that kind of stuff. Like, we're going for the afr, right? The Australian Financial Review. Fastest Growing companies. Our accountant sat down and said, you will definitely get top 10, which means you will be audited.

Okay.

So they're going. So they said, do we really want to do this? Because it will trigger a full audit. The top 10 get audited every year.

Right, right.

And I was like. And I go, well, if we go order, it'll be okay. He goes, it'll be totally fine. And he goes, usually I recommend against it, but in the case of you guys, because you'd probably get a ton of consulting clients out of it. It's probably worth doing.

Yeah.

You know, because we'll be the only sort of sales related business there.

Yeah.

So when we go to those things, we'll get a bunch of million seven figure consulting deals.

Yeah.

Like we have with some of the other businesses that we've been consulting with recently, you know.

Yeah.

So you know, pros and cons.

Pros and cons.

I mean that's a nuance. But I mean that ties back to saying before that you never want to live your life in a way where you're worried about the phone ringing.

Yeah.

You're just like if the audit comes, I know that that's going to be a headache.

Yeah.

But I'm not going to get in trouble out of it.

No, it's going to.

Cause it's going to cost me a bunch of money to do the. And time.

Yeah.

But everything we try and run everything in a way where it's above board. We try and treat our employees well and pay them well and make sure that like, you know, I think we've talked about it before but like Covid over a lot of businesses but it mainly over shitty ones.

Yeah.

You know, so I apologize if you're one of the ones that have got over. But chances are.

Or very young ones as well.

Yeah, very young ones. But like a lot of the established businesses that went down is because like they just, they were doing things in a way which was legal yet probably not. Right.

Yeah.

You know, just the way you employ people, your tax, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah. Like if you're taking in all cash and having contractors mate like you know, you, you, you, you benefited for that for 10 years.

Yeah.

Like you should have put the money away.

Yeah.

You know, I used to have a client, Potts Point and I just park illegally every time I went there. And of the probably hundreds of times I went there, I got three parking fines. And every time I wasn't not mad at all. I was like, this is.

You won this round.

Yeah.

This is the way it goes. And I thought that of so many businesses that were like jumping up and down complaining there's no government support for me. And it's like, well, you, you didn't pay a lot of the tax that you probably should have.

Yeah.

Like, and this was your opportunity to get it back.

Whereas, like, I pay, you know, I'm getting a seven figure tax bill.

Yeah.

It's like, well, so it's like if something shits the bed and the government is the one shutting me down, then I would expect to get that seven figures back.

Yeah.

Which is, I think, fair.

Yeah.

You know, plus I'm paying payroll tax. Do you know what payroll tax is for?

No.

It pays like the construction industries, like supers.

Really?

Yeah.

That's what it was designed for. So that's, that's the main functionality of payroll tax is to pay the superannuation for industries that don't pay superannuation but should.

Yeah.

So like it's, hey, man, you're doing the right things. So we'll you over and you give us 6% of your payroll and then we'll give it to other people who aren't doing the right things.

So. I don't believe you. The government would never. The government would never take money off of people who are doing the right thing and give it to people who are not. That would never happen.

That's true. I actually, I, I go on, I go on here on record.

How dare you?

Yeah, how dare you?

But I'll have a chat with Andrew Tate about it.

His marketing is genius. Yeah. It's insane.

Every now and then you see him break character and he'll say something, he goes, I don't have to believe.

Yeah.

Like he can't even. But I mean, I feel bad for a little losers that are like, yeah, that's the problem.

Right. And again. But that's the ticking time clock. Because the moment you start marketing to the vulnerable.

Yeah.

Like then, like the time clock is on now. He'll make so much money he'll never have to work again. He will make $100 million in the next six months.

Yeah.

Like, and he'll disappear.

Disappear. He'll, he'll, like, you want to know when, when he disappears. The moment he flogs an nft, do you reckon that is the end of him? Right? Like, Jake, Paul, all those dudes, man, like, they're all flogging NFTs. And like now it's sort of getting illegal. Like, I think one of the guys at Celsius got arrested for insider trading, Right. Because he knew it was happening. I think it was Celsius, which is now bankrupt.

Yeah.

Right. So like that to me is like the final crescendo of this game. Artist.

That's the, that's the last hurrah.

Yeah.

You do like a fucking moonshot nft. And then you fucking rug pull it and you like that's your final, your final thing.

That's your goodbye present to you.

So just over a bunch of 18 year olds who have taken mom and dad's credit card, put it in their crypto wallet.

Yeah.

And are angry because they asked a girl out and she said no. And so now they're inspired by hatred for the rest of their life.

Yeah, man. Like, you know, you know it's, it's really easy to do like, because you can see like I've seen the numbers on biz ops, you know what I mean? And some, listen, some biz ops are legit. They're really good. We do the marketing for a biz op, but it's a super high end biz op only for accredited investors. Like it's 5, it's 500k plus. These people have like significant liquidity, significant assets, the due diligence. It's a six month close. It takes goddamn forever. But they're great deals. And it is a biz op, you know, but that's a very established, very high end bizop, right. Where like it's a very complicated sale because those people have lawyers and you know. You know, but we've also been a part of like lower end biz ops and it's like you see there, you know, and like some of them were good, some of them were not. Like we, the ones that were not, we got rid of as fast as we figured it out. But it's like it just makes marketing easy. Are you fucking unhappy? Yes. Sweet. Do you want me to take the pain away and tell you a skill or give you a thing that'll give you free money? Because.