Effective Sales Strategies and Embracing Niche Focus - CIFC Episode 163
This is a YouTube video titled "Effective Sales Strategies and Embracing Niche Focus - CIFC Episode 163" recorded in July 2023. It features a conversational discussion among Matt Ryder, Cole Gordon, and Jeremy Miner. The participants explore topics related to sales industry dynamics, marketing tactics, social media's impact on business interactions, and personal experiences in sales and dog training industries. The conversation includes reflections on competition, community building, and the challenges of online engagement in professional settings.
Hello.
We did it.
We did it.
It's been a long time.
It has been. I have an interesting topic now. What is it? I wanted to.
We should hear.
It might work.
Oh, yeah.
That's why I think there's context.
Kiss. Ex special Forces sniper turned entrepreneur. I've scaled numerous businesses to eight figures. My name is Matt Ryder. This is my podcast and I'm telling you to put that coffee down.
So instead of being in your purpose built, beautiful recording studio where we control everything, we're here in my dog training facility. There's guys using a grinder outside. I've got a puppy here that I'm doing work with. There's banging and clanging.
Congratulations on the normality of your success.
I'm doing my best.
Yeah.
I'm just trying to. One, one bit at a time.
Yeah.
So what's the topic?
I wanted to actually, because I thought this would work well for you as well. Actually wanted to talk to you about people who use like, not revulsion marketing tactics, but like specifically trying to build a community around shit mouthing competition.
Yeah.
That would be huge in your industry.
It was massive.
Yeah.
There's whole. In dogs, there's whole Facebook groups dedicated to that. Like 30,000 people in the group and they kick out, like, I was in the group.
Yeah, yeah.
And just sort of peripherally aware of it. No, but like, and then the moment that you have any sort of profile, you're out of the group. So they can ship mouth in the group.
Yeah.
Where do you think that comes from?
Pathetic people.
Yeah, yeah.
Interesting. I was, I was looking at it, right? Because like, we are like, usually what happens is like, you know, the biggest will be like the most common target.
Right.
And I was trying to explain to like, Marco because like, you know, If Marco sees 20 people post shit about us or whatever, then it's like, well, we should fuck those people. It's like, well, like, you know, the easiest way to unite people is to give them a common enemy. And the easiest common enemy is the biggest thing in front of you. So, like, you might as well just do that. So for me, like, it actually makes perfect sense and like, I can completely go, oh, that sweet man. Like, I've seen people recently that we have pretty good relationships with. Like, a lot of their content is now like, look how much better I am than this, than these people. Or look how much better my stuff works than these people.
Right.
And then there is a couple of Facebook groups where the moderators of the. Or like their entire business model is predicated on like shit mouthing. Whoever is like quote unquote in power at the time. Specifically in sales. Like it used to be Cole was the one that got shit mouth. Then it sort of transitioned to us. Cause Cole sort of does different stuff. He's not really a pure sales trainer anymore. He's more of like a business coach and recruitment.
Right.
Whereas we're sort of pure sales training. It's super interesting though as to like where those cottage industries come from, how they start and then who does them.
Well, I think it's a bigger conversation around actually like the human condition and tribalism and like people love that shit like in group out group and I mean but you use that as a sales technique sometimes, right? To other. Not like other people but you like you paint the picture of what success looks like for the person that will be the buyer.
Yeah.
And then you other the non buyers because it's such a successful strategy. And so you see it all the time as a business and sales technique is to say like not only am I the best but the others are bad or not even just bad but actually damaging. And if you follow anything they do like it'll, it. You'll ruin. You're like in my case it's like oh, you'll ruin your dog. If you have anything to do with that. Like it's totally.
If you.
Yeah.
If you even watch one of their reels you're.
You're.
Yeah.
Your dog will set on fire.
Yeah. Right.
It's such a weird. I think it's because like for me and this could totally be wrong. The industry that I'm in is incredibly young. There are a lot of very young people and relatively I think like a life inexperienced like haven't gone through particular hardships or. And I think like I see it as like a symptom of youth. Like that's. Or, or like whether it's youth in business or youth in life, whatever it may be. That's what I see it as because like I see it as like a pure like I can't think of a worst thing to do, you know, because like if you are genuinely good at what you do and if you have a following even like mentioning people builds credence.
Yeah.
Like we have built more. We have like I think I single handedly have built more competitors than I could even think of.
Yeah. Yeah.
Half the people like trained people. Yeah, trained people. And then half the people like literally man, like if I haven't one on one sales coach that many people because I don't really like to do it, I. I would say 60% become sales coaches.
Okay.
Like, it's a high number.
Yeah.
Right. And, like, I think more power to, like, I have no problem with it, to be honest. Like, I don't like it when staff, if they, like, steal from us, like, that's one thing that's happened in the past. But, like, whatever. But, like, the strategy I take is, like, if someone, for example, like, if someone is a direct competitor and if they're good and if they're, like, moral and if they do things in a good way, then I'll always say, like, oh, yeah, but they're fine.
Yeah.
If they're, like, nefarious and I don't like the way they operate, I just vacuum them like they don't exist. No oxygen will be given. I remember we were going through a thing a while ago where someone, like, stole clients, stole leads. It was a whole thing. Right. It was a sales rep we had. I had to let them go. Anyway, it became a whole thing. And then one of our sales reps engaged with them and it became a whole thing. And so they were like, oh, we should do this, this and this. And I was like, ah, no, we're just like, just make a vacuum. Because if that's a fire, like, just suck the oxygen out.
Yeah.
And so, like, my line whenever anybody asks me if there's like a group of, say, like eight people, is, oh, sorry. Like, I've just never heard of her. That's always my line.
Yeah.
That I say no matter what.
Yeah.
Because, like, I just think, like, just don't give credence to it.
Yeah.
But also, like, I don't wish those people any ill will because, like, they have kids, they have families. Like.
Yeah.
There's so many people in the world.
Yeah.
I think what's interesting, you can't train them all.
Yeah.
But so for people like you and I see, like in dogs, say, for example, I've only been at this properly for. Since 2008 is when I really got interested in it. I got out of the army in 2015 and then it actually became a job. And so, like, I've been less than 10 years of doing this actually as a job, and social media has been around almost that entire time.
But.
But there's. So there's people now who are professionals, like competitors, I suppose, to me that we can see because of the access to social media, have been at this like two or three years and. And it's the same in your space. Like, Jeremy is an interesting example. There's so many parallels between Jeremy and Bart.
It's.
It's crazy. Right? And. And even yours and mine's associations with them.
Yeah.
But when Jeremy was selling and like actually selling door to door, all the various things he said, there's no social media. There's no industry of, like, sales guys comparing anything beyond conventions and. Yeah, like in person things.
Yeah, yeah.
And at in person things, you can get your head punched in.
Yeah.
So people.
And people are less likely.
Yeah.
People tend to be much more respectful of each other in person because there's real world consequences to real world conversations.
Right.
But online you can kind of say whatever you want. And I think that there's so many people who have never actually, first of all, they're new to it and we can see that. We can see their journey from shit to good. Because you can just scroll back.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You can scroll all the way to the bottom of the feed and find like that they. And that's the other thing that I think is interesting. You see people, when you do scroll to the bottom of the feed and see their page used to be like, you're selling. It's a fitness guy now. And you can see that he used to be a T shirt guy, like on that same account way back and. Because that's what people got to figure out, what's happening as they're. As they go. Exactly.
Right.
Like Instagram used to be. There's heaps of that. But like, the real true people who are. The people you see who are just like, oh, whatever, I don't care, is because they're not paying attention to that social media nonsense because they, when they were learning in their craft and getting good at their craft, there wasn't a social media to be on. So they're just like, who cares what people say on social media? I'm going to keep ticking these goals and making forward success. But in the social media world, that's. You have to be all about battles on social media. And I think the other thing that sort of pisses me off is that a lot. The frenemy thing.
Right. Yeah.
So there are people who, like, I suppose they probably don't like each other, but they know that by having a public and online argument, they're boosting each other's following and we'll do that on purpose. And that is become something of status quo. I've seen quite a lot of that where people are like, oh, no. Like, we're meant to have giant arguments with people. Fuck him. Like, we'll have this Giant argument. But what that. That serves us both great. And we have differing opinions. So our huge public facing argument of shipnailing each other actually helps us both. And that's an odd cultural phenomenon that you and I aren't really aware of.
Well, I think. Well, I think actually we probably were, though, because one of the things about Special Forces is if you're not good at your job, you are hated.
It's an oddly catty environment.
Like, man, that is. Is brutal.
Yeah.
Like, if someone was considered just not good.
Yeah.
No matter how nice of a person, how good of a dad, they were looked at as such a liability.
Yeah.
That it was like, fuck you and everything you are as a human.
Yeah.
We're going to ostracize you and hopefully get you to quit. We won't have a Franken on this conversation about your lack of skill set and how that's potentially dangerous. We'll bully him, just bully you until you quit.
Yeah.
And I see that. Like, and I. I really didn't like that. Like, I got. I got. I got old. As I was in it, I saw it and I was like, oh, yeah, fair enough. But as I, like, I, like, retrospectively, when I got out, I was like, oh, I think that's kind of shitty. And. And then, like, I see it in, like, the sales training. I see it in every industry but the sales training industry. Like, I see that and, like, I look at it and go, like, I don't care how you sell.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't give a fuck.
Yeah.
And like, first of all, to say that my way is ineffective is fucking ridiculous because, like, we just. We're very effective proof by how much money we make.
Right.
But it doesn't mean that your way isn't effective and that I fucking am going to shit mouth you. That's why, like, I don't ever want to do it. And I was thinking. I was in the shower the other day thinking about it because I. All these, like, stories came up and I was thinking, I was like, huh? And I was like, you know, I've never seen do it. The people who are killing it.
Yeah.
And like, that was really, like, the thing. And I was thinking about, like, oh, well, Taylor Welch. I'm actually flying. He ran sales mentor. I'm actually flying to do a podcast with him in August in Nashville. Oh, cool. I messaged him on Instagram. I was like, hey, please, I'm focusing. So I'm flying out there. But I've never seen him do it. I've never seen Cole do it. We've certainly never done it because like, I won't allow it on any level. I've never seen, I've never even seen Cardone or Belfort do it. I've seen them argue, but on a podcast, in person, I'm cool with that. Yeah, yeah, but they've never like shit mouthed each other's methods or say they couldn't sell. Yeah, but what I have seen is a bunch of people that are down here looking up in terms of like status and revenue and business size, just like creating entire businesses based on the shit mouthing of other people. And I was like, I get it. Because that is probably the fastest way to build a community is to just to build it on negativity, hatred, whatever it is. Right? Because like we sign up two and a half thousand people a month. I'm guaranteed to piss off 25 of them. Yeah, 1%.
Right.
I'll guaranteed. So it's 25 people per month, every.
Month that for three enemies that you make.
Right.
So I've made, you know, how many hundreds of thousands of enemies or whatever.
Yeah.
And so like, that's an easy community to scoop up. But like, I just think to what end? Because like, how. I just don't understand, like, where does that go?
Hmm. Yeah.
I struggle with that a little bit. Like, honestly, I know I've said this before, but I think that's your superpower is not giving a fuck what people say about you, especially online in the comments and stuff like that. Like when I was running your Instagram, the. I would like, even though they're not saying shit about me, it's you they say it around. I got the fucking notifications and I like, of this, like I feel my neck twitch. Screenshot, check out this guy. But then I start following down the rabbit hole because I want to know, right? So like I always start like, who are you and why would you say that? Because I think to myself, what kind of pathetic loser would comment that like, like, because I've seen plenty of things come up in my feed that I'm like, whoa. Like, I don't, like, I would not agree with. I think it's nonsense. I think it's.
Yeah, that's about you, Shitty Jeremy. At.
Yeah, I'm wrong.
I screenshot it every now and then and go, this is a good one.
Yeah.
What did it do, Jeremy?
But the amount of times that I would see something come up and I would follow the down the rabbit hole. Right? And it was ads a fair bit.
Yeah.
But they would always be Losers that are trying to achieve what you're. You have achieved every time. Like two to the letter. Every single one of them.
Yeah.
Are people who. When you. They never like. It takes some investigating.
You.
It's never obvious. You gotta. They'll comment from an account, but that's be linked to an account. And you know, you, you follow the bouncing ball. You find that you eventually get to the point like they're a sales trainer or they're a marketing guy.
Yeah.
And they' 42 followers.
And.
And they're posting every day. Just nonsense. And they get zero traction.
Yeah.
And so when you look at it, you go, oh, well, in reality, they're actually just pathetic losers like to. You know, and they're upset and they're, they're lashing out. And, and that's the mechanism by which they could do it. Because if they tried to reach you directly, would you just wouldn't be able to. Yeah, but.
Or worst case, they get in a podcast for them.
But. But actually have a chat. I remember every time I showed you any of those, like, because some of them were pretty rough. Right. And I'd be like, you know this guy. And in instances where you did, you would laugh every time. You'd be like that loser. Okay, Now I. The reason I have to follow that bouncing ball is because I have to talk myself into that now. I get there eventually. I eventually get to the point of like, look at that loser. But I have to make sure they are one I have to go through and find it. Well, like, o. Oh no, someone successful is going after me. What am I going to do?
Right?
Yeah, but as you say, it doesn't happen. Yeah, but like, I'll follow that. And then I have to go, oh, no. This is a person who's, you know, been unsuccessful and is unhappy with their life and probably goes home to their kids that hate them and bashes their wife. And you're like, I just have to make up.
He's created a really dark narrative.
I do have to create.
I have to agree then, mom, you love me, right?
And then I'm like, okay, it's fine. They can say when they need to say, right. Everything's okay. But you don't get that. And, and so I think you become a bit of a magnet for that. Like, I would say that seventh level. And everything becomes a bit of a magnet for that hatred because it doesn't stick. And people get confused by that. I would bet you that people are like, why aren't they biting? What's happening here? Like, why am I not getting the feedback? And, you know, fuck. I'm a professional behavior model modifier.
Yeah.
Behaviors that go unreinforced go extinct, and that's the thing. But the.
The.
The precursor to extinction is an extinction burst. So, yeah, like, it's a very fancy way of saying that, but it has to get worse before it gets better.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you think, well, that's it. When, like, the response to a thing that has been, like, a behavior that's been reinforced in the past that's suddenly unreinforced, the response today is to try harder. You imagine you flick a light switch, turns a light on, right? You flick a light switch and it doesn't turn on. What do you do? You flick the switch three or four times because you're like, the fuck? This always works. And so that's what would happen quite a bit. When you see people come after you online or make stupid comments or say stupid things and you don't fire back, that's when they're like, but that was fun, but was like. Like, I have to double down on this. I have to try this five or six times. And then eventually it goes extinct. When they're like, oh, I'm not getting any traction. This isn't. Yeah, this isn't going the way I imagined it would go. Suddenly I'm like, oh, well, fuck, I guess I'll just stop.
Yeah.
And that's like, my mentality is always like. Because even, like, I won't even send, like, cease and desists, like, to certain. Like, I know certain people are ripping some of our stuff off. Holy spouse. Which we have. But it's like the. The screenshot of the cease and desist would give them more credibility than anything they could do.
Yeah, right.
So I'm like, well, no, like, if we just vacuum this thing and then I talk to all the staff and go like, hey, like, you are not to engage personally professionally under no circumstances like these. These things do not exist in the realm of which we're doing because there's nothing productive that can come from engaging in this foolishness. And it is, like, shocking how fast things just disappear. Disappear.
Yeah.
You know, and like. And it's like, then they can start infighting. So now, like, two of the major guys who I would say probably spread the most amount of, like, negativity towards us are going after each other.
Yeah.
And I didn't know that. I was only told that, like, the other day because, like, I don't follow anything. I don't, like, I Don't look at Facebook. I don't even really look at Instagram. I look at YouTube, but, like, people are fighting on YouTube unless you're in the comments. But, like, I don't read the comments.
Yeah.
So I just watch videos about woodworking, and one day when I retire, I'll start woodworking again.
Yeah.
Yeah. But, yeah, it's super interesting. Like, it's just an. I think because I had that experience in. In the military where I saw, like, I was like, oh, these are, like, some really good guys here that are just being treated terribly.
Yeah.
And I get it. Because, like, that's an extreme example because they are dangerously liable.
Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like, somewhere, like, I won't say anyone's name, but some of the guys that were just, like, great guys, but just horrific.
Yeah.
You know, like, they just slipped through the cracks.
Yeah.
And you're like, oh, man. But, like, they're great dudes.
Yeah.
Really, really nice. But you just hate them because you don't want to go overseas with them because they'll get you killed.
Yeah.
But having that come into, like, something as silly as sales, Like, I mean, it's just silly.
Yeah.
Like, we just teach people how to say things that hopefully get the money.
Yeah.
That's as far as it goes. And so, like, to not, like, someone or to, like, put it out there that they are some way doing damage or a bad person or shit or fucking idiots and all this kind of stuff because you say different things on a sales call is so fucking outrageously stupid. Like, I. Again, this is a little bit hearsay, but, like, these two people who are fighting at each other, like, I did see some of it, and it was like, basically this guy. There's a prospect had a sales call with guy A and Guy B. And then the guy went with guy B. And so guy A sent the prospect all these abusive messages saying, like, you're a fucking idiot. You're ruining your sales career. These guys are fucking morons. They have no idea what they're talking about.
Right.
And then obviously, the guy who bought sent it to Guy B because he's like, well, have a look. So then he set up, you know, obviously, like, looking for the fight. You know, I would have gone, like, I got the win. I have the money.
Right.
Like, I win. That's enough for me. But anyway, try and build it out. And then from there, they're just going back and forth and, like, literally, like, these are two people. I think I know at least one of them has kids. I Think both of them do potentially. But like they're like adult grown men.
Yeah.
Arguing over, like how you say things.
Yeah.
Not even like it's just how you say stuff.
But do you think that indicates the value of each individual sale for them?
Like, that's a good point.
Like, I hadn't thought of it that way.
Yeah.
To like. Because you guys sign up two and a half thousand people a month. If it's 2499, it doesn't make a difference.
You know?
And you know what? I hadn't thought of it that way.
Yeah. Yeah.
So that could be it. Right. Of like. No, I needed that.
Like, I don't even know how many sales we do.
Yeah.
Like I get a report or if it's like we made. So we do about two and a half thousand total sales and about a good chunk of them are info products. Slow. And then we do anywhere from. Fuck. I think it's like we do about 20 coaching sales a day. Like coaching sales. So 20 a day. So seven days a week. 140, 750. So about 600amonth. Roughly. Like five to 600amonth of coaching. Like so 3, 2.0 and above. But like I only get told when it's a good day.
Right.
Like they'll go, oh, we did 28 today. That's pretty good. Right. Like, I don't get. I don't look at the sales. Like that's not my job.
Yeah.
Like, I run the strategy.
Yeah.
And I run.
Run all the background. Really boring. That nobody wants to. Compliance and legal.
Yeah. Right.
So I don't even know. Someone goes like, oh, what's the sales process? I was like, oh, fuck, I don't know anymore. I don't know if we do triages. I don't know if we're just going straight to sale that someone else. I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck.
Right.
And also, like, if we have a good day, great. If we have a bad day, that's fine. Tomorrow, probably a good day.
Yeah.
Like, I don't know the people who buy.
Yeah.
I hope they do really well.
I think that. I think that's probably a big piece of it then. Right. Because if an individual person decided to go with another if these two guys that you're talking about, I have no idea who they are, but these two guys, if, if, if you add you into the mix of that and now there's three and someone's trying to choose between three products instead of two and they go with One of the others, you wouldn't even be aware that they weren't with the other.
No.
Like you'd just be like, oh, we didn't close that sale. Like that would just go into the like.
And we close it 35%.
Pretty consistently.
So like there's 65 of people saying no.
Yeah.
And you're not following up. Who the did you go with? Like, you hate your wife?
What are you.
When the call ends? The call ends.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And like, you know, we have our follow up processes and we have all that. We're actually bringing in a complete lost revenue department because this is actually interesting. We, we have more calls than we can handle. But it's to the point where it's actually become kind of a problem. And we figured out that we were trying to bang our heads. How do we get the sales guy to do referrals and follow ups? Then we've actually figured out it's actually detrimental. So for our business right now, if our guys are doing all their own follow ups, all their own referrals, all their own upsells, resells and renewals, all that kind of stuff, like, we actually lose a significant amount of money.
How come? Just because they should be doing something now?
No, because like, so basically we can only book out four to five days in advance, otherwise the no show rate goes to like 70%. So our calendars are. So we have 21 sales reps full time.
Right.
And then we have SDRs as well. But those are the closers because there are so many people hitting the booking page that if every hour is not available, they bounce off. And then that increases the cost that we pay per call.
Right, right.
So if someone goes on holiday, our calls go up by about 30 bucks a call, which is significant. We're booking thousands of calls.
Yeah.
So what we realize is that. Oh shit. We actually can't afford to have our sales reps ask for referrals.
That's wild.
It's a really odd, like it's so different than any other problem we've had. It took us a while to figure it out.
Yeah.
Okay. So what we've done is we've created, we're creating a complete lost. A complete. So that we're now dividing the sales team and then your power sales department into front end and back end. So the front end will only handle new inquiries. Then they'll be handed over to a completely different team, which is like essentially like the profit team. That's the renewals, the upsells, the, the cross sells the fucking, the follow ups from no sales, the referrals, all that kind of shit. So there'll be an entire department for that.
Yeah. Right.
And then they'll just do all that.
And so that's something that came in at scale. Right, like you.
Oh yeah. Like I mean, I've never even heard of someone having that problem.
Yeah.
Like I don't know. And like we could lower ad spend but it doesn't actually benefit us because like we have, we don't spend as much as most anyway to make say 3 million bucks we have to spend about 4 to 500,000amonth, which is a lot of money, don't get me wrong. But a lot of our competitors who would be or somewhat competitors at similar levels are spending double.
Yeah. Okay.
You know, so like making as much.
Or making say similar. Like you know, like I would say Coal is definitely a competitor of ours. We have very different business models but we're still like competitors in that space.
Yeah.
And I think he spends a lot more on ads than what we do. But he also has a much higher end back end subscription.
Right.
So. But in like the business coaching product, which we don't have, we don't really have anything that's super expensive. We have like 18K. That's about it.
Right.
We don't have the 35,000 and he has that. Yeah.
So he has like the business side of the business coaching side of it. So like they use like their, and I could be wrong, but they use their like sales coaching as a way to get recruits in because as part of their business coaching package they offer recruitment. So like. But they're getting these guys in and charging them for sales training.
Right.
A lot of it's like biz op. So it's like, hey, you sick of working a 9 to 5? You want to come in my 10k a month, whatever from your living room.
Right.
Stop being a truck driver. Teach them how to sell, place them in a business. Right. So they kind of got. So they had to spend a lot of money on that side.
Yeah, yeah.
But like it's sort of a lot less money on this side. But that's like where all the long term money is. So anyway, but like we don't spend a ton on advertising compared to a lot. We also like have a lot of insight because of sales sniper into how much money businesses spend to get certain revenues like coaching businesses and we're down the bottom. Like we haven't even spent enough on Facebook yet to have a rep.
Right.
Okay. And yet that Conversion is.
Yeah, because we don't need to.
Yeah.
Like we're 3 million bucks away from being able to apply for a rep.
Right? Yeah.
You have to spend 10 million on Facebook before you can apply for a.
Rep. 10 million total.
Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Okay.
So, yeah. Or if you like spend I think over a million a month, they'll talk to you.
Right.
But we're nowhere near it.
Yeah, no need.
There's just no need. Because if we did, I mean, fuck, we need 60 sales reps. Hey, here's.
A question for you on all ears. So this is certainly the case in my industry, or I think it to be the case in my industry, but I could be wrong. And I wonder if it is in sales as well. Is that the way that social media has changed, has caused a lot of infighting, but especially newer people. So Facebook groups used to be groups of like minded people who'd go to a place to have a conversation and you used to have real conversations, right?
Yeah.
So there would be like. Of balanced dog trainers. There would be a group of balanced dog trainers in there and there'd be the odd pitch for a seminar or, you know, a new piece of equipment comes out and people say, hey, this is in here or whatever. But for the most part, it really was a four year information page managed.
By more of the town square.
Yeah.
Yeah.
People would have arguments, but they would usually remain fairly civil. Of course they would divulge into madness sometimes, but for the most part, people would actually have conversations that reached the conclusion. And now what I see is Facebook's kind of dying. I starting to think that Facebook might go away.
I will be bought. Yeah, they're bringing out. What are they bringing out? Thread as a. Oh, it's the Twitter rip off.
But like the problem is like they put so much money different conversation. But they put so much money into the fucking metaverse. That is a clear failure.
Yeah.
And Paul Zuckerberg's been trying to get his stupid Oculus fucking thing going and he's just been blown out of the water. Like, they're like, look, we're on Gen 3 and it's starting to be kind of okay.
Yeah.
And Apple's like, here's our Gen1 product. Yeah, here's our Gen1 product. And it's fucking incredible. Like, it's classic Apple. They're always late, but by the time they come in, it's way better.
Yeah.
Anyway, I think Facebook's in trouble. But anyway, that's a different conversation. But now especially younger people, they're not On Facebook.
Right.
Like, they're, you know, we got the demographics, man.
Yeah.
Instagram's crushing. Now Facebook owns Instagram.
Yeah.
Instagram is crushing.
But so in the dog space, TikTok has gone wild.
Right?
I mean, TikTok's the biggest.
Yeah, yeah.
But there's no conversations in TikTok because. And Instagram's the same. Like, if someone. Like, because I tried to have a conversation with someone in the comments on Instagram recently, and you can't. The UI is terrible. You can't do it. And TikTok's the same. And so what people end up doing is it's like you take a shot off the bow in a video, and then I take a shot off the bow in a video. And that's the only way that conversations can happen.
Right.
But the problem with those sorts of conversations is they're happening publicly in front of our clients and customers. Whereas what would happen in an industry closed group? We could have a real conversation, and if I saw your point of view, I could concede defeat. And people used to do that. People be like, all right, now you've convinced me. I'm on your side now. Thank you for this conversation.
Yeah.
Because it would only be your peers that would see that conversation. Whereas now if those conversations are happening in short form video, and they're back and forth, and you see people replying to comments in that kind of way, your pride's on the line. And also your credibility to your customers, clients, and all your followers. And that's why I see people just doubling down on nonsense.
I think it's like the dilemma of the, like, the black belt who owns the studio should probably never fight in front of his own students.
Yeah.
Like, that's just a bad idea.
Well, mixed feelings on that.
Unless you're a savage.
Yeah.
Well, that's the thing. But you should be.
Yeah, yeah. If that's your job and that's the thing. Like, that's why I've always tried to take, like, my thought process. I remember when I was, like, trying to figure out, like, how am I gonna be known and how do I set this thing up? I was like, oh, I'll just do everything no one else is willing to do.
Yeah.
And that's why I was like, I'll sell life.
Yeah.
I will. Objection. Handle life.
Yeah.
I realized it. The boldest thing I think I've done in business was when we had like 4, 000 people in a master class. And I said, I'll go away. You guys nominate someone to be the prospect decide what objections you want him to give me, and I'll handle it. And, dude, they threw the kitchen sink at it. And it was like. I remember walking back into the room going, like, I may have made a very tactical mistake here, but then I just kind of got into it and I saw it, and, like, that was like, oh, dude knows what he's talking about.
Yeah, he.
Like, he can do it.
Yeah.
That's why I've released, like, live sales calls. Like, yeah, it was like, I'll just do, like, here is everything. I. I'm not bad at this. You guys can pick.
Yeah.
And, yeah, that's the proof is in the pudding.
Yeah.
You got to hit the field. That's why, like, in my industry, like, I'm not the world champion, but I compete and I show. Like, hey, this is how I go. Like, this is how. This is. This is. This is how I do it. This is the results. I'm not winning the world championship, but I'm all right. Like, you can see it.
And I tell people, like, when I train them, because I've stopped developing in sales. Like, if anything, I'm getting worse.
Yeah. Yeah, Right.
I think my ability to articulate what I'm doing is much better, but my ability to do more lateral stuff in real time is probably worse.
Yeah, we go deeper and stop spreading.
Yeah. Yeah.
So. Because, like, there's. There's. There's now no benefit to me getting any better. Yeah, I know that. Like, I know enough about sales to be. I'm good. Jeremy is constantly developing because, like, he's the product guy, so he has to keep adding and taking from things and figuring stuff out. But I, like, I tell people, like, when I coach them, I'm like, I. Like, I'm not going to talk about stuff that I can't teach you in. And we actually have a. I was speaking with one of the coaches, and they were giving cold calling advice. They were asking me. I was like, you've never cold call. Like, yeah. And I was like, no, dude, you got to learn. There is nothing wrong as a coach with going, that's not my wheelhouse. Because we have guys whose wheelhouse that is.
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, you don't have to pretend to be good at everything.
Yeah.
And that's like. That's the beauty of, like, why we built, like, our coaching the way that we did was like, someone goes like, hey, when I'm door knocking this, I go, well, timeout. I've never done that. I'm definitely not the guy to ask I will give you the insight that I can give you from like the sales knowledge that I have. But that's like, I'm not the guy. Go to Joe, his Godo session tomorrow. Guy makes 150 grand a month door knocking. Probably the guy to ask. Yeah, but if you want my answer, like, I'll give it to you. Just know that it's probably. And they go, oh, okay, like that makes sense. I appreciate that. And I think if you can do that.
Yeah.
Like for your clients and then just create an environment where there's ton. That's where like I don't get like how a lot of these sales coaches, like, I don't get how they do it because like I've always had the luxury of going just. I don't know, man. That's Jeremy, right? Jeremy's cold called. He's door knocked. He's done inbound, he's done outbound, he's done B2B, B2C, enterprise level sales, one on one sales coaching, like debt relief services for large companies and like everything in between. So, like he's done it successfully.
Yeah.
He's 46.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know how. You're a 25 year old. Like, what have you solved? Yeah, I haven't done shit at 20.
Well, a lot of it's fake. You reminded me. This friend of mine, Jack, is big name in dogs, but he actually was one of the first ever, like black belts in America. I shouldn't say that, but he's a very old.
Show me him.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was an early cage fighter. Pre ufc, right?
Yeah.
And he was one of the first jiu jitsu black belts. And how he even got into jiu jitsu is super interesting. He had his own gym, like, was teaching all kinds of karate and all things that he's into. And then got put to sleep in front of his own students by a jujitsu guy. I was like, something, like, something's not right here. Like, like, let's go again. Like, I don't know what happened there.
Yeah, yeah.
And the guy just kept him on the edge of consciousness because, like, he's not that he doesn't tap.
He blackout.
You tap out.
Yeah.
100, right?
I agree with that.
This guy just kept him on the edge of consciousness in front of you and students for a long time. And then Jay's like, what? Like, what magic is that? He was, oh, it's Brazilian Jiu jitsu. He's like, okay. And shut his own gym, like, looks at all his own students and goes, we're done here.
I don't know.
This guy just beat me. We're done. But then, so when he was one of the early black girls, his job was to do all those challenge fights, right? Because when Jiu Jitsu was new and people, like, all the fake karate nonsense was really at its. Yeah, Jiu Jitsu came in and was like, no, we can really you up, right? And, and we'll. And we'll take you on right now because we probably won't even need to hurt you, right?
Yeah.
Like, you can do it gently.
You just go to sleep and then we'll realize that I beat you.
Yeah. Yeah.
So he had to do all these challenge fights and they had this guy in his gym. Now I'm butchering his story. He tells, he's told on a couple of different podcasts, but it's fucking incredible where this guy like, does some like, haha, I would have broken your leg. And he's like, no, no, we're really fighting. Like, you have to actually break my leg.
Yeah, stop.
Right?
And then the guy does one of the moves and like, gets a, like, flick in Jay's ey. And he goes, that's it. I would have gouged your eye out. I could have taken your eye. And he's like, for starters, you couldn't have. But even if you could have, do you think the fight ends when my eye comes out? And the guy's like, yeah, you, like, you're dead. Like, you lose your eye. It like, cracks it. And he goes in front of all these other guys. He's like, sweet. Lock the fucking door. Locks the door, hands the guy a spoon, he goes, these two guys are going to hold me down and you're going to gouge my fucking eye out with a spoon. But that door's locked.
And let's see.
And now we're having a real fight, right?
Because if you think I wouldn't be like, all right.
But yeah, he's like, he's like, no, no, I didn't take it. And he's like, no, if you think the fight ends just because you flicked me in the eye, even if you take my eye out, I'm going to show you. So these guys are going to hold me down, you're going to gouge my eye out, and then we're going to fight.
And can you imagine, though, if he met someone, the equal level of crap.
You can get up and say, okay.
And then he starts to go, I don't do it.
Yeah, dude, he would have done it without, smiled without, and then told the story the rest of without a shadow of a doubt. Yeah, yeah, he would have done it. He would have been like, here we go, we're going out, right?
Yeah.
But it's that. It's that being prepared to actually do a live and put it on show and fail and be like, oh, fuck, you did. You are better than me did.
Yeah.
Hey, you got a good.
You know why? I realized.
Hey, buddy, this is realized.
No one's paid me attention for a while.
It's been 40 minutes. What am I doing?
I actually realized when it was okay to, like, I realized that, well, sorry. I stopped being scared of doing that when I realized you can do everything perfectly and still not make the sale. Like, so whether the outcome is a sale or not is not actually a reflection of how good you are because there are just some people that you just can't buy. Brian Tracy, I was listening, watching a really old. Brian Tracy is like an old sales guru. Very, very good. Really, really switched on dude. And I was watching an old sales training from him that we have in our archives because him and Jeremy did a masterclass years ago, way before I knew Jeremy. And Brian Tracy was like, you cannot, like, determine the outcome. All you can do is all the activities. But, like, you can't set sales goals because, like, you can't control that. All you can do is control the activities. And so, like, I realized that a few years ago and I was like, as soon as I figured that out, I was like, oh, well, there's nothing I can say or do that will actually make the person do anything. So all I can do is, like, if I do these things, it's like, more than likely that they decide to go, but, like, whenever. So, like, and I remember when I was, like, starting sales sniper, every single call I did was recorded. And so I would give the guys calls that didn't buy. Like, oh, the guy didn't buy. I was like, yeah, yeah. But, like, that was a perfect call. If I do that, then it's a sale. Five times out of 10. But, like, five times out of 10 if I do it perfectly. So if you don't do it perfectly, it's four. And then you go down, it's three. And then you go down, it's two. And then you go down, it's one. But if I do it even I can't do it more perfectly. And it's not going to be a six, it's going to be a five.
Yeah, yeah.
So, like, let's Be happy.
Yeah.
And someone was like, if for some.
Reason it is 6 out of 10 this week, it's 4 out of 10.
It's just luck.
Yeah.
You know, every now and then, someone's just watched enough content to be like, whatever you throw at me, I'm down.
You know?
And that's why you do podcasts, like, to get the lay down.
I was buying. I just wanted to go through this process.
Like, I've had people that, like, have, like, literally done our training, and, like, they just, like, wanted coaching from me. I was like, but you sort of done it all. They're like, yeah, I just want to hear from you. I was like, this is. Man, if you're going to pay me 30,000 bucks to just hear me tell you the same shit again, I'll take your money.
Right. Right.
But fuck you. Like, whatever, you know? But yeah, it's. As soon as. As soon as I realized that, like, everything became so much easier because. And also, like, the funny thing was, like, people were like, how do you. How do you, like, handle the rejection of sales? I'm like, well, if your closing rate is 30%, that's pretty good. Like, that's a solid closing rate. And you're shocked when seven out of ten people say, no, I got. That seems really stupid, like, being shocked at the inevitability. Like, you. If you got angry, if you got.
Bit by a dog, this will probably just nail me so badly. Just so badly. Like, sustained bite on the arm and.
Because you're dealing. Dealing with a mission to Malley, Right?
Yeah.
You're dealing with a puppy dog, and that dog is brave to bite people.
Yeah.
If you were upset of the fact that a dog bit you, you're in the wrong game.
I just laughed. It was very happy that the camera was rolling. And I'm gonna make a reel out of it later tonight, and it's gonna.
Get a billion views. Is your most viewed one still the one of that.
My dog doing nothing.
Yeah.
Sitting there.
I got a new camera. That camera dog sitting there doing nothing. And I just zoomed in on him and then got a video of him upside down and zoomed out of that and a couple of hundred thousand views. Jazz had one of the two dogs. She's done it with the two shepherds prior. That didn't get that much traction. And she just had one with the two dogs standing in the van, and they both just look like that and then jump out. Right. But it's to the sound of, like, the. Is this guy running from. Oh, wait, he's running from us and then they. They chase after him. 1.4 million views.
Wow.
Got a 10,000 new followers overtook me and followers from this one.
Real Jesus, man.
Yeah, yeah.
Anyway, well, makes you wonder, man. I reckon people fight because it brings traction and also they're extremely insecure in and of themselves.
Yeah.
And you know, I hope they do good.
Yeah, good for them.
There's tons of people to sell.
Yeah.
That I think, you know, more of.
The story is, guys, I just.
I don't care.
I just like, I. I wish everyone the best and I hope that if we get a chance to meet like a clickfunnels, I would just tell you, like, there is literally nothing anyone can say to me that will make me care and.
Fair enough. You know, our next topic should be don't be the best, be the only.
That's. That's a.
Interesting thing that I've been trying to push for recently, not having competitors.
You. Yeah.
Why try? Why try and be the best in your field if you can be the only in your field?
Yeah. I mean, niche yourself down so much, right. That you get the world shape.
I only do podcasts and puppy Malinois causing problems in the background. It will be the most successful podcast of podcasts with Puppy Malinois fighting in the background.
It's like winning the super bowl being the world champions. You're the only country that plays it, bro.
It was called the World Series. The baseball was called the World Series.
Yeah, but it's only American ticks.
No, but it was named after newspaper called the World. Oh, yeah. That's how it came to be.
Yeah, we should do that.
Yeah.
Start our own publication. World Champion Official one. Yes, the world recognized by official World champions Dot com.
All right, that's it. Copies the closers kind of in the dog training facility. If you like us doing these, let us know. We haven't actually done one in ages. What have you been releasing? Old stuff.
I did a couple of walking talks. Did a couple of like, just like me raining to a camera like Bill Burr style.
Yeah.
Like, you know, where it grinds my gears. Just like angrily talking about things.
I love it.
Yeah, we should do that.
Yeah, we need to do the one wheel one like we plan to. We could just do it back and forth.
I think we should do it in a nice part around it.
Oh, yeah. Okay.
Well, mine arrives. Mine got on the boat today, so it's on its way over.
Yeah, I'll like get one on those ones off Amazon. They just fill with water.
Oh, yeah.
Just.
I've got one of those.
We'll just sit in next to each other.
I've got one of those.
I don't.
And just see who gives up first.
Without a doubt.
Thirteen minutes. You're a seasoned professional.
I am.
I do it every day.
Danger.
All right, Host.
Au revoir.
Right.
Where'S the library? Put that coffee down.
