Experienced sales guy asks 8-figure biz owner about the secrets to go from good to great

Hey, guys. So this video is an interview, kind of a Q and A style between me and a guy called Cameron. He's a super experienced sales guy. He's kind of been in our ecosystem for a while and he is a very successful closer in his own right. Plus he's worked with a bunch of larger companies like traffic and funnels and stuff like that. So super interesting. I want you guys to stay all the way through the end, like, subscribe, hit notification, but all that kind of good stuff. There's a ton of really, really insightful questions here. All right, guys, see you soon.

Bye.

So what beliefs do you think that a top rep has before you even go into the call?

Right.

What kind of beliefs do you think that a top salesperson has compared to, say, your average salesperson? So are there any, like, specific beliefs around, like, whether people's ability to be resourceful or people's ability to afford things or, you know, something around, like, how much time it takes to generate trust? Like, what kind of beliefs do you think maybe are different between the best salespeople and maybe even just like the second best or the average?

I think super interesting. Like, I think there's a couple of pieces to that. The first is like, if you're surrounded by people who are really, really good, it makes it way easier to be good.

Yep.

Like, the formula.

Yeah.

Was hard to break in. Chicks were doing it as warm ups.

Yeah.

High school girls are just smashing that out.

Right.

You know, so it's like, it's that. It's that kind of sweat of like, oh, that's what's. That's what's possible. That's. That's a huge part of it.

Yeah.

I think the other one is as well. It's like you big believer. Like, you are the objection that you give.

Okay. Right.

So, like, if you're the guy who just goes out there, goes for, Backs himself, trusts themselves, and like, you're willing to do what it takes to get the results that you want. I think that, like, that emulates throughout your entire sales process. And the confidence and conviction that you present anything with is just tenfold.

Okay, right.

So like one of the biggest differences is like the guys who are on missions. You take Bill, for example. Like, Bill's on a mission.

Yep.

Shock. Like, you don't close your prospect, Bill will close.

Right, right. Got it.

And I have nothing against that. Like, okay, sweet. That's. That guy's on a mission, he's going to go out there and do that. So it's like that, that Element of perseverance and like, go get itness, I think is super essential.

So why do you think that's so important to somebody in the sales call?

I just think it's the conviction that you come off with because, like, people are buying you.

Okay.

As a buyer. What do you mean by that? Because, you know, obviously that, you know, people might, like, I would say an average. It would say they're buying the product.

Right. And they're not.

They're buying the offer or the product or maybe how they communicate the product, not the person themselves. So, like, how do you mean by that?

Well, I think it's. If you look at the counter argument, how many times have you not bought something because you hated the sales guy?

Sure. So is there that. If they were terrible, I would agree with you totally, 100%. If they're just really personable, they're good.

Right.

You never knew how good they were and you just bought the product.

So that's definitely happened. Yeah, for sure.

Right, Exactly. So, like, a really good salesperson doesn't feel like you're talking to a salesperson.

So then how does that.

Because the kiss of death is, wow, you're really good at sales.

Yeah.

No one's ever bored from you. You said that. Right. So it's like the person who's interacting with you, presenting, and they're like diving deep and asking you question. Super interested.

Yeah.

You don't feel like you're being sold for sure. And those guys are like, selling you, but you don't even feel it. So it's like they, like, they're taking you through a process. And like, they're confident because like, like when you're about to put your wallet out, like, any waiver of confidence or any. Any scent of, like, that person isn't sure about what they're doing, what they're selling, or like that immediately causes you to go.

So there's like that moment where it's starting to get to the point where someone's about to kind of go, okay, let's do this.

Yeah.

And there's like a sub. You think there's like a subtle thing with a person's presence or something about the actual salesperson is going to be there at that moment, whether it comes out in their voice or comes out and they're pausing or something like that.

Exactly. One of the funny thing is, is, like, when you're a salesperson, nothing should ever be a problem.

Okay.

Ever.

Right.

It's like, I don't have my credit card. No worries, man. We can take bank account. Do you have your mobile banking on you? No, I don't. Okay, cool, man. Like, we have Venmo. That's really fine.

Yeah, that.

All right. Cool, man. We can do PayPal if you want to do that. Like, it's never a problem. I used to take deposits from people and take payments, right. Using their bank account details. I had no way of taking that money.

Okay.

Zero. But I knew I needed the commitment. And if I added in an administrative.

Bitcoin, so they would give you their bank account details, even though you can't do anything with that.

And then I would call them back two hours later, catch up with them. Hey, bro. How's it going? Hey, man. Did you manage to get your card sorted? And I'm just wondering. Yeah, sweet. Hey, like, I. Actually, there was something wrong with our system, so I couldn't run the payment details. Do you mind if I grab that card number now?

Got it.

Not a problem. Boom. Sound made, right? So it's like, I don't want to. Like, I need to have the confidence to be able to just kind of roll with those situations, think on my feet, and then just go, all right, cool. Like, the most important thing here is that I get the commitment because I don't want that buyer's remorse. I don't want that weirdness.

Yeah.

And like, that, like, the fact that my system isn't working and they don't have a credit card or I don't have a solution for them that's going to seep into, like, oh, I wonder if they don't have a solution for this.

So you. To link that back to the personality of the person behind it.

Right?

So you used example of Bill, like, where there's perseverance, like that sort of additional kind of character, right? So why would someone like, let's say. Why would that element of perseverance in that case close somebody that someone else wasn't able to, assuming they have kind of the same process.

I think, like, conviction comes out in your voice and like, the X factor, right. Like, if you take this is very Australian colloquial. There's a chicky 1x factor called Damien.

Okay? Right.

Phenomenal singer. When you watch her perform, it is boring as batshit, Right? Like so.

Yeah.

But you hear on the radio, it's phenomenal, right?

Okay.

Like, she's got a great voice. It's that difference between, like, I went and saw Eric Clapton live was terrible.

Okay.

It was like watching. It was like listening to an Air Captain cd, Right. It was just Boring. And the guys before them were like all over it. And there was like an X factor about the performance. You know what I mean? I bought into the performance.

Sure.

So I think like when you're selling, there needs to be that element of like, you're so sure in yourself that everything you say is delivered in a manner where the person can like almost borrow your conviction.

So how do you differentiate that from somebody who is attached in the sale? So like someone has that total conviction. They're certain they want to, you know, almost not push the sale over the line. But at the same time there's a level of perseverance there. So there's got to be some kind of delicate balance. Like if you're saying that someone. There's a certainty that's coming there, but somehow that's transferring but without it being kind of aggressive or pushing.

Well, I don't think you can be really confident if you're, if you're not attached to the sale. Like it's like.

You mean if you are attached to the sale?

Yes, you are attached to the sale. It's like if you're going after a girl, it doesn't matter how good looking or what you say. If there's a needy vibe, it's like, oh, why do you need me?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean? So being detached from the sale is a key element, which is very tough. It's sort of like when you're young being told that like, oh, you'll get it when you're older.

Yep.

Right. Super frustrating thing to do when you're in that stage where you need the money from the sale.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. So in that instance, you have to fake it. Like you have to, you have to really try and pull back.

And how do you. What are you doing internally through like language.

Right. So you have to make sure that like you keep your language neutral, that you can center your voice so that your voice sounds the same and that you don't get flustered because like the thing that's going to kill the sale is like, if you get flustered in. Objection. Handling.

Sure.

You start to have a. There's a creep of like combatants coming in.

Yep.

This game.

So do you think that if somebody has that, you know, so if you're talking about kind of like your average rep or even maybe slightly above.

Right.

If you look at the people who are extremely good at anything and they have that certainty, that's usually quite hard one.

Right.

Like they've had to go through some adversity or like they've had to back themselves and follow through on certain things. Right. So how would you suggest that people are. Maybe that somebody is. Because that doesn't seem like something you can fight.

No, but you can, you can, you can force people.

What does that mean?

Like, we have. I have a boot camp.

Yeah.

I put people through where they either break or they come out the other side.

Okay.

So we call it Will Hanks in Jail. The one Will Hinks in jail. Will is one of our top guys. Great sales guy, one of our head managers. He's a 9 Tour MARSOC, which is Marine special operations man. And we just make you fucking cold call to your fingers bleed.

Okay, Got it.

Right.

So it's like, so how does that translate to somebody's certainty? Is that just their sense of once they've done that and they're in sales, they believe that because they've gone through that they can handle pretty much anything else in sales after.

Yeah.

I think a lot of the problem is that a lot of salespeople these days are a bunch of little whiny bitches that think.

The fine little whiny bitches, well, they.

Should just be like, give me some warm leads, please, dad. Like, they don't think of themselves as a business.

Sure.

It's like, I run a business. I want to have a sales channel, a marketing channel, delivery channel. I want to have some redundancy.

Sure, right.

So like, when I was commission sales repping, I was like, okay, first things first. I'm going to go, what's my goal income? Let's say it's 20,000amonth, just for arbitrary sake. And I'm like, okay, I make $1,000 a sale. And to make 20 sales a month. Sure, okay. In order to make 20 sales a month, I need to have 40 sales calls shop. In order to have 40 sales calls show up, how many to book I need to book? Let's say it's 80 or 60 or whatever. Right, like, okay, cool. To book 60 sales calls. Like, how many historically has this account been able to book me?

Right.

They've been able to book me 40. Okay. There is a gap of 20.

Yeah.

Where are you going to get them from?

Yeah, exactly. So, and I go, okay, what happens? Like, how many marketing strategies does the account that I have have? Let's say they have only Facebook. I like, oh, yeah, that's not good for me because I'm a business. I'm a commissioner. I'm a business. So I would go, okay, like, first of all, I would not Take on an account that only had one marketing strategy.

Sure.

That's a bit of a no go for me. So it's like, okay, you have no redundancy built in. I can't work with you.

Yeah.

I don't care how good you're doing at the moment. Zuckerberg goes, 100%. Your business is fucked. Yeah, right? So I go, okay, multiple. Okay, okay, so but let's say I'm a sales guy and I want the account. How do I create my own strategies?

So the belief that you're talking about there when you're thinking about someone who's a better rep is someone that they're thinking like themselves as a business owner, not a salesperson.

And well, they. They look at problems and they go, okay, these are my problems to solve. So, like, I have regular meetings with like all my top reps and even my non top reps as well. And I'm like, okay, what's your plan? Yeah, I ask them, I go, what happens if the Internet breaks? And they go, fuck. I go, okay, well, next time we meet, you will have a plan if the Internet breaks.

Okay, Right?

And they go, okay, yeah. And that's what my mentors do to me. Okay, so like, what's your plan for this? What's your plan for this? I'm like, fuck, those are like black swan events. They go, yeah, yeah, but they might happen, right? So have a plan for it.

Got it.

And then start to put in infrastructure. And then it's like, if you're constantly thinking about, like, how to have plans for those, then like, all of a sudden you're like, okay, well listen, we have a lead list of X amount of old clients. We have X amount of current clients. I have all these old leads. I have all these like, ebook leads that like, aren't booking in. You know what I mean? I'm like, okay, co. So I can start to get a dialysis together. I can have an Excel spreadsheet that I download into my computer on a regular basis. I don't need the Internet for that. But I have a phone. Sweet as. Like, I can just cold call the living bejesus out of these people.

Got it. So you're essentially having someone who's a top rep is essentially reverse engineering the result as opposed to just like, let's see if we can wing this and hope for the best space.

Exactly. And that is like, differential is like, those people are like, okay. Because I tell them, like, if you come to me asking for more money, like, I will slap you.

Yep.

Super hard. If you coming to me asking me to help you figure out ways to make more money.

Yeah.

I'll like war game that with you all day.

Yeah.

You know, it's like getting more per commission is not your answer.

Yeah.

Because when you get more per sale, all you're doing is taking away from the ability of the business to spend more money on marketing, which is ultimately restricting the amount of lead flow that you have.

So in the situation where somebody isn't in a position where they do have multiple sources of leads, because that is a possibility, you would just essentially try to find a better account.

Find a better account also, then go, okay, well, what are the. What are the pools of influence that I can pull from?

Sure.

Can I create my own LinkedIn?

Yeah.

Right. And start messaging people, which I've done on behalf of the company. I have to get permission to do it. But I'm like, okay, can I, can I do my thing? What are the lead lists that I can dial on a regular basis and put aside two to three hours a week to start to implement pipeline, essentially. Right. And then it's like, can I get permission or am I willing to ask for forgiveness for reaching out to all the current clients and putting in a referral strategy? And if they're a big machine where they have a lot of stuff like that, you can create a lot of very, very lucrative pipelines.

Yep.

So it's like, okay, like that's. You know what I mean? And then kind of. But you got to work that into your diary and kind of be able to manage that and stuff like that, which is not easy and it can be very overwhelming.

Yeah.

Because a lot of salespeople overdevelop themselves to the point where, like, they don't have any room to take sales.

Well, I guess, yeah.

You.

If you've got eight hours a day of sales calls, it's gonna be pretty difficult to do other stuff. But that's. So what you're saying though is that that's another belief that is the higher performing reps essentially is saying, okay, well, this is the situation, but that's what I'm gonna have to do. So therefore I go and do it.

Yeah.

So again, it comes back to reverse engineering what you need to do and making sure there's a clear plan in place.

Yeah. And like, you can do things for short periods of time. You can have short term. Like, like, I was like, okay, I want to make $100,000 in a month.

Right.

I was like, I really want to do that as a Commission I sales.

Right.

Like, I've never done that. It'll be a good hook for me.

Right.

So my competitors have never made more than 30.

40.

Sure, sure.

Okay. I was like, what do I need to do to do that?

Yeah.

And I was working for seventh level and one other place and I was like, okay, cool. I need to start working 3am okay.

Got it.

So I was like, because I was in Western Australia.

Yeah.

At all US time zones. I also didn't have any active marketing at the time, so I had to do all of my own setting, everything. So I was like, okay, what. What product do I need to sell to get the highest, like, but it's not what's the most expensive of product. It's what gets me the best bang for buck commission for that month.

Sure.

Right.

So it's like if you're selling a $30,000 product at 2500amonth.

Yeah.

You're only getting sell the 10K.

Yeah. Right.

Like, because you can get pissed for that.

Right.

Sell the 10k.

Right, right.

Bang, bang, bang, bang. Short sales cycle.

Yep.

I used to train a lot of a large Amazon guy who also has a pretty big YouTube presence. I used to train a lot of his stuff. And they have a 25k, they have a 5k, a 10k and like 160k.

Right.

And the comms worked out to where if you sold to 10k, you'd probably make the best bang for buck.

Sure.

It was like, okay, you don't sell anything but 10.

Right. Right.

And they made a ton more money.

Right.

Ended up getting fired because that guy hated that.

Got it.

But they made a ton of money.

Sure. Volatility.

But, you know, that's what I was here to do is teach them how to make more cash.

So. Okay, so the beliefs are really that, like, there was a really important piece, like around the congruence. Like, again, we'll kind of look back to Bill, like, by having that reverse engineering, by having that conviction that's really only. So I want to touch on the conviction again. So, like, because it seems like that's a critical piece. So, like, as you're reverse engineering these results and you're going into those conversations, but you're trying to have the most amount of conviction in those conversations is all of that stuff that you're doing with the rooster, that's got to be supporting that level of conviction when you're on the call.

Right.

But there's a side piece where you have to know your numbers because that helps you not get frustrated. And down yourself.

That helps you with a non attachment basically.

Right. So like if I know that I'm a 30% closer. Right. Then like I can be super confident closing three out of 10 people. Because that's my number.

Yeah.

And if I close 2 out of 10, it's like, oh, that's too bad. Talk about 4 out of 10. I'm super happy.

Right.

But if I think I'm a 6 out of 10 closer.

Yeah.

But I'm actually a 3 out of 10. I'm in a constant state of upset.

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Because people don't track their numbers.

Sure.

Like for me I was like, sweet. When I sell inner circle for seventh level, I close it over 90%.

Right.

Like no one gets out of that.

Cool. Right, Right.

So I was like, sweet. Like I know I can close it 90.

Yeah.

So like. But I also know that 90 is still not 100.

Sure.

So if I get three no's in a row.

Yeah.

I'm not worried.

Yeah.

Close at 90%. I'll just close the next 15.

Sure.

Right.

Like it's going to work out.

So that's something that you have once you have that congruence or that. Sorry. That certainty really about your, your skill set.

Right.

And when you think about macro cycles versus.

Yeah.

Like the amount of sound bad, like ridiculous business owners that work, that make changes on microcycles, it is retarded.

Right.

Like they're like, oh my God, we didn't make as many sales this week as we did last week. It's like, yeah, it's a week, bro.

Yeah.

There's 52 of them in a year.

Yeah.

Like, you know, there's plenty of time. Let's just wait a little bit, see what happens. It could be the glitch, could be this, could be this, you know, I mean, so it's like, let's get some more data points. So like I think like making data driven decisions just makes everything easier.

Sure.

If you're a sales guy, like understand your numbers, be realistic with where you're at. You know what I mean? Be happy with where you're at. Because like I have taken tens of thousands of sales calls.

Sure.

And I used to fucking suck at it.

Sure.

And then I got progressively less shitty.

Sure. You know those foundations though.

Right.

Like once someone gets that foundation in place, that kind of reverse engineering piece you talked about.

The, the.

That's something that you learn to do in order to keep your income in a good place. Obviously.

Right.

That coming up with a plan for the contingent scenarios. Something that you also learned to do so that you didn't have those events happen, obviously.

Right.

Something that you learned over time, presumably.

Yeah, well it came from paying for my own leads, from running my businesses.

Right.

So you already kind of had that.

Mentality like this seems like a bad move. I also like, I'm a worst case scenario guy. Like I have the water at my house, I have canned foods.

Right.

You know, I only just moved back to cities I don't have yet. But I usually have weapons and all kind of stuff.

Right.

So it's like I'm gonna take care of myself in case something happens.

Sure.

You know, cars always full of petrol, stuff like that.

Right, right. Just protect the downside kind of guy. Right. So yeah, there's like a. That's translated into the way that you handle yourselves by thinking in advance of all the contingencies that you would need to have to make sure that you're protected if that happens. Basically.

Exactly. And then you can be super aggressive.

Find super aggressive.

Like if you're looking at like business, it's like if you know that, Right. You genuinely have like thought of most of the angles and you have contingency plans and you plan for a few of them. Like, sure, what's the risk in going for it?

Yeah.

The worst case scenario is almost never as bad as what you could possibly think it would be.

For sure. Got it.

So yeah, let's just fucking go for it.

So it really allows you to feel then, even on a call probably more certain because you know that, okay, this call doesn't matter in the scheme of the big picture as far as. So therefore it's like I can just be, just fully here, be completely on the call, be completely congruent.

Yeah.

And that's perfect. Like that call doesn't matter.

Yeah.

That particular one call doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

Right.

So therefore. And that's what you're trying to create essentially.

Yeah.

That clear headedness of like no single call actually matters in the scheme of the big picture. Because I will hit the goal regardless. Because I've already planned that out.

Yeah. And like I'm realistic. My number. Some people come to me going on like 50k a month. It's like. Yeah, but you're like a, you're a 20% guy.

Right.

You can't happen.

Yeah.

Unless you find an account that's willing to pay $5,000 a sale, which you want.

So forget about it.

Yeah.

Just forget about like. So change your goal. Like ye. You know, Jordan Peterson. It's like make. Clean your room. So you start. People set too big a goals.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? You got to start with, like, these smaller goals. Have your big goal, but realize it's years away.

Yeah.

You know, and then go, okay, well, let's start with something small, and I can commit to actually taking enough action to be able to get it. I'll see the result, and I'll see the incremental changes.

Yeah.

Clean your room then, you know, clean the upstairs and clean the downstairs and mow your lawn.

Yeah.

Like, then now your house is clean.

So it's just that incremental piece there. So for someone that's gotten, like, you know, if you start to look at those beliefs developing as somebody gets better, obviously there's things that happen with somebody's process. But it sounds like that, you know, one of those beliefs that certainty that's coming from. I guess I'm really curious about how that. Again, coming back to the conviction that you talked about.

Right.

Because everyone talks about how important conviction actually is on a call. Like, that sort of examples really stood out to me from what you've.

You said. Right.

So, like, use Bill as example as he will close someone because he's on a mission. So I guess I'm, like, really curious about, like, if there's another way to kind of explain how that works. Like, why does that level of conviction work?

Because it's clearly true. Right. So, like, the cool thing about being in sales is that, like, you never have to lie to anybody. Right. So you can be the guy that tells people the truth.

Okay.

And as long as it's delivered in a tactful way where, like, it's contextual and it makes sense that you can tell people quite difficult things.

Right.

And if there's, like, it will come across if one, like, you're not attached to the sale. Because if you're attached to the sale, it will come off as you're saying this to get the sale.

Yeah. Right.

So but if you. If you. If you really like. Okay, like, I believe in the product. It's a big thing. It's very difficult to sell something you don't believe in.

Yeah. Right.

And like, I've, like, you shouldn't though, anyway, because it'll destroy you because then you're internally completely out of sync with yourself. Your moral compass will get bent and you'll be broken.

Exactly.

So you just can't do that.

Yeah.

And we've had a counselor.

If you're a good person, if you're a psycho sociopath is a different story. But if you're a good person, you will bend yourself out of shape so quickly because you'll know that you're lying to people for your own gain, and that's going to destroy you morally.

Exactly. Like, we've had accounts where we've had to, like, stop.

Yeah.

Like, we realized. So we're like, you know, 100,000amonth revenue from this one client.

Yeah.

We got to sit down the sales guys and go, hey, guys, we got to make a choice here.

Yeah.

And everyone's like, no, we get. Right.

Yeah.

And everyone makes the choice. You're like, sweet diaries off.

Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah, I just think conviction makes every. Like, if you know the product's good, if you live and breathe it. So, like, if you really believe that, like, okay, like, if you do this, it will work. And if you take the action that you. If you take the action required in your life to get the results that you want.

Yeah.

Then the way in which you can talk to somebody is just different.

Different.

It's ethereal. It's like X Factor, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, it's.

Well, I would say it's leadership.

Right.

So, yeah, if you're going to. If Donald Trump would be a great example.

Right.

Like, he could just speak with such insane levels of certainty, and he could literally say the most bizarre stuff, and people would just be like, yeah, 100 agree with you. Even though, like, if you actually said back what they said without the tone or anything, you'd be like, that person's crazy. But then, like, because of the certainty in the delivery, people like, oh, follow you wherever you want to go.

Exactly.

So there's a level of conviction that just comes in the. In the vocals or in the sub.

Communication, even, like, if you look at, like, you know, classic dictators, like, sure. You know, like, who was it? I think it was like Mussolini where he's like, blood is the. Blood is the world that moves history. What is it sounds like blood alone moves. That kind of stuff, you know, all that kind of crazy they said.

Right.

But they said it so fucking emphatically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like, they had so much conviction about. Because they believe it. Like, even though it could be batshit fucking lunacy. Yeah, they believe it.

Yeah.

And so they pull other people in so that they. Most people.

Okay, so then that's the. In that situation.

Right.

It's their belief, their emotion right behind it, and they're like, delivery that pulls that conviction. And so how does that play out on a sales conversation where too Much of that kind of emotion essentially almost comes across like you are trying to get somebody to, to close versus like.

Yeah.

The pullback versus if you pull back so far and you're analytical and detached completely, then there's no transference of any emotion and it's kind of dies.

Right.

Well I think there's gonna be some kind of.

You want the person to get their outcome. So like you're fighting for the person, not against the person. And that's a good way of thinking at it. And then like all of your, your, your like it's, it's kind of like there's a crescendo of like emotion throughout a sales call.

Yeah.

And it's like in my sales calls like I'm very just. I'm stone faced for probably 60% of it.

Yeah. Right.

But that's just because I'm kind of like just listening.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? So I'm listening and kind of trying to analyze this. It's like playing chess.

Sure.

Like you're just kind of watching the moves happen.

Okay.

This and this. I'm just maintaining some neutrality.

Right.

Because like I don't know that what we do will help us.

Them. Yeah.

So I don't know. So I'm just like okay, yeah, what's going on? And then I'll take them through the process, ask the questions. But it's all like pretty stone faced until we start talking about things that like can become emotive.

Yeah.

So emotion in the sales conversation. So detach through that like investigative kind of process because your belief system is saying I don't know if we can help them.

Right.

So that's actually an important belief.

Like yeah.

Genuinely that's the belief is like I don't know if we can help you.

Yeah.

So let's me try to understand and figure that out.

Right.

Yeah. Like, like what if you come to me personally for cold calling.

Yeah.

Be like that's not my thing.

Right.

Like I know how to do it. I know the principles.

Sure.

Done a bit of it. But it's like that would be like specific Jeremy. So like I'm not going to sell you into me.

Yeah.

You know that wouldn't make sense because like whatever. Money's great for sure. I can't do it. So like I want to make sure that we can solve the problem. So through an NDPQ terminology connection situation problem awareness. It's relatively blase. It's sort of like yeah, yeah, whatever. Because like problems are never important enough for people to do anything about.

Them. Right, right.

So it's like, if it was important enough, you've already done it.

Sure.

You know, like, so. But it's the solution that we start to kind of, like, unravel what's really going on. And that's kind of where, like, an element of vulnerability is required.

So to find solution awareness. And tell me what you mean by the vulnerability.

So solution awareness is the part of the sale where we want to figure out what they want.

Yeah.

Like, when the problem is solved, what happens? Right. And we're looking for a tangible and an emotional outcome. So, like, when you achieve X, I get Y. What would Y. If you were able to get Y, what would that mean to you?

Right, right, right.

Because, like, people need a motivation to run towards and away.

Got it.

Right. So, like, the sort of. The tangible is like the running towards, the emotional is the running away.

Okay.

What does that mean? The emotional is running away. So if you say, you know, I want to have my. I'd get my house and, you know, the family could be safe, whatever.

Yeah.

What that do for you? I'd feel like a great, you know, father or a great leader or something like that.

Yeah.

The provider and all that kind of stuff. Right.

So when you say the running away from, what does that mean? Like, they're running away from not feeling like that.

If you never get a chance to be a true provider for your family, what would that.

Okay.

How would that make you feel? So it's like there's that juxtaposition, but you really have to sort of envision out the future in order to build a gap big enough to where they have to start running.

Okay.

So that's sort of a. We could go quite deep into that. So I'm going to maybe loop back around to that. So that the emotion in the pitching side of it, that perseverance, that certainty, that congruence or that conviction. Sorry. So using a miscellaneous thing before, right. Where he's high on the, you know, all the dictators, high on the emotion.

Right.

Even out of help, that comes to mind. Right. Same thing. Like, very intense, lot of emotion. But then you're seeing. When you're like. That's more in that closing the sale phase there. When you're communicating, for example, like a pitch to somebody.

Yeah.

You're not being that much. That intention.

It's not carrots, it's not charismatic.

Right.

It's just there's an intention behind what you see.

Say. Got it. Okay.

Like, I'm going like, I'm serious and I'm Like, I'm going to say things like, it's just like, you can tell if someone's got like what I'll do when I train guys is I'll get them. Like if someone's got kind of like a very, like a meek way about themselves, like, I'll get them to. You have to stand when you sell, right. You have to puff your chest up.

So you're getting them to do that.

Why?

Because they need, like, they lack. They lack a certain presence about them which is going to give someone inherent confidence in them. It's like, so if you, if you. People are scared, right? Like, generally speaking. So when they're buying, there's an element of fear.

Yeah.

Because they're parting with their hard earned money. Money has a tremendous perceived value.

Absolutely.

Way more than what it actually is.

Well, I think that perceived value is obviously relative to how what somebody's ability to earn that money is.

Right.

So like, if somebody isn't that confident and we're choosing between one of 20 things and if they. They're actually saying no to 19 other things to say yes to this one thing.

Right.

It's actually very easy to say yes to almost anything if you're always confident. You can refill the bucket 100.

Of course it is.

It's like I have like Jeremy, when I sort of finished with Jeremy's training and he knew that I'd sort of figured it out, he goes, congratulations, you never have to worry about money ever again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because he was like.

I was like.

He's like, well, mate, like, you can just. You just fucking make it.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, he's like, you never, like, doesn't matter where you go now. Yeah, you'll be the best. And I was like, okay. He's just like, you can just dump all your money into crypto and then fucking. You lose it and go, oh, well.

I'll just make warnings.

I'll just make it back.

Sure.

You know, so that's like an element of. There's a freeing aspect. 100 you can just fucking go for.

Yeah.

I mean, of course I was speaking.

To Ryan Tuckwood who owns Swish the other day, and he had like a fucking meltdown over this. Like, you know, when Covid and all that kind of stuff happened and. And his like, friend was like, what would be the worst case scenario?

Right?

And basically he'd be six months behind where he is now if everything collapsed, because he'd have the ability just to rebuild it.

Yeah.

You know, like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's a fan.

You make a few calls, got great clients, and wow, we got some more business. Great.

Let's go. Yeah, yeah.

You know, like, if sales never collapsed.

Yeah.

I just go and sell for someone, make a ton of money.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, like, it'd be fine.

Yeah.

So. Yeah. So, like, when you have that confidence.

So that emotion, though, that at the end of the call, how does that relate to that?

So if. So, picture walking through, like you and your girlfriend or whatever walking through a haunted house.

Right? Okay.

Like, you walk through it confidently, okay. Knowing that it's just a fucking haunted house.

Yeah.

And she hides behind you with her head in your back.

Okay. Right.

Because she wants to be protected by the big, strong man.

Okay.

Now that's not a sexism thing. That's just like. That's a. It's a very, very clear example that people during times of fear want to be led by someone who is comfortable leading.

Got it. So then that's an interesting point, because for somebody to be that certain, right. They have to be certain. Like, that's got to be kind of congruent. They have to really be certain.

Right.

Because there's different gradients of certainty.

Right.

Like, I can be fairly certain tomorrow is going to be raining or sunny.

Right.

Or I can be completely certain that Santa Claus is.

There's not.

There's no kids watching this. Not coming. This. This winter.

But all you really have to know in your head is that you're certain that tomorrow will come.

Right.

Like, so you don't have to, like, be so specific about it.

So you don't see there being, like, a massive variance between, like, someone who's, like, radically certain this will. 100%.

No, you can. But I just think that they're just making it more complicated. It has to be. It's like the program's good person can benefit. Get them in.

Got it. Right.

Like, get them in. It's the best thing for them.

Yeah.

They might fight tooth and nail not to do it, but I used to sell fitness. I've seen enough fat people tell me all the reasons why they can't go to the gym and eat healthy and then just get fatter and fatter and fatter. And I'm like, oh, well, that was my fault.

Yeah.

Because I didn't figure out how to get them out of their own way. Because there's no reasonable expectation for that person who's lived their life in that way to make the right decision.

Sure.

So I fundamentally believe if you're in a shitty situation, that it's because you make poor decisions.

Yeah. Right.

And so if I'm bad at something it's because I make like I make poor decisions around that part of my life. Like I used to be poor, I made really shitty money decisions. Now that I can make money, like I'm learning better decision making processes around money. But if I had the same decision making process I have now, I never would have been as bad off as I was. I would have made better decisions. Right, right. So it's like now there's a ladder and everybody starts on a different run because some people are near the top when they're born.

Right.

But like you still gotta climb the ladder but essentially like if you're overweight, hate to break it to you, it's because you make poor decisions. Health and training exercise, same with.

They could take that any area of anyone's life.

Right.

To make poor decisions.

Exactly. So like there is no reason why they should make the right choice. The right choice is to start.

So that's an interesting belief. So right there, that's a key belief difference in my opinion.

Right.

So like that, that frame that you're using is the sense that if somebody has a area of their life that's not working, it's because your belief is they're making bad decisions, which is self evident.

Right.

Because the results are bad. So therefore the decision making is bad and has been over a long enough period of time to get in there, barring some crazy accident.

Right.

It's a different story. But in general that's the rule. And then so your belief with this person that's in front of you is they're not making, they don't know how to make the right decisions otherwise they'd already be making the right decisions.

Exactly.

So that's going to give you an extra level of intensity when you, when it comes to I need to make sure that this person does make the right decision because if I don't probably they're not going to.

Yeah.

Jeremy describes it as just stay in status quo.

Right.

So it's going to stay in status quo all the time. There's no, like they're never going to change. And I've seen that so many times in life and you can just see it like it's not until they actively make, they actively decide to have a different decision making process that they will start getting different outcomes.

Yeah.

And so like I know like when I'm on a call and I know when, when I can tell the difference in logistical objection that I have to work with them on just a fear based one that's all around the decisions. And if it's a fear based, like I will not let them off the phone. Well, not that I want to rock the phone but like I will fight for them for as long as I have available.

Yeah.

You know, I have calls that I've released that were two hours long and I pitched it 20 minutes and that's an hour and 40 of objection handling.

Right.

But the guy, you know, had a shift at the end of it. Did the program paid for it was successful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, and so it's like, because you just know, you're like, oh, he's just making bad decisions. Like it's.

Yeah, like.

But there's no reason for him to make a good decision.

Sure.

So I have to get him to convince himself to take the leap to be able to make the decision.

Yeah.

You know, that's the same in everything. Whether it's buying a car, buying. So like all these things, like they're just decisions that have to be made and if someone makes poor ones, then sure. What reasonable expectations should we have on them to just all of a sudden have a fucking come to Jesus moment.

Yeah.

You know, like, oh, you know what? I will be fit now. And that's why, like oh, coming back in 24 hours. Hours.

No, because that's where they're just not, they're already not making decisions a certain way. This is a window of a moment where they may make a different decision if they've got the right set of circumstances created. And if they don't have those circumstances created, that's what that sales call is for, is to create that set of circumstances where they may just make a different decision. That's the, you know, the.

And you can't make them.

Yeah, that's the thing.

Because like especially in like a remote selling environment, like you know the days of like in person hard selling. Yeah, you sort of could because you can make them sign contracts, do that kind of stuff. Like I don't do that nor do I recommend doing that because buyers remorse and pull out all kinds of stuff like this just makes no sense.

Right.

But like sticking with the person and being able to talk them through their concerns I think is a really powerful trait to be able to have. And then like the thing is about it, like, like why you have to be very tactful at it on the phone is because they're just one red button away from being lost in the ether forever.

Right.

Like you can't just get frustrated.

Yeah.

You know, be like, what the piece of. You know.

Yeah.

Like, you can't hard sell people on the phone. It just doesn't work because they can just hang up. Or they're incredibly weak and valuable, in which case, like, you're just bullying them to buying anyway. But they will refund the moment that they're by themselves 100%. Because they can just send an email, which is basically anonymous.

Yeah.

And just go, I'm out. Block done.

100%.

Yeah.

Like.

Or my head.

My card's been cancelled. So see you later.

Which is the most aggressive thing. Imagine all the rigor, canceling your card, just literally one doll.

Yeah.

I couldn't be bothered.

Yeah.

People will do it, though.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, for sure.