High Ticket Sales Training

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Hey, guys. What's up? Matt here. Another episode of Coffees for Closers today. And we are. You listen and review.

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All right, Sales.

Hit me with it.

Sales is what gathers us here today. Okay. So I was actually just doing some content around for a new portal that we're shooting.

Okay.

Around, like, when to engage the sales process and when to not. And. And how there's, like, a handover of sales and marketing.

Okay.

And so I think it's good to, like, first of all, understand that sales and marketing are. Are like, they're a team. They have to be working with each other and talking about sales process and scripting and the initial parts without referencing marketing is kind of silly. So a lot of the time they're siloed and marketers are talking about getting leads, and that's great. And then sales guys are talking about making sales, which is great. But there is, like, this real big handover period, which is rarely talked about, which is, I think, what separates successful sales and marketing teams over ones that are less successful.

Okay.

And those things are usually done by separate people, right? Like, it's a separate agency. You have the marketing agency and the sales agency working for the one employer and often don't have a direct line to each other. Do they often. Is it more often than not that they go through the. The actual client to talk to each other, or do they usually have a direct line?

Most of the time they'll have, like. If we work in that capacity, we try to have, like, a weekly. We call it marketing meeting. Sales and marketing meeting. They're rarely open to it. Perfectly honest. So all the time, we just end up giving our feedback to the business owner or whoever it is or, like, liaison there is, which does create problems because it's very difficult for us to give constructive feedback and vice versa. And one of the problems that we find as well is that the marketing companies are not super capable a lot of the time of accurately, unemotionally assessing their lead generation because they don't have the ability to, like, listen to sales calls. So, like, we're talking to Marco, and we have a. We have lots of clients. We do the sales and the marketing for. They are our most successful clients. And there's one in particular where we're like, yeah, hey, we have a Ton of leads. And Marco's like, oh, they're good leads. You know, standard marketing guy, right? And then he listened to the sales call and he's like, oh, those aren't good leads. So he goes back to the drawing board and he's like, okay, where am I putting these people into the sales process? Too early. So there are essentially five stages that a person needs to go through in order to be fit to buy something. And these are like copywriting or marketing stages. First is they're unaware. So they're unaware there's a problem, solution, anything, Right. So they're just like Johnny out there. So your first goal in marketing is to get them from unaware to problem aware. So they are aware that there is a problem. Like you're looking to transition out of your 9 to 5 and into an online business. Or. Or you're looking to get better at sales, or you're looking to get into a sales career. You're looking to whatever, right? There is a problem. And so now it's like, oh, there's a. There is a problem that I have. I've identified that then from the when, from problem awareness. The next stage is solution awareness. So there is a solution.

Let me just unpack that a little bit. So it's the role of the marketer to inform the potential client that they have a problem.

Yeah, okay.

That's like, I'm sending this out to the world. And your initial stage is always, let's get them from unaware to problem aware. Now that they're problem aware, I can start a conversation with them.

And so if you somehow get someone through your marketing and onto a sales call and they're not even problem aware, that's a disaster. Sales call, right. It's like, hey, what are we doing here?

Yeah, it just ends up wasting time and people's diary space. And also, like, there's very little chance that they buy.

But for the marketer, he ticks the box and says, you lead. But yeah, that's. That's one for me. My pros column, which.

Which is like, if someone's just running book a call straight from cold traffic. You know what I mean? And like, because they have a pretty way of doing it and maybe there's references to certain things, like, you know, it just guess it's just a. It's a. It's a name, phone number, email, and a body. That's about it. That's as far as it goes. And that's. That becomes problematic, especially when you start to spend lots of money.

Okay.

So that's critical. They have to make them problem aware. But yet they still sometimes do end up on a sales call without even being problem aware.

Yeah. Which is a problem for the sales team.

Yeah.

But not for the marketer.

No, no, not at all. No. In, in most cases, because they don't. They're not really. Usually for businesses over eight figures. Most businesses take everything in house.

Okay, right.

So that, and that's like they, they've run agency models. Then from there what they do is they've like reverse engineered it and then they bring in in house. Like for example, like at Sales Sniper, we don't have any exterior agencies doing anything. We have one, but they're basically interior being Valor Media. Right. But in the start we had like an Instagram guy and we had a. This guy and this guy and this guy and this guy. This guy. Because the agency model is a way to get good people. You might pay a little bit more, but like you don't have to outlay all the time, effort and energy of building it internally. But once you get to a certain point, it makes no sense to have many external factors unless they're superb. Like we work with some companies that are doing more than eight figures and it's like, but we're providing such good value that they don't care that we're more expensive than having an internal sales team.

Okay, right, got it.

So then once they go from problem aware, then your next thing is to get them solution aware. Like, oh, like you're looking to get rid of your 9 to 5 and the solution is an Amazon business. Oh, sweet. There's a solution to my woes.

Yep.

You know what I mean? And then from there, once they become solution aware, then you're trying to create them to be product aware. So it's like, oh, okay, so there's a, there's a solution out there which can get me rid of my 9 to 5 and that's transitioning into having my own Amazon business. And XYZ company provides that. Like they're like, there is a product, There is a done for you product which, which has that. And the next stage is brand aware.

Okay.

Right. So and when they go all the way through, you get someone who's gone through the stages onto a sales call. It's a really good lead.

Okay.

And it's not the fact that like a lot of people think good leads just be with money. You can have people with money who have no idea what the fuck they're doing there.

Yeah.

And that's not really that Productive. But if you have people who have some level of qualification because money is like title, you know, sometimes you have a ton of it, sometimes you have none of it, depending on what's going on in the market or whatever or how you've invested your money. So like I don't think money is a great qualifier because like that's like are they ready to buy today? But they can be a great fit. But it might take them three months to get the cash together. It's still a really good lead.

Okay.

You know, is that ever like a qualifier to get someone on a call? Do you ever say is part of the, you know, like the book a call sequence, you have a spare 30k line around? Do you ever ask that? Do you ever.

Depends on the offer. Okay, so if you, if you think of like a cross, right, which sort of like four quadrants, if you've got like the top quadrants would be like high lead volume. The bottom quadrant would be low lead volume. The left quadrants like would sort of be like, like low availability. So like you don't have much sales bandwidth. Like your team is small or you know what I mean? And then you have high bandwidth which would be like a large team where the like you're like under 50% capacity booking. Right. So you got 400 spots a week, you filled 200 of them. That's the sliding scale that you would use to dictate how you would play that out. Like, because we, we've had accounts before where if they didn't have 50k liquid there's zero point them doing it.

Okay.

Right. So it doesn't mean that we don't talk to that person, but it means that they would go into a process that would probably identify that for sure through talking to a person in like a triage or 15 minute call or even they just get put onto a list and then we outbound them. We can identify that their problem or a solution aware they want to do it, they need three months to gather liquidity. So then we put them into a follow up process for that time. Would I send those people straight to a sales call? Probably not, if lead volume was good and the availability was sort of somewhat limited. But I would dial that back if our availability was wide open.

Okay.

And I would just flood the sales team with as many opportunities as possible to then farm that person long term. Because I'd rather speak to someone like if, if I've got 10 spots a day, I want like at least eight of them full.

Yeah.

Even if four of them are people who have no intention of buying for the next three months.

Okay.

Because I've then created like what else am I doing? My time.

Yeah, yeah.

Like you're a sales guy. Like what else are you going to do?

Yeah.

Is that typical that most people feel that way or.

No? No.

Okay. No.

So most people don't make any money though.

Okay. So that is a critical step that most people don't do is that you will get people on the phone knowing that they're probably not going to be a sale. Knowing that that's going to wreck your stats. If you give a fuck about that.

Yeah.

Because they then go into your like follow up system. Maybe they can give you a referral that they can give you something. It's worth your time.

Yeah. And it's long term. I've created a relationship with the person and then like in three months time or six months time they buy something and that like over time, if you plan on staying on an account for a while, like if it's got legs over six to 12 months, like you just create an ecosystem around yourself where you're really successful.

Okay.

You just got five or six sales a week coming in without really having to do that much.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just, you know, people coming through. So which sort of brings us into the sales process itself. Um, which is kind of like what I highlighted where you've got people kind of going to different areas based off what they're doing. But it's all based on like these ratios of like lead volume and lead availability. You know, if you've got tons of availability, like there's just no point pushing people out. You know, like opportunity is opportunity. Like even if it's. I would rather have a 1% chance of closing someone than a 0% chance of closing nobody.

Sure.

Or 100% chance of closing nobody.

So an unproductive phone call is better than sitting there twiddling your thumbs?

For sure.

Yeah.

And I don't difficult to see an argument against that because you can, as long as you understand what you're doing, you can just slide the metrics up and down as you want. Like we had one account where we was tremendous. Like thousands and thousands of book calls a week. It was Great. We had 22 full time sales guys in there. And what we would do is we would like we had a qualification form with like a set of conditional logics in it. So it's if this and that, if this, then that. And so we would send them to different areas. We would send them to an outbound list and to a triage call. Send them straight to a sales call, depending on how they answered certain questions. If they're like, I'm aware of the business. I know about Amazon. I've researched it. I have $100,000 in the bank. Oh, well, you don't need to speak to anyone with a sales guy. Like, you just go through. But if you don't tick some of those boxes, then what I'll do is I'll send them to different places where I can then have a human take over that process and then dictate where they go next.

Okay.

But I could ratchet that up and down depending on how many, how much is coming in. So, like when that started to slow down, we just removed some of the barriers.

Yeah, but you said that you and everybody here is coached to do it, that you will fill your diary even with people you think are unlikely to buy.

Yeah.

Because you have the time and that that's not common. And that you also said that it's hard to find an argument against it. So what is the argument? Is it an ego thing or. It's just that people feel like it's a waste of their time. They're, they're, they're probably part time salespeople that only want to get on the calls with, you know, what is the reason?

I don't really, I don't really know in particular. I think a lot of it is that like a lot of salespeople are like, I think it's just there. Don't waste my time.

Okay.

I think that's most of it.

Ego.

Yeah. From what I've heard from feedback from salespeople and like we just fired a guy specifically for this one. He wasn't closing that well and he was stealing leads. But the second is this is like the feedback we got from everybody. As soon as somebody wasn't ready to buy on the phone call, he would just fucking yell at the person who booked it.

Right.

It's just like, well, that's just stupid.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it doesn't make any sense. And so I think a lot of people, they get, especially with the, the terminology of the industry, being inbound, closer and all that kind of stuff, the terminology is moved away from like sales professional into you just take inbound. So inbound is like someone filling your diary with qualified leads, which is just. And in 12 months, I don't think that'll be a thing. Like the way that all the social medias are going and stuff like that. Cold calling is Coming back.

Yeah.

Vengeance.

Yeah.

And so I think that all the inbound closure stuff, it's just not going to fly anymore and everyone's going to have outbound. They have to have outbound teams full time in order to fill diaries.

Yeah.

Is there a destructive nature to measuring that close rate like that? You know, because I hear people here talking about, oh my close rate this or they not necessarily about themselves. More often than not, when I hear people there when they're championing someone, they'll talk about their incredibly high close rate, like as a percentage. And the best way to get that.

Is to unleash anyone.

Yeah. Right. So is that a metric that gets in the way of success?

There is and it depends on. I guess I don't use it as a success metric. If it's very low, it's a red flag. But then there's so many circumstances that can cause that. And then if you're flooding the diaries intentionally with less than, less qualified leads, then usually what we'll have is a conversation with the business owner saying, hey, listen, just so you know, there's low opportunity. We're going to stack everyone. So our close rate is going to be abysmal. But like more sales. Yeah, Everyone happy with more sales. The problem is when people start really measuring that very intently and it's like, are you measuring the one call close? Are you measuring the total? Because I had weeks where I had like 400 close rates because, like. But I had weeks where I had 0% close rates and it would kind of all even out because I wouldn't sell anybody on a one on the one call close say. But they would come follow up. But they don't book in sales calls to follow up. So I had 13 sales and four sales calls.

So explain to me how you're getting 400 close rate. You're then closing outbounds as well. That don't.

Well, it's just people who had a sales call on this week, but they bought a month later.

Okay.

So like I had 10 sales calls booked in but made 30 sales.

Okay. Right. I'm with you.

You know, so now it's like, hey, look at me. Like I'm.

I thought that was one of those. 60% of the time. It works every time.

Yeah, yeah. Sales panther. So I don't think close rate is a super good metric, but it is something that you can follow. Also depends on how they're tracking it. A lot of the industry that we're in, the coaching consulting, they do it on offers made, which is adorable. Statistic. So it's like I closed 60% of the people in which I offered the product to. So it's like, I remember we had this guy, he's supposed to be a killer of all things. He came in, he's fucking terrible. But I was like, hey, did you close at like 4%? I was like, this is, this is a problem. Like I get it. Like, I know the offer, but we should be around 30. Like, that's a good. He's like, no, I'm closing at 60. I was like, where is that coming from? And he's like, oh, this. And then it was like, I would listen to the calls. Anyone who gave him an objection, hey man, I don't think this is right for you. I don't feel like you're in a good headspace. I don't think we should do this.

Yeah.

And it's like, oh, really? So that didn't count as an offer.

Okay, so when someone tells me they close. Right. That's interesting. But like, yeah, I'm not super interested.

Yeah.

And then you want to look at it over a long period and then you want to look at it from like. Because your, your lead generation mechanism will play a huge role in what the, even the, the potential close rate could be. Like. If we're selling a biz op Amazon offer and we're closing at 30% but we're doing triage, I'm pretty happy with that. If we're closing at 10% and it's straight to sales goal. Fucking high fiving. Like that's a great. Because industry standards like four.

Okay.

You know, but if you're doing like a coaching, like if the guys drop below 50% of seventh level, I'm like, what is happening? Okay, These are fucking lay downs, boys.

And why is that? Because the marketing is so good. Because people are so qualified and the product is so good.

There's so much content and we have intense nurture sequences and you're basically only speaking to retargeted people.

Okay.

So like they've either bought something or gone through stuff like free portals. They've bought something like a low end product. We don't really speak to anyone who's just like cold traffic. Book a call. There you go. Like, so if we were, I would expect much lower close rates, you know. And then there are times where like what I want to be able to do is like delineate between the lead traffic because like Instagram is going to be a lower quality. It just is.

Yeah.

Because they're like, they're being nurtured through the content. But it's like, it's just different than a Facebook group. Whereas a Facebook group, like, I would want to be closing, you know, over 50% Instagram, I'll be happy with like over 30.

Okay.

You know, the slo funnel guys, the guys who do the self liquidity office, they buy something and then as part of it, they get two calls. On that second call, we're pitching them something. I would expect an enormous close rate from that.

Yeah.

Okay. So that's kind of a lay down there.

Yeah. So all those different things so we can look at it. And then if we segment that out, which we do through Hiros, which is like our like lead attribution software, then we should be able to go like, well, okay, like, what's the close rate? Well, let me take out Instagram and then go, oh, it's pretty good.

Okay.

Put extra. You know what I mean? And then also, like, people who are new, take them out of the mix, Give them like two months to figure it out, that kind of stuff. So there's just so many variables.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, it's almost like, okay, it's cool.

It's an important part, but a very small part of the puzzle.

It's one of those things, like, the more, you know, the less you'll care about it.

Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, like, because we, we have an offer when they just started like, oh, and they close at 10 last week, I was like, yeah, but the main closer was away on holiday and we had two guys spin up and they had like four days notice to learn the account.

Yeah.

And it's a biz op. I was like, it's actually better than I thought they do.

Okay.

It's good. Good to be able to have like that context. And I think a lot of. And it's like not making changes to things because you have like anomalies. We, we work with like some of these really big companies. Right. And make snap changes based off a week's data.

Yeah.

I'm like, what are you doing? Like, like it's worked for four months, didn't work for a week. I don't think we should change. Like, let's just slow it down here.

What sort of changes are they wanting to make? Like, to the actual offer or to the process?

They'll try and do both. And if you make more than one change.

Well, yeah, yeah.

What, like, what are you doing? Like, we work with a company, they're really great offer. They have an external marketing company who I think like, doesn't understand this style of marketing. They're more of like a branding agency and they're trying to do like, direct response ads, which isn't like, their thing. Regardless of whether they want to know. It's clear, not their thing. But they were like, they doubling ad spend. And they have only have a. They have a 40% no show rate. And we told them last week, hey, you know, show rate isn't great. So I redid all the email sequences. I was like, okay, I've redone these, Give it two weeks. See what kind of changes that makes. And let's make these small tweaks and changes. They just went like three days later and doubled the ad spend.

Okay.

And then that made the issue worse. It's like, well, like now, but now I don't know if it's the fact that I changed the sequences that made it worse or is it the fact that you've just flooded us with cold traffic. Yeah, which one is it, bro? And they were like. And I was like, exactly. So either. Like, now I don't know what to do.

I know that it would be different for every account, but can you give me a ballpark of when you make a change? How long in between, like, how long do you give yourself to measure the difference?

I wouldn't say it's time. It's volume.

Okay.

If you got a crazy volume account that's banging in 100 calls a day, you can figure that out pretty quick because 100 is a pretty decent sample size.

Yeah, yeah.

But if they're booking five calls a day, I need at least, you know, maybe 7, 10, 12 days. You know, give it that time to where. Because you just got different buyers. Right. And the way that the back end of Facebook. Facebook is a machine learning platform. So Facebook will optimize for you. So but that's a good thing and a bad thing. So, like, if you do a bad job in the beginning and you categorize your ads wrong, like, if. So one of the offers that we do, they do like, land flipping. Phenomenal offer. Like, really, really good. The testimonials are crazy. People are selling. People are referring their mothers and fathers and brothers and uncles and. Yeah, which is always a great sign. But they made the mistake of, like, their ads seemed very real estate based, but not like business opportunity. Kind of like land.

Right.

And so like, not investment, which is what it is. And so they got categorized as real estate. So then they start getting cheap leads. But Facebook goes. The machine learning goes real estate. Like that. And then Optimizes all your ads for that.

Okay. Right.

And so like, a lot of people will like make the mistake and they'll like, they won't track things properly and all. They won't do the interest and the targeting effectively. And then they'll get like third world leads. Right. And then if you don't figure that out really quickly, Facebook will optimize for third world.

Yeah. Right.

And it's really good at it.

Yeah, I'll bet.

Right.

And, and so can you tell that from within, like the Facebook business?

Marco can.

Okay.

Yeah.

Marco and Charlie, they do ad account audits of all of our guys and the ones that we do like, we make sure that doesn't happen. But the, the companies that were not doing the ads and they'll request ad access. And like, Marco went in, he went in like two weeks before it happened and said, hey, guys, you're in risk of being categorized incorrectly as real estate. He goes, I would seriously recommend that you have a look at that. And then sure enough, two weeks later, oh yeah, we got categorized in the wrong thing.

And is that like, is it. You can see you are categorized. You find out these people coming in.

There'S ways to do it. You know, like Neo in the Matrix. He sees the ones and zeros. Yeah.

So I'm imagining that's what Marco does. But for anyone like watching, you got no chance that you could only tell that that's happening.

World class media buyers.

Right?

World class media buyers and marketers can figure it out. The rest of them are like, it took them. These guys are like a huge agency. Monstrous agency. And they had no idea.

Yeah.

Marco was like, that's going to happen. And then sure enough, two weeks later on a meeting, this happened. He's like, well, yeah, I know, I told you it's going to happen.

Yeah, sorry. Sorry to harp on it, but I'm still not fully understanding. They knew that that happened because of the calls they were on and the people were saying, oh, I thought it was this or.

Yeah, they had enough feedback.

Yeah.

What we'd given them and to see the leads coming through and the answers on the application forms to be able to figure out that it had happened. But Marco knew it was going to happen.

Yeah. Okay.

Which is a big difference.

This is a dude, isn't he?

He's pretty smart. Don't ask him any questions about it.

No.

But he's in the Matrix.

Oh, hard. He's the, like, I've seen, worked with a lot of marketers. He's by far the best marketer I've ever seen, like by far. And in five years he's gonna be terrifying. He'll be the fucking CMO of Tesla. I mean, hopefully.

Yeah.

Unless I buy Tesla.

Yeah, I was gonna say daddy Elon may not allow for that.

Yeah, I know.

But yeah. So that's sort of a long summation of like where things are coming from and how it's being done. Is an important dictator as to what you do and say.

Yeah.

You know, and so in your, in your first part of your sales call, depending on how you're doing that, whether it's outbound, whether it's triage, whether it's sales call, that all needs to be treated as one flowing conversation for the prospect. Because it is for the prospect. Right. So if you're having them as siloed conversations, it's one conversation with different outcomes and timeframes and potentially people. So like if someone's going to a lead list and I'll have like a three minute script and that script is designed to understand if they are problem aware. That's it. So it's like what are you looking for? Oh, okay, you have a problem that is matched up by our solution. That's all I need to know. And then I can get them into a 15 minute call. So like that call is going to go through a connection phase and that's about it. And it's like, okay, well if you want, what we can do is book in a call, we can go over a little bit more information with you. And then in between all those calls you'd have nurture sequences which solidify the next stage of that awareness.

Right.

So like you have an outbound three minute script, goes through your connection phase. Then you might have a triage which goes through like kind of a little bit of a recap of connection like very quickly. And then problem, problem awareness and then like a series of like logistical qualifiers which you can scale up and scale down depending on availability.

Let me get really specific on that. I see the ad on Facebook, I click it, I put in my name, phone number, email. Someone calls me on my actual phone at a random time. Because I haven't. All I've given is the phone number.

Yep.

And that's the, that's you.

So hopefully you've downloaded something or you've like five steps to systemize your business or how to generate money online. So like there should be a problem based download or video or something that you've watched where you would want to have access to that. So you'd get your phone number.

Okay, Right.

So I've given that I've watched that I've. I've interacted with the, the content in the way you wanted me to. Someone who like, works is Erica or works for Erica within sales Sniper.

Yeah.

Then rings me at a random time and says, hey, I saw you watch the content and that's where we find out if I'm problem aware.

Yeah, yeah, it's like, what, like, what did you hope to gain under watching it? Like, how did you do. What did you think of it? You know, what is happening at that point? Yeah, it's like, what is it that you're looking for? Like, why did you watch that?

Okay.

Oh, well, you know, I'm considering transitioning out of my nine to five. I'm looking for a bit of a career change. Oh, okay. Like, what do you do now? Oh, sweet. And how long you been doing that? Okay, cool. And what is it that you're kind of like, what do you think you're missing? Stopping you from kind of making that transition. All right, cool. Well, like, hey, listen, if you want, you know, and I, you know, I don't want to assume anything, but what I can do is kind of book a little bit of a longer call. We can go through it, see if there's some, you know, some, some things that we could possibly help you out with. Would that be cool? Yeah, perfect. All right, cool. Let's book a time then from there, like.

Okay.

And that's just a link you send them. Like how you book a thing.

I would do it on the call. I'd say I have, I have these times available which ones work for you.

And then do you disclose at that point it's not going to be me you're talking to. Like, it's going to be a different person.

Yeah, usually. So go, hey, I can book in with like a strategist or however it is you.

Okay. So you never say that. I'll hook you up with one of our sales killers. That will tie you in knots mentally, and you won't know how to say no. Yeah, you don't say that.

Account executive.

Account executive. That will talk you through the next steps from here.

It's like, it's usually called a strategy call.

Right, Strategy.

And I always have this, like, picture in my head of, like, all these Internet marketers around the table going like, hey, these motherfuckers are not showing up to these sales calls.

It's like, we need to rename them.

We'll name it a strategy call.

And everyone's like, yeah, got a medal for that.

Yeah. Russell Brunson is. Comes out from the ceiling, balloons fall from the sky. Yeah, yeah. And then everyone's like, strategy call. I think they know what it is.

Yeah.

Oh, well, as long. As long as they're a willing participant.

Yeah, they.

They are, they are. So you might have that. And then from there, like, depending on how long you have with that person, you could dictate where they would go. So they would. If, if you really only have the three minutes, if they're in the car and they, they can't concentrate or. But if you can spend. If you can kind of go through some of the other processes, like, and, and you feel like that you have, they have 10 minutes to spare, you could just triage them on the spot and send them straight to a sales call.

Okay.

You know, or if you don't really have the time, then you just put them into a triage. And then from there, like, it's very in and out.

Okay.

And then in between those steps, you would have like different nurture sequences that would go out.

Okay.

Which would send them different information because I know they're problem aware. So, like, I can send them things about Amazon, I can send them things about land flipping, I can send things about the sales training, you know, that kind of lets them know or like, you know, if it's seventh level, I can give them access to a free portal which takes them through what any PQ is. So it's like. And then that whole free portal is designed to like, these are all the things you're doing wrong. Yeah, these are all the problems. This is how any PQ kind of fixes some of those problems. But in this form of education and like, then they understand the brand, you know what I mean? So they kind of get a little bit of everything within those sequences.

So you're priming them to feel a certain way about the offer before the offer's ever made.

Yeah. One of the problems is like, a lot of these businesses, like, they just have like a sales process which is like you have one call and then you have two calls. It's like, okay, but that's fine if you have great salespeople, you know, I mean, and I'm in a privileged position where most of my salespeople are really good, but because we train the living Jesus out of them. But the process can do so much heavy lifting.

Yeah.

You know, you can, you can dictate what they do and you can start that early. You can have them go through an Education process. Because if it's like a three minute call, 15 minute call, a 60 minute call, that might take place over the course of 10 days. Yeah, man, that's like this 10 days. You could educate the living crap out of them. And then if the marketers know what they're doing, which a lot of times they don't, then they get detached. They get untagged from all promotional emails the moment that they get booked.

Okay, right.

So the moment that booking form is completed.

Right.

So they get outbounded, booking form is completed. That should auto happen where they get deed. So they don't get any promotional stuff.

Yeah, right.

And then it's all nurture sequence stuff. Depending on what then they're put into. So you can tag them with different things.

I've identified that myself. Like, you know, you.

It's bad marketers, man.

Oh dude, it's the worst. And especially when you're in the process of buying something and you're maybe paying full rate and then you get an email, 15% off and you're like, hey, hang on, hang on.

Like, yeah, bro, that happened to us with that exact land flipping guys the other day. They sent out a random promo without telling us. Yeah, 25% off.

Yeah.

And so people who you have in the process get that email and they're like, hey, I want my 25% off.

Yeah, yeah.

I said, hey, guess who's wearing the 25%.

Yeah, of course.

And they just went, oh. And I was like, and also you will pay me comms for anyone who had a call booked.

Yeah.

Because they bought straight from the. Yeah, they just bought from the email.

Yeah.

I was like, that's a guaranteed sale.

Yeah.

Like we would have made that sale and you just took it from my team. So we charging you comms. They were like, okay, yeah. I was like, don't do that.

That probably wasn't malicious from them.

Right.

It's just the good idea is fairy struck. And someone was like, hey, let's do this. Without thinking through the.

But that's what, that's the problem with sil load.

Yeah.

Marketers, we, we've, we've encountered that a lot. Like, and that's why I knew exactly, like, I knew how to hammer that thing in the head straight away. Like we encountered that a lot. Like people like the, the marketers, they don't like, they're on salary and like I actually had a chat with these guys the other day because I was really pissed off because they were doing a really bad job and they've Done a better job subsequently. I basically yelled at their entire team. Didn't yell, but I dead inside of them.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

And I just said, listen guys, like, I want you to raise your hand if you're on a salary. They're like, raise your hand. I said, none of my team has that luxury. I go, the lack of like speed that you guys are moving at is unacceptable. So I want you to imagine that you were not getting paid if you didn't do a good job. And right now none of you should be paid. And they were like, okay, that and. But it was true. It's just like, because marketers tend to work on large retainers, not many of them are willing to, to come in and actually really back themselves.

Okay.

You know, whereas I met a marketing guy. We had like, we have, we have one external marketing guy for seventh level. He specializes in like our self liquidating offer.

Okay.

The dude came in with like, what does that mean?

What's that term?

So it's like basically they, they're buyer leads. So they put together a package, they buy it for 50 bucks or 30 bucks upsell funnels wazoo. And then he does that whole thing himself. He's a fucking wizard at it.

Okay.

Wizard. Like we're getting 25 sales a day at five times return of ad spend.

So by self liquidating off, I mean you don't talk to anyone. You find it online, you click buy on the spot. And then in reality, we only sold you that product to get your details. The 50 bucks we made from it, I'm sure is nice to have. Yeah, but that wasn't the point. That was just to get your details and start you on a journey to a $10,000 product.

And at the worst case scenario, it should break even. So let's say average cart value is 67 bucks. If it costs you 67 bucks for that, you get free leads.

Mm.

And you're happy with that?

Yeah.

But right now he's getting us a five times return. Okay, so it's 12 bucks to get the 67.

Yeah. Right.

So we're getting paid a net of like $43 to get a lead.

Yeah, perfect.

Which is amazing. So it's just literally you spend as.

Much money as crank that bad boy.

And so right now what we're doing with that is we're working on the sales process. Because the initial sales process we tried didn't work that well. Like we had a bunch of calls, didn't make that many sales. It wasn't a sales issue. It was A sales process issue. And so like we listened to the calls and said those are good leads, but they're being asked to buy from us too early. Okay, Right. So same objection. Which, which I thought we would get, but I wanted to let his process play out. He's like, this works. Before I was like, well, I think it's going to work, but you're the guy, so I'll happily let you run that. And the exact same. Hey, only just bought this product. Give me like two weeks to figure it out and then I'll see if I want to upgrade. Which is a totally fair almost in like you can't overcome that objection.

So when you say we listen to those calls, the, the actual sales guys, there's a team leader and he's the one that listens to those. He or she's the one that listens to those calls. Like who, when you say we, he.

Will like to flag small issues. But if there's like larger issues at play, like if I can see that there's a statistical like anomaly, it's like, that doesn't make any sense. Then me and Marco will listen to a few.

Okay.

And it's like, okay, I see what's happening here. And then you can just tell by listening to four or five of them and put them on the car. Like, oh yeah, I listen to the whole thing. I can listen to like 10 minutes of it and go, okay, that's a, that's a good lead, good sales guy doing all the right things.

The processes, the process is wrong.

Okay.

So then we just fix the process to extend it out. So now they get that call. The point of that call is now to ensure that they implement what they, what they like, what they bought effectively.

Right.

Which is then going to do nothing but build more brand trust, build product awareness. Then from there they stay in touch with them for like a 10 day period, have another call at 10 day mark. Now they've got the product, they've used it, they've been told to implement it, they've been helped out for 10 days. Then we sell them. So that process is being played out at the moment. That should then bring a lot of. We're selling the 8K product for that so that we should get a really good close rate to the 8K. And then that will like that return of ad spend then goes from like 5 to like 25. Because those sales are being attributed to that.

Yeah.

So when you say you listen to it, Marco listens to it, or that team leader listens to it, you Identify the problem in the process, you change that. With the sales guys, there's a training, a new script, something like that.

Yeah.

How often and are you open to it if one of the sales guys is like, hey, I see a problem.

Oh yeah, that's, that's, yeah, that's, that's fine. That's fine.

Okay.

A lot of the time it'll be like, though, a lot of the time they're acting on emotion and it's a bit too quick. And I just go, hey, man, like this is, this is your job. Like your, your job is going to have an inherent ups and downs.

Okay.

So the way you answer that tells me it happens a fair bit. Right? Like you do get that kind of feedback from people.

Yeah, yeah.

And then it'll usually be up to TL level and then like the TL will go, hmm, I don't think so. You know, because they have the, they have the totality of the team. But if, like, if every, like, for example, like if everyone's getting the same objection, it's a marketing problem.

Okay.

You know, I mean, but if you're. And that's why we track objections. So we have a graph and if it's overwhelmingly one type, like we have four main objections that we track time and think about it. Money partner. If it's all money, it's like, well, okay, either we've priced the offer wrong so it's too expensive, or we're just getting the wrong people in. So we can start off, depending on how much control we have. We can start off fixing that with a process issue so we can change the process to qualify for money more, or we can get funding offers in place, which is what we usually do. So we'll get them to bring in like a funding partner, which is getting harder as, as, as the recession meter ticks up, funding is becoming much more difficult. They've just changed a lot of us from 600 to 650 scores in the states, which is a pretty significant uptick and sort of who can get funding and who can't. But anyway, then from there you might have to adjust payment plans and kind of adjust like scripting and process things. And then if that's not really doing it, then you're going to have to tell the marketing team, hey guys, we need to like, this is a real problem. We're seeing it across the board. This is the data that we're getting. You guys gotta don that messaging a little bit more.

Okay.

And when you are the marketing as well, that happens immediately. And there's no pushback. It's like, yes.

Yeah.

Well, the thing is, most. Not any. I can't think of a single market that's a good salesperson.

Okay.

So the. The problem is marketers do not have the ability to listen to a sales call and go, that's badly.

Yeah, okay, Right.

Because they don't know the nuances of what they're listening to. You know, like, they think that someone filled an application form and poured their heart out and said they make a bunch of money is a good lead. But, like, and this might be a controversial statement, but I've done lots of sales, and I have. I could not sit on witness stand and say there is a correlation between application form and sale. I don't use application forms for that. I use them for, like, sales process. It allows me to divvy up leads into different pools based off some assumptions that are maybe correct, maybe incorrect, but at least I have a process that I'm using. And I can ratchet up and down as I want to. But when I sold fitness, people would come in, they just pour their heart out on these. And most of the time, the longer the heart pour out, the worse. I just go, oh, no. And then as a sales guy, what I started doing is I started not looking at any of the application forms because then I started to form my own biases. And so I would treat people differently just subconsciously.

Yeah.

From the biases that I had from their form. So I just stopped looking at them.

Okay.

And then I found that when I stopped looking at them, I was made. I made more sales. Because, like, I'd come in, the person would say, I make $500 a month. And I'll be like that. You know what I mean? But, like, what it failed to ask.

Was, how much have you got in the bank?

How much you got in the bank? Yeah, yeah, I need to make any money. I have a ton of it. I just got a $900,000, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

So, like, I learned I had steady pays for everything. Y. I had too many of those instances where I was like, all my assumptions are wrong. And I was like, just because, you know, someone pours their heart at 3am on a Facebook on a type form, it just doesn't mean that they're one. Any of that's real. They might have just been really sad or emotive and like. Or the ad just pulled something from them, but then they kind of woke up out of their stupor.

Yeah.

You know, so I just don't really put Much merit in it.

Yeah.

So. Yeah, but. And then, so, so once you've figured all that stuff out, you know, and you've got your three, three minute call, your 15 minute call, your 60 minute call, like, you just got to make sure that that kind of flows as one. Because what pisses people off is if, like, they're being handed off to different people and that conversation is not being passed on.

Yeah. Okay.

That's what I wanted to ask about as well. Like, when it's a different person every time, how much overlap is there? Like, you're gonna get fatigue of selling the same story, giving your situation all the time.

Yeah. What you never want to hear is, like I said, two things you never want to hear in sales is, man, you're a good sales guy. That person never buys.

Ever.

Oh, never, bro. I've been told that a couple times. And I just, like, went hard. I was like, well, I guess we'll find out.

Yeah.

Challenge. Except never.

Never gotten them.

Really? Never.

It's like, it's basically they've removed themselves from the process emotionally.

Yeah.

So they're. They're like. I imagine because I've said that to people as well. I said it to that guy out there, remember? The wine group guy that kept harassing me and I was like, I'm never going to buy from you, but I want to commend you on your follow up. It is amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it's kind of like that.

Not amazing enough to code you, but.

But amazing enough where I viewed some of your process so that I could speak back and say, please take me off your list because I don't drink wine. It's not your product, but I imagine.

That happens if you did drink wine.

He tried it.

Well played.

But I imagine that conversation happening almost like a third person that says that, like, my avatar will sit here and you can continue to talk to me, but the real me has said to you, this isn't happening, but carry on.

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Right?

Yeah.

And then the other one is like I said, okay, well, like I said, well, it's like that's. That's basically common parlance for. Weren't you fucking listening?

Yeah.

Yeah, right. And then, like, if they've been there, there's a lot of frustration that that brings out when they've been transferred to different people. Okay, well, like I told the last guy. You know what I mean? So you got to make sure. And one of the problems that we find is when do we get. Because, like, I don't want to have three people and have two people do that. Ideally one person just banging it outbound, put them into sales call, doing their own thing. Right. That's the ideal scenario. But unrealistic in some spaces it's unrealistic depending on lead flow. Like if you guys got a shitload of lead volume, right. And you're kind of having to like field them. That like having having 12 sales guys service a thousand leads is. It's just not a good idea. So you could have like two.

It's not an efficient use of that.

Yeah, you could have two SDRs kind of going after.

What's SDR?

Sales development representative. Fancy name for someone who sets up sales for somebody.

Okay, right.

So they could be doing all these sort of the Facebook group, the Instagram, the DMing, the LinkedIn and the Outbound. And then that's their job is to kind of hurdle the kittens and, and push them into this and the sales guy takes over from there.

Okay, right.

But you don't want to have a third person. It really fucks up the process. We made that mistake for a while of having like a triage individual. It's a bad, it's a bad model.

Okay.

So if it's a three step thing, you go one, one, two or one, two, two. Yeah, one, two, two.

One, two, two is better.

Okay, right.

Because like there are different stages in development. Good sales reps will always want to handle their own triage.

Okay.

Shitty sales reps don't.

Okay.

That's something that I've learned.

Okay.

Like anyone who's really good at sales will go, now I will, I, I will do it.

During that triage, do you ever go, oh, I see that, I see the light like, and do the sound.

That's a trap.

Yeah, I said don't fall for that.

I've done rarely works out.

Okay.

Like, first of all, like, you've only booked him in for 15 minutes.

Yep.

So then like, you then run into the very, very likely objection of, hey man, this all sounds great. Like, I only had, I don't have time to kind of go through a lot of this. So you've gone a lot of the way through. And then you try and book in the next call, but you've already kind of pitched them and it's, it's a difficult one to kind of overcome. Okay. Because you've, you've put yourself in that box.

Yeah. Right.

Have you done it successfully?

Yeah.

Okay, I've done it. It's just not a good, like you can't do it. It's just not a good idea. It's not. It's not. It's not best practice, in my opinion. It's someone who's done it, used to try it a lot. You should be like, smash. Smack this guy around a little bit. And most the time it would, like, they do the refund because just. It's just too quick. Again, I didn't understand that I had to take them through the stages. I didn't understand the importance of the process.

So even though the goal is wide open, you're still gonna dribble all the way to it before you kick in.

You're not gonna. Yeah, yeah. No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't take the open shot anymore.

Okay.

I used to, but the more I did, I was like, that's a bad idea.

Yeah.

Because, like, even though you could pull it off.

Yeah.

Like, you're just better off having a predictable process.

Have you ever had regret of not doing it? So have you ever then, like, done the triage. Go to the end in the triage, like, everything's going along and you're like, this is going to be the best sales call ever. And when the. The sales call happens, it's a different person. You talk like an emotionally different person. And they're not open to the idea, and you couldn't close them. And you're like, buck, I wish I'd done that before.

Not that I can remember. I mean, I'm sure. I'm sure there's been an instance where that's happened.

Okay.

But I just think, like, you're just in a better space. It's a far more consistent process, if you follow. Because the thing about sales is like. Like, the process is so important because it's what gives you your data, which gives you all your feedback loops.

Okay.

So the same thing as shooting, right? Yeah. I could use my mill dots or I could use extra time and dial it in. You're probably going to do better off. Yeah, I've practiced using my mill dots, but it's just not as good. Yeah, that's sort of what I would do, but then is you need to lay it out really, really clearly and make it one conversation. And that's why you have to have your team kind of work together to do it. And then it's got to flow off one script, and everyone's got to know what their job is and not try to do the next job.

And is that ever an issue?

Huge issue all the time.

Okay.

Like, it's when people try and like, they're trying to make it easier for their closer.

Right.

Like, because they're kind of. Kind of becomes like, I'm gonna set you up.

I'm throw this out of you.

Yeah.

It's like, no, no, you suck at this. That's why you're you and I'm me.

Yeah.

You know, like, you haven't figured this out yet. So, like, their instincts are nowhere near as good as the sales guys are. That's why there's a big discrepancy in skill and money, you know? So it's like, don't do my job for me. Let me do my job. I'm better at my job than you are at yours.

Yeah.

And I'm certainly better at my job than you are at mine. That's one thing that I really try and harp on people, especially when they're in that outbound sort of sdr, even triage a role. It's like, don't do the next level up. You will fuck up the process. Because, like, you don't know how to read the signals well enough. You know, it'd be like a pet behavioralist coming in and trying to, like, oh, well, I'll just train your dog how to bite.

Yeah.

So they're.

I'll do it for you. Don't worry about it.

They're saying in black and white, and it's actually just various shades of gray.

Exactly. So, but, you know, it's. It's a consequence of people wanting to move up the ladder, which is great. But the problem is that they're just, you know, young. It's just youth.

Yeah.

You know, which is, you know, and a lot of the people in that. In that SDR role are young and they're hungry, and they. And that's why they're good at it, because they have a high level of activity. But the problem being when you. When you try and do the next level up, but you don't really understand what's trying to be attained and what some of the red flags are and green flags are, then you just end up with the process.

So there's so much process to all of this that's established within this business that I imagine was you created and then, like, picked up that template and put it over or. Who taught that to you? Like, all that activity stuff?

To be honest, nobody. Which is kind of weird, I think. Obviously, you absorb things.

Yeah.

You know, but for me.

So I'm not saying that, like, I'm not saying you invented it.

Yeah, yeah.

But the process.

There was nobody yeah.

Okay. No one sat you down and went, this is the things you need to do.

No, the thing. The thing that, that I. Because I did so many outbound sales. Because in fitness, it's just phone number outbound. And so, because I had, like, comically ridiculous KPIs, like, the KPIs were 50% of all leads sold.

Okay.

In fitness.

Fucking hell, man.

Yeah.

So, like, the only way I could ever achieve that was through getting lots of referrals because I knew I could sell maybe 30%, and I knew that. So I was like, well, if I have 500 leads, I need to make 250 sales. I was like, I know I can get like, 180 from these leads. I need. I need 70 referrals. Okay, right. So, like, one in three at the minimum will have to give me a referral.

And when you were doing that, is there any extra commission to you when you. You're generating your own leads then?

Dude, I got no commission when I was doing that.

Why?

Why? But why? Because I was an owner.

Okay.

But I owned, like, at that stage because of, like, this much the dilution, I reckon. I own 7%.

Yeah.

Right.

Okay.

I was on an 80K flat salary.

Salary.

Yeah.

Right. And just hating life, I recall. Yeah. I had to do PT to kind of make enough money to live as well. So I'd spend the mornings from 5:00am doing PT, and then I would start work at like, 8:00am yeah. So at 5 to 8. And then 8 to 8.

So.

So, because.

So before you go, on a personal note, like, that was such a. For you to go through, but had you not, this would not be happening.

I know.

Isn't it funny how that works out? Yeah, that's that Chinese farmer, maybe.

Chinese farmership, yeah, I'm into that.

It's a old fable of, like, the Chinese farmer, he. His horse runs away and the town says, oh, that's terrible. And he goes, maybe. And then the next day the horse comes back, but it brings with it like, seven wild horses. They're like, that's awesome. And he goes, maybe. And then they're trying to break in these wild horses, and his son breaks his leg and they're like, oh, no, that's terrible. And he's like, maybe. And then the next day, like, the conscription officers come around and they're looking for people and they can't take him because he's broken legally. That's fantastic. Maybe it's like, you just don't know how shit's gonna pan out.

My kid dies of Bowel cancer.

Way to go, doc.

Dad goes maybe, maybe. Yeah, yeah. Like I think like I, I think I had a. I had a Slumdog millionaire. Ten years of like what I would consider looking back fairly difficult. Like work, life, money. The whole thing was 10 years of absolute grinding to be in a position where like I have enough backend knowledge now without any like real traditional learning around stuff. But like I ran brick and mortar. Really difficult business model. I went from having like one gym to them being like the sort of part owner and essentially like the chief revenue officer for lack of a better term of like 18 gyms. I had 100 full time staff. So I was constantly problem solving the marketing and the sales of all these different things. And then I was training sales teams because I, but like I could do it. But then I had to figure out a way to translate other people to do it. And then James was doing that with me at that. And then I always had the hardest gyms. So like the gyms that I ran were in like horrendous areas that were just like that. It was just all people who didn't give a fuck about fitness. Right, right, right. You know, like the one I ran in Rockdale was like heavily like Nepalese community. And like I got along with them great but like they just didn't have a. There was just not a cultural of.

Going to the gym.

We love fitness.

Yeah.

And so like the ones that we did get like it was, it was a very hard. I'm talking 45 minute sales for $97.

Yeah, right.

Yeah. I mean whereas now I would probably wrap that up in 15. But like it took real. And Marco sold in that one too. And it was like that was tough like that. He really enjoyed it though. So he was, you know, it's funny story, he was calling people like 10pm at night because nobody would pick up ever. And so he just started calling people.

At 10:00pm Family emergency. Yeah, you're fat.

He would triple dial. They'd be like, what's happening? He's like, hey, this is Marco. You're not fat. So there was.

It's a 24 hour gym. Get down there now.

Yeah, bro. I remember this. I remember this one time we had a crazy guy who was directly across because we're on the second floor. He's directly across. Yeah, balcony that. And he, he was like, hey, can I come over? I was like, yeah, sweet, come over. And he was saying how he hated he had tits. This is his word. He's like, I got my friend. I was like, I want to get rid of him. I was like, yeah, sweet sign up. And he was like, nah. And I remember every day I'd see him on his balcony. I go, how those just gone, bro.

I like them. I've decided to keep him.

That was a weird gym. The adjacent, like the direct neck. We shared a wall. One day I was in the office and I look up and like, swat.

Yeah, right.

And I'm like, hey, boys, what's going on? They're like guys holding his family hostage. That. So this is the area that I was in.

Okay. Right.

There's housing commission. So it was really, really difficult sales. And then so. Because I kind of cracked that nut, like, I taken those systems. Then when I started opening gyms, it was so hard. It was so difficult. The KPIs that we had were so unrealistic, but we had to hit them. I remember one time they called me, hey, can you. Can you do this? This is your KPI. I said, oh, it's completely unachievable. They go, that's a bad mindset. I go, what's not? I just go, if you have a look at, like, statistically over the last year of everything that we've done, that would involve me doubling the rate of our best month.

Yeah.

I was like, that's just statistically so unlikely. And they go, well, that's what you have to do. I go, okay, okay, okay. I can accept that.

It.

But just don't forecast off it.

Yeah.

And they, no, no. I was like, you can set that measure KPI, that's fine, because you could use that as a way to fire me. And I understand how business works, but do not forecast off this.

Don't expect me to achieve it.

And they go, no. I go, no, do not fucking forecast off this. You can set it as my KPI, but do not.