How I used time travel to close more deals
Matt Ryder discusses sales tactics that work: simple questions beat complicated qualifiers, and debate techniques improve objection handling. He ran a three-week daily challenge offering $20,000 to boost affiliate referrals, and explains why teaching what you know cements understanding better than copying someone else's style.
Chapters
A really interesting habit that sales reps have, they'll add qualifiers and modifiers to things like, oh Pat, so when you said this, like, what did you mean? Instead of going like, what do you mean? Would you ever go, hey Pat, when you said you wanted a hamburger, like, what type of hamburger would you like?
Yeah, why are you saying that?
Are you retarded? Like, what the fuck's happening here? Did you look into the MOTOC project? The time travel project?
Nah, tell me about that.
It's pretty dark. We'll go into it. There's a chair called the MOTOC chair, and that's the time travel chair. It will go into different timelines, but you can only send kids because it's It scrambles adults' brains. They don't have the plasticity. This is where it gets weird. The way that you unlock the portals is not super pleasant. The large percentage of plane crashes are female pilots.
Really?
I did not know that. Yeah. They're a very small demographic. But yeah, like it's massively outsized. Love you women, but you can't fly a plane. You ever watch like abortion debates?
Uh, yeah.
And it goes, okay, so what's the line? Uh, 9 weeks. And you go, what about 8 weeks and 6 days? It's like, when are you deciding when you can kill the baby? And it's like—
I feel like you had that conversation sitting around in the army. You know where it's like, we just snuck someone's dick for a million dollars. Yeah, yeah, it's like about $999,000. Like, that's the same conversation.
Shockingly low. People watched the entirety of the last one. Did they?
Some of them.
Who did? Mom. Your mom? Dorothy Mantooth is the same. You take that back, take her out for a nice seafood dinner. I feel like, you know, you know what's funny is, um, I got this reel the other day and it was, uh, like about like ADHD people. And you know, like, you, you realize, you know, with movie quotes, you, you ever realize that you don't have a personality?
Yeah, you're just a conglomerate. Well, with things you've experienced.
Yeah, like, I think I'm this super unique and special human being, and then turns out I have the exact same traits as a lot of other people. Yeah.
Yeah, I think it's funny. It's a funny one when, um, rap though. Do you ever say stuff in front of your kids they don't get and then you have to explain, oh, that's a line from a movie from the '90s?
Yeah.
And it's not funny. Like, like, because I'll say something stupid in front of Jane and she gets it and be like, oh yeah, like, I get the reference. But the kids will be like, what does that mean? What are you talking about? Oh good. You can imagine if the best jokes are the ones you have to explain. Yeah, without a doubt. That's how you know you're on a good joke.
Have you ever watched the movie Pootie Tang?
No.
Pootie Tang. Pootie Tang. No. This is a deep cut for any US millennials. So there was a movie that came out in like the early 2000s about a superhero called Pootie Tang. And he's like a ghetto pimp superhero. And he used to, he had like a really powerful slap. Right? And then he had his, he had a belt with a big belt buckle and he would flick it out and then he'd get it back in and it would loop itself back around. Okay, yeah. But he talked in nonsense. He would say things like, "Sat up, Teyma Demi. I'm gonna sign your diddy on the runny can." And so none of it made any sense like that, but you sort of, you could figure out what he was saying.
Yeah.
But it was hilarious. And so that line, "Sarap te ma deme," is like a really good barometer for me. Yeah, right. As to how deep in the sphere are people on like obscure movie references.
How well do you know '90s movies? Yeah.
If I was to say, also it's my comeback to like any Gen Z or Gen Alpha. Slang I don't understand. Yeah. I just go, I know, right? Sat up to my damey. I bet you're gonna sign that diddy on the running card.
And they go like, what the fuck?
I mean, like, don't you know that one yet? Oh, okay. You're obviously a faggot. Then they get that one.
They get that one.
This is so offensive.
The hard F. What's new?
Last 2 weeks? You know, doing that challenge we were just talking about before, super interesting. So explain it. So $20,000 US.
So in your school?
Yeah, in my school competition, 3 weeks, this is the last week of it. So they had to do like daily activities and then there was like a different activity each week. So it was like ask for referrals, do follow-ups, just do sales data, whatever sales data you had, it didn't matter. Like so good, bad, ugly, whatever, just do it. And then like there's all these little things that you have to do each day, go to the gym, have 7 hours sleep, post in the group, post about the group externally. So the goal was like, you know, get more affiliates referrals, which like has worked. The affiliates have gone up by about 15-20%. Right. Nowhere near enough to cover $20,000. But anyway, and then from there, like, you know, I wanted to do discovery. The goal was like more members, more affiliate traffic. And better on discovery. Okay, so more affiliate traffic has worked, better on discovery has worked, more members is not— it's, you know what I mean? Because what happened was the more the guys posted about them working hard, people quit, which was fucking fascinating.
So a lot of people in the school then were like, I see other people working real hard towards this goal of you giving them $20K. I don't want any part of these people. Yeah, fuck this, I'm out. Yeah. And probably just like, this makes me feel bad about myself because I'm not gonna do that. Fascinating.
Yeah, yeah, literally being a loser. Yeah, acting as if you lost. Yeah, yeah, like pre-losing. Yeah. So I was like, because it's not difficult, all you have to do is do the things. Yeah, it's laid out. If you do everything every day, you will win.
Okay, right.
And then there's a separator because like the first week—
And it's $20,000 prize.
Yes.
So, and how long does it go for? 3 weeks. 3 weeks. So for most people in the school, if you made achieving this your full-time job, yeah, you're going to pay better than what most people are doing. It's going to make $20K for the month, $20,000 US dollars for the 3 weeks.
By the time this comes out, this will already be done. The winners are like, and it's a blind leaderboard.
Yeah.
That was an important component because most of them are mathematically eliminated, but they don't know that.
Right.
Right. So if you're competing and you're not the guy who I'm pretty sure is gonna win, you have almost no chance. Right. Right? But, so, like, the first week there was a multiplier, it was 1.1 times all of your points for the week, right? So 10% more, and you had to get a stranger to buy you lunch.
Mm-hmm.
Right? The second week was you had to sign up a stranger to the group, which was a 20% multiplier. And the third week is 100 connected cold calls. Right? It's like outside of your comfort zone shit. Then there's a 50-point bonus It's a trade-up challenge.
Which— trade-up challenge?
Yeah, so you got to start with an item worth less than $5, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so people are fucking doing it. Like, one guy right now, he messaged me, he sent me a photo. He's got a projector, right? He started off with like a fucking pen.
Okay, okay.
All right, so over the course of 2 and a half weeks, traded himself up to like probably a $1,000 projector.
Okay.
You know what I mean? And they're doing social media campaigns like, I'm trying to get a Rolex. If I get the Rolex, I'll give it to you. It's like, all you gotta do is like help promote me, get trades, do this kind of shit, right? So dudes are like going after it, 'cause that's 50 points and that goes over the entire thing. So like the top 3, whoever wins the trade-up challenge, if one of them wins it, then that's the winner. Right. Right? So like that's the long game. So I kind of tried to formulate it in like a, like go to the gym, eat healthily, get some sleep, which is like seems normal shit, normal shit, right? Then from there it's like, do follow-ups, ask for referrals, do sales data. That's it. Like, you do that, you're gonna, you're gonna do pretty well. And then you've got these little multipliers, which is like hard things, you know what I mean? And so it's been super interesting. There's 1,000 people in the group. 97 showed up to the first call to be in the challenge, because if you didn't do that, you, you were, you're out. 47 showed up at the end of week 1, 14 at the end of week 2. So those people who show up to the calls They were the ones who were like, I'm competing.
Yeah, but the ones that showed up to the first call, have you tracked? Are most of them gone from the group?
Uh, I haven't actually looked at that.
Yeah.
Um, I would assume maybe, you know what I mean? That would be— that'd be— it's just I think also there's a lot more posting, so like you kind of have to take that into account. Um, you know what I mean? Because like maybe that annoys people with like notifications or whatever. But it was really interesting because the group started at 951, went down to 930. Like net, and I'm signing up people every day. It's back up to like 950, 960 now because I've been posting more, right? But like it's been super interesting to see like people's kind of mentalities drop. The discovery is better though. I was at 150, now I'm at like 105 or something like that. But like not, it's not a meaningful enough jump to sort of make any of it worthwhile. 'Cause I told them like if I hit certain metrics, I go, if at the end of this challenge we're at 1,100 members, Right? I was like, I will do a $50,000 challenge. Yep. Like that. So like, there's like 10 of them that got together and they were like, we are gonna go hard in the paint. Yeah. But like, they just don't have any pull. Like, they just don't have, like, they don't have any clout. Good try. You know what I mean? To like get people in. But what I do like is like, they're just, they're having a red hot crack. So I think what I'll do is I'll just do like kind of smaller, type shit. Like, I don't mind giving away, you know, $5,000 every month to like make it a cool thing that the group does. Like, that's cheaper than doing— because I'm like, it's cheaper than advertising. It's cheaper than advertising. And the guys were like, well, to get to 1,100, why don't you do ads? I was like, well, fuck you. I said, I can give it to Mark Zuckerberg, then I don't need you, motherfucker. And then I do no challenges.
Yeah.
And they was like, oh yeah. I was like, either Mark Zuckerberg gets the money or you guys get the money.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, but I don't want to do ads because it's the whole thing. Yeah. You know, I don't really wanna do it and it just seems annoying when I can just like drip feed people in. Totally. You know what I mean? And then I figured out if I just, I'm doing for this month, I'm doing a session every day and like that seems to be, and that session gets posted. And so like people have been upgrading to have a part of that. And every day's a different thing like objections, role play, tonality, yada yada.
Yeah, yeah.
And so like that just creates new content all the time. So I'm trying that, and that I've been doing that for this week and it's already like the numbers have jumped pretty significantly.
Yeah, nice.
For the week. But yeah, what about you?
Um, yeah, it's gone pretty good. Like I, the thing I changed in the school is I'm going to start these, uh, I'm going to call them like learn your dog sessions. So on a Friday arvo, probably do it every second week or so, get someone in. Had a guy come in last week and it's like I've rigged this place for cameras, so it all feeds HDMI to my desk.
Start like Only Dogs.
Only Dogs. Yeah.
Oh, an Only Dogs session.
So I can just hit record on one thing and it goes everywhere. So I can like, it's pretty cool. And then I can edit that out and turn that into sessions. And so dude came in, had a dog that, you know, like he'd got for one purpose, tried to turn it to another bit. It didn't work. So I was like showing him how to fix the problems. And sort of teaching him who his dog was. And then we get all that content. That's going to be like a regular thing that goes into it. People seem to like that. So that's pretty good.
Who his dog was.
Yeah. So, you know, like, dog's got a personality. It's capable. It wants to do certain things, you know, like, so like this dog in particular, the guy brought it in. It was a show line German Shepherd. And he's like, it's, it's a very pretty dog. Okay. Right. So like in most dogs, Yeah. So in most dog breeds—
High maintenance.
Very pretty. Yeah. In most dog breeds, there's like, for pedigree type dogs, there's working line and there's show line. Okay. And so—
Are show line like retarded?
Well, it's where the breeder puts their selective pressures. So show line will always be like—
Is that code for which puppies they murder?
Well, no, no, no, no. They're totally different bloodlines altogether. Okay. So, but yes, but so like a dog show is like breed, it's confirmation. Like, does the dog look the right way? And there's very little concern for the temperament of show dogs, right? Like it's not a lot of assessment in that region and there's no assessment of like workability or anything like that. So like German Shepherds are a definite breed that has like a clear distinction between the working line and the show line dogs.
Okay.
Right.
Springer Spaniels is a good example.
As well. Like a Springer Spaniel, you can tell the moment you look at one. And no one in the show line world pretends to work their dogs, right? It's not— they're like, no, my dog is for prettiness.
I brush its hair.
Yeah, we brush it, we run around in the ring and show it running in circles. I wear a stupid suit and do all this. I'm not a dog show person. Like, I upset people when I— like, I've never been to one. So like, it might be cool and I don't know, but it ain't my thing, right? I have been to one actually.
Yeah, it's just people running on a dog show or a hobby horse show. Dog show.
Although, obviously, it was funny. Um, so anyway, this guy has a Showline German Shepherd, so it's just a very pretty dog that doesn't want to work. And he'd wanted a guard dog, and so he'd taken it to a guard dog center, and they'd made it afraid of shit. And they'd made it afraid enough to bark at shit, that's for sure. Yeah.
Um, but like, you know, train a guard dog, you just basically make a dog terrified.
Yeah.
And then it just kind of like— so beat it. So, and then you run away when it shows aggression, right?
Well, sort of. Right. So there's— Don't do that. Like, that is a very simple, pretty accurate way of describing it. Like, there's a lot more to that, but there's these drives, right? So like, drives are the internal desires of the dog, right? And so every dog, every person has that in various states. One of the drives is defense, which is a response to a threat. Okay. And so most guard dogs are trained in defense where they are like, oh no, you're a threat and I have to respond to you in order to push that away. Yeah, but the reinforcer of defense, right? Well, the, the behavior that comes of defense is aggression. So defense is more of a mindset. Yeah, the behavior is aggression, but the reinforcer of aggression is distance. Aggression doesn't want to fight, right? Like, so, like, it's like, you know, the dickhead is puffing his chest up.
You're like, sure, you don't want to fight.
Like, you're trying to make sure the fight doesn't happen. Yeah. And that's what is mostly a guard dog is trying to do. Yeah, exactly. That guy wants to fight. Exactly. So that's a whole nother thing. That is a very good example, right? That's a super good example of that dude. Some dickhead streamer is very rude and threatens the maître d' at a restaurant who is clearly aroused by the threat and is like, he has a battle erection. So that's actually a really good example of like the kind of thing that would happen with my dog, right? So if you try to threaten my dog, my dog would be like, ah, no. Like I'm very willing to fight, but I am not threatened. Like, this will be fun for me.
There's no fear.
No, none whatsoever. And so that's a different thing. So defense always is a response to a threat. And so if a dog doesn't have it— most dogs have defense. Like, they're not going to die without preserving themselves in one way or another. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, exactly right. No, so your dog's a good example, right? So he has no self-preservation, which is like That's kind of the dream in a family pet because you step on their tail as you walk past and they apologize.
Yeah, you're just like, oh, I was in the wrong spot.
So certainly for like a Cavalier King Charles, that's highly desirable because we don't ever need you to defend yourself or anything else, right? Because you're incapable. So that's fine. Yeah, just give up. Just roll. But most dogs will have a crack, but they're very uncomfortable and it is— they're panicking. They're freaking the fuck out. And so like, you know, most dogs can be turned into a guard dog. Most dogs can guard, like, guard stuff because they're too afraid of not doing it. Yeah, but that is not— that does not mean they're gonna bite. And usually when they bite, their bite is like, ah, like, they're just enough to get away. Yeah, not a persistence.
So really, in a guard dog, like, you don't really want the dog to fully on somebody because you're going to get shit for it.
Well, and also, like, you're depending on what you want in terms of guarding. Like, you don't want the dog chasing off the property. Because like you can't do that. Like now if your dog goes and blasts someone in the street, it's hard to justify that they were guarding the house. Yeah, exactly. Um, so there's lines to draw in that. But anyway, so the guy, like, the dog had been trained in like guard dog type stuff, and I was like, dude, he's never— he is not a guard dog. Like, he wants to be your best buddy that goes places with you. And so, and what results then is the dog gets like fucking scared because you show the dog a picture of like, if the dude looks like this, it's scary, right? Like, respond. But then the dog can't read that all the time.
He's got to determine that shit.
And so before long, the dog's going off at everyone. And so you end up with just a headache dog that's barking at everyone because it's afraid of everyone.
Also, if you want to join my community, there's a school group. It's $69 a month, and you can go up to $199, and we have up to 25-30 coaching sessions a week with about 15 different coaches. Plus we even have a weekly competition where I give away $1,000, so that's fun.
So yeah, that's working dogs in defense. It, it, like, you, like, with the real dog that you want to get to fight proper, you The idea is we say that prey should bring the dog into the fight and defense should keep them there. So the dog should be like, no, I want this. Yeah, okay. And, and then if it's going bad, the dog's like, oh shit, I gotta kick it up a notch, like, I, I'll like, like bring the aggression. But the dog should be like, no, no, I want, I want this, like, I'm not trying to scare you away.
Whereas, yeah, I was watching this thing. Have you heard Chase Hughes?
Yeah, he kind of come out of nowhere. Hey, he's a psyop.
Yeah, he's a psyop about the psyops. Yeah, he's on dialer. It's, it's, um, like, I know the guys who run his sales team and stuff like that. It's pretty interesting.
What's he sell?
Um, like, I wouldn't say it's, it's not sales. It's more like persuasion. I don't even know if it's that. I think it's more like don't be persuaded. Okay. I think it's like learn how to recognize.
Yeah. Okay.
When you are being, and also like how to interact with psychopaths and how to identify those kinds of people. Cool. And then just how to communicate in a way that gets your outcomes. But it's not really sales. I would say it'd be even detrimental in sales because like you'd be overthinking a lot of stuff, right? It's more like long-term communication strategies. But he had a kind of really interesting thing that I was watching the other day and it was like people have, like when you see a Karen that just loses it, he's breaking it down. It's like you have identity, like, which is like your sense of like your core identity. Then you have safety, and you have like your status in the community. Yeah, those are like the three things that kind of shape basically everything that you do and say, right? And so like, but if like if one of the things is threatened, then like you can handle that. If two of them are threatened or perceived to be threatened, then you'll have a complete fucking meltdown. Yeah. And so like when Karens freak out, like their sense of like identity. So that's why people throw logic out the window. Like they just do completely, like they will just argue against logic nonstop because it goes against their sense of identity. Yeah. Like when you talk to a mad lefty that's just saying like, you know, like we should have like inclusion policies for all hiring. It's like, but what about the NBA? Well, and it's like an immediate like, well, it doesn't work. 'Cause if it doesn't work in one scenario, it works in no scenarios. Yeah. And then you bring up the fact that women crash planes all the time? 'Cause they do. Love you women, but you can't fly planes.
Is that a thing? Is there stats for that?
Yeah, dude. You ever looked at the stats? No. Yeah, it's not great.
Really?
The large percentage of plane crashes are female pilots. Really? Yeah.
I did not know that.
Yeah. Like, so, like, they're a very small demographic with a very outsized—
Yeah.
Most crashes are tiny. Right, like, you know, hitting a pole on the thing. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Like, but it's a plane crash nonetheless. Um, but yeah, like, it's massively outsized.
Yeah, okay.
Um, and so, like, you know, it's just a thing. Like, it's a statistical— like, it's there, it's very clear. Um, but, like, uh, you know, so people start to freak out. But then, like, when two things are— like, when two things begin to be— like, it's a complete total fucking meltdown. So I was watching this video, it was fascinating to Like, because I've been going into like logic a ton. Like, I'm really enjoying like watching debates, but like not for like the— but for like the strategy. You know Andrew Wilson? You're watching breakdown debates a little bit. Yeah, like he's an obnoxious debate.
Yeah, I find him—
but it's because he's very good at debate, and it's allowed me to kind of like understand some of the strategies that I've done for a long time. And like objection handling is arguing. Yeah. Right? But it's very skillful arguing, you know, 'cause you're trying to change someone's mind. I would argue debate is a lot of the time more theatrical.
Yeah.
So you're not really trying to change their mind. You're trying to own, you're trying to like dunk on them.
Yeah. You're trying to capture the audience, not them.
But like it allowed me to kind of like, he was breaking down like one of the things that I do in objection handling is like you have to define terms very clearly, which is like, it's allowing, it's setting a presupposition, you know? Like, and so I never really thought of it that way, but it's like asking those constant probing statements, you know what I mean? And making someone like accept the definition stops them from doing a conflation fallacy later on. So like I do that stuff and I know why, but I've never like until recently like seen the labels. And sometimes when you can label something, you're able to go, oh, fuck, like that actually makes a ton more sense now. Like I know it, I understand it, but now I can like place it in a little box and explain it way better. So I've been going like deep on, that's where all the Chase Hughes stuff came from. 'Cause I was trying to understand like, 'cause now I'm doing like, I'm doing a lot of coaching at the moment. And so like, how do I better break down, you know, like what's actually happening, but then put it in fucking dumbed-down language. 'Cause if you say presupposition, people's fucking heads explode. So like, you know, a frame, you know, that term, like that's a frame, right? It's just like a scaffolding. So like, that's been actually really fun because like, I just, I fucking, I love that shit. It's so interesting that you can just like, like watching Andrew Wilson debate and like watching him demand people define their terms and then just keep going back and going back.
Their definition.
Yeah. And I always thought it was like, they're like, oh, you're just arguing semantics. And he goes, yeah, but it's a semantic argument.
Yeah.
So it's like, we have to define. So like, I actually find it less obnoxious now because like, I know that without that, people conflate terms immediately because that's like a super easy way to do it. And so like, when I've been like, I've been doing some, you know, I'm doing more sales and stuff like that in Diler and it's allowed me to kind of absolutely fucking just mind meld people, which has been kind of fun. And teaching a lot too. It's been good. I've been enjoying that over the last couple weeks. Doing some content about it.
About teaching?
Yeah, just about like, like sort of defining, because like I came up with a lot of stuff in like the sales industry that I'm in. A lot of the just norms of how it's done was me. Okay. Right? Like how people objection handle is how I objection handle. And I made that up. Right. Like, because like no one really taught it. And so I kind of made it up. So like all the frames that people use and the way that they do it, I, that's all my stuff.
Okay.
Most people don't know that.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a good chunk of people who do, but like you can't own that.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like that objection handling matrix was downloaded like 50, 60,000 times. Right. And it just be kind of permeated. And I watched, I watch all these sales coaches online teach it. And they're teaching it wrong because they don't understand why it's happening. They just understand, they just know what to say.
Yeah, well, follow this bouncing ball without any like actual substrate.
Yeah. So I was like, well, I feel like good content would be like, oh, I'll tell you why it works. And so I was trying to, but I was struggling to like label it in a really good way. Yeah. So it was like, it wasn't coming out properly. So, but after doing all that research, I was like, okay. This is like, it's debate theory. Yeah. That's really what it is. And I did debate club in high school and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Like I love arguing with people. I'll fucking argue about anything, right? You know what I mean? So ask my wife. I'll never shy away from an argument. So, but being able to label that, it's been quite interesting. And so like a lot of the content I've been doing lately has been like, you keep hearing this, but they're, it's like, yes, but no. You know, like, Because if you only learn the word track, it's like a useless skill. Yeah. You know, it's like you're not teaching anyone to fish. Yeah. You know, you're just kind of giving them the fish.
That's kind of what happens a lot with dogs. And like where we saw, I saw this play out heaps of times with the Nipopo schools, right? So if you did a silver and gold school, you're then qualified. It's different now, but back when I did it, you're qualified, you can teach it, right? Like you can run seminars and all kinds of stuff. But he's a great teacher. And so— and he's so charismatic and like people emulate him well.
Sounds like Jeremy.
So people learn all this stuff, they do the course and they can recite it, right? Yeah. But you cannot— like you used to always be able to tell because they would use his mannerisms, which are broken English. Speaks 5 languages, right? So his English is not his first language.
Yeah. Yeah.
So despite his English being perfect, he has some funny quirks.
Yeah.
And when people overuse those quirks, you're like, oh, you don't get it because you're describing it using broken English. Like, it doesn't work. And, and what happened a lot many years ago was people would— they get the info, they teach their first seminar, never again. Because someone goes, hey, I don't get it, can you? And they can't, like, because they just know—
I just fucking— this way.
Yeah, I just know how to describe it the way it was described to me, and I can do it. Some of them are really good trainers, right? Like, some of them are actually good at the doing. But the follow-up questions just destroyed him.
But the problem is you're only good at the doing, and like, I could be wrong in this, but in very particular circumstances. Yeah. Because if you don't have like that foundational, if you can't explain something simply, you don't really understand it. Yeah. And then like for you, like I think it's probably very similar. Like you're trying to get to a place and there are 10 ways to get there, but you've got to kind of, what are the ways that we can get there here?
Yeah.
But if you like, if all you know is one path, then you just know a path. You're like, you're not actually navigating there. You're just kind of like following the bouncing ball. And so what I find with people is like, they know all the word tracks of what to say. They just, when someone gives them an odd answer, they have no idea what to do. And everything falls apart, which I'm assuming is like the dog does something weird and they go, but Bard didn't tell me how to fix that. Like what's going on. But I think a lot of that, it's not really like the guru's fault. It's a lack of good questions. And it's like, okay, write that down. I say this. And that's just like a lack of critical thinking.
But I think part of that has to do with the word you just used, right? The guru. Because most people, like when there is the guru, people just think like the sun shines out of their ass and they don't ask them follow-up questions. They're just like, oh right, you said it, it's true. And like, yeah, they said it like that today in this moment. Like, the people who are good teachers can explain it 15 different ways. You heard it that way. That doesn't mean that way is the gospel. That's just the way that fit today. And so tomorrow it might be explained completely different to a different person. And I've seen that, right? Like people having an argument over my guy says this or my same guy says this other thing. And it's like, It's the problems. Yeah, like, it'd be telling me the same thing, different time, different feel. Yeah, you know, and like, you know yourself, you do stuff some way. Sometimes you get stuck in habits. Like, it's really easy. Like, that's one of the reasons why I like getting other good trainers in, other decoys that come in and work dogs, because you see them do stuff and you're like, oh, I know how to do that, why don't I do that?
Yeah, because you just forgot. You forget that you know it.
Yeah, or like, you just get into like I was explaining this this morning, or yesterday as well. Like, I think we take for granted how hard it is to think. Like, you're on autopilot 99% of the time. Like, when you actually have to go, oh, okay, fuck, like, new data, gotta process that, put that in, form an opinion about this, and decide on a way forward— when you do that, you're like, oh, I'm exhausted. Like, after 2 minutes thinking. Whereas like, you know, I spoke yesterday, I presented a seminar for biosecurity dog handlers. I even said to them, I am on autopilot. I have done this seminar so many times, like, only when one of you asked me a really tricky peculiar question will I actually be present here. Yeah, right, like, yeah, like I'm at home playing PlayStation. Yeah, like mentally I can be anywhere in the world. My body knows how to do this. I don't need to think. I know how to do this. I've done it that many times. And over Overwhelmingly, that's what happens when you actually have to go like, oh, I've got it, I've got to think. It's exhausting.
Have you ever had a student that's like elevated your understanding of your own shit?
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's how I did it. Like when I first started teaching, I don't know if I ever told you, like that those Nepopo schools, um, Bart got really sick. So, so he, he taught a school in Melbourne and he, he was kind of sick at the back end of it and we came up to Sydney and it was for the army. And he was sick. Like, he had, uh, like, probably just a flu, but AIDS or something. It was probably just a real flu. It was pre-COVID, so, you know, but the flu is horrific. Yeah. So he's teaching, he's got a mad temperature, and like at lunchtime on the first day, he just starts speaking Flemish. Like, just falls out of English into Flemish. And I had to like go over and say, I was like, but you're not speaking English. And he's like, like, fuck. Like, because he's just putting in the work. Like, he's not— like, there's no way he's quitting. I was like, You need to sit down. You're fucking in bad shape, mate. So I was like, fuck, I'll just do it. And then that was his worst day. Like, that was the peak of his sickness. And so the next day he was like, I want you to do it again and kind of watched me. And I honestly felt like in the understanding of his method, it couldn't have worked out any better because I'm teaching it in a permissive environment. It was an army one. It was, it was two commando guys. So they, they were not going to fuck me around. With him observing it. Doesn't get any better to learn. And what I truly felt it like, I could feel it in my head. It felt like I had— I was playing Tetris and I had all these like pieces and I had all these holes and I just immediately whilst I was expressing it like this was happening at some subconscious level behind my conscious level.
You think and speak in real time. Yeah. You don't.
So I could feel those pieces going into place. And I was like, as I was talking them into place to the group of people. And then afterwards I was like, oh, I understand it much better now.
That's not kung fu.
Yeah. But that's what I constantly am saying to people. Like, teach. Like, if you're confused, teach it to someone. Yeah. Yeah.
And it's so much easier. Preferably someone outside the sphere.
Yeah, who has no idea. So you have to give them the whole foundation.
You have to give them all the context. Yeah, no, like ask questions, you know?
Yeah.
Like, do you understand it? I tell people to do that with their script. Be like, 'cause you can ask one thing one way, you say the same thing different ways and you get different answers, right? So I was like, but don't ask a sales guy 'cause like they know what you're doing.
Yeah, yeah.
So like they know what you're doing and they know what you're trying to do and then they're just gonna naturally bias towards helping you out with that. Yeah. But it's like what you want is like go ask your missus. It's like, hey, bias it this way. What would you say?
Yeah, yeah.
I did that with Samuel all the time when I was writing like my first sort of like proper script. I was like, "Like, if I said this, what would you say?" And I'm like, "Interesting." Like, interesting. That's a weird answer. She's like, "I don't know how to answer that." And I was like, "Interesting." She was like, "I'm just asking a vague question so you get a vague answer," you know? And you can be super precise. I really like educating. I think it's fun. I also think it keeps your brain juices going. One of the best things is like when you know you have someone who's a little bit stupid, Okay.
And then you have to kind of go like, yeah, how do I get this to you?
Yeah. And it allows me to practice like silence. So like they'll go, how do I do this? And I'll go like, I'll take a minute. Yeah. Of straight up like—
Jordan Peterson's a master at that. Hey.
Yeah.
Is there when people ask him questions and he like, like you can see he's actually thinking about it.
Yeah. Like, okay. And I'll just sit there for a while and go, this? Because like, I'm just trying to compute how do I put this in a realm this person understands. Yeah. And it's like, you know, if a fucking— like, we had, uh, my, my wife's cousin is in town and he worked at CERN. He, he is a quantum—
so it's his fault that— yeah, we're in the mandala effect.
Yeah. He now works in Singapore. He is a legitimate fucking like high-level quantum physicist. Okay, right.
And I was like, be careful, he could disappear at any minute.
Yeah, I was like, yeah, I know, right? So I was like, you know, and like, I was like, so how's it work, right? You know, it's just like quantum physics. My friend said if it can't be expressed as a cube, it's not quantum. You know, fucking Seth? I was like, yep. I'm not a dumb dumb, but like, it's just very peculiar, sort of borderline nonsensical, you know, things. And so like, you know, it was like, and he's quite well-practiced at like talking dumb dumb with that stuff. So he had like a good little spiel, but it was interesting. Like, you know, obviously you have to simplify it so much, it basically becomes incorrect, right? You know? And he's like, this is wrong. But it works.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cool, man.
Thank you. This is the best I can do for you.
Yeah, exactly. And she's gonna spend the next 6 years trying to figure this shit out. Like, don't even bother. I remember we went to dinner the other day with Sep and he was like all excited and he was like writing shit down 'cause he's doing quantum entanglement.
Yeah.
And I was like, just seems like witchcraft.
Spooky action at a distance. Yeah. Like that's literally what Einstein called it. Spooky action. Spooky action at a distance.
And he was like, uh, and his thing was like, if it can't be expressed as a cube, it's not—
as a cube or a qubit? Cube. Okay.
Like, I, I don't get it either. Yeah, don't worry about it, it's not gonna matter. You know what's up? Good for you, buddy. Yeah, good for you. So he seems to be really into it. Yeah, he's doing his PhD in it. Yeah, he refuses to leave university.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, for the young man's doing school.
The quantum computing stuff terrifies me and I can't help but notice as we're bringing on quantum computing and they're turning them on variously, we're having all this talk about time travel that they don't know how it computes. They think it might be multiple dimensions across multiple times. And now there's all this weird time travel shit going on.
Did you look into the Montauk Project?
The Montauk Project?
Montauk? No, the time travel project.
No, tell me about that.
Oh, it's pretty dark. We'll go into it. So, uh, Montauk Project was a government project in like, I think it was the '70s and early '80s in Montauk, uh, New York. All right, now this is where it gets weird. There's a chair called the Montauk Chair. Okay, right, and that's the time travel chair. Yeah, uh, you— it will go into different time lines, right? And that's where they think they got some technology. Yeah, but you can only send kids because it scrambles adults' brains. They don't have the plasticity.
Okay.
And the way that you unlock the portals is not super pleasant.
Okay, we'll keep it.
Yeah, you can Google it if you want. It's very unpleasant. Yeah. Um, they've got some victims of the motoc chair that they've interviewed. They all completely independently drew the exact same chair. Yeah. They're like, draw this chair. Kind of looks like the Game of Thrones throne.
Okay.
Right? And they would send them out to go and grab like things from different timelines. Then they would come back and get different technologies and shit like that. They would have to open this portal through like their like psychic energy.
Yeah.
And they had to sort of do things to the kids in order to get them to open it. Pretty dark.
What do you think about time travel?
It's very Kabbalistic. Yeah. Um, Matt, don't think about it an awful lot.
It's possible.
Uh, I don't see why not.
Yeah, but so like, do you think that like—
the problem is, right, like you're, you're given frames of reference according— like I watched this Wes Huff thing the other day, right? And it was a really interesting premise. And it was like, all of your descriptions are based off your premises and experience. So like, we see a thing floating in the sky and we go, that's a UFO. Yeah, right. The guy from the other centuries go, that's— oh, I never thought I'd see a cherub in my lifetime.
Yeah, yeah.
Because cherubim are described as an eye.
Yeah, yeah.
With wings covered in rotating spheres.
Yeah, yeah.
Probably glowing.
Yeah.
That looks like the fucking UFO.
Yeah.
I don't— I think like both things can be true. Yeah, yeah. Right. Do you know what I mean? But it is a good point. Like, I would never think, oh, look, a cherubim. Yeah. I would think a UFO. Yeah. You know what I mean? When I think time travel, I think there's rules of time travel because of movies.
Yeah, yeah.
None of which I think are grounded in any level of science. Like, oh, you can't do this.
Like, I don't— Yeah. Well, they don't know.
They've never done it, so how can we know?
Yeah. They don't know. I think that generally you could put time travel into kind of 3 categories of what people think might happen. One is block universe where you can't change anything because if you were going to, you have. Because if you can go forward, you can go back.
Makes total sense.
That's kind of where I'm at. But all of them carry—
It's already happened.
Yeah, but all of them carry some side effects that you have to deal with, right? So if there's a block universe where you can't change time, then you also have no free will, right? Like that, because if you can go to a future that is determined, then you don't get to make decisions along the way. Those decisions are pre-made. Right. So that's the sort of, uh, I don't like that. And then there's like, yep, you could travel back in time and change things. Uh, that then sort of indicates that you branch timelines, right? Yeah. And then, then there's multiverse, right? So then it's like, well, there's branch timelines, uh, that, that feeds into the multiverse theory. And the people that are into multiverse, they think that like that the multiverse, every decision point creates a new one. It's too messy. And they think that happens on the Planck scale. So that's 40 billion times a second, right? So like, yeah. So that— I heard it best explained the other day by Julian Mossbridge, who said it's unparsimonious. Like, it's too messy. Like, things that work are clean, you know? Like, you— it clean and simple.
The universe is beautifully—
yeah, everything just works. And so to have a new entirely thing every 40 billion times a second, like Where is it going?
Yeah, like, what's happening here?
It's just too messy. It's too messy. So like that everywhere, everything— Everything Everywhere All at Once. Yeah, have you seen that movie?
No.
So that, that's pretty cool. Like, but that world I don't believe in. Everything Everywhere All at Once is, um, a woman and a series of characters that are able to— once you connect with a version of yourself in another timeline, in another multiverse, you can do the things that person can do. So like there's some crazy multiverses out there. Not the prototype shit.
Yeah.
So you sort of have the knowledge of every version of you and the knowledge and capability. That's the Kang. Of every version of you in the multiverse. Yeah. Which would be cool, but I'm not into it. I think the block universe one is probably the most likely. And I think that works because time isn't what we sort of imagine it to be because like—
It's different in different parts of space.
That's right, so—
Gravity dependent.
That's right, so the block universe is almost provable in saying that the observer to this conversation is happening in the future to some observers and in the past to others.
Well, have you ever seen where if you're looking at Andromeda, 'cause you can see it, right? And you, one person's walking, and one person's static, and they— the exact same point, like, look up at it, they're looking at Andromeda like 2.5 million years apart.
Wow.
Because one's moving.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when you're moving, your perception of time is different.
Yeah.
And because it's so far away—
yeah.
And so you looking at the exact same thing, you're literally seeing it 2.5 million years apart.
Yeah.
Fucking crazy. Yeah. And so, like, That's time travel.
Yeah. Yeah, exactly right.
If you were to stop, you'd immediately be looking at it 2.5 million years in the future.
Yeah, that's right. So that kind of then makes me feel like the block universe is probably the way it works.
Yeah.
But then the implication is you have no free will.
I mean, according to the Bible, everything you ever do is written down before you're born.
There you go.
You know, everything you're going to do is written down.
Yeah. Probably a way to think about it.
Free will is a weird one because it's like, what is it? Yeah, it's like, it's like, what even is it? It's like I have a choice, but it's like you have it, you know what I mean? Yeah.
So there's this guy, there's this guy, Robert Sapolsky. Robert Sapolsky is a neuroscientist, big name in that space. A lot of the science—
Probably not literally though, but there's some long names. Yeah, for sure.
But Sapolsky is in the dog space. He's one of our guys, right? Like, he's important to us. A lot of what we do sort of comes from him. He's got a book called Behave that's impossible to read. Like, I tried. I'm too stupid. I can't get through it. But we quote Sapolsky a lot.
It's like Maps of Meaning.
Do you ever try to read that? Yeah, you must try to audiobook it. Couldn't do it.
Yeah.
Good. But so Sapolsky, he's our guy. Everyone's like, you know, you got to read Behave, struggle your way through it. It explains how the brain works and all this stuff. Stuff and it's really relevant to us. And then he brought out this book called Determined and he's a determinist. He's like, no, there's no free will. Like everything is determined and here's the science of why that is. And so like, I don't like that. That makes me feel very uncomfortable because it's like, well, what's the point, right? Like I get it and you work through it and you got to just keep driving. But when I first heard that, I was like, fuck you, Robert Sapolsky, you betrayed me. I've been quoting you for years. I've been saying everything you say is right. And now you release this bullshit, you fucking liar.
He knew you were going to say that. I had no choice. I had to.
It's not my fault. But that's the issue with no free will is it like for many people, it just absolves them of their shitty actions. You know what I mean? And so they're like, oh, well, fuck.
I also don't even really know what it means. I don't think anyone really knows what it means. It's like, because you might have, there might be parameters of decisions in which, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like, so there's bumper rails. Yeah. You know what I mean? And you can go anywhere in the bumper. Yeah. Because like that would still be a big combination, right? Yeah, yeah. Like the endpoint is like a spectrum and you're going to fit within the spectrum.
Yeah.
Yeah. You know, and it's like, but there's a lot of different micro decisions.
Yeah, yeah.
Like along the way.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Like that could be made, but they don't essentially make much of a difference. Yeah. But it's not a fully defined point.
Yeah, so I think.
You know what I mean?
That fits into the idea of the block universe universe has key markers.
Yeah.
So there are certain things that are going to happen and they have to happen.
Like, I was always going to get big-ass dick back pain.
There's no way out. There's no way out. There's no way out.
I was gonna say, it was a suffering point.
They're probably like big world events that are gonna happen. You can't stop them. But the micro doesn't matter as much. Yeah. Like, the micro in so much only matters towards the macro type shit effect.
Yeah. You know. Makes a thing in Japan, it's like, ah, whatever.
Nothing meaningful. Nothing meaningful changes. Yeah, like it might be extremely meaningful to you, but not to the big picture. Nothing meaningful changes.
That's kind of how life is as well. Like the minutia of things, like, ah, you know what I mean? Like it doesn't really change the big factors. Like a lot of little things can stack up, but like they would stack up regardless. You know what I mean? Like 1,000 Jenga pieces is about the same height as 990. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's still a big-ass fucking piece of Jenga, you know what I mean? So yeah, you know, it was interesting. Was it you that was telling me like the 1 1? Yeah, yeah, like 2 lasagnas.
That blew my mind. And so this was in relation to happiness. And so this blew my mind. Mind you, I was full of Daddy's special medicine, right? And so Rip City's drum lessons I'm full. I'm high as fuck, right? By accident, like significantly overshot it, right? So I'm sitting there, I'm eating ice cream because that's what you do. I'm listening to this reel and it was this lady who was a happiness expert. I didn't even get her name. She just, she works at Harvard or somewhere. And she said that one of the key steps to happiness is knowing that you cannot be certain about anything.
Yeah, yeah, that's what it was. I'm trying to think of what the context was.
Yeah, that's the point. My point is that you cannot be certain about anything. And she then goes like, mostly we agree that 1 1 is 2, right? You feel pretty certain about that? So the guy's talking, he's like, yeah. He goes, okay, well, that's true in base 10 maths, right? But in base 12 maths, 1 1 is 10, right? Okay, but let's leave that out. Let's never mind that. Let's just stay with base 12, base 10. You've got one lasagna and one lasagna. Put those together, you just have one really big lasagna. Yeah, yeah. But pizzas, you get one pizza plus another pizza, put those together, that's two pizzas. It is. Yet clouds. Yeah, yeah. Clouds. One cloud plus one cloud is still just one cloud. Yeah. So it was just her way of explaining you can't be sure about anything. And all the things that you are like, no, no, that's the case, is like, maybe not. And under certain circumstances, it's pretty freeing.
I like that. I think like, you know, if we take it back to like sales coaching, like a lot of the stuff that I teach is like, guys, just keep it simple. You know, it's a really interesting habit that sales reps have is like they'll add qualifiers and modifiers to things like, oh, Pat, so when you said this, like, what did you mean? Instead of going like, what do you mean? You know what I mean?
And a lot of extra words.
A lot of extra words, word salad, you know? I was like, would you ever go, hey Pat, when you said you wanted a hamburger, like what type of hamburger would you like? Like if you went out to dinner with someone, you'd be like, what the fuck?
Yeah, why are you saying that?
Are you retarded? Like what the fuck's happening here? And so like when I tell people like, guys, just like there is no like right way of doing this.
Yeah.
So by you emulating, like say Jeremy online, people do it all the time. Jeremy is a brilliant salesperson. Like he's the best I've ever experienced. Scene, right? Um, but like, he has particular mannerisms and way of doing things that he is good enough to get away with, right? Like that. But you should take the teachings, not replicate that human, because he's an individual, right? So he's got quirks and nuances and stuff like that. Like, like, I can't get away with talking like he does. Is that having an impact on you? Like, it just sounds gay. So tell me. Yeah. Do you like not being successful? Like, he says some wild shit, but somehow it just kind of pulls it off. You know what I mean? And so, like, when I'm just teaching people, like, guys, there's no right or wrong. Like, Cardone's way is awesome. It works. You can do Jeremy's way. You could do, like, mine is, like, just a bit of a hybrid mess of everything because, like, it's just a series of things that I think works, you know? And I was like, you can do anything in any way. And as long as it's done well, it will be completely serviceable and fine. But just as a baseline level, just keep it super simple. But like, there is no correct. Yeah. You just have to realize that and just like let go of like, oh, that's wrong. And if you do come across someone who's saying that's incorrect, it's like, yeah, but. Yeah. And that's always the answer. And one of the things that I tell people is like, okay, what's the fastest way to get around a running track? And they go, run. I go, yeah, but I have a car. Like, oh, then drive. And it's like, okay, so what's the fastest way to get around a track? They're like, you know, I go, say I don't have a car. They go, run. I go, yeah, I don't have any legs though. It's like, what if I'm a baby? What if I can't walk? Like, there's so much context. So like, the fastest way to get around a track for a baby is to crawl. Yeah. The fastest way for a runner is to run. The fastest way for fucking in a wheelchair is in a wheelchair. Like, yeah, it's just that mechanism. And so you go like, all those answers are 100% correct and they're also all wrong.
Yeah, they're contextually correct.
And so you can't be certain of any of it. So you, you like, don't get so attached to one particular way of doing things. Yeah, it just doesn't work. And that's the same for fucking everything. Yeah, it goes like, I thought it was such a brilliant example of like, yeah, but two lasagnas, it's like, oh yeah, yeah, fucking one big lasagna.
One big lasagna, but two pizzas is two pizzas.
Yeah, it really is like, so the answer is like yes, but sometimes no.
Yeah.
It's always that way. I think like understanding that, it really is, it makes you very, it makes you much happier. Yeah.
And it goes the other way as well. So have you ever seen like the deconstruction of an item? Like you get a pen, right? And take its lid off. Is it still a pen?
Yeah, but do you know like the ship? There's a famous ship that gets rebuilt.
The Theseus, the ship.
Yeah. And it's like, is it still the ship?
Yeah. So it's Theseus's ship. So it's a thought experiment in that Theseus's ship carries the souls of the dead. It's magic ship, but ships wear out and parts have to be replaced. So at what point is it no longer the magic ship? Yeah. Like how? Like because— and my favorite endpoint of that conversation is like, okay, but if I kept all the parts that I've replaced and I put them together, do I have two magic ships now?
Yeah.
Like Where is the magic? Yeah, where's the one? Like, where is it?
What's that? In The Office, uh, there's like a back and forth between Jim and Dwight. Me and Sammy do it all the time, right? And then he goes like, um, I can't remember the, the full thing, but it's sort of like, um, like, I'm gonna wait about a, about a month to do it. Oh, so 30 days? Yeah. And he goes, would you wait 31? And he goes like, I could see that happening. He goes, 32? Like that just keeps going. And it's like, what's the cutoff? Yeah, yeah. You know, it's actually really, you ever watch like abortion debates?
Yeah.
Right?
That's where that.
And it goes, okay, so what's the line? And they go like, 9 weeks. And you go, what about 8 weeks and 6 days?
Yeah, yeah.
It's like, when are you deciding when you can kill the baby. Yeah, yeah, you know, like, what's your line? Yeah, you just say that, you go, okay, what about the day before?
Yeah, well, I mean, sure, you had that conversation sitting around in the army, you know, where it's like, would you suck someone's dick for a million dollars? Yeah, yeah, it's like, yeah, about $999,000. Like, that's the same conversation.
Shockingly low. Yeah, someone comes in, I'd do it for 50 grand.
Yeah, no, I'm I've seen it get pretty light. And someone be like, what the fuck? I'm not gonna work here.
You think I'm a faggot? I'll suck a dick. You want to tell that story? That's the best story ever. So much of a faggot, you couldn't even suck a dick. It's the greatest end of a story ever. Maybe for another day.
Yeah, that's worth its own.
That is a fucking That is a good one. Ah, man. That got me. I think we're done. I say goodbye.
Goodbye.
