How to Achieve Sales Savagery as a Team - Team Development Hacks

We've got another episode of Coffee is for closes here today. It's just James. We have Matt absent as he's taking some needed time off for holiday with the family. But we've brought on a special guest, Charlie Vella from Vella Media, who is an expert in, I guess, all things media. And as a little known fact, Charlie is the one responsible for producing, creating our entire podcast and all the media that we do. And I assume by listening to this you like his work. So we'll have a link to his bio in the description. But Charlie, maybe you'd like to give a little bit of an introduction about yourself and specifically why we decided to bring you on today.

Hey James, thanks for having me. It's my absolute pleasure to be here. Jesus. Well, this is, I suppose we'll call it an interesting story. I got an introduction to Matt, your co host, quite a while ago now and he was talking about this like YouTube stuff and this media stuff and these podcasts and, and you could see he had an angst to get into it. Like this is something he has a huge amount of passion and drive for. And since then I'd like to think we've become good acquaintances and friends along the journey, but diving down into this podcast stuff and supporting yourself with it as well. So context is me, my team work a lot behind the scenes to put this all together, all the clips and episodes people see published and recorded and then why I'm here today. While working with people, you're not really necessarily just judging them on today, but very focused on what their future is going to be like with your organization. And I find that fascinating because it's something that I've often thought of a lot of myself and I'm very aligned in that view. But I'd love to hear it from your perspective. Why have you put so much focus into individual development and why do you see this as an important topic?

We, we take on a lot of people that are quite junior levels, right. And it allows us to provide opportunity to those people and watch the journey of coming new into the industry and getting to a level where they are world class. And for us, like one, it's easier to recruit people at that level than it is to find good people that already have very high wages and it is competitive. But there's also some sort of, I guess what the right word is personal enjoyment with that. And watching someone get from X to A is a very, very rewarding journey. And we hire based on culture, right. So if somebody is a cultural fit for Us, we do everything that we can in our power to get them to a level where they can do their job in the best possible way, in the most ethical way and in the shortest period of time. And by attracting people with the right values and standards that we share here at Sales Sniper makes that journey very, very easy to do. Because it's harder to develop someone to have the right decision making ability, the right thought process and the right standards that we uphold. Whereas if we can have that from people that match, I guess our ideologies around that early on, it's very easy to develop them into salespeople because that's a much easier skill to attain. Particularly when you have a very standard process of, of how to go about fixing, identifying areas that need to be worked on and the correct training. So I guess it's a combination of, you know, one satisfaction and the easier long term solution that is more sustainable for us as a company.

That's really interesting that fulfillment piece. I'm just wondering from your own experience, have you found that the people you've put some training and effort in towards have stayed with you longer as well? Do you, do you find there's a fit in reduction of churn?

Yeah, absolutely. So we've had probably like three people leave over the last 12 months that I would consider culturally appropriate. One was very, very mutual ending on terms mostly because they got offered a significant equity share to go back to the company that they worked for, that we said you'd be stupid not to take it. And we still keep in contact and we still do business with them. The other one was we take on a lot of people part time and they get quite good and if they have opportunities come up elsewhere in life for like investments or whatnot, that they have previous existing and it makes sense that there's a very good opportunity for them to spend time on rather than developing its sales, then that's the best thing for, for that person as an individual. And you know, I'm happy if we develop someone to that level and they leave because I know I've done my job. It's just our job to keep the culture so well that people choose not to because they want to be here. So I'd say there's like two or three people that have left over the last 12 months outside of people just not, you know, us setting KPIs and people not being able to hit them long term where it's clear that maybe this isn't the best long term career path for them.

When you bring someone new into your organization. Let's say you've brought on a junior role and you can see this as someone that's hungry to climb the ranks and prove themselves as a salesperson at some point. In this example, do you find that they're hungry for feedback and individual, I suppose, development themselves, or is that something you find you're more, I don't want to say putting towards them or posing to them, but I guess I'm kind of striking the idea. Are they hungry to be developed or are they kind of you forging that path for them in the community?

We've already set like a pretty large, I guess, perception of what the standards and values that we have here. And we seem to now, because that's very public and it's really funny. I had a conversation with James Canton about this, who I think is a mutual client of yours as well. Because that's out there in the public of what we want and what we look for and what we stand for. We tend now to only attract people with those same qualities and standards because they want to come to us knowing that we have that in place and we will hold them to a higher level of standards than that you'd get in most workplaces. And people that usually aren't don't want that level of, you know, a bit of bit of push and don't want to be held as accountable to their actions tend to not apply because they're worried that they can't cope with it or weed it out very quickly through interview process. So right now we attract people with the right standards and values that we want. So it's very, very easy to plug and play and then just work on what are the individual things that they need. Let's get an idea of what their goals are, where they want to be in three months, where they want to be in three years, and then provide a very transparent plan of attainment together that usually works. It's like, okay, well, you want to be here in X period of time and your goal is to get either good at sales or make X amount of income. It's like we're going to start you in the lowest possible position. The pay is going to be poor, it's going to be a tough job. But that needs to happen in order for us to justify handing you off a bunch of leads.

Right?

You need to be doing a good enough job and know that those leads are going to be served at the level that we require as a company. So we have that conversation, like I tell you what, you know, you're going to start appointment setting. If you do, if you hit these KPIs and you're doing all the role plays and we have good enough feedback that on those role plays, you're ready for a sales call. Then we will start you off with a small amount of possible triage calls or maybe some cold calling. Then we'll set you specific KPIs with those. You hit those KPIs then. Brilliant. We will allow you to sell low ticket items, we'll set some KPIs there. From there you hit those, but not just once, like consistently over a period of time. Then we will then allow you to sell high ticket items. And that way it's super transparent. Like this is your pathway. In order to get to this promotional to this level, you need to do xyz. So it's on you to achieve that. Because we work in a pure meritocracy, right? You do good, you get rewarded, you don't achieve, then there is no justification for you to go to that next level. And that way the onus is on that person to make that happen themselves. And whatever that they need to achieve and whatever strategy that they need to implement, they are the only ones responsible for them. But our responsibility lies on providing them the resources and infrastructure as well as those KPIs required to get to that next level and achieve that. So we'll put in the planners. Like for instance, we got a sales guy. They might be really bad with tonality. It's like, okay, well it's my job to teach you how to get good at tonality. But it's your job to take that strategy and apply it every single day to you good enough to move forward. And that's where we draw the lines. Like, I'll give you what you need, provided you do it and you fulfill on that. And if you don't fulfill on that, then we need to have a separate conversation which is not about a promotion. It's about maybe stepping back or maybe you're not ready for this. And if that is the case, then this is what your job is for the next three months. Now, if that isn't in line with your career path, then maybe we need to look at doing something different. We can find another role for you in the organization, provide you a cultural fit. That's usually the way that we look at it and go about that in terms of those processes.

It's really interesting. In my own experience, I suppose I've been a part of two different organizations well before having my own Business. And number one is I remember being in an organization where it's like they had KPIs but no infrastructure. So it was almost like it was onto your own devices to work out how to hit the KPIs. And I will admit there was some great thinking that went into this, but I never hit the KPIs for that reason. It was just always like there was no clear path on how to do it. And then I suppose secondly to that, I've been in organizations where there is no development path and I saw how destructive that was for the organization. But I'm curious to lean into this a little bit more. Where did your hunger for having this type of thing come into place? Like, is this from bad experiences of your own? Is this through boiler rooms? Like, how has this become the thing that you're really keen on doing?

Okay, good question. So I've had very positive experiences and very negative experience with, with KPIs and development. I've been in organizations that left nothing for you to do and didn't help whatsoever. I've been in organizations that did incredible jobs at that. And it was always easier, far easier to achieve success and then get congruent in day to day life in the organizations where they had those set standards and fully transparent pathways to get to where you want to be. And I'd say like on a behavioral psychology level is it's because there are steps to achieve, right? When you have those steps to achieve, you have clear guidelines and pathways to get to where you want to be and then it's all on you to take action. And I'll give you example of where that comes from. So I was lucky enough in a previous life to to be involved in high performance and athletes. I did a lot of work there, particularly around some rugby league clubs here in Australia. For the guys that don't know, we have many different sports here in Australia since most of our audience is from the US But I guess I was involved with an organization that was, you know, the equivalent of like the LA Lakers in here, Melbourne Storm. And they had a player there, Cameron Smith, who's the equivalent of the Tom Brady of the NFL. They had brilliant value standards in the way that they drove everything within that organization. And the same thing like we treat our salespeople as if they're elite athletes because there is so much in common that people go through slumps. We need ways to get them out of slumps, we need ways to prevent slumps, et cetera, et cetera. And it's the Same meritocracy. So you don't, you know, come into a team because you were a very good, say, schoolboys player and then they're going to put you in the first grade team. There is that pathway. It's like, okay, well, you know, we're going to have you playing, just coming up on a train and trial, you know, we'll see how you go. That if you do really well, we might let you play with reserve grade. Okay. Now, if you hit these KPIs of, you know, tackles, missed meters, tries, whatever scoring system that is, then you're now in a position where we can put you into the first grade side, but we can't put you in there if you have too many missed tackles, if you let in too many tries.

Right.

And it's the same thing with our sales call. So I really developed a lot based around that system. And they're known as one of the best systems in the world for development, where they take on a lot of players that come from average players at other clubs and turn them into superstars. That's kind of what they're known for. So there's usually a lot of success there. And copying those success metrics seem to work very, very well when we take back that whole mindset of treating people like elite athletes to our salespeople.

Yeah. It astounds me to this day how much crossover there is from sporting organizations.

Crazy.

Yeah. And just how many people especially. And I, I say this in a way that's like, I know people that say they're well into their 50s and they appear to be these business tyrants, but it's actually they were like elite athletes in their 20s and it's like that has never left them.

Yes. It's. The gap is bridging in the way that we, we treat people for elite performance because at the end of the day, like, we're trying to make elite performance. When we turn our guys into elite performers, they make themselves more money, they make us more money, their happiness goes through the roof. Therefore, they're more likely to stay with us and continue to make a whole bunch of money and feel like they're achieving their life goals. Because, you know, once we hit a certain level, it's like, okay, great, so where do we go from here? Let's give you a pathway. This is what you need to do in order to justify achieving that next level, which could be management, it could be account management. Could be what, whatever that looks like.

Right?

Completely. So, I mean, I want to dig into, like, what does it actually look like to go through an individual management process and work with you guys. And I'm sure there's some variations out there, but I know you've built something around this. So what does it look like if you've hired that junior person and you're now developing them, what's the process for making that I suppose a reality?

Yeah. So the first step is like our guys, they go through onboarding and then at the conclusion of each of that onboarding, everybody has a one on one with me.

Right.

And that's for me to set those standards and be transparent and flight. Okay, everyone does like a one on one with me and in that we, we be fully transparent and you know, run them through how our organization works, you know, what you get rewarded for, what you get disincentivized for, etc. Etc. What we value and more importantly the expectations that we will hold you to.

Right.

So we have that conversation as well as get an idea of where they want to be in the short term. Then with that we discuss a bit of a pathway of what they need to achieve that. And the conversation ends with me asking them, okay, so if you want to get to there like what is it that you need from me or from our organization to provide you so that you can do that? Then once we've outlined that it's like okay, we've got got a good idea where people want to be. We do a lot of goal setting stuff where we have everyone set a development goal, we set a health goal and we set a financial goal.

Right.

And then you know, if someone comes to us in debt, we set them up with you know, budgeting and stuff like that from a financial professional that will allow them to get that stuff going on a bit better because we don't need that additional stress. And if we can take that stress away by putting plan in place, then we're moving towards where we want to be. And then that removes stress and allows congruency to increase.

Right.

Which and I'll go into a bit later like why that concurrency is, is so important for us. But we aim to put so many development markers into our guys so that they are living a life of congruency. Because when they are that comes through on the sales calls. I call that like the three C's one of our guys. Bill, if you're, you're watching this, put up a video of the three Cs in, in the closing code group the other week. The link will be there in the description but his, his three C'S were very different from mine. So mine is step one is like congruency. It's important to live our life in congruency. So you can't be an overweight guy selling fitness because you're just not going to do a very good job at it. You can't be a broke person selling finance because it comes across disingenuous to the person on the other end of the phone or the other end of the video call. You know, it's like how can you convince me to do this if you're not able to convince yourself? And so we teach our guys to get super congruent with all aspects of their life because a lot of the time the biggest objection that we get in sales calls is the one that we give ourselves. So you know, if you're not willing to buy a product, how are you going to sell it? You don't understand the pain points, you don't understand where the objections stem from. And that congruency leads to like the second C which is conviction, right? When you are fully congruent and you're on board with every word that you're saying, you tend to say that with a level of conviction that makes people buy into your self belief on one, the product that you're selling and to your ability to deliver for them, right? And then conviction leads to the third C which is consistency. Consistency being so important because with sales guys we tend to go through ups and downs based on leads. Some months we have a really good month followed by the lowest month ever. And that makes it very hard to plan out your life. Get bank loans for a house, do everything. If you have huge dips and peaks and troughs in one, your income but your perception of your success, right? So when you congruent and you speak with conviction, you tend to make far more sales and you it elicits a level of consistency that's far more consistent for lack of better, better words. And when we have consistency we know that, okay, great, like with this certain amount of leads based on my close rate, based on how hard I follow up people to book my own appointments, I know that if I have this same 20 calls every week that I'm going to make anywhere from 12 to 15 sales consistently. And then we can plan for that, we can adjust if lead volume goes down, we can put in different strategies to get more calls. But it's much easier and far less stressful on a day to day basis if we have that level of consistency through our lives because it just far greater enable success and Allows us to put more development tools in place. So that's important. And I've kind of sidetracked from the original question, so maybe I answer that, ask that again.

I didn't want to cut it off, though, because I'm in complete agreeance of this. And it's fascinating to me. It's like I've been on sales calls where someone's trying to sell me something, and you can tell there's a desperation in their voice.

Oh, yeah.

And it's like, it's.

Right.

Yeah. But it's not even the words they use. Right. It's like, within the context of the conversation. So if that person's desperate for money is, like, the only reason they're selling is because they want money for them. And you can really feel that. And I'm sure you have more experience and understanding of why that is than I do. But it's something I think many of us have experienced. And it's like, if you only had people that were in that integrity selling from that position, it changes the whole game. But I'd even like to ask a deeper question here before we go back. This is something that I'm curious about from your perspective. I know many salespeople, like, work alone and some even from home, so they're in their own island or they're the only salesperson within an organization. When we start hearing about this, though, do you think there's a distinct advantage in being part of a group or a company like yours, where when you're a part of something, you almost mold to the average within that rather than experiencing that turbulence that would come from these three Cs here if not followed?

Yeah, well, absolutely right. So here's the thing. Like, if you're just working from your home, outside of any organization, then you only have yourself to hold you to the standard that you want. Now, we know, based on human behavior that the regular person is far less likely to achieve success on their own because they have themselves. It means they have to get very honest with themselves as to when and when not they're doing things acceptable in line with the way that goes.

Right.

It's the same as, like, you're trying to eat better. You need someone to hold you accountable. If you're. You're trying to train more, get a gym buddy. It works. And I would say absolutely yes, because we've recognized that. And our culture is. Is set in stone to enable standards to be lifted.

Right.

So if we set the standards here and people come to us and their standards are here because we have such an, you know, one of our values is openness that anybody in our organization has the same level of authority to make demands on standards no matter what. So my assistant can tell Matt, it's like, hey Matt, that's not good enough. It's not what we do here, right? We have a junior sales rep. Maybe someone like Dan could tell Marco, like, hey Marco, like you didn't follow up this person. Like that's not good enough. You know, I'm here trying to book you appointments. Like you've let me down by not following that person up because now I have missed an opportunity, right? And that affects my income and it affects my ability to invest into the level of areas that I want for my long term. And when you have an organization that has that large level of openness, if your standards are here because the set standard is, is up here and everyone around is, is on the train heading in the same direction, then they force you to come up and play at these levels. And when you have other people around you essentially forcing you for lack of better, better terms to reach a higher level, then you're pushed every day to, you know, be that 1% better. You're pushed every day to get to that next level because it is what is required of you in day to day operations. Now if you're someone like Tony Robbins or you know, any, anyone on that boat that can self motivate and you know, I don't even like the term motivation. I had a whole two hour on this the other day. But if you can't get yourself obliged to take action on a day to day basis, then you probably need people around you pulling you up to the level you want to be and holding you accountable to that. Particularly if you have set goals and acknowledge that you need to be at this level in order to achieve them, you better be getting accountability to hold you up to those levels if you aren't capable of reaching them by your own means. And that's why I think having that culture and community has like facilitated our success much quicker. Because everyone is in agreeance and knows the end state for us and more importantly the why we have those standards and values in place. And it's so that we can collectively, you know, rise everyone to the level of, of what their goals expect from them.

Was that a reason you got the office to bring those people into the same room?

Yes and no. Yes, in a point that allows our, our core group, well at least the core group that's here in Australia to be together on a Day to day basis. I honestly thought coming here with like, you know, the pool tables, arcade machines, you know, KO running with the basketball on in the background and we would get less done. But even with having games a pool, we tend to be far more productive because I don't have to make calls. I can walk into someone's office and say, I need this done now. How do I do it? Rather than waiting back on something. Yeah, it's part of the core reason. It was also like the next level of success. Like for the guys who watch the Ryan Sohant podcast, he mentioned something like really important that stuck with me and I've gone out and bought a whole new wardrobe. Well, less, less nice flannel shirts, a lot of Hawaiian shirts just for the fun that like I don't really, really, really care and never had a need to impress anyone.

I tell you what though, that podcast certainly made me reconsider my wardrobe as well. I won't even lie.

And reason being is like, if you want to attract bigger clients, you need a newer level of professionalism that makes you think that they're one of them.

Right.

And we've done very, very well in the coaching consulting where we are able to be us. And I'm a like, if I had choice, I'd wear board shots and thongs every day. But that doesn't really cut it when you're trying to attract multimillion dollar billion dollar clients. We need a higher level of standards there. So, you know, I put it to myself, I'll dress nicer, I'll buy some labels which I previously was very much against them more what looks good and what feels comfortable than that. And a part of the office was doing that to come to that next level of professionalism as well as display ourselves to the same level of professionalism that our results are. So it's really good having like the results, like the consistent results. But if we're still presenting ourselves in a way that isn't giving credence to that level of results, we're probably shooting ourselves in the foot long term and attracting, you know, those bigger players towards our organization. So it was a very, very specific effort to be perceived in a, in a much more successful way than just a bunch of guys sitting in their home offices.

Yeah, I completely get that. Now I will loop back around to individual development because you shared a process with me prior to the call and said, look, let's lean into this. I think there's some value in sharing it. Like I think people that even if they're not a part of the sales sniper organization, which would be useful even for someone themselves trying to do it. So why don't you take us through your five steps here and just elaborate into which each of them of, I suppose, how they're used and why they're important.

It's funny, right? Because once you realize how simple it is to make change and develop, you're just like, why didn't I think of that before? But reality is, it's so straightforward and not complicated, and people try and make things far more complicated than is needed. We have five simple steps now. I'll give examples of how we apply this to actual sales, right? And get better at sales. But this can be applied in any aspect of life. It is very simple. And you know what? Like, this isn't the perfect way. This is something that I've made up to teach myself, and then I've relayed that onto others, refined it, made it better. And I imagine if we redo this podcast in 12 months, it'll be different and. And far more developed. So it's really simple. Like, step one is acknowledgement, right? Now, I change that word quite often. And the reason it's important is, like, you can't change anything that you don't know exists. So awareness, you know, is another word that we use in step one. It's interchangeable, really. And that just comes down to, like, understanding what needs to be worked on. Now, as like, the leadership team, we most of the time point out what that is to our staff, right? And we pick the lowest hanging fruit. And what I mean by that is we'll pick one thing that if they fix that, it will have the greatest impact on their ability to move forward with that, I. E. Sales. So that could be tonality, ability to handle objections. It could be structure, whatever that might be. We'll, like, we'll listen to a call and be like, ah, that's the biggest thing they're doing wrong. Let's fix that. Now the person on the other end, or let's just say little Timmy, comes to us, he gets a job, and Timmy has no structure. He just says whatever comes to mind. He doesn't have a script, right? So, like, I'll recognize that straight away and say, hey, Timmy. Like, I don't know if you're aware of this, buddy, but your structure's a little bit all over the place. Like, we currently, like, we did your call review. We gave you a score of like 10 out of 25, right? For you to get to that next step. Like, I Need that to be at a. An 18. Okay? So I think the biggest way for you to get to that next step is by working on your structure. Okay? So what we're going to do is we're going to build out a script for you and then I'm going to give you some strategies on how to ingrain that into your brain so that even if you lost that script, you'd be able to go through a process, right? To get the response that you need from someone in order to make the sale. Now, he might not have been aware of that. Maybe he was. Okay. And the whole point is to go through this process of development with people to the point that they no longer need me, right? Because I don't want, you know, and I don't have the time anyway to pull out these minor things on a consistent basis with every single one of our stuff. So the whole intention is to teach this process for them so that they can review their own calls and be like, ah, I see where I'm messing up. Then they can ask for some strategy or they can come up with their own strategy and it's really, you know, and I don't have the time anyway to pull out these minor things on a consistent basis with every single one of our stuff. So the whole intention is to teach this process for them so that they can review their own calls and be like, ah, I see where I'm messing up. Funny, because a lot of the times I get on calls and someone says, I need help with this, right? And I, you know, it could be a half an hour call and we finished the call in five minutes. Because I'm like, you already know the answer. You've already told me. You've just not recognized it. So like, you said xyz. So like, why don't you just do that? You're like, ah, yeah, you're right. Like, okay, go do that. Come back to me in 30 days. So it's funny. Then they can ask for some strategy or they can come up with their own strategy. And it's, it's really. So step one is just like awareness and understanding of what exists so that we know how to solve it. The step two, quite simply, we put in a strategy.

Right?

Now, let's say for little Timmy, that strategy was, you know, understanding the script, right? It's not just, here's a script. It's like, okay, Timmy, like, your job is to practice this script every day. Like, I want you to do four role plays a week. Funny, because a lot of the times I Get on calls and someone says, I need help with this, right? And I, you know, could be a half an hour call, and we finished the call in five minutes. Because I'm like, you already know the answer. I want you to review your calls three times a week. But more importantly, I want you to assign, like, one to two hours to study that script. And we're going to give you, like, a document that we have internally on understanding things. Now, that just isn't Mamorati, Toby. You've just not recognized it. So, like, you said X, Y, Z. So like, why don't you just do that? Like, ah, yeah, you're right. Like, okay, go do that. Come back to me in 30 days. So it's funny, as in words. That's, let's say the opening line on that could be, hey, this is Timmy from xyz. Just here to talk to you about xyz, right? It's not memorizing that word. It's like understanding. Okay, what's the intention behind why I asked that with this sentence? So step one is just like, awareness and understanding of what exists so that we know how to solve it. Step two, quite simply, we put in a strategy, right? Now, let's say for little Timmy, that strategy was, you know, understanding the script, Right? It's not just, here's a script. It's like, okay, Timmy, like, your job is to practice the script every day. Like, I want you to do four role plays a week. I want you to review your calls three times a week. But more importantly, I want you to assign, like, one to two hours to study that script. And we're going to give you, like, a document that we have internally on understanding things. Now, that just isn't memorizing words. That's, let's say, the opening line on that could be, hey, this is Timmy from xyz. Just here to talk to you about xyz, right? It's not memorizing that word. It's like understanding. Okay, what's the intention behind why I asked that? With this sentence that I'm asking, why am I saying that? Am I looking for a certain response? What is that response? Can I ask that in a different way to get said response?

Right.

That way you understand the intention of why you're doing something. When you understand the intention, you get a better concept of where you're going, why you're going there and where you need to get to so that you don't need to follow a script word for word. But you can change the process, adjust it as the Conversation involves. So it is a more free flowing conversation, kind of like this. Rather than us just putting 30 points up and say, okay, like we've talked about this, cross it off. Next point, let's talk about this. Cross it off. It's not very engaging. It feels like as you said on the sales call before, it's like, I know what you're doing, you're just reading off a script. I can feel that. So we need to teach people how to have natural conversations. So the strategy could be like, okay, these are the three action points. You're going to go do that. Then step three is you take an action, you just do it. You do it continuously for as long as you need to do that until you can see change.

Right.

There's nothing special about that part is besides get some balls, do what you need to do to get better. Can't do that, probably not going to be cut out in this field. Or if you have a goal and you go to apply it, you don't take action, you're probably never going to be successful with any aspect.

Right.

So step four is then just review. Okay, so and that's as simple as like, you know, maybe jumping on another call with one of our team or you know, ideally doing it for yourself. And that really comes down to like on a larger scale analyzing the data but really asking yourself one question, did I achieve what I was trying to?

Right?

The answer is yes. Brilliant. If the answer is no, why not? Did I not take enough action? Was the strategy wrong? Was there any other factors that may have impacted the success of this action or this plan?

Right.

If the answer to did this work is yes, great. If it's not, then we identify why. Okay, Maybe that strategy doesn't work for this person's learning style. Maybe it was a poor strategy, maybe we need a better strategy. Or maybe that person just needs a slap in the face and a wake up call to be and a hard conversation to be like just do and work like the reason it failed is because you didn't do anything. So how about we commit to doing this and maybe we need to put additional accountability in to get you there.

Right?

Then we identify that what needs to happen, readjust the strategy and take more action. Okay, then step five is, is simple. Once that's worked and we've got the strategy right, then we continuously reinforce that habit by taking continued action long enough to the point where that is now habitual.

Right.

And that our go to is to take that action every day without needing to think about it. Then we can stop consciously putting effort into that now. That's great. So we've gone through our five steps. We've ideally fixed that problem. Now we might have 100 problems in that sales process that we need to get better at. And every single time we just pick the lowest hanging fruit, put a strategy in place, then take action, go through that same process time and time again. We might aim to do three or four of those at once, right? Because as you're first learning, it's, you're learning a lot of things, you're spending a lot of time on development. You get better at multiple things. But ideally we want the lowest hanging fruit. Then continuously pick the biggest, lowest hanging fruits. And then let's say if we've got a hundred things that we need to get right in order to, to get to mastery, it's like, great, we've got this right, the lowest hang through it might make up this much of it. Then we put another thing, it might make up this much. Then we do one another thing. So that could be like getting the structure objection, handling tonality, right. Then we're 70% of the way to mastery. Then from there the process gets a bit harder because like, we've nailed the basics, right? We've, we've mastered those. It's all those little 1% things. It's like, oh, okay, now let's look at strategic parsing. Let's look at pattern interrupts. Let's look at those things that only are going to make 1% of difference. That if you're closing 7 out of 10 people, adding on that extra 30% of mastery is probably only going to account for an additional 5 to 6% of results. We as a company, we strive for that little 5 to 6% of results because that's where most people stop. And our standards, they don't allow us to stop there because it's just not good enough and it isn't in line with what we work for. And that is how we develop people consistently.

I like the way, while simpering simple in nature, the way you've articulated it has really highlighted the importance. But the first thing that comes to my mind is just how much this relates to sport again, or the world of athletes. Because when you look at it, it's like what come or what sporting organization is really striving for averageness. Like in their mind they're always looking for a championship. So it's like, or whatever the end goal of that sport is.

I wish I knew who you supported because I would have said that.

Well, you know, like, if you're the team on the bottom of the ladder, like, maybe it's a, you know, making the top eight or four or whatever it is in there might be the. That might be your version of the championship, but that might be excellence versus where you're at. Right. I find it really interesting that when you drift this over, that's the first thing that comes up is like, that level of mastery isn't going to be found inside companies striving for average. Like, you have to be aiming for that high. But the other part of this I'm very curious about because you've got the experience not just as being who does this for yourself, but in other people, is that how often, and I'm curious, as I said, general curiosity here, how often when someone comes to you, are they even aware of what their lowest hanging fruit problem is? Like, are they trying to work on other things? And then they're like, well, actually, this is the problem. Or how do you view that?

I'd say, like 30% of the time. Like, a lot of the time people have a concept but not enough detail as to what that is.

So it might be a strategy that they're really lacking. They know they're struggling with objections, but they're just not sure how to actually solve those objections.

Yeah. So they might be struggling with objections, but they can't conceptualize how or why. We'll go back to that trainer that's a bit overweight and they're struggling with the objection where people need to think about it. It's like, oh, okay, so that's what you perceive the problem to be. Well, is it really? No, probably not.

Right.

The problem is probably the fact that you're getting that objection because there's a lack of trust because you're incongruent with what you're selling and you don't have any conviction because of that. Incongruent.

Right.

So it's like, okay, well, let's be realistic. Like, we had a guy that asked, how do we get better? He asked Matt and shout out to you. You'll be listening. You'll know who we're talking about. He basically said, like, you know, how do I do good on this fitness offer? And Matt basically told him, lose weight. And he did. He signed up to James, you know, our coach. And his sales went through the roof because all of a sudden he understood their objections. He understood why they didn't perceive it that way. And he. Because, like, he might not have lost that weight in a period of Time. But he was congruent with the fact that he was in a process where he was doing it. So he understand what they were going through, he understand what they felt, he understand how hard it was for him to take the action and acknowledge that it's something he needed to work on. And because of that level of congruency, he had the conviction there to say. To say was the words coming out of his mouth had proper meaning because he believed. I have no idea where I was going with that, nor what you even asked. Sorry, Charlie.

What I was alluding to here is that my own experience tells me in developing people, and I know my world is very different in ways of, like, technical skills, but people are people. The thing I find really fascinating in my experience is that the awareness level is often being curious. Like, I've watched people attempt to fix skills that were actually good. So they're like, let's say they're good at something and they really double down on being, like, excellent at that thing. But there's a blaring, obvious hole in what they should be working on.

Yeah.

And then the other one I'm very curious on your thoughts around is the action component. Like, I found that once people develop a new tactic or technique or strategy, in your words here, sometimes they can get a little bit trigger shy. Like, they won't use it like becoming. Having it become habitual, it's actually a really big step and takes a lot of, like, I suppose, pattern change in their own life.

Yeah, yeah. And like, if you have, like, massive flaws that you need to be working on. And when I say that, I mean not personally, like through sales.

Right.

If that doesn't become habit, like, you just go back to where you were because you clearly didn't have it well enough, because if you did, you'd be doing it from day one.

Right.

And we. If you go backwards, then you're just accepting mediocrity as the standards in which you live by. And you know, that's not something that we accept here. So that's why, like, once we've solved a problem, it's like, no, you continue doing this consistently until it is enforced on all levels.

Right.

So I don't want to have to. I don't ever want to have to have another conversation with someone where it's like, okay, we put this in place, right? In six months, you better not come to me with the same problem. You know, like, I. I don't accept that. Like, no one on our team accepts that. And our guys, for the most part, don't accept that for themselves.

Right.

Because that is a backward step. You know, like if we let that relapse into where we originally started from, then we haven't made the progress. And it's that progress towards our goals that makes people feel accomplished. That just leads to higher levels of confidence. And again, those. Those three C's.

I like the idea. This is where culture comes in as well. Like you mentioned that, you know, let's. Let's pretend. We'll use the closing example here. You're a salesperson and you're closing like 5 out of 10, and then you finally get to 7 out of 10, and, you know, a level of complacency kicks in because you, you know, you've made progress.

Yeah, yeah.

But it's only in the highly, I suppose we'll call it the organizations going for excellence that they push for eight. Like that demand comes through.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's. It's really pushing to like, we push that for eight, because with the talent that we have in our organization, it would be a travesty if they never reached that highest level. And it's almost insulting to the talent that people have. If we allow them to settle for seven as opposed to eight, it would be a huge insult. One of the biggest fears that I have for myself personally, but for us as a company, a lot of the guys that I speak to that work here have the same fears. And that, that major fear is that we're never going to find out what we're capable of doing. Allowing that relapse to go back to a 7 as opposed to pushing for an 8 then an 8 and 5, a 9, then a 10. That's essentially just saying, you know what? It's okay not to find that out. You're essentially giving permission for mediocrity to creep in your life, which complacency really is just like an acceptance of mediocrity and an acceptance of where you're at now. That's fine.

Right.

And I am okay with people wanting to get to a seven and they're happy with conservative. They can do it consistently. That is perfectly fine. And I will have happily have those people in the organization under one premise. And that. That premise is that you don't ever tell me that you want more.

Right.

If you want to be an 8, and if you talk like you want to be an eight, then like, I don't accept that. But if you're happy in life, you've got everything going from you getting to that level of seven Gives you the consistency, gives you the joy, gives you the happiness for your life without actually having to work more and push yourself to the next level. If that's what, what you're okay with and you accept and you have a happy life, then that's awesome. Provided you don't say that you want more and you're unhappy with the love that you're at because it's just such a huge contradiction that we can't allow that. But I'm, I'm cool with people with, like, you want to get to this level, you want to work 10 hour days, so you want to work 10 hour weeks and you're happy to make five sales work in 10 hour weeks because you've got other things and you want to spend time with your kids and that's cool. I accept that. As long as it's pre disclosed to us that that's your intention and where you want to be long term, because great, we've got you to where you need to be. We can focus the attention on the other people that want to get to that next level. Because who am I to say like, what your end goal should be? Like, if you're happy to sit on the couch with your kid for half the day and work the other half, then power to you. I love it.

Yeah, it's interesting, right? For myself and I won't pretend to push my views on other people, but it's like, I just can't work out why anyone would get into something and then not want to be good at it. I'm like, exactly. Well, that is my feeling and I feel you share that. But it just fascinates me where people would settle. It's like, you know, I make my coffee like it's the Olympics.

Coffee is for closest.

Absolutely. Now we're heading towards the end of this episode here. Is there any points you want to chime in or perhaps at another point we'll do another round too, because I'm really interested to do a deep dive into the culture of what you've built there.

Well, well, let's let the listeners vote. Like, if you found value in this, let me know because we're happy to do it again. We just come up with this idea the other day since Matt was away and we're getting behind in podcasts for Charlie's team to make for us. So, like, all right, let's just do a solo podcast. Then I thought to myself, I was like, can I really sit in a room and talk for 40 minutes straight without somebody, like giving me prompts. And the answer to that was no. I've seen a lot of Charlie's interviews before, and I'm like, you know what? I struggle to articulate a lot of things. So having someone who's good at interviews on the other end of the phone, per se, would allow those questions and prompts to actually come out in the way that's intended and, you know, hopefully to a. To a higher level of intellect. I would. I would like to hear. So if you found this valuable, like, you want to go into stuff that's, you know, not directly sales specific, but has a huge, profound impact on the way that you do sales and how that comes across in your sales career, then please let us know, because I'm more than happy to do more of it.

Oh, well, thank you for having me today, James, to come and co host this episode with you.

Thanks for coming.

I'll let you end it and wrap it up, but once again, big thanks.

Yeah. So thanks, guys. If you found value in this, like, the best thing to do is subscribe. Come join the closing code Facebook group. There we have a free Facebook group where we stream a lot of. A lot of free content. And the whole intention of that is for salespeople to get better at sales just by being in that group. And hopefully we offer you enough value that one day, whether that's in three months or three years, you want to buy something from us because we've done a good job. That's the full transparency, as I spoke about that a lot.

Absolutely. Make sure you subscribe to the show on whatever channel you're watching right now, and links to the Facebook group and to subscribe will be in the description.

All right, guys, thanks for coming. Hope you had fun.

Bye.

Put that coffee down. Coffee's for closers only.