How To Build A Killer Sales Team - CIFC Episode 125
Matt Ryder discusses scaling a sales team, covering hiring decisions, delegation, and building trust with your people. He shares what he learned managing a dynamic team and navigating equity distribution and leadership challenges in a sales-driven business.
I would do anything for love, But I won't do that. Begin. Hey, guys. What's up? Matt here. Welcome to the episode of Coffee Is for Closers today here with Pat once again.
Hello.
And what are we going to be going over today, Pat?
We're talking about team building and maintenance.
Okay. If you like that kind of stuff, stick around. If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review building a team.
So you just got back so observably to the audience. Nothing's happened because we batch recorded a bunch of. But you were gone for a little while. You just got back from the States. You went over there to do a retreat. And I wanted to discuss with you. Not too long ago, I remember when Sales Sniper was fitness Sales sniper and it was just you. And now there's.
Those are the good old days.
Tell me about it.
Less money, more work. It's a dream.
But now there's like 150 odd people. And I want to talk about a little bit about the journey from start to finish on that.
Yeah.
And then not just the building of a team and its necessity, but the maintenance and the, you know, ongoing training of a team.
Yep.
When did you decide to, like, okay, this is bigger than me. I need to bring in more people.
Like, like significantly more people or like a couple people.
Anyone, like, even one person.
So I brought in James relatively early. So I was sort of doing the thing and cold calling people, and I was selling, like, probably had like four or five gyms that I was doing the sales for. And then I just realized, like, all right, there was so much demand for the service because. And I can see now why, because, like, nobody in their right mind would do it. It's a really difficult thing to do. And, like, I'd be working with James for. In the gym. We had a good working relationship. So I was like, james is good at fitness sales. I was like, I get him on the phone, I can double the amount of output. Double the amount of money should be pretty good. Like, when I went to him, he was like, I'm not like, working for you. I'll work with you. And I was like, all right, fuck it. So I brought him in. We quickly realized it was kind of a better relationship if I was on the phone and then he would do all the kind of, like, background stuff to make sure that, like, I was able to just be on the phone and, you know, help with the invoicing and the administrative requirements around all the sales, and, you know, just like, kind of look for stuff, client facing, all, like. Like all that kind of good stuff. And so from then, like, we were kind of a team. We were doing stuff. And again, like, the demand was just massive. And so we were like, well, like, what do we do now? So I guess we're like, we'll bring on a sales guy. And Marco was that sales guy.
Okay. Yeah.
So that's how the team went. It was you, then James, then Marco.
Yeah.
And then just started filling out after that.
Yeah. And then we got a guy. Like, I put up one ad selling I've ever done for, like, a salesperson, and it was like, I got one answer, and it was Jimmy Reese Hopkins, who's in the uk, who's like our head of training, and he was a sales guy. So, like, then I had a UK sales guy, and I was like, sweet, because a bunch of the inquiries I was getting from the uk, it was really odd. I don't even know where they came from. I don't know how they found me. I don't really know how that all happened. Like, I was posting stuff on Facebook, but, like, just personal Facebook. And I think it was just referrals. People were just talking about it because, like, no one had done the service before or maybe not to any sort of degree of efficacy. So, yeah, I was just kind of like, you go here, you go here. And then all of a sudden, like, I was like, we had more inquiries. So, like, I reached out to a few guys I knew who had done fitness sales before, got them on board, and just kind of started to grow. So we weren't really a team. We're just kind of like, me, James and Marco were kind of a team. And then, like, Jimmy as well. But, like, the other guys that we had, it was just kind of like coming and going.
Yeah.
Okay, so what was it like for you then, that sort of initial handover of control? Because one thing I've noticed is, like, what you're very good at now is just like, that's your job. You do it. But a lot of it is your reputation on the line. You're the outward face of the company. But there's a lot of people, like, just say, in my department, for example, there's probably four or five people that have, like, that we post on your behalf, and therefore we have the logins to your. I'm logged into your Instagram. And the, like, what was that like? Now you're very comfortable with it. You do it all the time. It's no big deal. But that initial handover and loss of control, I imagine that's what inhibits a lot of business growth from people.
Yeah.
Is that like, I. No one can do it as good as me, which is probably true.
Oh, it's definitely not though. Like, I mean, I was talking to. I was talking to Will Hinkson and I know, you know, like, there are, like, Anthony, for example, like, is just vastly superior to me in like a few really key ways.
Okay.
Like, he's so much more detail oriented. His ability to like, dissect an account and then like implement the changes that need to be made is vastly superior to mine. My, like my, my main thing, which I do better than most people is abstract problem solving.
Okay.
That's really it.
Yeah.
Like, I'm good at seeing very difficult problems and going like, it seems like a good idea, let's try this. And it works out most the time. So like. But like, you know that, that the implementation of that solution I kind of suck at.
Okay.
Right. But I know that. So I just. You hire people who are much better at that, you know, which seems to kind of make sense. Like, you know, James, the reason why I got him is because, like, he is a detail oriented, like, sort of more fastidious person than what I am, whereas I'm just more like, big picture. Yay. Let's kind of do the thing.
But did you hit any resistance for the first time that you were like, hey, you do this because I'm gonna do this. You're having been doing everything yourself for, you know, a pretty long period of time.
I don't know, man. Like, I. No, no, no. I just.
Okay, that eliminates advice on how to overcome that. You just never, you just never encountered it.
Well, I think, like, I never, I don't think I didn't encounter. Because, like, like, why hire people that you don't trust?
Yeah. Okay.
Right. So, like, I'm lucky enough like a hire. I've known you for what, 15 years?
Some of that.
Yeah.
Something like almost 20 years. Like, fuck, man. Like, if you, if you can't replicate my voice as well or pretty close to as well as me, like, then who can?
Yeah, okay.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, so like, what's the point?
Yeah.
And, and then I think like, people are gonna fuck up. And I think, I think one of the problems is people just think fuck ups are way bigger than what they are.
Yeah.
You know, like when that setter a little while ago fucked up and started trying to Pinch people from other things. I was like, ah, cares. Like everyone's forgotten about it already. Like, what's the point? Everyone's memories are so short and so like the fuck ups. Especially if people are somewhat compartmentalized, it's difficult to do a catastrophic fuck up. I can catastrophically fuck up. Like if I do something or say something or, you know, like, I'm the one who can make the largest mistake. So like everybody else is somewhat compartmentalized in a way where it's like there's a mitigation of any risk of them doing anything too badly, which is what like, bureaucracy is.
Yeah.
You know, it's one of the reasons why like the US Government is set up the way it is. Like, it's just hard to get shit done.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it just mitigates a lot of the risk. And so I think it's like, I just, I just know that other people are a lot better than me. That and like I was talking to Will Hinkson, who's the CEO of Sales Sniper, like at the retreat and he was like, I was like, I fuck, you're way better at me at certain things. I'm still better at you at certain things. I fucking hope to God you get better than me at those things. Because like, if. Why hire someone if you don't think they can be better than you at it?
Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. So one of the things. Did you ever face any resistance in the idea of, you know, we preach putting out a lot of content. You know that this, most of the sales and marketing that this company does is for coaches and consultants.
Yeah.
The, the key to them is that building know, like, and trust, creating a ton of content. In reality, once you hit a certain tipping point, you just cannot continue to create the content yourself. Somebody else has to take over and put that out for you so that you can continue to actually service the clients that that content has created.
Yeah.
Did you feel any resistance in regards to that? Like, I'm no longer going to be editing it. I'm no longer going to have the final say on what comes out. And how did you feel sort of when you hit that point when you first could just have that editor in? Andre. Right, that was in.
Yeah.
So when you first were like, here's, here's. I filmed it. There's a bunch of different takes. Make the best one and post it on YouTube.
Yeah, yeah, I think I didn't have that for personal Facebook. I still have that. Like, I don't like, like I don't Let them do that.
Yeah.
Like, they want to do copywriting on my personal Facebook, and I hate everything they do.
Yeah.
It's like, nah, I wouldn't say that.
Yeah.
And, like, I'm. But I'm a good copywriter, so I can prefer for myself. Like, yeah, of course.
Yeah.
So I'm. I'm good at doing that. I know what my audience wants. I know what they want to see. I don't like when things get accidentally posted on my personal profile because, like, I know that medium so well that I don't like things happening without my say so or approval because I know what the audience will react to.
Right.
But I was really lucky with Andres because Andres did two jobs. He did content curation and editing, even though he was just an editor.
Okay.
So I really lucked out with a guy that could consume the content and then go, oh, this is the best way to put that together. And that was pure dumb luck.
Okay.
He was a referral. He's like, hey, he's a great editor. Because I didn't realize, like, that's two different jobs.
Yeah. Yeah.
A lot of people mistakenly think you just hand stuff to an editor and they can just make brilliant shit out of it. Now, in a vlog, that's the editor's job pretty much. Right. Is to sort of make that look good. But when it comes to infotainment, which is essentially what we do.
Right.
Information somewhat entered. Well, hopefully entertaining manner, or at least engaging manner. Right, Right.
We're trying.
We're trying our hardest. Like, that's really hard to put together because you have to understand the concepts that are kind of being espoused. So, like, just handing that to an editor is tough.
Yeah.
Uh, and we've been lucky, really lucky with. With Boosh, because, you know, he puts it all together and he can make interesting things and, you know, put out quality reels, you know, from. From this podcast and stuff. So I was very lucky to have a good initial experience, which probably left me to kind of hand things over a little bit easier. But also, like, I have probably, to a fault, too much of, like, a trusting nature where it has burned me a few times when I've gone, okay, I trust you. Go do this, and then it hasn't been done to a good standard.
Is there an example of that you can talk about?
Usually it's with, like, contractors. You know what I mean? Like, I've hired contractors and just kind of left them to their own devices. And it wasn't until four or five, six months down the Track that I kind of realized they're actually not doing anything.
Yeah.
You know, and it's like I kind of. One of the. One of the mistakes that we make here is like, we really put in a lot of effort. Put in a lot of effort for our clients. We really try and make things work. We go above and beyond. Like, we just did a big. I can't say the name of the company because we're under an NDA, but a really big reshape of the Asia Pacific sales process for a very large company in the finance space. And they were like, we've never worked with a contractor that has come close to you guys.
Right.
Like, the testimony they gave us was phenomenal because we go above and beyond. And like, they're messaging this guy, you know, 11:00pm on a Saturday, going, we're trying to work through this and this and this. And these guys. Fuck are these guys doing?
Yeah.
And they got a standing ovation at the end of their presentation. Okay. And that's going to. We're going to try and roll that out to the whole world of which we have a pretty good chance to.
Yeah.
So it's a good payday for us when they're going to get a good product.
Yeah.
But like, we just kind of expect other contractors and people who come work for us to do the same thing. And so, like, so I hate hiring anyone from corporate. And I've made that mistake as well. Like hiring people from corporate backgrounds, they're just not a good fit. You know, we've tried it a few times now.
And in what way?
Like, so there's tremendous amount of, like, we have a good. I think we're fairly systemized here. Like, fairly probably more than I realize, to be perfectly honest. Like, there are systems and structures to kind of everything. Spencer does a phenomenal job of making that. But it's difficult to hide behind those systems and structures because, like, there's like a responsibility and an accountability chart. So it's like you're. This is your job description. This is what you're responsible for. This is what you're accountable for. And there's like, ways that Spencer can hold people accountable to those things. Whereas, like, in corporate, like, people hide behind structure, you know, and so this sort of, you know. You know, like when we had that friend who went to customs.
Yeah, yeah, Right.
Like, basically almost got fired for doing a good job.
Yeah.
And then did nothing. And they were like, yeah, high five. You're killing it, bro.
That's what we want, you know, so.
It'S like a lot of times in corporate it's like don't make way waves.
Yeah.
Keep your head down. Just kind of do the minimum requirement. Don't make anyone look bad. It's like those businesses are making so much money it almost doesn't matter.
Yeah.
Like we were talking to a really large company about helping them out with marketing and we still are. It'll be a very long sales cycle. But their branding budget was 27 million and I was like and what's the KPI they have attached to it? And they go oh no, they don't have one.
Yeah.
It's like $27 million and you don't have a fucking like not a single one.
You have.
No, just spend it.
If they're, if they're doing anything.
Yeah.
And like they could just be doing anything they want with that money and like but there's no expectation of a return and like that's just crazy. But then, so imagine being in that role and then going to like a small to medium sized business where like you have to be like you. No, no. Like every employee has to get a 5x return.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's like and if you're not, what are you doing here?
And do you think like a good way to explain that maybe is like in those bigger corporate gigs it's just don't do anything that could derail the train. Whereas like what we're trying to do here is, is speed the train right up.
Yeah.
And we accept that like sometimes it comes off the track. Like that's, that's part of the.
Yeah.
That when you experiment with.
Yeah.
It's like when you go forward driving the whole point is to get bogged.
Yeah. Then you get to use your recovery stuff. That's the good thing.
Right.
Like, like, like at the retreat it was interesting because I, you know, I think like I don't like to give. It's a fine balance between like how do you give strong leadership but like still on people. I don't know. You're going to make mistakes.
Yeah.
You know and I probably err too much in like the hey we're probably going to fuck this up. You know. But we're a group of highly motivated, intelligent individuals who will make the best of whatever fuck ups we do.
Yeah.
And so the analogy I always use is like we're building the plane while we're taking off and it's like if you want to be here you have to be okay with that. Realize that every now and then it's going to be A little bit bumpy.
Yeah.
You know, but, like, it's more fun.
Yeah.
It's more challenging. And the people who are kind of into that, like, they love it. They're like, yeah, sweet. Like, we get to kind of be a part of something being built now. How long that goes for? I don't know yet.
Yeah.
So then in your hiring process, you're looking for people you can trust, but probably beyond before anything else, do you think? But then also people who are adaptable and willing to experiment and stuff like that, rather than people who are like, you know, if the box isn't ticked, I'll freak out.
Yeah. I think, like. Like, perfectionism is really tough, I think, for any dynamic environment. Like, you know, I think it was a while ago, we're talking about good enough. Good enough is good enough.
Yeah.
That doesn't mean, like. Like, you know, we take a. We try and do the highest quality standard that we can at all times, but, like, sometimes you just gotta go fuck it. Like, let's give it a crack.
Yeah.
Like, this is as good as we can do with the information that we have. We might as well just get it out there.
Yeah.
Like, I'm never gonna spend eight hours writing a script.
Mm.
Because, like, I, like, I just don't know how that's gonna go. So it's like, all right, a quick script, which I, based on previous experience and previous accounts and knowledge that I have, will be pretty good. Could it be better? Yeah, but, like, I'd rather just get it out there, do the calls, listen to the calls, and then just refine it as we go, rather than, you know, doing the whole, like, you know, you have a perfect plan, then all of a sudden you get punched in the face and it's like, what was the point of all that? Time spent?
Yeah. Yeah.
It doesn't make any sense.
Yeah.
And I think a lot of that comes from watching ridiculously complex plans be made for three days in the military. And then you get out there and you're like, well, that was fun. It's all FUBAR anyway.
Yeah.
You know.
All right, so team building. Let me sort of bring us back to that because I'm curious about. I think some people have their team building being very intentional. They then, you know, they decide, like, oh, I. I've. I anticipate a gap. I'm going to build a team around that. And then others are like, oh, I have a gap. I'm going to fill it. Where do you think you fall into that?
Probably the latter. I think a Bit more off the cuff. But I think what I've tried to do, which is intentional is just collect the highest caliber of human, you know, like that's what I see. One of my main roles here is like attracting high performing individuals. It's like if you have a really good team, it's hard to fail. You have your ups and downs. But I think, you know, I look around at the team that we have and I'm like, man, everyone is like super smart, highly motivated. There's not many people that we have to like, especially on like a management level. Like, there's no one who won't just put in the work.
Yeah.
You know, I think something that I observe for sure is that everybody here is kind of bored in. Yeah, right. Like, I think there's no one that there's no one in the management team that I can observe anyway. Not that I see everyone doing their jobs, but that I think is just sort of, this is my nine to five and that's it. Like everybody is like, no, I'm part of this machine and I'm. I'm pushing it forward.
Yeah.
How. That's very intentional though.
Yeah. So that's what I mean. So like identifying that as a trade in someone, are you able to identify that and hire because of it or do you like when someone's in the system, that's how you progress them to management.
It's thing. It's both.
Okay.
So like there's definitely people that we've just hired the sales guys and gone. You've like, you're the guy. We have to figure out a place for you, you know, like, so we're like trying to figure out like there's probably the three. Three of those most obvious individual. Four most obvious individuals would be. Or five. Sorry. Tony, Road, Shane, Jeff and Sean.
Okay.
Right. Highly capable, smart, dynamic. Like we'll be pretty good in any role we give them. So it's like we just were like, come on in management and we'll figure it out. Right now. That was like probably to the detriment financially initial because. And probably them around more than what I'd care to say because like we didn't really have clear and defined roles for them, but they just got to work and they filled gaps and they did stuff, you know, like no one in Sales Sniper has been fucked around more than Tony had that.
Okay, elaborate.
No one. Right.
What happened?
And he just got a Sales sniper tattoo at the retreat. I owe him 500 bucks actually. Because I said if you can close the deal while Getting the tattoo. I'll give you 500 bucks. He did.
Which we have footage of.
Yeah.
Stand by.
Yeah, yeah.
But, like, he.
He.
He was like, maybe the third or fourth sales guy that I recruited.
Okay.
So, like, it was Will Odoms. Right. Will should be on that list too, actually. But he's not in management because he's just, like, straight selling.
Okay.
Because he sells a shit.
Yeah.
And he's happy there. He does.
Well, we had that chat, so we. We moved him into management to. You know what I mean? But then I had a chat with him later on. I was like, I don't think, like, right now this is the right spot for you. Like, I think if you just concentrate on selling, like, that's really where you're at. Because he had certain goals he wanted to hit. And I was like, all I'm doing is taking away your ability to sell. That's it. Right. And like, management will never. Not necessarily capped, but if you just want to make money, sales is a spot for you.
Yeah.
And you can still be a leader in the community without being in management. Like, Will is a leader in sales. No question about it. But he's not in management technically. Right. But, like, when I need something done, I can ask him and he can get it done. And he. He's. He's a leader. Right.
He's that dude in the team that, like, really should be a sergeant, but.
Yeah. He's just so good at what he does. Just keep him shooting people.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like, he's a killer.
Yeah.
So. But, like, Tony has been on, like, every account ever. You know what I mean? And he's kind of the guy that when we need someone for an account and it's short term, it's Tony. Right. But, like, he's. And now he's like, kind of like our. Not hr, because we call him hr, but he's making sure everyone's happy.
Okay.
Right. And he's on accounts as well.
So why was he moving account to account?
He's reliable.
Okay.
Right. I trained him. He's a good sales guy. He's able to adapt quickly. He doesn't fucking complain. I know if I put him somewhere, he'll do what he's supposed to do. And he sees it as, like, helping the cause, you know? I mean, like, oh, yes, we'll go over here. I'll do this, I'll do this. You know what I mean? And every now and then he gets around because it's like, we'll move him, but we haven't got him on an account. And I just realized in the retreat, I was like, you're in an account? He's like, no, not right now. I'm like. I was like, jesus, mate, let me know.
Right?
Yeah, he still gets paid, like, a fee for doing what he does. But I was like, oh, Jesus, man. Okay, yeah, we'll fix that right up. So I fixed that day.
Yeah.
And then he made a sale that day.
Yeah, man.
All right. So, like, the team building has been somewhat organic.
You.
Have you ever poached anyone?
Oh, yeah.
Hard. Yeah. Yeah.
And. And why? Like, be as specific as you can, but, like, who have you identified? Or what was the trait? What was the.
The. The.
You know, the hole that you were trying to plug?
Yeah.
And how did. How did you sweeten the deal? Like, why did they come to us leaving someone else?
I'm in a uniquely advanced, advantageous position of where seventh level is like, a tremendously. Like, it's just a great machine, right. Because it's the best sales methodology there is. So the best sales guys kind of gravitate to it because they figure it out. So, like, I mean, I poach two people a month, you know, two to three a month, I would say. Yeah, because that, like, I do coaching in seventh level in the inner circle program, and so I get to quickly identify talent because, like, the. There's some people can. There's a really. Some people can hear a sales guy and go, oh, yeah, he's good, right? Or no, he's not good. Some people can hear a sales guy and go, he can be good.
Okay. Right.
So there's not many people that have the second characteristic. I can hear someone and go, you have potential to be good. I can also hear someone and say, you got no chance. You might as well just quit.
Really?
Yeah, Yeah. I generally don't say that to people. I have said it.
Yeah.
Like, I've. I've seen people invest so much time and energy and money into sales training where I've stopped them from doing, like, another investment and gone. You just. You don't have it. Like, you'd. You'd be better copywriter or you'd be better this. Like, you should have you said that.
To anyone and then they have turned out to have it.
Not yet.
I had a guy at the unit when I was. Yeah, they. Like, your sub 2 corporal is the same as the AITS guy said to me. It's like, hey, Pat, dude. Like, it was hammering rain. It was this horrible day. It was just putrid Life conditions. And we're sitting in this stupid pit together. And he goes, you know, selection's coming up. Yes. Are you gonna be an instructor on the selection? I was like, yep, I am. And he's like, do you think I'm gonna make it? And I was like, no. He's like, what do you mean? And I was like, dude, I just.
Don'T think you are.
I just don't think you're gonna make it. And he's like, why? And I was like, I don't know. Like, I just.
Just a feeling.
It's just he got all the things, but I just don't think it's gonna pan out. He didn't.
And I made goddamn sure of it.
But I'm pretty sure, like, that was the hatred and the fuel that he needed because he came back two years later and killed it. It's one of the, like, best shooters in the unit.
Yeah.
But when he came back, he's a different person. Like, a different person came back. And that dude, obviously, sometimes you gotta make it. So I'm curious if you've ever, like, I think if anyone's ever written your name on the wall in lipstick, I'm sure, and just be like, I'm gonna be successful because you. I am.
I hope so. Yeah, that'd be. That'd be great. And I think there's definitely, like, it's just. It's just like if your decision making process after, say, 12 months of, like, really high quality coaching makes no sense to me, I just. I'm like, man, maybe this isn't for you. Like, if it's taking you that long, like, you're wrong. You can still fit. You could figure it out. But I'm like, how much more time, effort, and energy do you want to put into this? When from what I see, you're a beginner, like, you're a straight beginner after a year or two years or three years, it's like, maybe this just isn't for you. And maybe that maybe you can take the skills that you've learned and apply them to a different vocation or even a different industry. Because, like, I let someone go and we talked about this. I let someone go because they just didn't have it, in my opinion, and they crushed it in a different sales, in a different industry.
Right.
You know, so, like, maybe you just need to, like, get out of coaching and consulting and into an easier industry to sell. Like, go sell recruitment or go sell something that's simpler. Go sell SAS, like SaaS is a crazy one, because you'll get 150k your base.
Right.
You know, so like. Or even a 200k your base.
Yeah.
Because your sale is just going to be like one a year or something like that.
Well, it's not even. Sometimes you're doing a ton of sales, but the value of each individual sale is so low.
Right. Oh, okay.
Like, if you're a slack. If you're a slack sales guy.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
How much comes. Are you gonna make?
Yeah, I'm with you.
Or if you're like in like a. Like a stripe, you know, or something like that. Like, sometimes it's just really small comms, you know, paint merchant, processing. Like, you can get a few whales. Like, one of the guys just signed up, seventh level. Like, he's gonna make a ton of money.
Yeah, right.
He'll make 30 grand or. No, probably make that. He'll probably make, you know, five to 7,000amonth recurring commission.
Right.
Just from our one account.
Yeah.
You know, we'll be there for years.
Yeah.
So he's. And I know that guy. He makes a shitload of money because he's got a bunch of us, you know, so. And the cool thing about that is it's super redundant anyway, let's get into the weeds of sales. But, yeah, so, like, I think when you. When you find the right people and you surround yourself with the right people, but buying people into the coals and what I see, I think people up a lot is like, they're just so greedy, man.
Yeah.
Like, I'm the opposite of greedy.
Yeah.
I don't, like, don't get me wrong, I like money as much as the next guy, but I just, like, I don't see the point in trying to, like, hoard it all. Like, I foregoed my dividend for the year and I gave that as bonuses.
Mm.
I was like, I don't need more money.
Mm.
But I was like, imagine how happy all these people would be if they had more money.
Mm.
And then. So I gave a shitload of $5,000 bonuses.
Cool.
And so I was like. And then I got all these messages going, like, what's this for? I was like, well done, dude. They're like, man, thanks. And they're, you know. And so, like, for me, having an extra X amount of my bank account, like, to be honest, like, it makes no difference. Like, I don't even. I don't check my bank that much. I give it all to my wealth management guy. Like, it's just there.
Yeah.
You know, so it makes no difference. But, you know, and then the same with equity. Like, equity is, you know, people like, hold on tight. It's like, yeah, but like, I don't want to do this forever.
Mm.
You know, and if I want to be able to step away for a year, because I think there will come a time where I. Where I will step away for six months and do fucking nothing. Like, would shoot a shitload of content. None of you fuckers were ever. Know I left, right? But I might just go, hey, let's take the kids out of school for six months and spend six months as a family.
Yeah.
In Costa Rica or whatever. Right. And I would like to be able to do that at some stage, whenever it is, but then have a bunch of people who are as motivated, if not more motivated than me to. To. To see that as a challenge to grow the business while I'm away.
Okay, so explain. Explain that a bit more because I think we make a lot of assumptions, you know, Talk to us, please, in the comments. If you're listening. You know, just audio jump under the YouTube, find the YouTube video, let us know in the comments. Because I think we make assumptions about the audience is that they're all salesforce people, whatever, Right?
Yeah.
And I think that you explain a lot of things. You just kind of gloss over a lot of things, right. That I think could be explained. So equity and giving it in the company. Like, to what extent do you give that away and what does that look like in reality?
Probably overly aggressively. So we have a employee share option program, so very expensive, time consuming to set up because they're like regulatory things that you have to have. But essentially people have options in our company. Right. So they're basically given a chunk of it right now that has what's called a vesting period, which is like, you have to work here for 36 months. Once you're here for 36 months, you own that piece of the company. Right. And that can be however much we dictate. Right. So we have key stakeholders, and then we have, you know, who have equity. So which the main is me, Marco and James. Like, we have the largest equity stakeholders, and then from there we have, like some other shareholders, and then from there we have our ESL. Right. And so, like, I own like 35% of the company. You know what I mean? I could own a hundred, but I mean, like, how. How invested are the people gonna be?
Yeah.
So they're just gonna get another offer.
Yeah.
No matter how cool I am.
So the whole reason you do that is to Give people skin in the game. And so that they're here beyond. I get paid to be here, but beyond, they have a piece of it. A piece of this is theirs.
Yeah.
And they're as invested in its success beyond their paycheck. There's, there's more beyond that.
Yeah.
So the way, the, the archaic way of describing is called golden handcuffs.
Yeah.
Right. So like let's say I give someone 2% of the company, whatever right now they might get, it'd be in shares. Let's just call it like a hundred thousand shares, right. So they would have a three year vesting period. And I might say, hey, you've done really well. I'm going to give you 25% of your shares with an immediate vest, like a 48 hour vest. So it's like sweet. In 48 hours, from the time that we enact that, you own 25% of those shares. They're yours, they're good to go. You could technically transact them, but that is now on your wealth ticket. Right. Because it's valued at whatever it is per share. So you got that for free. You know what I mean? And there's ways that we have to structure that so it doesn't affect people's taxes.
Yeah, I was gonna say. So that's kind of the issue, like for people listening, they might not realize that if someone gave, if you gave me half of this company right now.
You get an enormous tax.
Oh, you would bankrupt me in doing so.
Yes.
Yeah, big time. But there are ways in which you can structure that to where that doesn't happen. Right. And employee share option programs are designed to be like that, you know, so it's not just giving you chunks of equity. That's not how it works. Right. So. And then I could go, okay, you get another 50%, 24 months after that, and then you get the remaining 25%, 12 months after that. So it's three years. You could do 10 years in five years, whatever. And everyone can be different. Like, it's the beautiful thing. There's no, just very little rules with an esop, as long as you have it structured correctly. So, but in doing that, it's like, let's say I have a rock star like a Will Hingson, right. I pay him very good money, but he might get another offer. But then he's like, oh, man. But I'm, I'm 12 months away from getting my shares vested, so I'm giving up on all of this to take more income. So I'm giving up on wealth to take more income. And then what you can do is you can come to me and go, I've been, I've been made this offer and then we can match it or we cannot or we can, you know, have a bump or whatever or even provide more shares. Go. If you knock that back and don't take a higher thing, I'll give you another 50,000 shares. And it's like, oh fuck. All right, cool. With a, you know, a 12 month vest at the end of that, you know, so it gives you kind of like options in order to keep really good people. Also like those are dividend paying shares. So it means that like over the end of every financial year, you know, we have all the profit. So everyone's incentivized to not only grow the revenue but grow the profit because they get their share in the profit. And then if we ever IPO or exit or everything, they would participate in that as well. And so it's like we're all kind of like, you know, and my job is kind of like the rah rah sis boomba dude is to buy in everyone on the ultimate vision, which is like the value of their shares. And it's like the decisions that we're making are designed, are designed to increase the value of the company of which you have a share, a stake in. You know, so it's like when I give you your initial shares, they're worth 10 cents a share in five years, I want them to be worth 72 cents a share in. Hence you have 7.2 times the amount of wealth just by staying in the company, you know. And so it kind of like, it kind of bonds everyone together.
Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I think that's one of the things that sort of makes others feel a little bit more interested in the accountability of their peers. Right. Because like hey, where if you don't perform, it's not just you that is affected. I am affected by your underperformance.
Yeah.
Therefore like I will invest in you, I'll help you rather than just watch you fuck it up or like hope that you get fired because you probably. It's very unlikely that you will. So we need to work cohesively to push the machine forward.
And the way that we did it is somewhat interesting. I don't even know how much detail I can go in but fuck it, whatever. Like because we have like a top code with like subsidiary units and like, you know, like Sniper Media is a similar business. The sales sniper. I didn't do it per business unit. I just did it for the top coat. So that means that, like, everyone has to work together. And it's like, yeah, if you need to do a little bit of extra work to help out these dudes over here, it's like, we'll fucking suck it up, champ. Because, like, it's all going up there anyway.
Yeah.
You know, so it's all headed to the same funnel. Yeah. We're all. We're in for a penny. We're in for a pound.
Yeah.
And so I think that, like, that's one thing that I see. I think, particularly industry that we're in is, like, probably not being done where that's something that, like, I think corporate, larger businesses have done a lot better.
Okay.
Is like, they might have, like, fun. I was told once, like, oh, we have a great culture. I said. And the guy goes, no, you don't have a great culture. He goes, you just have a bunch of people that enjoy each other's company. I was like, oh, that's a really good point. It's very interesting. And so it's like, the difference a culture is people unified under, like, a singular vision.
Okay.
You know, and that doesn't. And good cultures can. Can have conflict. You know, like, you have a good relationship with someone, you can. You can have disagreeing ideas because, like, there's a. You're passionate about, like, the end state.
Yeah.
Whereas, like, everyone just getting along. It doesn't really mean much.
Okay.
You know, so I think that, yes, we have a culture. Everybody gets along. But I think, like, especially the headshot. And the hard part is disseminating that down.
So is everyone's unified before you carry on? What did you do with that information when. When you got told that you don't have great culture, you've got a bunch of people that get along.
Yeah.
What did you change when you. Is that. That's where the EC came from?
No, we created the scope principles.
Okay.
Right. Strategic, all that kind of stuff.
Set out those values and said, hey, do you guys agree with this?
Okay, good.
You get to stay.
Yeah. And then we kind of simplified it to lead, aim, fire. And then we started, I guess, sort of trying to espouse to the lowest levels that, like, nobody is above, nobody is beyond the culture. Like, and so if we're gonna have say in sales sniper, one of the big catch guys is team teammate Self, which is introduced by Will Hingson, which is like a MARSOC thing.
Yeah.
You know, and it's like, if you look after your team and then you look after your teammate and then look after yourself. You never have to look after yourself because everybody else is doing that.
Yeah.
You should be good to go at all times. Like when you're jumping out of a plane.
Yeah.
You don't want to be checking your own shit.
Yeah.
You want you checking everybody else around you, then they check you, then you check you. And there shouldn't be any mistakes.
Yeah.
Right. So, like, we try and espouse that. And so that, that means that everybody is accountable to that. So if anyone that up, like the newest guy should be able to hold Will Hingson accountable and go, hey, man, that doesn't feel like it's in line with what we're doing here. And he should be able to go, oh, yeah, you're right. Right. You know, so it sort of transcends rank, I think. And that's one thing that, like, James has done particularly well is, like, reiterating that at all points.
Yeah.
So. And the hiring process has to reflect that.
Yeah.
So we've talked quite a lot about sort of the team building, but the training. So, you know, we have a big team. They're all really good. They wouldn't be here if they weren't really good. And yet there's still a lot of training that happens.
What.
What's the idea behind that?
Was training something you do? Is training something you did?
There you go.
Well, I mean, like. Well, you can probably talk about this more than me. Like, you were, you know, training people up in the middle. I was just the dude who got told what to do.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, go and fucking go shoot that target. Yeah, cool. I go shoot that target. So, like, you know, most of what I got comes from, like, you know, in snipers. I just fucking shot every day. What else was I going to do? I'm only at one job. I can shoot. All right, cool. I just do that all the time. Yeah. So, like, when you were running platoons, like, what was your methodology behind that?
Well, I think the thing with training is the ethos I've always had is that there's no such thing as maintenance. Right. You're either going forwards or going backwards. And if you think that you're maintaining, then you're actually going backwards because there are, like, in your day to day, you're never doing everything that will be required of you. And so training for me has always looked like the things that are outside of my day to day, because I'm probably awesome at my day to day. I'm doing it every Day, and I get to test and adjust right there and then I don't need to train what I do. What I do need to do in training is remember the entire scope of where I'm employed and then say, like, I haven't done that in ages. You know, like, I haven't. I haven't ticked that. And make sure that given the opportunity to do that live, I'm still. I'm still capable and I'll do it in a controlled environment where, you know, I'm not, like, if I fuck it, it's no big deal. In fact, I want to. I want to make mistakes. I want to push the limit of, you know, push the limit of completion.
Go.
That wasn't.
That.
That wasn't good. Go back, find the mistake, test and adjust.
Yeah.
Redo it. And I think that's the trick in. In training, in. In any instance.
That's a really good point. Bring it that way.
Yeah. Not training what you do because you're doing what you do.
Yeah. Like, we do run this retreat. And I was like, who here role plays every day? And I was like, waste of time, right? It's like, just. I said, okay, raise your hand if you role play every day. I was like, raise your hand if you have leads to call. I was like, why are you role playing? Yeah, just call the leads. Yeah, like, role play life.
Yeah.
You know, with people, like, that's your job. You should role play things that you suck at individually.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
You know, like, oh, man, I suck at. Think about objections. Like, maybe go and watch the video that's over here or, like, role play that specifically.
Yeah.
Do a really targeted approach to your. To your development and then you'll actually get better. Yeah, but, like, if you just. It's really funny. Like, in inner circle, we have a Facebook group for the inner circle clients at seventh level. And like, every third day, hey, I'm new to nepq. Any other newbies that want to role play? And I just write, stop, stop, stop. I go blind. Leading the blind. Just show up to the sessions. Yeah, don't do it.
Have other people started taking that over for you? Does it get, like, in the group?
Yeah, yeah.
It becomes the running joke of the culture.
Yeah.
You know, so the retreat, what. What was involved you. What did you do there?
What.
What happened?
Just spit out fire like dylon? No, it was good. It came at a really good time. Because I think, like, I think you.
Use that reference enough. No, we need to put video of.
Like, five greatest rappers of all time. Dial on. Dial and dial.
And we need to give that some context. So the video will be here if you're listening. Audio. Too bad. Get on YouTube.
Get on. Just look it up. Dial on. Greatest rapper of all time. Yeah, so it came at a really good time because there was, like, a cultural shifting that we could feel within sales sniper itself. And it was the fact that, like, there is a clear and very deliberate and, like, obvious transition into focusing heavily on outbound Now. It's like sales guys and everyone just sees that as a fuck around. But it's like, it's what we see as the shift that's happening in the market because it's getting harder to book calls just across the board. It's getting more expensive. And so, like, this is a way that we can, like, mitigate that to some degree. Right? And so, like, really, really pushing outbound. Outbound, outbound, outbound. Activity, activity, activity, activity. Some people just didn't fucking like it. I was like, well, you can go fucking kick rocks then. I don't care. Right. This is what's gonna have to be done to be successful in sales for the next few years. I feel.
Okay.
And so.
And you think that that's recession driven?
I just. I think it's platform driven. I think, like, the platforms are getting more competitive. They're getting harder to do things in. It's almost like. It's almost like. It's very strange. It's like marketers figuring something out and then the platforms trying to close that.
Yeah.
You know, like, it doesn't really make sense. It's like they're just trying to make everything as difficult as possible all the time. I don't really know why they're doing that.
That's a great question, mate. I. I've been sort of genuinely curious about that myself, about whether they're doing things in order to defeat marketing. Because, you know, one. Like, one of the things they hate is you being really successful with your ads, right? Like, they want. They want you to have to work hard, and they don't. And especially what they don't like is organic traffic. Right? And. And Instagram actually, like, he. The dude as Missouri or whatever his name is that runs Instagram, he actually reading between the lines in one of the things that he said. He. He talked one time about how much money is made on Instagram, and then he mentions, like, but only half of that is actually made through Instagram. They hate influencers. They hate the idea that you're wearing a product and then someone can buy that product because they saw it on Instagram without buying it through Instagram. Like, they hate that. And so I'm curious about all the weird stuff that they do. And it always seems like you just figure out a strategy and then they change something. And I wonder sometimes, like, whether that is on purpose because they've got people that are like, hey, we see the trend. We see how people are interacting with the platform and how they're being effective in their lead generation. We need to change something to avoid that so that they have to go back to using our ads and paying a lot for it. Right. Versus it just happens to happen.
Yeah.
I mean, like, they change something somewhere else, and the downstream effect is that it changes the way that leads can be generated through the platform. I don't know. And fucked if I can figure it out. I spend all day staring at it.
But it's like when, you know, like, Declan and Emily. Right. So Emily sky, big fitness person, they figured out how to make a buckload of money without paying Facebook a dime.
Mm.
And do you remember they, like, they flew them over.
Yeah.
Like, oh, my God, congratulations. And they fully. I think they just tricked him, to be honest. And they were like, come into Facebook headquarters and make fucking Mark Zuckerberg. And, like, we're gonna try. And, you know, like, you guys are the shiny example of how Facebook can be used. Hey, tell us how you did that. Glue poke closed, like, no more organic traffic to your Facebook pages. Like that Literally. She literally broke it, like, so when they went there and they explained their strategy. Yeah, I hope he got paid to explain it, because it literally, like, it shifted how Facebook worked as a platform because she made millions and millions of dollars with paying $0 to Facebook.
Yeah.
And they were like, I don't want that to happen again.
Yeah.
So, like, it's very clear what their strategy is. They're trying to, you know, jack advertising prices up, but it's like, they can't jack them up so high that it becomes unattainable for the average person.
Yeah.
You know, mate, like, Facebook and Instagram is interesting platforms in that there's nothing in it for the creator, you know, financially. So there's a lot of. So of course, people have to monetize in some other way. They have to.
Right.
So, like, if you've developed an audience, which takes you a ton of time, you know, like, so, you know, in the dog space, there's plenty of people who have a reactive dog. Some of them make that. Most of them make their dog reactive.
Right.
But, like, they work in Marketing. So they put in a ton of time to, you know, give their journey or whatever through Instagram. They get to, you know, fifty thousand, hundred thousand, some of them quarter million followers. Right. And then it's like, okay, I've got this giant audience. How do I turn that into money? And they always end up sort of, you know, affiliate links to dog beds or treat pouches or something like that.
Right.
But so Instagram doesn't get any of that money. Like, it's them just pushing the product. But if they were creating quality content along the way, and then Instagram was like, hey, because of your contribution to the platform, we've made X amount of dollars. Here's some of those dollars, then people wouldn't need to push those products away, which is what YouTube does. Right. So, like YouTube, no worries. Advertise if you want, but we'll also pay you. So you have to now decide, well, there's going to be ads on my show. If I put in ads, how's that going to affect. Now people are doubling down on the ads, so it really has to be worth a while. And instantly, like YouTube actually pay creators and it's a. It's. I mean, it's not necessarily a lot of money depending on your views and whatever, but it's what. It's 50% of what they get. In some instances, it's actually more. They pay the creators more than what they make from the. The ad revenue on it. And that's what is missing from like Instagram, Facebook, there's. They don't pay creators, so they're not incentivized to make good content to keep people on the platform.
Yeah.
So they're stuck in this sort of.
An us versus them.
Yeah.
Whereas at YouTube, it's kind of like we're a team.
Yeah, totally. Exactly. And so the influencers are then stuck in this loop of like having to pay to get their shit seen.
Yeah.
And you can make good money on YouTube. Like, I mean, you know, our little channel makes like what, 600 bucks a month or whatever it is. Yeah. You know, I mean, it's like if you.
If that was scout massively, like, if you. It would be a ridiculous thing, is.
We could stop making videos. It would still be 600 bucks a month.
Yeah.
Just taken over. It just ticks over.
Yeah.
You look at Casey Neistat. Casey Neistat was making millions of dollars a month.
Yeah.
And then just stop posting and continue.
To continue to let it trickle in.
You know, it just comes in. But yeah, it's super interesting. But kind of going back to the retreat, like the point of the retreat. So there was kind of a cultural shift going on. And so we could feel it and it was, you know what I mean? So we're like, okay, we need to bring everyone together in the same spot and then like reunite people under, like a purpose.
What do you mean by cultural shift?
Like, we were sort of really focusing on other things, you know what I mean? It was like there was a transition of me out as CEO, which although means nothing to them. It does, yeah. You know, and then there is this, like, oh, what is this scope? And then somebody said something about ipoing, which freaked everybody the fuck out. Even though it was like, we're not ipo. Like, what are you talking about? Takes years to even set that up.
Right?
And then like, there was a confusion between what is seventh level and what is sales sniper? And all this kind of stuff. And so there was just confusion. And I think, like, everyone sees this. Like, the feedback that I get is like this. We are like a catchment for like troubled youth.
Okay?
Like, we really are just like the military. Yeah, exactly. And I think it's because, like my personality, like the people who are drawn, you can just look at the fucking analytics, are like 22 year old men. You know, I've got the same demographic as Jordan Peterson.
You and Uncle Jody pay the.
You know, and so like when they kind of get into here, like they have me is like kind of the. The male figure that kind of is like, it's okay, we'll be fine. Let's unite under a purpose. But then when there's like, when those waters start to muddy the. The natural proclivity of that personality type is to freak the fuck out, you know, and so. And then we had like this. We had. I've fully fucked up because we had a couple, like, we had a two big accounts give us notice. One of them end up staying, one of them left, but it was all fine. But it was a really big account. And so I freaked the fuck out, like, and then signed up seven shit accounts. Right? And so what?
Like, I got a plug that whole.
Yeah, yeah. I signed him up in like four days. I just went fucking ham.
Yeah.
And so what that meant is that people were onboarded, fucked around, off boarded. You know what I mean? And so that created, I guess probably like, does management really know what the fuck they're doing? You know, which is fair because people are getting stuffed around and I get all that. It was all kind of for a purpose, like, you know, we're trying to figure. Trying to figure out, too. And so I think, like, all that combined left us in a situation where we were, like, maybe not as strong kind of culturally and, like, as a team as what we could have been, because everyone was being pulled in different directions. Scope was becoming a thing, and Sniper Media is becoming a thing, and it's like, I'm stepping down to CEO and Will's coming in. It's like, you know, I mean, it's a lot of shift. So I think that that was probably poorly timed by me and, like, the senior leadership team in terms of everything happening at once. So we just needed to come together and sort of reunite under a single banner on purpose and then kind of reignite and get a chance to, you know, shake hands and kiss babies. So that was really the purpose behind it. So I gave some speeches about, like, you know, where Sales Sniper came from, what I had to do to make it what it is, the things that I'd done prior. And I wrote down a list of questions on the plane that I thought people would want to ask. And so I was like, I would just answer these questions because people won't ask them.
Yeah. Yeah.
Because they just won't. But I'll. I'll answer them anyway. And so I did went through all that, and I think I gave, like. Like, for example, one of the questions, like, what is my job?
With your job?
Yeah. Yeah.
Like, people don't know what my job is.
Yeah.
You know, they just think I'm the guy that rocks up, goes on camera, and drives a fancy car.
Yeah.
You know, which is. Got a fucking. And they're not. They're not half wrong, but, you know, like, why did I make Will CEO? I made Will CEO because he is better at everything that I suck at.
Okay.
Like, I don't need people who are, like, better than me at the things that I'm good at because, like, the things that I'm good at are niche, but I'm really good at them. So it's like, I can continue to provide that function, you know, but the things that I'm bad at, like, that's what I need them for. And I'm not good at the CEO stuff. Yeah, I am, but I'm not.
So you're like. I think sort of the way I think about it is in regard to sort of acquisition. You're the tip of the spear in that you're really good at getting it going, setting it all up, but, like, keeping it going.
Yeah.
Not well. And I think that's not that you're not good at that. You're just not interested in. Therefore, you're not good at it.
Build it up, burn it down. Yeah, yeah. So, like, instead of, like. And that. That's an entrepreneurial trait. Entrepreneurs will find ways to burn their business to the ground just so they can rebuild it.
Yeah.
You know, and I saw that, and I was like, I really don't want to do that. And so that's what, like, James is for, and that's what Will's for. And all those kind of people, like. And me and Marco are just, like, Marco's unique beast because he could start, run, and maintain. Like, he could kind of do the whole lot. You could do the whole lot. But, you know, if I don't have kids, I might do the same, you know, Time.
And you were 27.
Yeah, yeah, I could be, but I'd rather make less money. Yeah, like, I've said that before. I just rather make less money, you know, and that's really hard, especially for, like, some of the more corporate people that we've brought in recently. I'm like, I'll just make less money. Like, what? Just make less, man. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, you know, I make. I make $1 million a year instead of two.
Oh.
Oh, no. Will you be okay? Like, you know, like, who gives a fuck? And as well, I think, like, having a fun work environment is really important. Like, I enjoy going to work. I hope everybody else does.
Yeah.
It's a reason we provide food. You know, it's like, come here and fucking enjoy yourself. Like, we don't require anything, but you do the best you can and, like, aim to do better all the time. And I think, like, that's what's missing from a lot of things. But I also think that that's a. That's a. The youth of the industry, which we're in, that's reflected upon that.
Yeah.
Because, like, they want to. They want to. They want to be thought of as the guy. And, like, I know that, like, I need to be thought of as the guy, but I've also, like, I'll tell the truth. Like, I'm not like, that guy.
Yeah.
Like, I'm the guy on camera doing all these things, but, like. And I'm really. I'm good at convincing people to do things. But these are the guys you want running the show.
Yeah.
You know, but I'll have the idea.
I think, to go full circle and sort of bring us back to our start point so we can Wrap it up. I think something that's really interesting that I observe here, when people come on. There's a lot of fear around making mistakes. There's a lot of concern, you know, like, I have to prove myself. You know, I'm expecting to be micromanaged, you know, because that's what their expectation is from elsewhere.
Yeah.
And then when they come into here and all the leadership team is like, there's a rough outline of your job, Go ahead and sort of finish filling it out. And people like, but what if I make mistakes? It's like, it's certain that you will.
Yeah.
I mean, with what we've given you, I'd be shocked if you didn't.
Yeah.
And if you.
And if you make the same mistake twice, that would be concerning. But, like, for sure make mistakes.
So what's the conversation? Like, I know we just hired, we hired a new content curator, so Mary. Yeah, I'm sure. And you know, Booj came from a bank and that dude was fucking terrified to make a coffee the wrong way when he first came in.
Yeah.
Now he barely rocks up.
Yeah.
In his defense, that's a fucking great job. This is a hard place to edit. Like, one of the things with editing video. And I'm sure that it's in many. It's relevant to the audience. I'm sure it's in, it's in many things, but it's narrative. So if you get interrupted, you don't get to start where you were.
Right.
Like, you can't be like, you know, if you're adding up numbers, you can stop adding up and you can have a conversation and then you can go back to where you were with narrative. Anything, even if it's just making reels. You're like, every interruption costs you like five to 10 minutes. You've got to go back, reestablish a story in your own head so that you can carry it on. So, like, that's why it's so much more efficient to be in an interruption free environment like home. But yeah, Mary's doing great. She's watching this, no doubt. But it's a case of like, you figure it out. Like, it's your job. Like, make it your own. Here's the outline of what we want. We want someone that can upload, analyze, do all the stuff and test and adjust. Like, see what, see what happens. See, like, if something doesn't come out at the right time, it's like, well, as long as that's not happening consistently, who cares? Right. Like you figured out, oh, that's, that's the mistake. That's a gap that I can plug.
Yeah.
I think, you know, there's a book called the Talent Code. And in the stuff I teach, it's basically the Bible. But the, the part on perfect practice, or like what they call deep practice is. Is about, you know, making mistakes and paying attention to those and going back, fixing it and then re. You know, re establishing where you were rather than just glossing over mistakes.
Yeah.
And you see, that's how people never get any better at anything is when you, you make a mistake and you're like, oh, well, made a mistake. Carry on. It's like, no, like, go back and address it. Not in a, like really critical. Like you made a mistake, you're in trouble. But let's figure out how that mistake got made because we're happy to have made it now. Now we know, we know how to fix that gap and we carry on.
I find that most of the large leaps that we've made, or I've made in my own development as a business owner is like through fuck ups.
Yeah.
Because you screw something up and you're like, oh man, I wanted to do that. And like, when you do something well, it's unlikely that you analyze it, but when you do something badly and it's like it's in your face, you kind of go, why did that happen?
Yeah.
And then you get an opportunity. And I. It sounds so fucking cliche and stupid, but whenever there's a big fuck up, I always go, all right, cool. This is probably going to be a good thing in three months because we haven't had one yet. That hasn't been a good thing in three months because we get to go, all right. And this is like, me and Marco work best in this scenario. There's a big fuck up or there's something like, let's say, like, for example, recently the first time we've ever done comprehensive budgets.
Okay.
Right. And so it's the first time that also people have been given a budget.
Mm.
Where it's like, hey, you have $120,000 to spend on this over the next 12 months. And like, you know, we didn't say it had to be over the year. And so we were in a situation where $300,000 is on our credit card in a week. We're like, what happened? Like, everyone spent their budget. We're like, ah, yeah, that makes sense like that. So me and Marco, so, you know, Tori, in our financial meeting, she comes up to me and she goes, everything's Fine. But we have this giant credit card bill. It's gonna affect cash flow for a couple weeks. We're like. I was like, if I make $100,000 this week, will it make it better? She's like, yes. And I was like, okay. So I went. I called Marco and I was like, we need to make a hundred thousand dollars cash this week. And he's like, okay. And then we both went our own separate ways, came together and made it. I think we made like 150. And so it's like sweet. And you know, and we learned a lesson of like, you know, don't like, be more specific with how you should spend the money. Or like, don't just automatically approve because it's in budget.
Yeah.
Because we didn't plan on everyone spending it all at once. And then like, from that we gain the ability to kind of like, we sort of re establish our dynamic ability to make cash.
Yeah.
Because like, I put me and Marco up against Duns, and then like, from that we gain the ability to kind of like, we sort of reestablish our dynamic ability to make cash.
Yeah.
Because like, I put me and Marco up against anybody on the planet. Put me and him in a room and say, you need a million dollars. Be like, what's the time frame? Like, sweet. We'll figure that out. Me and him can figure that out. And like there's.
And. But that YouTube love that. Yeah. It's not only was that you, like, as you've sort of alluded to, like, you really. That150,000 is very unnecessary. Like, it was great to have and certainly not saying no. But you enjoyed the process. I like making that way more than like, oh, it turns out we got it. But I had a goddamn good.
I really enjoyed it. Having to miracle money.
Yeah.
But I've liked that for a long time, and I've always been able to do it. It's always been a little superpower of mine where it's like figuring out ways to make short term cash. Yeah. We're really good at that. I like it. It's a whole. It's interesting. Interesting equation to solve. And then you have to have a look at everything at your disposal. And then how do you do it without fucking yourself?
Yeah.
Because like anyone, like, I could go out and sell $500,000 worth of coaching.
Yeah.
But I still have to deliver that.
Deliver it.
Yeah.
So how do you write things that are low deliverable, high value.
Yeah.
And then you've got to kind of get real creative and outside the box and start looking at things in different ways. And, you know, I think it's a really interesting thing. I think everyone should do it. Like, every business owner should be, like, you know, one. One of the thought experiments that I've learned from a really talented CRO of a very large company, he was like, every quarter, he sits down his marketing team and his sales team and says, you need to send me a plan of what you do if you had zero marketing budget for the next six months. Yeah, yeah, that's a really interesting way to play it. And so I made all the sales guys do it. Like, write your plan. There's no leads for three months. What do you do? Because you got to make money, you know, and so, like, it forces you to kind of think outside the box. And that's where I think usually most of the best ideas come from. Like, I came back from just having face to face with everybody in Dallas. Like, I came back with, like, a lot of really, really solid ways of tweaking our business model to be far more effective. And it's just because, like, you're able to input information from all different people and people, like, on the ground doing the thing, you kind of get a little bit of different insight. Different insight. Different insight after a few conversations. And you can go, I can see what needs to change here to make this more optimal. And that's the fun of, I guess, getting to do that.
Yeah, for sure. All right.
Okay. That's. That's the place to wrap it up.
Sounds good.
That's it for another episode of Coffee is for Closes. Remember, hit us in the comments. Let us know what more you want to hear. If you're still watching here, you're. You're one of the OGs.
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