How to Coach Sales Skills - CICF Episode 154 Recap
Matt Ryder, Will Hingson, and Pat Stewart discuss coaching sales skills, drawing on their backgrounds in special operations. They cover how to train salespeople, what motivates them, and how people actually learn on the job.
Hey, guys, what's up? Matt here from Coffee is for Closers. We have a very special yet somewhat exclusive podcast for everyone today. We have Will Hingson in town from the US we have Mr. Pat Stewart from canine paradigm fame. And that one YouTube video that we.
Did that we said we're going to do regularly, one time.
Well, regularly enough.
I mean, this is two.
Yeah, yeah, this is two. Well, we did another one, but it didn't record. Yeah, my bad. Yeah, my bad. Booja's fault. Anyway. So everyone here is part of Sales Sniper now. Everyone here is ex special operations. Anyone who should be here is Ben. However, we didn't have a fourth chair.
Logistics problem.
Yep, there was a logistics issue. I blame Ben because he is the CEO.
It was Ben's job. He had one, one job.
So what we're going to talk about is sales persuasion, military, probably lots and lots of anchorman references and. Yeah, enjoy. Ex Special Forces sniper turned entrepreneur. I've scaled numerous businesses. Figures. My name is Matt Ryder. This is my podcast and I'm telling you to put that coffee down. All right. So, Will, when did you get in?
I got in this morning. So I've been up for roughly coming up on like a day and three quarters with about three hours of sleep.
Okay. Which is, you know, saved up for a little mini Red Bull. Time for a five hour energy drink.
Yeah, it's the best formula for a good podcast is sleep deprivation.
Well, the last one you had Covid.
I had Covid. I don't even remember what got asked and what I said. Nobody should listen to that podcast. This one remains to be seen.
We'll put the link up here.
Yeah, the one that just says don't listen to it. So if you click on that, that's on you. That's like the. Your phone has been in has a virus. You should click on this like you know what you're doing.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not aware of the websites that cause that. However, I have heard of them. Something to do with the hamster.
I don't know.
Okay, so you guys have sort of. Not really met.
No, we just met outside.
Yeah. Congratulations on the enormity of your success of, you know, being the tripod in the pyramid. So I'd love to. I'd love Will to give everyone a background of yourself and then pack and learn and we can all learn that we're all relatively similar human beings.
Yeah. So spent 10 years special operations community of that time, five of that was in the Marine Corps. Came up through as a recon Marine was there as kind of like the transition into MARSOC happened and all that stuff. Did a whole bunch of deployments there, got out, thought I was going to be a travel writer. Went back to school surfing in Southern California twice a day. And then got a call from an old friend who was like, hey man, I've got this kind of thing that I'm on overseas. We're working for the folks that we're working for. You want to come over? And I was like, yeah, it's very.
Vague to say we're working for the folks. Have they, have they changed names numerous times?
I'm not even sure what you're talking about. So he's like, hey, it'll take you about nine months to get this clearance. In that time I'll plug into some stateside stuff. So I ended up kind of training folks that were getting ready to deploy, doing that with a bunch of really good friends, and then deployed a whole bunch more after that for the next five years. Got out and then started up my first business. We've talked about this. Matt and I have a shockingly similar background. So I got out and I was like, ah, cool. I have no, I have a business degree, which is basically that degree should have said speed and googling before the timer runs out because that's how I answered all those questions. So started up a gym, built that up and sold that to a venture capital firm.
Then was cmo, by the way, incredibly impressive to sell a gym to a venture capital.
So that was a bit of dumb luck if I'm honest about it.
Oh, I believe it.
So it was, it was pure. Because no venture capital firm is like, oh yeah, I want a series of gems.
Yeah, what, like a series of poorly cash flowing, low profit entities that require a tremendous amount of people and infrastructure to run.
Yeah, exactly right. As you well know, we got lucky. So that one was interesting, right, because I think in a gym, as you well know, like, you can run that as well as you possibly can. It's still a tough business to make. So I was in a town where they had. It was like our next biggest, I don't know, rival or whatever you want to call it. It's like gyms, who cares? But they were like, you know, kind of one of our folks that we were competing against and like total, total adjustable market, all that stuff. They had partnered with a VC firm. They had a national idea, they were going national with it and they wanted to acquire the next, like the. We were their target, right? They wanted to own Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is where I was. So because of that they, they started to approach. I got a little bit lucky. They thought they were going to just steamroll me and they would have, I would have gotten just absolutely crushed. The X factor into this is my brother in law. My whole wife's family is much smarter than I am. So he was the, at the time, he was the top mergers and acquisitions attorney for software companies.
Okay.
That's in Chicago. So he, he walked me through that sale. It was an incredibly frustrating experience for me. It had a good outcome, but the whole time, like I would have gotten just annihilated.
Yeah.
And they, they knew that. They just didn't expect it. So I got lucky. Then my daughter was born, became a full time sales guy. Cause I was like, I can't run a company and be a good dad. At the time, like I just knew like I, I kind of overly commit.
Yeah.
And then just go hard in the paint as we probably all do. And I, I was very concerned at that point in time that I was gonna be a good dad. So I was like, oh, I'll go to work. What I thought I was gonna do, it's like, yeah, I'll go work for somebody else, help grow their company for, you know, three to five years until my daughter goes to school. And then at that point I will have thought of something of the next venture, make sure it doesn't compete with whatever I've been doing just out of, you know, integrity and being a semi decent human. And then I'll go start that up and, and go from there. Which all changed. And here I am.
Yeah. And Pat, similar rundown.
Well, not dissimilar, I suppose.
Shocking.
Yeah. 12 years in special forces went straight.
12 is more than 10.
It is, it's 12 and a half. 12 and a half if we're gonna push it. I broke my back in 2011 and so that was kind of like I was on the downward spiral from there. So I stuck around for four years after that and was on like a critical skills waiver doing, you know, niche stuff that they couldn't. It started out they were like, oh, Pat will look after you and like keep you around. But then the guy who was meant to replace me got killed in action. So it was like, oh, like we, we do actually need you to stay here. So yeah, I stuck around and then kind of ventured into the dog space and was into that sort of, you know, long story short was over the four years that I stayed in and couldn't deploy, but was in training roles and admin. Like, I was the platoon side. Like, I was the sniper platoon sergeant. I basically kind of figured out how to turn my hobby into a job. And my wife was a really successful tattooist at the time. And so when I left the army, it was like, we're going to have a kid, same deal, you know, And I was going to be mostly home dad and she, like, she was going to have a career and I was going to have a job. And then at few years in, it kind of turned around and her body started to fall apart. Because, you know, tattooing is a really limited thing. You can only do it so much. And then I started a podcast with a friend of mine, Glenn, and it went the other way. It was like, okay, now she's got a job that she tattoos now and again. And then I had this career in dogs, but Covid, just for everybody, right? So, like, mostly I was working in the States, teaching seminars, that kind of stuff. It's really limited in what I do. Like, it's not very. What I do in dogs is not very popular in Sydney or in Australia really. So I have a really limited kind of market here and the US markets worldwide. It's a huge market, but like, in any one spot, it's not really there. So it requires a lot of travel. So Covid just kind of put an end to that. And now that, like, you know, pandemic's mostly over and we can travel again, I'm just kind of not in a position to do that. Like, I just don't. And I don't really want to be traveling right now. It just doesn't seem like a wise time to be constantly going overseas. You know, like, two weeks of every six. Doesn't seem like a wise time with a six month old baby. We had, you know, we had another kid and like, the idea that, yeah, there's a war in Europe currently, it just doesn't seem like there is. It just doesn't seem like a wise time to be spending big chunks of time from away from home.
So that's interesting, man. Like, because I think I. One of the things that I resonate with is like, for me, it was like, oh, I shouldn't be running a company because I'll be a bad dad. And that actually switched for me. Right. And I. And I kind of found that that homeostasis or balance, that worked for me. What was the thing that shifted for you where you're like, oh, I don't want to be traveling anymore.
Well, so when Rip my Oldest son was a baby baby. I, you know, no one wanted me to travel. No one knew me, so that wasn't on the cards. And I was home a lot and spent, you know, like the, the kind of time that you can't get back with kids and, you know, so like my current, my current baby son, Axel, he's six, seven months old, and they're different every week. It's a different. Yeah, the milestones happen every week and I just didn't want to miss any. And as Rick got older, and he was probably three before I started really traveling and would be gone for two or three weeks at a time regularly, not that much changes in that time. And he can handle missing you and he doesn't like, you know, it's not as big an impact on a kid to be gone for that period of time. But like, right now, you know, a two weeks to a six month old is a big percentage of their life. Yeah. And they really change. And so I find myself thinking pretty critically about you when someone invites me to come overseas. Money's not a big motivator for me. I know that's a, that, that's a weird thing to say on this podcast, this business. Right. And I've never, you know, I make plenty of money. I make a lot of money, but it's.
Which is probably why it's not a big thing.
Yeah. And, and I say from this incredible position of privilege, you know, having an army pension and blah, blah, blah, like, oh, I'm not worried about the money. And it's because I'm like, I get a bunch of it.
Right.
Like, and, and you know, I work.
I'm not worried about watches either.
You know what I mean?
Or new cars.
But so it became more now, like I find myself when people ask me to, you know, travel to do stuff, I'm like, how much money's in that? Because, like, it's gotta be worth my while to go where it used to be. Like, yeah, that sounds like fun. Like, why not? I'll totally come now. I've, like, I do a big cost benefit analysis and it's much, you know, there's a lot more in the stay home pile than there is in the travel pile or column. So, yeah, that's, that's kind of it. And, and so, yeah, I've come on board here because I just like hanging out with Matt and he, he made up a fake job for me.
So.
You're doing really well, which I'm killing it at my fake job.
Yeah. Yeah, we got a Chair.
Yeah, I got a chair.
I mean, that's the winners.
It is. I set off. I bagged a spot in the office.
I think it's. It's really funny, though, because a lot of, like, mine and yours progression, and mine and yours progression. Like, we've obviously known each other for. I mean, God, it's gotta be 15 years, maybe 17 years.
You were at my house when I came home from Afghanistan in 2005.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
Like, was that at the party?
Yeah.
So the first time I met Pat, Right. Me and Pat were not friends to begin with. Right. That's a little bit chill. More chilled out than what he used to be. I'm probably a lot less annoying than what I used to be.
And.
And I remember I was wearing, like, we were at a party and I was just wearing, like, a letterman jacket because it was like a USA High school. Back to school, back to school. So I had my letterman jacket from high school, which obviously very rare thing over here, but I still had it and I wore it, and I just had that with, like, shorts and no shirt. And he goes, this is the first time I ever met him. He goes, you're not fat, you're just blank. And I was like, is this guy really? Yeah, so that was the first time. But like. But then, like, you know, we became friends and we. We can. We can tell the story offline about. About how Pat became to respect me as a human, but then sort of, like, became closer friends, like, as we got out of the army and I started training and stuff like that. But then, like, we had a very distinct. At the same time, both of us were like, Pat was like, oh, I'm going to try and be the guy in the dog industry. And I was like, I'm going to try and be the guy in the sales industry. Both of us had the exact same approach, which is we will just do a metric boatload of content which is purely designed to give value. Then from there we will try and take market share. It was the identical strategy. I would say Pat was probably a year ahead of me. I sort of. I think I got the idea from stuff that you were doing. I was like, oh, fuck, that's working over there. Yeah. And so Pat very quickly took a lot of market share within what you were doing. Yeah, you want to kind of explain that.
Well, so we, you know, a friend of mine, Glenn, who I was training dogs with, you know, just kind of bite work is tricky. You know, you need multiple people and that kind of stuff. So we were just Kind of. We had no business interest together at all, but we just would train dogs. He did a podcast with someone else and I think he got the bug for it and was like, hey, you want to start a podcast? And. And I was. And. And in the dog industry at the time, there weren't many at all. And so we were. Industry. I think that's a multi billion dollar industry if you want to count pets. It's madness. Yeah. Like, if you count pets, it's a multi billion dollar industry when you get into food and all of that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, he got the bug for the podcast and was like, hey, you want to start a podcast? And we had a couple of false starts, but then eventually we got it going and it became really popular. And so in the dog space, it's probably the most. Or not the most. It's one of the most popular podcasts. We get about 40,000 downloads an episode.
Okay.
Yeah. And that kind of just sort of bought me authority in that space. Like, I'm good. I am good on the tools, but I'm a better teacher. And that's what you get to people. Like, I'm better at instructing how to do that kind of stuff. And so it gave me the leg up of people being able to go like, yeah, he knows what he's talking about, but he's doing a good job of explaining it to me in audio only. Imagine what he could do, like, with dogs. And I've got a lot of online, I got a lot of me actually training dogs. Content. But people need help physically. So that's kind of the limitation. The bottleneck when you talk business wise is like, I created, and I got told not to do this by my mentor. My mentor in dog training was this guy, Bart Bellon, who, you know, is arguably the most famous, best dog trainer ever. And right when he kind of trained me, he was like, I'm not going to do seminars anymore. So it was like perfect timing. Like, I just kind of slotted in and got to steal his credibility, essentially. He lent to me his credibility. But the issue is, you know, no matter how much content you put out, and I have an online course, it's done really well, that got us through covert and all that kind of stuff. But there's always demand for in person training. Like, people. And as a decoy, like, I'm mostly in the bite work space. Someone's got to get bitten, right. And that's like, it's been weird because I kind of got to this pinnacle and. And it's been annoying with COVID Like my career was headed in a particular way and it's not that I wanted to get to there. It was like I could see where it was going. I'm happy to, you know, can fall kind of anywhere, but I could see where it's going. And now it's impossible because my dog got old. The things I was going to do with him, I can't do. Like, it just kind of a lot of things outside of mine or anyone else's control. It's kind changed it quite a bit, which is very frustrating. But we still have the podcast, still do it, and I'm still very much in the dog space and I'm still doing seminars and stuff. I'm just more particular about where. Where I do them and when I do them and that kind of stuff.
So there was something you said that I perked my ears up, especially with this crowd. Right. Which is. You're like, yeah, I'm really good on the tools, but I'm also very good at explaining it. And I think that tends to be pretty consistent with a lot of our group. I would love to hear from your perspective as well as Matt's perspective, because I know what my process is on taking stuff in so where I understand it well enough that I can then go teach it in a way that can be easily consumed, taken in, and then exponentially put people ahead. I would love to hear from both you guys kind of how you view that process for yourself personally, to get to the point where you can teach it.
Well, I like to. I think I'm relatively obsessive, which is, I think, very similar. Like, me and Pat once were like, hey, you want to lose weight? We're like, yeah, okay, we'll have a competition to see who can work out the most in 60 days. And so we had these meters, you know, like the, like the. It was, you know, you get like points, right? You do a heart rate thing and depending on what heart rate you have is like how many points you get. So I bought an assault bike and like, you can. It's like live updates, right? And so I'd finish an hour workout in assault bike, just punishing it. And then I would log into my app and I would see him working out, walk straight back down, right?
It actually got unhealthy.
Oh, yeah, it was ridiculous. Like, I was working out. I was working out four to six hours a day whilst doing full time everything. Yeah, this is Ross doing sales calls. And then like, Pat ended up beating me. And like the last Day, I was like. I'd worked out 48 hours prior. I'm now mathematically eliminated.
Right.
Like, I. I can no longer win. And so I called all the boys, and I was like, if you see Pat or talk to him, just be like, hey, that's so ma running, like, down there. It's so weird. Like, what's he doing?
Like that he told me he. He called. Like, he called at 48 hours earlier. It's like, I can't. In the time that I have, even at max points, I cannot catch up to where you are. And I was like, that sounds like something. Someone who's trying to trick me into being complacent would say. So until the midnight of the actual challenge ending, I was out running hill sprints until midnight. Right. Like, I finished work. It was a Thursday night where I worked those at nights. So I was, like, on my way home, went straight to the park and ran the hills from, like, nine till midn.
You were working? Doing bite work?
Yeah.
Like, not easy work.
Yeah.
Yeah. So that's why I have. I have out me tattooed right there. Because that, like, that was the bet.
Yeah. So strong work.
Yeah. So. Yeah.
All right. So obsessiveness is. Is the first thing. Would you say it's the same pet?
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
I've noticed for me, it's the same thing as well. Right. And that first phase, I like to categorize it as, like, the absorb everything phase.
Yeah.
Like, how do I dive into this and absorb everything? What's next for you?
For me, I just have to understand the thought process of the person who's done it really, really well. So I just have to be able to ask, why? Why, why, why, why, why, why? Or if I don't have access to them, I have to be able to rationally write down what the process is. Like, physically write it out and then go, like, what. Why would you do it this way? What are the pros and cons of this? And then, like, when I was learning, I just wrote out the script, and then I was like, okay, why would this. Why would this be this way? This makes. Like, I don't. I know it works, and I know it must make sense for a certain reason. Why does it do it make sense? And then once I can understand that, then you're. You're. You're done. Because then you're like, oh, not only do I understand the how, but I understand the why. And then I can start to attribute that thought process to everything relating to it. And so it starts to make everything very, very clear. And then you can tailor your training to get better at it, at the thought processes that you understand, either the most or the least, depending on if you want to lean into your strengths or, like, lean into your weaknesses, you know. And so, like with any pq, like, when I was selling, I knew my natural strength was objection handling, so I didn't. I basically ignored everything Jeremy told me about objection handling until it was time for me to learn his way of objection healing because mine was so strong as it was. So I just focused on, like, the parts of it that I knew would create the highest value proposition change for me and then just dove through step by step.
Yeah. And to be fair, Jeremy's way of objection handling is quite elegant. The way that he does it. Right. It. It was actually the thing in any PQ that took me the longest to understand of Jeremy's. Besides, and this will sound funny, the way that he actually utilizes situation questions, which is the same way you'd. You utilize hooks.
Yeah.
That took me. Those two things took me a very long time to understand. And you had a process that was a little bit more. Especially the way I've heard you describe it is. Is a little bit more blunt, a.
Little bit more hammer fisted.
I wouldn't say it is.
It's pretty blunt. I teach sales for dummies.
Yes.
Right. Like, if you ever look at Marco and like, incredibly elegant sales.
Oh, yeah.
Beautiful. I have no to give about it. Like, I have no intention to learn it. I don't care. It's beautiful. I will look at it. I will listen to it in awe. I have no to give. Right.
That's because you shouldn't have to come in as head of sales and then learn not only Jeremy style, but then your style and then Marco style.
Yeah.
And then so I had to decode everybody's style so I could understand what was being taught inside of sales sniper. So I then could actually just coach our reps. Yeah. It actually took me, like, months and months.
Well, the way I figured Jeremy's so good, I was like, that is 10 years away. No matter what I do, it's 10 years. Right. So I have to figure out the way that gets me the best in the shortest possible time. So I created an EPQ for dummies. Like, fully blown. This is the stupidest way you can possibly do this. But, like, this is extremely effective.
And.
And then you reduce. Like, it's got so many things in there that now I don't do many of them at all because Like I train anything, right? You have all these tricks that you use to like bypass skill, and then the more skilled you get, you don't need the tricks anymore. And so there's pros and cons to doing it in each way. But, like, that's why I can get like very average salespeople to become quite good very quickly is because the way in which I explain things is the stupidest possible way to do it, but it is really effective.
Well, and I think it goes back to something that you mentioned there, which is like kind of titrating up with skills as you go so it can become more elegant because that. You taught me a hook a long time ago when I was selling on one of our accounts where it was like, hey, man, this will sound super random, but like, most realtors I find are like either watch guys or car guys. Which one do you tend to lean towards? Yeah, I pulled that out the other day on a sales call because I was like, oh, it's the perfect spot for it. So I think it's having some of those things in your back pocket where you're like, this is where this is the right place. As opposed to just utilizing it every single time.
It allows you to price anchor so you can establish a value of something that is essentially not a value like a watch. Who cares, right? If you're not willing to. If I'm willing to spend 50,000 on a watch and I'm not willing to spend 5,000 on a course, I am a moron.
Yeah.
So you can just essentially price and value anchor and then you can bring that back. So it, like, it's a, it's again, it's a tool of the trade that you can use. And there's probably like sort of like a ubiquitous concept across dog training or whatever, but it's like this is something you can use once you get good enough, you will not have to use it.
Yeah.
Something I've noticed you have and I'm guessing all the, all the guys in sales have. And it's the same as what, what I do. And pretty much everybody that teaches or presents is that you have like a hundred three minute bits and they're. They're in the Rolodex.
Yeah.
And someone says something and you go like, here's, here's this. And I've said it a hundred times. It seems, it seems like it's genuine here now. And it is genuine. I mean it like, I'm not like a fake person, but I've, I've rehearsed this Commerce. This is for you. This is a first time conversation. But I've had this conversation hundreds, hundreds of times. And here's the bit that comes out and I present you with that. And I see that in the sales calls that I've seen you guys do. And it's like there's recurring themes and because you're only. You're typically having the sales call with one person one time, they don't see your other calls with other people that it to them. It is not a recurring theme. It's genuine every time. And I see that like it's. And that's a lot of content. Like 103 minute bits. You know, 300 minutes is a lot of things you can pull out. And so there's a lot to build that. It's not like that's easy, but that's, I think the way that I see you guys do it. And when I teach it's the same. Someone asks a question, I'm like, yeah, I got that. Like I. This is not the first. It's rare that anyone asks me a question for the first time.
Yeah.
These days, right?
100.
Plenty of times I've been like, oh, I'll have to get back to you on that one. But then for me, how many times.
Have you just come up with something on the spot and you're like, that was really?
Yeah. Like you have that out of body experience where you're watching yourself answer it.
It's like that scene in Old School where Will Ferrell goes up on there. He just starts talking. He's like, I blacked out. What happened? He's like that. It's like, oh, I gotta get that zoom recording. I gotta figure out what I just said.
The first time I did that congruence hook, I was like, so it's like I already. Salespeople, they have that congruence of speech in action. In order to be a good sales guy, you kind of have to get out, get outta your own way. Because you help people get outta their way for a living, right? And they go, yeah, yeah, congruence. And I go, yeah, congruence. And then I use that the whole way through. Anchor it with like, hey, like let's say we are to help you become that really congruent, consistent salesperson. You're able to make that extra 20k a month. What would you do? So we tie the outcome to being that person and then the same thing with like the consequence of never achieving it. And then from there when they give me like an objection that makes sense. Man. Because like, but for us to be that really congruent salesperson that gets everyone out of their way, we have to first learn to get ourselves out of our own way. So what do we need to do to put yourself in a position to be able to. Right. So you can just start riffing that and then all of a sudden you start changing. You start like, like changing the decision making from buying something to being someone who can achieve. And so it makes like a binary choice. Do I be a good sales guy or a bad sales guy? Because a bad sales guy can't even sell themselves. A good sales guy can sell themselves. So just do it. And that's like, as soon as you start figuring stuff like that out, then you can start developing that for each type of person. And then that's kind of when you start going down the rabbit hole. And then you can just listen. You can hear a few different trigger words from the individual. And you're like, oh, I know the call that I'm having now. And then you just shift and then you have that call.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
Which goes back to what you're saying. Right. Which is like, I have to understand the why behind what I'm doing. And then once I understand that why enough. Right. I understand like, what am I actually looking for here? Right. Then from there I can go. There's a variety of different ways I can get that. What makes the most sense?
Yeah.
And then I'd start playing with and kind of going from there. Was it similar for you and kind of your process and totally break that down.
Yeah.
And, and, and not only with like training people, but even in actually training dogs. It's the same thing. And that's what I teach in that. First thing I gotta do is figure out your motivation. Right? Like, how am I going to. How am I going to reward you as a dog? Right? Like how am I. What do you want the ball? Do you want a game? Do you want food? Like, what is it that I can pay you with later? And they give that to you for free in the start. And then I've got to develop a system of communication prior to that so that I can say, that's correct. Here's the payment. And now I've got everything I need to manipulate the dog to do whatever I want with it. And so it's the exact same people.
So you got like status, money, significance, you know, like those sort of needs of people that you figure out their motivators. Then you can figure out the language patterns which give Them that.
Yeah, that's why when you got deep into this stuff and I was so, you know, dog training is behavioral manipulation. That's what you like. You're manipulating dogs. But the processes.
We prefer persuasion.
Yeah, that's right. So. So in my space, it's not at all. We know that's what we're doing. I'm manipulating this dog.
You can't say punishment.
Yeah, that's right.
I listen to your podcast.
Yeah. But it's. It's incredibly similar, and it all goes back to, you know, behaviorism. It's Skinner and it's Thorndike, and it's all those people. And. Yeah, in the animal space, you know, worked on a lot of rats, and he worked on pigeons and dogs and that kind of stuff, but he never give about rats, pigeons and dogs. Like, it was. It's mammal brains and it's people that he's gonna do that stuff with. His biggest client was a CIA, Right. So, like, it's. It's.
Never heard of him.
Manipulation is. Well, what do you guys call it?
You call it persuasion.
Persuasion. It. It all works the same. Mammal brains and mammal brains. What do you want? How do I show you a path to getting it? That's it.
The. The. The difference. And I'll articulate this for this conversation because it's probably important for the listener, which is like, the difference between persuasion and manipulation is persuasion is just something that you already wanted to do or kind of clearing the path in order for you to get there, whereas manipulation may not be in your best interest.
Yeah. And. And maybe I should use persuasion as well. But it is the same. It's that, like, hey, there's a thing that you want, and I'm going to show you how to get that. But in order to get that, it's via the thing that I want. Yeah. And it's. It's just motivation is the key that that is in dog training and then in training people, it's all about motivation. Without that, you have nothing. And so when I figure out, what is it that you want? Okay, now give it to you for free a few times. And then I go, in order to get it again, now you got to do something for me, and I'll give it to you again.
Right.
So here's a question I have for both of you guys. Right? So now you understand what's going on behind that. You're trying different stuff. There are a variety of good teachers out there and coaches and methodologies and way more bad. How do you start to wade through what's good and what's bad for you inside of that process as you're starting to get to that point of mastery.
Like, I learn in a very particular way though. So, like, I cannot absorb anything I read. I absorb everything. I hear everything. Okay. Every conversation I have where I feel like it's an important conversation, I will retain basically 100% of it.
So every conversation you and I have ever had. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. I mean, one or two of them.
Yeah, at least one of them.
Yeah. It's so like, I have a very good retention. So like, for me, like, that way of learning and being able to interact with the person is extremely beneficial to me. So like, how it's presented is really important for, like, you can give me the greatest book on sales. I will get 14 pages in and go, what? What? I didn't read any of that. Right. Because my brain just does not work that way. So I have to be able to like, lay it out. That's why I like whiteboards and stuff and why you can see all this mad scribbling. Because, like, that is how my, my brain works in like flashes of ideas and like clouds and so like, I have to be able to put it out there visually and then make sense of it myself and then be able to ask questions about it. So for me, it's like the delivery mechanism is really important. So like something like an inner circle would work fairly well for me. But like, for me, like, having access to Jeremy for even four sessions was worth more to me than like, like for me personally than doing a group training model. Like when I was trying to learn some YouTube marketing, it was 30,000 for the year. I said, hey, instead of me going to four groups a week, I would rather pay you 30,000 for five one on one sessions.
Yeah.
And I was like, are you happy with that? He was like, I was like, just, I just want to see you once every six weeks and I just have questions I need to ask you and then I'll be fine, I'll never bother you. And he was like, okay, so that's kind of. And then I started to be able to dissect some of the processes. So the delivery mechanism for me is super important because I just want to ask. I have like four questions and it's just like, I need this, this, this, and this. And then those four questions will unlock all the things that I don't understand and then I can move on.
Yeah, it's really interesting because that's so different than a lot of the way that like, the coaching consulting industry normally runs, at least in. In kind of the Internet online world. Like the rest of the world is a little bit different inside of like, historic age old businesses.
Yeah, but. But if you look at our staff portal and how I've laid it out, that's how I learn. So it's very short videos that have a high level of intent and a very precise outcome for each video. So, like, I have to absorb information in small chunks that are ultra precise that then, like, stack on top of each other to unlock a concept.
So how do you get, like a baseline understanding of anything new where you don't have exposure to it? Like sales, you had a ton of exposure. But, like, if we took. I don't have a great example, so hopefully you do have one in your head. But something that is relatively new that you want to grasp, let's say crypto and understanding that, how do you start with that and then get that baseline?
If I become obsessed with it. If I become obsessed with it, I'll just consume all information that I can get my hands on, hopefully over a video, and then hopefully I can ask someone questions about it. So I was lucky that David would answer my questions.
Yeah.
Right. So, and David's like a crypto quadrillionaire. So I had access to a highly skilled individual. But, like, I got obsessed enough with it to where the first thing I did was get a coach. So not David, I got somebody else because, like, he was too busy. So I was like, okay, this guy can explain all the key concepts to me. I paid him a thousand bucks for 45 minutes. Seven times.
Yep.
And then that gave me enough of a baseline to then when I could just go watch a bunch of videos. And then I just started playing around with stuff. So I was like, okay, I'll just. I'm willing to lose a thousand bucks. So I was like, just moving money all over the space. And then if I didn't know how to do it, I would do a loom video, send it to the coach, go, what have I done wrong? And he goes, oh, you got to remember how these interact. And I was like, all right, sweet. I know how to do that. But. And two weeks later, I knew crypto.
Yeah.
Enough to where I could do what I wanted to do. As soon as I could do what I wanted to do, I was done.
Yeah. This is really interesting because I basically take in stuff the same way where it's like, I want the baseline of information, the foundations, and then I just want to put it into action and, like, I want to mess up, because when I mess up, I can ask better questions, or if I don't know stuff, then I'll clear those things up. And it's like five to depends. It can be like 100 questions depending on how complex it is or how terrible I am at it, to get to mastery. But that foundation is key. And I think when I look at like our experience, like, it's, it's the thing that I have reflected on a lot going, what allowed me to have any sort of like success that I have now. What is that foundation? Because I did not do it alone as much as like, I could say, oh yeah, I built these businesses, blah, blah, blah, Like, I, that's true. But I also had a ton of people over the years mentor me, pour into me, make sure I understood stuff, make sure I had it. And then obviously with our collective backgrounds, like, the stakes are so high, you learn how to ask the right questions.
Yeah, but how fun is mentoring someone who really cares?
That's us. So I've been mentored and I've mentored people and never have I ever asked to be mentored. And nobody who's ever asked me to mentor them have I. It's always okay. Like, I think that kind of happens really naturally because as an expert, you see someone trying to become one, you're like, I can help you here, right? And it's like. And they're, they're never people that come to you and they're like, please teach me this. You're like, right, but it's like, people are like, hey man, I'm about 90 there. You reckon you can fill me in on that last 10? I'm like, yes, totally can. Right? You show me that you've totally motivated yourself, you've pushed yourself forward. I'll plug whatever gaps I can for you, right? It's when people are like, I want you to teach me everything.
It's like, yeah, I agree on the everything, right? But I, like, I, I actually asked with the head of our board, Kim. I was like, hey, can I get a. And I was like, what's the reasonable request you can't say no to. I was like, can I get a fortnightly 30 minute call? Right? And I have like, yeah, but no.
But timeout from the game. Because before you ask that, like, I had him come to me with like, holy, Will is doing some stuff.
Yeah, that's right.
Like you'd sent him. Hey, man, this is what I've done. This is what I've done. This is what I've done. Can I get feedback? Feedback. So, like, you'd already, like, presented him with, like.
Oh, yeah.
Three. Yeah. So, like, for you then going, Austin, it's a. It's a. It's a foregone conclusion at that point. And if I have a look at, like, the people who I've mentored closely within Sales Sniper, which I was one of them. Yeah. For sure. It's like, road. Right. Yash as well. Like, Yash is. You know what I mean? But, like, it's the people who are like. And even, like. Like, Maggie recently was like, hey, I'd love to do so. I was like, yeah, because, like, I can see you have really tried to crack this nut.
Yeah.
And there are a couple of things that are missing, and I can fix that.
Yeah.
You know, so. But it's like, if someone comes to me and is like, just like, even if you offer me money, I'm probably gonna say no, because you haven't gone far enough down the road to where, like, what I present to you is a value to you because it's either gonna go so far over your head, and then I have to dumb it all down and start from scratch, which I really don't have any interest in doing.
I agree with.
Like, even if you offer me money, I'm probably gonna say no, because you haven't gone far enough down the road to where, like, what I present to you is a value to you because it's either going to go so far over your head, and then I have to dumb it all down and start from scratch, which I really don't have any interest in doing.
I agree with that.
Like, you have to go down the road. Like, you know, so that's. And that's all part of it.
I. I think that's a piece of it.
Right.
Which is ultimately, I think, where I was probably driving towards. I didn't totally know where I was going to take this point, but here we are. Which is, I think, once you get to a level where you are foundationally good in order to hit mastery, I can point to anything that I've achieved, any level of mastery based on the equality of the questions that I've asked the people that are already past that. So, like, what I do right now with Kim, because, one, I just respect his time, but two, only have so much time myself, is I think a lot about what are the questions that would make sense to bring him. And I have my notes app on my iPhone, and I just write those questions, and I go, what are the Highest leverage. I used to do this with you two when we had the. When our weekly was more you mentoring me before that kind of switched into, you know, us working on growth and all of that stuff for the company, which was like, what are the questions that make sense to bring you here that I think you will enjoy answering? We'll stretch a little bit of the way you think about that, but will also allow me to fill in those gaps and build kind of these mental models that will move me forward and actually not waste your time where it's actually more beneficial to you, I think.
I totally agree. And one of the worst things people can do is when you go to the expert and you ask a question and you already know the answer for it. Like, when, when I catch someone doing that to me, I'm like, you're wasting both our time. You want a pat on the back? That's what you're actually looking for is a pat on the back. And it doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't at all. But, like, I don't need to be. I don't need someone to be nice to me, like, in that space, like. And the guy that I first started with who really taught me the, the biggest, first chunk of your really high end dog training stuff, one day I really got with the way he was talking to me and, and what he was doing, and I kept making mistakes, but it was a very technical thing that I was doing and it was my first time doing it and I got pretty angry about it and was visibly like, pretty. And he came over to me and he said, hey, we can stop any minute you want. We can just stop doing this. Like, you've asked me to train you. This is how I do it. If you want to just go hang out, we can go have a beer, right? But then we're done here. So do you want to go hang out and just be friends or do you want to shut up? And I was like, I'll get back to work. And I was like, that's. That's how I want to be treated. I don't want it. I don't need someone that's got to coddle me. And that's not for, for everyone. Absolutely. That's not for everyone. But that's what I hate, when people come to you and they ask a question to what do you want to shut up? And I was like, I'll get back to work. And I was like, that's. That's how I want to be treated. I don't want it I don't need someone that's got to coddle me. And that's not for everyone. Absolutely. That's not for everyone. But that's what I hate, when people come to you and they ask a question to appear like they're asking a good question, and they know the answer, and, you know, they know the answer, and it's just this will appear like they're asking a question. Question, and they know the answer, and, you know, they know the answer. And it's just this theater. It's like, hey, don't let's not do this. Come to me with. You really don't understand. But I think that's, like, an element of vulnerability where people, you know, like, I've come to you with three questions that you answered so easily. I want to, like, have a bit of confirmation of a force, right? So that. To show you theater, it's like, hey, don't let's not do this. Come to me with shit you really don't understand. But I think that's, like an element of vulnerability where people, you know, like, I've come to you with three questions that you answered so easily. I want to, like, have a bit of confirmation of a fourth. Right. So that. To show you where I'm kind of at. And I think that is a folly.
Right? Like, there's also a large difference between questions and being questioned.
Yeah.
And I. I say that a lot of, hey, guys, I don't mind questions. I go, being questioned is very different. And I go, you will get a much different answer and a much different tonality. But, like, I'm not married to any particular way of doing things. But I'm teaching a very particular way of doing things. I was like, so, like, if you want to go do that, I'm gonna go do that. But we're talking about this, you know, But I don't. Belfort says, so you can go do.
Where I'm kind of at. And I think that is a folly.
Right?
Like, there's a sort of large difference.
Between questions and being questioned.
Yeah.
And I. I say that a lot ago. Hey, guys, I don't mind questions. I go. Being questioned is very different. And I go, you will get a much different answer and a much different tonality. But, like, I'm not married to any particular way of doing things, but I'm teaching a very particular way of doing things.
Things.
I was like, so, like, if you want to go do that, you want. We're talking about this way. If you want to do that stuff, you can do that way. I can't teach that stuff. I don't know that stuff. Right, so let's talk about this. I think it all comes back to, like, in my mind, like, I was. I. I get angry during training. It's not angry, but I crack during trainings a fair bit when people ask the same question a lot, right? Like, if I get to the inner circle where I'm training people and the same people ask the same questions, I go, oi. Like, if you want to learn this, then, like, get obsessed with it and just dive into it and make it everything. Go do that. But we're talking about this, you know? But I don't give a. Belfort says so you can go do what you want. We're talking about this way. If you want to do that stuff, you can do that way. I can't teach that stuff. I don't know. That's it. You need to be like, this is your world now. Like, become the best and. Right, so let's talk about this. I think it all comes back to, like, in my mind. And I think, like, with everything, if you want to be extraordinarily successful in something, you just have to. Like, I was. I. I get angry during trainings. Not angry, but I crack during trainings. Obsess over it. Like, when I learned nebq, like, I was so blown away by it. I was, like, whole. I was like, what is happening? I could not believe that a single person in one lifetime had put that together.
I was like, it's brilliant.
It is brilliant. It is, like, beyond. I was like, wow, if you figure this out, you. You're multimillionaire. Like, there is a fair bit when people ask the same question a lot, right? Like, if I get to the inner circle and I'm training people and the same people ask the same questions, I go, oi. Like, if you want to learn this, then, like, get obsessed with it and just dive into it and make it everything that you need to be. Like, this is your world now. Like, become the best and no if, ands or buts about it. And I remember the way that Jeremy thought of me, looked at me, treated me. As soon as I asked one question, I said, hey, man, are you doing this because of this? And he goes, yeah. He goes. In 15 years of the only person to figure that out. And I was like, huh? Makes a lot of sense. And he was like, yeah, yeah, it does. And I was like, cool. Anyway, that. And then, like, a week later, he's like, hey, do you want to be my Sales gu.
I'm going to be best friends.
Yeah.
We just become best friends.
Yeah. And I think, like, with mentoring, my. My thought process on mentor. I've said this before, is the worst case scenario is that they stay your mentor.
Yeah.
That is the worst case. They need to become a friend that you. And I think, like, with everything, if you want to be extraordinarily successful in something, you just have to obsess over it. Like, when I learned nebq, like, I was so blown away by it. I was like, whole. I was like, what is happening? I could not believe that a single person in one lifetime had put that together.
I was like, it's brilliant.
It is brilliant. It is like, you can ask a favor of. And they need to be invested in your success. So, like, if I want to get. Like, if I get mentoring from Jeremy, like, Jeremy is my sales mentor. He is the master now. I have no intention, need one, or desire to be as good at human sales. And I've been very upfront about that. I am. I will get better naturally, of my progression, but I will not attempt to. Right. Like, I would. Like, I was young. I was like, wow, if you figure this out, you. You're multimillionaire. Like, there's no if, ands, or buts about it. And I remember the way that Jeremy thought of me, looked at me, treated me. As soon as I asked one question, I said, hey, man, are you doing.
This fall downhill from here?
Yeah, I'm good enough. Right? Right. Like, I've reached the point. The point of diminishing return because of this. And he goes, yeah, he goes. And 15 years of the only person to figure. But it was just like, okay, like, if I can do this right, and I can make Jeremy invested in my success, then at the point in which I ask him for a favor which makes me more successful or for him to do something, then me achieving it makes him more successful because my success is hinged on him. And so when I went to him and I was the sales guy, and I said, I can run this company better than the people who are currently running it. Give it to me and I will fix this. And he was like, okay. And that was it. And I fired everybody. Fired everybody.
All right, so.
And I was like, huh? It makes a lot of sense. And he was like, yeah, yeah, it does. And I was like, cool. Anyway. And then like, a week later, he's like, hey, do you want to be my sales guy?
I want to be best friends.
Yeah.
And we just become best friends.
Yeah. And I think like with mentoring my. My thought process on mentor. I've said this before is the worst case scenario is I. I have another.
Question and this is based on a conversation I had with one of our guys earlier. I did a coaching call with him, I don't know, probably about six months ago now. And then he stopped me as I was. As we were walking, I was walking, go take take a leak. But he's like, hey man, thanks so much for that session. He's like, you. You figured that out in like a very short amount of time. And I was like, well, yeah man. As soon as I saw what you had going on, it was easy. I was like, you have a wealth of experience. You've been very successful in another place. Like you were so clearly on the roleplay that we did. And I saw within the first like three minutes trying to be somebody else.
That they stay your mentor.
Yeah.
That is the worst case. They need to become a friend that you.
That you were second guessing yourself. So I look at like the can.
Ask a favor of and they need to be invested in your success. So like if I want to get like if I get mentoring from Jeremy, like Jeremy is my sales mentor. He is the master now. I have no intention need one or desire to be as good at him in sales. And I've been very upfront about that. I am, I will get better.
The difference between being really good and being elite at the point of where you understand what you're doing so well, you can just let your personality, your style, everything else come out. But you trust that you're still going to get the same if not better outcome.
Yeah.
That I think is a thing that a lot of people naturally of my.
Progression but I will not attempt to. Right.
Like I would like it's all downhill from here.
Yeah, I'm good enough. Right? Right. Like I've reached the point, the point of diminishing returns. But it was just like, okay, like if I can do this right and I can make Jeremy invested in my.
Success struggle with especially inside of sales, inside of business really performance in general Y which is even the people that start to understand the process. Which is why you can role play for 12 hours a week. You can study any PQ, you can do all this stuff and you can.
Still this then at the point in which I ask him for a favor which makes me more successful, you can.
Still realistically not have a high level of success. Right. You can still never crack 20k a.
Month comes or whatever does that translate to? Do you see People trying to be bor.
Do you see people trying to be 100? And it 100% translates in that you really just have to understand the principles, the core principles. There's a framework. Like, there's a skeleton to it, and everybody's got their own skin suit around it. And when you see someone who's learned from a particular person and they miss the skeleton and they try to wear.
Their skin suit or for him to do something, then me achieving it makes him more successful, because my success is hinged on him. And so when I went to him and I was the sales guy, and I said, I can run this company better than the people who are. Company currently running it. Give it to me, and I will fix this. And he was like, okay. And that was.
And. And we say that.
A very good way of putting it.
Yeah, we say that all the time. And decoying is one of the biggest things, like teaching a dog to bite. It's a weird little dance with the dog. And there's principles, there's things you do, but everybody has their own flair. And very often you can tell who trained someone by the things that. That they do.
Okay.
And. And they.
I can tell who. What. What training they've done by the way they sell.
Oh, yeah, totally.
God's Danlock. That's Belfort. That's Cardone.
Yeah. And. And. And when you can tell who trained someone, they never. They're gonna.
Fired everybody. Fired everybody.
All right, so be someone who was trained by someone. They're never going to be the person training someone else. Right. Because you would go to the.
I. I have another question, and this is based on a conversation I had with one of our guys earlier. I did a coaching call with him, I don't know, probably about six months ago now. And then he stopped me.
Original, right? And so it's about sort of understanding. I get it. I understand the principles, and I, like, my brain works in flowcharts. So, like, I see the flowchart. I know how you. I know.
I was. As we were walking. I was walking. Go take. Take a leak. But he's like, hey, man, thank you.
The decisions that you're gonna make, and I'm gonna make the same decisions, but it's gonna be with my own flair. The flowchart's gonna be the same, but it's gonna be different colors, and there's gonna be different patterns all over it. But we're gonna get to the same place. We're gonna get to the same place via the same mechanism. But to an observer it might seem really different. Right.
So here's an interesting thing, right. Because I've looked at the cell in all three of us. So much for that session. He's like, you. You figured that out in like a very short amount of time. And I was like, well, yeah, man. As soon as I saw what you had going on, it was easy. I was like, you have a wealth. You've been very successful in another place. Like, you were so clear come from a background where we were fairly confident in what we did. I would say I had a very, very, very high level of confidence in my skill set when I was operating Lee, on the role play that we did. And I saw within the first three minutes trying to be somebody else, I was able to. I actually second guessed. It took me a while to translate that confidence into business. For my first business, I always thought I was behind the curve. I always thought like, oh, I'm behind the curve. Like even when we're doing really well, like hitting high profitability numbers for a brick and mortar gym, all that stuff. Right.
I think you need that though.
I do, and I agree with that. But you also, to hit an elite level, you actually have to get rid of that. It will hold you back.
I don't have that.
So I you that you were second guessing yourself. So I look at like the. The difference between being really good and being elite at the point of where you understand what you're doing so well, you can just let your personality, your style, everything else come out. But you trust that you're still going to get.
Yeah.
Here's my question for you guys.
That's what gets the hunger. But now I agree.
At least it was for me. Here's my question. For somebody that doesn't have our background and so they don't have to go to combat for 10 years.
Right. How is that an option?
Well, right now there's plenty happening.
Well, yeah, Matt, for some of us it is.
Yeah.
Same, if not better outcome. Yeah, that I think is a thing that a lot of people.
You guys were both qualified snipers, right?
No.
Were you? I wasn't aware.
I was not. Oh, thanks. Yeah.
Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know that.
I was.
How many, how many deployments did you get? Less than you struggle with. Especially inside of sales, inside of business, really. Performance in general.
Yep.
Which is even the people that start to understand the process, which is why you can role play for 12 hours a week. You can study any PQ, you can do all this stuff and you can still inside of your 10 years, significant.
Less than you, I believe. It's weird because we spent.
We spent about the same amount of time, but you had seven. That's weird.
I was very important back home, right.
I was this.
Oh, that's weird, because all the work was overseas.
But. But that makes.
That makes sense.
Well, I mean, by the time. By the time you were done with them, you'd already killed everyone.
So I said, it's.
You can still realistically not have a high level of success, Right. You can still never crack 20k a month.
The other day, Booze is like, oh, he called me a sniper. Like, you know, everyone sees a sniper, right? And I was like, does that translate.
To, do you see people trying to be borrowed?
Do you see people trying to be 100? And, dude, I actually wasn't a sniper, and I was the sniper platoon sergeant, but I was neither of those things.
But you could imagine if you were.
It 100 translates in that you really just have to understand the principles, the core principles.
There's a framework.
Like, there's a skeleton to it, and everybody's got their own skin suit around it.
How do you. Especially now that we all coach other people, right. And their development truly is indicative of how successful we are in our roles. Like, their success is literally, which I would say very.
If I'm speaking personally.
Yeah. How do you start to instill. Because I have my own way of doing this and what I kind of look for in somebody. How do you start to go. That person has all of the foundation without the confidence.
And when you see someone who's learned from a particular person and they miss the skeleton and they try to wear their skin suit, and we say, that's.
A very good way of putting it.
Yeah, we see that all the time. And decoying is one of the biggest things, like teaching a dog to bite. It's a weird little dance with the dog. And there's principles, there's things you do, but everybody has their own flair. And very often you can tell who trains someone by the things that they do.
Okay.
And to step into it on their own. And then how do you start to translate that and give them coaching advice around that to actually become confident who they are?
I know how I do it, but first of all, I know if someone's good, like, immediately, I can. I can tell if someone looks from the first couple of minutes, it's. If they make the same decisions as me, if I do not understand where they're going in a sales call, because I should be able to listen to in the same way that you should be able to watch someone coaching, training a dog and go, okay, I get what they're doing here. If you look at it and go, what are they doing? Like then, then they're either on a different wavelength, which is working. But I can't work with them anyway because I don't understand what they're doing. I can tell who, what, what training they've done by the way they sell.
Oh yeah, totally.
God's Danlock, that's Belfort, that's Cardone.
Yeah. And, and, and when you can tell who trained someone, they're never, they're going to be someone who was trained by someone. They're never going to be the person training someone else.
Right.
Because you would go to the original.
Right.
And so it's about sort of understanding. I get it, I understand the thing.
But if I go, oh, okay, I see what he's doing, then like I can predict what's going to happen. And if they do that, I'm like, yep, their decision making process is good. Now the execution might be poor. Like they might have poor tonality. They might be asking like the right question in the wrong way or at the wrong time, but that decision principles.
And I like, my brain works in flowchart. So like I see the flowchart. I know how you.
I know that flowchart is. The skeleton is there and they're making it but just with small tweaks they can get better. Now the people who are actually genuinely really good, like we have a sales.
Rep who's phenomenally to the decisions that you're going to make. And I'm going to make the same decisions, but it's going to be with my own flair. The flowchart's going to be the same, but it's going to be different colors and there's going to be different patterns all over it.
But we're getting talented who just doesn't produce. Right. Phenomenally. Right.
Like the guy who knows get to the same place. I'm going to get to the same place via the same mechanism. But to an observer it might seem.
Really everything does everything perfectly, but for some reason just can't train a dog. Right. And different.
Right.
So here's an interesting thing, right, Because I've looked at this, all three of us, it's.
It's really interesting and there's a bunch of different things. But what I generally do is try and remove the importance of the outcome and I just go, your only job on at the end of each sales call is to think, man, I did my process, and that was a good call.
So come from a background where, like, we were fairly confident in what we did, like, I would say I had a very, very, very high level of confidence in my skill set when I was operating.
If we just removed.
