How To Do Marketing SO Good It Makes Selling Easy
Matt Ryder and Declan discuss how to build marketing that sells itself, covering customer acquisition costs, organic content strategy, and when to spend on ads. They use real examples from real estate and fitness to show how paid and organic work together.
If you're willing to lose money on things and you're doing it intentionally and for a purpose, like, that's how you beat your competition. Because it's whoever's willing to spend the most to get the customer, that's who wins.
Like if you have one $5,000 offer and nothing that you sell after that, or even a $10,000 offer, like, you're making it very difficult for yourself because you could sell something lower price on the front end. Do higher volumes offset your cost or even lose money on the front end like you just mentioned? And then with all the customers you've got, go sell them something for 20, 30, 40 grand on the back end.
One thing that I always found was that the advertising was never anywhere near as consistent if they didn't have organic content. And I'm talking like, meta is cheaper if you have a YouTube channel. All right, guys, what's up? We're in an episode of Coffees for Closers. So I got this guy James Hepburn with me today. It's a little bit of a different angle. James is really good marketer, understands content marketing, all that kind of stuff. And then we sort of. We met at a. We've been in the same circles for a while, but we met at the beginning Simpkins event. Right. We met before that as well. Yeah.
And then I saw you at Hormozy's event.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, we just sort of got along and chatted shit and you know, you know what you're doing. You're also working with Jack Henderson at the moment. And you know, I know Jack Jackson or Dialer. I just did podcast with him then. But yeah, I wanted to kind of, you know, just get your perspective, get a breakdown, you know, marketing what you do.
Right.
And then. And then just sort of get some insight because a lot of our guys are business owners and salespeople. And I think like the more of an understanding you have of marketing, like my. I was a marketer first, before I was a sales guy. I used to do all the media buying and all the creative stuff for the ads and I had my own strategies of like. Cause I was doing it for the gym that I owned in Bondi. And it's like I used to do a very different strategy to everybody else and every time I hired an agency, they could never match it.
Yep.
You know, and so like I, I know marketing decently. I know more about like non paid stuff. But, you know, you're deep in the world and I'd love to know one like what Are you seeing at the moment? What are you seeing from like, what are some of the commonalities of like successful businesses that are using, you know, they're doing like are they just throwing ad spended things or is there, you know, I think I was talking to Jack, it was like if you just took the money that he makes from the ads directly like without any longer term attribution, like it makes no sense but the brand gets bigger and bigger and bigger and he makes sales. But it's like not necessarily the last touch was not the ad, you know.
And so interesting specifically which we can, we can speak on. But yeah, no it's a, it's a great question. So just for context, for people listening. So I've been a copywriter primarily doing info coaching, consulting, high ticket stuff like the last 10 years pretty much. These days I pretty well focus primarily on like video creative and VSLs. That's pretty much all of it. I work with knowledge source who do like I don't know, $100 million a year in revenue. Henderson has done I don't know, 15 million a year. We do all of his videos for anyone who's seen them. And then I've worked with people like Ben Handler, Jay wright, all just VSL, video creative, high production stuff. So in the last 12 months in the Australian market in real estate, I've spent about $3 million on ads which is not big if you're in the us but it's huge if you're out here. Our population's not that big.
It's hard to spend that money.
Hard to spend that much. Yeah. Especially just in real estate pretty well. So I guess we could talk about all that sort of stuff. I think there's a lot. It's funny you say that like the way you marketed when you had a gym no one could replicate because that's sort of the secret in itself. Like you know, I'm not a big grant card owned guy but I've seen him talk about how, you know like people are afraid to say controversial.
Oh yeah.
And you see it all the time with people. Oh like what if, you know, what if people see this and they think negative shit about me and it's like your problem is no one knows who you are, not that people think negatively of you. And that's one thing Jack does really well is he'll just say fucking anything. He's the only person I reckon I've ever worked with where I'm like dude, peel that back a bit. That's a bit outrageous because Normally I'm trying to tell people to do real crazy.
You're not a millionaire, you're gay, right?
Yeah, yeah.
We ran an ad that was like, hi, I'm Jack and I'm trans. Transferring hundreds of thousands of dollars into my clients pockets with my property strategy, you know, and he thought that was fucking hilarious. And so stuff like that.
Yeah, I think like, I think you know, if you, if you try and speak to everyone, you speak to no one passionately and I think a lot of people like they try and play it safe and they don't end up being themselves and then you, you sort of end up having to be somebody else all of the time. Which I feel like would be very exhausting.
Absolutely.
And so you can't keep that up. And I think especially with socials and you know, there is a, you know, there is something with social media where quantity is a quality of its own. And if you're putting a lot out there and it's so easy for people to see if it's not you, you know, and so it like they might be, they might follow you for information but they're not gonna like sort of passionately be on one side of the other.
Yeah.
Like if you look at say like you know Jeremy's content, right. There's, there's no real like him in it. You don't, you get a lot of great information.
Yeah.
But you don't get him right. Because it's just pure information. There's no sort of, you know, it's the sort of same every time. And it's great content but it's not personal brand content. It's far more like corporate brand content.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, which then stops people from like I guess deeply connecting. Where you get someone like a pace Morbi for example. Pace. But yeah, yeah, but my God, it's so like wrapped in his, in him.
Yeah.
He has a cult like following.
Yeah, 100%.
And it's, it's wild. And it's just because like people think.
That they know him and Jack's similar like that. Like Jack said to me when I saw him a couple of weeks ago, he was like, oh, one of my favorite things at the moment or one thing I've noticed in my content is like people argue with each other in the comments, like I don't say anything. People that love me are coming in there like calling people cunts and like just attacking people. And he's like, I agree with it but I don't even really get involved in it because I'm too fucking busy. But I think it's funny. But it's that point because he has such strong opinions on everything. And I think that's like all your ads. And I mean, this isn't really revolutionary, but I think it's particularly important now with where social media is at and all these algorithms. Like, if you don't go and say something, why. It's sort of like why Trump won the elections. Like, because he says a lot of crazy shit, but people just like, no one's like, I don't know who that is. I feel lukewarm about Trump. I don't have an opinion. Love, hate. There's no middle ground.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that was one of the big things that people said about Kamala was that, like, they don't know who she is.
Yeah, she went. She didn't end up going on Rogan.
You can't tribalize with that.
You know, I think that was the reason she didn't go on Rogan too, because they were, like, worried that she. They didn't know if she could maintain the character.
I mean, she's a dumb dumb.
That's what people. I mean, who knows?
She in particular is a bit of a dumb dumb. So, like, say we argue in the comments, go for it. So, like, you know, I think, like, marketing is such an interesting endeavor, and I think that a lot of the time people say that sales is like the most important. I think that sales should bend to marketing. I've sort of always said that.
Yeah, right. Okay.
Because I think that, you know, if I go old school copywriting, which I think is a great, you know, it's the five levels of awareness.
Right?
Unaware, problem aware, solution aware, brand aware, product aware. Yeah, I think like, the marketing's job is to get them as far down the line as can be done affordably, you know, so if we can get them brand aware, I mean, product aware, fantastic. Like, hey, did you know that? Like, you know, so they're unaware. Then it's like, problem aware. Hey, did you know that you can make more money through investing in real estate? Okay, cool. It's like, hey, you can do it. You know what I mean? Like, there. There are ways to do it that, you know, there is a solution out there. And it's like, you know, Henderson Advocacy is a way that you can do that without the knowledge. And then this program, Program X is the program from Henderson Advocacy that can get you to having your own property, which solves your cash flow, which solves your wealth creation problem, you know, and so but you know, affordably is the key, of course. And so like if at that moment in time marketing can only get people to solution aware, then the sales process has to be altered and picked up from there. You can't just go like I want book calls.
Yeah, right.
And just sit there and kick and scream and like demand shit as a sales team because you'll just bankrupt the company.
Yeah, it's funny you say that because I've always considered them like one spectrum. And like, I'm sure you would have worked with like businesses like this where they typically like sometimes they're combative. Marketing will be like, our sales can't close our leads. Sales will be like marketing, these leads are shit. But in reality it's just one spectrum. You can have like a, like a sales heavy sales process which is like, you know, just generate a phone number off a lead magnet, opt in zero content consumed and have like a two step call process where they close heaps of people. You can have that or you can have like we're only getting on the phone with people that have spent like a thousand bucks with us. But like you said, you're not scale, that can be difficult, cost, et cetera, et cetera. But then like when they do get on the phone, sales job will be easier. So it's like trying to strike that balance based on the scale of where you're at.
Yeah. And it's like it will change. And the answer is probably have both. You know, you probably want to have because like one will become incredibly profitable. And so you're going to skew the spend towards that and that's going to chop and change depending on a lot of different factors and appetite and how long you run it for and audience saturation. You know, one of the things that I was always really tried to maintain, like we were doing big ad spend at seventh level, you know, like a million dollars US a month. Right. It was the, basically the metric was we can never let the amount of eyeballs that see us asking for them to give us money. Right. To be more than the amount of people that we give value to for free. So we had to take like all the organic content and say, okay, we get X amount of views, whatever it was per month. We get that many eyeballs. If we're gonna pay for 5 million eyeballs to see the ads. Right. Then what we need to do is whatever that delta is, we have to subvert ad spend towards top of funnel audience growth to make sure that those two circles never converge. So you've got Your, like, your reach, you got your conversion and like your reach advertising. Right. And so we always tried, I was always really, really adamant that like. No, no, no. If, if, if those converge, then your brand, your advertising gets bigger than your brand and then everything starts to get incredibly expensive. Because now everything you do is code audience.
Yes.
Yeah.
Right. When everything is called audience, it, it is a difficult thing to maintain over a long term because you have to, you have to churn through audiences so fast and it just gets more expensive. And so I would rather put money, I'm a huge fan of just like video view advertising, lead magnets, downloadables, anything that you can give value for free.
And then create opportunities for your salespeople.
Exactly. And then retarget those people with book, you know, and so have a lot of that stuff going. But the problem is like, that takes a level of delayed gratification and end of month and the ads are performing well. There's a discipline to not turning them up.
Yeah, yeah.
One thing I'm curious about, Matt, like at that level of spend where you're like doing an info product and I'm imagining like there's a degree of turnover of sales reps, probably not huge, but there'd be a degree of it. And then you've got that much spend. And I've seen you do some posts about like generating insane numbers of leads in that business. What was the fluctuation like in terms of cash collected revenue? Like that had to have been a rollercoaster all on its own or was things relatively stable?
It was pretty stable. Like when I was there, we, like, I had projections and then like, that was where my sort of, I guess somewhat rough management style came into play. Because if the team, I would always say it is not impressive to spend more money to make more sales. That does not impress me. I did not find that difficult. If you have, like, you have a budget and you are not allowed to go over it and you have to hit the revenue number with that budget, like, and so, and then everything was budgeted and everything was forecasted. And so if we were going to have a giant, if everything is performing beautifully, I would never allow them to turn it up. It's like, no, no, no, we're trying to hit that number just because we can hit that number. All that's going to do is make the next month go like this. So like, I'd rather just create sustained growth rather than like, like that and then just hit nice consistent numbers. Knowing that we've always got a bit more in the Tank.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You don't need to max everything out all the time. That's just that that's what creates like the front end chaos cycle.
Yeah.
Where you're always like trying to make next month the best month. And then I would factor in months that I knew would be bad. Like July is going to be bad in the us. There's nothing you can do.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Try and do anything about it because if you do, you know, you're just wasting your fucking time. And you can figure out how to have a giant July. But why?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
What's the point, you know? And so like, because people are away for 10 days, you know, if this is inevitable, then like I'm 10 days behind.
Well, that was like out here in April. There was the two Easter holidays, the Anzac Day holiday leading into the election.
Yeah.
With Henderson like shit, sort of not fell off a cliff, but he was like, what the fuck's going on? I'm like, look, I'm not one for blaming external events, but.
It'S normal.
As soon as the election ended, things took off. Yeah.
And this is normal. And it's like, it's the discipline of like, all right, that makes sense. And then just keep going. And you can choose to pull back, spend or you can choose to just not be profitable for two weeks.
Yeah, right.
And then if you choose to just not be profitable for two weeks, then what you can do is you can gain market share in those times. Because if you're willing to lose money on things and you're doing it intentionally and for a purpose, like that's how you beat your competition. Because it's whoever's willing to spend the most to get the customer, that's who wins.
Yeah.
You know, and so like you look at like, like, like Bernard Arnou.
Yeah, right.
You know the fucking Wolf and Cashmere.
Yeah.
The only non tech fucking super billionaire, whatever he's. And you know he bought Michael Kors.
Yeah.
And then what he did is he like half the price of everything at Michael Kors because obviously he makes so much money in the thousands of brands that he has is a full monopoly of everything luxury. And so. But what he didn't have was like good mid tier luxury, like entry level luxury. So Michael Kors is creating the customer for Louis Vuitton.
Yeah, right.
It's your first taste. So what he did is he half the price. It bankrupted 80% of mid tier luxury. Right. Origin got right. They reduced up Mimco. Do you remember Mimco?
Yeah.
You see it anymore?
Too much notice.
But, yeah, they ran Michael Kors at a huge loss for like, five years.
Yeah.
Right. To bankrupt their customer, competitors.
Yeah.
And it worked because, like, he's like, well, I don't need to make money in Michael Kors if I lose a billion dollars a year, I don't give a fuck. You know, he's like, you know, Chanel's making a billion dollars a week. He's like, I don't care. You know? And so he's like, we'll just take that margin and charge an extra thousand dollars for a fucking Chanel bag. Like, what do we give a fuck?
Yeah, yeah.
It's all. It's all one big company anyway, and so it's really interesting. And so, you know, he did that on purpose. And he was willing to lose money, and he was willing to pay more to acquire a customer, and so he did it. And where you can bankrupt your customers. Like, you know, I always said, like, if I was going to do gyms again, like, I could. I could bankrupt every gym in born I. Because if I was going to do it again, knowing what I know now, I would, like, I would. I would have. I would open up a great gym and I would have a $2 million stop loss. So I would do it, and then I would lose $2 million in the first year. I would offer all inclusive, for $10 a week.
Yeah, right.
Everything. $10 a week. Opening, special, 12 months, lock it in, $10 a week. Right. And then I would bankrupt everybody. And I would even say, like, if you can prove. Cancel your membership, you get it for $5 a week. Right. And. And then from there, as soon as everyone's closed, I would go up to the hundred dollars a week. I would then lose 80% of my business and maintain a very profitable, very good gym.
A hell of a way to think about it, right?
Just lose money. I lose money they can't afford to lose.
And then by then, they'd all be ingrained in the community of the gym, too.
Yeah.
And so, like, that's how you do it. And you, you know, you just. You. You bring people in and then you go, yeah, man, your first year is up. It's now 100 bucks a week. Stay, leave, I don't give a. Yeah, what are you gonna do? Go to the competition that went bankrupt six months ago and no one would.
Want to start a gym in the area?
No, because I dominated.
Yeah.
Everyone's wearing the T shirts because I get a free hoodie and a free T Shirt. And, you know, I mean, I partner up with Lululemon, and. You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, dude.
With money, you destroy them. But because the problem is everyone who's starting a gym is like, they're bootstrapping it. You know, I'm not trying to compete with the virgins. I'm trying to compete with, like, I'm just gonna destroy all the small group training gyms.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so with that, like, you know, that. That's just a. It's just a. It was a strategy that would work. And, you know, and so, like, when it comes to advertising, you know, if you can. If you can afford to do it, do it, you know, and then you just have a sales process that bends around to it and that fluctuates and changes based on what's happening. And, you know, because a sale, a sales team should just be like, it's not their close rate that matters. It's like the return of ad spend in which they give you.
Yeah.
Like.
Advantage. Like these information brands have, you know, like, if they can sell courses, coaching, whatever, as a way to just liquidate on the front end, like, the back end can just be, you know, infinite. Yeah, I've said this to Jack a million times, and that's a whole other thing. He doesn't want to sell education because he's consumed too much hormozy. But anyway, that's a whole other thing. But I'm like, dude, if we were selling something here, we could liquidate all of our ad spend and these people would probably end up buying from you anyway on the back end, the same shit they're buying on the front end. But now all these, like, you know, costs would be offset. But, you know, he doesn't want to do it that way, which is obviously his choice.
But, yeah, well, he definitely knows what he's doing. So when it comes to running something like a. Like a webinar, what are you seeing at the moment? Like, with webinars, like, what's your. What's your, like, underlying thesis? If you're like, this is what a.
Webinar needs to have, like, in the specific webinar or. Yeah, like, so my overall philosophy is this, right. Like, if I was launching anything in info, coaching, consulting, the biggest variable, I mean, outside all the obvious shit, which we probably don't need to talk about the offer, you know, the 101s of marketing, like, if you don't have a good offer in a market where you've got some sort of advantage, like, we Just talked about, like, that goes without saying. You obviously need that in 2020. Once you've got that down pat, though, it's all just front end video creative trying to get the cost per lead down and the dollars you generate per lead up. You know what I mean? So it's having a full.
Like.
Like businesses that don't have back ends, like, they probably don't exist now, they definitely won't exist in the, in the future because shit's just advertising is way too expensive. Like if you have one $5,000 offer and nothing that you sell after that, or even a $10,000 offer, like you're making it very difficult for yourself because you can sell something lower price on the front end. Do higher volumes offset your costs or even lose money on the front end like you just mentioned? And then with all the customers you've got, go sell them something for 20, 30, 40 grand on the back end. So the philosophy is have a front end and a back end and then just do a shitload of video. Creative, like creative burns out real quickly, especially in small markets like Australia. So with Jack, we'll shoot every, you know, know three to four weeks. We'll get heaps more new creative. Now he, he's not an example of what I talked about because he doesn't really have a front end. I mean, he has got some staggered offers, but largely it's his buyer's agent fee that he sells. But obviously they do a good job and they get repeat business. So there's a bit of a back. But we will have. So, yeah, like a business like that. And then it will literally be VSL or webinar. If it's VSL, it'll be like 15 minutes long. I'm doing a lot of like high production stuff, so I'll shoot like one camera front on, one camera on an angle. I'll do a take like that of a vsl. Then I'll go shoot line by line walking around the streets, picking up a pay phone, like just heaps of. And then cut those three angles together and I can send you some examples of that because people are so like in the head from tick tock and Instagram and scrolling. And if you don't have heaps of movement and going on the same way, like Sabri subi does his VSLs and ads, like you're just gonna, you just could. People are just gonna scroll off it. It's boring. It's got to be exciting. The message has to be relevant as well. So when you're looking at Creative?
Yeah.
Like, are you. Because you. Because you're writing the ad to. Right?
In the ad scripts. I go to the shoots, I shoot the videos. And we'll do the same thing in ads. We'll do like, say the hook here, go in this room, say some shit here. And then like, the good thing about that is when you cut your ads into different segments. Like, for example, when I was with Jack last week, and there's a barber across the road, he gets his hair cut. I ring this and I'm like, jack, I'm coming down to shoot on Thursday. And in the middle of the shoot, he'll be like, oh, I gotta go get a haircut. I'm like, are you fucking serious, dude? I fly here from Brisbane, get a haircut. I say, can we go there and get. Shoot an ad at the barber? He's like, yeah, righto. So we shot this ad where the dude's cutting his hair. It's coming out this week. And the. And the hook is like getting. Getting property advice from someone who doesn't own any property is like getting a haircut from a barber that has no hair. And then the camera pans and the fucking barbers bald. And he just happened to be bald. This cunt that cuts his hair. Like, we shot that there. And then there's like a bit more in the salon. And then there's a part where he's like walking up the stairs into his office and. Cause. Cause one ad has all these different scenes. Let's say the barber hook doesn't resonate. Say it just goes, shit. We'll just shave the first eight seconds off the ad and he'll be like walking up the stairs saying, here's a problem with most property gurus. So then we'll test the ad like 8 seconds in from that point. If that point doesn't resonate, we'll cut into the next part where he starts going through client examples. And even if it all works, we'll have like three or four variations of one bit of creative and we'll get extra juice out of it. So that's like a thing we do as well.
And so like. And can you tell when that's going to pop off? Or if it's just like. There's just no way to know. It just looks good.
Pretty much. We can tell pretty quickly. Like, the legs of something. Like. So say for Jack, like, in the property market, it's opt into a VSL that's about 30, 40 minutes from memory because we've changed a few times. I think it's a 40 minute one at the moment and then book a call. And so we'll pay if we go to a broad market. Like lately a lot of his ads have been targeting business owners and he's been really on this kick. Let's only go after business owners. When we do that, our CPLs are way higher. But before that, say for the first, from about June last year until say January, we were targeting just anyone interested in property investment, like a broader audience. We would pay 30 to around 40 bucks CPO at scale for like good ads for like an extended period of time. So if we launched something and it was outside of that, we might run it for a little bit, but typically that would be like something we know is not going to sustain. And then if we ran something that was around the 30 mark, we'll know that we can pump that for a while. But then what was interesting about him, I think between June last year, 2024, when we started working together till roughly the end of Jan, about seven months, we generated about, from memory, about 18,000 leads spent. I think it was about 650 grand on ads. I think those numbers are right from that talk I did at Benz. That's what they are. But then we did this one ad where the hook was sell your fucking house with the F word beeped out. Right. This is really interesting to me because normally, like when people talk about like testing new ads or testing headlines, you know, you might get a bump of like 10, 15%.
Yeah.
Reduced to costs. Like if you're doing shit right, like, you know someone like me who's done it a lot of times ago. All right, let's test these hooks. Maybe we get a cut in CPL of like 20% once. Once we get to like your normal price. Right. We did this ad that was like, sell your fucking house. That was the start of the ad. And then Jack was talking about like, here's why you should sell your fucking house if you want to be rich. Because owning the house you live in, there's no tax deductions, blah, blah, sort of talking about rent vesting, man. That ad took the CPL to $12 from forward, just that one change. And we did like 2,000 leads a week, which was because the CPL was so much lower. Like we were doing so many fucking leads. And seeing a change like that to a campaign that you've already pumped, like say 15,000 leads from was super interesting, you know, like.
Yeah.
And it speaks to how important the message is. And, you know, the comments were Obviously, like, fuck you, your dog. And why would I sell my house? I got a family and all this emotional stuff. But you don't have to. It's just interesting to see that change.
No one's going to make you, buddy. It's just a fucking advert.
Yeah, you idiot.
We ended up pausing that because then we went and did a VSL that was based on that angle because the original VSL was more investment. So we're actually about to relaunch that now. It'll be interesting to see how that goes because the theory is the quality won't be as good because it's more of a like, consumer type of like, people that buy their house to live in are probably different to his norm anyway. We'll see how that goes.
And how much do you find that? Like, do you. I know you don't have much to do with his organic, right? But in terms of like advertising and brands with larger organic presences, he. Right, because when we were spending lots, and I've been involved in lots of businesses doing lots of spend, right? Like, because I had that sales agency and one thing that I always found was that the advertising was never anywhere near as consistent if they didn't have organic content, right? Like, and I'm talking like, meta is cheaper if you have a YouTube channel. So we would notice a direct correlation. We went on holiday and we didn't have preloaded YouTube videos, like Loaded up, ready to go. Our meta cost would go up. And it wasn't because we were retargeting. It was just like our inferences were just like, well, it's just an ecosystem where people are gonna end up in different places. Like, they see an ad of Jeremy and they go, oh, what's that Jeremy guy? And they might search him on YouTube because, like, YouTube is like the number one search platform.
Yeah.
Then they search him. Now YouTube is like the greatest retargeting mechanism ever. It is, it is fire. Like when you book in a meeting for dialer, you get redirected to a YouTube video of me and it's, hey, you booked in for dialer. Let me explain what it is. That's like a 20 minute YouTube video explaining dialer that gets a really high watch time. Like it's like, you know, 80% watch time because they've just booked a call.
Yeah.
Now it's unlisted.
So that's on your YouTube channel. Or is that like a YouTube video embedded on a web page?
It's just on the YouTube channel because, like, what do I give a fuck? Just send them off, right? Because then they're gonna like go, oh, what else is he talking about?
Yeah, yeah, that's smart.
But then what happens is they end up during that couple days because they watched an 18 minute video of me, right? YouTube goes, oh, let's fucking send him more of his videos.
Yeah.
And so they just start sending videos and they just, by the time they hop on a call, even if they didn't know me before they go, man, I've watched like 20 of your videos in the last few days.
Yeah, yeah, sweet, man.
Did you get some value? Like, yeah, dude, like you, you know what you're talking about. I was like, thanks, man. How can I help? And I did. The sales are.
So it's. Yeah, it's an interesting thing, right? So say with Jack, because he's like an absolute beast at organic content. Like if anyone who doesn't follow him, like he posts like six times a day and he, he's just started doing YouTube.
YouTube is like the most powerful organic. It's like you, you can't. It's hard to gain an audience.
Yeah.
But the audience that you do have is powerful. They are buyers. Right. So it's like because they're watching like.
Documentaries on you basically, you know, and like how many times have you watched a video? Like people like us that are ADD, like, I watch a 10 minute video, probably not even that long. I'm like, yep, done, sold. But if someone goes and watches like 10 hours of your content.
Yeah.
Know where you live and all that. Sort of like.
Yeah. Really hard to grow on social like on, on Instagram. Right. Growth is hard because I don't spend money on the platform. But also like, I'm not as consistent as it should be. Like, it's like I'm sure I could if I really fucking put tons of effort in. But you know, it's too difficult to grow an Instagram. You know, you're shouting against a hurricane.
And you got to say crazy shit. If you don't. If you don't go and say real crazy shit like it's a fucking slog.
Yeah.
Amplify brand like crazy.
Yeah.
What I've seen, like when we started doing the more advertising we did, the more YouTube views Jeremy would get. Yeah, that's right. And like this is on meta on everything. And like the bigger, the more YouTube advertising we did, the fucking bigger is Instagram would get. Like, it's just because it's people, right. And people are not on one platform. There are multiple platforms. And so, you know, if you're like, it's just a big web, right?
What's interesting, right, is like, take Jack, for example. So he has, I think about a hundred thousand Instagram followers, super active, tons of engagement. So for all the ads we do for him, right? So if I compare his brand to I love real estate, which is. Is the Australian real estate part of Knowledge Source, where I do Jim for Bohol, write all her ads. Now, they're different markets and they appeal to different segments and all that, man. Jack has a bit more aesthetic or like a bit more vibey. Like he's a bit more current, I guess, with his ads. Maybe that's maybe not the right way of saying it. Anyway, the point's this.
He's 26, you know, he's young, he's getting after it, whatever he is. Yeah.
And like, he's got McLarens and there's a bit of it and the quality's high and there's a thing he's doing.
But.
So dimfa doesn't do any content for. I love real estate. All we do is run paid ads on that brand, right? So this is like a direct comparison. Same industry, different segments of that niche. Like, they do education and Jack does the buyer's agent thing, but both in real estate, both in Australia, she doesn't do any content. John's whole thing is like just cranking eight ads into his webinars. And he's a beast at that with. With Jack. So Jack, in terms of, like, when you're looking at the ads in the ad account, he'll get like above average engagement rate rankings and like, like the ad account likes his shit. Like, for whatever reason, it's engaging. People watch it more so than other brands. Right. But part of that and Vaughan, you know, Vaughan Royer, he runs all of his ads. Vaughn's a weapon. Vaughn will say, like, it'll reduce the CPM because of all the content he creates. Right. But what's interesting about it is Jack obviously has like all this content on Instagram. And last year we. Or maybe earlier this year, we had this discussion about, well, how much of the revenue we generate comes from. So he'll have, like we have in the VSL funnel we run for Jack, there's like one calendar that calls will get booked in and then he has a link to a separate calendar in his Instagram bio. And so we'll look at the numbers each week and be like, you know, while we're running ads and we're spending, I think at the moment we spend about 200 grand a month. But say back when he was spending 100 or 150, we would be like, his team would always report the organic calls separately and be like, oh, you know, like 100 calls got booked off the VSL and 100 got booked off this calendar. Link through Jack's Instagram bio and. And Vaughn would always argue, make 30 to 50% of those organic ones are paid traffics. Like, you know, we can't today.
And I go, why don't you have Click Magic or High Rosemate?
Yeah.
I was like, you're crazy.
Yeah.
You can track that down to the second first touch. Everything. It tracks every single thing. That person.
I don't. Yeah. So I'm not involved in that. I don't know why we're doing that.
But.
But here's what happened, right? I think it was February. The ad account was down for a while. It wasn't, it wasn't banned. There was like a. Jack switched his invoicing method. Something happened. There was some payment up. Anyway, there's no ads for like two weeks, right. And the sales guy rings me and he's like, dude, we're getting all appointments booked across any of these platforms. I'm like, well, you're not going to get any until the ads are back up. And then I had this conversation with Jack where we talked about it and like, long story short, when the paid ads were running like 90% of. Not to say that obviously the content does a massive leg up, reduces the CPM of the paid, paid ads. Obviously people consume fuck loads of his content and probably book really high quality sales calls. But when that, when that, when the ad. When the ad spend went away from. From the paid ads that we were running, it just like fucked all the organic calls up as well. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see from High Rise, but bottom line, yeah, you'd like the organic super important. But without the paid ad spend, it sort of shit went downhill pretty quickly as well.
Yeah, I think. Yeah, I totally agree. You know, and it was like, it was like, you know, one of the mistakes that I've seen people make is they go, I was working with this guy once, he's like, oh man, like all the best leads and the highest close rated from the website leads. So let's just ramp advertising the website. And I was like, no, that's retarded. I was like, we're not doing. And he was like, nah. But like, we did look at all the best leads. I go, no, mate, just your best leads are ending up at the website. I go, no one's fucking searching you, dude. You are like one out of a trillion websites. You don't have any SEO. These are just the people that have watched everything, gone through the ads, done the research and opted in via the website because that is the way to do it if you are very, very interested.
Yep.
Right. And so if you just ramp advertising direct to your website, you can't replicate that journey.
Yep.
I was, I was just like, so don't do it because it's stupid. Everything is working together and if you don't have. See like before we had like now I don't think Hiros is like, like the best way to do it just because. And I think, you know, it's very expensive. There are some holes in the attribution cycles.
Click.
Magic's really good. It's like just as good, but way cheaper, you know, like it's way, way cheaper. You know pompa, like Dr. Pompa in the U.S. so I know them pretty well.
Do you know mate Dirk Frank Kennel? He used to be their VP of sales.
I don't. I know the CEO.
Yep.
Daniel.
Yeah, Daniel. Yeah, him. The other day. They're doing like $3 million a month US in ads, right. About 150 million a year. They had to build their own attribution software. It's called Dr. Attribution. It's not for sale. Right. They built it themselves because hi just wasn't specific enough for the amount of ads money they were spending on advertising that's they now know everything and like they've been able to reduce their CPLs by like 40, 50%.
Yeah.
Like hyper specific attribution. But at seventh level we had it and we like it was a four month buying cycle and the first touch and last touch, you know, so you need something like that in place because you might have ads that are incredibly good at initializing the buying cycle but not finishing it, you know, and you don't want to stop running those ads.
Yeah.
So it's like you just move them around and stuff like that and. But like there are ads that look like they don't work and then they do.
Well, it's funny, it's funny you say that because I was talking to Jack about this last week and I was saying to him like. Because he was saying, because when they report the numbers, like what we'll see for, you know, these, this number of calls is booked from the vsl, this number from organic. And I'll be like, well, they wouldn't report the organic and I'd be like, guys, give us all these numbers just so we could. Just so we can see. Like, I don't care how you guys attribute them on your end. Doesn't affect me. But, like, just so we can. We know what ads were running and what calls got booked. And we got into this discussion where Jack was sort of saying like, well, the calls that get booked through the organic channel, he's like, that would happen. Like, you know, that's just a product of ad spend itself. And I was like, nah, like, the creative would impact it. If we spend 100 grand next week on pictures of my dick in people's newsfeed, you're not gonna book the same amount of calls organically, I can tell you that.
His clothes. So I've worked with people who. This guy has a quite a big Instagram. And it's all booked through Instagram, right Through like shout outs and stuff like that. So it's organic, but it's not. It's the same as paid. And he went to a wedding and it was like an Indian wedding. So he was wearing like an Indian garb because he was in like the bridal. He was like the groom's party and he got nothing but Indian leads for a month. Like, dude, that. Those. Those popped off so hard in India, they changed the entire algorithm of the channel.
Wow.
What business, what business was that?
It's like, learn how to trade off it. All right, I'll send you Instagram.
You can see because he wore that, like the. The organic, like delivered his content to different people.
Yeah, because tons of Indians started liking it because he was wearing traditional Indian garb. Which then Instagram goes, oh, you like this. I give you nothing but Indians. And for a month it was nothing but plus, you know, nine, one area code and all the leads and they can't afford the product. Like the exchange rate doesn't make sense. Right. And so it fucking tanked sales because he wore is. It's an organic based marketing business and he. Or something of a culture. And then it popped off in that culture and then skewed all of the new followers and all the people doing DMS and all the CTAs into people in those countries and they couldn't afford it. So it flooded the calendars with unqualified leads. It's fucking fascinating, dude.
That makes total sense, though, because that's how those work.
If you never predict it when you say it.
Yeah, you'd never think it would happen when you say it. It's like, I guess it took Him a while to figure that out too.
Yeah, it took a while. It was like, you know, because you can then go in and like see the demographic shift. Like if I have a look in my socials I'm like all us, uk, Canada, Australia.
Yeah.
I have like very, very little India, Turkey. Like if you look at any of my socials like it's less than 2, 3%, right. I'm like 90% Western countries and it's almost all male and it's all between like fucking like 22 and 50, right. Like that's demographics. I have like a hyper specific social which like and there's no fluff in there. Which means like my like brand reach is like the same as somebody with 10x who did a bunch of like viral posts.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean so that's why like you know, we at Dialer, like we don't do any paid advertising. It's all off. Like it's just a website inquiries which are all coming. And like there's a direct correlation between when I post on YouTube, right? So if I like get lazy and don't post for two weeks on YouTube, like the leads just stop.
Man, that's so interesting.
And, but like, and then I was.
Gonna think the algo feeds them more of your like something new and then maybe they watch it but like it feeds other to the them as well.
Yeah, it's just like, you know, it's just being there and so you know, and then I did it. I do a post on Facebook because like I get lazy. I just won't post for three weeks, right. I just, I just don't think about it. And then I'll do a post and you know, I know how to play the organic sort of game and then.
You know, big numbers which is great for that organic stuff. Like if you post anything about you know, like oh hey this, this company I'm working with did like 20,000 pickups or some shit, whatever, you know what I mean? Like it's such big numbers that everyone's like oh, listen to anything you say.
Yeah, like I did one like totally organic just Facebook post yesterday and I got 450 likes and I posted last night. Yeah, like that's an organic Facebook post right now and like you can do primers and stuff like that. Like I know how to play that game, right? But it's really interesting that like YouTube, all I've got is a link to dialer IO.
That's it.
And I don't even really do dollar specific videos. Like not I do Like, I don't really, I don't do any CTAs. Don't do anything. And it's like. But we get, if I post every week, we get four to five leads every day. They're all very qualified. We make a sale a day in B2B, you know, average, like the, the, the annual value of each client is going to be probably 25 to 30,000.
Yep.
Right. Average. And we make a sale every day and we've done over a million in revenue in the first five months of launch with zero advertising and we're profitable. And that's a SaaS. That's pure SaaS. There's no service in that. That's pure software. Which is wild and just goes to show, like, you know, content and branding. And then when we add in advertising, like all we're going to do is advertise the people who just fucking watch stuff and don't do anything.
Yeah.
Like, we're just going to do small level advertising that's going to be like top of funnel awareness and fucking list building.
And like Becca did good ads for High Rose. Like you could almost model that where, you know, it's like you install this code and don't cut your ad costs. I'll guarantee, like, you know, you'd be able to do just real direct shit and then just massive numbers ads about, you know. Yeah, this client, this was the upshot of their revenue.
Yeah. Well, the interesting thing about software is like, you know, Becker knows how to market and sell and 99% of software companies have no fucking clue what they're doing in that space. They borrow money. They're all like developers and engineers and they have not even considered the acquisition thesis.
Yeah.
And so when, like, you know where we will outgrow every dialer, like we'll smash them all. And it's just because, like, I know how to market. That's it. Like, we have a better product. We have a better product. Hands down, like, hands down, like fucking Henderson's contact rate to lead this month is 87%.
Fuck.
Right. They've talked to 87% of every lead that you've generated.
Yeah. Right.
Which is wild. You know, they would have been in the teens.
Yeah.
Before. And their whole team is on there. And so like that makes advertising way more effective when you can actually speak to them because most people are only talking to 10, 15 of leads.
Yeah.
That's not booking, that's just speaking to.
Yeah.
And they book half of them, you know, and then they sell a third of them. So it's like a 2% lead to sale.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, so if you can, if you can triple the amount of people you speak to, you'll triple your sales.
Yeah, it's like, it's like, it's sort of like tripling your advertising budget. Like, it's not. But it's like the effectiveness.
It's tripling your ccr.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's the same thing. If I can get three more people to get on three times the other people for the same price to get on that landing page, do you make more money? Yeah. And that's in my sales pitch because we're more expensive. And I go, if I said I could triple your CTR and your ads, would you pay me 10 grand a month? And they go, yeah. And I go, sweet. Well, I'm asking for 250 a seat. I'm going to triple your pickup rate, which means you're going to speak to triple the amount of leads. And then I have a calculator and it goes through. I was like, this is what you do on our system as an average client. It's not guaranteed, but, like, this is what the average does and I have to back that up. And like, there you go, mate. And I've seen people literally triple their business, literally in like a month because they go from speaking. They go from a 2% or 3% pickup rate to a 15. They're speaking to 8X the people, and it's like. And then they just overrun.
Yeah. Then they got their new problem.
Yeah. Which is great. And it's cool to see. And it's working really well. And we rarely lose clients. The only time we lose clients is if they're like, change, model, downsize, whatever. Like, you know, and the occasional, like, they just can't do the integrations because we're like a pretty custom software. Like, if you have a retard team, like, we're not the place.
Yeah, yeah.
You got to have some efficiency. What, so what sort of, what sort of offers are you seeing working well at the moment? Or people that you're speaking to or.
Like, health offers are going really, really well. You know, I'm like, online fitness, I'm seeing, like, it's really funny. Like, every, you know, everyone who can, who can sell is doing well.
Yeah.
You know, and it's like. And by that, you know, I've got dudes that are running like an online fitness offer. It's, you know, a four and a half thousand dollars offer and they're running it, you know, they have a team, small team, you know, and they're doing a 45% close rate.
Yeah, right.
And you know, 60% cash collection and they're running 50,000 a week profit. Dude. Stuck and you know, doing this thing.
And just one 4, $500 offer.
Yeah.
And happy with resign. They have a good resigner. They have a great product, you know, and I think that's really. When I think about the key and I even heard Becker talking about this. He will not be associated with anything. That is not a no brainer.
Yeah.
Like I'm good at sales and I don't have to sell for dialer. I just go like, hey, this is what it is. This is.
Yeah.
I go like, this is what it is, man. Do you want it? And if they go, oh, it's too expensive. I go, it's probably not. Like I had a guy the other day like yesterday, because we have a three seat minimum. And he goes, oh, I just need two seats. And I go, yeah, sorry mate, three minimum. And he goes, really? For 250 bucks, you're gonna not get a new client. I go, oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, listen. I go, oh man, I don't care if you sign up, dude, like sign up now, sign up later. You're gonna have to use this eventually. Like, I just don't.
It's like real urgency. You're almost like, hurry the fuck up, make a decision. Because I'm getting off this call irrespective of the outcome.
Yeah. And I'm like, mate, you're just not a big enough client for me to like, I'm not gonna change the rules for you. If you offer me 40 seats, I'll change the rules for you.
Yeah.
You know, but if you're gonna offer, you're just gonna be a. You know, and our customer service department is like fucking, if it's our fault, we'll move heaven and earth. If it's your fault, fuck you. That's literally. And if you're a dirtbag, fuck you twice.
That's the other good thing though about having a good product is like someone pisses you off. If you just wake up and you're like, I don't like that cunt's name. It's fucking fire him.
Like we fired that many clients. My Declan is my business part. We know each other for like 20 years using the army with me. He's like, he's Emily Skye's husband. So had big brands, sold it to fitness and lifestyle group, you know, all that kind of stuff. And like, doesn't give a fuck about money. I don't give a fuck about money. We both want to make more, but, like, we're not gonna sell our souls to do it, right?
Yeah.
And this guy was, like, rude to our onboarding stuff. He just fucking called him. He had, like, eight seats, and he goes, man, you're a dickhead. I fucking watched the call. You're a dickhead, bro. You're fired. Get out of here. We don't want your business. The guy was like, oh, this. He's like, man, post what you want. I'll post the fucking call. You're a dickhead. We have a no dickhead policy.
Yep.
If you want to stay, it's double the price you're gonna pay. Dickhead tax.
Yeah.
And he's like, I'll send you the proposal, and it will have a dickhead tax times two. If you want to sign it, you can sign it, mate. But until then, like, we don't want your business. You're an asshole. And, like, people are, like, shocked. It's like, mate, we have a line of people trying to sign up this fucking thing.
I love that. It's like, not only are you gonna pay double, but I'm gonna make sure you're aware that the reason is because you're a fucking wanker.
You're a dickhead. I love that.
And so good.
Yeah, it's been really good, actually. It's been really fun, like, because the previous business was just. It got to a point where it was, like, just unpleasant, you know?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so this is just so much more fun. And I was talking about yesterday, like, you know, my previous business, like, seventh level. It put me in a position where I was, like, ultimately just. Just an unhappy person. You know, I was running this big business, making tons of money, and I was just like, I was a worst dad. I was a worse husband. I was a worse friend. I was traveling. I was missing things, and I was like, what is the fucking point of this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I'd rather make less money and fucking have my wife, like, enjoy my company.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, and so, you know, took a step back and then reached a couple of boiling points where I was like, I just don't think this is the move for me. And I was starting to be surrounded by people that I just don't think. We're good. We're good for me, you know, there's.
That in this world. There's a lot.
Yeah.
Like that.
You know, there's that Bible Passage which is like, you know, like, you know, sort of, you know, if it's a, you know, if an idol made of gold or silver made by man, beware the idol which you worship.
Yeah, yeah.
People worship. They worship the wrong things, you know, and if you start to worship the God of click funnels, you know, nothing against those people, but they. They become like. I remember accepting like that 50 million award. You just get people coming up to you like you're the messiah.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's just like, I just saw.
Some shit on Internet, bro. Like, relax.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, but it's just, you know, and. And the way in which things are sold and the way in which things are presented is just like. It's just like, oh, this doesn't make you happy?
Yeah.
You know, like, this, like, this isn't the thing. And it's presented as the thing.
Yeah.
And it's like, you just need this and then you'll be enough, you know?
Yeah.
It's like, nah, it's like, it's not gonna work like that, guys. You know, and I've been in those rooms. I've been in the 100 million rooms, and it's like, I see a lot of unhappy people with wives.
The amount of people in that sort of world, I know, cheating on their wife and doing that's up.
Like, yeah, it's no bueno. And so I think, you know, when you get to run a business and that you enjoy that you. You get to do the things that you want and run it in the way that you want to run it. I mean, declar on the same page.
Like, yeah, it's awesome, dude.
You know, and we're gonna sell this thing, like, before it gets too big, like, I'm gonna try and get it to 10, 15 million a year, right? And then it'll be a 10 to 15 x top line exit. And we're setting it up from that. Like audited financials, day one, the whole books and dice, right? And it's like, once I do that, you know, like, I don't want to run the company. I don't want to be the CEO of it. I don't want. If HR is involved, I'm out. You know, I. I want to have fun and I want to do a thing. And if I can do that, then I'll. I'll be able to be like, stay the fun guy. But if I have to fucking go into CEO mode again, may is unpleasant. I'm not a nice CEO.
I get you.
You Know, so. But yeah, but I gotta go to the next meeting. But dude, this was an awesome chat.
Yeah, likewise, bro.
For a month it was nothing but plus, you know, nine one area codes and all the leads and they can't afford the product. Like the exchange rate doesn't make sense. Right. And so it fucking tanked sales because he wore it's an organic based marketing business and he. Or something of a culture and then it popped off in that culture and then skewed all of the new followers and all the people doing DMS and all the CTAs into people in those countries, they couldn't afford it. So it flooded the calendars with unqualified leads. It's fucking fascinating, dude.
That makes total sense though, because that's how it works.
If you never predict it.
Yeah. You'd never think would happen when you say it. It's like. I guess it took him a while to figure that out too.
Yeah, it took a while. It was like, you know, because you can then go in and like see the demographic shift. Like if I have a look in my socials, I'm like all us, uk, Canada, Australia.
Yeah.
I have like very, very little India Turkey. Like if you look at any of my socials, like it's less than 2 or 3%. Right. I'm like 90 Western countries and it's almost all male and it's all between like, like 22 and 50. Right. Like that's the, you know, demographics. I have like a hyper specific socials which like. And there's no fluff in there. Which means like my like brand reach is like the same as somebody with 10x who did a bunch of like viral posts.
Yeah, yeah, Yep.
I mean, so that's why like, you know, we at Dialer, like we don't do any paid advertising. It's all off. Like, it's just all website inquiries which are all coming. And like there's a direct correlation between when I post on YouTube, right. So if I like get lazy and don't post for two weeks on YouTube, like the leads just stop.
Man, that's so interesting.
And, but like, and then I was.
Gonna think more of your, like it's something new and then maybe they watch it, but like it feeds other shit to them as well.
Yeah, it's.
