How To Track, Scale & Hit Your Sales Targets (LIVE)
Matt Ryder, John, Andy, and Jimin discuss how to track and improve sales metrics. They cover discovery calls, show rates, close rates, and how to filter leads so your team hits targets even when external factors shift.
Alrighty. So what are the main kind of questions?
So probably I understand the process of like discovery, we're grouping strategy and sales closing. That makes sense. But the really probably the most important metrics to a sales manager and then we can dive into how they will be calculated because from everything that we're saying, probably looking at just a calendar view probably does a good job of that.
Yeah.
I've got total number of meeting types. So discovery or sales closing, the show up rate, which obviously is if you're looking at a single week, it's progressing over time. So that fluctuates quite a lot. Closing rate, number of closed deals, over completed sales, closing calls.
Yeah. So I guess if you're like. So the close rate is going to be in a percentage.
Right.
And it's going to be that one is going to be like Kohl's held.
Right, Right. Okay.
So, and so there's two because Kohl's held over closed deals.
Right?
Yeah.
Now that's, that's closing calls held.
Yeah.
Not Right.
Excluding discovery.
No, like. Yes, exactly.
Right.
So but you got the held because that's, that's ones that have shown up.
Oh, held means showing up.
You can say held turned up whatever it is you want.
Right.
Because scheduled to close is I guess probably a better overall metric because it like takes in like you still want to know that because that's going to be like guild based. But also some of those other factors that we talked about where it's like lollygag and only the best people through. So schedule to close. Close is going to be like booked. So it's like say closing calls booked right to close, but it's not going to take into account if half of them didn't turn up.
Yeah.
So with the same stats you'd have 50 and 25.
Yeah.
Right.
But this one is sort of probably better for the manager because like it's going to give overall efficacy because.
Yeah, it's building that broader context because you're not looking at a single metric. It's like what do all the metrics say?
Yeah. And so this has to take into account like you know this. Yeah. Again this is just the booked over the actual close. This is the held. Right. So they're, they're going to tell you different things. Like if that's low and that's high, that means they're not showing up, which you'd see in the no show rates anyway, but sort of gives you a more accurate indication of to the overall efficacy because like your revenue per book call.
Right.
Is take into account the total book.
Yeah.
So that's another one that I'd love to just dive in a little bit deeper is those monetary metrics and where they come from for a sales rep and sales manager.
Yeah, yeah. So when you're saying revenue per book call, you're not going to take into account the discovery calls.
Yeah, yeah.
Right. Because discovery calls are acting as like a. One, not everyone's going to do them, but. But two, like I think I remember I said last week. So you've got kind of like the two forms. You've got the this and you've got the this, you know, I mean.
Yeah.
So in this one, you're pushing them through.
Right.
So you're going to have. And then you're going to push them out, essentially.
Right.
So in this case, that, like, the discovery call is acting as like the liver of the sales process. Right. It's the filtration mechanism, because the marketing here and the sales here, like, you're kind of ramping everyone through.
Yeah.
Whereas out here you're pushing them out.
Right.
Get out. And so, like, realistically, like the discovery call, you don't even need it because you're ramping everybody out. So that would just be a straight sales call, you know, I mean, because the marketing is acting as that filtration system, you know, and in the. In the examples that I sent you, it's that application. You know, there's an application funnel where it has like the. If this, then that.
Yeah, Right.
And so they're going to either end up seeing this or seeing this.
Yeah.
So, like, if I might have one where I'm running both the people who, like, answer all my questions perfectly, they're going to go straight through to a sales call, and then I'm going to try and sell everybody that's there in the discovery call.
No.
Well, so, like, if I'm disqualifying everybody out, I'm going to have a shorter sales process. So that would just be a sales call.
Right.
Straight away. And then I'm just going to try and sell everybody.
Right.
But if I. If the marketing is not doing that and we're going more of a wide approach, then I'm going to put them into a discovery hole here, and then that's going to be used to push everybody out. There'd be a sales call here and then we end up with the money over here. Yeah, but you know what I mean, it really just depends on the methodology. And you might have both running simultaneously. Some might have discovery Calls on some might depending on where the marketing is coming from.
And that's all really clear. And so who is setting that discovery versus sales like that top or that bottom way? Who is deciding that?
Well, it'll be like they're going to come in on a different marketing calendar.
Yeah.
Right.
So they come in, they ask 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 questions depending how they answer this one.
Right.
That it's going to be there. You know, just to say it's really easy. This one is like how much money do you have to invest? And it's like 0 to 5k and 5k plus.
Right.
That's going to be like a conditional logic. They might go straight to a discovery call. They might go straight to a sales call.
Yeah.
Because we've identified well, we don't need to go through that extra filtering step. These people do the discovery call, go to their sales call and they buy. These people just buy.
Yeah.
Right.
So we do it that way.
Yeah.
But then like that's not anything red base has to worry about because the person's just gonna come in.
It's just coming in.
Yeah.
I mean although like it would like that's where like if they are doing both, that's where like having aggregate number of discovery calls and aggregate number of sales calls doesn't work because they're gonna skip that step. Yeah, but that's less likely.
Yeah.
So like that might be version 1.1 where they do all that kind of stuff. But like, you know what I mean? Like or maybe you can filter out people that have done a discovery call and a sales call. So you can see the close rate on the people who just went straight here and the close rate who. The people who did this.
Right.
So you probably need to be able to filter it like what they've done. Jimin.
Yeah.
Per person and at a team level.
Right.
Well, I would say not per person. You just want to be able to go like. Because what you don't want to do is see. Because you might end up having 110% of people.
Right.
Because let's just say 100 people book a sales call direct and 55 and 50 people book discovery calls.
Yeah.
And you're looking at the pass through rate.
Right.
And if you. Let's say it's 25 people. But let's just say that now, now there's 125 sales calls. So if you go and do your discovery call to sales call.
Right.
I mean all the, all the math.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
So you'd have to be able to take them out.
That makes sense. So when we were talking earlier around pass through rates.
Yeah.
It's not something you need on a per client or customer basis. You're just, you can have an aggregate view of that.
Right.
Like, like of the discoveries call set. How many pass through.
Yes.
And would you want that at a per sales rep?
Yes.
Yeah.
Because again that's going to tell you like, you know, because if, if they, if they have the goes discovery and then sales call and then they're going to like, you know, they're going to do whatever they're going to do there.
Yeah.
But there's also these.
Right.
So disqualify, show, no show, cancellation, reschedule, whatever. But you know, if it's, if it's 100 here and then from there, you know, it's 25. 25. 25. 25. It's like sweet. 25 have passed through.
Yeah.
So now we've got bang, 25. And then it's like, well, 20 of them show up.
Right.
And then we've got, well, you know, 10 of them close. So it's a 50% close rate and 80% show rate.
Right.
So that would be like a pass through of, of, of, of 25% J. Yeah. Assuming 100 showed up.
Yeah.
Right.
Because it might be 120 and then they show. I mean, and that's booked.
Yeah.
Do we. Because this is what I'm going to have to tell John is at what point do you classify as pass through? Is it. I've had the discovery, I've qualified them, we've booked the next call, they have passed through and then if they don't show, they're dropped there or so it's.
Still passed through but it's a no show to this call.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's.
Yeah, that's what I thought too.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it would, it's still an opportunity. Even if they don't pass, even if they don't show up.
Yeah.
Still.
Yeah.
They're still qualified. And that's really the metric that you want. And then if they're no show, that's a different metric. So yeah, you've got your pass through metric. And then we had no show just calculated as number of no shows over calls booked. But would you then need it a.
No.
Because you're going to segment it call by call, Right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So like there's a, there's a clear delineator here.
Yeah.
Between discovery call and a sales call. Because they'll be totally different.
Right.
Because like this might have come in from an sdr.
Right.
From an sdr. Someone calling it also might have come in from a. Like a marketing campaign.
Yeah.
And the source becomes critical too.
It's good to know because you'll have totally different show rates.
Yeah.
You know what I mean? And then from there you would, if you would then have different pass through rates. But that's been traditionally really hard to find is like what's the pass through rate per lead source? You know, I mean, because you're just filtering through like a lot of data, right?
Yeah.
And so that's where part of my challenge work with John and Andy is like are we just straight up showing this information or are we allowing for filtering and customization?
Well, it depends on how much I guess the AI is going to need to see it anyway. So like whether or not I think.
It needs to all of it.
I think it needs to be there.
Yeah.
But whether or not in the initial terms people have access to all of it or whether it's more like those insights are generated for them based on like, you know, like I guess if you took, if you fed the AI like look for statistical outliers. Yeah, right. Then it would be able to see. Oh well, S SDR has a 72% show rate and Meta has 54%. Sure.
Right.
Yeah, that's statistically significant. Yeah, that would be an interesting insight.
Yeah.
You know, the way that I've been thinking about it in the background is maybe like an end of week synopsis like yeah, feedback on. Here are the insights, here's what the recommendation is and I mean I haven't spoken to John about this, but being able to prompt and ask like yeah, is is where I'm thinking as well. Because my otter that I use sometimes for like really long technical meetings or exploring a lot of different things, I put it around the background and then you know, two days later I'm like what were we even talking about? And I go back and like what was the outcome of this specific feature that we discussed? And it's so valuable. So I've kind of been thinking about that in the background as get prompting the insights. But a deeper and more enriching experience being I want to then be able to ask so that you can feed that back to me with the statistical numbers of relevance as well. Kind of where you have been thinking is yeah, 100%.
So it's like there might be some things that are like just glaringly obvious. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Where it's like hey man, like Johnny's shit You know what I mean? Yeah.
Right.
So. Because it's like. Yeah. Like if you've got all these people and then if you were to have them all checked.
Right.
But then you kind of uncheck this guy and then everything goes up. It's like, well, that guy's dragging everyone down.
Yeah.
Like what's going on there?
Yeah, yeah.
Which is where it goes. Links back to. Remember how I said last time being able to link things back to like the oura rings and the whoops and stuff.
Yeah, right.
Yeah. I mean eventually. Because like then you'd be able to see like, oh, Johnny's not sleeping and then you could literally predict that like a week out.
Yeah.
You know, hey, last time he wasn't sleeping. There's a real issue.
Yeah.
You know, but because what I go back and I do is I redefine the calculations and the priority of what, how John will calculate it, but then also how Andy will need to work to display it.
Yeah. And then I think like if we break it up into, right. Like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. And then break it up into like that in terms of like, you know, so it's like three different distinct time periods and then like that. Because ideally like sort of, I guess what sort of got this whole thing, we started this whole thing off is like I reckon that there would be significant difference in show up rate per time of day.
Yeah.
And show up rate per day.
Yeah.
But then that gets a bit challenging based. If it's based on the caller's time is different to the. Sorry, the customer's time is different to the coolest time.
Well, no, because you're going to be basing it off like our stuff. Jimin. And most people are going to be in the same country.
Yeah.
Variance is like hours, a couple hours, not 12 hours.
Yeah, yeah. Because you could just go like. Because you know, let's just say like this is a terrible time. And this is a terrible time.
Yeah.
And you know like let's say this is a terrible time for whatever reason.
Yeah.
Right.
And if you've got like, let's say this is money and this is money. And this is money.
Yeah.
And you've got a fucking hour long team meeting there. What a waste of time.
Yeah.
So because if you have 10 reps and they do one hour slots, that's 10 hours.
Yeah.
So that one meeting.
Yeah.
If that has an 80% show rate and a 40% close rate.
Right.
Then you've got, you know, 10 meeting slots, you've got eight. Yeah. I mean so you got like three guaranteed closes.
Yeah.
Right.
If it's 5K per close, it's $15,000 to have that meeting there when you could fucking have it here.
Right.
Like that is. But because no one, like, I track that with end of days and I use CHAT GPT. So I put the end of days in CHAT GPT and then from there I go like, hey, can you do an association of the date, convert that into the day of the week and then give me the shop rate per day of week.
Yeah.
And like in a percentage form. I just get ChatGPT to do that for me.
Yeah.
And so then from there, like, I make adjustments, but, like, I'm the only person I know that does that.
Yeah.
Now I'm sure there are people that do it, but, like, I'm the only one that I know that does it. So if I release this video, more people will do it. But, but, yeah, so like. But I want that to be like, you know, because if you can flag it for like, good times that are being underutilized.
Yeah.
You know, that's super handy because you have the time of the day and if you block them. Whoa. I don't know. That was a thing.
Right.
So because. Because if you block them off appropriately, you know, what was that? If you hold it. No, I don't know what that was.
So the next layer of that will be into the prompting of AI, because what your. The video that you shared is definitely is the framework for the prompt for AI. It's the parameters. Because otherwise it'll go so broad or so general that it doesn't have value. So the more details you can feed it, the more enriched the insights are come back. So, like, there's really obvious stuff like this that makes sense, but then being able to go more specific and deeper is kind of the next.
I think that's also where, like, having a hive mind kind of thing is helpful because it. Well, because it. Well, if you have. If you have a hundred accounts that are on this.
Yeah.
And everyone's seeing a similar trend.
Yeah.
Of that or of that.
Right.
And all of a sudden it goes like, you know, you're asking it, how do I increase the show rate? And it goes, to be honest, show rates across are down this month. You know, I mean, across everyone that we can see.
Yeah.
Maybe that's not the thing to focus on. Maybe it's just an anomaly. I mean, something like that. Or, you know, I mean.
Or like, basically like you were saying about the Black Friday sales.
Yeah.
Election stuff.
Yeah. Like Are there any. You know, because at the end of like a really experienced sales manager looks at it and goes like why would I not make a change? As opposed to why would I make a change?
Yeah.
So you have like step one is like external factors. I spoke about this in the thing in the video, I think are there any external factors that are causing the change?
Right.
And is it short term?
Right.
Like the election. Like the, the election. So the consumer confidence index.
Right.
The CCI which you can get a live API to.
Right?
Yeah.
So like that if that's trending downward, so will your show rates and close rates and stuff generally speaking for like, for most things.
Right.
So it's like, like because it's, there's a tremendous amount of uncertainty during an election. Uncertainty goes up.
Right.
It doesn't matter what side you're on, no one knows what's going to happen.
Yeah.
And then from there like in, if Trump wins like red states the CCI will skyrocket and in blue states it'll plummet and then vice versa.
Right.
So sort of, you know, external factors. Then from there it's like you've got two sort of types of changes that you can make and you can do additive or you can do like, like, like subtract. So it's like the problem with like constant additive measures is that like they compound.
Yeah.
Into like over complex processes and this is the one that like people never try.
Yeah, right.
Yeah. So it's like how can I make things simpler?
Going back to. And can't believe I haven't asked this but where the people that you have sold to so far, the company that you have their US based. Right. Is this largely going to be US based companies with US based customers?
Yeah, yeah, for the most part. Cool. Be cool to have like an insights like economic. Because the real things that like for example, like if somebody uses funding, I could probably predict their revenue ups and downs based on interest rates.
Right.
So they're usually like, they're usually like five economic factors that really affect a business. Business called like a five forces model. You can look that up.
Yeah.
But like for example, like if somebody does funding. So in the States you can borrow for anything, right? You can borrow for a fucking fitness package. As terrible as an idea as that is they do in Australia as well business school pay.
Right.
So you'll get like, you know, it's a $5,000 offer and they predominantly the people put like say 500 down and they borrow 4,500.
Right.
That business gets paid, you know, 3,500 plus the 5. So they make 4K and then the lending company makes $1,000 profit. But it's extended out over time.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean so like they're financing it. So what happens is like you're, you're the interest rate, right? Like the actual, like the, like the Fed interest rate will play a huge role in that. And then there are usually anywhere from two to four different factors that, that will go up and down.
Right.
The first is like, like debt to equity ratio is one. So like I figured out when they brought debt to equity ratio in, I figured out that basically I said, hey, we're not to offer funding to any males between the age of 29 and 40. And everyone's like, why? I was like, don't fucking worry about it, just don't do it. Not that too. Like don't do it. So like what? Because they brought in debt to equity ratio, so usually speaking it's going to be that's when a man is going to like buy their family home and they haven't had time to pay any of it off yet.
Yeah.
So their debt to equity ratio is shit. So it's like they're never going to get approved.
Yeah.
Right.
Then it's income and then it's like income verification and then there's like credit score. I mean so like, but like the overall interest rate and then inflation rate, like inflation kills a lot of offers and they don't really realize it. So like if the interest rate of a state and the inflation rate are going up significantly.
Yeah.
The fucking efficacy of the sales in that state are going to drop.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean like that's just a fact of life that people don't even think about. But it really is a massive thing because like their money doesn't go as far and you're asking them to buy something which is not required.
Yeah.
So like, you know, I don't know how much of that we want to go into. Probably none of it at the moment. But it's just like those are all factors that I would think of if I'm gonna make like a significant change. So maybe if someone's like prompt, maybe there's some sort of thing is like, hey, if you're, maybe we. There's some sort of like, you can see they're scrambling. I don't know, like, you know, it's like, hey, like maybe there's like an ask for help and it's like just consider these factors.
Right?
Yeah.
So, so as a product, that's where it comes into whether how much we want to refine that and bring that in for the like, feeding in those sales manager insights versus, like even having like a public opinion or like a business opinion that can be like, if.
You, if you did like a CRO, like a next thing is like, you know, the Chief Sales Officer CRO Edition, which is like a thousand dollars a month because, like, just for like Statista, it's 400 bucks a month.
Yeah.
And like Statista just gives you access to the data.
Yeah, right.
Which you can, like, feed onto a fucking thingy, Bob.
Yeah, well, that's.
Yeah, that's the other layer of this is if you have enough companies and users in there feeding enough data, then you can create value in that data. Yeah, right. That you can then either sell or make accessible to certain people.
Yeah.
Which I could imagine would be really appealing to like those CRO conditions.
Yeah, exactly. That is, I think, would be great. I don't know. Like, that's, that's filtering, Right. I guess in the background. Like if you're filtering per block.
Yeah.
And then per day, you know, and it's like. I don't know if that's super possible, but whether, whether, whether or not you go like, hey, listen, like 8 to 11 is block A. Yeah.
Right.
And then it's like 11 to 1 or whatever it is.
Right?
Yeah, like 8 to 12, 12 to 3 and whatever. They're put into blocks so you can filter per block. Because, like, that is when it comes to optimizing your sales team, that is really, really, really useful information.
Yeah.
You know, like the show rates and all that kind of stuff. You can calculate all that shit with a fucking spreadsheet.
Yeah, right.
And I think what we want. I want to do is you want to make sure that we can give the simple stuff that you can get with a spreadsheet. But the whole point of this is to be able to break this stuff down further, you know what I mean? Without having, like, too much trouble. Whereas, like, to get this at the moment is not easy.
Yeah, but that's the value, right?
Yeah. You know, so this is where it came from, which is like being able to, to have some of this insight. Because if you really realize that, like, this is just garbage time, then don't use it.
Yeah.
You know, see what happens when you add an extra hour down here.
Right?
Like what happens there? Yeah, let's start at 8 instead of 9.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, there are some interesting insights. You know, there's a couple of accounts where guys are doing 10 calls in a row. Like, I guarantee you, if you looked at it, their last four calls, they never close a single cent. Like, it's a giant waste of time, right? Which is sort of like common sense, but people don't think about it, you know, so, you know, again, if you can break down the close rate and you can filter it per day, per person, and you're like, well, these fucking dudes, like, they don't close anything here. So maybe, you know, you have to split it up in a certain way because some guys will just go ballistic and they'll do 12 closing calls a day, six days a week. And it's like, what are you. Like, are you actually effective?
Yeah.
And the overall numbers might look alright, but they're not really, you know, I mean, like, there has to be a time where like, you're like, hey, calm the fuck down.
Yep.
Yeah, no, that's. That's super helpful. That's giving me a lot. It's a good challenge for sure, because it's not just about the calculation is actually really straightforward forward. It's more the visualization, which is it's getting it all into a single system where it makes sense and it isn't like. I don't know. But that's where I went with John and Andy. Trying them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because even if you did have a calendar like this and it was broken up like this, and this is what you saw and you had like. You know what I mean? And then you could see like, what happens when I turn different things on and off.
Yeah.
Like if we had that in the background that we could around with. With as like a, like a dev version of it.
Yeah.
Even if it was ugly, but it was like, oh, like, look at the closes. They're all here.
Yeah.
You know, it's like, oh, well, that's. That's interesting. You know what I mean?
Yeah.
And then it's like, oh, look at the no shows. They're all. They're all like, you know, here by.
Like, you've been doing this for so long. Do you have your, like, general rules around?
My general rules are Monday morning and Friday afternoon suck.
Yeah, right.
Yeah, generally speaking. But again, like, it is not always.
Yeah.
You know, so. But in generally speaking, like, you don't want people taking too many calls in a row. Like, if someone's taking seven calls in a row, I'd flag that.
Yeah.
Be like, hey, like, what are you doing, mate? Like, that's silly. You know, generally speaking, like from like a numbers perspective, just for like scalability reasons, you kind of want to have like certain, you know, you sort of want to have like, you know, a Show rate of 65%.
Right.
You want to be upwards of that. If it's below that, it's an issue. If it's at or above that, it's probably not your biggest lever to move. Jermaine, you've got like 35% as a close rate of calls held. Like closed from held is like pretty good. If you're way above that, you're either over filtering or too cheap.
Right.
If you're way under that, there can be a number of different reasons, right. Which could be intentional or because people suck or whatever. But if you have like 45% plus close rate, you're too cheap or you're over filtering. So like I can say like, that's a flag for me.
Yeah.
There's an offer is closing at 60%. I'd be like, what are you doing? Like, why, like, what's your cost of acquisition?
Yeah.
You know what I mean? Like, what is this? Why don't we get this down to 35%, but like 2x the, like 2x the amount of calls booked.
Yeah.
Right.
Which then will result in a drop of close rate. And then I shouldn't freak out about the drop on close rate, you know what I mean? Because I can do things to close rates. A lagging indicator, you know?
Yeah, it's like.
Well, it's a lagging indicator because I can fuck with it up here. Yeah. I mean, so like, it's not. It's important to know, but you're not gonna make a ton of decisions off it. You're gonna look at it and then see what decisions led to it being that, you know, I mean, because if I like open the floodgates with every Tom, Dick and Harry, the close rate will go down. And if I make it really, really targeted in my marking rate. The close rate.
Yeah.
If I have a really high value product that is cheap as when it should be, you know, this many expensive, right. Then the close rate is going to be high because it's a fucking hell of a deal.
Yeah.
Right.
You know, so like, so many factors go into if that close rate and, and to be honest, the, the skill of the person is, is sort of nearly here nor there. Like, I can take an amazing closer who's really highly skilled and I can dump the ass out of their close rate and vice versa. Obviously, the better somebody is, the more they'll close.
Right.
But again, it's not like the be all and end all, you know?
Yeah.
Makes sense.
That's. Yeah.
That's probably enough for me to go back and then reprioritize and relook at these calculations, because I think I've included maybe things that are a bit, like, less valuable and rudimentary, but.
Yeah.
And can I get the.
Yeah, I'll upload it. Awesome.
That would be great. Thank you so much.
