Is it possible to be natural at sales? - CIFC Episode 138

Welcome back to another episode of Coffee Is for Closers. Today we're going to talk about is it possible to be a natural at sales?

I guess we'll find out. Ex Special Forces sniper turned entrepreneur, I've scaled numerous businesses to eight figures. My name is Matt Ryder. This is my podcast, and I'm telling you to put that coffee down.

So we'll talk to IT Sales.

You're pretty good at it, people have said.

Do you reckon it's possible to just be a killer at it without training?

Probably, yeah.

Yeah.

And. And is there any, like, I think we've sort of danced around the fact that maybe that job, Jordan Belfort sort of is like, you know, that it's.

Clearly a very talented human being.

Yeah. Like, he has a method, the straight line, persuasion. You've done it, you've done the course, you've learned it, and it's just him being him.

Yeah. I think. I'm not sure if it, Like, I think it will get you to a point. Obviously, Jordan Belfort's gotten to a fairly big point, but, I mean, he was scamming people, you know? You know, so there's that.

That makes you wonder, right? So imagine he was, like, totally above board the whole time, was never doing the shit that he did. Would he have, like. He wouldn't have the profile that he has now.

He wouldn't have made enough money, I don't think.

Yeah.

Like, I wonder how he would have gone. Like, obviously now the things he does are above board and whatever. Right. He learned his lesson. He's reformed. He's a good boy.

Yeah.

But without the profile and like, all of that in the past, do you think that led to be him being as, like, capable?

I don't know. So I think it's. I think it's sort of. I think it's like anything, right? You can be a tremendously gifted basketball player. You can just come out of the womb. Good. You just have it for some reason. It doesn't mean you'll be great. You know, there's a really interesting story. Kobe Bryant was famous for being, like, the hardest worker. He would just, like, he was insatiable for his. Like, he would get there four hours before practice, stay four hours after. He would do four to five times what everybody else did. And he had an interesting thing, because he was, like, notoriously mean to his teammates.

Really? Yeah.

It was real asshole.

Yeah.

I didn't know that.

And so they sort of asked him why, and he said, well, man, I see these guys coming into practice, they get there 30 minutes before and they leave 20 minutes after and he goes, I just don't trust him. So I'm not going to give him the ball. He was like, I'm here perfecting my craft, working my ass off, trying to become the greatest basketball player that I can possibly be. Those dudes are just clocking in and clocking out. I'm just not going to give him the ball.

Wow.

It's like, that's fair.

Yeah.

You know, and I think Kobe Bryant was probably gifted, but like he works so hard that like, that's what made him great. And I think Jordan was the same way. You know, Jordan was not a particularly. He's definitely a tremendously gifted athlete. You know how high he could jump and you know, like a 48 inch vertical and shit like that.

Yeah.

But like he worked really, really, really, really hard.

Yeah.

So I think like the perfect person has like enough natural acumen to where it doesn't become a hindrance. Because I think when you're just really gifted at something, generally speaking, you don't have to try to be good at it. If you have to try, you usually just hit a ceiling of where like the, the effort, reward ratio just kind of caps out.

Yeah.

I'm sure it's the same in dogs. I'm sure you get dogs that are just naturally gifted at things.

Yeah.

And they might not become the best because they just like the trainer is like, oh, they're good enough.

Yeah, you say that.

Yeah.

I think that is especially evident. Like it was. This is certainly the case with me in school.

Right.

Like I'm, I'm pretty intelligent.

Right.

So I never studied and so I was always.

Yeah.

But so like I always ahead for the first little bit. I was like, ah, got it easy.

Killing it.

I'm not doing any of the work and I didn't do any of the work and then suddenly I'm the dumbest in the class. I'm like, oh, I'm behind.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that happens pretty frequently. I think one of the worst things like for you is being naturally gifted at, at things because then you just don't put in the effort.

Yeah.

Like people who are naturally gifted at sales. Have you ever seen like a, like, is there a phenotype? Like what? Like, is there a person that you can describe and you're kind of describing all of them?

I think that people. It's funny, right? Because I guess like my criticism is so harsh on what I would consider good that I consider it very, very, very few people actually Good.

Okay, let's define that then. What, what to be for you to look at someone and go, oh, that dude's awesome at sales.

What?

Well, it's one, so a lot of it's results driven, you know what I mean? Second of it is, how fast can you adapt to a new sales environment? Like, if I put you on a new offer, can you make sales day one?

Okay, so I can, right?

You know, so it's like, it's like I can, I can spend half a day or even a couple of hours going through all the material of the new offer and I can just sort of go, okay, yeah, this is how I'll sell it. And then I can create a script and I can go, and obviously it's not going to be my final script, but that'll be pretty good enough to where I would say within my first five calls, I'll make a sale.

Okay.

Whereas most people take two to three weeks to kind of figure out an offer, which I find very frustrating because, like, I can do it, but I've had practice at it. Yeah, it's definitely like a skill. You just kind of go in. Same way you can probably see a bunch of different dogs and figure out quickly what's going on. Yeah, it's just a skill set that you have to acquire by going through lots of different types of selling.

Yeah.

So, but how, like, how fast they can adapt is definitely a big one. How the questions they ask is always a really big one. Like I have this one sales guy, Josh, is a phenomenal sales dude. Like, just very good. Definitely has areas where they can improve, but is really good. And like the questions that I get are always very specific. They're not necessarily very about one scenario. They're more conceptual or principle based questions, which is a much more constructive way because like people come to me all the time, oh, I have a client that said this. It's like. And like, I don't know how you want me to diagnose that. Like, so. Whereas a lot of people just go, oh, we'll say this. Like that is an easy answer. It's like, oh, well, they do this, say this. But the real answer is like, well.

How do they get to that?

How do they get there?

Yeah.

And what are you trying to do? And what decisions have been made along the way to where that like now I can give you the scenario. Whereas all that is like principle and concept based thinking instead of like just outcome based thinking. And I think really good sales reps, they remove like the individual red herring, circumstances and just trying to work off a base of like, in general, this is how I want it to flow and what's the thought process behind it and same way you would with anything. Really.

Yeah.

Do you ever find yourself when you're coaching people that you sometimes, like, you can't answer their question in the way that they want because you say, like, I would never like you. When a prospect says this, what do you say? And you say, well, I would never get to the point where that could come out of their mouth is that.

I've said that tons of times.

Yeah. Yeah.

So people, people ask me about like the. Well, it's actually funny because it happened to me the other day, but it's because I didn't really have a chance to do a sales call, but I was asked for references and that's such a rare occurrence for me. Like, it's so incredibly rare.

They wanted references of. For you.

Right. Okay.

Yeah. But I didn't get a chance to do a sales process. It was very quick.

Right.

Kind of antiquated process. And that makes perfect sense that they asked for them because I didn't have the opportunity to build the trust.

Yeah.

To show me skills that I would need, you know, so they asked for references and now it's blowing out. Like, this is now going. Because I was like, well, I can't really give them to you, man. Like, they're all eight figure business owners.

Yeah.

You're going to be waiting five weeks.

Yeah.

You know, so how. What do you want me to do here?

Yeah.

They're like, well, I want to speak to someone. I was like, I can get you like the ops guy of one of them.

Yeah.

Other than that, man, like, you're out of luck, you know? Like, it just is what it is. If it's a deal breaker, hey, it's fine. I get it's a deal breaker. But some. But like, you know, that's one of the hard things as well is like, I think a lot of sales reps and that's something that I've learned is it's like you have to just let your ego go and just sometimes you just have to do stuff, you know, like, you should not say no to business in general, obviously. Like, there are. If there are scams or whatever, but if it's something that you could really take it and run with it and you have to. If you have to jump through hoops, then jump through the hoops. It kind of is what it is, you know?

Yeah.

But going back to like the naturally gifted sales Thing, definitely the questions they ask. I think you know, how much knowledge they consume. You know, one of the things, whenever I'm coaching people, I'm always like, okay, if you guys, like, it's an. Sales is an academic pursuit. You can. So someone can have a proclivity towards math, you know, and, and. But they need to still do study and they need to do a practical application in order to be really, really good. It's the same thing with sales. And what I see most of the time from sales reps is that they don't. They do the minimum in terms of like study. So like at seventh level, we provide role plays, study times, question answers, tonality training. Objection. Handling training, scripting training, all that kind of stuff. But it's like the guys will just come to the lectures and it's because it's very difficult for us to test them. You know, like, it's sort of. It'll be very hard for us to create actual tests of competency. So essentially, like you just sort of, you know, everyone's a pass.

Yeah, yeah.

Which creates issues in itself. But what that. So when I'm coaching them, I'm like, hey, you guys are. Pretend that you guys were studying to do surgery on a loved one. Like, you wouldn't just come to the lectures.

Yeah.

You know, and so that's a good.

Way to put it. Actually. I'm still in that. That's a good one. You.

You would do more because you would try and intake as much information to be as proficient as humanly possible by the time you got to the end date. And so I said, like, you guys have to look at it that way and you have to study it. And if. And if you do, you become really good at it. Like, because you can understand it. I believe anyone can be good at sales. Anyone. Anyone who's like, has a modicum of intelligence.

Okay.

You know, because it's a problem solving activity. So.

Right.

If you have like a low iq, it's very difficult to be good at sales.

Sure, sure.

In the same way it's difficult to be at anything.

So what.

What do you think wins out? I mean, obviously the. The combination is perfect, but natural sales acumen versus, like doing a course and putting in the work but not going over the top, who's going to win? Like, if someone just does the, like, they. They get any pq, they probably the natural. They watch all the stuff. They just sit there. You reckon the natural guy's gonna.

Yeah, I think it's like anything the natural guy, like in high School, the natural athletes just dominate everybody. And in college, it changes. And the pros, it changes because now you've got time. You know, time is on the side of the person who grinds, I suppose.

Yeah.

So. And you see it all the time. You see you guys peak in high school all the time. Just people who are just physically athletically gifted and. But that's different than a skill set, you know, so you might be not. You might not be a natural at sales, but you might be a naturally persuasive person.

Yeah.

Okay.

Like, I would consider you a naturally persuasive person.

Yeah, well, that's what I was going to say. So, like, what are the traits that make someone good at sales? Naturally would be being persuasive and influence. Being able to read a person's body language and tonality and stuff like that.

And, like, for me, because I moved so much, I had to develop certain skill sets to be able to befriend people quickly. So I had to. And, you know, and then you kind of develop a personality that is good at, you know, figuring out people quick so you can figure out how to, you know, get into the social network, as it were.

Yeah.

So that's a benefit to me. That's where, like, I'm quite witty. So I have that. Cause I was fat and moved a lot. It's like, you know, so, like, you.

Gotta get good at making friends.

Exactly.

Exactly.

So, you know, that's definitely an asset to me. So, like. Yeah, I think if you're naturally persuasive, if you're somewhat charismatic as well, if people are just happy to kind of just be led, you know, and then if you're. I mean, empathy definitely helps. I definitely don't have much of that, but empathy or the ability to fake empathy is pretty good.

Yeah.

Natural acting acumen, I think, is really good.

Yeah.

Because you kind of have to, like, you have to act the part, you know, there's no limit to that. I think one of the good things that Jeremy always says is, like, when you watch a movie, like, that's 100% scripted.

Yeah.

So there's no reason why you want a sales call. Cannot.

Yeah. That's interesting. I've never thought about it that way.

Right.

In that all.

Yeah.

Okay. That's actually kind of blowing my mind a little bit, because when I think of scripting a sales call, whenever you say, like, oh, I've got to work off the script, and I see, like, at the challenge and stuff, what you've got on the screen, I'm always like, like, how did, how do people not tell, like, even my own, myself, like, when I make content, it's always just me waffling nonsense. Because the moment I read off a script, it's I. You can tell I'm reading. You know, never mind that you can see my stupid eyes going left to right on the teleprompter. But like, you can tell that I'm reading. And I've always kind of thought that of the sales calls, like, but I guess if you're running the same thing over and over, you get to the point where it just comes out as, as your own.

You have to memorize it.

Yeah.

So like one of the reasons why Jeremy's keynotes are so good. If you want to find out more about that, let us know@matt7.com we'll sell you a keynote. He memorizes the whole thing. So he writes it from scratch for that particular client. So if they're in insurance or whatever and what the business owner says they want to get out of it because it might be in front of a thousand people or 5,000 people, he scripts it and memorizes it. That's very difficult to do.

Does he script it to the word.

To the word.

Wow. And memorizes it.

That's how his brain works though.

Wow.

So he needs that level of like, detail.

Yeah.

Whereas for me, like, I would do dot point detail. Yeah. I'm much more of a dot point guy myself. Right.

Yeah.

But like, you know, but if I have a look at like the power of his content, every reel is scripted. I mean, every YouTube video is scripted. And like all of his presentations are scripted. It's like he's really good at that. And it shows in like the virality of his just day to day content just is so heavily consumed because, like it is very polished, but it doesn't look like it's scripted, you know, so that's one thing. Like when you're, when you're learning a new sales script. That's why, like, for me, I have a generic sales script. It's very, very, like certain questions are highly scripted, but I have like an insert and it's just like a blank spot. And then I'll just insert the most appropriate thing.

Okay.

To what the person's been saying.

Right.

So that's how, that's how it sounds. Completely unscripted. Because I'm talking to you about your specific problems using the language that you've used.

Yeah.

And then I put some of my language and then you use some of my language. And then we start to, you know, kind of, like, start to, like, mirror each other, which is a sign that the conversation is going really well. And then, like. So you shouldn't really think it's scripted at all.

Yeah.

And then it's like. It's how you say it. Like, if I'm like. And I'll. And I'll script it all in, like. So I have notes in the script. I have. My pauses are like dot, dot, dot. I'll have tonality cuesly. Red is, like, skeptical, you know, or like, orange is curious. So I'll be like, so. So that. That way that you're doing it now, like, do you. Do you. Do you like the way that you're doing it? And that's just. That's totally scripted. So it goes that way that you're doing it now, dot, dot, dot. Do you. Do you pause, like, with, like, an italics? Right. The way that you're doing it now, all in red. So it's like a skeptical tone. So you just learn how to read your own legend, your own scripting.

Yeah.

And then from there, it gets good. And then you can have different ways of emphasizing different words to get different outcomes. And you just sort of like, as long as you know what you're trying to get out of it, then you can pick and choose on the way.

Have you ever seen a comedian twice, like, do the same show?

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.

It kind of.

It breaks the veil.

Yeah.

It's upsetting. Especially when they're engaging with someone and. And then you see them the next night engage with, like, a different person, but in the exact same way, and you're like, oh, it felt so natural.

Yeah.

Like Schultz. Like Andrew Schultz. I'm sure, like, all that stuff is scripted.

Yeah.

He's just looking for a biracial couple looking for, you know, like, you know. And they're all going to be there.

Yeah.

So it's like he just has 40 bits in his head and he's like, that bit. That bit.

That bit.

That bit. That's why it's so funny.

Yeah.

Like, no one's naturally that funny.

Yeah.

It's like no one's naturally that good at sales.

Okay.

So you could be naturally good, but you're not going to be naturally great. It's definitely going to be a scripting and a process that's going to sort of refine that down to make people actually.

Yeah.

What you would categorize as a really good salesperson.

And I think at the end, it doesn't matter. Like, the people who are in that top 1%. You'd find a mix of everybody.

Yeah. Okay.

You know, because, like, some of the guys have just. They just really studied it and just. They just become vacuums for. For knowledge when it comes this kind of stuff, because they get into it. I think. I think the biggest denominator. Common denominator. Will be passion.

Yeah.

For it. You know, the guys who just are really interested in sales. Like, I would say, like. Like, my. Like, my peak. Right. Will not be as high as, like, Marco's peak in sales. I would say I'm probably there. I'll get better over the years just because, like, of course. Experience. Right. But, like, I have no need.

You're not actively trying.

I don't need to anymore. Like, I've hit a point where I'm good enough to sell anything that I would need to sell, and it's not really my job anymore. My job is to help people sell. And all those people are significantly below me in terms of skill set. So, like, I don't really need to push myself to fix them to get them up to a good standard. And then from there, Jeremy's a lot of levels above me, and he still is getting better and better and better and better because he loves it. He's just so passionate about it. Whereas for me, I'm more passionate about the overall business than I am the sales, specifically.

Sure.

So that's where my study goes into.

Yeah.

Business.

Have you seen anyone go from terrible to awesome? Yeah, like. Like, really terrible. Couldn't sell anything to killing it.

Yeah. Yeah, I have.

What.

What did that journey look like for.

Them is probably quicker than you think it would be. Again, it was just the guys who were like, they. They just had no clue.

Right.

You know, they just had never done it before, and they were just a bit awkward. And then it's like, you know, they found their feet a little bit with any PQ because they got a structure and it was new. Like, one of the guys who's a testimonial. I mean, I won't say his name, but, you know, when he came to us, he was in a lot of debt.

Okay.

Right. And he piled on inner circle with a lot more debt. And literally, he told me he goes, the chat he had that him and his wife had was like, well, what's more debt if we go bankrupt? Anyway, that was the chat they had.

Wow.

Right? They were like 60 or $70,000 in credit card debt. And literally his wife was on the call, and they Were like, well, it, I mean, what's the worst that could happen? We just got extra bankrupt, you know, and then, you know, so that guy was a sales rep for, you know, a while before that. Obviously not doing well at all. And then I think it was like seven months later, he was making $55,000 a month.

Oh, shit.

It's just good money.

Yeah.

Very, very good money, no matter what way you look at it. And his life has totally changed and he was not good. Like he was a punish right to train. It was like, fuck, man. But he, like, he stuck to it and he learned. Like, he took it seriously. And now he's actually gonna be one of our coaches.

Yeah, right.

Like he's gonna do two sessions a week for like the industry that he's in, in insurance.

Okay.

He's going to do industry specific training because he's taken it and sort of really, really run with it now. He's really good. He's got a team of 30 people underneath him.

Wow.

Yeah.

Okay. So but that he probably goes into the category of like passionate. Yeah, probably through necessity, I would say, but put in the work and really went on that trajectory.

Absolutely.

Have you seen anyone that just can't get better? Yeah. So like, tell us a story about a person who just in spite of their best efforts, your best efforts, just is not getting it.

Yeah. I mean, I've had the chat with a few people where I've said, I just don't think you should be in sales. And like, maybe that's a fire. They need to. But some of them, I just go like, you know, I remember we signed up this one person to like any PQ 2.0 and they did 3.0. They did like closing code and they like bought one on one with me. Right. And they'd been in training for like seven months or eight months. And I did my first one on one session. At the end I said, I need to refund. You said, why? I was like, because if you're, if your understanding is where you're at right now after all the training you've done, I was like, this just isn't for you. I was like, you're. Because she was really good at a bunch of things, but sales wasn't one of them and she had it.

And why?

What? What?

I don't know. It was just like, usually I can tell when someone doesn't have it when I don't understand what they're doing.

Okay.

So if they're, if they're like, if they have a sort of script in front of them. They've been taught, this is how you do it. This is the. This is the order in which we do things, and this is why we do it. And we've practiced it. And then the questions, like, are so bizarre that you're like. Like, what was the point of that? Or, like, if they constantly ask questions that they haven't. That it's like, there's a reward ratio to every question that you ask.

Yeah.

You know, and so if the reward ratio is terrible and they just keep asking these questions that can just go, like, it's a 70% chance of it being horrendous and a 30% chance of it being a home run and nothing in between. And you just constantly keep asking those questions, and you're not able to kind of see the patterns of what you're doing. It's very hard to train someone.

Expand on that for me. What do you mean reward ratio? Like, have an idea of what you mean, but I want to. Like, you mean the risk of asking a question, Them giving an answer. You don't. That. That's unhelpful to you or just wasting time?

Oh, no. Never ask a question that I don't know the answer to.

Okay, so that's what you mean by the reward ratio.

Yeah. So a lot of the time, like, when I'm coaching someone and, like, we're doing a core review and they'll ask a question, I'll go, what was the outcome you were looking for? And they're like, and if they can't answer it? And I'm like, well, why'd you ask it then?

Okay.

Are you just filling time?

Yeah.

Like, what's going on here? Because every question that you ask could go well, it could go neutral or it could go badly. So I will only ask questions that will go well or neutral, Unless I'm getting towards the end of a call, and it's like, Hail Mary time. And then I'll start throwing out questions that will either go really well or really bad.

Yeah, okay. Some, like, polarization.

Yeah, exactly. So it's every single question. What I did to kind of. I don't know if anyone's ever explained it that way, but that's how I thought of it. So how I got my calls to be so short. Short was because I would listen to my calls and I'd have my script up. Like, I would get the transcripts done for that call, and I would have it there next to, like, my actual script. And I was like, oh, okay. I said that I didn't need to. That's off script. It also didn't do anything. And then I would go, don't need that. Don't need that. Or I'd listen to a sentence and I go, well, I don't need those seven words. Like, those are just filler words. So I'll get rid of those seven words next time. And then if I would ask a question, I can't really. It's very hard to give an example of a question that would have, like, random answers. But, you know, I'd ask a question, I'd be like, well, that wasn't on script. Oh, that was a really good answer. That doesn't mean I'll ask it again. So what? I'll sit there and I'll take that question and I'll go, that was the answer. And I'll go, what are all the answers that somebody would logically give, though?

Okay.

And then I'll sort of think through, like, I'll role play in my head. And I'd be like, like, certain types of personalities could answer that this way. Like, that's too hard for me to decipher in real time. That question just doesn't have a risk reward. I won't do it.

Yeah.

But if I ask a question, I'm like, man, like, nine out of ten of these answers are really good. And even the tenth one isn't that bad.

Yeah, fuck it.

That becomes a question, let's try it out.

That goes in.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's just about being able to analyze that. And that's why, like, I don't like role plays unless they're with a coach. Because, you know, somebody posted in the sales Revolution today, hey, I'm new to this. Who wants to practice with me? I was like, ah, don't do it. You just end up becoming even more shitty together. But, like, the good thing is reviewing your own cause is so good because you know the thought process and you can analyze your own thought.

Yeah.

Whereas, like, you listening to one of my calls, it's like, just about words. Yeah, that's. I'm there. You're just gonna mimic. Yeah, like, that's not really helpful.

Yeah.

Like being able to ask, well, why did you say that? Why did you think that?

What's the effect you were going for?

Yeah, that's the really important thing. And that's how you can decide if someone's good when I can go, what is the outcome that you were trying to get? And if they can go this for this reason, perfect. Even if it's wrong. It's an active decision. So it's like, oh, okay, well, let's tweak that. Let's maybe change the wording. And it's like, I understand where you were going, but that execution of that was poor.

Okay.

You know, but you, as long as you're making decisions the whole way. Whereas a lot of people, that. They can't justify the question. They can't, like, if they were in front of a jury, be like, why did you ask that? They'd be like, oh, yeah, okay.

So it sounds like, you know, to distill it down. Successful salespeople are always asking every question and doing everything they say on a call is with intention. It's. And it's foreign ends. It's not like to fill space. They're never trying to fill a conversation. They're never just saying something for the sake of it. It has a point. And they're every. Every time they say anything, ask a question, give a fact, whatever, there's a decision point that's going to go left or right. And they've got. They know which way they. Either way it's going to go. I'm prepared for what's going to happen.

Yeah, that's the big one. You're prepared for all the eventualities. Whereas sometimes people ask questions and I'm like, where did you hope that was going?

Yeah.

A classic example is when, let's say you're selling marketing services and then you ask them the sales skills, what good is it? What good is it? What could that possibly do? And vice versa. It's like you're selling sales training and you're like, so what kind of quality of lead you're getting through?

Doesn't matter.

Well, like, it's a terrible question.

Yeah.

Because it doesn't benefit you. No matter what they say, leads are amazing. Oh, fuck. That's gonna be a nice little objection at the end. The leads are terrible. Fuck. That's gonna be an objection at the end, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let's just. Let's just not even ask that question.

So the last thing I want to ask you about is you just said, you know, maybe if you're looking to a Hail Mary at the end. And I know, you know, you're always about process and everything is, you know, stick to the process. If you don't get the sale, then. But you stuck to the process. You did a good job. Break the rules. Tell us. Because I know there has to be one where, like, you've pulled the goalie And. And just decided it.

It.

We'll see what happens.

Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go for it. So actually, before you do. So there's a really good. There's a Malcolm Gladwell podcast called Revisionist History. And obviously. Yes. Have you heard the one? Pull the goalie. There's a formula that they use in ice hockey on, like, if you're down by so many points at whatever. Like, at what point do you put your goalie in the game and make him like, go on the attack? Because who cares? We're already down. If they score against us, you can't lose. Losing is losing.

It doesn't lose. How much.

Yeah, yeah, right.

And the formula is shocking at how early you should pull the goalie.

Right.

Like, it is. It is shocking. And then they're. The whole thing goes on to it then gets into more personal stuff and it sort of explains like, yeah, the people who are like held hostage in their house. Like, if you get the chance to escape, you should. And leave your kids and everything behind because if you could do anything about it, you would have. So you're no help to stay there. If there's an opportunity for you to escape, you should. Because. Yeah. And it's like, it's really confronting and they have all the maths on it. They show all the stats of like home invasions and shit like that. And it's like, if there's any chance for you to escape, you should leave your kids behind and get out. Because if you could help, you would have. And at that point you're just there as well.

Right. Terrible.

But interesting when they say pull the goalie, that it's way earlier than you would think.

Yeah.

Tell us about a time that you have gone this script.

I've done it super early in the piece.

Yeah.

And been successful.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, when you come up against certain personality types, like, very, very dominant. Really, really don't. It's very, very dominant, kind of alpha male type personality types. And they just will not. They will not like, allow you to do your process. And so from then, like, I usually smack around and I'll.

For them.

Well, the first thing I do is I try and logic them.

Okay.

So let's just say I'm like, hey, man. And you're like, hey, yeah, dad, dude, I totally get it. You have a process. I understand. Like, but like, what's the price here? And then I'll respond with like, well, I don't really know much about you at this stage. If it's okay with You. I'll just kind of find out more about you and what you do to see if what we could do would work. And then I'm happy to go through any options that we may have at the end because there are numerous. And I need to know more about you. And if they go, not, come on, dude, I just need another price. And I'll go, well, what do you do for a living? And you go, I'm a dog trainer. I go, sweet. How much fix my dog?

Thousand bucks.

All right, sweet. Because I've got a mally that bit seven babies faces, and it's. I need it to be on show in four days. You'd be like, oh, it's like, thousand bucks. Sign the deal, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And they go, I know, but seriously, I'd be like, well, hey, man. Like, I have a process that I have to go through to know that I can help. I'm not going to fucking present something that I don't know will help. So we can either go through the process or we cannot, but either way, like, I have to get this information a lot of 99. Nine times out of 100. But I've had people who have gone like. And I was like, okay, man. I can see from. You're a man of action, and judging by what you've said, I assume that, like, money is not an issue for you. Yeah, that's right. Because a lot of them will say money. Okay, I go, sweet. It's 25,000 bucks.

Yep.

And you let him sit on that?

Yeah, yeah.

And just sit there for a while.

Yeah.

And I go, and if you want to fight me on it, we can do that too.

Okay.

Yeah. And then I'll just. I'll just. Logic traps are the most. The most you can bring them in at any stage, you know, and so, like, a lot of the time it'll go like, okay. And so a logic trap, you can bring in any stage. So let's just say somebody isn't happy with their current outcome because they wouldn't be on the phone with you if they were. So you have to establish. Is that there. There is a gap, right? So if it's that early in the conversation, I'll be like, okay, so where are you at? And where do you want to go? Like, those are the. That's the only thing I need to know. They go, I'm at this. I want to get to this. And I go, is that the real goal? Or is that the goal that you tell yourself to make yourself feel good, that you're close to it. Like, what's the actual. And they go, this. And I go, okay, cool. How long are you trying to get there? All right, sweet, man. It's 25 grand this, and we're going to fix it up for you. So then from there I have a gap and if they fight me on it and I'm like, all right, cool, man. Well, do you feel like, I guess, your experiences and what you've done, the totality of that as a person, do you feel like that affects how you make decisions?

Yes.

Yes. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. And you know, are you 100% happy with where you're at right now?

No.

That's why we're on the call.

Okay, so on a scale of one to ten, super cheesy question. One being that you're very, very unhappy, and ten being that you're at your goal. 100. Where are you at in that spectrum? Don't say seven.

Do you say that. You say. Don't say seven.

Yeah, don't say seven.

Five.

Five. Why a five? Why not? Why like, like, why not a. Like, why not a three?

Well, we are going in. We are making progress. It's not at the speed I'd like to.

Okay, okay. So, and so how long have you spent, I guess, trying to get there?

My whole life.

And I will kill myself if I don't make it. You'd be like, okay, so that decision making process that you're using.

Yeah.

In order to get to your goal, that's led you to be a 5 out of 10. How much longer do you want to allow that decision making process to affect your life and your results moving forward?

Yeah.

Okay, so that's how you lock them up. You've got them like that.

Yeah, yeah.

And then from there they go and they can like, they can deny or like if someone gives me a five or six or a seven or eight or whatever, but they're way off and just go, well, dude, like, I'm not the best math wizard on the planet. However, I know that you're here, you want to get here, and in the middle of that is this, and you're down here. So where are we actually at? Because, like, if you're going to give me the bullshit ego answers, I can't really help.

Okay. But so even when you go off script, you're onto a new script.

Yeah. Right.

So it's just my later on script.

Yeah, it's that.

Yeah.

You're like, oh, short circuit, all of this. Meet you down here, bring this back up to the Top.

Yeah. Because then I can go from there. I can go, I can loop back around at the beginning of the script and take them down.

Yeah.

Okay, so. Because if they go, well, yeah. And I really, I can go, well, just so I can understand the rationale, man, why not just keep doing what you're doing? Right. So then I'm back up to the problem. We're in a stage and I can kind of really quickly ran them through the rest of the script. So that's why it helps to have all your objection handling scripted out so you know exactly what you're doing. You can kind of fuck around with people a little bit. But there, there are a bunch of like different. It's just logic. Trapping people is like, well, you've said this. This is the established truth. This is what's happening. Where are we going from here?

Yeah.

So it's just trapping people like that. But you got to be really careful how you ask that because like, I didn't say mindset, you know, I would say, do you feel that the totality of your experiences affects your decision making.

So you're actively avoiding that mindset word?

Yeah, for some people I'll lean into it. But for most people, like, I won't say it because, like, it's a little bit transparent.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah.

People have heard it a million times and it just probably caused a lot of resistance.

Right.

Yeah. And that 1 to 10 question is very on purpose because if I didn't do that and I asked the next question, it's too transparent. So do you feel like, let's just say your mindset affects your decision making process. Yes. And are you 100 happy with your at right now? Right. It's a, it's very like, oh, I see what's happening here.

Yeah.

The logic. Whereas if I go, okay, in scale of 1 to 10, where are you at? And then I ask a couple questions about it, then when I ask the next question, it's, you know, it's a lot easier.

Okay. So a natural salesperson is going to be kind of doing that. But like in training and learning it, you just have like, it seems to me like you have 103 minute bits that, that you have them all in the Rolodex and someone says something, oh, that's the one. And you pull it out and you deliver it.

Yeah.

And the purpose of all the scripting is because you're only having that conversation with that person one time. Exactly.

That's the trick.

Yeah. So you are like, in reality, you're having the same conversation over and over.

You're good. Yeah, yeah, that's it.

But it's new to that person. So you just nail that, get that fucking locked in and be able to bring in the different variables from the different.

They just need your little deflections and get people back on track.

Yeah.

So you have your script, you know it works. If you do it, you'll win X percentage of the time. And then it's like somebody asks you a weird question, you just, just get them, you just add them back on track. That's all you got to do.

Yeah.

And that the, the more on track you can be. And I think having really specific questioning is, is really good. So like one of the questions is like, so you'll do a rationale question which is like, just so I can see the rationale, whatever. And then from there you go into like a little gap building. So then you'll be like, okay, so where are you at now? Where do you want to be? Okay, perfect. Then your next question is, you started talking to me, were you out there looking for ways to X? Now people say that very generically, like, okay, so before you started talking to me, were you out there looking for ways to improve your sales process or what have you been doing? Whereas what I would ask is I would incorporate the exact gap of what they're here for. Okay, so be like, okay, so and before, before you started talking to me right there, looking for ways to kind of increase your close rate from 10 to 30% so you could get to that 40k a month or like what have you been doing? It's very specific. And so like that, that, that time I've now like that I've very much narrowed the conversation. And then I'll do it again. So then when I get down to the lower end, solution awareness, I go, okay, so you mentioned you wanted to make more money. I think it was getting up to like 40 grand a month. Is that the ideal outcome or are you looking to make more? And they go, okay, no, I'm looking to make like, you know, 500k a year. You go, okay, cool. And let's just say we are able to help you get to 500k a year. What would you do with that type of money coming in? So I'm just narrowing it, narrowing and narrowing and narrowing it. And then when I get my emotional outcome from earning 500k, then my next question is like, okay, and with what and the exact skill sets and processes that you have in place now in your sales, how Close are you to be able to make 500k so you can XYZ.

And that's the rug pull.

That's. No, the rug pulls the next one. That's like the emotional.

Okay. You step them down.

That's like the awning.

Okay.

You know, before the person hits. Because if you just drop them straight down, they go into denial.

Right.

They wouldn't believe that could happen to them.

No, that, that's, that's the big. Actually, that's the biggest change I've ever made in any pq.

Right.

Was because that question. That, that and with what you have in place now in Jeremy's scripts is much higher.

Right.

But because I sell coaching, which is like a highly emotional sale, what was happening was that everyone was going, well, no, I would never let that happen.

Right.

So I was like, man, if everyone's doing that, surely I can fix it.

Yeah.

So what I would do is I would then get this big emotion. Then I would go, and what you have like basically taking back to reality what you have now, how close you're being to do that. And then if they fought me on it, I could just do the whole like, well, dude, math is a thing and like, you're a fair way off it. So like, no, no ego, no nothing. How close are you to me actually be able to do that? They go, I'm not close. I'll be like, well, why do you feel that way? Well, this, this and this. Okay, what happens if nothing changes? You don't learn those skills. You keep XYZ over the next two days, two weeks, two months, two years. Like, what happens then? Like, so they've already kind of accepted.

Yeah.

So now it's just the next level. Whereas if you just smack them down, they just go, no, it's not going to happen.

The way you explain all that, I'll bet that one of the reasons people suck at sales is they don't listen.

Right.

Like, because this, you are mirroring back so much of the information that people are giving to you. And I bet that a lot of the people that suck aren't hearing this stuff. Right.

Take notes. I don't know why. Yeah, it's crazy. Just listen.

Yeah, just like engage in the conversation.

Yeah. Because you can have a 20 minute conversation and you can recall things that you're doing. Whereas if you're, if you're trying to like write notes in your CRM and like, it's like, what are you taking notes for? Like, what are those notes?

Like, you might write down some figures as you Go right, so that you refer back to those. Exactly.

Yeah, but even. So even, like mental math is if you can do quick math, that's even inaccurate. It doesn't matter.

Yeah, right.

Like you just. If you spit out quick numbers, like, they just go. That sound right. And they go, yeah, yeah.

My old accountant said to me, pat, never do maths in public. He was adding up like real basic shit.

And I was like, you're an accountant.

Surely you could do this in your head. He goes, mate, never do math in public.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, like, I'll do really quick math to people. And I go, so that's that. And they go, yeah, yeah, yeah. I assume I just need to tweak little numbers here and there.

Yeah, right.

It's like that magic trick where the guy gets you to do like a 2 digit number plus a 4 digit number plus an 8 digit number times this divided by this and it has a number that's just a calculator app that always spits out a number.

Yeah, right.

And you can dictate what number it is. So if you flash someone's credit card, you can do like the last eight digits of their credit card. Just remember that. Put that in.

Yeah.

And then you, like, you have that as the app. And then you go, do this and they do this and you go and pull out your credit card and they go, oh, my God. Like that. It's like, no one can do that math. Like, unless you got skates in there.

Yeah, that's wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

All right, cool. Well, it feels like the right place to leave it. Can you be a natural at sales? You can be. You're probably not. You should probably get coaching.

I just give up.

Or even if you are good. Yeah. Better.

You'll never be great without. Without help.

Yeah.

Okay.

You got to study it.

All right.

I'm sure you can be a gifted surgeon, but I don't want a gifted surgeon that's never done the study operating on me.

Fair enough.

Yeah.

All right, that's it for another episode of Coffees for Closers. If you like this stuff, let us know. Hit us with the comments down below. Otherwise, see you next week.

Bye. Put that coffee down, Sam.