Joining the Top One Percent
Matt, Pat, and Jeremy discuss what separates top 1% sales professionals from the rest. They cover sales psychology, emotional intelligence, and why process matters more than outcome, drawing on military experience and personal stories.
Hey, guys, what's up? Matt here. This is part two of our interview style podcast with Pat.
Yes.
If you don't, if you haven't seen part one, we'll link it somewhere up here. If you're on YouTube, if you're listening to this as an audio only, congratulations, Go find it, whatever podcasting is in the podcast. Right. Just go the one back from this. So what we're going to be doing is we're going to be extending the previous podcast all about kind of how to become a sales professional and the differences between good salespeople, bad sal people, and entrepreneurs, et cetera, et cetera. So if you like this kind of content, make sure you stay, like, subscribe, all that kind of good stuff. And we'll see you after the intro. If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. I'm going to repeat that. You will make a million dollars within three years of the first episode you listen to. We don't want hikers. We're not here to save the manatees. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review. Put that coffee down. All right, where do we leave off?
So in the last episode, which for us was 10 minutes ago.
Break the veil. I'm wearing a different shirt.
We established, we talked a lot about sales training and the many and various ways people can do it and the effectiveness of different parts. We certainly established Jeremy as the expert. And that's why. Not because he's your business partner and not because you sell his product, but because the reason he is your business partner and the reason you sell his product is because you feel wholeheartedly that it is the best system.
Absolutely.
And we talked a lot about how. What it takes to become the 1% of sales, the. The sales professionals, the many and various sort of ingredients that go into that specifically, you know, we put you into that category and the formula has been a lot of reps, a lot of hard work, a lot of targeted and detailed education to going along with it, a base in ethics and a mindset to sell and grow. Not just like as an individual, but the businesses you sell for.
Yeah, agree with that.
Remind you to rent. Hire you to do my eulogy.
I'll be there. I presume I would.
You'd be there. I'm not going to die before you. With my high level of common advances.
In modern scientists, I'm surprised I'm alive every day.
You know, I had someone come to me, like, he's like. And they go, there's nothing worse than getting old. I said, you could have died young. There's plenty. He was like, that's such a good, like reframe. They go, it's pretty tricky.
There's.
You could be dead.
Yeah.
So we, we put a flag in a few things last time. What I want to sort of explore with you is at what point did you think that you really understood any pq? Like, and, and was there a moment? So like, for me, in my space and what I teach, there was a moment where I almost had like an out of body experience and was like, oh, I get it, right? I've been pretending to get it, but now I get it.
Doing a great job of pretending.
Yeah, yeah, tell us about it.
So I think there was a moment and then I had a moment where I was validated.
Okay.
That, that was the case, I think definitely the first time that I got a really big commission check. You know what I mean? Like, like I was making more money than the business owner, CEO, cfo, everyone combined, you know, And I was like, okay, I'm doing something right. But I think the moment that I truly got it, I sort of realized. And again, in that kind of outer body, like it's. People call that flow state, whatever it is you want to call it, where it's like I was in a call and I was like, I know everything that can and will happen. And I was like, I cannot be surprised. And then no matter what was said, I was like, everything just went ones and twos. It was just matrix, right? And I was like, ah. That's when I started, like on, I could plugged in, like, I have a young, young mentor, a young mentee of mine named Yash. Great kid. I listened to his call today and I was like, oh, you've plugged in. You've plugged in hard. He knew every angle, diffused everything before it even came. How it could explain his thought process in depth as to why he did everything he did. And I was like, oh, we're done. Congratulations, we're done.
Right?
So I definitely had that on a call. I can't remember the call specifically, but I remember finishing that call and going like, oh, I get it. I know this now. And then about a week or two later, I remember asking Jeremy a series of questions and he just said, yep, that's exactly why. And he didn't say anything. And I was like, what? And he was like, you're the only one to ever ask those questions.
I've heard you say that a few times.
Yeah.
Can you elaborate on what those questions, would it make any sense to us?
Oh, yeah, yeah, they were. It was to do with using tonality to enhance social conditioning.
Okay, Right.
So in Western society, we are conditioned to do things in particular ways from a very, very young age. Like, I remember seeing Jordan Peterson. They're like, if you really want to freak people out, sit the other way in a. In a. In like a cinema. Like, just sit the other way. Don't do anything, don't say anything. Just sit the other way. And people will freak out.
Right?
So we're like, human beings are inherently predict in certain cultural subsects. Like, I could go, if I went to China, I wouldn't. Yeah, I couldn't read. I couldn't read the play.
Right.
Which is also why there's, like, a genuine. A little bit of distrust between cultures. It's like, because I can't predict your behavior. It's just human beings, right? So I remember asking, when I'm going, like, hey, man, like, are we. So, like, on these questions, I was like, the pausing here, here, and here. I just want to make sure that I'm right because this will sort of, you know, there's a downflow here. This is to, like, condition them to answer this question in a very particular way. And if I change the pausing and I change the placing and the pacing of it, I can condition them to answer it in a different way. So, like, a really practical example is like, so, Pat, why is that important to you now, though?
Right?
Or I go, well, Pat, why is that important to you now, though? You have to answer those questions in the way that I want you to. Whereas if I go, well, Pat, why is that important to you now, though? There's no cue there for you. So therefore, I cannot predict how you will respond, which means that I then have two options. So I have to have a plan for both. And depending on the context of the previous conversation, one may benefit me and one may not. So I need to be able to pick that in real time, judging from the behavioral patterns and the language patterns of the individual, as to what benefits me, the that or the now. So talking about the tangible or talking about the timeframe. So, like, if someone has gone to me and they're always like, they have never done anything, they're in research mode. You know, I've just been researching, right. I will emphasize the now because I need to start creating some urgency in that individual, whereas that's not an issue because that there's also an inherent risk when you start talking about Timeframes that it can get squirrely. So. But it's a calculated risk that I'm willing to take if the series of things presents itself. So my default would be to do the that. Because, like, what I'm previously talking about before that question is a tangible item and I want to know the importance of it. So when I was asking about that, he's like, yeah, that's exactly why we're doing it and how we're doing it. And he goes, you're the only person ever figured that out. And that. And like literally, like a day later, he asked me to be a sales guy.
Right. Okay.
So I was like. So you could tell. He was like, ah, Like, I found someone who's figured it out.
So all of this, this story about Jeremy, how he became who he is and you as well, is really a vehicle to talk about the. What makes someone the 1% of sales.
Yeah.
What you just described sounds tricky. So, like, how important is intelligence in that space? Right.
Like, well, how important is in any space?
Yeah, well, I mean, there's plenty of people, you know, dunning Kruger is a powerful thing.
Right.
So there's plenty of people who are legitimate morons that are incredibly successful at what they do because they just like hard and fast at it and refuse to accept that there's another way. And with the confidence they exude through them more on ship, they. They do well. But what you're saying there, that not only requires like a high level of, you know, like mental capacity, able to think on your feet, but like emotional intelligence to read the person you're selling.
Yeah.
Right. And understand, if not empathize with the emotions that they have.
Right.
At the minimum, understand them. If not, emphasize with them.
Yeah.
How important is that? And have you ever seen someone who had all the other ingredients to be good at sales, but that was the gateway they couldn't go through?
Yes.
Yeah, it's right. Intelligence.
Listen, I think sales is a very academic pursuit.
Okay.
Like, it is very. Because it is like it's, it is real time brain surgery in some retrospect. Like, because you have to, you have to. In order to understand why. You have to know fundamentally why sales is difficult. Because if somebody made good decisions around that part of their life, they probably wouldn't need to be sold into it.
Yep.
So, like, if I take the easiest one is weight loss. If I take someone who has been overweight for 35 years and they go, you know what, Pat, this sounds incredible. And I know I need this. I just need to. I Just need a day to think about it. All they're going to think about is eating more donuts.
Right.
So delicious donuts.
Delicious.
Right.
And so I can't accept that answer because every single fiber of their being is causing them to make the wrong decision.
Right.
So of course they're going to do that. So if. I know that fundamentally, like if you're broke, hate to break it to you, you probably make bad decisions around money right now. Not to say that there's not a ladder and everybody starts on different rungs. Like, I come from a relatively privileged background. I started somewhat high up the rung, so therefore I can probably get a little bit higher. But you can definitely climb the ladder. Right, so.
And you mean long term broke as well? Not just like this week. I don't have a lot of cash going on.
Yeah, exactly. Like if you just fundamentally make poor decisions around money, then you're not going to have much money if you make great decisions around money, even if you don't earn a lot. I once met a lady because she did the baby shooting. She did that. She shot. She did all the photography. Yeah, she shot babies. It was a weird thing. But anyway, I sort of. Yeah, so she did the photography for Jack and she was in this stunning mansion in North Bondi. Probably worth at that time, I don't know, like 8, 9 million bucks. Probably worth 35 now market. But never made more than $55,000 a year.
Wow.
Ever.
Right.
But she's very frugal and she had two kids and she ran away from her abusive husband when she was very young and had the young kids and she just had really modest jobs and she bought a place, sold a place, bought a place, sold a place, bought a place, sold a place.
Right.
And every time, and she would like the first place, she just saved and saved and saved and then she bought the house, cash. Now listen, is that doable these days? Not necessarily, but like, it's like she never made a lot of money, yet she had an $8 million house that she paid in cash.
Yeah, right.
And like that. That to me is proof that like those kind of things are possible. And, and so.
Well, let's just tease that out a little bit because we're talking about like wealth as a mindset.
Right?
So like, I think sometimes even people that you could give them all the money in the world and they'll be.
Most people who win lottery are broke.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Right. So. Because they make bad decisions.
Yeah.
So overweight people make bad decisions for the most part, around Food and exercise. I'm one of those people. I make terrible decisions.
Tell me about it.
Like, I then make really good decisions for a very short period of time and then continue to make bad decisions over a longer period. But I know that about myself, and I don't hide it.
Yeah, right.
You know, and, like, so, like, I have to fundamentally, like, sort of figure that out. And so that, to me, makes sales much simpler because, like, I'm fighting for the person. Like, I. I need to be their cheerleader. They're, like, their champion. Because, like, what used to really frustrate me when I was selling fitness, especially when I had a gym, was that I would get somebody in who was very unhappy, very overweight, and they would go, man, this is everything. And I'm like, yeah, awesome. They'd be like, hey, listen, I just need 24 hours. And I would just go, okay, that's fine. And then I would see them six months later, and they were 10 kilos heavier, even more unhappy on their way to die earlier. You know, if you're overweight, you're more likely to die of everything, including terrorist attackers. You're a larger target. It's a sad truth, right? It's true.
Right.
And so, like, that was really, like, when I first got out of the military, I was, like, visibly angry at the person because I did not understand that mindset. I was like, but there's a problem, and there's a solution. You should basically crawl over broken glass to get there, because that's how we got to do what we did. I was like, no, no. Must do this. Must do this. I was telling Marco the other day, because he's traveling and working, and I was like, yeah, dude. Like, when I was in that mode, I did not have a partner for five years. Didn't even think about it. Wouldn't have considered it.
Yeah.
You're in a different situation because you met Jane so young. Yeah, but, like.
But we weren't together. Especially when. When I first joined the army and during selection, like, it's. It's one of those really interesting things. I think about this quite a lot. There's. Even if you put me into whatever body you want instead of this busted old piece.
Right.
You can put me into anybody want. There's no way I could pass election. No way. In God's green today.
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
No, no. I don't have the right mindset. I have a different mindset that's still, like, functional. I still like myself.
Yeah, but probably like yourself more. Like, people don't Pass selection because they're running toward the result. People pass election because they're running away from the failure.
Yeah.
And whatever that means. Like, when I was growing up, like, I remember having a distinct moment when I was 18 years old, and I was like, oh, no, I think I'm a. Yeah. Like, because I had a really good upbringing, great parents, which is very rare in the special. Me and you and Mooney are, like, very rare people in special operations that. We had great upbringings.
Yeah. Right.
Most of them are tragic.
Yeah. Yeah.
Carefully nurtured individuals are very rare to find.
Yeah.
It's usually like. Like, just turned out that you're a diamond. And we know that because we smashed you as many times as we could without you just wouldn't.
Some of the stories are just terrible. But, like, I was like, man, I am. I think I am. Like, I've never done anything hard, you know, if the hardest thing you've ever done is a deadlift, like, you have had a pretty privileged life.
Yeah.
You know, Remember that deadlift, bro. Yeah. I actually remember having. Anyway, I had a. There's a personal trainer at a gym that I was working at years ago who had a program on how to be Alpha, and he tried to get me into it. I was very recently out of the military, and I was like, you listen here. The hardest thing you've ever done in life is a deadlift. Do not toy house. It wasn't about. I wasn't a good dude then. But.
But. So.
But on selection, I. And the Rio, Right. Like, so it's, you know, 12 months or more of being on courses, not really seeing anyone, and it's very, very difficult. Greatest time of my life. I had nowhere else to be. I was hanging out with my friends. I couldn't imagine, like, if. If something had happened to me and I got injured, I would have been like, can I still go? Like, I know I. On the course, but, like, I have nowhere else.
Yeah, you have to be that, though.
Yeah.
That's why, like, I do not. Like, and I went. When we went overseas, like, I was single. I didn't have kids. I do not understand how those humans function.
Yeah. Yeah.
They have a different level of dissociative personality that I just don't have.
Yeah.
And I thought I had a pretty dissociative personality when I was younger, but nothing compared to the dudes with three kids.
Yeah.
Like, that's crazy.
I was in a Blackhawk on my way to Timor from Darwin's, like, standby war story, special recovery operation. But Was in the Blackhawk at short notice, was eating.
I remember you guys left like, hey, where'd everyone go? Like, oh, they're on a Blackhawk.
Yeah.
So we got killed in the un. We have to go and recover it, right?
Yeah.
And that's not how it went. There's a different story. But I remember thinking that Blackhawk. I was like, I cannot have kids while I'm in the Army. Because I was, I was sitting there, I was the ASO sitting in the seat looking around at 18 of us packed into this Black Hawk on a one way trip. There's not enough fuel to come back.
There's barely enough fuel to get there.
Barely. And so we're headed there and I, I've not told anyone I'm going and they're going to see it on the news and I have no idea when I'm coming home. And I sat in that chopper and made the decision because I looked at the guys in the chopper, I was like, these guys have like, that guy has kids. That guy has kids. You know, where's that? Oh, no, yeah, we don't know. And I was like, oh, I can't do that. Empower to people that do. Like, it's not like it's, it's, it's wrong.
Yeah.
But it's, I couldn't do that.
I made, I made the same call when I was in Afghanistan in 2008 and one of the guys was on the sat phone to his wife giving birth to his second kid. And I was like, I was like, I. Nothing against that human. I was like, I can't be that guy.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Because my dad was like away a lot when I was a kid and I was like, like, I didn't, like, we had a great life, but like, I didn't know that there was, like, I didn't know there was an option.
Yeah.
You know what I mean? I would have much preferred to have dad around when I was like, much more. You know what I mean? But yeah. So I think like comes back to. I fundamentally realized that people do not make good decisions around that part of their life. And that. And then being able to then remove my anger of that. And I had a question today in sales training. How do you not get frustrated people? And I was like, how dare I get frustrated at people? Like, it is such an unfair thing to put on somebody when it's like, what do you mean you're not going to spend 20 grand today, you piece of. Like, I don't. When I spend 45 minutes with them. And, like, we've established it's probably the right move for them in terms of, like, getting them to where they want to go. But I do not have the context of their life.
Yeah.
And, like, it would be enormously egotistical of me to be like, hey, listen, man, I know you're 35 years old, but I've known you for what, 30, 45 minutes now, and let's be straight. And I know. I know what's best for you. Right.
Like, I have all the nuance.
Yeah.
I know everything. Right. And so, like, listen, does that mean that I don't overcome objections? No, because I know that people don't make the best decisions straight away.
Right.
But that goes both ways in saying that just because they buy doesn't mean it was the right decision. So that's why I need to take them through a process where we can figure out together that is mutually the right decision. Because I don't want to client either. If someone signed up to 10 courses and they go, no, other courses are. I will stop the sales call right there and go, hey, man, like, when you sign up to those courses where people. Did they have testimonials? They go, yes. I go, so when you signed up, there were other people. People were getting results. I go, okay, there was 10 courses. There's one common denominator. I'll go, so I do not want to be the next line. I do not want to be the 11th. That didn't work, because it would.
Yeah.
So that's what I think is super interesting. Because, you know, not that I'm plugged into the space especially well, but what I see from you that I don't see from others is that ethics piece. And it. Well, not. Not from others here, but, like, in the bigger picture of sales and it, you know, we all have the avatar in our mind of the sleazy sales guy that, you know, doesn't give, just wants the money. And despite the fact that that is just who you are, the actual throughput result is much better performance.
Right.
Which is counterintuitive very often. Like, I think sometimes people get in their head that, like, no, the every seller have to close 100%. Yeah, blah, blah, blah. But that actually is. You're cutting yourself off at the knees by doing that for later on.
I actually completely removed the outcome from my success metric. Very easy to say when you're making good money, by the way.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Like, so I will. I will caveat that.
Right.
But my goal didn't become to Sell everybody. Because that's physically impossible. Like, I could do everything perfectly. And still, even if it's 99 times out of a hundred, I make the sale, which would be phenomenal. Still one. You know what I mean? So I should never be shocked at the one occurrence, but all I wanted to do was finish every call. And I've never heard anyone else say this. And I try and tell the guys a lot because people put a lot of pressure on themselves to perform, and because of the position I'm in, where I'm the head of this company, they want to impress me. And I go, I'm not impressed by you doing really well. And I'm not angry when you don't. Like, I just want you to get off every call and go, that was a good call. I did my best. I followed my process. What is ridiculous is when you don't follow your process because you think that that person falls outside of, like, some. No, no, they're special. Like, no, they're not. They're just. They're the same human being. No, my dog is special. No, they're not. Like, we're all just humans. What happens if they have money? I go, I have money. Do you talk to me differently? Well, no, it's like, okay, do they have more than me? Like, you know what I mean? That's like, this is stupid. If I'm talking to Jeff Bezos, right? And he wants to, you know, like, let's. Back when he was fat, right, that trainer. But, yeah, man, you're an incredibly successful human, but you suck at this.
Yeah.
You need to do what I say, because I'm better than this at you. So, like, let's explore what's happening, what's not happening. And I could sell Jeff Bezos in the exact same way. I'd probably demand he pay in full.
I think that'd be fair.
Yeah.
Although he would be good for it if it was a payment plan, I'm sure.
Yeah, but.
But, yeah. So it's like being angry at people and thinking that you have context and all that kind of stuff. Like, it just seems weird. And so it's like, as long as I knew that, I followed my process, and this was very difficult for some business owners that I was working with to sort of realize, because they go, like, oh, how'd you go to them? Like, yeah, man. Cool. So, like, six of the 10. What happened with the four I got? They're all great calls. Okay. They're like, why don't you sell them? I was like, well, just wasn't right for them. I got. Some of them are potential sort of long term. Some of them are just not a right fit. Some of them, you know what I mean? Just like wasn't, wasn't the right time for them. Like, oh, what are we going to do better? I was like, nothing, I'm not going to do anything better or worse. Like I'm just going to keep doing my thing. I sold six out of ten. It's fantastic. We should be super happy with that.
Yeah.
Like, and I remember one time I sold like 20 or 17 clients in a week, which is a lot.
Right.
It also completely broke the delivery of the business. Like the onboarding blew out because I'd sold like 10, 10, 12, 17.
Right.
And so it's like they were used to getting four a week. So the onboarding blew out by like four months. And the guy goes to me and he goes, that's the new standard. I was like. I go, no, it's not. And they go, that's a bad mindset. I always see salespeople have really big weeks followed by bad weeks. It's a, it's a mindset thing. I go, are you open to seeing it from a different lens as to why it's not? I go, this is a logistical thing. I go, when you have a lot of people selling a week, your lead volume has not dramatically increased. So and this is where understanding sales like really helps because the more you can understand it, the more you sort of realize the ebbs and flows and how it works so you don't get caught up in bad and good months, bad and good weeks. And I was like, I have had a lot of people, I've had a pipeline where coincidentally lots of people have closed in one week. So it's like the amount of sales that I made from current new calls is the exact same as it always. It's like six. And then I just had a lot of people, the referral and all the follow ups that I've been doing close on one day. Now what that means is I usually close 2 to 3 per week, right. From referral, which brings my 6 to 7 sales per week on average.
Right.
So now for the next three weeks I'll probably only do three to four because I've cashed in the pipeline that usually gets me the extra two to three. So I'll say it's not a mindset thing, it's a pure logistics thing of how pipelines and people fulminate. And I don't now, I don't have that so now I have to spend the next month or two refilling that pipeline to get that back to the extra two to three per week. I was like, do you understand that?
No, it's mindset in my space, we call that reverting to the mean. It's a. It's what happens. Like, it reverts to the average. And we always tell people, like, when you see something spectacular change for the positive, be prepared for the spectacular swing the other way. Because nothing's changing dramatically. We're just very slowly moving the average higher.
Yeah.
And if we get something that exceeds the average dramatically, you can guarantee very quickly you're going to see something that is below the average dramatically, because that's how averages are ascertained.
So, like, and me having a good understanding of how that works, it removes emotion of the good week and the bad week. Because I can look and I can, like, unemotionally using data go, oh, okay, this is what happened. And I can explain that. And it just calms people down. Whereas a lot of sales people, they think that when they sign everybody one week, they're the God king of sales and they can do nothing wrong, then they don't send anybody the next week. And then they're the worst salespeople. But in reality, they went 10 from 10, 0 from 10. Hey, congratulations, man. You hit 50%.
Yeah. Yeah.
It just is what it is.
Yeah.
So, like, for me, it was being so in love with the process that I didn't really care about the outcome as long as I just did what I needed to do, you know, which is the same in, like, sports or anything like that. Like, you can be teeing off on a driving range or teeing off in front of 12,000 people. The act is the same.
Yeah.
If you just follow your process, you will get the same outcome. And you're not the external factors, the external externalities that you can't control. Like, because I can't control, like, if I'm selling you and I do everything perfectly and you go, this just isn't for me. Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Like, I can't stop changing the product.
And it's not your product anyway.
Yeah. I can't stop it. It's like, oh, okay, that's fair. You know what I mean? Or someone's like, yeah, I'm in. I'm like, sweet, perfect. That's good too. And so, like, my goal was to have every single call. And especially as sales snipers started to get up, I. And I. And I've stepped back in now doing A lot of the training. But all my calls are being reviewed by everybody, which is a very advantageous for me to be in because that's the same reason why they had cameras in World War II. There's no cowards in front of a camera. So I knew that I was. My margin for error was very little and I couldn't. If I was going to be observed constantly, then I had to do my process. Because if I was going to tell people to do it, then I had to do it too. And so Marco was pulling every single call that I had, man, out of close. I listen to it 10 times. He was just like beasting it. And then Anthony was doing it and Rhode was doing it and Will was doing it and everyone. And then we would do our daily trainings and we'd review my calls and Michaels, because I was the most successful out of everybody. And so, like, I had to do it. And if I didn't, I would have, like, looked like, okay, and doesn't mean I didn't. Does that mean I sold everybody? No. And I would bring calls like, hey, I didn't sell this guy, but this is a great call. I did everything perfectly. It just didn't happen. Yeah, just fine.
So in regards to that 1% of sales, people being in that top 1%, having a process and sticking to it and not being derailed by. By external factors.
Yeah.
And having methods to identify when someone's trying to derail it and then get them back on track. Like when I used to sell, like business coaching to trades, I would get a lot of guys that would, come on, hey, man, what's going on? You know, yada, yada, yada. And I get halfway through and they go, mate, now what you're doing, what's the price?
Right?
And I go, yeah, man, I'm more than happy to go through all that. This stage might be more appropriate just find out about you, your business, because, like, I don't know if I can help yet. Like, I genuinely don't. I just. I don't know anything about you. So if it's okay with you, I can just ask you a few questions and then I'm more than happy to go through all that. That gets rid of 95% right now, the 5%, they go, Oy, mate, I get it, but how much does it cost? Then I go, hey, man, I don't know. Because we have a couple of different ways of doing it. If you allow me just to ask a few questions, then I can get into it. That gets rid of the other four of the 5%, I have that. And they go, okay, that's fair enough. The 1%, they go, mate, what's the price? I go, what do you do for a living, champ? And he goes, I'm a mechanic. And I go, sweet. How much to fix my car? And he goes, oh, but like, you know what kind of car? And I go, man, I don't have time. How much to fix it? And they go, okay, that's fair enough.
Yeah, right.
And so, like, like, that's straight back on track. A little diversion. Back on track. I know. I know how to deal with those situations because I just know the process that I have to be in and I can handle that easily. I don't mind it. It's just. It's part of the process.
What made you. Like, the business has expanded massively. It's not just sales. Sniper. It's sniper operations. It's sniper media. There's a lot of other going on. You've got your hands in many, many pies. Was it a drive to do that that made you sell less? Or was it that, like, you had trained other people who were more capable of doing the selling, like, you had you, or a combination of the two? Like, did you bring the rest of the staff up to where you were, like, okay, I don't need to do anymore. I can explore further, or was it that I want to explore further, therefore, I'm not going to be doing this anymore.
This is sort of like, I wanted to do more things. I still sell quite a lot, right? Like, I'm selling every. Like every week I'm selling a few people into something, right. But, like, they're just different sales or much more. And I don't have to follow as much of a process because I just have a much more authority and I can just kind of. I still have a process, but it's a little bit different than what I teach.
Yeah, I watch some of the. I watch you sell, I hear other people and what it seems to me. And like, I'm not trying to smoke it, but like, you use different wormholes to other people. Other people are going through the tunnel. And what I notice that you do is you go, I say this and you just jump. Like, I'll bet you you can carry on your thought process over there.
Yeah.
But you're like making your coffee and you're eating it, doing whatever, and then it's like, I'll meet you where I know you're headed. And it's got to intercept people further down the Line.
Yeah, I just. I know what they're thinking, but it's like a lot of that comes from, like, selling the same particular type of person a lot. Because that's what I do now. Like, I sell a very particular type of human. Like, a lot of business owners and stuff like that. And I know how to tweak them.
Yeah.
Like, I'll never forget sitting out there when you were on a call and you muted and you had told me this is what this is about to say, and this is the pro. Like, you projected everything he was about to say, and then it played out exactly as you went. And I was like, that's why I.
Live in Australia, because we're 12 hours ahead. I had the call 12 hours ago. Yeah. But it's like, you know, it's just all pattern recognition, you know, and a lot of that. Like, people go, how can I do that? And I go, so for 13 years full time, that's how you do that. That's not a. Like, one of the most frustrating things that I tell younger people and new people is, hey, road. Time takes time. Don't try to be me. Not that I'm the God king of all things, but I am significantly better than you. But, like, five years ago, I would have loved. I couldn't dream that I could do what I do now, you know, and five years before that and five years before that, you know, I mean, so it's like, there's a. There's a progression that has to happen.
You don't get time takes time until you've lived the time. Like, and my mentor said that to me. He wrote on a Facebook post, I put this thing about my dog, and he wrote on it, Time takes time. And English is four. Four of his five languages. It's his fourth. And I @ the time was like, ah, kind of doesn't make sense, you know, like, he. He's just written some words.
Yeah.
Encouraging words.
Yes. Time.
It wasn't until later that I was like, oh, that's probably one of the most profound.
Well, you told me that. I was like, that's a great.
Yeah, dude.
You can't. Because you just can't replace time with anything but time. Like, there's. There's nothing you can do. Like, time on the tools getting good. Like, some. Some skills just have to be chipped away at and there's no way to speed it up.
Yep.
And, like, a lot of the time, practice doesn't advance that. It's actual doing.
Yeah.
You know, like, you can dry fire. You Want, but you just. You got to put, you know, rounds down range. Like, that's the only way you can get it done. And so. But, yeah, like, it's a. The people who really kind of figure it out. And, like, when I'm selling a particular. Like, I have, like, a very cavalier attitude on most sales. First of all, I'm in a position where I just don't care if they buy. I have no to give. Like, yeah, whatever, man. Do it. Don't. I don't care. Like, it doesn't affect my day.
Right.
That. That gives me a level of, like, I remember selling a guy into inner circle once, and he goes, oh, you don't care if I buy? And I was like, well, I want you to buy. I was like, but does it affect me if you don't? Not at all. Like, it affects me if you do, but it doesn't affect me if you don't.
Okay.
And that's a powerful position to be in.
Yeah.
Like, I would like the money, and I think that you would benefit from it. If I don't do a good enough job at explaining the benefit, that's not your fault. That's my fault. I can use it. I can get better from it. I win if you buy. I did a good job. I get money. I win. It's that easy.
Yeah.
Like, and I think a lot of people put way too much pressure on themselves to perform super early. And a lot of that is, like, they put themselves in positions, like, they do it to themselves because they try and take on too much too soon. You know, I've been tremendously lucky where, like, I didn't realize that me calling leads for eight hours a day was training for something I was going to be doing later.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, because I don't think I could do that now. Like, as in, I don't think that, like, to come into sales, like, people go, I'm commission only at zero risk. It's like, well, what if it cost me $500 to put somebody in front of you?
Yeah.
And then you sell one in five into a $5,000 program, and you have the audacity of wanting 20%.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's like, I'm gonna get five grand. Cost me 2500 to get them there, and then you want a thousand. So Now I've got 1500 left over, and I have to deliver and pay tax. It's like, that is a huge risk, which is why the turnover of sales staff is so high, because people don't really have a Very good graduated process tool. And they don't allow people to get into it because they hate doing sales so much. They just want somebody else to do it.
How many people in the sales industry do you think recognize that opportunity cost? Like, really think about every, every prospect that they're talking to. Really consider it cost someone a unknown dollar amount to put me on the phone with this person.
Not many sales guys, but I think like the sales managers and sort of sales trainers, I think they see that.
And is that a helpful, like, would it be better if they did? Or is that, would that be unhelpful? Would that like add a layer of difficulty or complexity or just a, you know, an. A thought that is unhelpful in the process?
I think it helps. I think one of the reasons why I was so tenacious in follow up and referrals and like, whenever I had a no show, I had an hour, I wouldn't just do nothing. I would call all the people who, you know, signed up for things and didn't buy or they were in pipeline. And I would just do that because I'd spent the previous 10 years paying for every lead. Like, if you pay for the lead, you're far more tenacious how you get after it. Whereas, like, you know, kind of going back to what we talked about last episode, it's like these people have been taught that, like, inbound, inbound, inbound. So you've got inbound and outbound right out there. Be like calling, like, you get a phone number list and you call them. Right. Like that's a lot of work. And one of the things that sets Sales Sniper apart is that we have an outbound department.
Okay.
So whenever we come in, it's like, well, give me all the phone numbers of everyone who's ever done stuff and we'll outbound them and book our sales calls from that as well as getting sales calls in, which allows us to make a lot of mistakes early on. Yeah, because like, you know, because those sales calls don't cost anyone anything because it's already money they've spent. Yeah, right. So like, they book us 10 new Kohl's, but we've booked 30 of our own accord. So if we only sell five out of 40, they don't care. All they're seeing is five out of 10.
Yeah.
Because all they're looking at is the return of ad spend. Oh, it's like, oh, these guys got us a great return of ad spend. It's like, yeah, but like, and as that account gets dialed in, those Numbers will get better and better and better. But it's unrealistic to expect someone to come into a brand new business and a brand new offer and knock it out of the park day one. It's just not going to happen. And if it does, it's just, it's a unicorn. Like it's just, it's happenstance, it's not skill.
With those outbound, do you ever do anything differently to them? Knowing that it's kind of like a high risk playground where you can take risks differently than you might somewhere else? Is that.
Yeah. So we put our junior sales reps on the outbound and we have our junior sales reps take those sales calls.
Yeah.
Because they're low risk.
Yeah.
So if they muppets, fine. As long as they don't ruin. They're not going to ruin a relationship. Right. But it's like it's not, it's not expensive.
Yeah.
You know what? I don't want as a business owner to have to pay for me to figure it out.
Yeah.
So even though it's maybe a harder task.
Yeah.
Because you're selling someone that's already said no.
Right.
At some other stage to somebody else, you are putting more junior people on it as a means by which to cut their teeth.
Yeah.
Because if they fail, nobody even knew that they failed. Really. Because the outcome was already determined.
The expectation was to fail.
Yeah.
You know, so it's like I expect you to fail and it's kind of the position for them to. Well, it's a bad and a good position for them to be in one. It's very low risk. But that means it's the reward.
Right.
But it allows volume and like, listen, ideally I would have a stable of fitness clients.
Right.
That were producing us load of volume that we could just have people learning how to sell on fitness for like six months and then move them on to high ticket.
Yeah. Right.
But the problem is with, it's very hard to find consistent fitness like lead flow. There's only guys that have cracked that nut. And so like, because that's how I learned. Marco learned on fitness. I learned on fitness. Will Odoms learned on fitness. Will Hinkson learned on fitness. Bill learned on fitness. Like I would say seven of the top 10 sales reps that we have all did fitness first.
Yeah.
Right. And it's because it's a highly emotional, high volume sale.
Yeah.
So you get to talk to loads of people and you like have to navigate lots and lots and lots of emotions and lots of objections. I Mean, like.
Yeah, I mean, nobody wants it. Like, well, you still might need it, but nobody wants.
Yeah. So they have to stop doing things they enjoy, start doing things they hate, be in physical pain and pay money for it. So it's like, thanks, Wonderful. Thanks for coming.
Yeah. Right.
That's why gyms are a rough game.
Yeah.
And then it's the first thing that they cut away.
Yeah.
Even though it's probably the last thing they should cut away. People will smoke diaries flat out before they join a gym.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's crazy.
Yeah.
But again, that just instilled in my mind, oh, people make bad decisions.
Yeah.
So it's my job to help them.
There's a lot of weird similarities there. So, like, that's where I got really good at dogs, was working on failed military working dogs. They'd already failed and they'll wait. The, the dogs that I really cut my teeth on were waiting for the financial year to be put down.
Oh.
So there was no money left in the vet tank. And so we were literally waiting for money because they were like, you know, many, many reasons why. And they all had their own reasons. But so every interaction I had with them was a positive for the dog, even if I'm making mistakes. And. Yeah. So I was like, I could teach them anything I wanted. I could do anything I wanted because they were, they were never going to work. And every interaction with them was bettering what was left of their life. And so it's very similar to, in a way, but it's, it's that, like, I can take risks that I wouldn't take with a dog that was still in the service.
Yeah, exactly. And so that's why, like, we developed that Alpha Bravo Charlie. So it's like the Charlie's are new guys and they're coming in, they're doing outbound, like straight outbound, trying to convince people to get on a sales call.
Right.
Which is sometimes quite difficult. It's very laborious and it's like a high volume. Lots of conversations because I think like people just. And people just having converse. So strange. Like you can be talking to someone, we can be chatting and then you put a camera on them and they're like, yeah. Yes. And like, that's. To me, that is weird.
Yeah. Yeah.
But I also look at like videos of me three years ago and I'm like, I can see how much more casual I am on camera now. But people, they get on sales calls and they get really nervous and so like, the only way you can cut your teeth on that is just to do it, you know? I mean, it's just exposure therapy. So if you just get a list of 10,000 people and you just got to call them, 400 a day, that's what you got to do.
Have you noticed you're with like, younger generation now that don't really talk on the phone at. In their, like, formative teenage years, everything's text.
Right.
Has that had a flow on effect? Do you see that having an effect in themselves?
Well, we've used it because we have a whole department of 19 year olds that set calls over messenger.
Yeah, but are they stuck there?
Some of them are.
Yeah.
Some of them are because they. I would say. No, I would say none of them are probably stuck there long term. They'll probably make, like, make a leap because we'll force them to. Do you know what I mean? But some of them might sink once we force them to make the leap.
Right.
It's like, you remember when you're a kid, you had to call like, hello, Mrs. Stewart? Yeah, yeah, can I please speak to Patrick?
Yeah.
Or when you're calling a chick, calling a chick's house.
Yeah, hello?
Speak to whoever answers the phone. You didn't know who was gonna answer the phone. And you had to like, wasn't that. Yeah. You had to introduce yourself. You had to talk to a total stranger, ask for something from them, and then have a conversation over the phone. It's like, to us, it's no big deal. That's a very normal thing. But that is. That's peculiar now. Like that. That just doesn't happen.
Yeah.
And I think that that probably prepped a different generation for sales calls differently.
It's funny, like, a lot of the guys, I think they. I think it might have had on the people that I'm encountered with a sort of opposite effect, especially with COVID of like a yearning for interaction.
Okay. Yeah. Right.
You know, because like, the. The level of like, intensity that I see from these young. These young people.
Young yap scallions.
Right, right. Is like they are desperate to, like, move up in this environment. And whether some of that is just the fact that we've created a good culture. But I think also it's like everyone is so sort of transposed these days. And especially with COVID and all that kind of stuff, like, everyone's remote. Like, there's a need for human connection, I think, more than ever. And so, like, being able to effectively communicate with people is a very good. A very good skill set to have.
Yeah.
And I think, like, the better I get at sales, the better I get at articulating how I'm feeling and the better I am at reading how other people are feeling. Because, like, when I go to the army, like, I had no, like, empathy, right? Like, I just didn't. I didn't know what it was.
It doesn't have a place. I had to learn it.
Yeah, yeah, you really do have to learn it. I think when you have children, it kind of, it settles in. But I remember having a conversation with a personal training client of mine and she was self sabotaging like crazy. Like, hate eating chocolate.
Right?
I know exactly who you're talking about.
Yeah.
And I went to her and I was like, like, locked her in a room. I was like, why are you doing this? Like, like, why, like, why are you so afraid of, of failing? And it wasn't. This is a real eye opening moment because, like, I just didn't know that human beings had this much capacity for emotion because I had spent so long suppressing my capacity for emotion because I had to kill people for a job. So it's like, if you're very emotional person, that's not great, right? Or you'll just tear yourself apart. You know what I mean? And she was like, what if I lose the weight and I still don't find a partner? And I was like, oh, this is fear of success. This is like a deep seated emotional. This is a thing that I can control and justify my life through continuing to be overweight, even though, like, I desperately don't want to, but I'm desperately afraid not to be. And I was like, wow, I don't have that much emotion in my body. And I tell my wife all the time, I'm like, she's just like, this is how I'm feeling. I'm like, I don't know how you women get around. I was like, you guys just have so much emotion in such little bodies. But that's. It was an, it was an eye opening moment for me and it was like, like a, like a lot more empathy.
Yeah.
Was installed in me through working with her.
I don't know if the army teaches it or selects for it, but a total lack of empathy is required in, in that job. Like, I really couldn't understand how, like, especially in conflicts, if you can really empathize with the opposition and say, like, which I now can absolutely do.
Oh, yeah.
I'm like, oh, I see how you got to here. Like, yeah, yeah. And given the same set of circumstances.
I'd be right there with You.
I'd be there. And. And so how in good conscience could I possibly kill you for this?
I came into your house.
Yeah, right.
Blew up your door.
Yeah.
From your perspective. Now, you might be wrong, and there could be lots of reasons, but from your perspective, you. You are in the right.
No one thinks they're the bad guy.
No, exactly. Right. Oh, dude, that's a. That's a heavier topic for another time. There's one more thing I want to talk about, and it's the people, the sales guys, who are addicted to the act of selling. How much do you see that? I mean, like, is that an important trait or is that something that those guys have to deal with? Like, is it a pro or is it a con? Because I see it sometimes. You see people who can't stop selling and they've got all the money in the world, even when the sale, like, the sale. My inverted comments for people only on audio is, you know, they're not actually making money. They're just convincing someone of something, but they can't not do it. Is that a good or a bad trait?
I guess it would define if you think it would be. Involve someone telling me if they think I'm that way.
Okay.
So I don't. I don't know if I'm that way. I don't think I am.
No, I don't observe that. I don't observe that for you.
You.
But, like, so Jeremy can't stop.
Yeah.
But it's not that he's trying to sell. It's just who he is as a human.
Okay.
He is fundamentally trying to persuade the world around him to bend to his wants.
Okay. Right.
Like, and he's very good at it.
Yeah.
So generally speaking, it works out.
Yeah. Right.
Marco, I would say, is probably addicted to selling the dopamine hit. I would say, like, it's. But it's very different.
Right.
Marco just loves the deal.
Yeah.
You know, and he'll make deals that.
Make no sense for the fun of it.
Yeah.
Like, I remember one time he goes, hey, I just signed up this client for B2B sales training. And I was like, but we were already doing B2B sales training over here. And I was like, but you just sold them, so they're going to cancel that and do this. He's like, yeah. And I was like, why did you even bother?
Yeah, cut the deal.
Done. I was like, what are you saying? Right. But it's like. It's that, like, I see an opportunity to sell something. Like, when I came to you with that content. You're like, we haven't sold that, have you? It's like, oh, we definitely have. Like, I had.
I legitimately thought that was a joke. Like, I was like, oh, these guys?
No. Like, if you give Marco a product, he'll sell it.
Yeah, yeah.
Especially when he has to believe in it. And he sells in a relatively interesting framework. He uses lots of leadership and is very, like, elegant and emotional. Selling, like, very Italian.
Like.
Like, it's very different to me, but it's the same. Any pq, but it's just different, like, I guess, expressions of it, you know? But I think. Yeah, I think people can definitely be addicted to the dopamine hit. And I think, like, it is. It's a fun job. Like, especially when you're good at it, and it's horrible when you're not.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, like, sales is one of those things. Like, there's a reason why dudes stay in sales their whole life.
You know what I mean?
Like, especially if. If you are good at it, like, you are fully blown master of your own destiny. It's the closest thing to an athletic endeavor in business because it really is, like, it is the meritocracy of all meritocracies, because if you're good, you make money. If you're not, you don't. There's no good salesperson that doesn't make a lot of money, and there's no good salesperson that's in between opportunities. Because if you're really good, then you just get given opportunity because you're really, like, the moment that people figured out I could make them money, like, you are looked at in a very different way. Like, the amount of like. And that's why sales Sniper is as successful as it is, because they go, oh, those guys can make me money.
Yep.
And that's like, it's just different. Like, and for. For better and for worse.
Yeah.
Like, salespeople are taken advantage of tremendously because salespeople are the business's biggest cheerleader. Because in. To be good at selling, unless you are just totally sociopathic, you have to be an absolute champion of that business.
Right.
Not that you're the wacky arm Fabian inflatable tube man of, like, we're the greatest. But it's like, you have to have a level of conviction about what you're selling that, like, people can borrow their conviction off you to get them over the line so they believe in themselves and all that kind of stuff. So really, that's why, like. Like, if there's refunds or delivery issues, you should try and shelter the sales team. Which is why I don't believe like refunds, I don't believe, unless it's a very quick refund. I don't think that sales people should know that happened or their comms should be taken away. It just reduces their confidence in the product, which means they will sell less ultimately. So it's like you're better off just taking the hit. Like when there's a refund, say like six or eight weeks down the track, a lot of the time I'll go to the business and they go on a refund. I go, well, I'll refund my portion. And then we're both taking a hit. But the sales guy never has to know, okay, how about that? And they go, okay, that's a good move. Because then the sales guy is none the wiser. There's still the champion out there in the front. But that leaves a salesperson very open to being taken advantage of by the business owner because they are the champion, right? So that they can just go, hey, I just need this from you. I just need this from you. And then all of a sudden the salesperson who's a commission only person ends up doing all the sales training, putting IP into the portal, writing scripts for clients, going to like, you know, intensives and paying their own tickets and all this kind of stuff because like, because the business pays them a lot of money, but it's payment for a direct service and has nothing to do any of that so that they can get taken advantage of. And that's a lot of the reasons why salespeople get resentful of the business that they work in is because they're asked to do things that they shouldn't really be asked to do.
So let's summarize the last two hours.
Yeah.
What is it that makes people or lets a Salesperson become the 1 percenter of top sales performance and what is it that stops people from becoming that?
I think it's a constant and persistent needing to improve on process and the acknowledgement that it can always be done better.
Right?
And surrendering to the process, like just, it's a process, deal with it. Which then emotionally detaches you from the outcome. Because all you're doing is trying to perfect your process. Like if all you're doing is trying to get the perfect pull on your bow, Pull and release, pull and release. If that's all you're focused on, whether or not the wind affected your shot, again, that's a different process. But it's like if you just pull and release, you get that perfect. You're now in the best possible position to. If that sight lines up correctly, you will hit the bullseye.
Right.
And then it's about. Then. Then it's about, okay. Making sure that I'm dropping at the right. Anyway, shooting references. Right. But so it's like I'm focusing on process. Hey, I did everything right. A giant gust of wind came out of nowhere and blew it off track. No, I did everything right.
Right.
There's no need to get angry about that. So that's what I think causes a good one. What stops people from being good is, is I can only explain it in, like, an analogy because it's like. Like blaming circumstances and making the problems bigger than them so there's no point trying to solve them. You know, like the dog trainer who blamed Covid. You know what I mean? No. Covid came, wiped out my business. I was like, well, I'm killing it. What are you doing? Yeah, Like, I. Oh, that's a problem. It's not my fault, but it's certainly my problem. I better try and fix that.
Yeah.
And so I think a lot of people just believe, oh, my industry. I can't get any. It's like, well, you can. There's definitely someone making more money than you.
Right, right.
And doing it better. Timing my area. Like, no, it just comes down to your skill set. If you're really, really good, you'll do really, really well. Like, it's the same. Like, if you are amazing at throwing baseballs, chances are you'll end up throwing baseballs for a living, making a ton of money. You know, if you're really good at basketball, there's. There's no. Like, there's all. There's very few NBA level players that are not in the NBA.
That's a good point. Yeah.
You know, and so I think, like, if you just acknowledge that, like, there is always a better way to do it. And I think that's why one of the things, like, having Jeremy there. And I'm sure there's people that Jeremy look up to in terms of sales. Knowing Jeremy, maybe there isn't. But, like, you know what I mean? Like, you can see what's possible. You're like, like, I know a guy called Joseph Roeberry who's a door to door salesman for Solar. He makes $100,000 a month and has for the last four years. That dude's a beast. And he. I also know door to door salespeople who make two grand a month for solar. Same thing, similar areas, same industry, massive difference in skill set. And it's like that dude just methodically went through his process, has been working with Jeremy for years and he is like the poster child of an EPQ for door to door.
Right.
I know in of terms.
