Lead Quality: The Great Debate

Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of Cosfius for closers. Matt and James here today. Yeah, we're gonna have a little bit of a different one today. A little back and forth repertoire. Me and James have a slightly different opinion on something, which is good, which we actually have all the time, but you guys don't get to hear it very often. Most of the time, it's just James massaging my balls.

We tend to agree on it in 99% of the way, except the disagreement is probably on the application and when and where to use or to look at this. And I probably look at it from a different point of view as opposed to what you do because of the hats that we have. So it'd be interesting to debate, argue, because I'm all for changing my mind if you can convince me to.

Behind a white table.

I don't think you can convince me.

I started changing your mind three days ago.

But I. I think you can convince me in situations, but not enough to change my mind.

All right, cool. Well, a man convinces gens's will is of the same opinion still. So let's start the inception.

If you got something good enough to change my mind, I'll do it. I'm all for moving forward.

Yeah.

If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. I'm going to repeat, will make a million dollars within three years of the first episode. You listen to we don't want pikers. We're not here to save the manatees. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this, you listen and review.

Put that coffee down. Well, the topic of today is, is what is a qualified prospect? And I think a qualified prospect is anyone who can benefit from the program.

Yeah, I think a qualified prospect is a couple of things. One, somebody has funds available, access to funds to purchase a product. Two, they will receive benefit from that product or that product has tangible benefits for that person. And three, they're in a position to utilize that product to its potential.

Well, I think the first two are the same thing.

I think they're.

Sorry, the second two. The second two are the same thing. So anyone who can benefit from it has to be able to get an ROI in whatever that looks like.

I agree. And I'll. I'll go into more detail about the distinguishing features, like, from my perception later.

But yeah, for sure the first one is has access to funds. Now, let's break that down a little bit. So are we talking about has access to the funds for the entire program or access to funds for the initial payment that it takes to get started.

For the initial payment to get started.

Okay. And what does access to funds mean?

They have money on their credit card, they have the cash in the bank account.

What if I get someone to sell their car?

Then go for it.

Okay. So we have the same outlook. Because I just have an outlook that everyone can be resourceful enough to get the, to get, to get the money. Because I don't think that money is a particularly hard thing to get if you are being resourceful.

Yep.

So like for me, like it's not up to me to dictate what someone's willing to do to get money. Right. And so like I think that like this phone cost $2,000 if a sales coaching program was $3,000 and I made not, not much money. Right. But I could sell my phone, buy a flip phone, make a thousand dollars, buy a flip phone for a hundred, make the same level of sales call on a flip phone that I can normal phone and then put a thousand dollars down towards a sales coaching program. I think that's a good investment. So which brings me back like anyone who can benefit from the program is a qualified prospect.

Yeah, yeah. And like whilst I agree with you the most part, the reasons why there's.

A well thought out argument with tangible examples.

Yeah, it was good. And I come into the disagreement point of view from a area of more administration and business. Right?

Yeah. You're worried about people not making the second payment.

Absolutely. Because you're very good at debating, you're very good at selling people and you could convince me to sell something. And here's the thing I'd say and with not putting tickets on myself that me and you probably are the type of people that do what it takes to make shit happen. Therefore if I needed to sell a phone I would do it. However, I don't believe in a general consensus that most humans are in that 1% that can make it happen. And therefore in most situations I believe that they would probably fail their second payment and then they would be. They would leave the program and not be able to finish it or not get the two tangible things that I said later, the benefit and have the resources to apply to that program, therefore, which is usually in most cases going to end in either a, a refund or somebody exiting the program and not completing the contract. Mostly because I don't believe people are good enough to do that. However, and I agree with you on the fact in selling them into that for the one and one reason only that I Believe those people should be given the opportunity to find out for themselves if they are that person that can make shit happen.

Yeah. Yeah. And so the way that I look at it is, like, all I can do is help people put themselves in the best position possible to be able to achieve their outcome. I can't make them do it.

No. And that's one step closer to it.

Yeah. So like, the way that I see it is like, okay, well, I've put myself in situations where I was not in the best spot financially or time wise or like, committed to things that make life difficult in general in order to get a very particular outcome. And so, like, people don't see the benefit of doing that until they do it and come through the other side. It doesn't mean that, like, the first time you do it, you win. Like, which is an important part of some of the analogies that I do. And I'm selling people, which is like, if you're on an island surrounded by water, yada, yada, yada, you got to pick a direction, start walking now. The reality is sometimes you drown. So, like, I don't ever guarantee outcomes for anybody. There's all you can do. And so all the positioning that I do when I sell is not about getting an outcome. Because I don't believe that selling a particular outcome is a good idea for the prospect, the salesperson or the account holder. I don't think it's beneficial because, like, the only things that are guaranteed in life is death, taxes, and that when you die, you pay more tax. That's it. However, all we can do as people is what it takes to put ourselves in the best position possible to achieve our outcome. And so if I believe that the program that I'm selling is beneficial to that person, then and I believe that it puts them in the best position to give them the outcome that they want. And I think I'm doing them a disservice by being a pussy and not selling them into it. Because, like, Einstein has a great quote, which is it's, we cannot solve our problems with the same level of thinking that created them.

I agree. Absolutely.

It's not really that I think I'm right, it's just that I agree with Einstein.

No, I think you're right, but I think you're wrong. All right. Even if you make like my wife. Yeah, yeah, say that. Say that again. I miss that.

I usually lose those arguments as well.

Yeah.

And you'll lose this one.

So now I, I agree that you should sell that person. Right. But I Don't agree that they're qualified.

Okay, well, that's. Okay, that's a, that's a conundrum.

Let me ask you.

Let's just take a sales coaching offer for an example, because that's what I'm currently selling.

Okay.

Right. If we take that, we can take any offer really, whether it's let's take a fitness offer. Right. Or whatever. Right. But is one month of sales coaching better than no. Months of sales coaching?

Yes.

Okay. And considering the fact that there's already been money, time and effort gone into getting that person on a call for the business, this is a debatable one. Is it better to have signed that person or to have not signed that person? Is it better to have taken the money or not taken the money? I think I'm not taking refunds into account because refunds are actually a real rarity. So I don't want to take red herrings. But pausing and downgrading that kind of stuff is a real thing, especially.

Hands down for the business. Better take.

So then the qualification questions comes down to me to an ego argument probably. Like, because if we know that the bend, the business benefits, the salesperson benefits, the prospect benefits, even if they don't go all the way through and they will get something out of it, even if it wasn't what they hoped to, but they're not going to pay the whole thing anyway. Worst case scenario, best case scenario, they figured out crush it. Worst case scenario, they fall fat on their face. They at least learned a lesson.

Yes. Which I'm all about.

Yeah. So in terms of qualification, it almost takes away the need to even have the discussion because we can agree that the benefit on all sides is there. So the qualification factor comes down to like, does the salesperson think they can do it? Which is an ego question, not necessarily like a tangible argument. So do we cater to the ego of the salesperson by allowing them to think that the prospects are unqualified? Is that a productive line of conversation?

No.

Okay. So all prospects are qualified.

You could say that. You could say that. Right. Doesn't mean. There you go.

So seven minutes.

All right. Now that's the hard one to get out of.

That's difficult because I changed the whole frame towards something that I know you agree with.

Yeah, yeah. But I still don't have to mess up, I'll give you that. But no, no, no. And here's what. Right. Because now, well, we have to define the metric.

We have to define what qualified means.

And exactly my point. I was going, you Kind of ruin it for me now. But I was going to give you my argument and then make you agree with me and then say the reason we both agree with each other is because we did have different perceptions of what qualified mates. Because we do right now.

Let's.

Let's go into it, right? So for me, like, if we allow those people to become qualified, then we are no longer able to make adjustments and changes to the marketing to target higher quality leads that are going to benefit more and therefore increase conversion rates, increase ROIs and increase the amount of money in advertising that can be spent to help more people. And because you don't define them as unqualified, you can break businesses because of.

Your skill set or continue to break businesses.

Exactly right. So that is a problem. And going back to your ego, it's like, is it your ego that is getting in the way of you saying that, hey, this person is unqualified? Because I believe they can be unqualified and still be sold. And that comes down to skill set right of the salesperson. However, that skill set of the salesperson cannot be a factor in which you run your business, because it is.

Yeah, I agree with that. We've had that conversation a few times.

Because you cannot consistently for that person's offer to grow in that person's business to scale. It's great for growth, poor for scaling, so that you can grow your business to a point and going that path of what you believe. But you cannot scale it because it means that for to scale, you have to bring on salespeople that are at the exact same skill level of you that will sell those unqualified people all the time even if they don't fulfill the whole contract.

Yeah.

Which is a problem because it's very difficult to one find and to train people to be able to replicate the numbers that you would provide. Therefore, defining people as unqualified and putting that on enables the business owners to fix the marketing fix funnels to get more appropriate leads in that are easier to sell and that have a better chance of fulfilling their obligations to the contract. Okay, Would you agree with that?

Let's break down what James just did. James did a few things there. He didn't appeal to an authority. So he labeled me as the authority and very good at what I did and said that we can't use that as a metric because it's unreliable. Because appealing to my ego, saying that we can't rely on people being as good as you, which I happen to agree with, also a terminology that we both came up with that we can break businesses because we've done it in the past. So it's something that we know. But the question is, okay, how I would loop out of that is that it's a dangerous game. Now I think I can have. Because we've had the conversation before, we're saying yes, I will sell them. No, they are not a good lead. Okay, so like they are financially poorly qualified. So. But now I said poorly qualified. I was very, very.

I know what you said. I let it go. So you can make your point, right?

So, so now I think now the system that you brought in was a 1 to 5 of a lead quality, right? 0 being unqualified. And then there's different gradations of qualification. So like there's. I think we can both agree there's no black and white when it comes to qualification as long as we have the objective metrics of we are seeing, yes, we can sell these people, yes, they benefit from the program, they are somewhat qualified prospects. But we need to have an unemotional data driven decision where we are not getting ahead of ourselves. Like when I sold 30 people in the first two weeks into Jeremy's program. I was like, I had, we had the conversation going. We probably shouldn't take this as as like a good sign because the hard, the sales are extraordinarily hard for. So like I see what you're saying, but I think as long as, I guess your perspective is more of like we don't want to break the business and we don't want to give people false sense of securities and saying that your leads are qualified. But I also don't want the sales guys to fucking. I want them to believe that you can sell anybody. Right? And the thing is we can go into the fact that I'm really good at objection handling, which I think is pretty true. I think there's some shortcomings in my sales game, but I don't think objection handling is one of them. I can loop people around and get them over the line. Not everybody can do that. But how do you become good at it? You speak to a lot of lower qualified prospects. So you handle a lot of objections. It comes down to a few things, right? Like we're both correct as usual. It comes down to a few things. One like I think every prospect that can benefit from a program deserves the.

Opportunity to be sold 100% agree.

Unless you have an enormous volume of prospects, in which case you need to be more. But that's purely from a, purely from a capacity point of View, which is you can fix that with throwing people at it. Like, but is that beneficial? Maybe, maybe not. I think that everyone is sellable. And, like, I think that everyone. So therefore, I think everyone's qualified, because I don't want to sell unqualified people. Like, I have not sold people into Jeremy's program whilst on the phone with them, because the commissions they got was like $62 a sale. And I was like, brother, there is no chance in hell you get an ROI from this program. I cannot sew you into this.

Yep.

Like, this is ridiculous. You can't. $3,000 a month. You have to make. You have to make so many sales. It was like 500 sales or some shit like that, like, just to break even. It's ridiculous.

We're not mathematicians with sales guys.

It's just. Was it 50? I don't know, 50 sales? Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot, right? 50 times 60 would be 3,000. Yeah, it's a lot, right? So I was like, dude, I just don't like the chances of you being able to make 50 sales a month to cover this, like, let alone 50 extra on top of what you're already doing. And I told him, I said, if you're willing to learn the skills, that you can transition into a different industry so you can make more money, it's a really good prospect for you. But if that's not what you're looking to do right now, let's just table this whole conversation until, like, six months from now and you found a better opportunity. There's differences. Right? So, like, I don't just want to sell anybody into a program. I want to make sure they can actually get something out of it. But I think, like, two and three. Yeah, exactly. So, like, that's an unqualified prospect.

Correct.

But I think, like, anyone who can benefit from it is qualified. They have to be able to get an roi and they have to, like, Like, I'm not going to sell my mom into this program. Like, she doesn't sell. There's no benefit to her. But if there's an ro, if there's a tangible benefit from doing the program and the person can get an roi, either short term or long term, that is going to benefit them, their life, their family moving forward, then I think it's a good idea to sell that person.

Yeah. So we had a bit of a technical issue there. We were in the middle of making a point. Can't figure out exactly what that point was. So in the comments, just send us A message to reiterate that if you didn't understand them, and we'll, we'll come back to that. But I had a question for you. If you have a salesperson on staff, let's say for 10 hours a week and they're only giving you 10 hours, do you want to fill them up with people that I would call unqualified but you would call qualified, or do you want them to have the best quality so that they can get the greatest roi?

Why is it one or the other? Because it depends where they're at. Only have, like, who are we talking about? Are we talking about A level people, B level people, C level people? Like, where are they at in their sales career?

Let's call, let's, let's go with B levels.

Put them in if they're brand new. I just want to fill them up with everybody. I just want them to have loads of interactions with human beings.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.

The more interactions they have, the better. So like call every Tom, Dick and Harry on the planet and try and.

You'Ve only got them for 10 hours. If you have a hundred leads, do you want to give them the first 10 or do you want to filter them and get them the best 10?

I think it really depends on what you're trying to do.

Like I really make the most money possible.

Yeah. Over what period of time? You know, like, so I don't think it's a question that's fair because I don't think you have the ability to do that.

You don't?

No.

Why not?

Unless you're triaging for people. So then it's a sales process thing. In which case, like, obviously you're trying to get the best people through, but sometimes we don't do that.

That's true.

Right. So like sometimes we just go, let's just throw as much spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. Sometimes when we have bandwidth issues like we're talking about before then we only put the most qualified people through. Like sometimes we just go, let's just throw as much spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. Sometimes when we have bandwidth issues like we were talking about before then we only put the most qualified people through qualify people through if we have bandwidth. So it's like it's six to one. I've doesn't the other. It's all, it's all contextual and circumstance dependent. So like if I'm trying to get, you know, if I'm, if I've got someone who's a really, really high Level closer. I want them speaking to the most qualified people, you know, I mean like, like at all times because that's going to give us the best chance of getting the fastest roi. Now if I then go down to the B level person, the A level people taking those people, the B level people can take the people who are lower than that again. The C level people can take the people who are lower than again, I mean, but as that, the thing is that we're missing in that part of the conversation is like as the qualification levels drop, the volume should increase. So it's not a case of like do I want to give you 10 shit leads versus 10 good ones? Like obviously we want 10 good ones but like usually it's like do you want 10 really good leads or do you want 150 kind of shitty ones?

It's like, well in that case I'd take the 150. Actually, I'd still probably take the time personally because I don't have the time.

Yeah, again, so it's all, you know, it's all kind of dependent. So like, you know, I think that from a back end managerial standpoint, I think that you have to be able to have an objective look at what your lead quality is from a sales perspective. I think that you need to believe that you need to know that like if someone can benefit from the program, you should pitch them because like essentially the qualification doesn't usually come down to do we put them in a sales process? Like they're in a sales process where they're. Now what it comes down to is do we offer that person a place in the program? And the bad thing about using like it's an unqualified prospect means that that gives a lot of leeway to a salesperson. For them to use their ego to dictate who they will and won't trust. And so.

Yeah, yeah. And I like, whilst I disagree with you on this point, I in absolutely no manner don't endorse not going after and trying to sell that person that I would, that I would define as unqualified. All right.

Might be like selling qualified prospects.

Sorry, do I like it?

So, so you believe in selling unqualified prospects?

Unqualified prospects. And what I believe is unqualified for the metrics that I place on them.

Yeah, no, but then how do you tell the difference between people who are actually unqualified? Like they, so how do you then delineate to then do you have a marker of what unqualified is? Like is there a zero to five unqualified, and then a zero to five qualified. Like, is it five all the way down to negative five?

So, like, all the way down to one.

Okay. So who's. On what stage do they become unqualified at 3?

I would say unqualified. Right.

Okay. And then at what stage do you tell. Do you. At what stage did you not pitch somebody?

At one or two.

Okay. That's difficult to do retrospectively.

It is, yes.

I don't think it's. I think I actually disagree with you on this, like, genuinely.

That's fine.

So I don't know how you do that. I think there has to be a line in the sand of who you pitch and who you don't.

Yeah, yeah. So has to be a line, full clarity and it'll make sense to you. Right. So what I would consider unqualified is three, Right. I would consider four, five on that scale qualified. You would consider three qualified. Right? I wouldn't. I would still pitch three. I wouldn't put pitch one and two. You would consider one. Yeah, yeah.

So it has to be a line.

Full clarity and it'll make sense to you. Right. So what I would consider unqualified is three, Right. I would consider four, five on that scale, qualified. You would consider three qualified. Right. I wouldn't. I would. One and two unqualified, one and two slip through the cracks, whereas somehow they got a hold of your booking link and booked in a call with you and they have no idea what. Why the fuck they're on still pitch three. I wouldn't put pitch one and two. You would consider one and two unqualified. One and two slip through the cracks, whereas somehow they got a hold of your booking link and booked in a call with you and they have no idea what. Why the fuck they're on that call. That's a one. A two is they have a minor level of interest in what you're doing, but we're never going to have a level of interest. Yeah, yeah. It's still interest. Right. And those twos, you wouldn't find it appropriate to pitch them and would end the conversation earlier. Three is those people that. That you mentioned, they can find the resources, that they can sell the car and that they can do it. Whether or not they go through the whole program is questionable. I would define them as unqualified. You would define them as still qualified. Then four is they're pretty qualified. They tick most of the boxes. Four, five is they're super qualified. You should not, never not sell them. And I come at that and that's where our minor differences is settled, is on that level of three. Whilst I. I would define them as unqualified, but I wouldn't not pitch them. My whole perception of what qualified is is to go through a process of optimizing that so that we can have the majority of calls move higher towards that level, 4 and 5, as opposed to threes. That doesn't mean you don't go for it, but that's just where I draw the line. Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.

Yeah. Yeah. And from that standpoint, and I think if you're measuring people on your standards, it makes it harder to get those metrics in order to be able to grow scale a business, because your standards are far higher than what they should be for the average person because of your skill level.

People should lift their fucking games, James.

Maybe they should, but that's a whole different conversation, because if we lived in a perfect world, they would, but we don't.

So what have we come down to?

The only real disagreement that we have is what we define as unqualified. And I look at unqualified from a different set of lenses to what you do, because I don't think there's any benefit in labeling those threes as qualified for the purpose of betterment of marketing and conversion rates and roi.

All right, well, I think it's a good place to stop because I think what I'd like to see is a bunch of comments and email in the podcast as to what you think, and then, you know, maybe we'll do another podcast where we talk about this, where we go through some of the answers that we got.

That would be interesting.

I think it was very interesting. It was interesting one. It was a very interesting one. Yeah. What do you guys think was a cool thing?

You kind of changed your mind towards the end there, but didn't want to.

No. Like, my. My core positioning is very much like. I think if someone can benefit from it, I think we should pitch them. My only concern with. With your point is that I don't want people pitching unqualified prospects. So I'm very hesitant to label someone as unqualified, but then still have them be, because I don't think it provides a good. So I would go, like, the only metric that I can. I guess, ethically, the only metric that I really want to worry about is can they really benefit from the program? And if the answer to me is yes, then I'm like, sweet, it's fair game. Let's do it. If they can't Benefit, then I have no interest in selling them, even if they have the money. So that's not the metric. The metric isn't the money or the need, or the metric is, will this enrich someone's life if they do it? The answer is yes. Sweet, let's get them amongst it. If the answer is no, that's really, to me, all that matters, because then I can make sure that everyone that I sell into the program is a benefit to the program, and the program is a benefit to them. The only metric that I can, I guess, ethically, the only metric that I really want to worry about is can they really benefit from the program? And if the answer to me is yes, then I'm like, sweet, it's fair game. Let's do it. If they can't benefit, then I have no interest in selling them, even if they have the money. So that's not the metric. The metric isn't the money or the need. Or the metric is can will this enrich someone's life if they do it? The answer is yes. Sweet. Let's get them amongst it if the answer is no. You know what I mean? So, like, that to me is a really easy black and white metric that as a sales guy, I can use in order to make sure that I think I'm doing the right thing. And that's like, that's really, to me, all that matters, because then I can make sure that, like, everyone that I leaves me very little wiggle room to really have my ego fuck around in order to be able to kind of really, oh, that girl wasn't qualified. Well, what? He gave me an objection, princess. Sell into the program is a benefit to the program, and the program is a benefit to them at that. Which is like my major concern when it comes to the whole qualified, unqualified debate.

Yeah, but. And also, like, for reference, we're ideally qualifying these people before they get to a sales call. So it takes out that level of ego.

Yeah, exactly. They're doing a two step, which is also.