Leaked: Private Sales Coaching Session with Matt Ryder

What's up?

All right, can you guys hear me?

Yep.

Yeah, perfecto. All righty everyone, let's go through it. We're gonna do some role play, some Q&A. Let's get amongst it. Uh, you know, tie goes to the winner. Who's up first?

I'll go first.

Let's do it.

All right, what's your question, man?

Uh, yeah, so I was talking to Caden about, um, some high ticket stuff for, um, just kind of building out, you know, how you would do cold emailing to high ticket. Because I sell B2G, um, so I'm selling to like large police agencies, and, uh, I'm not usually cold emailing as my main approach. I'm usually cold calling, um, but he mentioned that you would be the best person to ask about cold emailing to prospects and such.

So yeah, Cody, are you doing volume or are you trying to do super targeting?

I'm more trying to do targeting because there's like, you'll have like a couple agencies in the nation that are like multi, multi-million dollar contracts. Um, so it's not so much volume for me right now. It's more so targeting like those bigger guys and even just like larger agencies. Yeah.

Yeah.

I, so, so I don't, I think that cold email could be part of a strategy or something like that. Um, it's not a good, like, it's definitely a volume strategy, right? Uh, I'm sorry. I'm switching over my computer.

Let me just, uh, While he's doing that, I can send you over some resources on cold email. I've sent hundreds of thousands of cold emails, uh, per, per month, and we're, we're still doing it to this day. So it's a pretty straightforward, it's technical.

Yeah, that would be super helpful.

Thank you.

A bunch of technical considerations that you have to do. Domain warming stuff. I've got some friends who are very good at it. They built, I won't say the company that they built the infrastructure for, 'cause they're in a bit of hot water at the moment. Most of you probably know who I'm talking about, they're in the call email. But, right, so, right. Yeah, they're responsible for that. They're very good at it though. So yeah, Like the hardest part is keeping all of your domains like not cooked.

Yeah.

Right? It's just sort of standardized email strategy when it comes to having a look at open rates. So I don't know if you've got any sort of like domain warming strategies that you've got in order to kind of keep your domains warm. Generally speaking, they use AI and send tons of emails. So you send about 50% of the emails that you send you would take that number and then send it to domains that you control, and then you like reply to them, yada yada yada, right? And that kind of keeps you out of hot water when it comes to spam. But there's a whole bunch of changes going on. But generally speaking, it's like track open rate, right? Track response rate. But I would do a more comprehensive strategy where it's like whole email, you know, like if it's quite targeted like that, you want to create more of like a web. I was, uh, helping a I had a random— helped out a random guy a couple years ago, just as an example of how to do something like this, where he, um, had a like strain of marijuana that was High Times magazine strain of the year, right? And he wanted like weed shops to stock it. Um, and so he was asking me, and I said, why don't you just hire like actors because they're cheap right, to go into the shop. And he was cold calling them. I said, hire actors to go into the shop, send them the magazine, right, of High Times, like, weed of the year. And then from there, go, hey, do you guys have this? And they were like, no. And he had like 2 or 3 people go into a shop, and then a day later he would cold call them. And he's like, this is so weird, like, I just had people ask for this. And he's like, yeah, that is weird. You know, and so, and that like, that ramped it up massively for him because like it just worked. Now his cold calls worked and they were super targeted with like larger shops that had big traffic and stuff like that, right? And so because they had people coming and asking for it, it was like sweet. Okay, so that's kind of like what I'm thinking, like when you have stuff like that, you're better off trying to think of like, how do I have some sort of unique strategy in order to like pull enough attention to where my cold email, my cold call actually kind of works.

Right.

Yeah, gotcha, gotcha.

And then also along the lines of, so part of what I sell is on, like, we don't sell it per seats anymore because it can, like, hamstring commission severely. But I have a call coming up soon with a department that wants to do less seats. So basically we sell the software and and all the officers would use it. They want to not have all their officers use it. We don't usually do that. They want to use like 10 less. And just for this case, because it would make me an extra good bit of money, but also for the future, you know, circumstances when— yeah, always try to do this. How would you kind of handle that? Because that's an objection in a sense of like, they're—

yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't do it. I guess from a business standpoint, like we do that, like I think getting your foot in the door, land and expand is a phenomenal model, right? I mean, if you're not allowed to do it, I don't see why you wouldn't be because like you can't make them buy it, right? You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, like, but it is an objection that you'd probably have to set that up because if they give that to you at the end and you haven't really done anything to pre-handle it like just logically, it'd be like, yeah, but I don't want all the officers to be on it yet. You're like, well, then we're all or nothing. You know, I mean, you kind of then just got to guard it from a logic like we're all or nothing. Like, the reason why it doesn't work that way— if it doesn't work, doesn't work. You know what I mean? Like, we want— we don't want people on dialer to have their dialer teams split. Like, we say no, but they can have their sales team and their outbound team. But if they want to come in and be like, oh, we just want to have 2 dialers on and test it, we just go, no, don't bother. We don't try to overcome, we just go, no, we don't want that because it creates just like these issues. And then like our software is designed to create a lot of transparency and we remove the ability for the dialers to do certain things, which means that like they're going to default to the other system because they have more freedom. But it's not about what they want, it's about what you want, right? And so like we only do it this way for this reason and they go, oh, okay. And then it's like they're either going to do it or not. Do you know what I mean? They're either gonna take that risk or they're not. Right? So it's more of like just a logic game. But if you can do it, like if it's, there's no specific reason, it's just, you don't normally do it, then I wouldn't like, personally, I would just like land and expand as a good model. Like we'll do a department, a specific department, as long as it's the whole department, right? Like they might have 3 outbound departments. If we take one whole department, that's fine. But it's when you've got split for us. So like we actually have a reason for it.

But if there's no reason for it, you know, yeah, our, our main reason is because if departments try to think, you know, if, if the departments have it in their mind that our contract's like modular and they can like change how many seats they want, then if they trial, when they, when we put them on a trial and say we gave them 15 seats, if only 10 of them actually use it, um, even if I did my due diligence in training them and all those things, and it's just, you know, some lazy officers that aren't good with tech and they don't use it, then they can just be like, oh, you know, instead of, you know, buying 300 seats from you guys, we want to buy like 100. And that's— yeah, you know, that's dividing the commission by—

yeah. So yeah, I mean, if that— if that's the only reason, it's not going to hold a ton of water when it's scrutinized. I mean, so you're just going to decide as to whether or not— like, if the reason is because like we might make less money, it's not gonna hold much water. Yeah, I mean, you have to act for a reason.

Apartments is like, you're having the issue of overtime issues, it's taking forever for you to write reports. It makes no sense to only apply a solution to 60%.

So going at it logically is totally fine, but like, if the underlying reason is actually money, it's probably not going to hold much water. Yeah, right. So like, it's not, it's not going to do that much. But I'll move on because it's been a while. But yeah, those underlying reasons are important. All right, who's next?

I have a question, Jamie. Yeah, so I, I kind of have like two questions mixed into one, I guess. I feel like they're kind of linked together. Um, for like the last month of April, like I've been on a big downward spiral in terms of closing. My, um, show to close rate is at like around 10%, like plus or minus 3%. And then, um, my show rates at around like 45% around there. And I was thinking that is partially due to like the fact that like I don't really know if I fully, fully understand like the, the process, like, like intuitively, like what I'm trying to get out of each section.

Cause like I have like, I mean, I wouldn't even with a 45% show rate, I wouldn't worry too much about clothes, but I would just try and raise your show rate.

Okay.

Like that's much more low-hanging fruit, much easier, much simpler, much faster. Like, like, uh, do you do your own setting and someone do it for you, or is it just put on the calendar for you?

Yeah, it was just in the sense of like, um, the first half it was, um, inbound through setters and then, you know, inbound calls. And then, um, then like after second half they took me off the inbounds, right, because I wasn't doing that well. Um, and the only reason I'm still on the offer was because, um I just sat in like the follow-up tab and just closed a bunch of like no sales, right? Objection, handle them and close them. So I had like a bit of, I started a bit of cash collected, um, so I can make some bread, but it's like in a sense that even if I set my own guys, like, you know, show rates, all right, like not that good. Sometimes I pitched them over the phone, right? Right then and there.

Yeah.

You didn't really answer the question though. So sorry. Like, are you booking your own calls?

As of right now, yeah.

Okay, sweet. So your show rate should be 85%, right? So like, you're either not following a process when you book them in, you're like sounding too thirsty, you know what I mean? You're going too far in it. A setting call should be like 7-10 minutes tops, right? Not to go any more than that. And you should have a specific process that causes people because like even with a 10% close rate, like you still, you set 20 You set, you know, 25, 20% off, right? So like that, that should be fine. If you're doing your own outbound and you're doing like at the right times a day and you're actually like thinking about it, you should be able to set like 5 a day, no worries, right? So that should be 2 sales a week pretty, pretty consistently. Do you know what I mean? So like, if it's gonna get more than that, but the first thing is you need opportunity, right? And so just like fixing your show rate is the fastest way to making more sales. So it's like, am I, am I following? Am I confirming them? Right. Do I write out my process that I have in order to actually make them show up? Write out exactly when I finish. What are the words that I say in order to like give myself the best chance of them showing up? What are the texts and/or emails that I'm sending out beforehand? How far am I booking them out? Right. Those are really like the big sort of areas that you really want to have nailed in. And then from there you can start going like, okay, cool. I really want to increase this process. Right. I need to get it up to like when you're booking your own calls, you should like 70% should be like without trying. Right. So, so like if it's under that, then it's like you're either booking people in weird times, booking them too far out. You're not doing a confirmation process. So like you're not like getting them to actually like you're booking them in. Hey, did you get the email? Yes. Can you hit accept for me? Okay, perfect. Thank you very much. Right. So it's actually going onto their diary. You know what I mean? Um, and then like booking them in for like, say, like next day or like day after that, which is ideal. Then from there, giving them a confirmation text and email. They don't respond to that, then call them, right? So like, it should never— uh, you can, right? Um, you can for sure, but it's like most people aren't— that's not— most people don't have the time same day, but if they do, great, right? I find like same day is actually like a little bit less effective than next day, right? Either pitch them on the day, either like pitch them on the phone, right? Or like book them in for like the next day and then send them all the resources and stuff.

Yeah. And this kind of leads into my, my, my next question ties in, right? Because in terms of like the process, right?

For—

because I know you say on setting calls, it's just be connection situation and just like brief problem awareness, right? You stop at the rationale question, like you don't get to that. When it comes to like the, the, like, the connecting phase for, for, and situation phase for, for the Biz Op, because I'm a Biz Op day trading mentorship. It's like, like, what should be that, that connecting, like, overarching goal that I'm looking for? Like, is it just like, like, literally, like the, like, tangible—

Have you gone through the scripting, the scripting section?

Yeah.

Yeah. What did you come up with?

Well, I mean, I was battling back and forth, right? So I came up with either, okay, like I'm just looking for like a life outcome, whether it's just like a concrete, oh, I want to make more money, right? Or I have more time freedom, whatever. Or just like some sort of like offer specific, like, um, I want to become—

what is the marketing? What's, what's, what's the marketing talk about?

It talks about, um, figuring out like, uh, mastering, improving day trading strategies, helping out with your psychology, like day trading specific stuff. So then you can actually achieve—

for what rate?

What'd you say? To, to be able to make money and have time for your own day trader.

Yeah, yeah, there you go. That's your connecting.

Okay, right.

It's the reason that brought them in.

Okay, so then, so then when it comes to situation? Is it like—

because like, have you gone through it? Because I'm gonna— I'm gonna say, have you gone through it like properly? Yeah, like, you haven't?

Fine.

It's—

that's the thing, I'm like, I'm confused. Like, I've literally watched this, like, okay, that's fine, you're confused, that's fine.

I'm, I'm probably happy with that. So connecting questions is, why are you here? Why are you here is usually going to be directly tied to the marketing, right? Because like, why are you here? Oh, I want to be a funded trader. Right, if they're doing prop firm shit, right, which they probably are, right? So they want to be a funded trader. What are you doing at the moment to be a funded trader? Situation.

Done.

Right. So what are you doing at the moment to— thing that you're here about. That's it. I mean, that's like the, the easiest possible way of doing it, and it's the most effective way of doing it.

Oh, so it's so like just— it's like just, hey, this is Hey, um, Matt, this is Chris here with XYZ Company. So you applied to, um, become a consistently profitable funded trader, is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

And then what are you doing at the moment to do that?

Okay. Oh, that's fucking— okay, so I'm overcomplicating. Okay.

Yeah, there you go. That's good. You good?

Yeah.

All right, sweet. I'm happy. Good to go. All right, who's next?

I had a question about people that are like canceling your service, like exit interviews basically. Do you run kind of a similar NEPQ process, like that same style of flow when you're trying to save them, or how do you typically deal with that?

I mean, we don't. Like, we just, we just try and make sure that—

that's probably an easier way to go about it.

I mean, I didn't even know any PQ was when I had gyms, but like, yeah, um, uh, we just went pure logic and then had a deal, right? Gotcha. Like, have some sort of deal, like, hey, like, why are you leaving? You know what I mean? You still want to achieve these things? Yeah, sweet. Okay, cool. If we offered you this, like, would that help? Do you know what I mean? Like, essentially, like, you're, you're, it's, you know, you can objection handle, but that's really about it. Like, there are certain points where, like, you have to attack things with pure logic at some stage and then go with the deal. You know what I mean? Like, we do that at Dialer when people leave, right? And it's like, we just basically go like, hey, why'd you— because we want the feedback, really. It's like, hey, like, why'd you, like, you know, why'd you leave? Okay, cool. I mean, even getting an exit interview, the person is like somewhat open to staying or they're super angry, right? It's one of the two, you know what I mean? So like you're either going to get yelled at or probably be able to save them. Gotcha. But I would say like it's, it's sort of somewhat— if you can get a third of the people who are not yelling at you, I think you're probably doing pretty well.

Yeah, right.

But the people who yell at you, obviously they just want to air their grievances, and you go, all right, cool, man, high five, you're always welcome back. Like, that's kind of, you know, the whole point is to leave the door open in business, right? So you don't have a bad— a bad— like, you don't create bad relationships moving forward.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, one of the biggest reasons they're leaving is they're snowbirds, and it's a recurring membership for the most part. So I'm trying to figure out how to— I mean, I could just do a paid-in-full for the 3-4 months they're down. That's probably what I should do.

Yeah, 100%. If you know they're gonna leave, like, and then yeah, do that, and then just like, uh, you know, have it re-kickstart back when they come back up.

Yeah, just basically suspend them for that period of time and then kick it back on.

Yeah, and like pre, pre-do that at the beginning. Like, are you here for the snow season?

Yep.

Sweet.

All right, cool. Obviously, like I don't want to keep charging you. You're not here. When do you leave? When do you come back? And they go, sweet. And you go, you want to do that? Sweet. All right, cool. Because you can get the annual membership price. You're going to lock in, but I'm not going to charge you right now. Here, like, that'd be douchey.

Yeah, that makes sense.

I'd be like, and that's of course you want me to, like, no, no, that's cool. All right, cool, man. So you want to do that? Sweet. And if you do it like that, they'll probably be like, oh yeah, sweet, sounds good.

I think my problem that I shoot myself in the foot is I only do open-end, so it's month to month. So they're like, oh, I'll just cancel, I'll sign back up.

No, don't do that.

Yeah.

Open-ended is lame. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's good for like a drop sale, but it's not a good like overall strategy. It ends up being, it's like unlimited sessions. It's like, it's not a good strategy. You know? Because no one can use unlimited. So they're never getting the value that they're paying for. Is this how they feel? You know, if they come 5 days a week, oh, I'm just not getting the value. Shut the fuck up, retard. I've had that conversation 12,000 times. You come 5 days a week? Yeah, but it's unlimited. Well, how many times do you want to come? What the fuck? Yeah, you can do more, you fucking weirdo. Anyway, and then I made it like more expensive for less and nobody said it ever again. Yeah, bizarro. Yeah. I actually had like at one stage people locked into a specific time.

Oh, okay. So they couldn't book.

Then I came up with a genius model. I came up with a— I changed them from 45-minute sessions to 15 to 30, but then it was a warm-up, right? This is just as next level fucking big brain. I had an area that was all foam rollers and yoga mats with a TV that had a 15-minute warm-up on a loop. Okay, and then they would come in, and then people could be 5 minutes late, didn't matter. Everyone starts warming up in front of the TV, right? And then I had, um, so I had two— I had two classes going simultaneously technically, right? And, and then I had an A and a B station, right? So there was the A's and the B's, and it was 15— it was like three 15-minute slots. So they were still technically 45-minute sessions. But it was a 15-minute warm-up, 15 minutes on the A, 15 minutes on the B, right? And like, the A's was like, we had big squat racks, you know, yada yada, right? And then, so technically speaking, we had 3 classes going simultaneously, right? Whereas we could only have 2 before. And then if— no, nobody was ever late really, because if you're 5 minutes late to the 15-minute warm-up, it didn't really affect anybody because we weren't into like full squatting, because we would squat on cadences and stuff like that. That was fucking big brain. I like doubled the profitability of the business doing that.

Yeah, super smart. It's almost like a spillover area too, like you said, if they come early or late. That's nice.

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, big brain. Uh, okay, cool. Who's next? I've only got about like 12 more minutes left today, but you can't— for some reason school doesn't allow you to do 45-minute You can only do hour, half hour, which is retarded. You also can't start on the 15th. Why are they so restrictive? Anyway, I'll call her Mosey. All right, um, all right, who's next? Let's go.

All right, someone can interrupt me then if someone wants to bring it up. Um, man, follow the process. Can't reiterate that enough. Even I still have to go back to the training and It's been good, super helpful to have like a rock solid resource to go back. I had someone come in, hop on, didn't want to be off their phone. I said, hey, what's going on here? He essentially just hung up. I didn't have a word track for that. And that caught me off guard. So which led me kind of digging back around. Do you have a good word track for someone who is like, doesn't want to be participating in the call at all?

Like on an actual sales call, like I just wasn't interested.

Yeah. Executive, this is like executive level thing. He's allegedly a VP.

Allegedly. Um, I would just be like, oh, like, I mean, think about those. So one, you don't want to get too caught up on like weird circumstances, you know what I mean? Like, I've had that before and I just go, hey man, you all right? You busy? Like, it's a bad time?

Yeah, yeah, um, I'm just clicking around, I'm just doing other stuff.

Yeah, sweet. I'd be like, all right, well No, you know, I mean, I guess it depends the situation. That's totally dependent on how much you want the sale. Like, if I'm sitting there and I'm on with Cardone's, like, like, vice president, I'm like, oh, fuck it, whatever, I don't care. Yeah, I mean, yeah, if I'm on with like Joe Dirt's fucking head of marketing, I'm like, hey man, like, I, like, I gotta ask questions, we gotta talk about stuff, like I need, I need some interaction. If you just thought I should, like, it's fine, you don't have to do this. Okay, I mean, so it's going to be very subjective over like how much I give a fuck about that, you know what I mean? Um, like, I'm almost never on camera, right? Uh, but like for certain things I am. Um, but like I have people, like, I'll hop onto a sales call and they'll be like, oh, is your camera not working? I go, no, it's working fine, I just don't like being on camera. They go, oh, you need to be on camera. I go, no, I don't. And they just go, oh, okay. It's like, I just don't— I don't want to be on camera. Why are you making me be on camera? I don't want to. Like, what does it matter to you, motherfucker? Like, I don't care, right? So like, um, the world of your looks, Matt.

I can't believe you do that.

I know, I know. Well, you know, if they look directly at me, they might get a bit stunned. Um, I, I think— I'm not sure if Matt's on here. I'm not sure if he is. Matt sold me into my guitar program, and so I put him, I put him into this, and, uh, it's great. It's a great— it's a fucking great program. But when I hopped on, he was a bit like, it's like, hey, so the way that these calls go today, I was like, you right, buddy? It was fucking hilarious. I was like, you right, you watch my videos? He goes, yeah. I was like, don't worry, I'm gonna buy. You can't fuck this up. Just do your thing, just do your thing, pal, you'll be fine. It was funny. He's killing it since joining. Yeah, he's doing really well.

Such an outlier situation like this. You're such an outlier, so you cannot be a—

yeah, I was a lay down. Yeah, everyone, I was a lay down. And then I— and then I bought their their other fucking program that was like a— yeah, the owner reached out and I was like, yep, sweet. And then I bought it for my wife as well. I was like, let's go, let's buy everything. I like buying stuff. All right, cool.

What would you say for— like I said, anyone can interrupt me if they want. Well, I appreciate it. So just like if I didn't want the sale, which at the point where I was at, I was like, this guy's not paying it like he just doesn't care. So I didn't want it bad enough. For that guy. Um, for, for multi, multi-month sales process. So right now we're going through a deal. There's a, a guy who has the star effect. He's, he's pretty big in the industry, and I can't say his name, but he's a family office, and he's looking to acquire a few of the people that are working with one of his companies. He's been working with him for about 6 months. Or do you have anything— because it's, it's not— when you hop on a call with someone to do a deal and you want to buy their business, it's not like a, hey, let's 45-minute call, let's like talk about where you want to be. It is to an extent, but it's definitely an extended process. Do you have for ultra sophisticated, very long sales cycles, do you have any like, here's the cornerstones or milestones that you should be focusing on the most?

I mean, the big, like, I mean, that's basically all I do is like long cycle sophisticated sales these days. The key point is like, it's sort of like, as you have to be as relentless as you can be before becoming obnoxious, right? But you probably have to find out what obnoxious is. Right, like I'm selling— we have Cardone Maine, we have Cardone Ventures. I'm speaking to 10XL tomorrow, but Cardone Maine has like— is— has their proposal and they're like waiting to sign it. But it took me like probably 4 months to get their president onto a call, right? And I was like— they reached out to me, right? So like, like it took me months and I would like— and then from there they had the proposal. I reckon I emailed them 8, 10 times, called them a few times, texted a few times. I have my assistant reach out to them regularly. Like, they're signing, they're just waiting for their house to be built. Like, I don't know when their house is being rebuilt, but like, it's supposed to be sometime in the next week or so, right? So it's like, the first thing is like, I always try and like, once I get them on calls, I always try and book next steps on that call. I do not try and leave it to like an email. I'm always trying to go, okay, so next steps are, and then I want to control what they are, right? Because otherwise, like, you end up in the email chasing game, which you might end up in anyway, which is whatever., but like you just have to be very, very on top of it. But always try and dictate next steps, try and map out what the process looks like. So like having like a mirror board of like what your optimal or ideal process is. Generally speaking, you're gonna spend a lot more time in problem. If you're trying to sell a business, it really depends on the type of sale. Like there's a very big difference between like say distressed sales versus like, you know, like very successful, large, or like, am I trying to get in? Am I gonna like do— are we gonna do earnouts, right? Like, they're, they're very, very different strategies because you're essentially having very different value propositions for the person who owns the business, right? Like, if you try and buy a dialer with an earnout, I'd be like this, right? Like No, you give me $300 million and I'll never speak to you again, right? Like, I'm never speaking to you again. Like, I'm not doing it right now. I'll give you $1 billion if you do it right now. No, I don't want it. Just give me the $300 and I'm gone, right? Like, I don't care. I don't need to be a billionaire. I don't give a fuck. I just don't have to speak to people, you know? Like, that's, that's a real— like, so, but again, so like, you know, I've done things where like I've done like, uh, equity, like free equity before, like not for me, but for like other people and other businesses. And generally speaking, I really sort of put it around like I need to find out very, very specifically, like it's a sale, right? So it's like, what do they hate about the business is the biggest one. And then like, can we take that away from them? And like, I would anchor everything around like taking away the pain, right? And taking away the pain and exchanging with cash. Like, if I can take this pain away from you and give you money instead, would you like that? Most people are like, yes, Blackie, sure, because you could pay me and I can give you more pain. No, no, no. Okay, so I take pain, you get money. All right, cool, we're on the same page, you know. And then from there, map out your sales process with the mirror board. Be quite specific. Try and have like set timelines. Try and keep each call like no further than a week to 2 weeks out, except as soon as you get lawyers involved, and then it could be like a month out. Right, because like the lawyers will take a while. So, um, but they just— the best advice I can give you is track it, create an ideal, know what parts of the sale you're going to do at each phase, and then have like— and then try and stick to that. But then from there, map out like the next 3 or 4 sales that you do, map out how they actually went, right, in terms of like time frames, how many meetings, what happened on each meeting. And then from there, try and like amalgamate that process into like a more replicatable thing, right? But at the end of the day, mate, long sales cycles, to be successful in that realm is just like relentlessness. You just like, you can never be afraid of looking needy, desperate, because like, it, that's just not a thing. It's just be fucking relentless and be top of mind, and like, you'll probably win.

Who do you talk to, Ocean? You talk to the owner of the business, you talk to the lawyers or shit like this. Who do you talk to?

Uh, we usually don't get lawyers involved until like super late in the deal, until they're super convicted. Lawyers usually just— we have good attorneys that we'll end up talking with, but like most of the time it's just going to be an owner because they're the one making the decisions. They own the business. Uh, not all the time it's an operator. Sometimes it's an operator, sometimes it's not.

Yeah.

And we never— we don't do distressed buyouts. I used to do those. I don't do this anymore. Or they're too much of a pain.

Okay, okay. Because I'll DM you because I have like, I told you, I knew one of the luminaries at Skadden. He's a Jewish guy actually, one of my few Jewish friends in Paris, Pierre. He's even older than Matthew actually. And he gave me like some insight on that shit, but it's high level, right? He was dealing with lawyers and all this bullshit. And I have a guy who bought like small companies talking to owners. So I know by just through story and networking. I know what owners usually look for. Like if Mathieu was attached to Dallaire, which I know he's not, but if he was, sometimes the thought they have is like, is Ocean is going to fuck up my company?

Yes.

Right. You have that shit all the time.

So the reputation of the buyer is really paramount and you have to know who am I talking to and what do they want? If like there's good people with good reputation, like there's a company called Permanent Equity and their whole thesis is we buy forever. And so there's, they're willing, people are willing to sell their companies to Permanent Equity because they know they're going to take good care of it versus chop shop Joe that's going to gut their entire business.

Yeah, private equity, right? Warren and Charlie used to— because Warren was a fucking genius, he built up his reputation just on that. Warren was buying like 2 days, billion dollars company, and people know, knew that Warren had impeccable reputation. He wasn't going to fuck them up. Whatever.

All right, let's move on to another question.

Thank you.

Yeah. Everyone is so shy.

I'm trying not to come up with a stupid question.

Please don't. I think that's really—

Hey, Jeff, are you in Committed Coaches Slack?

I was. I'm not connected to it anymore, no. I'm gonna bring— they're gonna bring me back in May. Why?

Ah, because my Slack— my, um, I'm locked out of my, um, my thing because I'm supposed to be running a session.

I can contact Ryan if you want. And, uh, I think he's—

yeah, it's a good idea. Is Ryan still in there?

Yeah, I believe—

no, Ryan left, didn't he?

Really? I don't know, a lot of things change over there. I'll contact him and, uh and get back to you.

Sorry, I've just contacted him. Okay, anyway, like, next, next question. Fuck it, if I can't log in, I can't log in. Let's keep going.

What was the moment— it's me, it's my, it's me, it's my turn. Okay, um, what was the moment in your in your sales career where, I think you mentioned to me already, but I want the boys also to hear it, where it clicked in your mind, you're like, oh, okay, okay, yeah, that's what's going on in sales. Like, what was the moment for you?

Uh, I mean, the answer that no one wants to hear is I was probably 6 years in, 7 years in.

Yeah, because you already saw, you, you already solved, because we discussed that, you and me. Objection handling. You're the only one actually, really. So you solved that shit?

No, not by then. No, I wouldn't say by then. I was probably pretty good at it. So like, I think I'd been doing sales for probably, I wanna say, 6 years. I think I was like, I was okay at it. I was like moderately successful, fairly good. But most of it was like, there wasn't much. Most of it was like internal processes. Like there wasn't much, there wasn't like a ton of structure. It was just very like ask questions, pitch, objection, handle. Like that was sort of, yeah, that was sort of like the thing. Then from there, when I learned NEPQ, like I would say, like once I had a formulated script and I saw exactly how the call was supposed to go, right? And then I was like, oh, okay, this makes a lot more sense. And then it was like a bit of a light bulb moment of like, oh, this is a process. I do things at this time. And then I was able to kind of go back retrospectively look at all the things that I was doing that worked and didn't work, and I was able to apply them to a process and like a set structure, right? And then like, that was, that was extremely helpful. I mean, yeah. So yeah. So like I would say, and then like from there, like I pretty much like tripled my close rate.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think the key is like people are in a hurry. They're in too much of a hurry, right, to like get good, not realizing that it's probably going to take you 3, 4 years. I would say, I would say if you're not willing to give sales 3 or 4 years, you should probably quit. And it's probably a reasonable and accurate like assumption. I think if you think you're going to get good in a year, you're fucking Unless you have like, I would say if you've got 140+ IQ, you can probably get good at it in a year. I think like that's, that's reasonable. 140+ IQ and you like dedicate and you study it like to where you're looking to find the answers, which like you would, that I think that you'll be fine. In a year you'll probably be able to be like a top runner. All right. Without that, I think it's probably going to take you a lot longer. Especially like with the amount of volume of sales training. Like there really wasn't much sales training. There was like Straight Line and Dan Lok when I was sort of, before, I mean, when I was first in sales, there was like Straight Line and that's about it. When I was, I did a course from a guy called Thor the Sales Warrior, which was the most aggressive founder-led sales you've ever fucking seen, which was fun. It was just, it was very aggressive. Like no hanging up whatsoever. Like you just, like people told you to fuck off and like that was a good thing. And then so like I think, you know, aggressive sales is better than non-aggressive sales when you first start out because it's an easier default to have. Like, so if you can be willing to get told to fuck off a lot, that's probably like a better way to be rather than someone who comes in like super neutral, laid back, which is I think the biggest problem with any PQ is that like people tend to adapt all of it, but like they don't realize that they're actually pussies as well. And so like it makes them into like like a mega pussy when they come to selling. It just makes them overly neutral, too leaned out, and then like they lose all authority and conviction in their voice.

Yeah.

Um, and, uh, yeah, sorry, 2 seconds.

Um, because the logical consensus you mentioned to me yesterday, right, and on your reel, I think that's what really in EPQ, um, that's not the only thing, but that's really what it brought to you. Like, people logically keep saying, I want to do this, I want to do this now, I want to do this because of this. I have this problem. Therefore, all those leverage at the end of the call, that's when your close rate completely changed because like people kept saying to you, if you do it right, obviously, that they have to do the thing.

I'm just trying to fix this thing. Yeah. So like, I think what people don't realize is that like, they don't really like the thing is, if you want to get good at sales, you have to become somewhat obsessed and very interested in it. Right? This is like, if you actually want to get good, you know what I mean? You have to want to understand the mechanisms behind what's happening. If you want to be okay, it's not really a big deal. But I think a lot of people want to be like, I want to make $100K a month. It's like, probably not gonna happen, but, um, like, it could. I'm saying it can't, but like, you have to become obsessed with it, right? Like, like properly obsessed in order to be very, very good. Like, it has to intrigue you to the point where you are willing to like sort of study it non-stop. It's the same as anyone who's like really good at guitar or really good at anything, right? They become so interested in it that they obsess. That's why men become very, very good at very particular things, because men obsess more than women do, right, about things, right? You know what I mean? And so like, that's, that's, that's a prerequisite for being exceptional. Like it just is. So if you want to be really good in the first 2 years of being in sales, you— if you're not obsessed with it, you just have to relinquish yourself to that. That is not going to happen. Like, if you don't think about it, and if you're not fascinated by the fact— like, actually fascinated by the fact that you can change the inflection of your voice and make someone think something differently— if you don't find that fascinating, you know, are you ever going to be that good? Probably not. I know it's probably like— because I find it fucking— I find it fascinating. Like, that is so incredibly interesting to me that I was willing to then study it for hours. Oh, what happens if I do this? What happens if I do this? And then that's how I made courses, right? It's like by just being very, very curious because you find it interesting.

Yes.

No, but it's— but you don't— you don't have to, right? If you're really interested in something, then studying it and getting good at it is fun.

Yeah, so that's— yeah, that's what you mean, right?

Like, if you love golf, going to the driving range is fun.

Yeah.

If you love the guitar, doing scales is fun. If you're only trying to do the guitar so that you can impress somebody, like, you're not going to do scales.

Yeah, also take no effort.

You just not going to. Yeah, exactly. So, like, you know, and the good thing about courses is that you can shortcut it without the requirement to be obsessed with it. Do you know what I mean? And so like, you can still be good, you can still get really good because like there are courses that shortcut stuff. But if you want to have a really deep understanding, get really good at it, then the obsession is a requirement, you know? And so like, I, I just, I just found sales fascinating. And like, you know, there's a, there's this thing with like with ADHD, um, if, if you like, you're almost guaranteed to be a millionaire if you can figure out how to monetize your high focuses. If your dopamine addiction comes from making money, then like you're going to make a lot of money. Money time, you know what I mean? And so like, I— that's like, for me, like I'm really good at making money, um, and that's— but that's a skill set that you can develop over time, is the— is like, how do you figure out how to make money, you know what I mean? And like sales is a phenomenal way of doing that. It's a really, really good foundation. So is marketing. Marketing is equally as interesting as sales. I would say I like marketing more than sales. I would say I'm a better marketer than I am salesperson. If I had to pick one, it's like my better skill set, it would definitely be marketing. So like, again, it's very interesting. You can like have a whole series and systems and you can change colors and you can change very small variables and you can make people act differently. And so like there are lots of different communication styles. Like I've never gone into NLP. Like I don't, I don't find NLP very interesting. I find it to be kind of a weird pseudoscience kind of thing. But like if it is, I don't know. If it isn't, whatever. I don't really care. However, there are a lot of things like in like debate strategy I find really, really— I was on debate team when I was in high school, right? So if you guys want to learn like how to objection handle, Study debate.

Don't tell them.

Like, debating is just objection handling. So like, if you have a look at like my objection handling process, it's just a series of like debate strategies, presuppositions, right? Logic traps. But then the difference in debate is you're not looking to change anyone's mind. You're looking to make someone look stupid, right? But with sales, you want to change their mind, right? So what you have to do is you then, you then have to like figure out how to make them ask the questions, right? And kind of go from there. So like it's a more difficult thing because you want them to change their own mind, right? But debate strategy is like high-level objection handling. The funny thing is the guys teaching it like have just stole a bunch of my stuff and they don't actually know what they're doing, which is funny to watch them explain it because their explanations are like fugazi, you know what I mean? But like, if you look at like, uh, Andrew Wilson, for example, is fantastic at debate. If you want to have a look at his stuff, like, you can see the logic traps being set in real time. And like, he would be a master of objection handling. I don't think he'd make many sales, but he would make people feel very stupid, right? So if you can then take that and then get them to start asking themselves some of those questions, but you lay out that those presuppositional arguments, which is like the— you guys know how I talk about the scaffolding and like the bumper rails, right? I go like, hey, you want to put the bumper rails up and you want to keep them within a certain thing. That scaffolding, right, like that is like the set of presuppositions, right? And then the— like people talk about like frames Right? I was writing this down yesterday.

It's very hard to articulate actually when you discover all that shit, like the deductive reasoning, the critical thinking, the premises and presupposition. But if you, if it click, you can read from anything essentially.

Because yeah, because like if you have a look at like the objection handling matrix, like has anyone here ever heard of like the laws of logic?

Right.

Okay. So there are 3 laws of logic. The first is like the law of identity. The law of identity is A has to equal A. 1 has to equal 1. Right. So it's like, um, expensive, like, like each thing has to be itself. Otherwise you can go into relativism. Right. And relativism is like a really kind of like weird place to get to where like there's, for example, you could argue there's no morality. Right. If you don't believe— if you don't— the law of logic is 1 equals 1, A equals A. When I say it's expensive, it has to be like expensive, right? So it can't be like it has to be defined, right? And then it has to equal that. Right. Makes sense. I was writing all this stuff down like yesterday. So the key thing is like when you're in objection handling or in a debate, the clarification of terms becomes very important. Otherwise, like you immediately run into an issue where that law of identity isn't followed, right? Which is why when you guys hear, it's like I probe a lot and I'm like, I'm always asking, what does that mean? What do you mean by that? Like, I can never assume because if you— if like, if I say I want to get fit and we don't like establish exactly what fit means, then like there's, there's no definition for it and therefore like we can't be held to it, right? Because it's gonna get into like, you have to do that as a foundational in order to go into the next one, which is like, there's a law of non-contradiction. So, um, A, like, A has to equal A. It cannot also not be A, right? So it's like, I want to grow my business, but I don't want to invest anything into growth. Okay, like, that's a contradiction of term. So it's like, if we define growth I want to grow my business, define what that means. And then like, you can't then say, I don't want to invest anything into growth. Like, it doesn't make any sense. That would be a contradiction of term, right? Because growth requires investment. Even like a seed requires soil, nutrient, and water and sunlight. It requires investment of resource into it in order for it to grow. There's not a single thing that just grows for no reason, right? So, so it's like Does that make sense? The last one is the law of the excluded middle, right? Um, yeah, which is like you cannot have a middle ground. You either want to grow your business and therefore you invest it, or you don't. There is no middle because it's not logical. You can't both want to grow your business and not want to invest in it, right? So logically that makes no sense. Which is why, like, when I'm explaining things to you guys, like, I'll say, like, logically you can't really do that, right? And so, like, if you understand the grounding of where all this stuff comes from, then, like, you can go, oh, that makes no fucking sense. And then you can go, okay, let me define the term. Okay, sorry, you said growth. What did you mean by that? All right, cool. And then you can go, all right, well, if we want to grow, we have to invest in growth, right? Yes. Okay, so do you want to invest in growth? No. Then you do not want to grow. No, I do. No, you don't, because you're living in the law of the excluded middle. There's no logic there. It doesn't exist. You can't both— you can't have both things at once. Right. And so, like, that's why you have to define terms That's why you have to sort of like call out contradicting beliefs, right? And then you have to sort of like force people into understanding and having clarity, right? Over what things they're picking, which is just objection handling.

Yeah.

Right. So it's much easier when you understand like the communication strategies that are being employed instead of trying to memorize word tracks. Yeah, that's why like word tracks are like sort of semi-nonsense. It's like, this is the thing that works in this scenario. But like understanding that, like learning that is good when you're a brand new beginner because like, you know what I mean? But learning the actual like, like argument strategies or like communication strategies that are being employed and having a good understanding for that makes it way easier to on the fly develop your own. That's why like all those analogies and word tracks, I just like, I just made them up. You know what I mean? And people teach them and they think like when I say like, hey, that makes sense because we want to make decisions based off our perspective, people think that's a mindset thing. No, it's a presuppositional argument.

Yeah.

Right?

Because the first presupposition is I need you to agree that like perspective shapes decision-making. The second one that I then have to get you to agree is that you need to look at it from a different angle to get a different outcome. Like, you, like, you need to actually change your angle, right? So angle equals outcome. Change angle equals different outcome. Do you want a different outcome?

Yes.

Then logically, what must you do? Yeah, yeah, change your perspective, right? And people hate being logically inconsistent. They hate it. That's why debates end in people fucking storming out. Yeah, right, because they can't ever go, oh, you know what, it's a good point, I was wrong. They can't do it, right? So do you understand? Like, so now it's like, oh, argument one, I cannot move on until I get this agreement, otherwise the rest of it is complete gobbledygook, right? Then I comment it from the next one and I go, okay, now that we've agreed upon this Do you want a different outcome? Yes. Then we must what? Change our perspective.

Yeah.

Okay, cool. What is the perspective of the person who's already won? What actions will they take? They will take these actions. Okay, if the person who wins takes this action, what action should you take? The actions of the winner. And what are they? This. Do you want to be a winner? Yes. Then what must you do? Take said action. How would you like to proceed? Right? So like, it's not— you don't have to go into like fucking someone's relationship with their father and like their level of self-hatred, right? Like, it doesn't have to be that. Like, that's not what I'm doing, you know what I mean? So when you listen back and when you actually go through the material, like, look for the underlying principles of what's happening. Because what the retards teach on Instagram, like, that's not what's really going on. They just don't understand it, right? Which is fine, whatever. I didn't teach them. So like, they're just seeing the outcome of it. So, so it's like, this is like the foundations of being really, really good at like objection handling. And like specifically, I might do a video on it. I might do a course on it. I might do it. I might— I was thinking about, do you get my message about doing debate club?

Oh, of course, my brother. You're gonna do this course, brother, because, uh, this is the key to objection handling. When I sidequest, I discovered that shit.

Did you guys be keen if we did a debate club and every— and like, you have to sign up for it? It's not gonna be anything like paid, but it would be like, go sign up for it. You gotta pick— you might have to defend positions that you don't agree with. Like, it might have to be like, why Joe Biden was the greatest president of all time. Do you mean like, that might be like your— but then it'd be like a fight. You have to prepare for it, 5 minutes either side. Right? And then from there, like, one rebuttal of like, say, 3 to 4 minutes, and then like move on to the next, right? Do you know what I mean? But that could be— think like from a, from like a training perspective, going away, researching, and then formulating arguments. Do you know what I mean? And you can even do it like— we could do it for your offer. So like one person is like, the best way to make a side hustle is is AI fucking trading. The other best way is like fucking Amazon. Do you know what I mean? And then from there, like, you could debate, right? And then we'll crown a winner and just boo the loser.

Boo!

Essentially, that can actually be first objection.

You realize, for example, the partner, the premise they must be into to believe they have to talk to their partner is that if I have to invest money, I had to talk to my partner because it's also a decision maker. The responsibility is also on them. The premise that has to change is that that's not the case. They are not responsible for you making more money or for you losing the weight or whatever. And, um, when I said, Chris, that shit, that's the moment I realized, talking to Lars, I was like, that's why they close so high. Because logically, at the end, especially people that are in fear, right? They're in fear. So if you have conviction, you also have leverage on that. Logically, they're like, oh yeah, you're right. Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, yeah. Uh, all right team, I got time for one more question, then I gotta bounce out.

I've got one.

It was a bit fucking left field, but yeah, go for it. If you kind of relate to what you were saying, you know when you said, um, like study the underlying principles behind it, um, is there, I don't know, like a book or like someone Like, where did you kind of learn all of this? Um, there's a great course, it's really cheap, it's called, uh, Charisma on Command, that has a lot of like really, really, um, like sort of communication strategy stuff, like how to defuse angry people, you know what I mean? Like, it's actually really, really good. It's not sales related, but it's sort of like, it's how to get what you want out of conversations essentially, which is sales, but it's not. It's sort of like how to walk into a room, dominate the room, You know what I mean? Like all these kind of things, but it's like, it's called Charisma Arcoman. It's really good. It's cheap. It's definitely worth doing. The guy has a great YouTube channel as well. The other thing is like debate strategy. There's a lot of different debate stuff that you can look up. Like Harvard Online Business School even has a course on debating, which is pretty good. There's tons of shit on YouTube though. I would say also like, you know, old school logic stuff. I think like Plato, Aristotle did a lot of stuff on logic. Um, uh, but yeah, sort of pick one subject and sort of go with it. So like, if you want to go into— like, they're all sort of coming from very similar things. It's all like psychologically based because people are very heavily predisposed, predisposed to acting in certain ways when they're given certain stimulus, right? You know what I mean? Like, I give the rat cocaine, it wants cocaine. Right, you know what I mean? I give you compliments at the right time, and like, I can, you know, you probably heard breadcrumbing, right, is a thing that toxic people do. But you can breadcrumb people into like requiring you for dopamine, right? So you can start a cult, I mean, like there are lots of like, like psychological strategies that work very, very well and are very proven on people. Um, I would say the most useful is debate. Andrew Wilson is a great debater. You can go and watch him do stuff. But if you just— there's an Asian guy, he's Aussie dude, he's Asian. He was like the head of, um, Harvard's debate. He has a— he has like an hour and a half course on YouTube that you can watch for free on debate strategy, and it's fucking fascinating. I've watched it. So, um, go there, watch it. And then Charisma on Command is fantastic.

All right, thanks.

I think it's like $97 or something. It's worth it. Yeah, cool.

Check it out.

Yeah.

All right, sweet to the beat, guys. Uh, all right, I'll see you guys in a bit for, uh, Tinfoil Hat Thursday, right? It's Jeff. Are you, are you, are you gonna be doing that one? He's gone. That doesn't look good. All right, bye.