Meet The Secret $100M CMO Behind Cole Gordon

We generated 50,000 leads, spent a million dollars on advertising and then we ended up with a lead to sale of 0.5%.

10% increase in churn rate. Maybe that's a 10% decrease in ad spend and that's $4,500 a day. You multiply that by 30 days, it's massive. $100,000 a month plus.

Why are we generating all these leads? Surely we don't need 50,000 to generate 1400 sales calls. You shouldn't be maxing out your lead gen. Take that money then put it into giving value to people and that will make your business last a lot longer.

One of the best performing campaigns we have from a CPA pers is literally just retargeting YouTube. We have very dialed in ad tracking and platform tracking.

Like our top rep was 15x. So I put a hundred thousand dollars into you, you gimme fucking 1.5 back. Hey guys, what's up? Welcome to episode of Coffees for Closers. Today got a special guest, Spencer Van. So Spencer is a world renowned marketer extraordinaire, CMO for Cole Gordon's closures IO which is known for their. Known for their being adequate at marketing I would say.

Right, right. And actually I want to add in too. I've come to the dark side. I'm a marketer but I'm on the Coffee for Closer podcast so I'm officially.

Exactly. We can't make fun of the blue haired marketing autists right on this one. And then you've got a really cool software so sales kick which I got introduced to like very recently and it's pretty cool man. So I wanted you to come on, talk about it, but sort of talk about, you know, obviously you're a marketer and you've been working in this high ticket space for a long time and now you've developed a sales tool which is designed to sort of, probably, if I can think probably eliminate the frustration of inept sales ops ruining your marketing. I would assume that's where it came from.

Pretty much, yeah. So to give the very short story, before I worked with Cole I had a biz op, scaled that to about 850900 grand a month. We had teams, very nice sales reps, eight closures, eight centers and the bane of my existence was show rates. It was like I looked at my, my marketing stats and you know, it's like it's always the thing where like one closer has a good show rate, everybody else sucks and try to figure out what they're doing and it's just like the bane of my existence for like the better part of, you know, nine months to 12 months. And so I spent a bunch of time, you know, consulting the experts, read a bunch of scientific studies. I just did a bunch of tremendous amount of research on chore rates and basically figured out a handful of different things that, that you could do to improve them. And at the time that meant hiring a bunch of people and doing a bunch of manual processes. And then, you know, if everyone remembers, end of 2022, ChatGPT came out and I said, man, I don't need all these people anymore. I can just. These people, these people, dude. So, so anyway, so that, that was kind of the start of sales kick. And you know, here we are now about 18 months into, into development and the rest, the rest is history.

That's cool, man. Like, it's very similar, you know, with dialer. The reason why I started it was because I was just absolutely so frustrated with the fact that we were getting, you know, it's funny, I did a post yesterday and I remember there was one month and I have all the data. That's why I know it's true. We generated 50,000 leads, spent a million dollars on advertising. 20,000 of those leads were buyer leads. And from that we had an 8% contact rate. And then we ended up, which was like, you know, we like, we ended up with a lead to sale of 0.5%, right? So like 250, 260 sales, coaching sales still like good money, good, like, you know, roas of like three type thing, right? But it was 0.5%. And I just remember going like, why are we generating all these leads? Surely we don't need 50,000 to generate 1400 sales calls. Because we had 1400 sales calls six months ago and we had 20,000 leads. They were like, nah, branding. And then I was like, I mean, okay, like I don't agree, but you guys do your thing. I'm the CEO. I'm not here to fuck with everything. Do you know what I mean? And so it was like, I was like, seems stupid, but whatever. And it was just because we had like 1% pickup rates and then you've got show rate issues and you've got people not booking themselves through funnel and it's like you're just. We had 55 people out there outbounding like crazy. And the funny thing was I had looked at the data of one of the teams yesterday. They had more conversations in 14 days than what we would have in a month. And they have 12 people and 1600 leads and we had 55 people and they have an 80% contact rate. So they speak to 80, 81.2% of their leads this month. They've spoken to.

Wow.

Right. And like, it just means you don't have to spend as much money. Same with show rates. Right. Same with like the little things in that sales ops is like, you're. Everyone's so happy to throw $150,001 million at Mark Zuckerberg.

Yeah.

But they don't want to spend two grand on a software that increases their show. Even if it increased it by 4%, they would get such a monumental ROI from that. But people are stupid. And you know, like, it's really interesting to watch. Like people's like, it's quite interesting watching like what, what price tolerances are and sort of like what perceived value is. But like, if, you know, if I could put 10% onto your show rate, the, the ROI. Like, even if you. If you pay me 10 grand a month and I increase your show by 10% and that's all I did, like, you should keep paying me that money.

Yeah, 100%. It's so funny because, you know, a lot of times. Well, this. Okay, let me just say this first one thing that hopefully this is valuable for everyone. Listening that I was in an Alex Becker SaaS mastermind a long time ago, and this is part of what inspired the idea for sales Kick was in every type of business model. And it sounds like you kind of have the same general thinking too is every single business model, there's all these little holes where people just throwing like they're just burning money, you know, for Becker, it was ad tracking. For me, it's sure right for you, it's obviously, you know, pickup rate and contact rate. And if you can build something where, you know, again, even if it's a 10% improvement, that is going to be monumentally valuable for a company that's doing a couple hundred grand a month, 300 grand a month, 400 grand a month, 500 grand a month. And those are the companies that don't churn. Those are the companies that stick around forever. They're great clients. They give you a bunch of referrals. And yeah, obviously, you know, I don't think either of our softwares are ten grand a month. I guess depends on how big the company is. But even if it was, you know, it's like, man, like that the ROI on a 10 increase insure rate is just insane. Like, it's. Yeah, yeah.

So like there's roi outside of roi, meaning that like you just don't burn through your audiences as fast because you don't need as many leads. Like, you shouldn't be maxing out your lead gen. If you are, you're just gonna have to like try and reinvent shit all the time. And then, you know, take that money that you could be spending on lead gen now that you have a higher show rate and put it into like, you know, giving value to people and that will make your business last a lot longer.

Yeah, well, and it's like I can tell you from, you know, everything I'm doing with Cole at one point, we're spending like $45,000 a day on ads and pretty hard to maintain good ad metrics. And you're spending $45,000 a day. It really is. Yeah.

I'm gonna find ways to. You gotta. Where do you put it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to make a tremendous amount of creatives all the time. Like my full time job was just like, I have to make, you know, 200 ads this week. How are we gonna do that? I have a team of people to help me. But you know, you start to think through like how much of a, how big of a task that really is. And it's like, man, like, dude, at that scale. Yeah. A 10% increase insure rate, maybe that, that's a 10% decrease in ad spend and that's 4,000, $4,500 a day. I mean, you multiply that by 30 days, it's massive. It's $100,000 a month plus, you know. Yeah, exactly. Added directly to the bottom line. And so it, yeah, there's, there's so much opportunity I think right now, and especially too one of my theories on the current market. I'm actually curious to hear your thoughts. I think we've shifted, if you're familiar with like the stock trading Fear greed index, I think we shifted from a greed based market to a fear based market. Not just in the stock world, but in just the economy as a whole. Yeah, I think there's a lot of uncertainty. And what's been really interesting is over the last few years there's been a lot of, you know, info folks, coaches, consultants, agencies, et cetera that have kind of popped up and they're, you know, their, their, their skill set of marketing or getting customers is all around direct based advertising. It's all like, hey, here's our, here, here's what we can do. And we guarantee it with some ridiculous guarantee. And there's no testimonials or very few. You know, hopefully there's some. Right. But most times, how dare you, sir?

How dare you.

And then like, we're just gonna sell it to you for 12 grand. And what, what my theory is here is that that's not that that's gonna ever go away because if you have a lot of proof and all that, it's not gonna go away, but it is gonna get harder because people are just more, there's more uncertainty and which makes, you know, to circle back to what we're talking about earlier, that makes what we do even more important. Because, man, if it gets harder, if you have to be better at, you know, indirect marketing, really building, you know, momentum through, through your ads and all that, people don't have that skillset. They're going to need more optimization on the later parts of the funnel, whether it be a dialer or sales kick or whatever.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think, you know, I get an opportunity because I still do some consulting and stuff like that here and there. I, I'm, I'm getting rid of it like, because I just, I'm honestly sick of telling people what to do and having them not do it. Like, I just like, mate, go do this. You need to invest in like this software. You need to optimize here. You need to do some content. You need to get some top of funnel going. Like you're doing one avenue of marketing. Like, that's a tremendous risk. What if this happens? Like, go diversify here. Be willing to like not have a huge ROI for three or four months on it. Like, think longer term. Go. Like, yeah, but like, how do I fucking shut up. I don't care. Like, do what you want, mate. I don't care if you do it. Just fucking pay your bill and shut up. Like it's, it's frustrating to watch like when people are so like, how do I get the instant roi? Because I feel like that's a, that is what I see is like what's caused a lot of this and why a lot of businesses are struggling is because they refuse to do anything that is not instantaneous gratification. And that is a really dangerous cycle to be in as a business owner or as someone like that. Because you are constantly trying to like just get the most out of everything. And if, if you try and get 100% out of everything, you just, you're going to redline not only your team, but also your audience really fast. And that's why the people with personal brands like Destroy. Yeah, like you know, whether it's personal brand or whether it's a brand brand. You know, I mean, if that, if there's trust and there's like value out there in the marketplace, like, have you. Have you seen much of a difference since, like Cole started going a bit more harder on sort of, you know, YouTube and like, value and stuff like that? Have you seen guys seen it, like an increase or like, what have you noticed?

No, we've definitely seen an increase. And, you know, this is kind of a more higher level tip. But we have really, really. Obviously, you know, we've scaled up pretty far. We have very dialed in ad tracking and platform tracking. What's been really interesting to see is even though we obviously have links to book calls and all that on the YouTube videos, it. There's been. You can. It's hard to correlate this exactly, obviously, but there's been a noticeable 10, 15% performance bump from even our Facebook and Instagram ads, even as cold posts on, on YouTube. And it's like, it makes sense. It's like if you think about the buying behavior of someone, it's like they watch a couple YouTube videos, like, oh, this guy's pretty cool. Maybe they book a call right there, maybe they don't. Then they go and they like check out Instagram, they check out Facebook, whatever it is, and then two days later they get hit with an ad and then they're like, oh, you know, I should, you know, then the ads designed obviously get to the click, so they're much more likely to do it at that point. Yeah, and so we've seen, we've seen an increase there in terms of performance. And then obviously, I mean, dude, like, I mean, it's just, it's like the basic stuff that's the nice thing about the personal branding stuff is like with. With true, like cold direct response. Dude, you got to reinvent the wheel. Every six to nine months, like, you have to start have a different message.

You got to really do some.

You got to reinvent the wheel. With personal branding, it's like, dude, like with Cole stuff, one of the best performing campaigns we have from a CPA perspective is literally just retargeting YouTube, like, meaning YouTube subscribers and people watch it. I mean, it's like super simple. It's like anyone and their mom could do that. And it just cleans up, you know? I guess. Yeah.

Well, it's funny, right? I remember I was running, helping run this offer for like a year and a half, right? And it was kind of like the business owner didn't really want to do anything. Nice guy. Didn't want to do anything. So I was like, yeah, cool man. Like, just don't ask us to grow. Then like sit back play golf all day, happy with that. But don't ask us to grow, you know. And he was like, okay, cool. So we're like 450amonth, every month. 60,000 AD spend. Pretty fucking solid band, right? Like we're doing the thing. Close rate was like 45%. It was a good offer. And then, and then it was like I remember helping on a call once. They're like, oh, all the best leads are coming from the website. So we're going to redirect ads to the, like to the website. I was like, no, we're not. I was like, we're definitely not doing that. Like, oh no. But the data says I go, no, no, no. They end up at the website, mate. Like they're not like, they're, they're not just like searching you on the Google machine and then like coming to a website and deciding to buy. They're ending up there. So we're not doing any of that. Somebody actually bought that company and then decided that they knew better than me in terms of how to market it. So I quit and they went to 60k a month within 3 months.

It was impressive, unfortunately. Sounds about right.

It was impressive. I was like, well done. It's like that's actually. I remember having a conversation with a guy and he's like, oh, we're going to change it into like a front end, like E. Comm. Style, like low ticket offer. And then we're going to. I was like, oh, that won't work, mate. Like that's, that's not going to happen here.

Where do you think, where do you think that comes from? Because it's like almost like the ability to think through the customer journey is just like some people have it, some people don't. Like is that. I mean it's a skill I'm sure you could learn. But does that just come from experience or does that come from just like people being silly? Like where do you think that.

I think it comes from seeing a lot of different things. Like, you know, you especially like because you're running a big organization, but also like Cole's quite involved in lots of organizations and your clients and your. So you have to sit there and I'm sure you probably help problem solving some of the clients. Stuff like that. You sort of see a lot of like longer term attribution cycles and it's like, oh, and when you're spending your own money, it tends to, you know, especially because you ran your own bizarre. When you spend your own money, you, you gain some insight that I think you, you can't get when you're spending somebody else's money. And so, you know, I think you look at longer term attribution, then you just use common sense and go, well, like if, if all these things and all these buying behaviors are happening, like the average person doesn't just like, I know, like I'm a high quality buyer. So it's like, oh, I will definitely go to the website. Like, I would definitely check that out and that's probably where I'll do the opt in, but I'll see the ads first. But the chances of me opting in from an ad is low. Like I might opt in, but I probably won't book a call. I'll see what the emails are like, have a look at it, go check out the website and then like book a call from there. And so that it just sort of makes sense as a buying journey. And if you have like a lot of the tracking put in as well, you can just sort of see it. But you have to look at things over a long enough time horizon. Right. Whereas a lot of people are looking at like, you know, the cost of the lead in Facebook and then they're, they're looking at like, oh, I'm getting free leads on the website. Let's fuck it. It's like, man, you know, that's true. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's, it's sort of, it's, it's, it's very interesting and I think marketing is more interesting than sales in a lot of ways. I think like marketing, I always say marketing is more important than sales.

Be careful, man. We're on the coffees for closer.

I know, I know. Well, you know, salespeople are sort of general morons and you know, who don't work very hard. Like, I believe that to the core of me. That's why, like, it's not that difficult to be a top 1% rep. You just sort of have to work eight hours a day and you'll probably be the best person on the team because salespeople just generally don't work very hard and the ones that do are really obvious, you know, and you don't even have to be good. Like you don't have to do sales training and do all that kind of stuff to be a successful rep. You just have to like try and Then you'll probably be okay, like ask for a referral, do a follow up. Like you'd be fine. Um, but, and like, but like marketing. If you don't have marketing, I don't care how good your sales team is, you know, and the goal is to have marketing so good your sales team can suck and still be successful. Like that's kind of the goal. Um, and I think that marketing sales processes should bend to the marketing. And that's really important because if you do it the other way around, you end up with a massively increasing cpa. And it's. I see it a lot. You've probably seen it a lot too. Especially with sales kit going into places where they've created processes that, that are designed to like Molly coddle the sales team. And they're taking feedback from setters. The amount of teams that take feedback from setters is fucking wild. I'm like, this person's retarded.

Like, why are you listening?

Like they're 22 years old and they've been doing this for a week and you're letting them dictate like front end things. Like this is crazy. Like look at long term, look at data, make decisions, make small changes. Um, but like if, if you, if you don't use a marketing first approach, you're. You're going to end up with a sales team that is lazy, stupid, with a very high close rate and an extremely high cpa. Like that's just what will happen.

You have to like, I'll just rip a couple horror stories.

Yeah.

Client that their sure rate was like abysmal. Like it was like 10% and I'm just like, wow, what? Like this doesn't even make sense.

Additive measures just constantly or some.

Was it like, well yeah, so, so like. And you know, I'm doing things. It's helping a little bit. But it's like normally when we plug in our stuff, we. Especially if it's a shirt that's that bad, we see like a noticeable spike. You know, it's like, yeah, overnight. You know what I mean? And that was kind of. It was getting better, but it wasn't like the spike. And so I was like, man, this is so weird. And so I took like this is when we were kind of early in beta. So I just like took, you know, like an hour. And I was like, hey, like can I just jump on with like the sales manager just like run through, like just see their process on that. Well, what the sales manager had made the policy was that anyone who shows up To a call but leaves in the first five minutes is considered a notion. And so what all the rep, we were running through sales calls, all of the reps, they would get on a call, they'd be like, and this is for like a, it was a high ticket, but it was like an in person location they had to go to. I was like in the, in the medical field. And so what all these people would do is the prospect would show up, the sales would be like, hey, it's $15,000 and the nearest location to you is a six hour flight. Do you want to do this? And they would be like, no, okay. And then hang out the phone. Oh, that's an osha like, dude, what are we doing? What is this? You know? So that was probably the most extreme example of what you just said. That's crazy, dude. That was crazy. Another one that, and this is a good, this is a good advertisement for dialer IO is there was this setter manager that, and this was for a company that they were not a sales kit client, but they were more kind of involved with, with Kohl's, you know, consulting and core stuff. So I was helping them out and I, I had the center manager and the closer the, the sales manager call come onto a call, I just ask them questions. I'm like oh, like, you know, what's the, what's the speed? Delete. The setup manager goes, oh, I, I don't know, but I think it's like, you know, an hour. I was like, dude, how do you not know you're the center manager? Like this, this is like, this is your job to know this, right? And obviously I'm trying to be polite. This is like a client, you know, so I'm just like, hey, like it's really important. I'm being, you know, firm, but I'm not like going too hard, right? And I'm like, hey, like when we. Because we're going to meet a couple times. So I was like, when we meet next, make sure you bring those numbers, right? So a couple of weeks go by, we meet again. I go, hey, you know, what's, what's the speed to lead? He goes, oh, well, I couldn't figure out how to get it. I still, I have no idea, but I think it's an hour. And I go, and so this time now I'm getting a little angry. I'm like, dude, I came on this call to help you. I can't fucking help you if you don't have the numbers that I need to give you advice you know, and so I go, look, dude, like, I really need you to, like, bring this next up. Like, I'm not gonna, like, be nice again. So a couple weeks go by. We get on, and in that time, the. The guy that was running their marketing there, he was an old friend of mine. So I just kind of shot him a message. I was like, hey, can you make sure that even if the center manager doesn't bring this, that will have the speed to lead data? So he went and, like, spent hours trying to calculate it and, like, you know, all this crazy stuff you have to do to figure it out, make it accurate. And he gives it to me an hour before the call, and I look at it, and before I reveal what it was, we get on the call, and I go, all right, setup manager, do you have the speed Delete? And he goes, no. And I just roasted the absolute hell. I was like, dude, this is the third meeting. I don't know. Like, what are you doing, dude?

Yeah, what do you do for work?

Yeah, like, what do you do? And he's like, I think. I think he's like, I think it's like one to two hours. And I go, no, I go, I had the marketing person do this for you. And here are the numbers. And the average was, like, 36 hours. No, it was just, like, abysmal and. Jesus, dude. Yeah, And. And then, of course, immediately, there was no ownership. It was just like, oh, you know, it's. Well, you're factoring in nights and stuff. And I was like, dude, first of all, bro, I don't talk to them.

Let's cough it then, shall we?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let's. Let's. Let's cut it in half. And it's still terrible. Yeah.

It'S not good.

Like, Jesus. Yeah, so those are two good stories on the top of my head of just. Just people doing really silly stuff in this industry.

We had a client leave dialer, like, nice guys, but they were saying stuff. And what the feedback. Like, if someone gives me feedback, like, it's always, like, it's always fine. I don't really. I don't really mind, especially if it's like, oh, you know, because we're like, early stage. Like, oh, the integration isn't simple enough. Yeah, fair enough. Like, yada, yada. But someone goes, we just got better results. And I went, that I don't believe. Right? And so I was like. So I looked into it, and I did a full report, and I was like, well, your guys spend 1.6 hours per day dialing and they're a full time team. But you average 1.2 sets per hour per rep. And I was like. And you average like a. It was like a 19.4% pickup rate. I was like. And what it was is like, I have a theory that a lot of setters at the moment are doing multiple jobs, but getting paid full time and getting paid a base. Because I have not seen any setters work an eight hour day yet. I haven't seen anyone work a six hour day for more than like one or two days in a week. Right? So because we track all the time that they spent and I can see. And the biggest complaints that we get are around setters and they say things aren't working properly. But then we do a full report and things are working exactly as they're supposed to be, right? And so it's like, so like. And what they do. And then I'll get on a call with them and I'll show them everything. Like this is all working perfectly. You guys are just. I'm thinking, oh yeah. But yeah, like, well, I can see every button you clicked and here's the report. And it's like you're just only spending an hour and a half a day online when your job Is to spend 8. So what, what are you doing? And then they have a whole lot of reasons why that's reasonable. And I just say, well, like, you know, if you just worked a full day, you know, so they don't like the fact that their bosses can see that they're only working like two hours a day. And then I think the managers get a little bit squirrely because like they can. Everyone can see that their team is only working two hours a day. And why didn't they know that? Because you can like, like setters skip leads a lot. Like I didn't know that was a thing. But we have like a skipped lead. So it's really like decline and they just click through a lead that they don't want to talk to. Right? I've got teams skipping up to 25% of all leads, right? Like that's, you know, and it's like, so I'll send the setters in slack, like, or if I know like a loom video and be like, hey guys, I know what you're doing. And they're like, oh, right, that. And then it's like, you know, a lot of teams will. Because a lot of teams just say dials. So they'll like do a dial, hang up, dial hang up, dial, hang up. And they'll just like that. And then so some teams like. And I can see that some teams, they'll have like a talk time KPI. They'll leave three to five minute blank voicemails. I did a YouTube video the other week and I was like, I'm gonna do an audit. Watch this. And it was. I didn't literally didn't plan it. And you could hear the fucking movie playing in Netflix with the guy's headphones, right? And he's leaving 3 minute blank voicemails back to back, right? Like that. And it's just. You can hear the movie playing, not saying a word, just letting it run for three minutes. That's three minutes of talk time, mate. Like, thinking that that's talk time in our system. It's not. Our system tracks that differently for that reason. And there are all these things that they're doing and I'm just like, man, no wonder. The only pushback we get from is like when the teams are managed by the setters. Like, they're like sort of doing it themselves. But run me through, like. So, like, what were the biggest things that you found that like, you wanted biggest? Obviously the biggest problem you want to solve is like sales ops and show rate and stuff like that. But with sales kick, like, what, what. What was the sort of underlying thesis of okay, I want to create a software and did it at any stage kind of get out of hand? Did you have to sort of like rein your shit in a bit? Because I know like with me, like we get feature requests all the time and like, my team wants to do them. And I have to say, like, is like, that just doesn't work towards the greater goal. And do you have a greater goal? Do you want to be like absorbed by a CRM or do you want to make a CRM? Like, what's, what's. What's the plan?

Yeah, dude, all great questions before I dive into that. Actually, I just want to tag on what you said. We found the same thing. Just complete inefficiency and just like silly stuff from closers. Because we can see anytime that someone enters a Zoom waiting room and it's like 3 to 5% of the time that a prospect enters the Zoom waiting room. They just never get loaded. And so it's like, there you go. There's 3 to 5% of live calls right there. You just increase your shirt.

You know, you're crazy, man. You look at that over a year and you say 20 of them buy. So you can like 1% of all sales calls. Should have bought, you know, so like, you know, of those ones, you know, I mean, so like, like total calls. That's so crazy, man.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. And same thing, it's a little bit less of a percentage, but same thing with appointments just randomly getting deleted or canceled. It's like there's no, like, like, you know, we'll, we'll look back into things. We'll have a team look back into things. And it's like, yeah, this wasn't canceled by the prospect. There's no communication between the rep and the prospect. But for some reason it's been moved and then canceled. Didn't happen.

That's them selling it into their own program in the back end. That's like, that's what that is half the time. Yeah, dude, I fired so many dudes at seventh level for doing that.

Yeah, it is sales coaches now. Fractional sales managers, dude. Fraction. Anyway, man. So yeah, as far as sales kick, basically, you know, I, I, one of the things that, you know, we have found, and this is like pretty much one on one, I'm sure most of your audience has seen this or experienced this. You know, a lot of companies will have a process in place for grading and scoring prospects to better manage them on the calendar. And when I did all that research and found was that like, basically the two main ways that companies do this is horribly inefficient and terrible. The two things that you need to do this well is accuracy and speed. And so like one of those main ways that companies will do this is they'll have like some sort of form logic and they'll be like, oh, if you click, you know, if you click yes to this question, then that means you're qualified and you can go over here and if you click like no to this question, that means you're not qualified. You go over here.

Yeah.

And it's like in hindsight when I tell people this, no one's ever surprised when I tell them this, but we ran an internal study both at Closures IO and then at sales Kick with all of our clients. And we found that 47% of the time that someone fills out one of those multiple choice questions, it is like factually incorrect, Right?

I've been saying this for years.

Yes.

And as a closer, I never even read the application forms because I didn't. I thought that there was. Because when I was in fitness, right, And I did fitness sales for like a long time, full time, and people would like bleed their heart out and then never even come close to Selling. And then like, I found that there was almost like an inverse correlation between like the length of their application and their ability to buy because, like, they were just so emotional. And so I just stopped looking at them. I was just like, I don't want to know because then I'll bias myself. And so I would just go like, I don't want to know about it. I'll just have the coal and see what happens.

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because, like, the worst of those questions are like the leading, like they're like the leading questions that are financial qualifiers. It's like, well, if you, you know, if you're going to get this outcome, would you be able to afford this program that you don't know how much it costs? Yeah, sure. You know, like, I don't know how much it is. I, you know, yeah, if I, if you tell me I'm gonna make 300 grand a year, like, sure, I'll be able to afford it. That's fine, right? Yeah, exactly. And so like, what, what happens is, is people use this form, logic and it's again, we found internally from a bunch of different tasks, different, different niches, B2B, B2C, et cetera, that roughly about 47% of those are incorrect. And so what that basically means is to problems. The first is 47% of people that are qualified aren't actually qualified and they're never going to buy your thing and they're never going to show up. Right. Or if they do show up, it's just a waste of time. And same thing with the disqualified people. Those people, the 47% of those people are actually good and they're just getting thrown away. You know, you cross your fingers and hope that, you know, they're on $IO and, or they're, they're getting sent to a setter.

I didn't set that up. I didn't set that up. I promise.

There we go.

Fireworks.

You just said the name placement right there. Right, but so that's, that's very dumb and very common. And then the other common way is kind of a little bit of what you were touching on, which is like, you know, they use these fill in questions and they have like a human being go in there and like score it based on a criteria. But then like, you know, it's like, well, human beings work eight hours a day and you know, these applications come in 247 and so now I need three of them. And then, God, someone gets sick on the weekend and you come in Monday and your Entire calendar is just destroyed. And then you've got like, it's like 7am Monday morning. They're just ripping half the calls off the calendar because they're unqualified. And now you've just got nothing on Monday, you know, and that's literally what happened to Cole before we had plugged in sales kick. And so what our system does is it tries to get the highest accuracy of prospect scoring and do it in as close to real time as humanly possible so that at any given time the highest quality leads can pick the closest spots which will increase the sharing and that we can accurately remove the disqualified people and keep the qualified people on. And so how we actually go about doing that is we score a prospect not just on multiple choice questions or not just on fill in questions, but on a variety of different data points and try to get a total score for them that's much more accurate than just some random question.

Right.

And based on that score, we then integrate directly with sales calendars and we'll double book them, we'll single book them, we'll move them to a setter, we'll disqualify them, we'll change the color, whatever that company needs.

Just happen.

Yeah, it just, it just happens automatically.

Yeah. That's beautiful. I think I was, when I was talking to you yesterday about it, whatever it was, I was like, oh, it removes the need to have like some rockstar sales ops guy and you can just have a like dum dum in there, just you know, checking things off. You don't have to have these because I think like we used to try, you know, I've always tried to do a lot of that but you're always having to run around like a crazy person. Like I remember, you know, I like, I'm pretty ruthless when it comes to like sales team management. So like I have the Steph Curry gets the ball mentality. So like for me, if there's like for example, if there's a confirmed call on person one and an unconfirmed call on person two and person two is much better. They'll get switched, right? And like if they're. So the goal is like you, I waterfall down. So like this guy is full, then this guy's full, right? Then this guy's full. Not like there's no equity and diversity fucking policies, that's for sure. And like, you know, the best leads go to the best guys. And there was people like removing tolls from people's calendars and putting them on theirs because there was a cancellation because it's like, that person is so proven that we just need to get them. I remember, like, is it with Yash, for example, at seventh, I. I needed him to speak to six people a day.

Yeah.

Because, like, every time he spoke to someone, it was like, seven grand guaranteed.

Yeah.

You know, and so it was, like, sweet. He. If he just speaks that. So, like, I don't care about these guys. Like, just throw there and then pull out. So we had, like, we were doing that fucking. Like, people were doing that shit full time, you know, and it works. Like, you know, I was speaking to the guys at, you know, New Reach, like, those leads, and, yeah, like, I. I increased their AOV by 400 bucks per sale on PACES offer, like, in 10 minutes. I just said, oh, don't do the 6 pay anymore. And they're like, what? I was like, oh, I had to look at. We had to look at all the data. And I was like, oh, just get rid of the six pay. And boom, Gar. AOV went up instantly. Close rate didn't go down at all. And then I was like, the next week, I came back to him. Cause, like, I'm just doing some stuff. I'm just helping them out a bit because, like, they're kind of onboarding onto dialer and stuff. And I was like, yeah, cool, man. Now what I want you to do is just lead route. They're like, what? And I was like, yeah, so who's your top three goods? These people. I was like, sweet. No one gets a sales call until they're full. All right, let me know how that goes. See you next week. I was like, close rate went up by 10%. Like, they end up with more money, you know, without having to do a whole lot more. And it's. It's just simple, you know, just simple changes like that. And if you can have, like, the issue is then you've got to get people to implement it.

Right?

You know, and if you have a software that you can set the rules and then it just happens. Which is why I made dial the way that we did it. Like, where the speed delete is all automated. And it's not like a power dialer. It's an automated manual dose. The list, the leads are presented one at a time, which means that we can manipulate the leads multiple times per second. Because it's not a list. It's a pool. And there's a. Like, they're being pulled out. Right? Right. One at a time, like, on demand. As soon as someone's available, as soon as that call hangs up next lead presented. But it's. It's being assessed at that second, according to all the criteria, what's the best possible lead to present?

Right, right, right, right.

And so like that. It's the same sort of thing where it's like pulling out, double booking those ones, pull that person from there, put them to a setter, DQ them. It's like we'll take all the pool of leads that are available and we'll manipulate it with software. Because if you do it with software, you set rules and it works.

Yeah, exactly. And there's. I mean, it's so funny because this was something. Yeah. You mentioned earlier there were some surprising things that setters were doing. Well, we found some surprising things that people that were sales ops, sales coordinators were doing that no one really knew. Like, little, like little things. Like, one of the most surprising one was we have a little feature in, you know, when we grade prospects, all that, we send it into people's slacks and their CRMs, whatever. And there's a little link there that if someone sees it and for some reason they just like, man, this was graded incorrectly. They can go in and regrade it and it'll update everything. Right. And it pings us and gives us a list of like, hey, you know, this was regraded. And then they have to get a reason. Right. And so what was interesting, when we were early on in beta, we had a, you know, a couple sales operations people that were regrading some things. And so we have this whole list. And so I get on with a client and I go, I go, I'm not going to tell you the score we gave. I'm not going to tell you the score that your sales operations person gave. I want you as the business owner to tell me what the score of, you know, these 10 applications are. And nine of 10 of them were the sales kit score or very, very close to it. And one of them was the sales op score. And what was interesting is when we, when we, like when I, when we dug in with the sales operations person, you know, normally they had good performance, but literally their reason for that was like, basically that they were having a bad day. Like, that was basically the synopsis was like, you know, it was a long, like, I didn't sleep very well. I was having like a, you know, rough argument. I was kind of. My mind wasn't really there. And so, like, I just kind of thought that this should have been, you know, should have been a three when it was actually a two, you know, and so it's like those little things that, like, yeah, someone's mood is bad. And now, like, there, there goes nine calls that should have been on a closer calendar. And, you know, it's just like, it's, it's little.

Like, it's not their money.

Yes. Yeah. You're 100, right?

It's like, mate, it's not, it's not their money. What do they give a. Like, what did that call cost? 400 bucks.

Who cares?

Not my money. Not my money. We used to grade reps by roi. So it was how much ad spend is put into you and then what do we get out? Because, man, I tried every KPI metric and it was like, every KPI has a problem because it causes a different KPI to be affected. Because if you incentivize on close rate, mate, they'll cancel every call, Right? Yeah. I mean, and if you incentivize on, like, you know, show to close, they'll like, reduce their availability if you, you know. And so, because they're trying to, like, they're trying to win. Right. So they got the tonic in the system. So ROI was like, oh, yeah, sweet. So that meant, like, if you, if you needed to increase your roi, you know how you do that? Referrals. You gain the system through getting referrals.

Yeah.

And so it's like, sweet. So, all right, that'd be a cool one if you can add in like the cost per call and then you have like, this is how much money has been spent on that rep, and then this is how much has been taken out of them. And then like our top rep was 15x.

Wow, that's insane. That's very good.

Yeah. So I put, man, I put a hundred thousand dollars into you. You give me 1.5 back. You know, like, it was like, you know, more like we're going to put 30,000 into. And you give me whatever it was back. But, you know, and it was like, it was because, you know, they did referrals, they did pipeline, they did follow up, and it meant that you can. The people. It's a really. It's a real equalizer because the people who are like, well, just give me phone numbers and I'll do it myself.

Yeah.

And then, well, give me book calls and I'll, you know, I'll close everybody. And. And so it's real interesting metric.

Yeah. And you know, what's. What's really cool about your stuff and sales kick and some examples, some respect is. Yes. We're automating this process. Like in your case, you're just making a system that just fundamentally functions at a higher level based on the technology that it's built built on sales kick. It's, you know, automating a human process. But what we're also doing is we're empowering the people who do are higher level in the organization. Hopefully those people care, right? The executives, the CRO, CEO, whatever. And we're giving them the data they need to actually make decisions. Because it's like, you know, going back to the speed delete thing, like, yeah, you could look at sets, but to your point, I mean, dude, we've all, we've all had conversations with setter managers or setters and it's like every excuse in the book why sets are not good, you know, like why there's not enough sets, you know. Whereas like if I just know, like if I could just log in a dialer IO and I just know like, hey, speed delete is, you know, whatever, seven hours during work hours. I'm like, dude, yeah, these guys suck. I don't need to see anything else. These guys suck. You know.

Yeah, we have, we have a little, we have a card for every lead. So you can see the speed delete for every lead. Yeah, individually. But like, yeah, it's, it's real interesting. You know, I think like the remote space is unique and or is because people just. I think you'd probably. Annoyingly, you'd probably double every company if you got an office just out of pure like, you know, work. Like, it's funny, Andy Elliott's team is on there and they're obviously all in office. My God, man, they work like they work, bro. They work. Sometimes they're running around like chickens with a head cut off on fire, you know what I mean? Just. But they're doing stuff like to a way higher level than like they got 76 sets in a day with a team of six.

Wow.

And I was like, oh, I messaged Danny, their manager, who I think I put you in touch with. And I was like, bro, those dudes.

Are getting after it, right?

He's like, hell yeah. I messaged Andy and I was like, brother, that your team is dialing, you know, so like, you know, good for them. But they're all kind of in a room, you know, doing their push ups and having six packs and stuff. Just having fun, you know, be like being boys. But you know, they're all in a room but they're all working, man. Like so, you know, say I did a post the other day and I Was like, I say what you want, but that dude's team works, man. Yeah, you know, they work a little harder than your team. I always tell it like, you know, the average person, they work harder than your teammates. So like get on board, start, start talking.

Yeah, there's something to that in person energy and just it's so funny how, how much can be improved just by getting your team to work hard, like.

Yeah. And if you can have ways of keeping them accountable. Like Nick Fisher from New Reach told me about this thing called Time camp where it reads all the, all the keywords on your screen at all times and then puts together like, like what you're doing and then you attach like rates to them. But it's like a less invasive software. But it's really good for like project tracking for like different agencies and stuff like that. And like, you know, building out like for sales kit, like for my, like I'm putting it into my devs team. Right. But yeah, man. So, okay, so who is sales kick for and where can they find it?

Yeah, it's for any info high ticket business, whether you're doing a call funnel, application, funnel, challenge funnel to a high ticket, you know, upsell, webinar funnel, high ticket, upsell, whatever it is. If you're booking high ticket online sales calls and you would like to have a better share rate, you'd like to have more throughput and you know, even in many cases reduce your, your cost per booked call. Because one of the things that we're able to do is enrich, you know, inbound applications with financial data. That's one of the data points that we look at to score the prospect. And by doing that we can eliminate some of those financial questions on the application that are incorrect anyways, which are typically the highest drop off questions. So on average people drop their cost per booked call to like 5 to 15% just from like that's like immediate benefit. And then obviously there's the sure rate and all the other stuff that's like the primary purpose of what we do. But yeah, anyone you know, any coach agency, any, any style business like that, you know, it's saleskick.com like sidekick but for sales. And man, we're happy to see, see if you're a good fit and help you improve your show rate and make more money.

I like it, man. All right, we'll put the links to that down below. But yeah, dude, thanks very much for coming on and go forth and check out sales kit guys. It's legit.

There we go. Appreciate it. Thank you.