Sales 102 - CIFC Episode 118
Matt Ryder and Marco discuss advanced sales techniques for business owners and professionals. They cover emotional detachment in selling, building a replicable sales process, handling objections, and uncovering what clients actually spend.
Your arms are enormous.
Once upon a time, I had muscles worth showing.
I've known you for a minute. I can say that to other people.
And they believe me. I've been. I've been really big.
Yeah, like fat. Oh, yeah. Not to brag. All right. Hey, guys. What's up? Matt here. Welcome to another episode of Coffee's Foreclosures. Today, what we are going to be going over is a little bit more advanced from our previous sales 101. I think we'll call it something novel like sales 102. And we're going to be going a little bit into some of the sort of reframes and, I guess, psychology of a sale rather than just the straight mechanisms. So if that's going to be helpful to you, if you're a business owner or a sales guy that wants to make more money, grow your business, stick around, and we'll see you after the intro. If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review. All right? Okay. So in sales 101, I think what we went over was sort of the basic outline of a sale. So the phases of, like, any peaky phases. Right. So going through from start to finish what you're trying to do. So then what you've got, that's sort of the. The foundational layers and, like, the mechanics, but then you've got the emotional tides that you're trying to create to build enough urgency to get someone to actually buy something. Okay. Because you can sort of. You can say all the right things, but if you don't say them in the right way, then they're probably not going to. It's probably not going to invoke the right level of emotion at the right time. Okay. You know. You know, I'm sure my wife has told me many times, it's not what you're saying, it's how you're saying. Yeah, right. Yeah, she probably told you that. So there's some important distinctions. So in those beginning phases, whether it be like those kind of connecting phases like you want to have, there's this big saying, like, you know, detach from the sale, detach from the alcohol outcome and all that kind of stuff. And it's a very difficult thing to do because I think that people are always like, yeah, but I want to make the sound. I want to get the comms. And it's like, it's not like I don't want to get the commission. It's like, well, yeah, man. But like, that's a different thing entirely. And so you still want to get the outcome. Like, you had the. The. The baby trainer. They did come in, right. The. The sort of sleep trainer. She's. She's detached.
Yeah.
From that. A little bit more emotionally, so she's able to look at things more objectively and sort of go, oh, okay, this is what's happening. Instead of, like, just having a freak out. Like. Like we all do. And so what we want to do is the goal of selling, and the goal of being a good salesperson should not be like, I need to make a sale on every sale. It should be that you do the process, which gives you the chance to make the sale. And so then.
And if the sale can be made, the process will allow for that.
Exactly. Okay, so if you're thinking, like, the only way to determine whether or not you did a good job as a sale, like, what if the person just doesn't have the money and you did everything perfectly? And if you were to replicate that 100 times, if 60 of those are a win, the 40 of those are not a loss. It's just the fact that it just didn't work out that way. And so what helped me, if, if I may be so bold, ascend to the next plane?
What slingshotted you to success?
Yeah, exactly. So what enabled me to not be so angry when I was selling? Because I used to go like, ah, they didn't buy something from me, and I just met them was, like, not worrying about it. And so.
And at what point did you. Were you able to do that? Was that something that you learned when you came into the high ticket stuff, or were you able to emotionally detach even when you were the gym owner and you were selling your own product?
No. So angry. Yeah, angry Seeming to be on the planet. Yeah, it was like the hulk of sales, just less green and fatter.
Just a sloppy hulk.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That was actually my nickname in high school.
So it wasn't until much later that you actually could do that. And it's something that you learned from Jeremy, or.
No, it's. It's not that I learned it from Jeremy. I learned it from having a process that I was confident.
Okay.
So I think one of the things that I see a lot of times in sales is dudes will, like, they'll do something and it will work, and then it won't work twice. And they go like, well, everything I've done previously is garbage, so I might as well throw it out. The window. And that's pretty standard for everything in life. And so as soon as I was like, oh, okay, like I can't sell everybody. So there is no process I can do in which will allow me to do that. So all I can do is the process that I'm confident in which works X amount of time. So even if it was like 20% of the time, that's two out of 10. So if I like being frustrated at the inevitability of not selling those eight is insane. Now. I was fully blown insane there for a while. Like I literally punched a hole through a door after not making a sale one time because I had like three no shows in a row. And then like a no sale and a no sale and then a guy ghost me and I was like, you know, punch through a solid corridor. No, I didn't.
Big emotional man, baby came out.
And so. But that was because like I was constantly changing, changing my process and I was being reactive to the things that were coming at me and it's just not a good way of doing things. And so then. But it's because I'd never been taught anything. I was completely self learned and I was pretty good at it. But I was only good at it because I was relentless. It was just, that was really it, it was lots of objection handling and just doing a lot. So I got the flu shot. That's why I'm not feeling that good.
I did too. Yeah, I got a sticker there.
Oh, look at that. Yeah. Yeah, mine's the same but just. Just bigger sticker. Yeah, my wolf's bigger than yours. Yeah.
I mean it's not the size, it's what you do.
Yeah, I mean sometimes it's the size, so yeah, you just gotta do less with it. So. Yeah, so it's. But as soon as I came into Jeremy's fold, like I had someone that I could go that worked for them. And there is a specific way to do it. And so once I like go, oh, okay. Like it was like shooting, you know, like when I was in sniper course they were like, shoot this way. And I was like, okay. Because I'd never shot before the military, so I only learned how to shoot army style. So it was always a pretty decent shot. And then when I went into sniping, it was like the same way of shooting, just a little bit more refined. Yeah. And so I was good at it. I was like, oh, sweet. But the guys who had grown up on farms, they, they, they would always reach this point where they could never get any better. Yeah, because they had all these bad habits which are almost impossible to take out because they thought they knew better because they'd achieved some success with it. And so by. By following that process. And I remember when I was. When I was shooting, like, I had this real methodical way of, like, calming myself down, taking myself through the process, feeling it from my feet all the way up into my fingers, and then at the same time every time, you know, like, with my heartbeat rhythm and with my breathing rhythm. So it was the exact same. So, like, would I make every shot? Like, no, of course not. There are a lot of variables, you know, but I was always in a good position, and I was always consistent enough to reduce the variables as much as possible. And so, like, having learned and had success with that way, I guess, like, when I went into sales, as soon as I saw someone that was able to have a methodology that was replicatable, I was like, oh, okay. Like, I can now start to apply all the. The styles of learning that I've had prior to this.
Yeah. So that's what I wanted to ask then. Like, you learn the process, learn that from Jeremy or the fact that there is a process.
Right.
But for somebody who doesn't, they're selling whatever it is they sell, and they like, how big a sample pool should you take before you do test and adjust? You know, so, like, keep with your shooting analogy. You never test and adjust off less than three rounds.
Right.
Because you don't. There is no average with only two rounds with intruding. And so, like, how many calls would you encounter on a particular product, a particular service, whatever, before you go? This process isn't working. I need to change it.
I would do at least like, 15. Okay. Like, because. Because they're like. With shooting, you can take it down to very specific variables and you can isolate many things that you can do a ball and dummy shoot, and you can see a lot. Right. It's hard to do that in sales. And you're dealing with humans that are, like, very difficult to predict. So they're easy to predict. They're easy to say that they're going to be unpredictable. So, like, you have so many more variables. You need to have, like, a gambit of people, and then you've got to do basically the identical process for everybody as best you can. But there's always going to be variation because you're talking to a person.
Yeah.
Like, we couldn't replicate this conversation.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
So. And neither could you. Right. So. So you got to give yourself A good amount of time. And then the thing that people fuck up is that they go, well, it didn't work, so I'm going to change everything. And then it's like, well, now. Now you can't tell anything. So one thing that I think I did particularly well was, like, the isolating of variables. And so I would. I would do my process. And I was very careful to not fuck with anything that was working. Like, when I before I was selling in the NPQ methodology, like, I had a good close rate. Like, it was very high. Like, it was above 60. And so, like, I was like, I'm not messing with that. But everything before that was a disaster. So I decided to only use Danny PQ stuff before that. Okay. Because I was like, well, it can't get worse.
Yep.
Like, I'm inducing no shows and I'm getting ghosted and all this stuff's happening before I get here. But anyone who I get on the phone with, like, I'm banging it until they. Until they buy. Okay. Now, I had a pretty decent refund right off the back end. Like, one in five would just refund, like, 20 minutes after the call.
Yeah. Right.
Because I was saying some fucking mean things.
Yeah. So if you notice that as a pattern, that's you just, like, inducing some sort of. Sort of learned helplessness of the person where they're like, this is inevitable. I'll say, I'll buy. Get off the phone.
Like, I was. I was boxing people in to, like, just logistical traps where you look like an idiot to not buy.
What do you think happens when that person hangs up the phone from you and they've just, like, unwillingly.
Yeah.
Handed over their credit card details and run a charge?
Well, it's a strange thing because we're just on a phone call.
Yeah.
Like, you can just hang up. It does. He can't be cut. Like, that's what was strange to me because, like, that couldn't happen to me.
Yeah.
You know, like, I would just be like, oh, no, this is stupid.
Yeah.
Like, stop it. And I'd hang up the phone. Yeah. Like, but people are so adverse to conflict that they would rather, like, have someone charge $5,000 to their credit card, sign a document, and then just call their credit card company and send an FYI email. Hey, I'm out. Like, you know what I mean? This could have been sorted with a phone call. Yeah.
Or just, I'm going into a tunnel.
Yeah. Oh, man. I've had people do, like, 14 numbers on their credit card. The best I've ever seen is a bit of a side. I was actually reviewing a sales call of a guy who I was coaching and he gets this guy real good, right? This guy is in a tiny little box at that. He's like, yeah, it sounds good. I'm just gonna go get my credit card. He's on zoom and he leaves the zoom and then you just see an arm coming over the webcam and end the chat. I was like, he's like, how do I stop that? I was like, I don't know man, you can't, you can't. Like that's always going to happen. Even if you're like the most neutral, you know, cool guy out there. Like there will be people who are just incapable of having any level of confrontation, which is, hey, no, I don't know, this is right for me, you know, or like they've big nerded themselves and they've lied about income or they, you know, stuff like that. And so then they're in a box where it's like, well you've told me this, this, this, this and this and now you're doing this, which doesn't make any sense here. So what's happening? And then when you call people on that, they don't know what to do because people are very rarely in a day to day context called on obvious lies.
Yeah, I was thinking about that just this morning, right? So my car's down at cities getting fixed. Stupid radio thing broke on it. But I was kind of reliving the day I bought it. And there was some issues getting financed. It was a paperwork issue. And so I said, oh, it, I'll just buy it, right? And didn't do that. And the chick kind of looked at me weird and because they want to know all your financial info. And I was like, oh, we'll use this account. And she's like, you didn't tell me about that account. And I was like, I'm not like going to tell you where all my money is. Like I gave you enough information for you to know that I'm not a risk, but I'm not giving you everything. And she was shocked and she was like, it usually goes the other way. Usually people say too much and they don't actually have it. And it made me think about this exact situation, like how many people big note themselves and kind of lie about their income and what they're doing and you know, like their, their success and you know, you know, and I'm sure we've talked about this before that you genuinely go oh, this is the right product for you. Like, I'm selling you into this because given the information that you're giving me, and they're good at presenting the bullshit because they presented it plenty of times. So you don't catch them in any of the lies.
Yeah.
And then they're like, oh, but there's none of that's true. So I don't actually have any of the money.
Yeah. So there's a way around that. And I discovered that when I was selling, so I would get that all the time. So I was talking with tradies all the time, and they sort of big not themselves. And then when it came down to it, I was like, oh, like. And sometimes it's a case of, like, they haven't thought about it. So, like, they say things, but they're. You're working on gross figures, but they're not so terrible. Like, I had guys are making $20 million a year, but they were netting, like, 100.
Yeah.
Like, terrible business owners just have no idea what they're doing. And so what I started doing is I started asking all the questions out of order.
Yeah.
So I really. When I really hone that in with salespeople. Okay. Right. When I was selling, like, any PQ and stuff like that, I was like, okay, so what I need to figure out is how much money they're making and how much money they want to make so I can establish gap, because that gap is an important thing for me to get. Okay. Now it's only an initial gap. I'll stretch that gap later if need be because I have to have, like, a stretch goal. You know what I mean? Like, it can't be like, they're at 10k a month. They want to get to 12. Like, that's not. It's hard for me to leverage that. But, like, a lot of people, especially with, like, commission only work. Like, they think they're making more money than they are. Okay. And so what I'll do is I'll go, like, okay, what's the sales process that you use? They go, I use triage and sales call. I go, okay, cool. How many sales calls do you take to. Do you. How many. Like, how many sales calls do you take per week? And they go, I take 20. And I go, cool. How many triages show up? And they go, 40. Okay, cool. And then I go, how many sales calls do you book? And they'll go, this. You know what I mean? They'll go, 30. And I'm like, okay, cool. So they take 20 and how many sales do you make? And they go seven. And so. And then I'll go back up and like, okay, and how many leads do you get? And then I'll be like, okay, and how much do you make per sale? And they go, this many? And then I go, and what's your current? And then I'll go, and then like, and what's your, like, goal revenue? They go 12. And I go, what's your current? They got eight. I go, but I go, but you make $1,000 a sale and you only make four a week. I go, so what's going on there? Like, oh, yeah, I guess I hadn't thought of that. Right, right. So, yeah, I'm making this like, okay, cool. Like that. So I can ask you be confident.
That you always have a true representation of these days wealth and capability on the call.
Yeah. Because I'll ask it so quick because I know what I need to do. I go, this, this, this, this, this, this, that. And you ask it really quick. And I like, I'm very staccato with the voice. This, this, this, this, this.
That would be an interesting thing, I think. If you're, if you're watching, let us know if that, like, you have a, you have an actual flowchart that you follow on that. That's a real thing.
Yeah, yeah. Especially for, like, for certain. So for all the accounts that we use, like, we have the specific administrative questions that we need to get to. So you have an end question. Then you have like, how do we get to the end question? Yeah, because like, you. If you do it in order, it's too easy to lie.
Let us know if you want to make a special video on that with that as a handout. Put it in the comments. Comment down below.
Comment down below. Yeah, yeah. So, because if you do it, if you do it in order, like, okay, how many sales. I mean, how many leads do you get? How many of those leads convert into triage? What your triage show up. Right. How many of those go to a sales call? How many sales calls booked? How many sales calls shop? What do you make per sale? What's your income?
Mm.
It's so easy just to go that you do out of order. It fucks people up. And that became especially good when I was talking, like, selling sales sniper as a service. Because, like, I would just go all over the space over like 20 minutes of calls. I would ask them all these random questions and I would just write down all the answers and then I would. Then I would have like, how Many leads, how many triages, how many of this, how many this, how much money? That and everything. And then I'd be like, so how much money you guys making? Like 150amonth. And I go, how?
Yeah, doesn't that help?
And they go, you're a side hustle. Do you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Adorable. So be like, but how? Because you're only making this many sales, you have this much back in revenue, this much front end can be done from that sales. Like, where's the other money coming from? They go, oh, we did 150 once that one time.
You could imagine if we did that. Right.
So, yeah, it's a really important step to learn how to take as to how to ask those random questions to get to the real goal.
Yep.
So kind of going back to that sort of detachment. There's a nice long tangent there.
That's how podcasts work, mate. It's just two dudes waffling bullshit going around in circles.
Yeah.
As long as we find our way back.
Said, you signed up to us, we didn't sign up to you. No one's making you watch this. Right. So keep watching that. That detachment comes from having a process that you're super confident. So I can explain my process. I can say why, and I know why it works and how it works. So that allows me to go, like, even if I didn't get the sale, I can go, oh, that's good call. So that was always my goal was like. And one of the benefits that I have was that, like, you know the old saying, there's no such thing as a coward in front of a camera. When I was doing all my sales, like, I had Marco below me. And Marco is an animal for learning. And he would listen to every single call I did because he was trying to learn off me. And so. And because I like to remind him every time I see him, when I first met you, motherfucker, you were selling $97 fitness programs, making fucking 45k a.
Year while he's wearing a $10,000 pair of shoes. Yeah.
I was like, you're nothing without me. I turn my daily basis. I just call him randomly. You're nothing without me.
Oh, my God, what have you done?
That's the ghost of Marco. No. So he was just, like, relentlessly listening to everything. So. And so is Road and Will and all these guys that came in, like, sort of foundational to the sort of sniper community was like, I had to do everything. Like, I couldn't take a call off or I couldn't cut a corner because I knew every single call was being watched. And then. So that made me good at objection handling because, like, I wasn't going to not objection handle, because they would be like, oh, you didn't even fucking try. You know? And sometimes you just can't be fucked. You don't do stuff. But I had to sort of.
