Sales Sniper Retreat with Shane - CIFC Episode 142
Matt Ryder and Shane Heatherington discuss the Sales Sniper company retreat, covering team dynamics, sales strategies, and the challenges of managing young salespeople across time zones. They talk through company culture and what works for remote teams.
Hey, guys, what's up? Today's podcast is with Shane. He's one of the top guys at Sales Sniper. He's been here for a long time. He even has a tattoo of Sales Sniper, which is pretty cool.
It was an interview that I did.
With him at our 2022 retreat in Dallas where we got everyone together. It was a great time and he gave a lot of good insights into what Sales Sniper is like, what it's.
Like working with what.
And hopefully you guys get a lot of it and we'll see you with all new podcasts in 2023.
EX Special Forces sniper turned entrepreneur. I've scaled numerous businesses to 8. My name is Matt Ryder. This is my podcast, and I'm telling you to put that coffee down.
Down.
That's a podcast, Mike, so you really got to talk into it.
Oh, this is the get up close and personal.
Yeah.
Oh, how you doing?
All right, guys, we're at the Sales Sniper Retreat 2022, and we are here with Shane Heatherington.
Yep.
Yeah. What's going on, dude?
Not much, man. It's another. Another excellent retreat. Number two for me, so number two for everyone.
Yeah.
Well, I guess a good chunk. I mean, we got half this people, man. We're growing so damn fast.
Yeah.
Got a whole half of the new team. I love seeing the young kids coming in and kind of getting at it.
So they are young. Let's talk about that.
Yeah.
Young team. Most of them in their, what, like, early 20s if we're lucky. Yeah, some of them. Some of them 18, 19, one of them 17.
Yeah.
How do you find sort of managing some of these young, young men?
I love it. I think that the fact that what we have here and what we've been able to build as a culture, first of all, is it shows that people who are having in have a work ethic that is not seen often at that age.
Yeah.
Especially nowadays. So managing kids with high expectations of themselves makes it easier to manage, I think.
Yeah.
So I think they hold themselves to a standard that obviously there's a reason they're working here.
Right.
They had to go through a process to get here. But it's really cool to see, even in the short period of time when we have these type of retreats and we get everybody together, how much. How much more work they kind of like get at. They're hungry.
Yeah.
They really get after it. It's been interesting to see, like, I reckon there's been more dials done in the last 24 hours and what's been done in the previous two weeks. And that's not like a symptom of them not, you know, trying. It's just, you know, I think in the remote world we work in today, it's difficult. Not many, that many people are self motivated to just sit there and dial in a room all by themselves all day. Like, they get distracted. They're on a computer, Facebook's there, Instagram's there, YouTube's there, etc. Etc. And these are designed to be distractions that give you the dopamine hit every time you swipe. So, like, it's no one's fault. It's just that, you know, I think it just shows that an environment like this is such so much more productive for them. They'll make more money. I mean, fuck, we triple everyone's income if we had them in an office.
Oh, yeah. I mean, just Josh alone. Leave 600 dials yesterday.
Yeah, 600.
And he's like, I only got five sets so far. I only got a two and 200 dials. Like, hey, been at it for two and a half hours. But yeah, looks like you're on good pace.
Yeah, yeah, you'll be fine. Yeah, you got 600. 602 yesterday. I told him if he did 600, I'd give him 200 bucks.
Yeah, that's what he's doing.
Yeah.
Little extra cash in the pocket.
There you go.
All right.
He went back off to dinner and banged out another hundred dollars.
Did he?
Yeah.
Good for him.
So hopefully he didn't just hang up on everybody.
Dials are in, you know, but dudes.
Are just kind of setting deals and people are doing the thing. So I've been pretty happy. I like this environment. Like, it's really interesting to meet people and I think kind of see them face to face and get a chance to kind of tell some of the stories about, you know, where the company came from and. And then hear their stories about where they came from, you know, like Mark over there. Been around the block for a while, you know, coming in and kind of going, I want to learn this skill. I want to do this thing. Guy booked five sales calls yesterday.
Yeah.
You know, from no shows.
Yeah. Yeah.
Straight up outbound, which is rough going.
Yeah, yeah.
Did it with a smile, though.
Who sort of surprised you the most?
There's a couple.
Right.
Like that one, I think. I think Mark. Mark, because, you know, I work very closely with him and obviously with. We have high expectations, but also I think we have a high level of. Of help, I guess.
Right.
Like, we're willing to give the help needed to make sure everyone has the success that we think they can have.
Yeah.
So the fact that he just did it with a smile on his face and came back after a whole day of being out, everybody else is out. New guy is still sitting there banging out calls. He's like, hey, can you help me with this? I'm like, fucking right you can.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You're still working. Yeah, let's go. So that one has been. Been great to see. And then also Mac.
Yeah, I was going to say Mac.
Mac is get around some people and all of a sudden slapping sales across. Like, is slapping sales like it's his job or something.
Is he on a sales call? He's on a sales call right now, ladies and gentlemen.
Look at that.
I think.
I think it was good to see, like, Yash in person. I got to. I got to get an idea of, like, he's obviously very good, but I was like, okay, I see why you need this.
Yeah.
You know that story I told this morning at the thing was for him, right?
Yeah, I could imagine.
For him specifically.
Yeah.
So, like, you know that it's interesting to see what people are good at or they're bad at. John Shin, I think, has been like, I've been super impressed. That kid has not left the room. He has not stopped dialing, he has not stopped selling, and he has been doing it with a smile on his face. A deep level of self hatred.
Yeah, you took the words right out of my mouth.
He dials me. The deep level of self. But yeah, it's just good to see, like, that kid is getting after it, you know, and it's just fun to see, like, you know, Valeria set 38 yesterday.
Yeah. She's the unicorn. I wish everybody was.
Yeah, yeah, she is.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
At you.
She's probably making a set while mean money.
How many sets you done today, Valeria? 20.
Just a couple.
What about you, Jordan? Yeah, yeah, just. Why? Just be Valeria.
Yeah.
Valeria said 38 yesterday. Sitting on a couch all day with a pillar between her legs. Just. Just doing this on a phone. She got giant nails.
The nails. The nails are longer than my fingers. I don't know how she's doing any of it, period.
But so it's fun to watch, like, it's fun to watch these, like, I guess young, young people. Two fucking old dudes just talking. Young people kind of thrive in an environment where, like, they're working. Like, you know, we're not like. Like, I remember I was People were taking sips of water yesterday, and I was going, hey, get back on the phone. Right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But, like, they. I think they know that it's coming from a place of, like, I want them to be successful. It's like, I had to do it, you know, and, like, it made me better at doing stuff.
Yeah.
Yeah. What did you do before here?
Well, sales in general is a short time for me so far.
Right.
Yeah.
I've come always come from some sort of, like, a management background and whatever it was that I was doing.
Yeah.
But chef, for a long time, like, I cooked for majority of my life. Either that or some sort of manual labor.
Yeah.
So I found myself in, like, a coaching or manager.
Chef's a rough pigment.
Yeah, it is. You know, you have to hate yourself really deep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You have to love your family, but make sure you never see them.
Yeah, yeah.
It's all the best parts of life.
Yeah, yeah.
Because, like, I mean, I've had, like, when I was a pt, I had clients that were chefs, and, like, it was impossible.
Tough.
Like, I mean, they start work at the morning, they finish work at night. And, like, the only time you get breaks is when you, like, sit there and eat food. And it just. It's a rough existence.
Yeah, yeah. There's no. You don't make yourself meals.
Right.
Like, but the cool thing is when I saw the transition, and I think it's a culture thing for me. Like, it doesn't matter, in my opinion, is my own personal opinion. Like, the job isn't the thing you go for anywhere for. For myself, it's about the environment.
Right.
Like, an excellent kitchen that I've been in quite a few times. Like, it wasn't about the cooking that you're doing. It's about the team you have around you, because everyone's there to support you.
Right.
There's some shit days, and especially what we do. Everybody knows that.
Yeah, yeah.
You got a lot of people saying, let me think about it. How about. How about no?
Right.
But you know that you have your team around you to kind of, hey, how can we help?
Right.
That's something that you can't buy.
Right.
There's no. I don't think there's a paycheck out there that's gonna replace that.
Yeah.
And I think that's what you see with some of the people here is, like, there's opportunities in the world to do anything.
Yeah.
Right.
There's a million ways to make money.
Right.
But the fact that people are choosing to Be here and know that it's something that we're building as a culture, as a business that did start from the ground up fairly recently.
Yeah.
And to see people so gung ho to be like, I want to be a piece of that, that's fucking infectious, right?
Yeah.
Something that's very, very fun to be a part of.
Something me and Rhode talked about was like, I think like one of the, one of the things the industry has done is it's given people unrealistic expectations of what an entry level job should pay. You know what I mean? Like, because, you know, you come in as a brand new sdr, whatever, you get a base, you get your comments. But like, there's an expectation, you know, like, because I think the job is so similar to like the Closers, and you can be a brand new SDR and then you can be sitting next to someone making 50k a month, doing essentially from an outward perspective, the exact same work.
Yeah.
Right. But like, if you look at it in terms of like, say, the average entry level job or the average, you know, you get out of university, you're making 40 grand a year.
Yeah.
Right. The average executive makes 80 to 90.
Right.
So, you know, you know, it's, it's really funny. It's like, and if you're in the mail room, like, you don't think you should be paid as much as the guys that are on the board.
Right.
Like, it's just kind of the way it is because there's like the separation. The job looks different, you're in different departments, you're in different areas. So it's like. But I think the industry has said, like, hey, you can come in here, just make a couple of fucking phone calls and make 150, 200 grand a year. It's like, it's not necessarily true, nor is it like. And it is true for some. Right. But it's like you're an entry level position. It's like you're 20 years old, you're entry level, you have no skill. We have to give you the skill, you have to do the work. And realistically, you'll probably get paid the same as if you're in a retail job.
Yeah.
You know, but you have the option to make more through commissions and stuff like that.
Yeah.
So I think, like, the industry itself has done itself a bit of a disservice because, like, you know, as SDR has especially become more of a thing, like, it's difficult unless you're selling on 100k account. Like, it's 100k offer.
Right, right.
To make really good money. Listen, if you're selling a 500k offer in your SDR, bro, you make fucking 30, 40 grand a month because, like, super expensive offer. Those offers are unicorns.
Yeah.
They're really, really difficult to get on. And then how long do they last? That's the real thing as well.
How many have we seen go?
Exactly. But like, you know, those, you know, those 6K offers, you know, it's difficult to make a really good living, but yeah, you can learn the skills that will kind of get you there. And you can go from the mail room, you know, onto here, onto here, onto here. And eventually you can be, you know, in the room where you want to be. But there's a gradation and a time period that it takes and everyone's going to take different time. And so, you know, it's one of the things that we have to deal with is, I think, unrealistic expectations.
Yeah.
Because, like, sales is a meritocracy. And man, like, those who are good at killing will eat.
Yeah.
100.
Yeah.
Right.
But it's. I think that on that same. That same vein, it's like those who are good at nurturing things for somebody else are going to be really good at doing that.
Yeah.
Hence Valeria.
Right.
Yeah.
She knows what she wants.
She's savage. She's working more. She's makes at like what, 19 years old from a couch. Makes more than the average executive.
Yeah.
Significant anymore.
And more than some closers.
Yeah.
Actually, probably not some. Probably more than majority.
Yeah. I would say the average closer out there would not make as much as.
All just from hanging out on the.
Phone, just DM people on Instagram, like a.
So that's the thing is, is I think it takes a certain.
But she is very good at what she does. Yeah.
But she also picked Elaine, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
She's not looking to be the str that wants to be the closer today. She's like, no, I'm good. I just want to be really good at what I do.
Yeah.
And the thing I always try to help everybody understand is, like, whether you want to go to a different role or not, you still have to be really good at the first one.
Yeah.
Before you have the opportunity somewhere else. Because you need to know you can be trusted to do this.
Right.
That's exactly right.
And you can't, like, you can't try and move up too quickly and you can't try and skip steps because like Tony said this morning, like, you know, he Sort of skipped steps. And now he's realizing that that's a big hole in his game is the fact that he never had to do some of those things.
Yeah.
You know, so I thought that was really interesting for him to kind of bring that up and go like, this is. So his plan for the next year is like, basically go back and learn the SDR skills, go back and learn DM setting, go back and learn nurturing and pipelining stuff. Because he was thrown straight on the fucking closing accounts. Because when he came on, like we were brand new.
You had to be. You know, it's like, these are what we have. We got to do what we got to do.
Well, we didn't have any SDRs, we didn't have any setters. It was just. That was what the sales role was. You become a sales guy, you do your own outbound, you do your own triages and you do your own sales.
Yeah.
Right. So like, when he came on, like, it was just basically triage the sale. Triage the sale. Triage the sale.
Yeah.
Um, you know, he was on pretty decent accounts.
Yeah.
It's also, I think the, like the, with the industry shift too, like, we're seeing the need to be in different positions.
Right.
Yeah.
Can't just be a inbound triage that's getting on your calendar so you can sit back with twiddling your thumbs until everything's ready.
Right.
Yeah.
Like.
Well, I think that like with the, with the marketing is getting weird and harder, I think, as it always has been since the dawn of time.
Yeah.
But like, I think the book of call reality that a lot of closers and setters and stuff live in, I think is like fading.
Yeah.
To be honest, because it's getting more difficult to figure out. It's getting more competitive and it's just in a position where like, I think the future of sales, at least in our industry at the moment, is SDR based. Like, it is people doing everything from cold calling to lead magnets to. To old school outbound and like, and then, you know, you're going to have multiple different marketing channels. You're going to have someone who can do LinkedIn or do Facebook or do Instagram and YouTube, everything.
Yeah.
Then from there they have like ability to collect people and then put them into a sales process and that's what we're going to need.
Yeah.
So that like people, it's like a.
It's like a physical human being search function, basically.
Exactly.
We search for the people who we need here and then get them to the right people to talk to.
Because a straight up book, a core funnel from a VSL is getting prohibitively expensive. And even like the accounts that we're on, like the, we're doing the marketing, it's still cheap.
Right.
Because we do so much other stuff.
Right.
So you get to do so much content. However, like not many people or accounts, even the ones that we have, are willing to do all of the things that we want them to do to keep those costs low. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah.
We've had some chats and so, you know, we're not going to fire every client because they won't do everything we say.
Right.
Because, you know, we still make money but, you know, we have to figure out ways in which we think we can, you know, stop the bleeding.
Right.
As it were.
Yep.
So. And I think having a really powerful SDR department is probably the way to do that.
Yeah, I think, I think we're building out a really strong SDR team personally. But you know, time will tell. See who, who holds the test of time.
Yeah.
But I definitely think we have a pretty strong core and I think the fact that we do have some of the beasts in here, like training the other people. Like.
Yeah.
Something that, and I'd love to hear your opinion on this is like, I think also age training is something that is like important.
Right.
Age training, like you got Erica, you got Valeria, you got Ryan. They're kind of in the same similar age.
Yeah, yeah.
But they're at a specific point in their career that is almost like like when we try to set these unattainable goals for like a million dollars. If you, you never gotten to a hundred thousand.
Yeah, yeah.
Right.
So it's like my thought is like, well, if hilarious doing at this age, I should be able to do this. So how do I do that?
Yeah.
Versus like, oh, Matt's doing this as a business owner at this, at 30, you know, whatever years old, that doesn't seem as attainable.
Yeah.
So it's like, who do we have at certain age points in different parts of their. Different parts of their career who are going to be the people that resonate most?
Yeah, that's a really good point. That's super. I never actually thought of it that way.
Yeah, it's. It's something I've just seen because if you observe like how everyone interacts and that's why I love these type of events is like our retreats is. You see the, the factions, they all separate off.
Right.
There's Always still going to be a leader of every faction, period. It's always someone everyone resonates with as the leader of that.
Yeah, yeah.
So when you notice it, you're like, okay, so that conversation makes sense. Let's talk to the person who the leader is and see what they're hearing.
Yeah.
Right.
It's like sort of how road, you know, sort of became. And Tony.
Yeah.
Sort of became leaders in the business because they were around for so long. They represent different generations.
Yeah.
Roads my age and your age. Right. Tony's, you know, in his, like, mid to late 20s.
Yeah.
And so it's like they're gonna kind of resonate slightly with different people. And, you know, they kind of, like, naturally people flowed to them.
Yeah.
You know, and it was like the sort of young people really resonate with Rhodey kind of has, like a father figure, ish type thing.
Yeah.
And everyone in the middle kind of really resonates with. With Tony. So you kind of get this, I guess, natural shift. But, yeah, I think it's a real interesting thing. Like, I think the difficulties that we have in this company are we have a lot of very young people who want to prove themselves, and they don't necessarily know the way to do that. Right. As only young people can. Like I said today, you're fucking 25. Your brain isn't done. Which is why you make infuriating decisions.
Yeah. Right.
And, like, you know, it sounds pejorative and to say it, but, like, it's the thing that you only realize is true when you get a bit older. And I look back at my behavior when I was their age and I was. And I was in the army, and I was being fucking berated by my sergeant, who's my age now, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I can see that.
This makes a lot more sense now.
Than it did then.
It's like maybe I was the asshole.
Right.
Nine out of ten times.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um.
And then we have time zones.
Yeah.
You know, that's. I think that's a big one. Especially when it comes down to, like, the accounts we're looking to scale at a certain pace.
Right.
Yeah.
It's like, how do we cover all the time zones for somebody like that where, you know, obviously we're not trying to burn everybody out by working 15 hours a day because we need to fill a certain time slot.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's the other tricky part is, like, unless we're. How you can't dictate someone's calendar. So it's like yeah, we need to, like, fill spots, so. I agree. It's like, time zones is big because the fact that we are worldwide, it's like, there's a lot of. A lot of coverage there.
Yeah.
We got dudes in, you know, Europe, like, Eastern Europe, and then we got dudes, like, in Australia, you know, us.
Uk, Canada, and like, Bali, Vietnam, South America, like this.
And then we got the VAs who are in Philippines.
Yeah, it's crazy.
And so it's just, like. It just creates, like, management issues, you know, like, where, you know, managers are managing people that are on totally opposite time zones. And so it's like you're kind of doing work and then providing reports, and then while you're asleep, people are kind of looking at those reports and you say it, and that sounds like a really efficient way of doing things, but it's just not the way people operate.
Right.
People need to be told what to do, how to do it, when to do it, and they need to be, like, told when they're not doing correctly. And they need to be given quick feedback, not feedback a day later.
Yeah. 12 hours is a long time to wait between here and something, you know, it really is.
So, you know, we're trying to do our best to fix that.
Yeah.
Hence kind of the conversations that we've had while you're here. So I think we're on the right track. We're all learning. We're all picking it up.
We'll figure it out. But this is, like I was saying, the environment. I love being on the ship or the plane that's being built as it's crashing. Like, we got to get these fucking wings on. Let's go.
Right.
I fucking love it. But it's not for everybody, Right?
Yeah. Yeah.
But I. I think that the culture that we. We build and the type of people we have are the people that are willing to kind of, let's get these wings on and let's get this thing fixed.
Right.
So I love that culture, and I think that that's something that it's hard to get away from.
Right.
I think that does have to do with.
Especially now that you got a tattoo.
Yeah. Am I supposed to do with this thing now? Can't take it off. It's not a stick on, so. But yeah, that's what I mean. It's like, there's certain to be able to do that. For me, it means a lot to have be a piece of the family.
Right.
So, yeah. You don't find that everywhere.
Well, I appreciate you, brother, for sure, man. And thanks, guys. We'll see you in the next one. Put that coffee down.
Shift.
