She Reads Prospects Better Than Anyone

Hey, everyone. Hey, Rachel. You're just on mute. Hey there, how's it going? Yeah, good, good, good. Notice note taker. All right, I think I have everything working. Hopefully. So let's dive in. Rachel, I know you were saying earlier that you've been taking a peek at some of the recordings, so you've probably got a little bit of a gist of what's going on here. Ahmed, have you jumped on one of my calls?

This is my first call with you.

Ooh, well, welcome.

How you doing?

And then Harsh, I feel like maybe you have— you're on mute. Ah, yeah, sometimes that happens. You might, it's like an audio connection thing. Sometimes you gotta jump out and jump back in. All right, so we'll dive in. Now, obviously guys, like I can, you know, I mean, don't feel like you have to hold back on any questions that you have if you don't feel like they pertain to kind of sales EQ. However, that's certainly what I enjoy teaching and I would say is my superpower, so to speak. My area of like the thing that I feel like I've, has allowed me to do as well as I have in sales. And so as far as that goes, like I guess the best way to articulate it is, I don't know if this was just me, I was a ratbag child, but did you guys ever want to go to a party or like just out past your bedtime, but you, you know, you sussed out what mood your parental figure was in before you asked the question? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So like, even as a child, we know what— we know that whatever state, um, our— the person that we require permission from is in will affect the outcome. It's going to affect their response, their behavior, and in turn the outcome. And so, uh, a pretty clued-on kid, um, a kid with some, you know, emotional intelligence or intuitive kid at least will, but I mean, even I suppose kids that aren't are like, "Mm, you know, probably not the best time to ask." Or sometimes you get the kids that go, "Mm, I'm not going to ask. She seems like she's, it doesn't seem like the right mood to ask her. I'll go to Dad. I'll go ask someone else." Okay. And so, like, but then something I see in sales conversations is that, like, we forget that. Mm-hmm. And so what I see a lot of is just a lot of us having, you know, trying to have the same conversation with everybody that we encounter. And if we can only have a conversation one kind of way, it doesn't mean we won't make sales. However, it will mean that like there's always going to be people that we have effective conversations with, and there's always going to be some people that we just don't have very effective conversations with. And then rather it be this, oh, you know, it's just got to be this like gut feel thing. Humans are very habitual creatures. We know that the internal processes that we have, like perception, perspective, beliefs, conditioning, but certainly just in simplest form, thoughts, feelings, drive, you know, that's what drives the external behavior. And so knowing that humans are kind of habitual creatures, If we can get familiar with, you know, I suppose the behavioural, the external behavioural cues, then we can sort of draw some fairly accurate conclusions around what might be going on for this person internally and understand them even more than they might understand themselves. And then we can use that to sort of adapt our approach and ensure that we're just having the most effective conversation we can with this individual. In front of us. Does that make sense, guys?

Yep.

Yeah, so we all know how to do this. I think sometimes we get lost in scripts and processes and, oh, you know, I've got KPIs to hit, or what are my numbers this week? And like, we lose that, you know. Like, sometimes I hear reps ask super weird questions and I'm like, if you're sitting down having coffee with your best friend and they said that, like, what would you ask them? Oh, I would ask this. So it's like, so you know what to do. It's just sometimes the, the context of how this conversation is taking place, for some reason, all this stuff just disappears out of our head.

Yeah.

Okay.

So that's my little, the little intro for today. So I'll open it up to you guys. Just pop your emoji hand up or whatever if you've got questions or have some feedback you want or would like to role play or have a clip of a call you might want to play. And it can pertain to what I'm talking about here, but it also, if you just got some general sales help you need, I'm happy to help. All right, Rachel, that was quick. How can I help?

Yeah. So I told you I'm very new. I just came in today and I'm kind of redoing things. I want to get help each week with most of all of our calls and with money objections. So we have a two-call process. We do money at the end on the second call. Everything's really good. The program is great and it's going to work for them until that. So can you help me with what, like, my biggest lever of getting better at to start overcoming those better?

So that's a really big question, but I think this will be a really good opportunity for everyone here to learn a couple, like, learn some things. So firstly, what is it you're selling? I think you mentioned it in chat, but I can't remember. I apologize.

Coaching the painting contractors to grow and scale their companies.

Okay, cool. So coaching, I'm just gonna, I'll take some notes so I don't ask people the same things every week. I'm coaching for, so you said painting businesses?

Yeah. Okay.

Painters.

And then what are the specific problems that you help them to solve or, and the solution, what's involved in the solution that you provide in order to help them actually like scale their business? You know, why do they need help or reach out for help?

Yeah. So there's two avatars, people that have never started a business and they won't, so they need like the foundation, they learn the business and then there's people that's already started and they're stuck and they need to figure out why and then grow and scale and get off the tools.

Okay.

Get a team in place.

Okay. And then how do you, so, you know, different, different, kind of a different set of problems, I suppose, like for the So you've got two different avatars, and that does mean that we're automatically, we're gonna have a slightly different conversation with the two of them because they're different problems, right? You know, a person starting a, looking to maybe start a business is dealing with very different problems to somebody who has started one and is maybe stuck and not able to grow. So with the starting the business, what are the most common sort of problems or pain points that they have that are causing them to feel like they might want some help, or even, What are some of the main problems or pain points they might encounter that, or that they're not even aware of, or consequences they might end up dealing with that they're not even aware of that you can help them to solve and avoid?

Just the basics, just like getting leads in and then estimating a paint job and then selling it, and then how to get subs to paint, keeping track of their numbers.

Okay, so sort of like systems, processes around Kind of the different areas of the business, so like kind of marketing, sales, hiring, finance, operations, that kind of thing. Yep, cool. And then anything else? Like a lot of times if we're talking about Biz Op, a lot of the big problem is going to be like lack of confidence and doubt, concern around messing up. The transition between however they're generating income now and, and, you know, starting their like own business, do you know what I mean? So there's going to be a lot of that there too. So make sure you go poking around for that.

Yep, I hear that a lot. I, I don't want to make mistakes, so I just want proven path.

Yeah, cool. So yeah, there's going to be a lot of that then. And then with the stuck in the business, again, that's going to be sort of the systems and processes side of it, but what would you say they're typically experiencing? Or, you know, again, what are those sort of problems? What are they missing that they're either aware or even not aware of that's causing them to be stuck where they're at and unable to grow or scale or even remove themselves from the business?

It could be a few things like their margin's not big enough to hire. They're painting themselves. Wow.

What'd you say? Why not?

They're not pricing jobs right. Why not? Um, because they either don't know how or they don't have the confidence to do it. I see where you're going.

Oh, and then, um, with the systems and, and like the processes, uh, give me an example. What, what's one system or process that they generally don't have implement in their business that, that's sort of holding them, holding them back from maybe, uh, growing or removing themselves, for example?

Yes, they're growing, um, they've only done word of mouth, so they have no marketing systems.

Okay, that's a perfect one. And so why is that a problem?

Because they're waiting for the phone to ring and they don't have consistent leads coming in.

So it's unpredictable. Yeah. And I mean, can they are they in control of it, or, or like, who's really in control of that? Like, besides me maybe asking for referrals, like, how— if I decide, like, all right, I want to increase inquiries or leads, how, how, um, how easy is it for me to do that if my only lead source is word of mouth or like getting referrals?

Without them taking action, it's hard.

Yeah, yeah, and even then, you know, so it's like, it's unpredictable and it's, it's— I can't scale that. Okay, so, right, and then how come they're relying on word of mouth only?

That's what they've always done and that's what's working. They haven't tried anything else.

Why haven't they tried anything else?

Um, because it's got them to where they're at so far, but now they can't They can't grow any bigger.

Okay, so you've got them— it was sufficient to get them where they are now, but it's not sufficient to get them where they want to go.

Yeah.

Okay. Are they generally aware of that in your experience?

Yeah, I think so, because they come on, they just say, "I don't know what to do.

There's so many different types of marketing." How aware are they of, like, the actual problem with word of mouth only?

Some, not everybody.

All right, so then this is where you really want to start is like kind of what are they looking for and what are those things that are holding them back and like kind of why, why, why. Generally, you'll always end up at like lack of systems, process, plans, strategy, and at the end of the day, it's like I don't know how. It's some, it's lack of knowledge in like in some form. All right, which is cool. Now we've got like the, like the gap. And so when you were saying, and I know this was, I just want to understand this stuff because it's going to help me best help you. Now you, you had said lowest hanging fruit as far as like getting better. Um, firstly guys, just be aware that the lowest hanging, like it depends, is your goal to get better or is your goal to increase your sales?

Well, getting better will increase the sales. If I take care of the person and get better, then that will come.

Is it, is it the only way to make more sales though? Is it the fastest way and the easiest way to make more sales?

I know on another call you said the process is number one and then something else and then better is the third thing.

Yeah, the reason I always ask is like, okay, cool, like for what reason? Oh, well, I want to make more sales. Okay, and so it really depends. It's like skill is the It's a very noble pursuit, but it takes time, it takes effort, it takes energy. Those are the kind of, uh, all right, what can I do today that will, you know, will likely increase my sales the most over the next, uh, 2 weeks, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days? So it depends on how quick we want the objective. Now my suggestion is always like kind of have both, right? Because they'll compound each other and, and increasing your skill is going to increase your efficiency. I can make more money with— in less time. Okay, and then we, we also want to kind of have a look at like from a, from a process perspective too. So if I'm tracking my numbers, have you got a one-call sales process?

No, two.

Yeah, so if I'm tracking basically from, uh, I'm going to be tracking two sets of activity. The first is going to be triage or discovery, if that's what you're sort of doing, and it's going to be like available slots, triages, you know, scheduled on the calendar, held, put through to a sales call, and then you've got sales calls scheduled, held, sales made, cash, revenue, that kind of thing. Well, now I can look at it like I don't just— now I don't just have my close rate as a metric, which is the skill-based one, I can look at all of those other close rates or conversion points. And if I can look at a way to improve one of those metrics, the, the closer to the top of that process that improvement is made, it'll have a compounding effect down the rest of your sales process without you getting any better at sales. So that's why I was gonna just suggest that too, is just have a peek and go, all right, cool. Like make sure I've got something there to focus on. And And then as far as your skill goes, I kind of use the same thought process. So for example, something I'm seeing a lot at the moment is just really ineffective pitches, like super ineffective. Now, as far as our sales conversation goes, the body of the conversation is quite skill-based, isn't it? I'm asking questions. I'm not, like, I can control the type of responses I get to an extent, but I can't control that completely. It's completely up to that person how they respond. And so you're constantly kind of, you know, how they respond depends, is going to influence a bit, well, where do I go next? Where do I go next? Whereas the actual pitch part of it, like, once that process is nailed and effective, then it's just about rote learning it and delivering it as consistently as possible each time. And then I've got a few questions in between each pillar, like, you know, do you feel like that would help you more than maybe what you've got in place now? In what way? Cool, move on. Like, it's much more controllable. And so I've been finding a lot that that's a good place to start because a lot of times when I've been listening to calls recently and it's like, oh, I got partner and I got think about and I got this, I'm listening back and I'm like, you didn't even get strong buy-in. Do you feel convinced based on what they've said just there that they're like, this feels like the best thing since sliced bread, like I am chomping at the bit to do this? And they're like, no. Okay, so that's a bigger problem. And it's a nice easy way to start, yeah, because in my opinion, and people might disagree with me, that's fine, in my opinion, You can have a mediocre sales conversation and the pitch can absolutely freaking slap and they'll buy. You can have a really good sales conversation and just miss the mark with the pitch and they'll go from thinking like, "Fuck, I reckon this is going to be awesome and I'll probably want to do it," to like, "Oh, no, I don't really want to." Like, you can lose it there. And so it's just a variable to to control. So I'd say like review that. And then my question to you would be, at the end, do you genuinely feel like, if you're asking some variation of do you feel like this is the right answer, are they like, "Eff yes, this feels like exactly what I need." You're talking about like before price? I don't know if I can afford it, but like this sounds freaking awesome.

Before, before I go into price, You are?

Yeah. Oh.

Yeah, before I go into price, they're like, this is exactly what I need. This is, this has everything. And then I go into price and then it changes.

Amazing. And guys, that's your success metric for your pitch is if like 90% plus of the time you're getting yes, like this feels like exactly what I need. Here is why. This is what will help me the most. Like, yeah, I feel like I can see myself "Making more money, having more time on my sleeve even in the next 30, 60 days." Like just very grounded, very "F yes, this feels exactly what I need." Then there's your success metric for your pitch.

Mm-hmm.

Makes sense? And it's like, cool, well now I know I'm not dealing with like kind of value on that product. Like that's not the problem. Then if we're going to like money, now then it depends as well. Is like, is it genuine? Money, logistical money. And the way to know that is, well, are we sitting there exhausting all possible options? Like, they're, they're like, Rachel, like, I'll give you my bank account logins, you know what I mean? Like, if we can figure this out, like, yep, cool, open to trying that finance solution, that one, that one, that one. Like, is that the extent that they're going to, or, or what, what is that process like at the end there?

No, and it could be how I'm handling the objections, um, as well.

Yeah, okay. So what do you— if we role play it right now, I want you to think of what you're hearing most commonly and just try to give me that verbiage. I know it's probably going to be a bit different each time, but just try to think of like maybe what you've heard most often. Can you do that?

Yeah.

Sweet. Okay, so, uh, yeah, I mean, based on what you've shared, sounds like this ticks the boxes, you know. I mean, you've convinced me, um, you feel like this is what you need in order to kind of take your business from where we're at now and sort out X and Y and Z so that you can kind of get to X point in, in the next sort of 6 months. So yeah, I mean, really, next step from here will be X and Y and Z. Um, I guess, would that be appropriate? Or like, where would, where would you like to go from here?

Um, yeah, I mean, it all sounds good. It sounds like it would work, but, um, I need to go move money around, or I need to go talk to my partner.

Yeah, okay, well firstly, like, that's— hey, that's no problem. Like, if there are some things, you know, you feel you want to do, like, you know, you're welcome to do that. It's your life, your goals, your business, not mine. You know, I'm just— I'm just here to help. Can I ask, like, I guess, for those, um, the money aside, is this something that you— and be real with me, you know— is this something you genuinely feel would work for you, or like, how do you feel? Because, you know, I mean, at the end of the day, that's like, that's really the most important part.

Yeah, no, I feel like the program would work.

Okay, and why?

Just because it has the accountability and has the structure and ABC.

Okay, and the accountability, like, why do you feel like that might help you?

Um, I feel like I can get a lot of stuff on the internet. It's just implementing it and haven't been implementing it.

Got it. And so, I mean, if that doesn't change, um, where we're not implementing, we're not doing the things we need to do to solve XYZ problems so that we can get to, uh, you know, the point you want to be at in your business, like, I guess, where might that lead you?

I guess I'll stay in the same spot I'm in now.

Okay. And like, what would that mean for you?

I guess I'm on the hamster wheel still.

Yeah. Is that, is that what you want? Is that?

No, that's why I'm on this call with you.

Okay. Yeah. And, and firstly, I wanna say like kudos to you for being on this call because I mean, that says a lot about you. You know, it tells me that, you know, you're the type of business owner that's at a point where, you know, you realize that everything you've done to date, I guess, got us exactly where we are now. It's not going to get us that next level and where we want to be. I suppose, like, the— can I offer a perspective if you're open to it?

Sure.

Like, I'd say the most maybe challenging part, most uncomfortable part of taking our business from one level to the next is not so much the things that we have to do, but almost the who we need to become. Because, you know, would you agree that the version of you today is not necessarily the version of you that you need to become or that you will be with a business at that level?

Yeah.

Definitely.

Yeah, so there's going to be this transition in how we think, how we act, and how we carry ourselves. And so everything we sort of talked about aside, because at this point, like, my concern isn't whether you work with us or not. My concern is that you get the help that you feel you need, and, and, uh, you know, we do the things that we need to do in order to go from where we are to where we want to be. Like, you're at that point where you're 100%, like, like, willing to, you know, just draw the line in the sand and go, you know what, like enough is enough, I've been here way too long, I'm not, I'm not willing to waste another minute like looking at myself in the mirror and just, and just knowing I'm not doing everything I can to get where I'm telling myself that I want to go, you know? Are you at that point? Like truly?

I mean, I know I need to do that, otherwise I'm not going to grow.

Yeah, are you, are you going to do that though? Because like there's a difference between needing to, you know, When someone goes to the doctor and they're smoking, you know, the doctor says, "Oh, you need to stop," and then they, you know, walk outside and light up another ciggie. That's the person who wants to, throws the pack in the bin, doesn't pick it up again. Do you know what I mean? So, so I don't, I don't want this to be something you feel you need to, like you're obligated to. I would rather this feel like something you genuinely want to do.

Yeah, um, I do, I definitely want to do it. It's just a big, big decision.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's a big decision for a, for a, you know, a business owner who's looking to, to go big places in their business, do you know what I mean? Yeah. So what, what, what makes you say that, uh, that like it's a big decision though? Like what about, what about it feels big?

Um, it's just a lot of money at once. Yeah.

Okay. And so the money aside though, like do you feel like you've come to that point where, like how do you feel about the decision to actually take your business to the, to the level that you want to go? Like, have you decided that is, that is absolutely what you want?

Yeah, yeah, I got— I need to get away from, um, painting myself.

Got it. So that decision's made. And then what about like when it comes to, to actually getting some help? Um, you know, I might seem a bit redundant, but like, do you feel like that decision's been made? Like, hey, you know, I've got the awareness to go realize I don't have all of the answers and, you know, probably going to get where I want to go a little bit quicker if I just like I get a bit of help. Do you feel like you've kind of— that decision's been made or you still like a bit on the fence with that?

No, I definitely need help.

Okay, so then what's the only decision that's, that's left over then?

I just got to press the button on sending the money in.

Yeah, I guess the question is like Like, um, what is it about that decision that's feeling a little bit, a little bit hard? Because you've made the other ones, and, and arguably, like, they're pretty big decisions. So what is it about this one that is feeling, like, big besides just the amount of money? Do you know what I mean?

I just have never done it before, never spent that much money.

Ah, got it. Now you tell me, do you feel like it's completely unreasonable If I'm, if I've never done something before and I might be a little bit feeling like a little bit hesitant, like, is that completely unreasonable or is that sort of kind of fair?

Yeah, I would say it's fair.

All right, I'll pull it up there. We could keep going forever, but you can see how pretty quickly it gets into like, ah, this isn't money, logistical money at all. Right? And so I think like one thing that's really important that I found when I've been on similar offers is getting, obviously earlier on, you know, really getting them to look at what have they, what does it sort of cost them at this point and what might it cost them moving forward, like tangibly. And then towards the end when we pitch and then even in our buying questions, rather than just does it feel like the right answer, like a question I used to say, for example, is like, you know, okay, and just over the shorter term, do you feel like if if we were to help you with X and Y and Z, can you, I mean, can you actually see yourself making more money than you are now even inside the just the first like 30, 60 days? Or how do you feel about that? Like, oh yeah, for sure. I mean, if you guys help me out with this and this, like, I mean, I could see that alone kind of doubling my profit pretty quickly. Oh, okay. You know, or they don't give me that explanation. What makes you say that? Okay, because now I'm getting, what am I getting? I'm getting them to sell me on, I'm getting buy-in on like quick results because that's something that they want. So that's why in the pitch, you know, you know that a lot of them are going to be like, there's going to be uncertainty and uncertainty always triggers resistance. So you just think about what do people really want? They want to avoid failure, they want certainty, they want reassurance. And if I can collapse those timeframes down, and go, okay, could you see yourself essentially getting a quick win? Could you see your situation being a little bit different, being more better than it is right now, even just in the short term? Obviously not the whole goal, just an improvement. In what way? You know, okay, sweet. So now we've got the quick win idea. Yeah. And then even through your pitch, just those little things like just alluding to, you know, now obviously the reason, you know, as I'm sure, you know, like we spoke about earlier, the fact that like profit margins really aren't where we need them to be. And, and I think you had mentioned that like we're feeling pretty strapped cash flow-wise most weeks. Um, you know, that's pretty common because, because remember, like, I mean, what don't we have in place right now? Ah, we don't know.

Yeah, exactly.

We don't have an effective system to understand how to, how to price our services appropriately to ensure that like those, those profit margins are where they, where they need to be. And so you know, we'd come in and solve that. And I mean, what do you suppose happens pretty quickly then to your profit margins? Yeah, what's happening for you? Okay, so can you see how that would not only sort of really, you know, get you where you want to be in the long term, but even the short term? You've got more cash in the bank and, and just more certainty week to week about like where you are kind of financially. You don't have to like worry so much about, oh man, like, are we gonna— what, you know, we're gonna have enough at the end of the week kind of thing. Does it— does that make sense?

Yeah.

How would that help you just even in the short term, having a little bit more of that, that kind of certainty? Oh yeah, right. That's what they want. So if I can really— yeah, they want the bigger goal, but really, especially if any of them are stressed, etc., like they want out of this, like this pain as quickly as possible. And so, you know, it might require you talk to the offer owner and stuff like that just to be about like, you know, kind of what's reasonable based on what we focus on them. But a lot of business coaching offers I've sold in the past is like one of the very first things that they do is sit them down and go, okay, there's some profit, there's some profit, there's some profit, and within a week they're making more money. Like, you know, and so get that context, and that way you can lean on that in the pitch, especially if you know they're going to be a bit nervy. And then just get their buy-in. Yeah, cool, I could— that makes sense, I can see how that works. And if they can connect the dots logically in their mind, then emotionally it will feel right. It will feel safe, and that next step will just kind of, it'll just, it'll just sort of make sense. Does that help?

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And I don't think I'm sitting long enough in the objection, how you did it.

Yeah, yeah.

So looking forward to that.

I think that's where I would start because that'll be really helpful feedback for you. Instead of just money, sit there and just get curious. Just go, you know what, like, who cares if they actually move forward at this point? My intention is to just get as curious as I can and get as much feedback as I can. I really just want to understand because even if they don't move forward, like, well, now I kind of— I'm starting to see more of a pattern of what is actually going on, and now I can figure out a way to resolve that. So just sit there and just, what do you mean? Like, tell me more about that. Yeah, that's cool. And I just always normalize and, hey, no big deal. And yeah, like, I'm just here to help. I'm here to help, not here to hurt you, you know what I mean? Just, uh, like, what's, what's going on? And the more they open up, you'll start to go Ah, okay, I see what's really going on.

Nice.

Is that all?

Thanks so much. Oh yeah, that's big time.

All right, so a bit of a deep dive. Is everyone— everybody else get something out of that? Hopefully.

Yep.

Okay, I've got more hands up, so that's good. You guys must have got something out of that. So we'll jump to Ahmed. How can I help?

Yep. I've seen that you maintain the— for 80% of what you were doing there, that you maintain a query stone throughout. It's like you're, yeah, so why are you doing this? Like why, what? And there was a flip there that happened maybe at the end there where you switched from curious Laura to coach Laura. Like, all right, so given that all we've done there, doesn't it make sense to push forward with that? First of all, is it recommended for an entire pitch to basically maintain a curious tone the way you did there? That's a question there. Another question is, when do you know that you need to make that switch to actually guide them to and push forward?

Okay, so there's a couple of things there. Firstly, you said pitch, but that was more kind of navigating concerns through the pitch, conviction and certainty. All right, because they will, they will buy, they will feel that. And if you're not, if you don't have enough certainty, not enough conviction, too neutral, too passive, whatever, even if they can't put their finger on it, Like, they'll feel that. A conversation is an energetic exchange. We're influencing somebody else's state with everything we say, whether we're aware of it or not. I want that to be very intentional because how do I want them to feel at the end of my pitch? Certain. Yeah. I want them, I want them to have conviction in like, yeah, I mean, I, I, right? See what I mean? And so the lesson there is, and there's a lot of people out there who are like, oh, tonality is BS and this and that, like, you just can't convince me that it's BS. Um, you can't convince me— those individuals can't convince me that they don't adjust their tone when they're speaking to their children or, or their partner when their partner's stressed or when their partner's relaxed or angry. Like, you know, or maybe they haven't figured out how to do that because they think tone is BS, and that's probably why they're single, do you know what I mean? So like, right, that's like— so for me, uh, I say that because I, I really believe that it that it is. It's how we are, it's how we communicate our intention to somebody. Because humans have evolved over a very, very long time to, you know, to read, not just hear words, but to hear and interpret all kinds of verbal and nonverbal communication.

Yep.

Yeah. And then if I say something, but my tone or body language is incongruent with that, like I say, you know, just to see if I can help, but my tone, my energy is a bit like I want the sale, then they won't hear what I've said. And even unconsciously, they will interpret what I've said as like, this person wants to make the sale. Does that make sense?

Yes, exactly. I think that's exactly what I'm struggling with. It's a bit of some commission work there. It's like a bit—

We can talk a little bit about that then. And then I want to ask you though, and anybody here feel free to chime in. So one of the parts of that question was like that I'd started off really quite curious, and then I started to transition into, I would say, a little bit more challenging tone. Any idea why I started with curiosity? Any idea why I started to transition Just would love you guys' thoughts on that.

Well, it seems like what you're trying to do there is to get as much understanding as possible and for her to feel heard. Also, what you did there, you made her confirm any, there's other thing, the other thing that you did there is like you kept pushing money on the side right there. It's like, other than the money, are you already committed? And when you've made her reconfirm how many times she's committed and you, you're basically not pushing her to do anything. She wants to do it, she's just on the fence.

Why didn't I just go, okay, that's cool, um, like, big decision, what do you mean? Why didn't I just kind of go in?

You gotta make them feel safe. Yeah, exactly.

No problem. Yeah, exactly, because if I— so I'll share this with you, you guys, real quick, just to articulate that. I won't do a big deep dive through this, but can you guys share my screen, see my screen? Yeah. So these lower level, the, the lower level states, and they're not good or bad by the way, just are they conducive with or not conducive with change, uh, the lower level states from the low courage, they're, they're all driven by fear in, in, in some way. Um, it's all about like all to do with survival. And at the end of the day, there's different behavioral responses for different— these different emotional states. But in all— but they're all similar in the sense that, like, for example, fear, the typical behavioral response is to withdraw. So to— that's why you'll notice if someone's heavy in fear, they're like, yeah, I just— it doesn't feel productive. It feels like you're trying to help them and they're just trying to run away. They're like, yeah, I just 'Look, I really, like, I can't, I just got to go think about it, got to make—' You know, they're like trying to get away. Yeah, or if we think about, like, shame, that's like to eliminate self, to like hide away. So if, I don't know, someone is incredibly shameful about like, 'I just, I'm literally broke and I can't do this,' or something like that, like, again, unproductive. They're trying to like hide themselves. They just want to kind of get out of there and like, don't stop seeing me, like, you know what I mean? This is really emotionally painful. And so in knowing that, that a lot of the behavioral responses of these lower level states have in some way have something to do with like retreat or remove self from situation and like unresourcefulness, then the first thing I want to do is just like kind of start to neutralize that and appease that, that part of the brain that at this point in time is feeling unsafe. Because if I don't do that, then there's no way— it's going to be very difficult for me to then start to shift them into a resourceful state and being open and into this direction that we need to, to go. Like, just think baby steps.

And we do that— you do that by saying, yeah, it's okay to feel that way.

But yeah, exactly. I'm normalizing it. Like, notice when when Rachel opened up and was like, "Oh, I've never done anything like this before." I'm always saying some variation of like, "Ah." I kind of like treat it like, "Ah, okay, well, I mean, that makes sense." Yeah. I firstly appreciate being open and honest with me. You know, I can't solve problems I don't know about, right? But also, I mean, you tell me, is it unreasonable for someone to feel a little bit hesitant about doing something that they've not done before, or? Is it kind of reasonable? And I treat it like this silly thing that's like, like, it'd be, it'd be so silly if anyone was like, that, that's unreasonable. I'm just like, that is the just the most normal and most reasonable thing in the world. So we can kind of be like, they're kind of like, huh, oh, okay, yeah. Like, now this big deal is starting to become a smaller deal. It's like, that's sweet, that's all good, you know what I mean? So it's like a lot of that. I just— there's a lot of like the intonations. I'm very relaxed and like curious and easygoing, and I'm having a bit of fun. And because how do I want them to feel? I want that. I want them to feel that way. So I'm just energetic exchange. Yeah. And then I'm influencing their perception. Oh, okay, she's not pushing me. Oh, okay, she feels this, but she feels like she's genuinely interested in me, actually wants to help me. Um, you know, uh, like, so I'm, you know, I'm influencing that perception that they're more influenced, they're feeling, and their nervous system will start to calm, kind of like chill out, right? Now we can have a productive conversation. And then as I can tell they're starting to just like open up a bit, a bit, a bit more, a bit more, then I just start to gradually shift them towards— and it depends on how thick, if that's the right word, like how thick I feel like the fear is there. Like Rachel wasn't super open, I would say that like I'd still have concern, some concerns there, but you know, I don't have all day to roleplay, right?

Right.

So, but I, but I, so I'm going to gradually start to shift a little bit and I'm just checking responsiveness. I want to make sure we're still moving in the right direction. I don't want to move too fast and push this person to, to commit to themselves, even program aside, because I might re-trigger this again, and now they kind of like retreat again. So it's like I'm just inching them forwards. And so notice what I did around like, remember, willingness to draw the line in the sand, kind of enough is enough. Like when we talked about the decisions, you know, you've got the decisions being made where you actually like, you want to, um, actually grow the business. You feel like you would want some, some help. So that's all around like willingness but also acceptance. Yeah, like I've accepted, yeah, I do need some help. Okay, and all of these higher level states are all focused on future possibility, growth, um, development. Like, so notice with the questions I'm asking, the things that I'm saying, I'm, I'm directing what? I'm directing their focus. And as long as I can just keep inching their focus in the right direction—

That's exactly what we did there. It's like, other than the money, what do you think about it?

Yeah, but also it's not just like disregard it. Yeah, like, okay, cool, money aside though. I'm like, yeah, that's sweet. Like, I mean 'Can I ask, like, the— I guess the money aside for a moment, because, you know, really this is the most important part, like, how do you actually feel about, like, what we've— what we've gone over?' So, you know, some people will just be very flippant with that, and I don't want them to feel like, 'Hey, well, let's ignore the money like it's not a thing,' and whatever. It's just kind of like, 'Well, you know, I just— I just want to know, do you actually feel like this would work? Because honestly, if you don't feel like it would, I'm I'm gonna be the first to say don't do it. Mm-hmm. You know, like, I'm not attached to whether you get our help or not. I just really would want you to get the help that you feel like you need to get where you wanna go. If that's with us, awesome. You know what I mean? Like, I got no doubts we can get you there, but it's not my life and my goals and my business. If you don't feel like that we're the right people to help you and you feel like there's someone else out there that's gonna put you in a better position to get where you wanna go and that kind of thing, like, I will high-five you. I will support that. You know what I mean? That's kind of how I come at it from. So again, it's the intention behind it. People can sniff that out. Ever been frustrated and tried to pretend like you're not?

All the time.

Yeah.

Uh, have you got—

Yeah, it's just a comment on this. I think that's where I get in my head thinking like, well, you didn't do a good enough job selling it. Like the reason they don't want the thing is because like your discovery up until this point has sucked. You know, like a good salesperson, like that's probably just the story. A good salesperson—

Can I jump in on that?

Yeah.

So that's a, firstly, I appreciate your openness and, you know, sharing that with the room here because I feel like we could all put our hands up and say like, yeah, I've I've definitely been having that kind of conversation with myself before. I've had that plenty of times, you know what I mean? And so firstly, it does say a lot about you. It says that you take a high level of, like, accountability, do you know what I mean? Like, the outcomes are on me. Something that admittedly I've only started to learn more and more recently is that there's things that it makes sense for us to take accountability for and take ownership for, and there's things that don't. Yeah. So for example, I think something I've done throughout a lot of my life is take a lot of ownership for things that I actually can't control, as well as the things that I can, and sometimes maybe not for the things that I, that I can, right? But for example, like in that scenario, there's a couple of things that come up for me is, um, is, well, at the end of the day, can you control whether they buy or not? No. Despite what anybody says, you cannot control your close rate. You cannot control whether they buy or not. Like, all you can control is what?

Process. Even Matt Ryder, come on.

100%. He'll say it. He's like, guys, like, there's— and I mean, these aren't fixed numbers, but he'll be like, there's always 10% of people who will be like I don't care what you have to say, take my money. It's 10% of people that will never buy, and there's kind of the 80% in the middle that we just got to do the best that we can to help them kind of move forward. Now, those aren't rigid numbers, you know what I mean? It's definitely not 10 and 10 and 80, but it's like, just to give you an idea, is that like, you can't control it. All you can control is yourself. And so that is like my thoughts, my emotions, my behavior. Mm-hmm. My skill set. Like, those are things that I can control, and, or certainly the things that I do to develop my skill set, for example. Okay, because to an extent, I can't control even whether I get better at something, can I? Like, I could do, learn, and practice something over and over, and, and I might not get any better. Like, there is a possibility of that right now. The reality is that that's pretty unlikely. The, the more time and effort you put into developing a skill, like, it'd be weird that you wouldn't get better at it. But I'm just saying that, like, you still can't control that. What you are controlling is the things that you do. And so with that, it's like, I think something I think rattles sales reps' confidence sometimes is like that we make this blanket statement around, well, like, if they don't buy, then like that, that's on me. Do you know what I mean? Like that, and because I've got to take ownership. Yeah. Right? It's like, yeah, you do, but what are you actually taking ownership of? Rather than take ownership of that they didn't buy, it's about looking at like, okay, well, what, what do I feel like I did well? What do I feel like I didn't, like, I didn't do so well? What didn't go so well? What did I learn? And what do I feel like I could do differently, like, next time based on that? Where could I improve? And then own that.

Hmm.

Now, I can never know for sure whether it's that thing that was the reason that they didn't buy. I can't know for sure. All I can say is like, look, it's a possibility that might have been a contributing factor. And so just to ensure that that's not a potential contributing factor to future no sales, like, I'm going to take care of that. I'm going to resolve that problem.

Okay.

Does that make sense? But I can never even know for sure whether that's the reason they didn't buy.

What about refunds?

Adam?

Refunds. Same thing. Like, I had a rep the other day beating himself up because he's like, man, I just like, I just found out that I've got a 5 to 8% refund rate. And, you know, in my head I'm like, well, I must have pushed them, you know, like I must have been too pushy. And I was like, well, firstly, hold on, 5 to 8% out of how many people? Like if it's 5% of a million, not such a big deal. If it's 5% out of 10, okay, that's a big— that's a— do you know what I mean? It's like, what is that? And then also, like, there's a number of things that can induce refunds. Like, and again, I come back to it, it's like, can I control whether someone sticks or doesn't stick after I help them take the steps? Can I control that? Yeah. Entirely, like 100%? Can I control that? No.

No, but you can influence it.

Oh, definitely.

Because last month I had a 50% refund rate. That's extremely high.

That is, that is, yeah, that is very high. And so like, in looking at that though, like it's, it's, it's unreasonable to just look at a number like that and on and, and go like, well, that must mean 'That must mean I'm too pushy.' Like, I don't know that. Like, I need to investigate that. Is there some evidence that suggests that maybe I am being too pushy? Yeah. And it might be the case that, like, 'Oh, yeah, actually, there is some evidence.' You know, there's— I've noticed a pattern in some messages I'm getting from people that's maybe indicating that, 'Okay, maybe I was too pushy,' and that might be part of the reason that they're wanting to to refund, you know. I mean, you've got to get the evidence. What does the evidence tell me rather than just, oh, I feel— So in that instance, yes, that is high, but like, I'm not like, oh man, Ahmed must be terrible or way too pushy. Like, you know, we would need more questions than that. To me, well, first question is, out of how many? 50% out of how many?

Out of, um, there are about 12 closes, 6 refunds.

Okay, and so I got a bunch of questions around that. Firstly is, did you get the— like, do you know what the reasons for the refunds were?

They always say, it turns out I don't have enough money to be able to do this, and I, I'm not going to be able to make it if I don't get my refund.

How soon after starting are they, are they doing that? 2, 3 days. Okay, and are they just doing a down payment or have they got like a payment plan set up or what's the story?

There's a payment plan, like it's a $5,000 offer and the payment plan is $1,000. They pay $1,000 with me and they're supposed to pay it continually.

Okay, and then what's the process after you take their money?

After we take the money, we send them an email with a contract for them to sign. And then there's— after they sign the contract, they're supposed to get the content and move from there.

They're supposed to get the content. How soon are they authorizing, like, the agreement and so that they're getting access to the content?

Uh, next day. Like, uh, we do the close right now and next day they're onboarding call. Um, there's the onboarding call is booked, booked after they sign agreement.

So on average, how long is it between someone paying money and having the onboarding call?

Um, I think it's a week.

Okay, too long. Have you looked at the contract? Have you looked at the contract and the wording in it?

I haven't looked at the contract, no. I've been, I've been in this for the last 2 months.

I would look at that because like, what— it's a pretty easy thing for me to say that, um, oh, like I've thought about this and like I actually can't afford it. Like, that's a pretty easy out, isn't it? Because can you to log into my bank account and confirm whether that's true or not?

No.

No. So it's pretty safe. And so a lot of times that might be, um, a way— just a more comfortable way to say, hey man, I've had a change of mind, then tell you like what's really going on. And then my question is like, okay, what, what might be causing them to feel like it's unsafe to tell me what's really going on? Now it might be the case, but I would think that for 6 people out of 12 to turn around and go, oh, actually I can't afford it. I don't, I don't know if I buy that. Um, that just seems a bit— I don't know, I just, I don't buy that. Um, what— well, there was something else I could ask. So I'd have a look at the contract and just check, is there any wording in there that's likely to just freak people out? Um, And then, uh, there was something else I was going to say. Yeah, an onboarding call, 7, like a week later, like too, too long really. You want someone having an onboarding call within same day, next day, worst case 2 days. And I want them to authorize the agreement on the call. They're going to authorize that and I'm going to kind of—

Authorize the agreement on the call.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And like, I should know what's in that so I can I can kind of sort of talk them through it, make sure they're kind of comfortable with that. If there's anything that might potentially freak them out, I can, I can almost have like a little agreement script for myself, how I can just make sure that they feel comfortable and understand those sorts of things. And then that way, before I even get off the sales call, I can confirm they've got access to the content and they can log in. Because the sooner someone feels like they've gotten started, the better they feel about their decision. Now they're going to start to justify that decision, and that's going to give them clarity. Now they're seeing things, it's feeling tangible, which is going to give them certainty. And the opposite of that is what creates resistance.

So, you know, I have another sales rep and he's not getting as many refunds as I am.

Yeah.

I think that also means that I may be too pushy.

Potentially. Potentially. Like, what, um, how do you finish off the end of the call? Like, can you roleplay the end for me? I'll be a prospect. And actually, uh, can someone here be a prospect for Ahmed? Yeah, I don't mind. Kendall, I saw you nod.

Who is?

Oh, Andrew.

I can. I can only—

And Kendall, I'm gonna get distracted, so—

Yeah.

I don't know, did I resolve your question earlier?

Oh, you did. I had another question. Question, but I have to go.

Oh, amazing.

5 minutes.

That's okay. You can ping me. Feel free to just message me on Facebook so you don't forget your question. Oh, thank you. And that way you can at least still get it answered.

Thank you.

All right. Angel, can you be a prospect for Ahmed? And I just want to hear the end of the call. Like, you know, you've gone over the pitch and all of that. You're basically asking for the sale. Hey, here's the next steps.

And I already asked about from scale of 1 to 10 and they said that they're— Yeah. All right. So Angel, so—

Oh, Angel's stuck on mute. Angel's stuck on mute. I don't know, you were unmuted a second ago. Thanks, Rachel, just jump in because we only have 5 minutes.

All right. So Rachel, based on all that you just told me right now, you seem pretty eager to move forward.

Yeah.

So what do you want to do now?

Um, am I given a—

Say you want to do it.

Yeah, um, yeah, I want to move forward.

Wait, pause for a sec. Uh, these people that end up refunding Ahmed, did they say, "I'd like to move forward," or was there some objection handling that, that happened with them?

There was, um, the objections are usually, "I'm not sure," and it time to think it over and I work through that in order to get feedback that they're really hesitant. It's not that they really believe in this. However, they're feeling a bit hesitant. And if they're feeling hesitant now, they'll feel hesitant later. So they can move forward.

Again, I'm just mindful of time because I've got another training to get to, but I can definitely help you to resolve this. But I think one immediate thing that you can change is just like walk them through and help them to to sort of get the agreement like authorized and just if there's any points in there that you might want to point out and kind of just have a really relaxed way of kind of wording like that. You know, and like for example, sometimes there's clauses in there that are like absolutely no refunds under any circumstances once you access the content because obviously we don't want people to steal our IP, yada yada. You can be like, you know, if I point that out, I might be like, 'Cause I mean, I'm sure this isn't you, but there's been times where I don't know what goes on with people. They log in, they just kind of take everything, and suddenly it's out there in like the black market, right? You know what I mean? So that one just kind of takes care of that. So I try to, anything that's a bit scary, I just make it, I just relax it and make sure they understand like kind of why it exists. 'Cause if it makes sense in someone's mind, now it's less scary.

Mm-hmm.

And then making sure once they kind of authorize that, then help them to get access to the portal. So I want to make sure that you can kind of get, get, you know, I want to make sure that you can get access, make sure that you can log in so you can kind of get started right away. And I'd suggest that just give them like a piece of homework. So maybe there's just a Start Here video, or maybe there's a couple questionnaires, like give them some homework to do. And then if they're not able to book their onboarding call until they've done those first 2 things, and I mean, I want to make sure they've got their onboarding call scheduled as well. And so now I'm controlling that process. If the agreement's authorized and they've got access to the content on that call, well, now I can make sure they get that onboarding call in, and I can give them a piece of homework to do before the onboarding call, and all of that is immediately going to help them to feel a lot more like—

Very good.

A lot better about the pro— yeah, exactly, rather than them able to now sit in this space of like, well, I've not signed anything, I've not accessed anything, I'm not had any calls, like, do I really want to do this? Is there still room? It feels like there's still kind of like an out, and they can end up in that thought loop. So I think just with the time that I've got to help you, that's just something nice and simple that you can sort of like implement that will help a lot.

I'm working on that. I'm working on myself.

Well, I mean, when you say onboard, I mean, I would just make sure that they get access to the agreement. Cool, authorize that. And then next step, let's make sure you're able to log in, get you logged in. Okay, now that you're logged in, see that first video there that says start here? All I want you to do at this point is just kind of go through that. Okay, that's gonna give you a lot of clarity about like next steps from here. Okay, and then last thing before we go, just to make sure, you know, there's no scheduling issues or whatever, I wanna make sure you can get in to speak with, you know, have your onboarding call with your coach, like, as soon as possible. Because again, that's going to give you a lot of clarity, and they're going to kind of give you some 1, 2, 3 most important first steps to make sure we can start solving this problem and getting you towards results as quickly as possible. So have you got your schedule handy? Let's pull up that, let's get that booked in, and cool, that all out of the way. It shouldn't, it really shouldn't take, um, too, too long, uh, at all to do that.

Yeah, thanks, Laura. That's cool there.

Okay, and then jump back on because I can definitely help more. And then like just have a listen back to, am I pushing them in? Am I leading them in? Like I'm kind of like, so you're ready to go? And it's very one-way questions. Or is it more like, you know, so do you feel like you'd want me to help you sort of take the next steps? Or where would you like to go from here?

No, I'm definitely, I do a bit of that.

I want to make people feel like they've got an out.

No, the way I usually do this is like there's an assumed close there. Okay, so the only thing I need from you right now, do you want to use your current email or another email? I was like, yeah, I'd rather— right, so write your billing address and we can move forward. And then I move forward within 3 minutes.

Yeah, see, that can trigger buyer's remorse as well, where I'm just kind of, okay, so is it— is this your correct email? And then, you know, what's your surname? And okay, and is it like a credit, a debit card? Okay, what's the like, you see how I'm just little step by little step inching them into it without— like, they don't now feel like they're in control. And if they reflect on that off the call and feel like, hey, I don't genuinely feel like that was my decision, then yes, that can very much like trigger it. So even just simple things like they say, yeah, I want to move forward, and just a little, are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. Okay, if you're sure. Even that. So those are the selected two things that I would look at for you. Okay.

Yeah, right. Thanks, Laura.

All right. All good. Did everyone get something out of today? These are really good questions. They're all quite in depth.

Yeah, thanks so much.

Great call. All right. And if you need any clarity or whatever on anything that I've said, like Rachel, I know I gave you a couple things. Feel free to just like ping me so you don't have to wait all week to, to just clarify feedback that I gave you today. Yeah, happy to help. All right, see you guys next week.

Where do we ping you?

On Facebook. If there was a question that you had that you didn't get to ask, rather than forget what it was and never ask me, you know, I'm happy for you to ping me. It's pretty quick and easy for me to answer, I'll do that. If it's a bit more complex, I'll tell you to just come on the call next week and and I can answer it for you then. Okay.

I'll just write down and that's cool.

Yeah. All right, cool. See you guys.

See you. Thanks a lot.