Special forces soldiers tell all!

Hey, guys, what's up? Matt here from Coffee is for closers. We have a very special yet somewhat exclusive podcast for everyone today. We have Will Hankson in town from the US we have Mr. Pat Stewart from canine paradigm fame. And that one YouTube video that we.

Did that we said we're going to do regularly, one time.

Well, regularly enough.

I mean, this is two.

Yeah, yeah, this is two. Well, he did another one, but it didn't record. Yeah, yeah, my bad. Yeah, my bad. Boo's fault. Anyway, so everyone here is part of Sales Sniper now. Everyone here is ex special Operations. The only one who should be here is Ben. However, we didn't have a fourth chair.

That's a logistics problem.

Yep, there was a logistics issue. I blame Ben because he is the CEO.

Yeah, it was Ben's job. He had one, one job.

So what we're going to talk about is sales, persuasion, military, probably lots and lots of anchorman references and. Yeah. Enjoy.

If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. I'm going to repeat that. You will make a million dollars within three years of the first episode you listen to. We don't want pikers. We're not here to save the manatees. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review. Put that coffee down.

All right. So, Will, when'd you get in?

I got in this morning. So I've been up for roughly coming up on like a day and three quarters with about three hours of sleep.

Okay. Which is, you know, for a little mini Red Bull time for a five hour energy.

Yeah, they say it's the best formula for a good podcast is sleep deprivation.

Well, the last one you had coveted, I had Covid.

I don't even remember what got asked and what I said. Nobody should listen to that podcast. This one remains to be seen.

We'll put the link up here.

Yeah, the one that just says don't listen to it. So if you click on that, that's on you. That's like the. Your phone has been in has a virus. You should click on this like you know what you're doing.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not aware of the websites that cause that. However, I have heard of them. Something to do. The hamster.

I don't know.

Okay, so you guys have sort of not really met.

No, we just met outside.

Yeah. Congratulations on the enormity of your success of, you know, being the tripod and the pyramid. So I'd love to. I'd love Will to give everyone a background of yourself and then pack and learn and we can all learn that we're all relatively similar human beings.

Yeah. So spent 10 years, special operations community of that time, five of that was in the Marine Corps. Came up through as a recon Marine. Was there as kind of like the transition into MARSOC happened, all that stuff. Did a whole bunch of deployments there. Got out, thought I was going to be a travel writer. Went back to school, was surfing in Southern California twice a day, and then got a call from an old friend who's like, hey man, I've got this kind of thing that I'm on overseas. We're working for the folks that we're working for. You want to come over? And I was like, yeah, it's very.

Vague to say we're working for the folks. Have they, have they changed names numerous times?

I'm not even sure what you're talking about. So he's like, hey, it'll take you about nine months to get this clearance. In that time I'll plug you into some stateside stuff. So I ended up kind of training folks that were getting ready to deploy, doing that with a bunch of really good friends, and then deployed a whole bunch more after that for the next five years. Got out and then started up my first business. We've talked about this. Matt and I have a shockingly similar background. So I got out and I was like, ah, cool. I have no. I have a business degree, which is basically that degree should have said speed and googling before the timer runs out, because that's how I answered all those questions. So started up a gym, paid, built that up, and sold that to a venture capital firm.

Then was cmo, by the way, incredibly impressive to sell a gym to a venture capital.

So that was a bit of dumb luck if I'm honest about it.

Oh, I believe it.

So it was, it was pure. Because no venture capital firm is like, oh, yeah, I want a series of gyms.

Yeah, I would like a series of poorly cash flowing, low profit entities that require a tremendous amount of people and infrastructure to run.

Yeah, exactly right. As you well know, no, we got lucky. So that one was interesting, right, Because I think in a gym, as you well know, like, you can run that as well as you possibly can. It's still a tough business to make work. So I was in a town where they had. It was like our next biggest, I don't know, rival or whatever you want to call it. It's like gyms, who cares? But they were like, you know, kind of one of Our folks that we were competing against and like total, total adjustable market, all that stuff. They had partnered with a VC firm. They had a national idea. They were going national with it and they wanted to acquire the next like the. We were their target. Right. They wanted to own.

Yeah.

Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is where I was. So because of that they scream. They started to approach. I got a little bit lucky. They thought they were going to just steamroll me and they would have, I would have gotten just absolutely crushed. The X factor into this is my brother in law. My whole wife's family is much smarter than I am. So he was the, at the time he was the top mergers and acquisitions attorney for software companies.

Okay, that's in Chicago.

That's handy.

So, so he, he walked me through that sale. It was an incredibly frustrating experience for me. It had a good outcome. But the whole time like I, I would have gotten just annihilated.

Yeah.

And they, they knew that. They just didn't expect it. So I got lucky. Then my daughter was born, became a full time sales guy. Cause I was like, I can't run a company and be a good dad. At the time. Like I just knew like I, I kind of overly commit.

Yeah.

And then just go hard in the paint as we probably all do. And I, I was very concerned at that point in time that I was going to be a good dad. So I was like, oh, I'll go to work. What I thought I was going to do, it's like I'll go work for somebody else, help grow their company for you know, three to five years until my daughter goes to school. And then at that point I will have thought of something of the next venture. Making sure it doesn't compete with whatever I've been doing just out of, you know, integrity and being a semi decent human. And then I'll go start that up and go from there. Which all changed. And here I am.

Yeah. And Pat, similar rundown.

Well, not dissimilar.

Shocking.

Yeah. 12 years in special forces went straight.

12 is more than 10.

It is 12 and a half. 12 and a half if we're going to push it. I broke my back in 2011 and so that was kind of like I was on the downward spiral from there. So I stuck around for four years after that and was on like a critical skills waiver doing, you know, niche stuff that they couldn't. It started out they were like, oh, Pat will look after you and like keep you around. But then the guy who was meant to replace me got killed in Action. So it was like, oh, like we, we do actually need you to stay here. So yeah, I stuck around and then kind of ventured into the dog space and was into that sort of, you know, long story short was over the four years that I stayed in and couldn't deploy, but was in training roles and admin, like I was the platoon site, like I was the sniper platoon sergeant. I basically kind of figured out how to turn my hobby into a job. And my wife was a really successful tattooist at the time. And so when I left the army, it was like, we're going to have a kid, same deal, you know, and I was going to be mostly home dad and she, like, she was going to have a career and I was going to have a job. And then a few years in, it kind of turned around and her body started to fall apart. Because, you know, tattooing is a really limited thing. You can only do it so much.

And.

And then I started a podcast with a friend of mine, Glenn, and it went the other way. It was like, okay, now she's got a job that she tattoos now and again. And then I had this career in dogs, but Covid just for everybody, right? So, like, mostly I was working in the States, teaching seminars, that kind of stuff. It's really limited in what I do. Like, it's not very. What I do in dogs is not very popular in Sydney or in Australia really. So I have a really limited kind of market here and the US markets worldwide, it's a huge market, but it's like in any one spot, it's not really there. So it requires a lot of travel. So covert just kind of put an end to that. And now that like, you know, pandemic's mostly over and we can travel again, I'm just kind of not in a position to do that. Like, I just don't. And I don't really want to be traveling right now. It just doesn't seem like a wise time to be constantly going overseas, you know, like two weeks of every six. Doesn't seem like a wise time with a six month old baby. We had, you know, we had another kid and like the idea that, you know, there's a war in Europe currently, it just doesn't seem like there is. It just doesn't seem like a wise time to be spending big chunks of time from away from home.

So that's interesting, man. Like, because I think I. One of the things that I resonate with is like, for me it was like, oh, I shouldn't be running a company Because I'll be a bad dad. And that actually switched for me. Right. And I, And I kind of found that that homeostasis or balance, that worked for me. What was the thing that shifted for you where you're like, oh, I don't want to be traveling anymore.

Well, so when Rip, my oldest son, was a baby baby, I, you know, no one wanted me to travel. No one knew me, so it wasn't on the cards. And I was home a lot and spent, you know, like the, the kind of time that you can't get back with kids. And, you know, so like my current, My current baby son, Axel, he's six, seven months old, and they're different every week. It's a different. Yeah, the milestones happen every week, and I just didn't want to miss any. And as Rick got older, and he was probably three before I started, you know, really traveling and would be gone for two, three weeks at a time regularly, not that much changes in that time. And he can handle missing you and he doesn't, like, you know, it's not as big an impact on a kid to be gone for that period of time. But, like, right now, you know, a two weeks to a six month old is a big percentage of their life.

Yeah.

And they really change. And so I find myself thinking pretty critically about you when someone invites me to come overseas. Money's not a big motivator for me. I know that's a, that, that's a weird thing to say on this podcast, this business. Right. And I've never, you know, I make plenty of money. I make a lot of money, but it's.

Which is probably why it's not a big thing.

Yeah.

And I say, from this incredible position of privilege, you know, having an army pension and blah, blah, blah, like, I'm not worried about the money. And it's because I'm like, I get a bunch of it, right? Like, and, and, you know, I work.

I'm not worried about watches either.

You know what I mean?

Or new cars.

But so it became more now, like, I find myself when people ask me to travel to do stuff, I'm like, how much money is in that? Because, like, it's got to be worth my while to go where it used to be. Like, yeah, that sounds like fun. Like, why not? I'll totally come now. I've, like, I do a big cost benefit analysis, and it's much, you know, the. There's a lot more in the stay home pile than there is in the travel pile or column. So. Yeah, that's that's kind of it. And. And so, you know, I've come on board here because I just like hanging out with Matt, and he. He made up a fake job for me, so. You're doing really well, which I'm killing it at my fake job.

Yeah. Yeah, we got a chair.

Yeah, I got a chair.

I mean, that's the winners of this.

I set up a spot. I bagged a spot in the office.

I think it's. It's really funny, though, because a lot of, like, mine and yours progression and mine and yours progression. Like, we've obviously known each other for. I mean, God, it's got to be 15 years, maybe 17 years.

You were at my house when I came home from Afghanistan in 2005.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

Like, was that at the party?

Yeah.

So the first time I met Pat, Right. Me and Pat were not friends to begin with. Right. That's a little bit chill. It more chilled out than what he used to be. I'm probably a lot less annoying than what I used to be. And I remember I was wearing, like, we were at a party and I was just wearing, like, a letterman jacket because it was like a USA High school. Back to school, back to school. So I had my letterman jacket from high school, which obviously very rare thing over here, but I still had it and I wore it, and I just had that with, like, shorts and no shirt. And he goes, this is the first time I ever met him. He goes, you're not fat, you're just blank. And I was like, is this guy really? Yeah, so that was the first time. But like. But then, like, you know, we became friends and we. We can. We can tell the story offline about. About how Pat became to respect me as a human, but then sort of, like, became closer friends, like, as we got out of the army and I started training and stuff like that. But then, like, we had a very distinct. At the same time, both of us were like, Pat was like, oh, I'm going to try and be the guy in the dog industry. And I was like, I'm going to try and be the guy in the sales industry. Both of us had the exact same approach, which is we would just do a metric boatload of content, which is purely designed to give value. Then from there, we will try and take market share. It was the identical strategy. I would say Pat was probably a year ahead of me. I sort of. I think I got the idea from stuff that you're doing. I was like, oh, that's working over there. Yeah. And so Pat very quickly took a lot of market share within what you were doing.

Yeah.

You want to kind of explain that?

Well, so we, you know, a friend of mine, Glenn, who I was training dogs with. Yeah, just kind of bite work is tricky. You know, you need multiple people and that kind of stuff. So we were just kind of. We had no business interest together at all, but we just would train dogs. He did a podcast with someone else, and I think he got the bug for it and was like, hey, you want to start a podcast? And.

And I was.

And. And in the dog industry at the time, there weren't many at all. And so we were early. I think that's multi billion dollar industry if you want to count pets. It's madness. Yeah, like, if you count pets, it's a multi billion dollar industry when you get into food and all of that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, he got the bug for the podcast and was like, hey, you want to start a podcast? We had a couple of false starts, but then eventually we got it going and it became really popular. And so in the dog space, it's probably the most. Or not the most. It's one of the most popular podcasts. We get about 40,000 downloads an episode.

Okay.

Yeah. And that kind of just sort of bought me authority in that space. Like, I'm good. I am good on the tools, but I'm a better teacher. And that's what, you know to people. Like, I'm better at instructing how to do that kind of stuff. And so it gave me the leg up of people being able to go like, yeah, he knows what he's talking about, but he's doing a good job of explaining it to me in audio only. Imagine what he could do, like, with dogs. And I've got a lot of online. I got a lot of me actually training dogs content. But people need help physically. So that's kind of the limitation. The bottleneck when you talk business wise is like, I create. And I got told not to do this by my mentor. My mentor in dog training was this guy, Bart Bellon, who, you know, is arguably the most famous, best dog trainer ever. And right when he kind of trained me, he was like, I'm not going to do seminars anymore. So it was like perfect timing. Like, I just kind of slotted in and got to steal his credibility, essentially. Yeah, he lent to me his credibility. But the issue is, you know, no matter how much content you put out, and I have an online course, it's done really well. That got us through Covid and all that kind of stuff. But there's always demand for in person training, like, people. And as a decoy, like, I'm mostly in the bike work space.

You got.

Someone's got to get bitten, right? And that's, like, it's been weird because I kind of got to this pinnacle and. And it's been annoying with COVID Like, my career was headed in a particular way, and it's not that I wanted to get to there. It was like I could see where it was going. I'm happy to, you know, can fall kind of anywhere, but I could see where it's going. And now it's impossible because my dog got old. The things I was going to do with him, I can't do. Like, it just kind of a lot of things outside of mine or anyone else's control. It's kind of changed it quite a bit, which is very frustrating. But we still have the podcast, still do it, and I'm still very much in the dog space, and I'm still doing seminars and stuff. I'm just more particular about where. Where I do them and when I do them and that kind of stuff.

So there was something you said that I perked my ears up, especially with this crowd, right. Which is. You're like, yeah, I'm really good on the tools, but I'm also very good at explaining it. And I think that tends to be pretty consistent with a lot of our group. I would love to hear from. From your perspective as well as Matt's perspective. Cause I know what my process is on taking stuff in so where I understand it well enough that I can then go teach it in a way that can be easily consumed, taken in, and then like, exponentially put people ahead. I would love to hear from both you guys, kind of how you view that process for yourself, personally, to get to the point where you can teach it.

Well, I like to. I think I'm relatively obsessive, which is, I think, very similar. Like, me and Pat once were like, hey, you want to lose weight? We're like, yeah, okay. We'll have a competition to see who can work out the most in 60 days. And so we had these meters, you know, like the, like the. It was, you know, you get, like, points, right? You do a heart rate thing, and depending on what heart rate you have is like how many points you get. So I bought an assault bike and, like, you can. It's like live updates, right? And so I'd finish an hour, work on an assault bike, just punishing it, and then I would log into my app and I would see him working, working out, walk straight back down. Right.

It actually got unhealthy.

Oh, yeah. It was like I was working out. I was working out four to six hours a day whilst doing full time everything. Yeah. This is Ross doing sales calls. And then, like, Pat ended up beating me. And like, the last day, I was like, I'd worked out 48 hours prior. I'm now mathematically eliminated. Right. Like, I. I can no longer win. And so I called all the boys and I was like, if you see Pat or talk to him, just be like, hey, did you. I saw Matt running, like, down there. Weird. Like, what's he doing?

Like that he told me he. He called, like, he called at 48 hours earlier. It's like, I can't. In the time that I have, even at max points, I cannot catch up to where you are. And I was like, that sounds like something. Someone who's trying to trick me into being complacent would say. So until the midnight of the actual challenge ending, I was out running hill sprints until midnight.

Right.

Like, I finished work. It was a Thursday night where I worked those at nights. So I was like, on my way home, went straight to the park and ran the hills from, like nine till midnight.

And you were working? Doing bite. Yeah. Like, not easy work. Yeah, yeah. So that's why I have. I have outmapped tattooed right there. Because that, like, that was the bet. Yeah.

So to get it stronger.

Yeah. So. Yeah.

All right. So obsessiveness is. Is the first thing, would you say it's the same, Pat? Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed. For me, it's the same thing as well. Right. And that first phase, I like to categorize it as like the absorb everything phase.

Yeah.

Like, how do I dive into this and absorb everything? What's next for you?

For me, I just have to understand the thought process of the person who's done it really, really well. So I just have to be able to ask, why, why, why, why, why, why, why? Or if I don't have access to them, I have to be able to rationally write down what the process is. Like, physically write it out and then go, like, what. Why would you do it this way? What are the pros and cons of this? And then like, when I was learning, wrote out the script and then I was like, okay, why would this. Why would this be this way? This makes like, I don't. I know it works and I know it must make sense for a certain reason. Why does it do it make sense? And then once I can understand that, then you're done. Because then you're like, oh, not only do I understand the how, but understand the why. And then I can start to attribute that thought process to everything relating to it. And so it starts to make everything very, very clear. And then you can tailor your training to get better at it, at the thought processes that you understand, either the most or the least, depending on if you want to lean into your strengths or like, lean into your weaknesses, you know. And so, like with any pq, like when I was selling, I knew my natural strength was objection handling. So I didn't. I basically ignored everything Jeremy told me about objection handling until it was time for me to learn his way of objection handling because mine was so strong as it was. So I just focused on like, the parts of it that I knew would create the highest value proposition change for me and then just dove through step by step.

Yeah. And to be fair, Jeremy's way of objection handling is quite elegant. The way that he does it. Right. It. It was actually the thing in any PQ that took me the longest to understand Abjuremi's besides, and this will sound funny, the way that he actually utilizes situation questions, which is the same way you. You utilize hooks.

Yeah.

That took me. Those two things took me a very long time to understand. And you had a process that was a little bit more. Especially the way I've heard you describe it is a little bit more blunt.

A little bit more hammer fisted.

I wouldn't say it is pretty blunt.

I teach sales for dummies.

Yes.

Right. Like, if you ever look at Marco incredibly elegant sales. Oh, yeah, beautiful. I have no to give about it. Like, I have no intention to learn it. I don't care. It's beautiful. I will look at it, I will listen to it. And all I have no to give. Right.

That's because you shouldn't have to come in as head of sales and then learn not only Jeremy style, but then your style and then Marco's style.

Yeah.

And then so I had to decode everybody's style so I could understand what was being taught inside of sales sniper. So I then could actually just coach our reps. Yeah. It actually took me like months and.

Months to figure out the way I figured Jeremy's so good. I was like, that is 10 years away. No matter what I do, it's 10 years. Right. So I have to figure out the way that gets me the best in the shortest possible time. So I created an epq for dummies, like fully blown. This is the stupidest way you could possibly do this. But like this is extremely effective. And then you reduce like it's got so many things in there that now I don't do many of them at all because like I training anything, right, you have all these tricks that you use to like bypass skill and then the more skilled you get, you don't need the tricks anymore. And so there's pros and cons to doing it in each way. But like, that's why I can get like very average salespeople to become quite good very quickly is because the way in which I explain things is the stupidest possible way to do it, but it is really effective.

Well, and I think it goes back to something that you mentioned there, which is like kind of titrating up with skills as you go so it can become more elegant because that. You taught me a hook a long time ago when I was selling on one of her accounts where it was like, hey man, this will sound super random, but like most realtors I find are like either watch guys or car guys. Which one do you tend to lean towards? Yeah, I pulled that out the other day on a sales call because I was like, oh, it's the perfect spot for it. So I think it's having some of those things in your back pocket where you're like, like this is where this is the right place as opposed to just utilizing it every single time.

It allows you to price anchor so you can establish a value of something that is essentially not a value like a watch. Who cares, right? If you're not willing to. If I'm willing to spend 50,000 on a watch and I'm not willing to spend 5,000 on a course, I am a. Yeah. So you can just essentially price and value anchor and then you can bring that back. So like it's a, it's again, it's a tool of the trade that you can use. And there's probably like sort of like a ubiquitous concept across dog training or whatever, but it's like this is something you can use once you get good enough, you will not have to use it.

Yeah.

Something I've noticed you have and I'm guessing all the, all the guys in sales have, and it's the same as what, what I do. And pretty much everybody that teaches or presents is that you have like a hundred three minute bits and they're. They're in the Rolodex.

Yeah.

And someone says something and you go like, here's here's this. And I've, I've said it a hundred times. It seems, it seems like it's genuine here now. And it is genuine. I mean it like I'm not like a fake person, but I've, I've rehearsed this. Commerce is for you. This is a first time conversation, but I've had this conversation hundreds of times. And here's the bit that comes out and I present you with that. And I see that when the sales calls that I've seen you guys do, and it's like there's recurring themes and because you're only. You typically having the sales call with one person one time, they don't see your other calls with other people. That, that to them it is not a recurring theme. It's genuine every time. And I see that like it's. And that's a lot of content. Like 103 minute bits, you know, 300 minutes is a lot of things you can pull out. And so there's a lot to build that. It's not like that's easy, but that's I think the way that I see you guys do it. And when I teach it's the same. Someone asked a question, I'm like, yeah, I got that. Like I. This is not the first. It's rare that anyone asks me a question for the first time.

Yeah.

These days, right?

100.

Plenty of times I've been like, oh, I'll have to get back to you on that one. But then for me, how many times.

Have you just come up with something on the spot and you're like, that was really.

Yeah. Like you have that out of body experience where you're watching yourself answer it.

It's like that scene in Old School where Will Ferrell goes up on there. He just starts talking. He's like, I blacked out. What happened? It's like that. It's like, oh, I got to get that zoom recording. I got to figure out what I just said.

The first time I did that congruence hook, I was like, so it's like I really recruit salespeople. They have that congruence of speech in action. In order to be a good sales guy, you kind of have to get out, get out of your own way because you help people get out of their way for a living, right? And they go, yeah, yeah, congruence. And I go, yeah, congruence. And then I use that the whole way through. Anchor it with like, hey, like let's say we are able to help you become that really congruent. Consistent salesperson, and you're able to make that extra 20k a month. What would you do? So we. We tie the outcome to. To being that person and then the same thing with, like, the consequence of never achieving it. And then from there, when they give me, like, an objection, that makes sense, man. Because, like, but for us to be that really congruent salesperson that gets everyone out of their way, we have to first learn to get ourselves out of our own way. So what do we need to do to put yourself in a position to be able to. Right. So you can just start riffing that. And then all of a sudden you start changing. You start like, like changing the decision making from buying something to being someone who can achieve. And so it makes like a binary choice. Do I be a good sales guy or to being someone who can achieve. And so it makes like a binary choice, do I be a good sales guy or a bad sales guy? Because a bad sales guy can't even sell themselves. A good sales guy can sell themselves. So just do it. And that's like, as soon as you start figuring stuff like that out, then you can start developing that for each type of person. And then that's kind of when you start going down the rabbit hole. And then you can just listen. You can hear a few different trigger words from the individual. And you're like, oh, I know the call that I'm having now. And then you just shift, and then you have that coal.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Which goes back to what you're saying, right? Which is like, I have to understand the why behind what I'm doing. And then once I understand that why enough. Right? I understand, like, what am I actually looking for here, Right? Then from there I can go. There's a variety of different ways I can get that. What makes the most sense.

Yeah.

And then I'd start playing with shit and. And kind of going from there. Was it similar for you and kind of your process? And how do you break that down?

Yeah, and, and, and not only with, like, training people, but even in actually training dogs. It's the same thing. And that's what I teach in that. First thing I got to do is figure out your motivation, right? Like, how am I gonna. How am I gonna reward you as a dog, right? Like, how am I. What do you want the ball? Do you want a game? Do you want food? Like, what is it that I can pay you with later? And they give that to you for free in the start. And then I've got to develop a system of communication prior to that so that I can say, that's correct. Here's the payment. And now I've got everything I need to manipulate the dog to do whatever I want with it. And so it's the exact same with people.

So you've got like, status, money, significance, you know, like those sort of needs of people. As soon as you figure out their motivators, then you can figure out the.

Right. So, like, it's. It's.

Never heard of them.

Manipulation is. Well, what do you guys call it? You call it persuasion. Persuasion.

It.

It all works the same. Mammal brains and mammal brains. What do you want? How do I show you a path to getting it? That's it.

The. The.

The difference in it. I'll articulate this for this conversation because it's probably important for the listener, which is like, the difference between persuasion and manipulation is persuasion is just something that you already wanted to do or kind of clearing the path in order for you to get there, whereas manipulation may not be in your best interest. Yeah.

And. And maybe I should use persuasion as well. But it is the same. It's that, like, hey, there's a thing that you want, and I'm going to show you how to get that. But in order to get that, it's via the thing that I want.

Yeah.

And it's. It's just motivation is the key that, that it's in dog training and. And then in training people, it's all about motivation. Without that, you have nothing. And so when I figure out, what is it that you want? Okay, now give it to you for free a few times, and then I go, in order to get it again, now you got to do something for me, and I'll give it to you again.

Right.

So here's a question I have for both of you guys. Right? So now you understand what's going on behind that you're trying different stuff. There are a variety of good teachers out there and coaches and methodologies and way more bad. How do you start to wade through what's good and what's bad for you inside of that process as you're starting to get to that point of mastery?

Like, I learn in a very particular way, though. So, like, I cannot absorb anything I read. I absorb everything. I hear everything.

Okay.

Every conversation I have where I feel like it's an important conversation, I will retain basically 100% of it.

So every conversation you and I have ever. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I mean, one or two of them.

Yeah, at least one of them.

Yeah. So, like, I have A very good retention. So like, for me, like that way of learning and being able to interact with the person is extremely beneficial to me. So like how it's presented is really important for me. Like you can give me the greatest book on sales, I will get 14 pages in and go, what? What? I didn't read any of that. Right. Because my brain just does not work that way. So I have to be able to like lay it out. That's why I like whiteboards and stuff. And why you can see all this mad scribbling is because like that is how my, my brain works in like flashes of ideas and like clouds and so like I have to be able to put it out there visually and then make sense of it myself and then be able to ask questions about it. So for me it's like the delivery mechanism is really important. So like something like an inner circle would work fairly well for me. But like, for me, like having access to Jeremy for even four sessions was worth more to me than like, like for me personally than doing a group training model. Like when I was trying to learn some YouTube marketing, it was 30,000 for the year. I said, hey, instead of me going to four groups a week, I would rather pay you 30,000 for five one on one sessions.

Yeah.

And I was like, are you happy with that? He was like, I was like, just, I just want to see you once every six weeks and I just have questions I need to ask you and then I'll be fine, I'll never bother you. And he was like, okay. So that's kind of. And then I started to be able to dissect some of the processes. So the delivery mechanism for me is super important because I just want to ask. I have like four questions. And so I was like, I need this, this, this and this. And then those four questions will unlock all the things that I don't understand and then I can move on.

Yeah, it's really interesting because that's so different than a lot of the way that like the coaching consulting industry normally runs, at least in, in kind of the Internet online world, like the rest of the world is a little bit different inside of like historic age old businesses.

Yeah, but, but if you look at our staff portal and how I've laid it out, that's how I learn. So it's very short videos that have a high level of intent and a very precise outcome for each video. So like I have to absorb information in small chunks that are ultra precise that then like stack on top of each other to unlock a concept.

So how do you get, like, a baseline understanding of anything new where you don't have exposure to it? Like sales, you had a ton of exposure. But, like, if we took. I don't have a great example, so hopefully you do have one in your head. But something that is relatively new that you want to grasp, let's say crypto and understanding that. How do you start with that and then get that baseline?

If I become obsessed with it. If I become obsessed with it, I'll just consume all information that I can get my hands on, hopefully over a video, and then hopefully I can ask someone questions about it. So I was lucky that David would answer my questions.

Yeah.

Right. So. And David's like a crypto quadrillionaire. So I had access to a highly skilled individual, but, like, I got obsessed enough with it to where the first thing I did was get a coach. So not David. I got somebody else because, like, he was too busy. So I was like, okay, this guy can explain all the key concepts to me. I paid him a thousand bucks for 45 minutes. Seven times.

Yep.

And then that gave me enough of a baseline to then when I could just go watch a bunch of videos. And then I just started playing around with stuff. So I was like, okay, I'll just. I'm willing to lose a thousand bucks. So I was like, just moving money all over the space. And then if I didn't know how to do it, I would do a loom video, send it to the coach, go, what have I done wrong? And he goes, oh, you got to remember how these interact. And I was like, all right, sweet. I know how to do that. But that. And two weeks later, I. I knew crypto.

Yeah.

Enough to. Where I could do what I wanted to do. As soon as I could do what I wanted to do, I was done.

Yeah. This is really interesting because I. I basically take in stuff the same way where it's like, I want the baseline of information, the foundations, and then I just want to put it into action. And, like, I want to mess up, because when I mess up, I can ask better questions, or if I don't know stuff, then I'll clear those things up. And it's like five to depends. It can be, like a hundred questions depending on how complex it is or how terrible I am at it to get to mastery. But it. It. That foundation is key. And I think when I look at, like, our experience, like, it's. It's the thing that I have reflected on a lot going, what allowed me to have any Sort of like success that I have now. What is that foundation? Because I did not do it alone as much as like, I could say, oh yeah, I built these businesses, blah, blah, blah.

Like, I.

That's true. But I also had a ton of people over the years mentor me, pour into me, make sure I understood stuff, make sure I had it. And then obviously with our collective backgrounds, like, the stakes are so high. You learn how to ask the right questions.

Yeah, but how fun is mentoring someone who really cares?

That's so I've been mentored and I've mentored people and never have I ever asked to be mentored. And nobody who's ever asked me to mentor them have I. It's always a case. Like, I think that kind of happens really naturally because as an expert, you see someone trying to become one, you're like, I can help you here. Right? And it's like. And they're never people that come to you and they're like, please teach me this. You're like, right, but it's like, people are like, hey man, I'm about 90% there. You can fill me in on that last 10%. I'm like, yes, totally can. Right? You show me that you've totally motivated yourself, you've pushed yourself forward to. I'll plug whatever gaps I can for you. Right? It's when people are like, I want you to teach me everything.

It's like, yeah, I agree on the everything.

Yeah. Right.

But I like, I, I actually asked with the head of our board, Kim. I was like, hey, can I get a. I was like, what's the reasonable request? You can't say no to. I was like, can I get a fortnightly 30 minute call? Right? And I have like, yeah, but no.

But timeout from the game. Because before you ask that, like, I had him come to me with like, holy. Will is doing some stuff.

Yeah, that's right.

Like you'd sent him, hey, man, this is what I've done. This is what I've done. This is what I've done. Can I get feedback? Feedback. So like he'd already like, presented him with.

Oh, yeah, three.

Yeah. So like for you then going, asking, it's a, it's a, it's a foregone conclusion at that point. And if I have a look at like the people who I've mentored closely within Sales Sniper, which I was one of them. Yeah, for sure. It's like road, right. Yash as well. Like, Yash is. You know what I mean? But like, it's the People who are like. And even like. Like, Maggie recently was like, hey, I'd love to do so. I was like, yeah. Because, like, I can see you have really tried to crack this nut.

Yeah.

And there are a couple of things that are missing, and I can fix that.

Yeah.

You know, so. But it's like, if someone comes to me and is like, just like, even if you offer me money, I'm probably going to say no, because you haven't gone far enough down the road to where, like, what I present to you is of value to you because it's either going to go so far over your head, and then I have to dumb it all down and start from scratch, which I really don't have any interest in doing.

I agree with that.

Like, you have to go down the road, like, you know, so that's. And that's all part of it.

I. I think that's a piece of it. Right. Which is ultimately, I think, where I was probably driving towards. I didn't totally know where I was going to take this point, but here we are. Which is, I think once you get to a level where you are foundationally good in order to hit mastery, I can point to anything that I've achieved any level of mastery based on the equality of the questions that I've asked the people that are already past that. So, like, what I do right now with Kim, because, one, I just respect his time, but two, only have so much time myself, is I think a lot about what are the questions that would make sense to bring him. And I have my notes app on my iPhone and I just write those questions and I go, what are the highest leverage? I used to do this with you, too, when we had the. When our weekly was more you mentoring me before that kind of switched into, you know, us working on growth and all of that stuff for the company, which was like, what are the questions that make sense to bring you here that I think you will enjoy answering? We'll stretch a little bit of the way you think about that, but will also allow me to fill in those gaps and build kind of these mental models that will move me forward and actually not waste your time where it's actually more beneficial to you, I think.

I totally agree. And one of the worst things people can do is when you go to the expert and you ask a question and you already know the answer for it. Like, when. When I catch someone doing that to me, I'm like, you're wasting both our time. You want to pat on the back. That's what you're actually looking for is a pat on the back. And it doesn't work for everyone. It doesn't at all. But, like, I don't need to be, I don't need someone to be nice to me, like.

And I have. Yeah.

But no timeout from the game because before you ask that, like, I had him come to me with like, holy. Will is doing some stuff.

Yeah, that's right.

Like you'd sent him. Hey, man, this is what I've done. This is what I've done. This is what I've done. Can I get feedback? Feedback. So, like you'd already like, presented him with.

Oh, yeah, three.

Yeah. So like, for you then going, asking, it's a, it's a, it's a foregone conclusion at that point. And if I have a look at.

Like that space, like, and the guy that I first started with who really taught me the, the biggest first chunk of your really high end dog training stuff, one day I really got with the way he was talking to me and, and what he was doing, and I kept making mistakes, but it was a very technical thing that I was doing and it was my first time doing it and I got pretty angry about it and was visibly like, pretty. And he came over to me and he said, hey, we can stop any minute you want. We can just stop doing this. Like, you've asked me to train you. This is how I do it. If you want to just go hang out, we can go have a beer, right? But we're. Then we're done here. So do you want to go hang out and just be friends or do you want to shut up, get back to work? And I was like, I'll get back to work. And I was like, that's. That's how I want to be treated. I don't want it. I don't need someone that's got to cuddle me. And that's not for everyone. Absolutely. That's not for everyone. For everyone. But that's what I hate when people come to you and they ask a question to appear like they're asking a good question and they know the answer and you know they know the answer. And it's just this theater. It's like, hey, don't. Let's not do this. Come to me with. You really don't understand. But I think that's like an element of vulnerability where people, you know, like, I've come to you with three questions that you answered so easily. I want to, like, have a bit of confirmation of a force right so that. To show you where I'm kind of at. And I think that is a folly.

Right.

Like, there's also a large difference between questions and being questioned.

Yeah.

And I. I say that a lot of, hey, guys, I don't mind questions. I go. Being questioned is very different. And I go, you will get a much different answer and a much different tonality. But, like, I'm not married to any particular way of doing things, but I'm teaching a very particular way of doing things. I was like, so, like, if you want to go do that, I'm gonna go do that. But we're talking about this, you know? But I don't. What Belfort says, so you can go do what's. Once. We're talking about this way. If you want to do that stuff, you can do that way. I can't teach that stuff. I don't know that stuff. Right? So let's talk about this. I think it all comes back to, like, in my mind, like, I was. I. I get angry during trainings. Not angry, but I crack during trainings a fair bit when people ask the same question a lot, right? Like, if I get to the inner circle where I'm training people and the same people ask the same questions, I go, oi. Like, if you want to learn this, then, like, get obsessed with it and just dive into it and make it everything that you need to be. Like, this is your world now. Like, become the best. And. And I think, like, with everything, if you want to be extraordinarily successful in something, you just have to obsess over it. Like, when I learned any bq, like, I was the people who I've mentored closely within Sales Sniper, which I was one of them. Yeah, for sure. It's like, road, right? Yash as well. Like, Yash is. You know what I mean? But, like, it's the people who are like. And even, like. Like, Maggie recently was like, hey, I'd love to do so. I was like, yeah. So blown away by it. I was like, who? I was like, what is happening? I could not believe that a single person in one lifetime had put that together.

I was like, it's brilliant.

It is brilliant. It is, like, beyond. I was like, wow, if you figure this out, you're multimillionaire. Like, there's no if, ands, or buts about it. And I remember the way that Jeremy thought of me, looked at me, treated me. As soon as I asked one question, I said, hey, man, are you doing this because of this? And he goes, yeah. And he goes. And in 15 years, you're the only person to figure that out. And I was like, huh? It makes a lot of sense. And he was like, yeah, yeah, it does. And I was like, cool. Anyway. And then, like, a week later, he's like, hey, do you want to be my sales guy?

I want to be best friends.

Yeah.

We just become better friends.

Yeah. And I think, like, with mentoring, my. My thought process on mentor. I've said this before, is the worst case scenario is that they stay your mentor. Yeah. That is the worst case. They need to become a friend that you can ask a favor of, and they need to be invested in your success. So, like, if I want to get. Like, if I get mentoring from Jeremy, like, Jeremy is my sales mentor. He is the master now. I have no intention, need one, or desire to be as good at human sales. And I've been very upfront about that. I am. I will get better, naturally, of my progression, but I will not attempt to. Right. Because, like, I can see you have really tried to crack this nut.

Yeah.

And there are a couple of things that are missing, and I can fix that.

Yeah.

You know, so. But it's like, if someone comes, like.

I would, like, it's all downhill from here.

I'm good enough. Right. I've reached the point of diminishing returns, but it was just like, okay, like, if I can do this right, and I can make Jeremy invested in my success, then at the point in which I ask him for a favor which makes me more successful or for him to do something, then me achieving it makes him more successful because my success is hinged on him. And so when I went to him and I was the sales guy, and I said, I can run this company better than the people who are company currently running it. Give it to me, and I will fix this. And he was like, okay. And that was it. And I fired everybody.

Fired everybody. All right, so I. I have another question, and this is based on a conversation I had with one of our guys earlier. I did a coaching call with him, I don't know, probably about six months ago now. And then he stopped me as I was. As we were walking. I was walking, go to take a leak. But he's like, hey, man, thanks so much for that session. He's like, you. You figured that out in, like, a very short amount of time. And I was like, well, yeah, man. As soon as I saw what you had going on, it was easy. I was like, you have a wealth of experience. You've been very successful in another place. Like you were so clearly on the role play that we did. And I saw it within the first like three minutes trying to be somebody else, that you were second guessing yourself.

So I mean, it's like, just like, even if you offer me money, I'm probably going to say no because you haven't gone far enough down the road to where like what I present to you is of value to you.

I look at like the difference between being really good and being elite. At the point of where you understand what you're doing so well, you can just let your personality, your style, everything else come out. But you trust that you're still going to get the same, if not better outcome. Yeah, that I think is a thing that a lot of people struggle with, especially inside of sales, inside of business, really. Performance in general. Yeah. Which is even the people that start to understand the process, which is why you can role play for 12 hours a week. You can study any PQ, you can do all this stuff and you can still, you can still realistically not have a high level of success. Right. You can still never crack 20k a month in comps or whatever.

Does that translate? Do you see people trying to be Bart?

Do you see people trying to be 100? And it 100 translates in that you really just have to understand the principles, the core principles. There's a framework, like there's a skeleton to it and everybody's got their own skin suit around it. And when you see someone who's learned from a particular person and they miss the skeleton and they try to wear their skin suit and, and we say.

That a very good way of putting it.

Yeah, we see that all the time.

And because it's either going to go so far over your head and then I have to dumb it all down and start from scratch, which I really don't have.

Decoying is one of the biggest things, like teaching a dog to bite. It's a weird little dance with the dog. And there's principles, there's things you do, but everybody has their own flair. And very often you can tell who tricks train someone by the thing be interested in doing.

I agree with that.

Like you have to go down the road like, you know, so that's enough that they do. Okay.

And, and they, I can tell who.

What, what training they've done by the way they sell.

Oh yeah, totally.

God's Danlock. That's Belfort, that's Cardone.

Yeah. And, and, and when you can tell who trained someone, they're never, they're going to be someone who was trained by someone, they're never going to be the person training someone else.

Right.

Because you would go to the original.

Right.

And so it's about sort of understanding. I get it. I understand the principles and I like, my brain works in. So, like, I see the flowchart. I know how you, I know the decisions that you're going to make, and I'm going to make the same decisions, but it's going to be with my own flare. The flowchart is going to be the same, but it's going to be different colors and there's going to be different patterns all over it. But we're going to get to the same place. I'm going to get to the same place via the same mechanism. But to an observer, it might seem really different. Right.

So here's an interesting thing, right, Because I've looked at the. All three of us come from a background where, like, we were fairly confident what we did. Like, I would say I had a very, very, very high level of confidence in my skill set when I was operating. I was able to, I actually second.

Guessed part of it.

I, I think that's a piece of it. Right. Which is ultimately, I think, where I was probably driving towards. I didn't totally know where I was going to take this point, but here we are, which is. I, I, it took me a while to translate that confidence into business. For my first business, I always thought I was behind the curve. I always thought like, oh, I'm behind the curve. Like, even when we're doing really well, like hitting high profitability numbers for a brick and mortar gym, all that stuff. Right.

I, I think you need that, though.

I do, and I agree with that. But you also, to hit an elite level, you actually have to get rid of that. It will hold you back.

I don't have that.

So I, Yeah, here's my question for you guys.

That's what gets the hunger. But now I agree.

At least it was for me. Here's my question. For somebody that doesn't have our background and so they don't have to go to combat for 10 years, right.

How is that an option?

Well, right now there's plenty happening.

Well, yeah, Matt, for some of us it is.

You guys are both qualified snipers, right?

I think once you get to a level where you are foundationally good in order to hit.

No.

Were you. I wasn't aware.

I was not. Oh, thanks. Yeah.

Oh, I didn't know. I didn't know.

I was.

How many, how many deployments did you get?

Less Than inside of your 10 years. Significant less than you, I believe. It's weird because we spent.

We spent about the same amount of time, but you had seven. That's weird.

I was very important back home.

Mastery. I can point to anything that I've achieved any level of mastery based on the Right.

I was the sniper.

Oh, that's weird because all the work was overseas. But.

But that makes.

That makes sense.

Well, I mean, by the time. By the time you were done with them, you'd already killed everyone.

So I said it to a booze the other day. Booze is like, oh, he called me a sniper. Like, you know, everyone's here. The sniper. Right. And I was like, oh, dude, I actually wasn't a sniper and I was the sniper platoon sergeant. But I was neither of those things.

But you can imagine if you were right, how do you.

Especially now that we all coach other people. Right. And their development truly is indicative of how successful we are in our roles. Like their success is literally, which I would say very.

If I'm speaking personally.

Yeah. How do you start to instill. Because I have my own way of doing this and what I kind of look for in somebody. How do you start to go, that person has all of the foundation without the confidence to step into it on their own. And then how do you start to translate that and give them coaching advice around that to actually become confident who they are?

I know how I do it. But first of all, I know if someone's good.

Equality of the questions that I've asked the people that are already past that.

Yeah.

So like what I do right now.

With like immediately I can, I can tell if someone you look for from the first couple of minutes, it's to.

Him because one, I just respect his time. But to only have so much time.

It'S if they make the same decisions as me, if I do not understand where they're going in a sales call because I should be able to listen in the same way that you should be able to watch someone coaching, training a dog and go, okay, I get what they're doing here. If you look at it and go, what are they doing? Like then. Then they're either on a different wavelength, which is working, but I can't work with them anyway because I don't understand what they're doing. But if I go, oh, okay, I see what he's doing, then like, I can predict what's going to happen. And if they do that, I'm like, yep, their decision making process is good. Now the execution might be Poor. Like, they might have poor tonality. They might be asking, like, the right question in the wrong way or at the wrong time. But that decision tree, that flowchart is the skeleton is there, and they're making it, but just with small tweaks, they can get better. Now, the people who are actually genuinely really good, like, we have a sales rep who's phenomenally talented, who just doesn't produce phenomenally myself.

Is I think a lot about what are the questions that would make sense.

To bring him in, right? The guy who knows everything, does everything perfectly, but for some reason just contrainded dog, right? And it's really interesting, and there's a bunch of different things, but what I.

Generally do, and I have my notes app on my iPhone, and I just write those questions, and I go, what are the.

Is try and remove the importance of the outcome. And I just go, your only job at the end of each sales call is to think, man, I did my process, and that was a good call. So if we just remove the outcome and then we just insert the new outcome of I'm doing the process. If I do the process, it's good, and I should be able to hand that call to someone, because you can't sell everybody. Like, it's ridiculous to think you can. Even if it's 99%, there's still one who's gonna say no, right? So the moment you realize that you have no control over whether that person buys or not, like, you literally have no control. And to pretend otherwise is, like, extraordinarily, like, egotistical or just insane. So I go, you can't sell them all. There's no point trying. If you sell at 40%, then you should be shocked when someone buys, because 60% chance they don't. And so just focus on doing the process. And that's all I want you to focus on. And at the end of every call, you've done your process, you high five. That's it. If you get to that level, then you'll stop caring about the end result. You'll just start caring about the process, and then you'll become so obsessed with doing the process every time that the end result will come anyway.

So I have a threefold way to approach this that's developed over because part of. Part of my role, especially six, nine months ago at Sniper, I celebrate. I used to do this with you, too, when we had the. When our weekly was more you mentoring me before that kind of switched into, you know, us working on growth and all that stuff for the Company was somebody was struggling and then put him in jail. It didn't start out that way. It did end up that way.

Yeah. Well, Hincks in jail.

Yeah.

So you go to Will. All right.

This is why everybody's afraid.

Yeah. That's literally exactly what it was.

Matt didn't want to be the bad guy. I came on, and then he was like, hey, man, will you have a conversation with this person? And this escalated, and I started to realize what was happening as it continued to happen. But one of the things I've realized.

You hate it too, don't you?

I don't mind it because of the amount of people that have come through the other side.

Yeah.

Kill the game, right?

Like, change people's lives.

Yeah. So now, to be fair, like. And I've looked at the stats, like, it's 60, 40, like, 60 chance you'll come through, but 40%, you're probably done in sales. Like, there's just no question.

It's for the best.

Writing your name on the wall in lipstick for the rest of their life.

Glad I called that guy. I'm so glad you guys understand movie quotes on such a deep level. So within that, which was like, what are the questions that make sense to bring you here? That the way I approach it, first is I go, hey, man, what. Very similar to what you do, Matt. Like, what are you looking to do here? What were you looking for in that? It's like, okay, you understand what's happening. And then if it's still not connecting, I think you will enjoy answering. Will stretch a little bit of the way you think about that. But we'll also allow. Usually the first thing that I do is I go, like, you know your process. We've walked through this. You're actually second guessing yourself. I can literally see your thought process, which is you're going, oh, I should take them here. You're thinking about the way to formulate the question, and then you're going in. This is with people that have practiced, like, thousands of hours, Right. They've been. They role play like an hour a day. They go through this like they. I mean, these are people putting in work, proper students. And they still, like, they can do it in a role play, but. But it's. It's just not connecting. I go, all right, man. I think what's happening is you're actually thinking so much about what you need to do that you're not trusting the fact that you actually know what to do.

You can hear their internal monologue.

Exactly. Right?

Yeah.

So go I will speed them up. And I used to. I. I got this actually from a.

The 12 minute sale.

So I, I do it a little bit differently than the way you do it. I. I took it from one of my boxing coaches, like, probably 15 years ago at this point, because I used to do me to fill in those gaps and build kind of these mental models that will move me forward and actually not waste your time where it's actually more beneficial to you.

I think I totally do a little.

Bit of the same because I was. I was doing way more powerlifting at the time. So it was a little bit more muscular, but I was not as fast and I was not as fluid. And so he was like, dude, you look like a refrigerator.

You just call yourself muscular. Fast and fluid. I mean.

I mean, I did not have eyes, right.

You're welcome when you know. But he was like, hey, you look like a refrigerator that's trying to twist. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't know, man. I think I. I think I know.

No, no.

I was just so, like, tense.

Yeah.

Boxing. There was no fluidity to do it. There was no weight transfer. There was no engagement in the hit. Like, it just. There was a lot of, like, missing on a functional level. He's like, dude. And he just sped me up. He just went, all right, here's what I'm gonna do. And he just kept speeding me up and he put constraints on me in such a way that I had to stop thinking about it. And it was in that process that I could actually start to trust that I just knew what to do is because I was overpaced. So what I'll do is I'll overpace somebody, right? And then I'll go, hey, man, you just did everything correctly, which means that you're literally just overthinking this. So all you have to do is just trust that you know what to do and just run through it, because then you can actually just engage with the process. You can get into a little bit of flow. Quite frankly, I think you're gonna have more fun. You're gonna get a better outcome. And, like, you can get out of your head and stop worrying about everything and feeling any sort of.

And one of the worst things people can do is when you go to the expert and you ask anxiety as.

You go throughout the day. And that with the people that I've gone through, where it's clicked all of a sudden, just become savages. That's what happened with Yash. In addition to some other Stuff like.

Question and, you know, already know the answer for it. Like when, when I catch someone doing that to me, I'm like, you're wasting.

When it clicked, it clicked.

The same with dogs, right? Yeah.

Well, I was gonna say I've got like a third way of explaining the same thing.

Yeah, cool.

Because we're all doing the same thing, but just explain it differently. Is that for me, I. I always go back to the. Excellence is mastery of the basics. And I always talk about. So I did the direct recruiting to SF thing. So, you know, I met the school of infantry and I'm doing all the infantry and I'm like, I hate all this. Right. I can't wait to be kicking indoors and doing cool guy stuff. I pass selection, I'm like, I'm ready to get issued my rocket pack in my laser beam. And then it's like, it's just the same as the infantry, like, but more of it at nauseam until you can do it in your sleep with your eyes closed. You don't have to think about it. And. And I was like, what? And that's when I realized, you know, excellence is mastery of the basics. And that's what I do with as many people as possible. I'm like, we need the basic stuff, like the kindergarten, the ABCs. You need to be able to do that without thinking. And then the more difficult tasks can occupy 100 of your brain while you're doing it. Right. And so if you're still worried about the. The basics, then there's no chance of you doing the. The difficult stuff. Well, get to the basics as like both our time. You want a pat on the back. That's what you're actually looking for is a pat on the back. And it doesn't work. An automatic response that you don't even need to think about. And. And in gunfighter terms, I know it's what you sort of started with. It is. It's that same. You see people like shooting their gun stops and then it's like, oh, like, what going on here? And yeah, and so what I want and what, you know, I'm sure all three of them for everyone. It doesn't at all. But like, I don't need to be. I don't need someone to be nice to me, like in this would do is you feel that last round and you, you're fixing that while I'm taking in new information. Right? Because the basics are happening. That's happening without me having to think. And the difference is I'm using that three seconds to find out battlefield information rather than fixing this minor problem here. Because that's happening automatically and that's what I try and instill with people with. With the dogs when I'm getting them to train. And I imagine it's the same with just. It's everything. What I want is those basic stuff to be like. I don't. That doesn't have to occupy any of my brain power.

Yeah, exactly.

It.

All of my brain power can go to the more complex things which allows me to appear way more competent than I am at the complex things because I'm super competent at the basics. Like the basics I'm all over and I appear like I'm really good at the complex stuff. But only because I. That's. You've got the 100 Focus. Yeah. That's all I'm actually worried about. I'm not worried about any of that basic stuff because that's happening. I'm just finding it done right.

Yeah. I feel like when you have the basics right, if you don't have the basics, you have to worry about what you're doing wrong. When you have the basics, you can start to focus on what am I doing right and how do I do more of that. And I think that shift is where people go from like baseline.

Good.

Starting to get up into an elite level from what I've seen.

Yeah. It's.

It's like that's basics like. And the guy that I first started with who really taught me the. The biggest first chunk of.

Interesting to see if you could formulate some sort of real world ball and dummy shoot. Right. Like where you could sort of like have a thing which is obviously shows you what you're doing wrong. Because that's such a. For those of you don't know, ball and dummy shoot is where you have like dummy rounds in and you can see people flinch for the round. Right.

You don't know whether you've got a live.

Exactly. So it's it.

You just see your really high end dog training stuff. One day I really got to the way he was talking to me and. And what he and people like that.

No, that's not the year of the gun. That's you doing that in anticipation. Right. Like snatching the trigger and stuff. So it would be really interesting to try and like develop something like that where you could really kind of dissect what they're actually doing incorrectly in such a visual and like instantaneous manner. Because I think like shooting like I know for shooting in sales, like it was such a It was such a good paradigm for me because, you know, like I was so used to just like it's like we just shot every day. It's all. It's.

But.

Right.

But it's dry practice as well. That's one of the things that the army drills into that I think I see nobody was doing. And I kept making mistakes, but it was a very technical thing that I was doing and it was my first time doing it. Where else when I say to people, like, don't. You don't have the dog here making all these mistakes in front of him. Put him away and you get good at it by yourself.

Yes.

And then get him out. And it's like, no, but it's playing tug with the dog. Like it's presentation of the reward and all that. I'm like, he doesn't need to be around. Around for your mistakes. You get good at that by yourself. Right? Like set up lines so that you can do it in a straight line and all these kind of do it by yourself, get good at it and then bring in the dog so that he never has to endure your. And I got pretty angry about it and was visibly like, pretty. And he came over to me and he said ups along the way.

This is.

That, that's funny. You mentioned. So this is a parallel of the two worlds, kind of. Which is when I started learning nepq, I went into. Which I don't even think we do anymore. I just went straight into Inner Circle, right? I had no 2.0, no 3.0. I just went straight to Inner Circle. So I went through the entire portal on a weekend, just ripped through the content. I still have all the notes on in notability on my iPad. It's like hilarious, right? And then from there I just started role playing. But I role played for like an hour to an hour and a half every morning. And all I did, I've got an English lab named Sawyer, right. And he would sit at my feet and I would just sell Sawyer. I sold Sawyer so many high ticket packages. I cannot even describe to you. But all I did is I just, I went, what is the. What is the closest way that I can replicate this?

Yeah.

So I was like, I'm going to open Zoom. I'm going to be at my desk. I'm going to have my script up the same way that I would during a sales call because it was still very much using a script back then. And I'm just going to run through that over and over and over again until I start to get Happy with it. Which took months and months and months.

It just seems so obvious though. One thing that used to really show.

Us, hey, we can stop any minute you want. We can just stop doing this.

Like you would come in. Well, it's because being bad at our previous job had pretty severe consequences.

Yeah.

Right. So I think, like, there's a. There's a difference of like catastrophizing failure.

Yes.

Right. That, that happens. And so I still do it, by the way. Yes.

Yeah, I do too.

Yeah. I have a lot. I get like, totally. I get. I spiral with like one thing and.

It will like ask me to train you. This is how I do it. If you want to just go hang out like that.

And then I like, anyway, I fix it. But that's why Kim's good. It's good to chat to Kim.

It's worth talking about because outwardly there can be. I'm sure. Well, maybe I'm not. Maybe, maybe this is just me. But outwardly you can be very confident. You can do what you want. But the reason why I have obsessive, you know, laser focus is because of a critical fear of looking stupid.

Oh, yeah.

Like an absolute, like, you know, all the, all the catch cries, imposter syndrome and all those things, like other crippling fear of being found lacking because in a former job being found lacking was like, you let the team down. You got someone killed. You're like, it's.

It was.

So it's. That is. We can go have a beer, right? But we're. Then we're done here. So do you want to rippling within me that. That fear? And that's why I get hyper obsessed with things. Not only because I'm working to go hang out and just be friends or do you want to shut up? What's something. Yeah, obviously that's my primary motivator. I'm trying to get towards something, but I got a bear chasing me at all times.

Oh, yeah, I had. I. There was a point in time where I, I was. We had like 13 North American accounts. It's not that long ago, by the way. I was running all of those internal meetings every Friday. So every Friday was a 20 minute meeting stacked back to back for about four hours where I went through the numbers and then it was just find the bottleneck, find the issue, fix it or come up with a plan to fix it or set it on the side because we're out of time. And then at the end of the day, I'll come up with a plan to fix it. And it went through all those. And eventually we. We had a guy, Sean Ray, shout out to Sean, if you're listening. Who started riding shotgun with me on these and now has taken over a lot of this role as my role kind of morphs here at Sniper. And he asked me one day because, like, he's like, hey, man, how'd you know that question to ask that person to get there? I was like, oh, I just saw this and this. He's like, yeah, but I wouldn't have done that. He goes, where did that skill come from? And I had no better answer then, like.

And I was like, I'll get back to work. And I was like, that's. That's how I want to be treated. I don't want it. I don't need someone.

I don't know what to tell you, man. Like, nine combat deployments and me being like. Like, over. Like the way you describe it, like, overwhelming pressure and anxiety to make sure that all my guys go home and that we don't this up.

Yeah.

I'm like, that's what drives me. That's why I won't just accept a mediocre answer I don't understand or. Or it's not something that's connect, or I didn't really fix a problem, or I don't understand it is because now that's a.

It's got to cuddle me. And that's not for everyone. Absolutely, that's not for everyone. But that's what I. I hate when people come to structure.

That plays in my brain over and over again. That serves me really well. But it was this overwhelming anxiety for, you know, a decade of, am I measuring up to this? Am I taking care of my guys? Am I doing everything that I need to? And I know we use this to reframe now, but like, to make sure we get the best possible outcome there. And I can be at peace with no matter what happens, because I know I did not slack at all there. That piece of it, I think, has served me really well, but I also have struggled with how do I keep that in check to know when. When is good enough. So how do you guys do that? Especially if we're talking about elite performance. And I know we're going a little long here, but how do you guys start to keep that in check for you personally? Because I think a lot of our listeners are going to fall into that category where that it starts to become June.

They ask a question to appear like they're asking a good question, and they know the Answer. And, you know, they know the answer, and it's just this theater. It's like, hey, don't. Let's not do this. Come to me with you really don't know.

Somewhat anxious when they think about their performance.

On my podcast, the Canine Paradigm, we did a whole episode on Good enough is exactly that. Right? Like, people think of good enough as being, like, close enough. Those are really. And different things. Good enough is exactly that. It's got to be good enough. A cafe, Right. And so, you know, I sold two dogs this morning, right? And they. They were sold at a relative spec, but they were miles ahead of that spec.

Right.

And the people who buy them don't need to know that because they'll figure it out when they start working the dogs. But they had to be good enough to pass now, no matter what conditions got thrown at them in their assessment, they had to pass. Right. So in order to make sure that was going to happen, they're 10 times better than what they needed to be in order to get there, because that's all that was good enough. They have to be good enough at every level. Right. Like, it. At every measure. Which means you have to be exceptional at some and kind of okay at others. Right. Like, there's a. There's a spectrum of things, but you can never be found lacking. It has to be good enough all the time across everything, no matter the conditions. Which means sometimes it has to be exceptional. Right. Sometimes it has to be perfect. Understand? But I think that's like an element of vulnerability where people, you know, like, so that on the day, it can be good enough.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

Matt, how do you approach this?

I don't know. To be honest, I get so obsessed with being the best at what I'm doing. I can't think of anything else. Like, it's like. And it was. To be honest, I wasn't that way in the military. I. I took my job far less seriously than what most other people did, and I think that was probably reflective.

In a few come to you with three questions that you answered so easily. I want to, like, have a bit of confirmation of them younger days.

Younger noted.

Yeah. Like, although I thought the job was serious, I didn't feel like we needed to take ourselves seriously. And in the very, very, very small realm of snipers, where the egos are very high.

Yes.

That was not seen upon as a positive.

Yeah. It was almost like having a personality where you didn't just hate the world was frowned upon.

Yeah. I was like, hey, guys, like, let's be really good at our job. But like we are not better than anybody else. And I. I've tried to reflect that here.

I. And I think in a really. That's interesting. I came to that conclusion later on probably actually towards the very end of my military government career. I did not have that for the first seven years. I like, I didn't. I like you. I was absolute force.

Right. So to show you where I'm kind of at. And I think that is a folly.

Right.

Like on board with everybody. Where it was like you either perform or you're a total piece. You're dead to the world.

I never understood it. I knew it was a thing. I never understood it. Like if someone overseas and they're also a large difference between questions and being questioned.

Yeah.

And I. I say that a lot ago. Hey guys, I don't mind question. I was like, oh, you're a piece. Because you just really put someone in a bad spot. Like. But in terms of like, I just never understood. Like I never understood treating the mechanics different than the shooters and the snipers differently. More. No, I didn't treat them different.

As I actually was way cooler with support. It was actually I held in snipers.

Where I was no.

So not allowed.

We were better and we knew it.

Yes. Like that was the attitude that was the overwhelming. I never had that same thing actually. Where I held people to that standard was actually just our guys. So I was like if you choose to do this right and like to illustrate the model, like it's here.

Right.

Like we have three bullet holes and then a crack down the skull.

Right.

The three bullet holes are for the only three things that you'll find in the recon community, which is pain, misery and suffering. And the crack is for perseverance. And that is your life. That is literally the entire mentality.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I help. Like that standard that I held myself to was so high that I held everybody else to it. The. But the curious thing that you said in there is you're like, I'm so obsessed with being the best. Right. But especially in the role that you're in right now, you could be really good at growing accompanies.

I go being questioned is very different. And I go, you will get a much different answer and a much different tonality.

But because it requires such a constant up leveling of skills and then becoming more and more aware of different things that are happening there. You actually at least from my perspective and. And you might view this different. Which would be a really interesting conversation. I Don't think either you or I could be the best at, but, like.

I'm not married to any particular way of doing things, but I'm teaching a very particular way of doing things.

Any single one thing that we do in cyber.

I hope not.

Exactly. Right.

Yeah.

So it then becomes like, we are very, very, very good at attracting talent and then getting culture pervasive. But when you say, yeah, but you.

Don'T know what I want to be.

The best at, that's what I was curious about. When you say being the best, what are you looking at now?

I'm Thanos, and I'm collecting those stones. You're like, that is my job.

Tell us more.

My job is to collect the greatest human beings and unite them under one singular vision. Like, that is my job. That is my only job. And if I get enough really, really cool people who are really, really good and really, really bought into the snap, right, then, like, there's no amount of people that can stop it from happening.

Yeah, that's fair.

Yeah.

And we're pretty close right now.

Yeah.

Makes me feel good about a fake job you gave me.

Yeah. You like this stuff. Like, so, like, if you want to go do that, I'm go do that. But we're talking about this, you know? But I don't give what Belfort says, so you can go do what you want. We're talking about this way. If you want to do that stuff, you can do that way. But on the elbow, it's not, like, doing anything, but it looks good.

It's important that it's there.

Yeah.

So, like, you're the bedazzled jean jacket.

Yeah. The vajazzle. Yeah. So, like, that's what. That's what I have to be good at. Like, I have to be, like, the guy that is out in front of rallying the troops and, like, attracting, like, through, like, pure force of will. Like, come to me if you want to live. You know what I mean?

Like, that's interesting, because I. I have really had a thought about this over the last month or two, as my role is shifting at sniper and gone. What is. What is the overarching thing that I didn't use terms of, like, want to be the best at, but, like, how do I provide the absolute most value here to our team?

Yeah, well, I think we'll go over that a lot. Like, we have planning sessions for the next 48 hours.

Yeah. But yours in collecting people, mine, actually, I think is a little bit different, which is how do I empower those people to Step fully up into what they're capable of in each position.

Yeah.

Now, how we do that is. Is variable, and company can't teach that stuff.

I don't know that stuff. Right. So let's talk about this.

I think it all collects and depends on the person. Roll all that stuff and have some thoughts. And what. We've already been doing it, but it's. It's interesting where it's almost like, you can't go wrong.

Right.

And I look at this over and over again. Like, I just don't think you. And to the point, like, we've all been on great teams. We've all been on, okay teams. And like, I. I've been on bad teams. Right.

Like, comes back to, like, in my mind, like, I was. I. I get angry during training. It's not angry, but I. I think.

It boils down to, I think, something that you talk about Matt all the time, which. How do we set that unifying vision where we're moving towards it, but also, I think with a very, very smart people. One of the things that I actually overdid as my role shifted and I look at it, and it was a learning lesson for me, reflecting back on it over the last couple months, because I did a lot of work in a relatively short amount of time to transition my role over to Jeff and to Sean. But I was like, oh, I need to prepare them for success. And I actually got a little too obsessive on it, and it was like, no, no, these are really smart people. I need to just let them come in there. But I was so concerned with how do I make sure that I can hand this off in the right way during trainings.

A fair bit when people ask the same question a lot to them, that.

I actually overdid it a little bit. Whereas I feel like you go the opposite way. You're like, right.

Like, if I get to the inner circle and I'm training people and the same people ask the same questions, I.

Go, hey, man, here's what we need to do.

I mean, there's two ways to teach people how to swim, right? Chuck them in. You can either chuck them in and you'll probably figure it out, or you can allow them to go step by step. And I think both ways are valid. However, like, you would choose some people to throw in, and you choose some people to walk in. Yeah, right. Like my son, I would never throw in. It's not how his operates. My daughter, I could throw her in, and she would, like, that's. Me and her. Are Very similar personalities. She looks just like my wife, acts just like me. My son looks exactly like me. Is she. He is my wife. Right. Like, like the same sort of things. So, like, it just depends on who you are. And, and sort of like, I like to figure out, okay, well, like, you know, like with James, like, we're partners, but I, like, I've known him for a long time and I've mentored him for a long time. And how I treat him in terms of, like, when I was sort of mentoring him, three different things, like, was very step by step. I mean, and he's very intelligent, so he picks up things really, really quickly. But, like, I would not throw shitloads of responsibility on him immediately. I would parse them off, you know? But like, with, like, I bring Pat on and I'm like, hey, dude, I'm overwhelmed. I can't do this anymore. Like, just go do it. And he's like, oh, okay, like, I'll go do this. And it's. It's like, I have ultimate. I just know it's going to work.

Yeah.

I just know. It's like, oh, yeah, sweet. Like, Will's gonna. Come on. All right, will you go do this now? Let me know if you have questions.

Yeah. You threw literally with zero.

Like, if you want to learn this, then, like, get obsessed with it and just dive in.

This is how you do it over and over again. I was like, hey, man, we're thinking about this other retreat came about. You're like, hey, I'm thinking about a retreat. I was like, yeah, that sounds like good idea, man.

He's like, oh, yeah, I'm glad you mentioned it.

You wanna, you wanna take care of that? I was like, yep. Do we have like a budget? You're like, yeah, I don't know, man. Like 20 to no more than 50 grand. I was like, that's a pretty big.

Spread, but okay, and do it and make it everything that you need to be like, this is your world now.

Like, become third running with now $120,000 later. So that was a learning lesson. But I. I think actually I preferred that. Here's the. Here's the thing that needs to happen.

You're a grown ass man and I'll work back, of course, like that, but not everybody.

But I don't think that's totally fair. Right.

Oh, the thing is, this is the thing about snipers is snipers are the only people in the military who are told what to do, not how to do it.

Fair.

That is the. There is a mandate I need this done. Nobody understands how they do things or. You know what I mean? There's two. The best.

And.

And I think, like, with everything, if you want to be extraordinarily successful, many nuanced compartmentalization when it comes to snipers as a skill set that like the. The upper management, like the. The brass, they. They can't know. So just go, oh, we just need this done. Something. You just have to obsess over it. Like when I learned nepq, like I was. And then snipers plan, they don't tell what they're doing. They just go, this is what we need to facilitate. And you go do it. So like that. That is how I function best. I go, like, just give me the outcome. I will try. If you have a blueprint, like, I'll give. Give it to me so I can watch it and then I can try and figure it out myself. But I think, like, for me, that's how I. That's how I do it best. I much prefer that way. I don't like having to follow strict systems and processes in the beginning. I like to kind of make my mistakes. I think mistakes are extremely important to the learning process as long as you're tracking it and kind of stuff. So, like, that's how I prefer. But again, you just got to pick and choose. Like, I wouldn't, you know, like even Ben, for example, like, tossing him in the deep end is not super beneficial to his personality. So, like, we have to, like, it's been a very systematic, like, increasing of responsibilities. Right. And a lot of that's happened from like, me and James because I brought Ben in, like, he was like the first big hire that we did from a pure administrational standpoint. And so it's been a very titrated sort of responsibility over the last 12 months. Because we hired him in January of last year. Yeah. Right. So, like, it was much smaller company then. So there's been a really good titration to throw him into this. What it is today would. Would be very difficult because he's so analytical and so like, process driven that to drop that man into the madness would. Would be very difficult. But if you can do it in the right way, he'll like, crush the game, you know, so everyone's just different. Yeah.

Makes sense.

Yeah, we've gone pretty long.

Yeah.

Good spot to wrap it up there.

Yeah. And that's a good spot as any.

Yeah, Sounds good.

So blown away by it. I was like, whole. I was like, what is happening? If you like this kind of content guys, make sure you comment down below. Let us know what your thoughts and some things that we went over today. How do you like to be trained? How do I to train people? What are some things that you want to be mentored in? How do you want to be mentored in them? Yeah, that's an interesting. I could not believe that a single person in one lifetime had put that together. I was like, it's conversation. Yeah.

Let me know if you like the style of the YouTube videos that are out. Because I do have a real job. It's not a totally fake job. I am doing stuff.

A real job. Literally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, guys, make sure you like subscribe and notification, but all that kind of good stuff. If you are listening, listen to this audio only. Make sure you hit the sub button and share this with someone who could find some benefit from it. But thanks for watching, thanks for listening, and we'll speak to you guys soon.

In bite work. You know the person who's getting bitten by the dog? Oh, my God. Who set that up?

So, Matt, the question that you asked before we started filming, how many special operations guys does it take to set up a podcast? We have not answered that question.

I will place my finger here for the entire time.

Yeah, we need a different setup in here.

It's brilliant.

It is brilliant. It is, like, beyond. I was like, wow, if you figure this out, you. You're multimillionaire. Like, there's no if, ands or buts about it. And I remember the way that Jeremy thought of me, looked at me, treated me. As soon as I asked one question, I said, hey, man, are you doing this because of this? And he goes, yeah, he goes. And 15 years are the only person to figure that out. And I was like, huh? It makes a lot of sense. And he was like, yeah, yeah, it does. And I was like, cool. Anyway, that. And then, like, a week later, he's like, hey, do you want to be my sales guy?

You want to be best friends?

Yeah, we just become better friends.

Yeah. And I think, like, with mentoring, my. My thought process on mentor. I've said this before, is the worst case scenario is that they stay your mentor. Yeah, that is the worst case. They need to become a friend that you can ask a favor of, and they need to be invested in your success. So, like, if I want to get, like, if I get mentoring from Jeremy, like, Jeremy is my sales mentor. He is the master now. I have no intention, need one, or desire to be as good at human sales. And I've Been very upfront about that. I am. I will get better, naturally, of my progression, but I will not attempt to. Right. Like, I would like.

It's all downhill from here.

I'm good enough. Right? Right. Like, I've reached the point of diminishing returns, but it was just like, okay, like, if I can do this right and I can make Jeremy invested in my success, then at the point in which I ask him for a favor which makes me more successful or for him to do something, then me achieving it makes him more successful because my success is hinged on him. And so when I went to him and I was the sales guy and I said, I can run this company better than the people who are company currently running it. Give it to me and I will fix this. And he was like, okay. And that was it. And I fired everybody.

Fired everybody. All right, so I. I have another question, and this is based on a conversation I had with one of our guys earlier. I did a coaching call with him, I don't know, probably about six months ago now. And then he stopped me as I was. As we were walking. I was walking, go take, take a leak. But he's like, hey, man, thanks so much for that session. He's like, you. You figured that out in like a very short amount of time. And I was like, well, yeah, man. As soon as I saw what you had going on, it was easy. I was like, you have a wealth of experience. You've been very successful in another place. Like, you were so clearly on the role play that we did. And I saw within the first like three minutes trying to be somebody else, that you were second guessing yourself. So I look at, like, the difference between being really good and being elite. At the point of where you understand what you're doing so well, you can just let your personality, your style, everything else come out, but you trust that you're still going to get the same, if not better outcome. Yeah, that, I think, is a thing that a lot of people struggle with, especially inside of sales, inside of business, really, performance in general, which is even the people that start to understand the process, which is why you can role play for. For 12 hours a week, you can study any PQ. You can do all that.