The Psychology She Uses to Win Every Call

Hey everyone, hello, two secs, just gonna ping this group, make sure everyone knows this is on. Um, there is this link. Okay. Can you hear me okay? I just switched over audio. Yep. All right. So welcome to the Sales Equation, where we're focusing, uh, I mean, predominantly I can help you guys with anything sales related, but predominantly where, uh, I can really help is the EQ, emotional intelligence, human behavior, human or behavioral intelligence, like that sales psychology component, you know, like it's not that one is less important than the other, both are important, but a lot of our training that gets us to a certain point is very focused on what to say. So scripts and word tracks, what do I say when they say this, as opposed to understanding how a person thinks and feels, being able to predict and influence future behavior, and being able to put yourself in a position where, for lack of better words, we're able to kind of manipulate the outcome as much as possible. I don't like the word manipulate because it sounds unethical, but I mean in an ethical sense, because we know that most people who we interact with in a sales conversation, in the area of their life they're having a conversation with you about, they're not necessarily making the best decisions possible in that area of their life, or they probably wouldn't be in the situation that they're in. So take a person who is unfit, overweight, unhealthy, it's impacting them, like, you know, objectively, they haven't made the the best decisions that they could in that area of their life. And we're here to kind of figure out why that is and help them. But it's like, even though they might want the change, you know, the behavior at the end of the conversation is often uncomfortable. And I really just want that, that next step to feel really natural for them because I don't want to deal with objections and things if I don't have to. It doesn't mean that I've got an issue doing that, but like, if I don't have to, it just in my mind is a better experience for both of us. You know what I mean? Like, imagine we get to the end of that call and to that person, the next step just feels like it makes sense as opposed to this resistance behind it. So that's really where, you know, I want to help people or sales reps develop their knowledge is in how, you know, how do I get inside somebody's, somebody's head? And rather than just focus on what to say, like, who to be and how do I help them kind of make an identity transition throughout my conversation. So you guys cool with that? We all do that kind of stuff anyway, by the way, just typically unconsciously, and anything we're doing unconsciously, we can't really utilize intentionally. And so it's about just bringing this stuff to our awareness and then developing it so that it becomes a tool in our sales toolkit. Okay. Um, so yeah, today we can do like role play or snippets of call reviews or, you know, Q&A, problem solving. Basically, I want to help you guys solve problems, and whatever's going to help you to do that the best, I'm, I'm down for it. So just pop up your hand if you've got something you want to go over with me. Go over with me. Don't wait till like 5 minutes before the end to put your hand up. Like, if you think there's something you want to go over, just put your freaking hand up, okay? Uh, because I'll kind of decide how much time I allocate to people based on how hands are up. And so if 5 of you put your hand up 10 minutes from the end, then you know you're not going to get what you need. Awesome. Rachel, Bradley, Angel. Rachel, how can I help?

I know last week we were talking mainly about like pride and anger and then wearing masks and then wheeling out when they're doing that. But what about like more towards the bottom when they're coming in and they're like, man, I'm so ashamed of myself, I don't get to spend any time with my kids and you know, I'm miserable, I'm working so many hours. But some of them are like that, and then that's kind of where it stops. But some, I feel like they almost seesaw, like, I've accepted that I need some help now, and that's why I'm on the call. Can they kind of seesaw between the lower levels and the higher, or is that just me not understanding?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. So I think I understand what you mean. It's sort of like, in theory, that type of language might indicate that someone's in a low, lower level state. And then based on what I've spoken to you about previously, that, you know, those are typically disempowered states and where people are, they're going to be resistant to change. So it all depends on the place that this ownership is coming from. Okay, so we all, I'm sure a lot of us have heard of cause and effect and ownership and responsibility. And I'll, I mean, I'll share my screen just so that it's visual for everybody. But if we look at, if we lean on the framework that I often lean on, which is like the map of consciousness by David Hawkins, any of these states— what's happening? Are you guys seeing the right screen? Bring the call back here.

Yeah, we can see it.

Yeah, I don't know what's happening. Picture in picture is open because you're screen sharing. I have no idea what that means. Hang on, let me just repeat that. Maybe I did something wrong.

I guess my, my biggest question on that is, do you treat them differently? Do you have to like kind of cuddle them a little bit?

And no, so I want, uh, hang on, what is Google Meet updated or something? Now I don't know how to drive it. Now I got people in my waiting room.

It's showing us your right screen, the right screen on our end.

Thank you. Okay, I'm just— I'm over 30 now, which means I can't operate certain things. Um, yeah, so the first thing I just wanted to say about that is like, like somebody— like, language alone is just one piece of communication. So I don't want to make an assumption based off the language that I'm hearing, like, um, oh, this person is expressing shame about something, then they're in a low-level state, because shame in itself is a very unproductive emotion. And a lot of times when people are feeling like a deep shame and it's, and it's, and it's controlling them in a way, they're overwhelmed by that, they're not often talking to you about it. Because the behavioral tendency of a person in shame is to like eliminate themselves, to hide away, to avoid. It's, it's why, it's one of the main reasons that prospects ghost, especially if you've had a conversation with someone who was like, oh my God, I really want this, this sounds like exactly what I need, I know I need to do something, and we've created a lot of that tension, we've held the mirror up, they know what they need to do, But maybe they are still like afraid and we don't know that, or maybe they've got no money and the shame of that is holding them back from letting us know like, "Hey, I don't have the money." And we let them go, we're gonna have a follow-up tomorrow and collect the money, and then what happens? Crickets. A lot of times that's because what that shame has unfortunately led that person to do is instead of opening up and saying like, I really want to do this, like I don't have that amount of money, is it— could we potentially like break it up, like how could we figure this out? Instead of them being in a resourceful state, they go, oh my God, I'm absolutely going to do this, just give me till tomorrow, I'm going to move some money over, like can you give me a call at this time, yep, I'm so excited to chat, and then you just don't hear from them. So shame's a really unproductive emotion. So the reason I want to bring that up is if somebody is, is like If it's disempowered ownership, like you, they're sort of, they're really beating themselves up and I'm just like, I'm a piece of shit. It's like that, that might not be, that's like disempowered ownership almost. Yeah, they're like really internalizing whatever is going on. Yeah, but I can talk about that same type of scenario from a place of courage. You know, I mean, I mean, even opening up to you about that is an act of courage, isn't it? Because typically a person who's feeling shame about something something, will hide away, will avoid. I don't want to talk about it, or they're unwilling to even admit that it's a problem. So the fact that this person is like, hey, this is a source of shame for me, but like, I am almost aware that maybe the way I've been, uh, dealing with this in the past isn't serving me. And so instead, I'm going to like step into this place of courage, and I'm gonna just tell you what's up, even though I feel deeply ashamed about this thing that I'm talking about. That is courage. Okay. And so now what I want to make sure that I do though is like in that conversation, I want to, I want to bring to their awareness that that is an act of courage and I want to anchor them in that state because what I don't want them to do is end up almost internalizing this so much that they shift into that low level state. So it's just those really simple things like, I mean, Matt Ryder's here, he's on like a marriage offer and there are guys that are opening up to him about some like pretty awful things that they've done, maybe infidelity throughout their marriage and things that a lot of people, for, you know, I can appreciate why, keep to themselves. They're opening up about it. And so it's just those little things like, well, hey man, like, I really appreciate the, uh, the ownership, or, um, well, hey, kudos to you for actually being willing to talk about this, because as I'm sure you know as a man yourself, what a lot of us tend to do sometimes as guys with things like this is we just We just avoid it. We don't want to talk about it. And you know what, we avoid, persist. So it's like, it's refreshing to have a conversation with someone like yourself who's at that point in his life where he's like, you know what, enough's enough, it's time to do something different, right? You know, it's those little things of like where they might be expecting, because this is what they've been doing, beating themselves up. They might be anticipating judgment. They might be anticipating, you know, their concern is like I already view myself as kind of a shit person, then if I open up to you about this and you're kind of like, "Oh man, what? For 30 years you've been cheating on your wife? What a piece of shit." Yeah, now there's more evidence that I'm this awful person and now it's not a secret anymore and oh my God, that's emotionally painful. Yeah, and so for me to instead meet that with like, "Okay, well, I mean, I have conversations with guys every week in exactly the same position." Yeah, they're like, ah, this person's not judging me, maybe I'm not a piece of shit. Oh, that's a good point. Okay, so I'm just wanting to listen to— is this— does it feel like this is coming from an empowered place of like, you know what, I accept that this is on me, you know, I have messed up, I should have done something about this earlier, but I've decided enough is enough, like I just it's time to make a change. Yeah, yeah, I'm deeply ashamed about it, and like, I'm talking about it and all this kind of jazz, but like, it's time to do something. Do you see what I mean? I can talk about— because the people in these higher level states are focused on growth and change and possibility, and so I can open up and say, this thing is a source of shame for me, but I want a new reality. That is high level. Does that make sense, Rachel? That is the distinguishing or they're gonna break it down like that. Whereas this person is in the having a pity party, like, oh, woe is me, and I'm just this, I'm this like awful person, you know. If you think about the buying pocket, you've got people that are too far out the outside the buying pocket this way, where there's almost too much belief. Like, yeah, I'm having a conversation with you about maybe getting some help to solve this problem, but like, I'm pretty sure I could figure this out for myself. I'm just more curious about what you guys have to say. There's too much confidence, and oftentimes it's false confidence. And then you've got people who are outside the buying pocket the other way, where there's not enough belief. Yeah, and a person in shame, for example, is it— they're, they're like, they're starting to believe, or they might already believe, that like, I'm the problem. Or they're like, look, there's a really good chance here that I'm just broken. And if that's their belief about themselves, then what difference does it make when I lay out a, a program that's going to help them solve the problem if their belief is, I'm the problem. I don't believe that there's really anything that I can do that's going to change things here because I'm just— there's something wrong with me. Make sense? Yeah. And so with those people, I've got to build them up. And I think that's the difference, is a lot of people go into sales conversations going, I've got to create doubt and I've got to get like, you know, I've just got to make, you know, doubt, doubt, doubt. I'm going to create this like massive gap. And it's like some people need to be built up, not everyone needs to be brought down. Yeah, it's almost like they've got to have the belief in themselves that they can do it, but not on their own. Like, I believe that with a little bit of help I can do this. I just need a bit of help. Okay, so there's that part because I think that's an important distinction to have is that it's not just language, it's what's the meaning here, what are the beliefs here that are like behind it, and is, is this person talking about this from a disempowered or an empowered place. Okay, now what was the other part to the question?

You kind of talked about it a little bit, like we have to treat the, you know, the, um, the pride and anger people, we have to lean out. But these people, you said we have to build them up.

So I think you kind of answered the question a little bit. Exactly. So when we've got someone who might be in like pride or, or anger, this outward energy, and, and certainly pride is like, uh, I'm not the problem, everyone else and everything else is. I've got to figure out, just things aren't working the way that they, that they are. So this person is— there's an abdication of responsibility and ownership there. There's, uh, there's, you know, maybe they're not, uh, accepting, you know, the, the, the real reality. They're, they're defending this kind of like false reality, this false, um, like image. And yeah, I need to, uh, kind of tactfully seed doubt and help this person come to a place where they're actually willing to admit, hey, I have a pain point, I have a problem that I want to do something about. And then the next part of that is, hey, I, yeah, okay, I'm willing to also admit that maybe I haven't got it all figured out as far as how to actually solve this. Yeah, okay, that's true. It's like I need those two things, but that's like I got to chip, chip away at that. Get them to like drop that mask and go, all right, yeah, things aren't great actually. Whereas with the other person, the people in the more lower level states like shame, like guilt, like, and grief, etc., they're more willing, they're more likely to be really like open about what's going on, um, but these negative like thoughts and emotions that are creating this state of being are weighing them down. And I've got to be like, hey, like, nah, you got this, you got this. Makes sense?

Yep.

Yeah, okay. Um, did that answer your question? Do you feel like you've got what you need for out of that? Yeah, that was helpful. I appreciate that. Awesome. Okay, um, and, and as well, that's not from a place of like coddling them, so to speak, or like, oh my God, yeah, that must have been so hard for you, like No, the way that I nurture them is through, is through like, you know, gently helping them to take ownership and being like, well, hey, you know, yeah, kudos to you for the self-accountability, for I suppose looking back and realising there are things that maybe we should have done that we didn't. But I mean, we can't change the past. All we can really do is decide, alright, how How am I going to change things moving forward then? You know, so do you see how I'm like, there is nurture there where I'm like, you're not a piece of shit, but I'm also not buying into this story at all. Okay. Yep. And that's the difference. That's like that balance that sometimes we have to figure out. Sometimes we go from one extreme to the other. We go one extreme where we just slap the shit out of people, and maybe that's what we need because maybe up until this point we've been too much of a pussy. But we might swing way too far to the left and suddenly we're like really pissing people off and they're like, "F you, asshole." Like, it's like, "Oh, okay, maybe I've gone a bit too far this way." And then, you know, we kind of swing between the two until we find that kind of middle, middle ground. And, you know, the middle ground or the balance isn't the same for everybody. It's like it might be a bit here for this person and a bit more here this way, but we do kind of find this sweet spot, so to speak, this sweet spot range. Okay. All right, Bradley, how can I help?

Yeah, so I kind of guess I wanted to take it in the other direction because I'm struggling right now with my consequence question. And the whole point of that, of course, is to unearth negative emotion, I suppose, right? Because we want to show how—

What do you— Like, what are you, what's happening when you ask a consequence question?

Well, so, so, you feel like you're struggling with it because, because my solution is not, it's not like a strict ROI kind of solution, nor is it necessarily like fixing a specific problem, although like, what's the problem with the context, but like what's happening? Well, that, that's exactly what, so, so then what happens is people say, I'll say the, like, what would happen, you know, if you didn't take action on this, you didn't apply and you never you never got your doctorate and things kind of continue as they have been for, who knows, the next like 5, 10, or more years, what happens? You know, what happens then? And then I had— I spoke with two master's level counselors today, and one of them basically in so many words told me that it would make no difference whatsoever, that he just was just like, yeah, like, it's not really about getting the degree. I mean, I could probably be fine without it.

Yeah, so what does that, what does that tell us that we've missed upstream?

Well, I suppose it means that I didn't do a good enough job eliciting a problem.

Yeah, because if I had genuinely admitted to you and accepted that there is something about my situation that I do not like and I'm unwilling to accept it anymore, it's time to make a change, then if if I was to, if someone was to ask me a consequence question about like, all right, well, suppose we don't make a change, where does that lead? Would I really respond in that way?

Like, oh, I mean, yeah, well, yeah, fair enough. I mean, because I mean, even in the problem awareness, that was a challenge too, because I was just like, so, you know, what's making you feel like having a master's and the kind of the situation that you find yourself might not be enough for you? He kind of— he punted that too. He was just sort of like, oh, you know, I mean, like, I'm not sure that's the right— he literally told me, he's like, I don't really know that's the right question. It's not so much that it's not enough, it's just that, you know, I, I'm just thinking of ways to expand my level of knowledge, my clinical abilities, and maybe—

okay, that's, that's in— that, that's actually kind of helpful information a little bit because— so there's, there's two kind primary drivers typically for people. There are— they're either running away from pain, like that's their prime— like, look, there's always a bit of both, right? But I'm talking like primary driver. I mean, they're running away from pain, that's kind of where my— a lot of my focus is, and, and, and that's my primary driver. Or there might be something about where I'm at that like I'm not 100% happy with, but it's like not my primary driver. It's more focusing on like Uh, it's more future focused and, and where I want to go. And now oftentimes when— if people are like, you know, I'll use a different industry to articulate it, but in, in health and fitness, I might have some— somebody who's really, really overweight and really unhappy with, you know, they've got no confidence now and just they're really miserable about where they're at with their health. They're looking to go from like bad to good. 0 to 100, okay, or 0 to 10, so to speak. Now the other person might be that person who is like, I don't know, use me as an example, like I'm, I'm like of health, yeah, like I, I, I'm pretty fit, I'm pretty strong, like I don't mind the way my body looks. But if I was to look at like someone who is wanting to go on stage and, and be like a bodybuilder All right, that would be the next level for me. So if I decided that was something that I wanted, and you know, you kind of asked me like, if something happened that's made you feel like kind of the way you look right now is not enough, I would probably say like, oh no, I mean, it's not that. I suppose I'm just like, when I look at, when I think about the idea of really getting to that point with my fitness, it just, there's just something about that that is making me want to accomplish it, to be able to be like, ah, cool, I did that. Like, it just— the idea of being able to put money to get to that stage, like, that's really cool. So he's sort of saying to you that, like, my driver's not I'm really unhappy with where I am. My driver is about what I want to work towards. And we should get that driver right at the top in, like, connection is understanding, like, what are they looking for? And often people will open up about like either the— what they say will often give you insight into that primary driver. So if in their language that I can understand their focus is on something they're unhappy with and like a problem, then pain, the running away from pain, is possibly the, the bigger, like, the primary driver. Whereas if they're more like, um, like, you know, if we use that same example, I got on and instead of saying like, oh, I just, I, I, I really need to lose weight, like I just really uncomfortable in my clothes, want to lose weight, kind of problem pain focused, versus if I said like, well, you know, I mean, I'm pretty happy with the way that I look now, I just, um, I mean, uh, yeah, I guess I just want to, I want to find a way to get to the next level, I want to be ripped, I want to be shredded, like I want to be able to do that. Where's my focus there? It's more on something I'm like running wards, isn't it? Okay. And so then with that, um, we— yeah, does that make sense?

I mean, I, yeah, it totally makes sense. But I did that too. I, I, because I, after that I pivoted to like solution awareness. So like, okay, so suppose that, you know, you could have what you wanted, you got your doctorates and, and—

hang on, we, we— why are we in solution awareness though if we didn't get what we needed up there? Like, let's, let's role play it. I think that would be— that would probably be— that would—

okay, where do you want to start?

So I think just start at the start. Yeah, because every, yeah, every outcome leads down to like an effective consequence. You know, if I haven't got what they're looking for, if I don't adequately understand where they are, if they haven't accepted I don't like where I am, I want to go the next level, I haven't got that pain point, the problem, etc., then I'm going to get to that stage and I'm not going to have enough and it's going to fall flat. So I want to make sure that like at the top of the call, the most important part, we're getting the outcomes we need there. So can I have someone be, just so I can observe undistracted, can I have someone be a prospect for Bradley? Let's figure out what's going on. Matthew. Okay, amazing. Don't be, don't be too hard or anything like that. Like, like I'd say make Bradley work a little bit, but don't be impossible because I more want to hear structure. I want to hear how Bradley kind of looks for that. And then maybe Bradley, just give Matt Ryder some context on like someone like that. And just so he can kind of be a good prospect for you, so to speak.

Sure. Yeah. So Matthew, this— I sell a doctoral program in clinical psychology for people that want to be clinical psychologists. And a lot of my— well, in this case, the client, the client is a master's level counselor. So he is— he's an LPC counselor and he has a private practice already. He's been in, you know, been practicing for, I don't know, like 5, 10, 15 years or something. And so he's looking to perhaps get to the next level, um, and expand his skill set, his knowledge, his diagnosing abilities, stuff like that. Does that, does that make sense? I can't— you're muted, I can't hear you.

All right, how about now? Can you hear me now?

Yeah, there you go.

Yeah, cool. No, I got you, brother. So yeah, and whenever you're ready.

Okay, ring ring. Hello, Matthew, it's Bradley. Bradley here with XYZ University. I just had to get back to you here. I looks like you inquired about possibly getting a doctorate in clinical psychology and becoming a clinical psychologist. Is that, is that right?

Yeah.

No. Yeah, I remember that.

Yeah.

Okay. And where did you actually find this? Was it online? Was it like one of the— was it Facebook or LinkedIn? Oh, through LinkedIn? Yeah, a lot of people, you know, find us through LinkedIn. Uh, so I mean, this call is pretty basic, really, just to get a better sense of, you know, where you're at now, just in terms of your career, and then see where you might want to go forward from here. Would, would that help?

Yeah, that, that makes sense.

Yeah.

Okay, well, say a bit more, uh, Matthew, about, you know, where you're at and with your career and your life and education.

Can you ask that question again?

I'm sorry. Yeah, tell me a bit more about where you're at right now with, you know, your career and your life and your education.

Yeah, well, I have, uh, I have my master's obviously, and then, um, and I'm looking to, you know, I'm looking to more so just increase my practice. I have my own practice, which is doing pretty well. I feel like it's, I feel like it's doing pretty well overall. Um, and yeah, just thinking about, okay, what is the next, like, what would the next step be? It just seemed like it would, the next step seems pretty obvious to go ahead and do that as well.

Yeah. Oh, it sounds like, sounds like that's fairly decent and it's like you're, you're doing good work and you enjoy it. What, what's making you feel like, you know, maybe you want to get to that next level and and get your doctorate.

Uh, yeah, I mean, I don't feel like— I don't know, I just feel like if you're like— I feel like if you're at a point now where, you know, you're making good money, things are decent, it's like, why not? Why not try to just go to the next level there?

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest reasons why I think a lot of people come to us is they're just kind of looking to scale their business, you know, get that, that highest level doctoral degree. And so suppose that, that all that came to you, you know, you, you got your doctorate, you're a clinical psychologist, you know, you're, um, you How would you want it? What would that look like? How would your life be different? What would change?

Of course. All right. Pretty— not bad. Not bad. Like move through process like pretty well. I think there's definitely some gaps though. And in refining those or plugging those, you're gonna have a much easier time towards the end. So before I give any kind of like feedback though, like I want one thing that Rachel, you're there. Rachel, what's one thing you feel Bradley did well?

He was very conversational.

Yeah, I would agree. I think that's pretty conversational for sure. What's, um, Joey, you, you, I think you've been here for a minute, like, uh, what's one thing you feel Bradley could improve on just outside looking in?

Um, maybe a little bit more confidence in the voice. Like, it sounded like it was conversational, but like a little bit of like uncertainty as well. So maybe being a little bit more, like, a little bit more concise, a little bit more confidence.

Yeah, okay. I think, uh, is it what, what caused you to feel like maybe he was a little uncertain?

Um, or maybe a lot of upward inflection at the end of, like, sentences and statements.

Okay, I don't know if I would have, like, 100% agree with that. I think that maybe, if it's possible, that, uh, Bradley's got quite cool, calm, collected, quite a composed tone that maybe that felt a little that way. Like, Matthew, would you agree? I wouldn't say that's something that stood out to me, the obvious.

I think the avatar that he was talking to, like, that looked like— that's pretty normal. I don't feel like I felt it.

Yeah, yeah. So I think up until, like, this, the definitely the way in which you're moving through your process, like, I liked Bradley. I think that I can see where we might be missing some of the important outcomes that you're going to want before we get to the end of the call. And it started really about the frame. So I didn't mind the, you know, it looks like you responded to something and here's sort of the reason why, how did you come, you know, find us, like that was all fine. And to Rachael's point, quite conversational. I think the transition between the, oh yeah, like a lot of people find us on LinkedIn and into your frame was a little bit abrupt and then the frame was quite vague. So I think that, yeah, you know, because think about the frame. The frame isn't just like a, like the frame is sort of like, hey, here's how this call is going to go. Yeah, that's one piece of it. And like, I don't know if we're going to do that adequately just the way in which we like articulated it. I like the start of it where it's like, you know, call today is really pretty simple. It's more an opportunity for me to understand sort of like where you're at now with your, you know, in terms of your career and really where you're looking to go, just to see what that gap looks like and if we can help. And then towards the end of the call, if I feel like we can and you feel like this maybe ticks the boxes as far as what you feel like you might need, then we can talk about some possible next steps from there. Would that help? Okay, and then you could even slide in a, you know, where you're at now, what you're looking for, even some of the reasons why you might be looking to kind of make a transition in the first place. So I can see the, you know, understanding why they would even want to do this in the first place. And so now what do I really do? I'm really kind of laying out like here, you know, this is exactly how the conversation is going to going to go. And then, like, where do we get an understanding of, like, what he's looking for? When do we even— when do we ask that question?

Yeah, I mean, that's normally— I, I did that in solution awareness because, uh, yes, situation is just kind of like what is that, what is up to now, problem awareness. So, like, what's—

even that, it was kind of like, give me an overview where you're at in your career, in your life, like very, very vague. And so I think what would make it easier for you is if like, if we just do a really quick role play. Matthew, can you be the same prospect again? I would, I would do it something like similar to this. I'll just pick up from the frame because I had no real issue with the before that.

Yeah.

So look, Matthew, just so you're aware, today's call is pretty simple. It's really just an opportunity for me to kind of understand like more about where you're at in terms of career now. Really what you're looking for, you know, where you're looking to go with your career as far as like next level and kind of what that gap looks like. Even some of the reasons why you might be looking to make that transition and, you know, get your— what is it— psychology doctorate or whatever in the first place, just to see if we can help. And then towards the end, if you feel like, hey, this might be what I'm looking for to sort of take my career to that next level, then we can like talk about some possible next steps. Would that Did that help?

Yeah, I feel like that would help.

Okay, and so I wanted to ask as well, like, what I guess, what was it that you saw or heard, what did you read on LinkedIn that made you feel like, you know, hey, might be worth looking into this, into this further?

Yeah, I saw that, I saw that there was like a testimonial or there's somebody who was talking about you guys and that how they said, yeah, they grew their practice from where it was to where they want to be, but they just needed to like go through a process and be able to do that as well.

All right, and so I don't want to make any assumptions, but are you at a point where you're potentially looking to kind of grow your practice, take it from like kind of where you are now and somewhere you want to be, or what is it you're looking for?

Yeah, no, that would make sense. Yeah, for me that makes sense.

And like, why? Like, just high level, like, why, why is that?

Uh, yeah, because I feel like I'm kind of at a point now where I've been consistently hitting what I have been hitting over the months, and I feel like I'm ready for the next step.

Can I ask, like, like, as far as where you're at now, you practice now?

Yeah, it's about $100K per, per month.

Yeah.

And, you know, just essentially been hitting that for the past year, so I just feel like it's, you know, what do I need to do for myself in the best position to get the next level?

Yeah, got it. And then, so, uh, all right, so we'll pull up— well, I want to pull up there and, and just draw to your attention where— all right, cool, I did get confirmation from this human at least that I want to grow my practice. Okay, sweet. Now I can go like a, a why, or like in what way, because grows kind of vague. Like, what it grow in what way? Like, you know, business owners are reaching out every day saying they want to grow their practice. Like, in what way? What do you mean? Oh, well, increase my revenue or something like that. Okay, cool. So where are you at now? So Matthew, because kind of vague and like, I've, you know, been consistently hitting this point for X period of time, and so I immediately just transitioned a situation. We're just like, well, what's— what point's that? Oh, $100K. Okay. And then it's like, how long have we been at that point for? The last year? Yeah, I don't, I don't, I mean, this is where some industry knowledge can be helpful. I don't know if there's anything else sort of per se about their current practice that I might want to know. At least at this point, I feel like I'm pretty happy with that even because he's indicated I want to grow. I know the point that he's at now, how long he's been at that point. So now I want to start to understand like Okay, so what, um, you know, I suppose looking back over the past 12 months in your practice, I mean, what are some of the potential reasons that you feel like maybe we've been, in your words, like stuck at that, that $100K a month mark as opposed to, you know, progressing beyond that point to where you want to be? Yeah, or you can kind of get that rough outcome and go, okay, so I mean, how does that compare to where you'd really want to be? In your practice, or, you know, what you'd want to be generating every month in your practice if you could. Because now I've got a bit of an A and B, don't I? And then I can transition into, okay, so what's like— what, what do you feel when you look back, or when you're looking at, you know, when you're looking at your business, what do you feel has potentially kept you at $100K for the last year instead of being able to kind of make that transition to whatever it is at this point? Like, what's, what's behind that? And then I can go into the whole, like, uh, that's where you're going to start to get that understanding of, like, okay, well, what's the real reason he wants to make the transition in the first place? Does that make sense?

Yeah, sort of. The, the thing though is, is, I mean, in this, in this business, it's seldom is it a, uh they'll tell me like, I'm making this amount of money and then I want to scale to this amount of money. It's much— it's, it's because—

well, why?

Because most people don't go into psychology for the money. Um, most— I mean, it can include that, um, but getting a doctorate doesn't necessarily automatically lead to more money.

It—

I mean, it can, but more, more often it's, it's in order to like do other things. Like, for example, like a lot of people will want to like be a professor or—

My point, my point is, is that with the role play that we did, I feel like we sped through to like solution awareness really quickly without understanding like what, what are you actually looking for? Where are you now? And then, okay, cool. What is it like, what's the reason we're looking to maybe make a change in the first place? Like, that's what I want out of my discovery before I go further, you know.

What are you looking for?

And then if I don't— because if I don't get any of that, I can appreciate that I might get to consequence and go, okay, so what if you don't— like, uh, you know, what if you don't make this transition from where you are and, and acquire your doctorate or whatever? Like, where does that lead? And they're like, nowhere bad. Because if we— again, if I bring you back to this, it's like, this is the state that we're in potentially. Like, even if it is a higher level state of neutrality, there's a lack of urgency, you know. And, and I might not be— and neutrality means like there's no emotional attachment to the outcome. And so if I'm going through this whole conversation that I'm having with you going it would be kind of nice to get my doctorate, then if we get to the end and now you're talking about time and effort and financial resources that I need to allocate to make this transition, I'm weighing that up against, is it worth it? And all right, well, look, let me think about it. I don't know for sure if I really want to go through the extra study and this and that. Like, you know, like I said, I'm at a pretty good level in my business now, so Yeah, I mean, leave it with me and, uh, I'll, I'll kind of get clear on, is this something I actually want to do? And I'll come back to you because like where I am now, I'm saying to you like, oh, like, eh, something wouldn't be that bad if I just keep doing what I'm doing now. But that's a problem because that means there's like no urgency. There's no real desire to actually change the situation. I haven't had enough. Okay.

But those, the questions that you suggested were, what are you looking for? What's making you want to change? And then what was the other one?

Yeah, so I need to start with the, what are you looking for? Like, what, you know, different people reach out to us for different reasons when they're potentially looking to get their doctorate. What's kind of the, what's kind of the reason for you? Okay. Oh, well, it's I want to grow my business, or it might be, I know what, something else they might say. Bradley, what are some other common reasons?

Yeah, I want to be a clinical supervisor. I want to, you know, why is that? Well, because, you know, I really, you know, enjoy teaching and I want to hand on the tools of the trade to the next generation of clinicians, and I can't do that without a PhD.

Okay, got it. So even that, if I just stopped at the first one, vague AF. But that next one, what does that potentially tell me about your driver? It might be impact, it might be legacy.

Mm-hmm. And in fact, so that actually did come up. He even said that very word. Exactly. He said that when I asked him, like, you know, about, uh, I think it was— I forget it was solution. It might have been solution, but that actually came. He said, you know, I want to have a greater legacy, uh, have a bigger impact on mental health.

Okay, cool. So then, like, I mean, just so I understand from your perspective, suppose that things just carry on the way that they are. You know, you don't, you know, because things are, you're doing all right as it is, like, you know, you don't make that transition, you don't get your doctorate, and you don't put yourself in a position where you can have the level of impact that you really feel called to have on the next generation. And the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years go by, you're looking back and you're like, I never did that. What would that kind of mean or represent to you in your mind?

Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it would just feel, I would feel like, you know, a little bit of a failure because I could have done something that was really magnanimous and good, but I basically—

So if we get, I'm going to have to move on to the next person in a minute, but that's like, that's where I want to get. That's, that's the feedback that I'm attempting to give is like, if I just sprint through to like, oh yeah, how would that change things? And I don't kind of understand, I don't have some insight like what that driver is. And then I ask a very generic consequence question, like, oh, what happens if you don't get your doctorate? It's like, I'm not going to die, things won't be that bad. But if that person's driver is more about, like, I'm happy with where I'm at, but, like, I feel, you know, it's like self-actualization almost, if we think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, I'm at that point where I've got certain needs taken care of. Now, now for me, it's about, like, legacy, and it's about impact. Yeah, if that's what that person's sort of driver is, and then I'm like, all right, well, you don't do that, you don't make that happen, and you, you know, you've got to accept that almost, like, what would that be like? What would that mean or represent to you? And then you're going to get better answers like that. So you could even just start with making sure that we're asking the appropriate consequence question, because that's something that I see a lot, like A consequence question, imagine it like I've built this future vision, I've understood this new reality that they want and why it's important to them, and then the consequence question is pulling the rug out from underneath them. Okay, suppose 6 months from now, instead of that being your reality, your reality is this instead, because we've just stayed on the current trajectory. And that's what kind of creates that like "Ah, that would be, that would be awful." And so, you know, without listening to a call, which we can certainly do if you've got, you know, you can show a clip next time, that is a really common error that I see sales reps make, is they ask the wrong consequence question. They don't take the context that they've just gathered from that future state and what that will mean to them emotionally, and then Imagine, like, if I was to ask that consequence question in a way that implied, like, I'm pulling the rug out from underneath them, you never have that that you just articulated to me in great detail.

Yeah, that's really good. I wish I would have thought of that, because if I would have made that connection between when he disclosed that he was, like, worried about not— like, I'm going to make a big impact, and I should have, like, Yeah. Put that into the consequence and then it'll make it more powerful concept.

But that's why, guys, like, don't rush. You know, no one said that you had to go fast. Like, take your time. I really want to know at the top of the call, even just at a high level, like, what is it you're looking for? Like, why? And before I'm kind of out of my discovery, like, I want to feel like there is, like, it's time to make a change. It's like, "Okay, cool." Then we carry on. So make sure you feel clear on, like, clear on that, and it'll just make it easier for you to get to that point, Bradley, where you can ask a really, really solid consequence question. Okay. Got it? Cool.

Thanks.

And then, yeah, feel free to bring a call. Oftentimes, it's like role play or a call is way easier to get the context I need.

Yeah, for sure.

All right. Jump on, Angel. How can I help?

How's it going, Laura?

Good, good. What's up?

So last time I was on, I think it was like 3 weeks ago, you were speaking about like the importance of the pitch, and I wanted some advice on that. I, I feel like that's probably one of the areas where sometimes I struggle the most, and obviously that's when we're actually selling, right? So, uh, I'm in committed right now. I'm trying to figure out normally how, you know, to like make them the offer in a way where they're really excited about it. I'm starting normally with like permission, right? Like, so okay, like before I walk you through everything, like I recommend, like, would you be open to hearing like what's the best plan?

Firstly, like, I mean, like they've had so many conversations now there that there is like a structure that, for lack of better words, like works. And then I would number 2, definitely be listening to the top performers and Okay, well, how are they pitching? Because if a wheel rolls pretty well already, like, why reinvent it? You know what I mean? Just like look to what they're doing. And then I think the biggest place to start before changing a pitch is just in how we're delivering it. So if you think about the type of avatar that you're commonly speaking to in a company like Committed Coaches, if you imagine the type of person that is, Yeah, what they would want, what their concerns might, might, might be. Like, how, how might I need to position this pitch to cause them to go, oh my God, this is exactly what I want? Yeah. Now, to give you, uh, I guess to steer you in the right direction, it would be like, I'll like think about the type of person that would buy weight loss supplements. Not to cast judgment, but just to matter-of-factly, like, what might we be able to say about a person that decides that the best course of action to lose a significant amount of weight is to buy some, is to buy some, like, weight loss pills? What type of solution might they be looking for?

A quick fix.

Mm-hmm. Anything else?

An easy way.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Now I'm not, uh, again, there are assumptions, okay, because maybe they've tried a time million really, really, really difficult things and I don't know, maybe they're like, oh, maybe this could work, right? But, but yes, there are typically some things that we'll end up finding out about the person and it's like, okay, well, what, how does that mean I have to position that the pitch? So if I get, and you're going to get more of an understanding through the conversation as well, but let's suppose we confirm that assumption as like true, where it's like they've not really ever tried anything. They've tried some pills or some shakes, like those kinds of things. We get an understanding of, okay, this is a person that has been in pursuit of a quick fix and easy option. Then like, I don't want them coming into the program like that with those same beliefs. Like, I do need to make sure that they're aware that like, this is not that. But it doesn't mean that I have to make it seem like it's a 20-foot wall that they're going to have to conquer and, oh, they're like they're climbing Mount Everest. Because there's a saying goes that sell them what they want, give them what they need. So like your job is just to get them over the 12-foot wall, get them into the hands of the expert help, and then they will kind of take care of them like from there. So a way that I might say that is like, uh, now I mean I'm not saying that this is going to be rainbows and butterflies and just like cruisy. Like it's going to take a little bit of work, you know that, right? Yeah, yeah, I know that. But at the end of the day, if we set you up with something that is like impossibly difficult or overnight we try to, you know, get you to make this change from kind of the things that we've been doing into everything is different. I mean, how well is that likely to work? How are you going to be able to stick to that? Like, probably, probably not, right? And so, like, the whole point of this is, yeah, we're going to make some changes, but at the end of the day, the plan you can follow and stick to is better than the plan that you can't. And so the most important part is just, like, helping you to— helping to make this change and this transition feel as easy as as possible. All right, so that's just off the top of my head, but do you see what I'm doing? If I'm like, all right, I know this person, uh, I'm gonna trigger fear if I'm talking about macros and, and I'm going all in depth and we're gonna change this, we're gonna change this, we're gonna change this. I'm gonna freak them out, and then that's not in their best interest, is it? So I definitely want to imply that there's going to be some changes. At times it might feel a little hard, a little uncomfortable. Yeah, but just remember, you're not, you're not doing this on your own, and and like our job is to make that feel as easy as possible, like just one step at a time, and if you ever need us, we're there. So this person is kind of like, okay, you know, there's going to be some changes, but like, yeah, that's true, I'm not going to be doing this on my own, and okay, they're going to have a plan for me, and right. So that's where I would start, is not in changing the structure, but, but based on this person that I'm speaking to, What might I need to emphasize in order for them to feel like, this feels like exactly what I need? You know, someone's fearful, I know I need to make sure that I double down and emphasize like certainty and support. You know, if they're afraid, then like, hey, like, we're there every step of the way. You're never on your own. You're never going to feel lost or overwhelmed because like, we're going to be there for you. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. So that's where I would start. Okay. And then come back to me with feedback on that. Okay. Because those are the things— that's where you can just tailor your pitch without, you know, either structures there, but I'm just going to tailor that to them.

Yeah, that's pretty much— I— that's what I wanted to understand on that part. Like, you know, I, I followed their script to a huge extent, you know. Obviously I add my personality because there's words that I'm not going to use The only thing I've been trying to do with the pitch has been like, you know, okay, pillar number 1, you know, nutrition, you know, blah, blah, blah. You know how you mentioned that you like this, this, and that? Well, that's why. So that's how I'm trying to personalize it all the time with the, okay, so you know how you mentioned that you in the past you tried this? Well, like, what we do is going to be custom for you, you know, foods that you like, foods that you enjoy, that way you actually stick to a plan and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, yeah, that, that's where I would start. And then just take note of what potential problems you're encountering as a result of that, and then let's just solve those. But I think like that's where I'd always start, is how can I speak to the things that they want and also to the things that they don't want. So they're just like, ah, this feels— yeah, again, this is exactly what I need. All right, because that's the feedback that I used to get when I'd ask, is that the right answer? And that's how I know when I'm now— my pitch, am I getting That, like, F YES buy-in or not. If you ever get hesitation, call it out, like, hey, I mean, you don't sound so sure, which is okay. Like, what's behind that? And then that in of itself is very, very helpful feedback because you're going to start to notice patterns. Oh, I'm just not sure about X. And if you get that a little bit, it's like, oh, I've got a pattern. All right, let's make sure that I take care of that moving forward. Yeah. All right, I'll, uh, I'm gonna bounce to Adrian, make sure I get his questions answered. I can always come back. Uh, Adrian, how can I help?

Hey Laura, how you doing?

Good.

Awesome. Uh, so I have 3 questions. Hopefully we can get this all, all of them like quick hits. Um, but as of lately, right, so I've been missing a few sales, just like $100 to $200 off. So literally, like, I just got off of sale sales call and she said that she could afford like to put down $1,500 but like our minimum is $1,700. Like, what would you suggest I do, um, to try to like, I guess, bridge that gap? Because like, I really want to say like $200.

How do we arrive at $1,500 though in the first place? Was it like, what could you afford to do today? Or how do we get to $1,500?

Exactly. So I wanted to see what was in her budget, and I kind of felt like where my mistake was, instead of me just saying like, hey, could you do a 2 or 3 pay, I gave her that power, right? I gave her like, hey, what does that look like for you? And then she just dropped it.

Yeah, which you can, but even if like, let's say the way I went, it'd be like, okay, well actually that, that's— we can, we can, we're pretty close, that's, that's pretty close to, to something that we can work with. Um, like, uh, can I make a suggestion? Sure. It's like, if, if you're in a position where you feel like $1,500 is manageable I mean, $1,700 is the minimum that we'd need to be able to like get you set up and X and Y and Z and, and start moving towards the goal. So, you know, I can appreciate, you know, you, you threw sort of $1,500 at me, but do you feel like, do you feel like it'd be impossible for us to stretch that a little to, to $1,700? And, and, you know You can shake hands, or like, where are you at? Yeah, it's like we're freaking $200 off.

So that's the thing, all of them typically, from what I hear, they all say like it's just a stretch. It's just them saying that it's a stretch. None of them say that, right?

It's a stretch. Like, what's, what's, what's the— I don't get it. What's the problem with that?

And that's what I'm thinking. But then like, that little bit of difference— well, I have, but that little bit of difference is telling them like, oh, I need to think about it now. For a few hundred bucks. So I'm thinking like maybe I'm saying something wrong, or, um, like I'm not sure what to say at that point, you know what I mean?

I feel like maybe I have to, I have to hear more, but I, I think, you know, or an example, maybe bring a call clip or something like that. But it's like you could also, because it might be easier, is just go to them with like a, okay, well, uh, I mean, if we were to, you know, and just like you could you control where the call goes a little bit more than like give it to them and like, hey, what could work with you? Because I mean, it's always a tough one too if they're like, oh, $200, and you're like, ah, great, well, that's a very long way back, way from where we can work. So I think like what's generally easier is like you just dictate, like take a little bit more leadership. And let's say they're like, yes, I'm open to talking about some ways that we can make it work. It's like, okay, well, kudos to you for being willing to to, to, to be, you know, resourceful, to look at ways that we can make this happen, as opposed to being like, you know, a lot of people, "Oh, well, I guess this is my reality right now," you know what I mean? So, um, you know, I mean, one of the ways in which we can maybe break this up, but you let me know if this would, would actually help you, is, is we could potentially break it into X payments of X dollars. Like, I mean, would that work within your current budgetary constraints? You know, sometimes even before that, I might need to ask, like, how far off would you say that we are? Like, just so I kind of know where to start as far as like what we might be able to do to help, you know. No judgment from me, you know what I mean. I've been in your shoes. Are we like, uh, well, you know, we— are we well away, like, you know what I mean, or are we kind of close? Like, how far, how far are we? And then just kind of take a little bit more control over how we inch the conversation forward, but just make sure you've got from them, at least initially, where they're like, yes, I want to do this. Like, okay, because what it is telling me, if they're like, oh, if it's an extra $200, like, I need to think about it, like, they're possibly not in that resourceful state. Okay, you know, next time someone says to you like, oh, like, I mean, I could, it's just, it's a bit of a stretch, so I don't know, it's like, okay, so it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's a little bit of a stretch, um, like, what's, what's the problem with that? What would— what's so bad about that? I like that.

Yeah, I could do that. Yeah, but I'll definitely show you.

It's like this entire journey is, is, you know, it's gonna be a little bit of like a stretch. Okay.

Yeah, that's more my style. I like that.

All right, I'm mindful of like, I've got, I've got that I've got another meeting in my head, and so, you know, jump back on and, and I mean, or if you DM me let me know a bit. But I think like call clips, guys, too, are really helpful. You're like, cool, here's an example of where this problem happened, you know, because it's never what we think it was. It's not what— never what we recall that it was, you know. We always remember happening a certain way, and then we look at it, we're like, oh, okay, yeah, that was a bit different. Okay, um, all right, I gotta, I gotta run, guys, but was that helpful? Did you— you know, people with hands up, did you get what you need? Okay, sweet. Note down any questions, jump on the next training. I'm going to be away for a little bit over kind of mid-December through to mid-Jan, but then I'll be back and we'll get back into it. Okay, all right, catch you guys later.