The Simple Way to Book More Calls (Outbound)

Let me turn on the recording. So you, so for compliance, you have to go in that order, right?

Yeah, I've got no choice on it. Yeah. So that's the issue. I do a setting. So, so what it is, the business is set up mortgage broking leads. They're fantastic. I haven't had trouble being consultative with it. They sort of convert at 90%. It just comes down to budget really. And timing. We're doing Meta ads. Which is a first for me. So I've been banging out the phones, developed, sort of developed that setting script. So what I'm finding is I'm starting to get pretty good traction whenever I'm on the phone, the script's working to getting you to an online meeting. The stumbling block is then is the, is people turning up to the online. So that's the other part I'm learning. So just within 3 days of just being on this course, I've been picking up all sorts of stuff that's benefiting in terms of follow-up and stuff like that, which has been great.

The good news is everything that you're running into is pretty common for insurance. You know, very, very common. Them not showing up, super, super common. And also, you know, that second call, even when they do show up, being a little bit more logical. Yeah. And find— and it's kind of because you have to be logical and, you know, it is what it is. It's a— I'm sure it's the same way there in the States. It's a very commoditized product where, yeah, you know, they can get so many other types of insurance online that they're like, I don't want to talk to somebody. I'm guessing they're probably maybe a little more open to talking to you, but you have more compliance, it sounds like.

Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. Like looking, when you look at your scripts, you're able to cut to the chase a lot, a lot more. You're able to like, I like the way you've got the capacity to work into the underwriting, like without them necessarily know that they're going through that process. For us, it's sort of, I'm in this space of this, especially with the metal, like all, especially with the place that's set that first meeting, which will be sort of discovery quoting. And then you have to do a separate one for for application because it's so long. So it's pretty much a 3-call scenario.

So what I would do, because you have to— you— this will be short, but it can get you deep pretty quick. It's within my script, but I'm just— we're just looking at it in a flowchart here. This, this is probably the most important section for you to take away. And if you could fit this in somewhere, it's like this question here. It's just the— this is just like the tipping point. It kind of kicks things off. It doesn't matter how they respond. It's like, what got you looking into this in the first place? Or why did you want this in the first place? Uh, from there, I have it labeled as level 1, 2, or 3. And so I think about level 1, 2, or 3, uh, if we think about Just getting a problem in sales. A common thing that I see a lot of reps run into, and I struggled with it myself for a couple years, it took me a long time to learn this, was how much of a problem is enough. Yeah, because the bottom line is if you expose a problem and then you make it too big, it's just as bad as not having one. So the thing is, is that you have to find the right amount. And so this isn't mine, I learned it from Eli Sanchez, a guy that Matt Ryder and I work with. But level 1 is basically like surface level. So you can see that here in the States, common answers, just getting older, just saw your ad, whatever it may be, it doesn't really matter, right? Level 2 or 3, level 2, I would define that as it's something that has a little bit of emotion now. Like there's a little bit of emotion or a little bit of a reason. Like, "Oh, I don't have anything now. I don't want my kids to have to pay for it." That's not great, but it's a starting point. Level 3 is going to be identity or personal driver. And so that will come out when they say like, "You know, what got you looking at this in the first place?" "Well, I just never really thought about it until recently. And like, I just don't think it's the right thing to do. You know, I don't think it's the right thing to do. Like, I'm their mother, I should take care of them, or I'm their father, I should take care of them. And I just hadn't thought about it, but I needed—" Like, that's Level 3. Identity. Okay. And so ask this question, depends on how they answer. Most of them are going to be like level 2, even if it's a level— or level 1 is what I meant— but even if it's a level 2 kind of surface level, you have to feel it out, right?

Yeah, everyone's level 2, every single one of them.

Yeah, then you just go here. It's like, yeah, it's like, yeah, that makes sense, it sounds like you're just the type of and then you insert the identity. Okay, got you. Right, just like, oh yeah, that makes sense. It sounds like you're just the type of guy that's like, uh, you're smart enough to realize like, okay, let's get, you know, hopefully none of this shit happens, but at the end of the day, let's, you know, be prepared for the worst. And then all they're going to do is they're just going to, they're going to be like, yeah, exactly. That's almost 9 times out of 10. And then I'll come right into this where This is where I'm really going to start to get more into identity. And so first, what I'm going to do in this is I'm going to give them a compliment, and then I'm going to flip that compliment and say something negative, and into a negative. Uh, now the reason that's really important is if I just do the positive, people usually will just be like, yep, and they get kind of awkward because people, you know, think about it yourself, you know, people come usually— Constant price. Yeah, you like, you, uh, yeah, we can't stand praise. We deflect compliments, but talking shit, people love to talk shit. And that's exactly what we're doing. And so it's, you know, they say yep or whatever, and it's like, you know, it's refreshing. Um, you know, and I don't mean it in a weird way, but it's refreshing to be speaking to somebody that's actually like smart enough to realize that. Uh, and you could, you could read, read language at a million different ways. Like in the States, what I'll do a lot is I'm like, you know, it's refreshing to be speaking to somebody like you. Like, I love working with people in the South. You know what I'm talking about? You know, I'm like, I love working with people in the South. Like, all of you guys, you're just way more open. You're happier. You're easier to talk to. And it's like, for some reason, the people in the South, they just give a shit about their family. Uh, and so I make it about where they live versus like, it's just someone like you, you can do stuff like that. And then I'll say, um, yeah, it's just like, I mean, I do this all day. So as you can imagine, I talk to a lot of people and sometimes I talk to people and it's like, It doesn't happen very often when I'm talking to people from the South, but sometimes I'm talking to people from other places and it's like— I'm not saying they're bad people. I'm not saying they don't love their family, but you know what I mean? It's different. A lot of them, they just look at it and they're like, "Eh, I paid for everything when you were younger. You're doing well. I'm on a fixed income. It's your turn. You take care of me." I mean, you know what I mean? We all know somebody like that. Yeah. And now what I'm doing is I'm getting like, I'm, I'm getting deep really quickly, but it's happening in succession. And so if you just go straight here, it doesn't work as well. The— okay, it's a pattern where it's like each thing that you're doing is seeding the next thing. And so it's— yeah. And then out of that, they're going to do one of two things. They're going to latch on and tell you some sort of story or elaborate. They're basically going to tell you why this is important to them. Mm-hmm. And if they don't, you just ask. Okay. Yeah. And it's difficult to not answer because you just told them everybody doesn't care about that. And then after that, you just anchor the identity if you want to. At this point, it depends on how deep you wanna go, but anchoring the identity could sound something like, yeah, we see that all the time. You know, it's interesting. I even went through that same thing myself. Like when I was in my early 20s, you know, I couldn't care less about anybody else. And I had kids, you know, in my late 20s and, You know, once you have kids, it just changes you. You start thinking about, thinking about, at least it did for me. What have you always been that way? Or like, where does that come from? Mm-hmm. And now the, now the identity that you just gave them and brought to it, you're not giving them a brand new identity. You're just bringing an identity that's already there to the surface. But now they're gonna tell you where that comes from.

Sure. Be like, hey, yeah.

And it's very, very, once they've anchored to that, it is very difficult for them to not act in line with whatever that identity is. And so now they're making the decision based off of the type of mother, father, what, whatever, versus making the decision off of, you know, the stresses of daily life and logistics. Yeah. Is this helpful? And let me give you this, uh, I'll give you guys this link.

Good.

And there's one other thing that I'll show you here, Justin, that I think will help with your show-up rate. Uh, so this is an anchor here. Uh, what it is is it's a guilt frame. Guilt is one of the strongest human emotions, as you guys probably know.

It's the one where you— it's hurt. It hurts me. Yeah, it will hurt me. That one. Yeah, great. I watched that, honey. Just watched that last night with, um, it was 1 o'clock in the morning. Oh no, another— yeah, 226's Obsession.

Um, big favor here, I'll put it in the chat so you can Take— oh, I guess you can copy and paste out of Zoom chat anyways. You can screenshot it off this video. Here, I'll just give you this board. This board is just my R script but laid out in a— like, if they say this, do that throughout the whole thing. So this part, this top, I don't know if you start your intros the same way, but this might help too. Oh, would you be able to just send that through?

That'd be great.

Yeah, I put it in the chat.

Okay, cool. Appreciate that.

Perfect. Yeah, that should help quite a bit. The other show-up rates for insurance, it's typical. It's logistic, like it's a logistical product. People are thinking, yeah, and it's, it's not fun to talk about. You're not talking about getting rich or starting a new career. You're talking about dying or something shitty happening at the least. Um, what do you find? Oh, but there's another person on now, so either of you guys have questions? How do I say your name, bro? Is that Po Jun Ji?

Uh, you can just call me JJ in short because it's a— I'm a Chinese— it's a Chinese name.

I could tell, brother. I knew I was gonna fuck it up, but it sounded fun.

But firstly, uh, is, is the connection on my side, uh, is it good? Because Right now I'm in some villa. Um, not sure about the connection.

It's all right, that's all right. What's your question?

Okay, uh, okay, so I think just, just for some context, uh, I'm an insurance sales rep in Singapore, okay? And currently I'm doing outbound cold calling. Cool. Uh, and I think the difference would be because for— okay, I think I'll go with the first type of, uh, leads that I'm getting. It's slightly more expensive. It's up to like $15 per lead in Singapore, in Singapore dollars. But the difference is because these are the people who actually sign up for some giveaways, and so their intention is just, you know, to sign up for giveaways. But because of the giveaways, it's structured such that they have to answer some financial questions, and then from there, that is how we get their database. So I actually wanted to ask, in this kind of situation, for this type of leads, how would you change your script in terms of, you know, for cold calling outbound? Because I noticed that the questioning that you had is very focused on to, you know, who would the beneficiary be. Yeah. Yeah. So I think in this context, it's quite different because Firstly, they don't really have an intention, uh, depending—

you don't have an intention. Um, yes, and it's a little different as well because you're in Singapore and yes, in the, in the States people are way more emotional. And not that people aren't emotional in Singapore, but it's not as common throughout society to talk about it, is my understanding. I've never lived there.

Um, yeah, sorry, sorry to interject, but just for some context, um, in Singapore it's common to talk about it, but we as an insurance sales rep, we have a stigma because a lot of us when we get into insurance industry, we were taught to, you know, do mainly on our warm market. And because I don't think that the methodology in Singapore where we approach our one market is, is a very tactful way, and it destroys a lot of relationship. So that creates a very huge stigma in Singapore. So the moment, you know, people hear about insurance, yeah, there are still resistance is up like crazy. And the— in our industry in, in Singapore is quite frowned upon. So it's a bit tricky.

Yes, that's fairly similar. Um, what information do you have? Like, what were they— what did you know what they were originally looking for? Does it have anything to do with insurance?

So most of the leads that we get are for Koh Kong. They are actually just signing up for some giveaways, be it, um, for like probably, uh, some chalet retreat. Oh yeah, totally different items. Yes, yes. And physical items such as like iPhone or—

The biggest thing that I would do that's probably different than what you were doing is not a script change, but when I was calling the list, I wouldn't be focusing on selling. I would be focusing on sorting. On sorting? Yeah. And what I mean by that is like if I'm cold calling that list, my first job, if I get sales when I first call them, that's great. But my first job is to sort through the list and get the people who aren't interested out of the way and the people who are interested in more focus. Okay. Who are—

do you mean interested in terms of, uh, the topic of like insurance? Yeah.

Like they just, they're, they're willing to talk about what you're selling. Okay.

And then how would you, what, what kind of questioning would you ask to kind of, I would say, qualify, like, who are the ones who are more open to, you know, have a conversation?

Um, I mean, they'll tell you. I'm trying to think of some questions now. Okay. I've never done it that way before. I'd have to mess with it. But if I had to come up with something on the spot, I would want to tell them pretty early in the conversation. Um, most likely. Do you know financial data? Because you said there were some financial questions that they answered. Yes, you have it?

Uh, yeah, but it's pretty generic. So usually, okay, uh, for the past, um, campaigns that I had, I mean, in terms for the co-leads, they will answer questions like, what are the top financial priorities that you have? So they have 3 options. So like First would be like planning for your future, or second would be protecting your family life, or is investment important to you. So they'll just choose one of it. How old are they? Uh, it can range from all age, but it's up to us. We, we are able to, uh, choose what type of age range we want to buy.

This is an animal. Yeah, it's pretty tough because firstly, firstly, you want my real answer, brother?

I would buy different leads.

You want to buy the place? That's what I would do. Yeah. Okay.

But if, let's say you don't really have any choice, how would you?

If I didn't have any other option, I would probably be fairly direct. Okay. I would call and I would say, hey, hey, Justin, this is just Caden. Got some info here that you'd filled out about the luxury villa. Hopefully that rings a bell. It was like a month ago. And they're probably going to say yes, because you're talking about something that they want to talk about. Right. And then I would go, okay, I'm just looking at the answers that you put down here. It looks like you put down this. It looks like you put down that, you know, in terms of financial outlook, this is very important to you. It looks like you put down this. Yes. Yes. Okay. Yeah, that's exactly why I was reaching out. They just, they, they just asked me to reach out. I'm guessing that you probably already, uh, based on that, I'm assuming that you already have some sort of insurance or some sort of insert product, whatever type of product. I wouldn't just say insurance, I probably would say life or whatever specific product I'm trying to sell, depending on what they answer.

Yeah, yeah.

And if they say no, then I would just, probably would just push. I probably would.

Would you give them like, sorry, yeah, would you give them a chance to answer? Like, because the most common response would be, I I just wanted the giveaway, so because I'm required to, you know, fill up the financial question, so I'm just asking, I'm just answering for the sake of it.

Yeah, I guess you could stay away from the giveaway then. I, I mean, I've worked giveaway leads before, and what we did is we never talked about the giveaway and we just pretended that they put in information for insurance, and sometimes they went with it and sometimes they told you to eat shit. Okay, like we would just call them like they put in info for insurance, bro. Like they would answer and I'd be like, hey, this is just Caden over here with the— I'm just licensed with the state. I don't know how it works over there. I'm just licensed with the state. Looks like here you'd put in some info about looking at life insurance. Were you looking for anything specific? Or actually what we would ask in that setting is we said the first thing I need to do here, I need to confirm. And then we would confirm a piece of— like, do you have their birthday or anything that's personal? Yes.

Yeah, we do have their personal data. Okay.

Use that. The more personal it is, confirm it, because if you can show them, hey, I have some personal data, it makes it harder to hang up. Um, so confirm one, one or two pieces of personal data, and then we would just go, okay, were you looking to cover funeral final expenses, or were you wanting to leave a little bit more? And they would just answer, bro. Or they would be like, I never did that. And we would just, uh, we would just basically be like, oh, I apologize. Yeah, it's pretty common that people don't remember. It looks like it was a couple of months ago. I'm— my job is just to get the information out to you. Don't, don't shoot the messenger. It'll take 5 minutes here, okay? Okay. And if they said okay, then you kept going. If they kept fighting with you, you just basically said that same thing again until they hung up. Okay. They're pretty savage. They're kind of fun.

Uh, yeah.

Uh, but you basically just gaslight them. Okay. Yeah. That, that, like, if I, if I take a step back and think about it, like, that's kind of what you're doing, you know, you're just like, yeah, you, you put in information for this. Yes. And a lot of them, dude, they just, they just go with it. They're just like, yeah, I did, I guess.

Okay.

I guess I can, yeah, I guess I can try that. Yeah.

Well, I get that's, that's 1,000 times easier than trying to craft some perfect word spiel.

Because the hard—

the thing about people, that is, if you get into the conversation, confirm a couple pieces of personal information, now they've responded to two of your questions. It— like, it's just human nature. It is way harder to hang up on you now. Um, okay. It's awkward. So if I'm not a confrontational person that I'm just gonna go with it. And you— and there's probably— people probably aren't very confrontational. Majority in, in Singapore, they are—

in, in terms of the profiling, in terms of our DISC, I think majority are S profile. So I think in terms of the laws of large numbers, I guess, yeah, I can play into that. Yeah, it's just like you already—

you've already established a little bit of a conversation, so now it feels rude to hang up on you. Versus if you do it right at the intro and it's just like click. And so that's why, that's why you're using those two pieces of per— like, it looks like I've got your birthday here. Is this— yep. Okay. And I've got your— it looks like your address is this, or whatever else you have. Yep. And they're going to be like— think about putting yourself in their shoes. It's like you don't want to hang up. It's like, how do they have my info? And then you go into it and it's like, well, would you want me to cover this or this? I guess that. And now I'm in. Okay, okay, okay.

Thanks a lot. Yeah, because I've been kind of in a difficult situation because while I do have— okay, currently the type of leads that I'm, I'm sharing with you is more of— we call it like a campaign lead because there is a specific giveaway. But we do have another form of cheaper leads whereby there's no financial question answered, but we just have their data. But we know that they sign up for some random like shopping gift card or some random—

This way you don't even have to worry about the giveaway. You just get right in.

Yeah. Okay, okay. In this case, yeah, I think I'll definitely try, you know, what you have shared. Thanks a lot.

Perfect. What else can I help with?

I think for me, I think right now that's all. It's up to me to test it out and then I'll come back again. Yeah. What about you? Thank you so much.

Yeah, for me it's just building out that script essentially. Okay, cool. Yeah, because I've sort of, I think I feel pretty confident on the, the setting script now. So it was so funny, like we, we're sort of generating leads and we're targeting, um, sort of women who are sort of like due to have babies or just have babies. So we're sort of not doing too bad on that engagement. So we're doing quite fine on that. The only thing is, is if they've got screaming kids in the background or they're in a car and that type of stuff. So it's sort of getting better at, I think, navigating that piece as well. Yeah, with those types of individuals. So do you have any ideas around that? Like, it was interesting—

screaming kids are their, their job to worry about, not yours. Yeah, like, if, if they're not saying anything about screaming kids, you don't say anything because you don't know what the dynamic is like at the house for them. Like, there are a lot of people who just parent that way. And it's like they— yes, you know, they let their kids scream, they don't care, they just— they're on the phone. Um, and there's some people who want their kids to be quiet, you know. But if— yeah, I would try and get over that one. If they're in the car or something, I just book an appointment. Yeah, yeah, just book an appointment.

And you try and keep it with— these are the things I've sort of been getting it inside that 48 hours and, and stuff like that. Ideally, but yeah, life is life.

Yeah, you know, so you got to do what you got to do. Yeah. What I usually will do though is I try to downplay the appointment and I'm just like, yeah, it's no big deal. And hey, if I, if I finish with my, what I'm working on right before that and I have, you know, I can call you 15 minutes beforehand, would that work? And they almost always say yes. And I say, okay, and just give me some leeway the other direction as well. Like if I'm running a little bit late, give me a little bit of leeway. Sometimes that'll happen if somebody has a lot of questions. And if you have a lot of questions, don't worry, I'll be there to stay late, but we'll try and get done as quickly as possible. And then I'll do the guilt frame.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's good. I'll just get— yeah, I've had that. That'll be good to add in the prior and after. Definitely. Yeah.

Now you have a window. It's not like you don't look unprofessional if you don't call right at that time, but you're still, you know, and I, and I really do. I'll just, I usually call them beforehand. Like I don't get nothing.

Yeah. That makes a big difference. Just that I've got, that's missing off it. So I think that'll assist quite a bit. Um, what's the— what's, what's your experience with pickup rates and sort of like in terms of calls? What's sort of the industry average type thing?

Uh, I don't know. It seems like the last year or so, 5 to 7%.

So I'm in the ballpark. Like I'm doing all the calls and stuff, so I'm hitting about 6%. Started tracking the numbers, um, and when I get them picking up, it's to an online meeting, it's hitting sort of like 75% to 90%. So that's sort of working out all right. The only thing is, is the agitation is, is sometimes when they pick up is if it rolls into, can you call me back? Yeah, then it is what it is. That is what it is.

Yeah, that's actually on that, that objection is on that Miro. And one thing I can do, I got, I learned this from Matt and I've done it and it does help, is tracking your pickup rate by hour. Like just create a Google Calendar that's separate from your other Google Calendar and for a month, uh, every hour. Like, if your pickup rate is above, call it 8%, that'll be green. If it's 8 to 5, that'll be, you know, yellow. And then less than 5 is red. And yeah, okay, every hour mark it. And then at the end of the month, you can come back and look at the entire month, and you, you don't have to look that hard. It'll be obvious. Yeah. Where there's more green and now you can focus. Because a big thing that I've seen a lot is people get frustrated by their pickup rate, but they're dialing at dumb times and it's like, well, yes, I'm finding that 8:30 to 9:30 is the sweet spot.

Yeah, that's common in Australia. 8 o'clock, sort of like, hey dude, what the fuck are you doing? It's 8 o'clock. Yeah. Yeah, and you try, you try to get past it, but you're really on the back foot when you've— yeah, you've, you've got some of the back foot. Lunchtime's all right. Funny enough, after hours, like that 5:30 to 6:30 is different. But what I'm just trying now, um, I've just made the adjustment because I was just doing a call, a call, a call. I was— I started off double dialing, then I heard Matt Ryder discussing about double dialing and triple dialing not being the greatest of things. But I've just made an adjustment to do an hour with a block of leads and go an hour, 3 calls, 20 minutes, 20 minutes, 20 minutes, and do, and patch it through like that. Yeah. And it was actually, it was pretty good yesterday. It was like at 8%. Nice. Like, it's a one-off, right?

Yeah.

Obviously you need data over a month, but I think just you could see the reasoning in it, right?

Like, it's headed in the right direction. It sounds like.

Yeah, like the reasoning makes sense on it, like them being so random. Yeah, that's perfect.

What about you, Jeff? What's cracking, brother? How can I help? That's a match, man.

Um, I've been watching your recordings. You're, you're sharp. I mean, no surprises. Thanks, man. Love your stuff. Yeah, I, um, I was able to close my biggest deal using your identity selling on one of my outbound. Congrats. Like a— yeah, it was a $10K deal, so appreciate you on that front. Um, anyways, I I was going to bring a recording. I forgot to bring it. I'll bring it next week, but I thought I did it well as far as like identity selling. I forget the phrases I'll use, but anyways, I'll bring the recording next time. But it was— everything was going good. And then I started going through the pitch and I got to pillar 2 and I felt like the energy shifted. Right. And then when I was done with my 3 pillars, then he's like, no, no. After the second pillar, he's like, okay, I know there's going to be a cost here. And then I'm like, oh shoot.

Yeah, that just means, uh, yeah, like if we look at human behavior, let's look at it from like a human behavior standpoint and then we'll think about him a little bit more in your call. But if that's happening, um, what it a lot of times is, if you think about it, he sounds like he was getting a little bit frustrated, like he was getting mad. Yeah, like he was—

oh Well, I think he was like all bought in. He's like, yeah, I have to do this. I have to do this. And then I guess he got the feeling like it was salesy. He's like, oh, I feel like I'm being pitched. And then yeah, that's what it was.

He noticed that he was being pitched.

Yeah.

And so just, you just crossed the, basically what happened is you broke rapport. Yeah. Right. Where you probably had a pretty good connection with him earlier. Oh yeah. And then all of a sudden he's like, he's like, think of it kind of like if you start dating a girl, you think you really like each other, and then she cheats on you. And it's like, oh shit, I actually really liked her. And I don't think it went the same, you know what I mean? Like, it's somewhat of a similar thing. And so your tone and some of that stuff will make a big difference.

Okay.

And also, anytime that you hear that shift that happen, Like if you're in pillar 2 and you hear it happen, call it out. Don't just keep going and go to pillar 3 because as soon as you hear that shift happen, he's not listening anymore, brother. Yeah. He's all there thinking is how much is this going to cost? How much is this going to cost? How much is this going to cost? How much is this going to cost? How much is it? And like everything you're saying is gone. So if that, if you start to feel that, you just slow the call down and you just say, hey, um, I'm just curious, and I apologize if I offended you, but I felt like we were having a really good conversation, and a second ago, it feels like something shifted. What's going on? Hmm, that's good. Okay. And it's gonna be— and I warn you that that is going to be uncomfortable. You're probably just gonna have to sit there silently for a couple seconds while they decide how to answer, because they're not going to know how to answer that.

You know what I mean? No, that's good.

And then he's probably gonna call it out. Yeah, you're gonna call it out and he's gonna say, well, it's starting to sound like this is gonna cost me, how much is it? Right? And then what I would do is I would say, well, there's a couple of different options, right? There are different options. Uh, why don't we do this? I'll walk you through the rest of how it works and I'll show you the different options and we'll just see which one makes the most sense. Okay. And then they're either going to go with you and say, okay, or he's going to be like, well, how much? How much are they? Because I don't want to waste your time. Which all he's telling you is, I really want to do this, but I'm nervous I'm not going to be able to afford it.

Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I could use that. Okay. So my biggest takeaways from what you're saying, one is just like watching my tone because I think I was like, I went from my empathetic hat to a sales hat, if I oversimplify it. And then as soon as I feel that shift, just call it out. Don't just continue and plowing through the pitch. Okay.

All right. Yeah, exactly. Because if you don't call it out, then what happens is you lose the frame.

Yeah.

And now he has the frame, or she— whoever you're talking to, she has the frame. It doesn't matter. And, and if you don't have the frame, nobody's going to follow you. 100%. That's so good. The hard thing about the frame, especially as a sales rep, is that whoever wants something from the other person more is never going to have the frame. It doesn't matter if it's a sales conversation or in your personal life. Yeah, that's good. And, and like, you have a marriage offer, right, where you're helping Christian men. So it's the same thing. It's like, if the man really wants to have sex and the woman doesn't want to have sex, then they're going to be in, in the wife's frame, not the man's frame. And if, and if, and if you're always living in your wife's frame, she's probably not going to want to have sex with you very often. Yeah, because you're not leading. Yep. And so because you are trying to make that happen all the time, now it's not happening and you're breaking apart, you know what I mean?

Oh, 100%.

And so like whoever desires something more from the other person will never have the frame. Yeah, that's good. And so it's like being, you know, it's the same concept as being detached, but that's why being detached is important. And being detached doesn't mean you're being an asshole and you don't care about the sale, but you care about the sale for them, not for you. Like, I don't want something from you. I'm just here to help you and I'm here to help you get out. But I can't force you. I'll take a horse to water and you can either drink it or you can't. You don't like what— it doesn't make any difference to me. I have plenty of water.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. All right. I'm definitely going to apply that. And one more question, if I could. When I'm doing my outbound, sometimes I feel like I go a little too deep. So I'm wondering, like, are there like 2 to 3 questions or— I don't want to oversimplify it, but like, what info should I be getting on that outbound to like set them for a later call?

I want to know what they're looking for and a little bit of why. Okay. And then as soon as I have that, I want to take that and give them a little bit of information and leave them with an open loop. So an open loop, an open loop, meaning I give them a little bit of information about how we solve that problem, but I don't, I don't tell them everything because I want to leave them in a place where they can't close that loop. The, you know, whatever I just educated them with and then I leave it on a cliff. Right. And it's like, and we'll go over all of this next time and I'll break it down for you. So that they want to show up for them, not for me. They want to show up to close that loop. And so for me, I don't care about a problem. If they give me a problem, cool. If they don't, I don't really give a shit. What I want to know is I want to know why are you looking for it, or what are you looking for and why? And then I just want to tell you a bit of how we solve that so that you feel like it's open, you know what to expect moving forward. But more than anything, I want that open loop.

Gotcha. Okay, so I've been going about it wrong because what I've been doing is like, okay, like, most men, when they reach out to us, they're struggling in their marriage. What's going on in your world, Kaden? Okay, how long has this been going on for? Okay, has this been an issue in the past? So I'm— and I feel like I'm getting too deep. But going—

if I'm using this, I don't know, framework, you could even use that same question right at the beginning. Right. What, what, you know, a lot of, a lot of guys when they reach out to us, it's because they're looking for, you know, something to kind of help their marriage. But what, what, what caught your attention? What made you reach out in the first place? Okay. Right. Yeah. I guess, I guess a little bit of that, you know, and think things aren't bad. Like, we don't, we have a pretty good marriage, but they could always be better. I'm guessing they say something like that a lot of the time.

Yeah, half the time it's that or it's really bad. Yeah, it's either or. Yeah.

So if they say something like that, it's just like, oh yeah, we see that all the time. And like, it says a lot about you that you're starting to try and figure some stuff out right now, uh, before it gets too bad to not be able to save. Uh, you wouldn't— you would be shocked how many people I talk to and it's like, it's just already gone. It's already gone, brother. Like, you're, you're done. Yeah. I mean, you know what I mean? We, we all see that. But and they'll be like, yep. What was there anything like specifically happening in the marriage or— and it's— and that might go a little too deep into the problem. But from there, I could just say something like, what I would probably do is I would drive towards like, okay, and like when you got the PDF, what were you— I guess what were you hoping it would help with the most? Obviously the marriage, but do you feel like that's more like helping in your relationship with God to be able to help the marriage? Or do you feel like, you know, helping with your communication? Or, you know, what do you feel like is the lowest hanging fruit, I suppose? Mm-hmm. That's good. You know, and then they tell you, and then once they— once you have that information, I'm just going to have a conversation until the time feels right. Like, because I already— I could even book it right there. Yeah. If they say communication, like, yeah, I guess. Yeah, my relationship with God. Definitely helps. But, you know, I think we just need to communicate better. Right now, we don't communicate very well. And, you know, when we try to, you know, lately, it seems to always end up in us being mad at each other. And, you know, and things don't seem to go anywhere. And it's like, yeah, you would be shocked how often we hear that same thing. And communication is nothing too crazy. The good news is, is it's one of the easiest things for us to solve and help you with. Um, you know, when, when that's like the lowest-hanging fruit, that actually makes me really excited for you, uh, because like it's, you know, I, I'll have to learn a little bit more, but usually that's like something that's fairly easy once I understand a little bit more to actually help you out with. Uh, what I can do is 'Cause I actually have a call that I need to run to. I only had a second to reach out to you. What I can do though, what, what I have this time open, I have this time open. Let's just schedule a quick chat. What time works best? And you guys see how like I told him nothing other than I solve that problem all the time.

Solve that problem all the time.

Yeah. And now you're like, like it's difficult to not show up to that next call.

Yeah, man. Yeah, that's so good. All right, that's good.

Perfect. All right, fellas, we're to time. I gotta run, I'm back to back today. Uh, hopefully you got something out of this. I will make sure it gets sent off and uploaded wherever the recordings for these go. I think they go to the YouTube channel and Patreon, understanding?

Yeah. Thanks, Caden. Appreciate you, brother.

See ya. See you next week.