Turn Chaos Into Predictable Revenue
A sales coach walks a team through a framework for selling high-ticket coaching, using cybersecurity career-change offers as the example. The core move: get prospects to admit they lack skills, show them the income gap (one prospect wanted to go from nothing to $80K), then use future-pacing to make the transformation feel real.
Chapters
You're going to get one-on-one coaching for free. This meeting is being recorded. I know Darcy, he's here every week. He's ramping from setter to closer and he wants a call reviewed. He was here like last week, so I'm going to do that. But whilst we've got the time before he jumps in, he's just wrapping up a call. My time is yours, man. Do you tell me about yourself and like what your questions are and stuff? Go ahead.
Yes. So I just run an offer, but at the same time, I'm just a salesperson. I've been doing it for a little bit.
Okay.
I saw some of the call recordings and I know that you run a trading offer and I run a trading offer.
I, as in I consult, I manage.
Consult or manage. I'm not sure entirely, but yes.
I've done full done for you. I took a trading offer from $110K to $360K a month and cut the team down by two-thirds. And then I've one-on-one coached, I one-on-one coached the up-and-coming top rep at GOAT Academy, which is a $2.5 million a month trading offer. Felix Prenn, and then I've coached like a bunch of other reps on trading offers as well. So just for context. Yeah.
Okay, cool.
Yeah.
No, I just, so I run an offer where the marketing is very much not like, you know, quit your 9 to 5. Like there's no lifestyle. It's very much just like trading.
Nice.
But the biggest thing that we attract is people that have trading experience, but trade, people that have trading experience, they went through another program and they got scammed And so when I'm on a call, it's exactly the same. So I was just curious, um, maybe what you would see as the biggest or highest leverage point to build trust before they get on a call.
Well, the first things first is like when you always look at any building a sales process, like as a manager or anything where a lot of guys go wrong is they're like, well, they reason by analogy and as deep as they can go is they go, what categorizes this as different? Where do I have to change it? And it's a trading offer. And what they don't approach is that doesn't really matter, is that it's really one of the least important things. Yeah, sure, it does change some of the language and the nomenclature and stuff. It's more about what you said regarding the potential sophistication level or the awareness level of the avatar. So you said part of what the marketing does is attract people less. I'm— and I don't— you just cut me off here where it goes off from what I'm seeing. Is that they're not— they may be, but they're not so much the zero to one Lambo, like, I'm in pure pain and I just need a vehicle out. Or, or maybe they are, uh, it's attracting people. If it's very technical based, that you can still get unsophisticated people that have nothing and they're trying to go from zero to one. But typically that marketing, in some cases at least to a degree, attracts people that Uh, either maybe going from good to great, they're already trading but want an elite system, they want something better to start getting better results. Or even if they are 0 to 1, they're more mechanical in their approach to whether they're going to buy it or not. It really depends. I'd have to know. So if, if I ask you, when you get a person on a sales call, if we look at the customer awareness pyramid, you aware of that? Yeah, like where— okay, I can walk you through, but say like there's not problem aware, The prospects come on, they're like, why am I even on this call? Which is, you probably don't get that. Hopefully, if you have a setting system, right? Then you get problem-aware prospects. They're like, yeah, I, I don't make enough money, right? If, if that's that, like, I don't make enough money, right? Uh, whether it's from my 9 to 5, which you're saying, do you get many of those people, or do they more so like, my problem is my trading sucks?
Yeah, 95% has experience Literally 2.5% of them have like no trading experience, just looking to quit their job. 2.5% is literally like, I'm making $20, $30K, I wanna make 6 figures a month. So 95% is people that already have trading experience and they're either just not making money or they're losing money.
Okay, cool. That's perfect. So we have a sophisticated sales process. So the sales process should look like follow, and I'll explain why it's different to other calls. So typically, with an unsophisticated B2C skills-based, or like, not so— call it a biz op, but it's largely the same. Just, it's, it's typically goal, situation, problem. And the main thing where it forks to be different from what you're going to do is that you're looking to get the effect of the problem, which is pain, which is to get them to say, I'm stressed, and all this other shit, right? Which is the reason you need to do that is because you need these unsophisticated people to get them to start and accept a new way completely new way of doing things is they need to have pain. If they don't have pain, they'll question limiting beliefs like trading's a scam, right? Whereas your customers probably don't, don't think trading's a scam, right? They just need to see the superior— they may if you have those unsophisticated people, but if we're talking about the 95%, the main center of gravity of the sale, which I'll get to, is that they need to believe in the superiority of your mechanism. Of how you help them get better results from trading, right?
Right.
That's what they need. So when you are in problem, unlike the unsophisticated where you get pain, all you're trying to do is get unfulfilled desire. Everything before, depending on how you do a sales process, but if we go goal, situation, problem, all we're trying to do when we get the problem is more so focus on what's the logical reason why they're not getting results if they're trading right now. You don't need to go like, oh, how, like, can you not buy food because you're trading? Obviously.
Right?
What you want to identify is why they're stuck.
Right, right.
But you can only identify if they're stuck if they've given you a goal because a goal is something which is called wanting what isn't had. Right? So you come into the call, what are you looking to achieve? I want this. Typically, the answer will be maybe situation-based, like, oh, right now my XYZ trading in a You need to be able to move past that to achieve the objective of the question, which is like, okay, I hear that's where you are now. I guess like over the horizon, let's say you got better skills from trading. What do you want your portfolio to look like?
Mm-hmm.
Right? This is what I have. I'll give you the script I have for my client who's on one of the top reps on a $2.5 million offer. It pretty much just goes into problem and identify what is their constraint within their strategy right now. Right? And that achieves two things. It helps you identify what the constraint is, but honestly, that's not that important, dude. The main objective is they simply admit that their strategy sucks, right? That's all that matters. You just need them to admit the defeat. That's the main objective in the first 10 minutes of selling a sophisticated trading offer, is the prospect just needs to admit a deficiency. Otherwise, there's no way when you give your, your system that they'll see it as beneficial. Whereas it's not that simple with an unsophisticated person. If you just say, hey, Yeah, you don't know how to trade. Well, no shit, they haven't started. It's more about getting them to get in there and get going. And for them to do that, they need pain. So what do we need to do? Goal, situation, problem just needs to get them to give some kind of language that is an in-principle agreement to their deficiency within their portfolio right now.
Right?
From there, I hit rationale, right? I just like to— the rationale question just makes sure that like they don't think they can DIY. Around that deficiency, right? Like maybe just like focus more on YouTube, look at YouTube stuff. There's loads of free good stuff out there. They're like, no, this is a real problem. I've tried that, doesn't work. Now we've truly put the nail in the coffin that they need help. That's the first part of it. That's the first thing we need to silo in this whole call. If we don't have that belief going into whatever you do next, whether it's objection finding, ideal criteria, pitching, it just will fall on deaf ears at scale.
Right, right.
That's the problem.
Are you struggling there already? Because there's more to be achieved. There's 3 objectives of the whole call. How's that going for you now? Do you have any issues getting them to admit that they have a deficiency and getting some like imprints?
Sorry, I don't want to cut you off.
No worries.
I give you a very clear example. Last week we started running ads. We had someone come in that spent like 10 grand for an offer for 6 months of coaching. Got a bunch of things, problems, everything sounded good. And then it was just like the delivery and the fulfillment was just absolutely shit on that. So now here I am talking about our strategy and like our way of doing objection finding.
That's what you— that's what— that's where it is. It's just every trading offer. It's the critical phase. I talk about it in like 2, 3 YouTube videos. It's the same phase. I told Darcy, didn't I talk about this to you at True Blues? I literally said to you at True Blues.
Yes, about the trading offer. Like find the one biggest objection.
At a keynote, I spoke to him about this. He asked me at a keynote speech.
I forgot what the exact question and answer was.
You basically said, what's the critical phase for me? I'm ramping on this trading offer. And I'm like, it's gonna, I don't even know this. I said, it depends on sophistication, but it's gonna be objection finding. That's always this. It's for any really biz ops, but trading especially. I'll give you, I'll give you, just add me on WhatsApp. I'll give you some core reviews that I did for trading offer clients and like, and shit like that. I'll just give you some stuff. You can see different angles of this. But basically, when you come out, you need that first admittance of a deficiency, like why they're stuck, otherwise why they're on this call, right?
Right.
They need that, right? But then you hit the rationale. From there, this is key. You need to get success metrics, right? This is a key linchpin. I'll explain the question and what it does. Okay. And I'll give you the script so you can look at it. When you come out of problem awareness, what have we achieved? Just a constraint. That they admit in their current approach, right? Cool. Rational just goes like, why don't you— can it be fixed like on your own? No. Okay. It's really a problem. Great. Success metrics. Okay, cool, man. So what is it like? Let's like, let's see success metrics. Where do you want your portfolio to sort of be from, you know, 6 to 24 months from now? Like, where do you want it to be? Right? They may have already given you that somewhat in goal at the top of the call, but typically, you know, you either don't ask goal Or you just go straight into situation, negates having to worry about repeating yourself here. Or if you get goal at the top, it's usually just more of an intangible goal. Like they want more, they want more, I want more like success from my portfolio. Honestly, I don't care. That's not a bad answer to me. Because what it is, as long as you say you, as long as you say you want something, it means you don't have it. That's all I need because I immediately have a gap. So cool. I've got a want. Great. What are you doing now to get there? Not working. Okay. Why is that? These reasons. How long has it been stuck? This long. Okay. And so what shifted for you recently to go like, hey, I actually want to like try to find like a way to solve it? This. Okay. Just to see the rationale behind why I might be looking for outside help with a strategy. Why not just DIY and custom DIY that you should say? Like, why not just go on YouTube? Why not just do that? They'll say, I can't do that. Okay. Success metrics. What do you need? What do you want to achieve? What does success look like? This is where I want my portfolio. Okay, this is the key phase for you. This is the whole center of gravity of these calls, all these B2C calls, to be honest, is it what have you been doing to get the skills or get the strategy so that you can overcome constraint that you set at problem awareness, right? It's not a re-ask of situation. It's like, what are you doing now? You already asked that. Like, what's your strategy now is situation. What's your strategy now? It's not working. In objection finding, it's okay knowing that your current strategy doesn't work, what are you doing to fix it? Right? And then you're gonna get aversions naturally, like you said, where they'll go, well, I did a course, but then they didn't deliver. Right? To save loads of time, I'll make this maybe 5, 10 more minutes and I'll send you a whole fucking training on it because it's like the center of gravity of my coaching style. I do want to review Darcy's call, but Yeah. You go into objection finding and you just essentially identify with a sophisticated person. You don't need to do mindset reframes like 3 nails in the coffin. What have you lost? What will you continue to lose? And what type of mindset shift do you need to have moving forward? Right? You just literally go in and go, okay, what have you been doing to get the strategy or get the skills? And they're like, I, you'll see what they did. They'll explain like, I tried X. You'll go, if you need to ask, what type of results did you get with that? How long ago was that? Okay, this is a key question to keep this alive. They're not just going to lay down and admit they were scared. You're gonna go, okay, what— once you identified that wasn't working, what did you do to pivot, to get a new approach? That's when you'll get an objection. They'll say, well, I didn't because I was— I didn't because after that I got pissed off because they didn't give me help, whatever. They'll say their objection when really, even if they did get fucked by a company, should they have just given up? No, no, right? This is, this is where we just want to get to. Now, with an unsophisticated person here, yeah, you spend time cooking them and reframing them, like all the videos you see on YouTube where you're like, I'm assuming you know that at least some coaches out there get their clients results. Yes. Okay, then why didn't you? And what have you lost? You need to do that to— what have you lost by not getting back on the horse and getting a coach? Like, that's what you do with unsophisticated people. Right? But with people that are already kind of in the game and they really just need, they're like quite aware, they really just need a better approach. Your objective here is the first one you've done is get them to admit a deficiency. The second one that puts these two together is that they see you as a superior offer before you've even pitched. Right? And that's the reason why they didn't get results. So the roleplay, I'll just roleplay with myself. So it looked like this. All right, man. So what have you been doing to get the skills so that you can you know, ultimately get your portfolio to success metrics you just said. All right. This is key that you did the success metrics because if they want to get their portfolio from $1 to $20 million, a $20 a month Discord group will already look shit. You won't have to like smoke it out that much because it looks like dog shit because their goal is way bigger. This is why you get success metrics. So it already creates a real strong linchpin of like anything they tried has to match their goal. And if they didn't, if they're like, oh, I've just been looking around, I'm like, That doesn't sound like a $20K a month strategy. It's already gonna stand out, right? But you don't need, but with sophisticated, you don't need to smash them for it. You just go, okay, what are you doing to get the skills to get here? I've been trying, I tried this, but am I had that go? Yeah, they didn't give me shit. It didn't have any good delivery. Okay. And in what way, just to understand. Oh, they had this, that, and the other. Okay, I might say with other people getting results, I'm not really worried about reframing them and getting them to admit it was their fault, like you do with unsophisticated people. It's not going to make them buy more. It doesn't make them buy. They just need to see you're not like that. So all I do is once I identify what it was that was missing, the center of gravity is in ideal criteria. The next phase where you go, all right, man, well, just to see if we can actually help, like with regards to what they taught you, when it comes to subject, do you know how to skill so that you can benefit? And it will be something that they didn't give them. Right? So it'd be like, okay, when it comes to stop loss, do you know how to XYZ skill something or something so that you don't? And you'll go, no, I didn't. Or like, no, what's that? And you'll go, oh, they didn't. Okay, so they didn't teach you that? No, okay. And when it comes to risk management, do you know how to X so you can benefit? And they'll go, oh, not really, I don't really know that. And you go, okay, and do you feel like if they'd— if they taught you that in the past, like, it would have improved your results if they actually delivered that to you? And they'll be like, yeah, yeah, like, that's what I would have wanted. You're like, right, makes sense. Okay, cool, I, I understand. And now you can basically pitch them. What you've done mentally to them is two things. One, got them to see you're not like the other company, right? And two, that you can help. Like, part of the same. But what we're really doing is that first objective, dude, was to get the prospect to admit a deficiency. The second objective is to get the prospect to believe that you can fix it before you've even pitched. But, but if you, if you technically go from the first objective, which is, um, admitting the deficiency, to going, okay, let me pitch and show you how we can help, you'll read your pitch and they'll think you don't understand and you're going to be like the other company. So there needs to be some kind of resonance and conversation in showing them, I understand why you didn't get results, this is the reason, If you had this, do you feel like you would've got results in the past? And then you just need to have a superior thing. With my offer, for example, I'm at 100% close rate for my own sales call, for my offer for management. And all I do is I just get the deficiency in their current approach to sales management. And in 6 minutes I pitch from the start of the call to 6 minutes is my problem, is my whole call. I just go, what are you hoping to get from this call? What are you doing now to, uh, scale your sales team? They lay out their process, I just cook the fuck out of it, and in 6 minutes I pitch them and they all buy. Because all I— that's the only real things you need to do is get them to admit a deficiency and that you can help them more with sophisticated people, right? Most of my market, thankfully, the reason why I don't do the whole objection finding ideal criteria thing is because, uh, I take a little bit of a different approach. What I just told you is everything you should do with like these when you're selling someone else's offer a lot of the time. If it's yours, then you don't have to, but with mine, I've learned from Matt Ryder. I basically tell them what they need because there isn't really an offer like mine out there. It's usually done for you sales management agency or like a sales course. But I'm— I sell a done with you install where I put everything in the person's business so that they don't have to get raped on a rev share by some crap manager. I teach them how to be good at it. Right, instead of some cornball sales agency guy trying to get to $10K a month or something, right? I get the guy good, and, uh, they just need to hear it from me in the pitch, right, how I'm going to help them. Um, I don't need to— they usually haven't done anything in the past because there isn't much out there, is my point. So I— all I do is go, you admit your deficiency, and then I'll tell you how I'm going to fix it. And that's how I, how I close them. There's no need for future pacing. Just to show you that there's centers of gravity in a sales call that make all the difference between the person buying it or not. And like, I don't know, you might be able to tell me otherwise, but depends on how— this will kind of tell me how really sophisticated your customers are. If you weren't, if you didn't future pace them and tell them like, oh, you know, where are you going to go? Do you think that would lower the likelihood they would buy? I think it wouldn't make much difference.
I already, I already stopped doing that because it doesn't make sense. So what you're saying makes complete sense is just that you're doing it in a more structured way. It makes sense. What you're doing, you know what I mean? Like, it actually is very helpful.
Do you think? Yeah, I'll send you across some calls because it's already theoretical. I'll send you core reviews from things. I'll send you the fucking— a script, and you can see it. You can see me train a guy in a one-on-one. You can watch some meetings and shit. You just get your head around at a little bit different angle. But this is the biggest thing that the industry sucks at. Everyone's good at selling unsophisticated people, getting pain, maybe pre-handling. They don't really understand that the phases benefit, and you're just gonna completely fucking turn off a sophisticated person.
Right.
If you do it wrong, my, one of my one-on-one coaching clients sells a $20K US M&A coaching offer where all the prospects have to have like a $500 grand to a couple million to buy a business.
Right.
And you, and you're going in there and trying to get pain. It's gonna be so weird. It's so weird. And they, they're coming super aware. They've already, they already know that they need help and they need, they need like, uh, due diligence people, lawyers, accountants, people that have bought businesses, they realize they're not gonna DIY. And if you try to get in there and like try to push back and get pain and do all these things that a lot of these B2C like 3K course guys do, they're just gonna get annoyed with the questions. So you need to be sharp. You need to go in and go, all right, I'm gonna be sharp with you. You need to be sharp with me. What's your goal? They'll tell you straight up. You're okay, quick. What are you doing now to get that? Oh, not work. You've really, okay, you've accepted you can't do it. Great. Sweet. What do you feel like you need? Like when it comes to due diligence, do you know how to do this so you can? They admit they have no fucking clue. They admit they have no clue to get to the next level. They say they're good, they're doing $500K a year in high finance in Wall Street, but they want to get to $2 million and not be a fucking drone in Wall Street. They want to be an entrepreneur, right? Right. So let's admit, we're not going to pretend you're not making money and you're homeless. You're doing okay, you're doing well, but you need to admit that you're not going to get to the next level unless we should— otherwise we shouldn't be on this call, right? That's how my calls go with PSO. I just, they just come in and go, yeah, I've got this management job. I'm making about $40K a month, but I'm worried about losing it because I don't want to be found out that I actually, I'm not that good at our data. They're always like shit at data. And that's why people come to me because they know I'm good at data. So they'll just admit they're not good at data. And I'll go, okay, just so I understand like where your baseline is, uh, when it comes to, uh, identifying the epistemic problem, do you know how to actually look through the data so you're not solving like the wrong problem? Because there's always like 4 problems in a business, but do you know how to identify the right one? So that you actually move the needle and your sales team get better? And they're like, no. I'm like, okay, that's all I really need is one or two of those little deficiencies admitted. And then when I pitch them, they're like, they come in going like, okay, this guy's— they're not sitting in the pitch going, is this even fucking good? You know, you just need to make sure they're nice and they admit the deficiency. They— there's a kind of a frame that you can help. And then when you pitch, uh, you don't need a future pace like I thought you didn't. Um, right. They know, you know what I mean?
Okay, it makes a lot more sense. I appreciate it. I know we're running a little over time, so—
No, good, man. I think that's it. I've exhausted all I can from theory. Uh, just, um, just fucking, uh, what do you call it, message me in, um, in WhatsApp. Okay, I'll do. I'm just sending it here, 565-575-3131, the Dubai number. It's in the, it's in the chat. Uh, you can just say, hey dudes, uh, just send me over some of the stuff if you have anything regarding sophisticated people. But for trading offers, it's not much different from my own offer. Anything where you have, when you're selling a skill above the status quo, that's basically the strategy that I take.
Gotcha.
Cool. Darcy, my friend, appreciate your patience. We'll get in and review. Do you want to review?
Do you have other questions you want to ask first?
Yeah, I'll review this one. I need share privileges.
The last week the lead quality was dog shit. So the numbers of like, um, conversion was like shit. And I think the last 6 calls or 7 calls I've taken this week, uh, it was like 5 of them were Indian and I just don't know how to fucking sell those people, bro.
Um, holy fuck. And there's a couple, but I would honestly, I'd honestly, yeah, like with, with those, there is a strategy to selling Indians, which I won't go down the full route a lot of the time. Honestly, I wouldn't like, it's like kind of red herring. Yeah, like as you can see here, you just have to basically like fucking stomp them. Like, unfortunately.
Yeah, that's what I actually—
you have to be so direct. You have to just be like, what do you need? Yeah, like this guy is that because they're so like the way they are, you can honestly be rude to them and they actually don't even register.
Yeah, yeah, like this guy, I'm not even gonna play it, bro. He showed up on the fucking beach holding the—
yeah, and they just want this. All right, you just go— it's— they go, uh, I want a discount. My mate was number one Hyundai car salesman in Australia for Hyundai, and he just said his strategy was you go in the showroom, they're looking at the car, and they're like— he goes up to him and just goes, you want to buy it? And they're like, uh, yeah, yeah, uh, I want discount. Which tells you what? Imagine if you went to most people and said, do you want to buy it? They'd be like, massive sales resistance. But they don't even get resistance. They're like, I want discount. They immediately want to go into bartering, which tells you that they're not really interested at all. They're just like fucking around.
So yeah, um, they like getting everything and giving nothing, I've noticed. Yes.
So you have to kind of Run your process, but be skeptical in a way, but don't be so skeptical you don't play the game, but you just run it. If they don't comply with the objectives and answer the questions that everyone answers that has ever bought it, why would you think they're gonna be a buyer? So I would just be like, I don't think, I'm just looking for the door in a way.
Yeah, that's what I try to do as soon as I hop on. But this guy's a good guy. I just find I'm like a lacking direction in calls, bro. So it's like, I can sort of get the problem. It's just like, they've given me this super shit script, which is like the future pace, for example, is like, 'What makes you smile and fucking wakes you up in the morning?' I'm not asking that shit. I'd rather like—
Okay, okay, okay.
Yeah, I fucking hate that question. But yeah, and then I'm doing obviously like the other way. It's just like I'm kind of—
These guys are pretty straightforward.
Good, thanks.
This meeting is being recorded.
Can you see me all right?
Yeah, I can see you fine. Yep, perfect.
Can I ask a favor? Can I do it?
Yeah, please.
Yeah, just send me the link in the chat or in WhatsApp, one of the two. Yeah, cool.
Can you see that?
Yep, I see. Okay, cool. What I want to do is a few things here.
Just, uh, share my screen because that's probably the only half decently qualified call I've had this week.
Cyber or trading?
Sorry, cyber.
Yeah, yeah, cyber.
Cool, cool.
Um, sweet. Let me hit it here. A fucking review. I have 8 closers in fucking cyber, I think, at this point. So I've got my head around there. Just a reminder, is this existing people get promoted or is it zero to one get into the tech space?
It's zero to one get in the tech space, but it's not like start to do anything like FES where you're freelancing. It's like we have any employment partner. So like ComBank all the way through to—
but yeah, conceivably pretty similar. They're just looking for a job guarantee. Like almost, yeah, just looking to make the change. So there's two sales you need to make in these ones, unlike trading. But sometimes with trading, you need to get them to buy into entrepreneurship, then buy into trading with you. But with this one, have you ever, have you identified at least that there's two sales you need to make, which is one, it's like, yeah, sure, go with us. But two, do you ever get objections about them even making the career transition, let alone going with you to do it?
Not really going with us because we're the only ones that actually focus on cyber and do the job placement. We don't guarantee a job, that's like 96%.
You just need to close them on, you need to close them on getting, uh, making the career change, like whether they want to make the change. Is that right?
Yeah, pretty much. That's the main thing.
Okay. Meeting is being recorded.
Give me a minute, right?
Yeah, I can do fine. Yep.
Perfect. Perfect.
Good.
Um, let's, let's get into it, man. I know obviously morning people want to get stuff done. Um, but yeah, obviously had a chat last week. So like, I think the, the main thing we were also covering was like, um, I think it was more so like the salary and growth, right? That was sort of the priority for you?
Yeah.
Okay, perfect. Perfect. These calls are pretty straightforward. It's more so like to sort of see if we can help, and then like from there it's more so like mapping out the study, just making sure like, you know, if cyber is sort of the right fit, like if you want to go into it, it's sort of like a bit more like clearer on like what to actually study, what the pathway is going to look like, and then sort of how to like crack into the first role. So with the pre-call material, how did you find it? Did it like bore you to death? Was it helpful? What were your sort of thoughts?
No, it's not typically my style, but I can see where you're going there. It's fine. Do you like the Not to fucking any PQ. Do you like your intro?
I like didn't, I cut the structure, but not really.
I mean, I should ask more. Sorry, it's a bit too open of a question. Do you think it achieves all it needs, which is basically that would be told by they don't fuck around, they answer your questions. Do you think it sets a good enough frame and brings them in at the right energy level?
I literally just added that during the call. I feel like it would just so it kind of sort of sets the agenda where it's not an interview. They don't need to rock up in a suit and tie, but also it's not a fuck around where they just ask me for the price.
Yeah. Okay, cool.
It doesn't know.
It's not too crazy. It's like more like Matt style. It's like, oh, it looks like we booked some time here. All right, cool. Yeah.
Oh, it was good.
Like Fez is quite on the nose, but it does set a good precedent. It's like, it sets the energy right.
Yeah.
And it gets, it's pretty good. It's more about, I'm just more want to look at the frame isn't super important depending on how your prospects end up responding, but I just want to hear the first.
So like you're talking about the videos, right? That on the website. Yeah. No, it was interesting. I mean, like they're pretty short and easy to digest. I got a pretty good understanding of, I always like to ask reps this.
What benefit do you get out of asking what the prospect thought of the— what's the objective of asking the prospect what they thought of the pre-call stuff?
I like seeing what sort of resonated. I can at least see where they're sort of at. Like if they say, yeah, it was good, I'm like, okay.
They're just going to tell you how warm or cold they are, or more specifically, like what shit they're looking for, like skill-wise. Yeah.
And like, if they actually found it helpful, and I just to know as well if they actually fucking went through it, unless I have to get the whole spiel of what we did.
Because there's like a few key things you can achieve, really, the kind of real like strong objectives you'll achieve by it. One is like setting a frame, like Josh Lyons is, which is like, if you want to do that, he goes all in on it and he goes, did you make the time to go through the training? Not did you make—
did you—
what is it, what do most people say? Did you get a chance to go through the training? He'll say, did you make the time to go through the training? And it sets a frame of like that you should have done it, and it gives a bit of big dog. If you want, if you want that, that's the angle you go. If you're going more so just to go, let's see where this guy's awareness is, like how cooked he is, like does he get, does he, is he like hot or cold?
Yeah, because I've also done before sometimes with people I know are kind of iffy, I'm just like, all right, oh, because like that's sort of like one of the requirements of our employment policy that shows you're actually committed and you're actually going to be able to do like 10 hours of study a week.
Yeah, and it's just like sets a bit of a frame there, like are you showing up for real and gets them serious. Yeah, if you're going down that route and that's your intention, you'll do it right, you'll say it right, as long as you know why you're doing it. And you don't like go, you know, oh, what did you think of 32 minutes into this video? Like, and like, you just don't know why you're getting it. And I've asked so many reps this and they're like, I'm like, how are you going to use this to make the benefit the sale? And they don't know. So as long as you know, that's fine. It'll come off right. The other, other thing, um, I always consider is that you can, you kind of said it there is if they give you like literal content and ammo in their answer, like I liked how specifically you teach X. It kind of gets you an understanding of what their conditions of satisfaction are. Like, for example, they might say, I really like how you help with the interviewing and like you help with the whole process of getting the job. I'm like, okay, this guy's more focused on getting the job than he is about the skills. It's not a problem. It just like tells me a little bit about what his conditions, what he thinks this is for him.
Yeah, exactly. Because some people, they'll say like, how did you find it? Like, how'd you go? And they'll be like, yeah, yeah, I actually didn't think you guys helped that much with like the job placement, which I was like kind of scared about. Because I was really concerned, like, actually getting a job. Yeah, yeah.
And it tells you, okay, this guy's like, he's gonna need to believe the shit out of that. We're gonna get him a job.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, cool.
As long as that's fine.
So hearing the testimonials from some of the students, I'm assuming that they're real students, not like, um, I wouldn't— funny students.
I'd push back on that.
Yeah, I'd hope so, man.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, yeah, one of the two. You can either do that where you basically don't accept it. You're like, yeah, yeah, I'd go no, they were all paid actors. Yeah, I would personally do that at this point.
I was so stumped with this because this is 3 in the morning, bro, and I fucking had 2 hours of Yeah, yeah, just like this guy—
play it loose, it's fine.
So um, yeah, like I got a decent idea about what to expect.
Okay cool!
And did anything sort of resonate in terms of cybersecurity or anything you're unsure about? It cleared up?
Yeah so like the consulting pathway that seemed interesting to me more than the tech technical side of things.
Yep sure, good job not probing it and going "Oh why is that?" and then like you go off the weeds and just stay on topic. All we were trying to do was get him to edify what he lacked and not go off on it. A lot of reps will be like, oh, that sounds like I can get him to talk more about what he liked, and then you're fucking off on the talking about half consulting. It's like not the goal.
Like, learn more about what consulting entails.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they typically have the two pathways. They've got more technical and then you've got more consulting. We find like most students going in, like, it doesn't really matter too much. Um, it's more so like your first year especially. It's more so understanding like what you're actually like enjoying, what you're good at. It's the same as the actual training. And then from there, I mean, we usually also like tailor the applications for setting you up to go down either technical or consulting. Um, but most of your first roles are all very similar. Um, but we can absolutely sort of get into that with like yourself. Like, what do you feel like you were sort of needing like help with in terms of like transitioning into cybersecurity?
Um, I guess like, um, getting my head around the technical aspects of it.
Um, because the question gets a very— it depends if that's what you want. How I would run it is I just want to get the end goal because the question you ask does lean towards them giving a very technical answer, which is a which is a, a logical condition of satisfaction, but it doesn't tell you why you need it. Like, I, I need help with this and that. Like, I, I, okay. Like, I need help with, what does he say? Because I, I want help with the technical, get my head around the technical aspect.
Yeah.
I guess it's implicit that like he wants that so he can get a job. I like to just get my goal a little bit, like the outcome you want to achieve. And then, you know, the inside of that, how to get there, we'll get to, which is the technical aspects. I personally do that in ideal criteria, objection finding. I don't really wanna do any of that yet. But it doesn't, as long as you run it, like what are you going to do when they say that? Like how do you, what do you do? Do you go, what are you doing?
Um, I think I do it here. Like sometimes I put a label on it and then I'm like, okay, it gives me a bit of an idea, but I kind of like half know while I'm doing it. Like I just get the tangible help, but it's not really, I've actually kind of switched to like, what was the biggest reason for actually like making a career change now?
I guess that's it. That's really like you see on Feds.
That's what I do.
Um, I guess like, um, because I think I mentioned before, like I'm not much of an IT person. I Like most of my skill set lies in like medical science, not even medical science so much, health science.
Yeah, because this to me is like in the middle of ideal criteria, like about 10 minutes into the call.
So health science and—
Yeah, sure. We find like we can obviously teach the cyber skills, like IT skills.
See how the call's a bit back and forth and you're making coaching statements early in the call?
Yeah.
It creates a frame of back and forth too much where you both can make statements and stuff. Whereas what I want to set in the call is just like, I'm asking the questions. And I'm trying to do discovery of pure asking questions. And, and, and even if I did make, even if he did make that statement, I wouldn't be making a next statement off it. Like, I wouldn't be going, yeah, yeah, because with that, you know, like, the rooming houses model is, like, super fluid. Oh, yeah, because with cybersecurity, you do this. It's like, it, it risks sounding too pitchy and giving them the feeling in their mind that they can do this. I'm not—
Yeah, just like telling them—
This isn't accessible to you yet. Like, I don't know if I can help. So I don't go, oh yeah, yeah, good, because you liked it because of this. Okay, great. Like, I don't want to give any indication early that, that I'm selling you this. Yeah.
Yeah.
Just go, all right, cool. Sure.
Yeah. I just go, okay, that makes sense. So maybe it sort of, you feel like it's important to get the tech side, the specific, the tech skills, just getting your head around that. Okay. That makes sense.
Yeah.
We'll certainly touch on that. And I guess like, just to understand, let's say you got the skills, you got your head around the tech, like what's the main reason So what's like sort of the main outcome you want to achieve from having the skills and making the change? This is the goal. Okay, cool. And what are you doing now for work? And that's going to start creating some necessity of even doing this altogether, let alone like we're hot, we're, we're too deep, you know?
Yeah.
It's like going to a chick and saying, oh, what do you want for dinner when we go out? It's like, okay, it's kind of cocky. I like that actually. It's a good one. But it's kind of like, let's make sure she even wants to go to dinner. You know what I mean? If you were trying to run this process, like you have some, a little bit of just building it.
Yeah, sure. We find like, obviously if you're in sales too, it's a lot of communication. Those are sort of the main things that will transfer, especially over into consulting. It's not some make or break, like, you know, it's not like— What was sort of like the main reason for actually wanting to change careers at the moment?
Yeah, just to cap off, I would have come straight out of the frame and hit this point.
What was sort of like—
Yeah, so I think I've sort of hit a bit of a a standstill with my, with progressing in my sales role. Um, so I, I'm finding that, um, like I'm working alongside colleagues who have been—
Okay, I literally heard a call, reviewed a call yesterday where the prospect, uh, answered the goal. Same thing, you asked that question. It's crazy, offers are not different. Literally that question and the prospect said, I don't have enough upward mobility. But this person's saying like money-wise there's room for upward mobility, but that's dependent on whether I'll be interested in still in the product. So a little bit different, but, uh, this is an example of when you ask the goal question. I should ask you, Since you've been asking this, how often do you, because it's a question of, look, yeah, you could argue that it could be answered about the problem, but we're asking it for the goal. How often do the prospects give you their problem when you ask this question instead of their goal?
Yeah, yeah, more often.
Yeah, it's fine. It just means you have to understand in your process, bro, you need to start working out in your prospects like with, with Zen. Heaton, if you know Zen, he's— yeah, yeah, he, he asks that question and he often gets the prospect going, well, right now, semi-situation, mainly problem answer. They'll go, right now I'm in a job I don't like, I'm stuck. I tell him, he was like relentlessly looping because the objective is to get the goal. I'm like, bro, the problem's right there. The hardest thing is getting out of situation into problem, getting them to like naturally admit the problem that you've got him saying problem. Just go, just go. Just take problem. Just go, oh, what's that? How long has that been going on? Flare it the fuck out. Get all the pain behind it. Just take a problem. That's my, that's my point here is if you ask that first question, they give you problem, I just cook the fuck out of it, take it, and then at the end I go, oh, by the way, like, let's say you, you know, that wasn't an issue, like, where do you want to be? And I'll get goal at the end of problem.
Yeah.
So just, that's just how I think about all my questions in my, my process on my, the Rep Psych Coach process. I'm like look at your question. Unless you really want goal, you can then change the question a bit.
Yeah.
In future, so you always get a goal answer. But with me, I always go with what Matt Ryder talks about. It's just not having too heavy of an agenda, not overloading the shit out of your scripted questions.
Yeah.
I like to ask a question that technically you probably could answer as goal or problem and which would I, whatever they do, if they answer goal, I'm like, great, situation. I ask the situation question. If they answer problem, I'll just go down problem. Take it while it's hot, extract everything I need, and then come back and get goal.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then once I've got that, I'm now at the— I'm at the same time frame in the call, but I have goal and problem nonetheless, and I get the rationale.
Yeah, I found for my style, like, when I ask for the goal, they often give something broad, but once they understand the problem, they know the opposite of that, because it's—
and then they're like, that's what I'm happy to do too. That's why I don't do that relentless— like, I don't know if it's 7th level, but like, I used to see it there where like they say like, I want to make more money, and everyone's like, oh, no one comes to us, and you just choke the shit out of them. I don't really care. As long as you say it's like something you want, some kind of gap, I'm going to go down situation problem and I'm going to get the goal again in success metrics. And then again, implicitly after like objection finding, ideal criteria. And if I future pace, well, I'm definitely going to get the goal. I just need, I just need a bit. I just need something. So I'm of the same thinking that I don't really need the greatest answer in the world.
Yeah.
So I think I've sort of, um, hit a bit of a a standstill with my, with progressing in my sales role. So I'm finding that like I'm working alongside colleagues who have been in the role for like 8 to 10 years and they've started like money-wise, there's room for upward mobility through commissions, but that's dependent on whether I'll be interested still in the products that we're selling. Like, I mean, there's also an interest factor as well. Like I've been doing this for a year and a half and I feel like I've got my head around the products that we sell, but Um, would I want to continue selling these for the next 5 to 10 years? I don't know. I'm not sure.
What sort of makes you say that? Like, are you— what, you don't feel it helps people?
That's a bucket question. Hmm. So you got a no-no-no. You lost frame because you suggested the answer. So what you— it was a beautiful probe. Oh, what sort of makes you say that? And just like, it's nice and like, oh, how's that? It's not like, when you say word, what do you mean by that? Like, like a weird NPQ. Yeah, it's like when you say you want a sandwich, like, how do you mean by that?
Yeah, exactly.
Your probe is good, but then you bucket it and he says, no, no, it definitely helps people. Now, like, even if he said yes, it, that's why you said it, not him. So don't say anything. Let them say it all. That means it's because when you ask an open question, it's top of mind. What's top of mind is most emotional. They own it by saying it. And you just at scale with your sales process, you know, if you, if every prospect is slightly different and you're just bucketing the same shit, Uh, you just do— at worst you'll get a no-no and you've lost frame. The whole point is that they need to feel like you have some kind of, um, mystical resonance where you're never like out of alignment with how they feel. And if you go, is it a bit of— is it a bit of because of this? They're like, no, it's more of that. You know, imagine if a doctor said to you, oh, you've got a headache, is it— oh yeah, with your headache, is it in the back of your head? They're like, no, it's in the front. You're like— I'd be thinking as a patient, like, this guy's like not in line with me yet. You know, so you just want to keep it light. Scott, what makes you say that? Don't ever buck. If you need to prompt, if you feel like you need to prompt, right? You want the, you feel like the prospect needs some kind of prompting, don't buck it. You can go, okay, well, just so you're aware, like some of our clients that come to us from sales, the reason why they're like not satisfied is they just don't like selling what they sell. Or some of our other clients are just not satisfied with the money regardless of what they sell. They sell. So I guess specifically for you, what's sort of making you unsatisfied?
Yeah, sometimes too, but it's just—
just don't— yeah, cool, just don't back up.
Oh no, it definitely helps people. It's just, um, I think that like in terms of like interest level, my— it's kind of like, uh, having like a low attention span. Like my interest level sort of, um, fluctuates a little bit. Um, and if, if there isn't like— if there's— if I'm not in a field where there's heaps of information to, you know, attain and then make use of and then, um, and then work with. I tend to get bored a little, like, quite quickly. Um, for some reason I get the feeling that cybersecurity is like a field where he always talked his way out of it.
Yeah, it's just going down the wrong fucking direction.
That's why as soon as he said that, when he goes bored and I heard that label, I was like, as soon as I heard that, I was like, oh, he should have said how long has that been going on. You got all you need in terms of the effect of the problem here. You've got enough, you've got enough pain to close someone. Basically, a lot of people think you have to get 50 problems.
Really? Even just of him saying like, I'm bored.
Yeah, he's given enough irritation. Like he said, he already said some shit here. Like, yeah, this, this, same people in it for 8 years, this, this and this. And then I would have just, as soon as he said it, he goes bored. That's like a strong label. I would have said, how long do you feel, how long have you felt that way? And to be honest, I probably would have probed earlier if he felt like he was making enough money. He did say he can make the money, but he doesn't want to make it. So there's like the money's, he's told me the money is there, but he doesn't really want to make it doing this because it's unsatisfying. It's not that he doesn't feel like the product helps, is that the, the skill itself isn't satiating to him. I was, and he's, that's enough. I'll go, how long has that been going on?
Yeah.
I also get problem again later in objection finding when I go like, what will you continue to leave on the table if you don't make the change? And they'll go like money, dissatisfaction, family time. All these things are problems, you know. So I would have just probed on that, but my interest level sort of—
for some reason I get the feeling that cybersecurity is like a field where it's not a bad thing.
He's talking himself out of it as if he's making a gap for himself. Yeah, it's not terrible. I just— it's not in the pattern of problem, that's all.
Yeah, I think I've made the mistake of like thinking like, oh, I'm bored, it's repetitive, it's monotonous, it's X and Y and Z and blah blah blah as like a surface level answer. Yeah, where I, I'm just like mistaken.
I get, I get it. Jackson as well, a bunch of other guys that come to me from like certain B2C offers, they're like the prospect, they thought the prospect needs to be crying, like basically in problem. They need to be like shitting all over their life and being in so much pain to make a change. I just get them to see that it's just never, whatever the problem is, it's never going to change and we're going to layer the call. Like most salespeople see that like you only have one shot at doing your thing. I go goal, which is my first goal, success metrics is my second one, future pace if there is it, and then the pitch is implicitly like a future pace as well as a way of getting goals. There's 4 phases in the call and by separating it, getting problem makes it easier for them to see their goal when I do a second loop on it in success metrics. Yeah. And again, in future pacing. Now for problem, I get it in problem, it's deepened by rationale, they're further stuck via what we get clear in objection finding. And if I do consequence, then it's there as well. But so really, if there's only two play— I only really need to do it in problem and then do it in objection finding. When I go, what have you lost? What will you continue to lose? And what type of shift do you need to make moving forward? That creates a ton of urgency over whatever the problem is. If they say— if I go, what will you continue to lose? And they go, well, I might just be a little bit bored, then I'm going to be able to see that. That never happens though. Right? Yeah. But they're giving enough. Otherwise you can say, okay, outside of that, you're not having that satisfaction. How does that make you feel every day? But that's pretty psychological. That's a pretty like mad psychological question. You can do it if you want. You can also say, what's that holding you back from doing though that you would otherwise do? And then you're just gonna get more gap. But I honestly, for some reason I get the feeling that cyber security is something that I do similar to Matt is the core seems quite light, but it's because it, it layers over time and it builds a lot of momentum by revisiting things.
Security is like a, a field where there's lots of things to learn and there's like, kind of like never envisioned this. Like if I, correct me if I'm wrong, but yeah. And where I am right now, like it's, that's not the case. Like it's, okay, cool.
So he's, he's come back into problem. It's okay.
It's, it's interesting enough what I'm doing, but, um, I can't see myself doing it for the next 5 years.
Do you know, do you know, so just last thing, do you know why I like, kind of like to keep the prospect in the pocket of the phase? It's not to be like autistic or scripted. It's just that there's a, there's every sale is in a specific emotional pattern that is the same regardless of what you're selling. Mm. Right? And it's just simply, this usually fucks up with this using the pen on this thing, but it's, uh, if you think of it like this, goal, situation, problem, and then you start doing objection finding, which is worse, but we're sort of walking our way out of it. Ideal criteria, future pace, and then you pitch them, and it's this big valley, right? Whereas if we're going, if we're in situation, if we're in problem here, he went problem and he talked himself out of it going, that's why I like cybersecurity, but I'm not there now. And technically this, this whole here, this whole like little, this little up and down I showed you. Yeah. That's the same length as this line here that went down into problem deeper. Does that, I know that's a bit abstract, but does that make sense? It's kind of like you, you, I'll do it one more time.
So I, I sort of know what you mean. You more so mean like when he answered those questions, we should be deeper than what he's answering.
Yeah, exactly. So you, if you stayed in the pocket, you would have got to this distance here.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's, it's almost like what he did was go, uh, out of it, and then here, like, he, he just said it's not the case. This length of this hump is the same, it would have filled, would have taken us here. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of a, it's a completely abstract concept, but It makes sense. Because of keeping the prospect in the pocket and probing down and down and down and down without interrupting it, you'll get deeper. And then, and then what that is, is all, and then it, this, everything is juxtaposed. So because you came out of problem at this depth, when you do future pacing or anything, it's, it, this is the point it gets to with future pacing.
Yeah.
I would've gone from here to here.
Yeah.
You went from here to here. So it's just that I like to make the call very pointy. And clear and phase-based, it seemingly blends because I like interweave the phase. I'm like, okay, that makes sense. And I guess like, and then go to the next phase. They don't really notice that it's like a subject matter each phase, but it's very pointy in the sense is like they get deep on their problems and very deep on their goals and very deep on this and very deep on that without interrupting.
This one sounds like you do that.
Is it just don't acknowledge the content of what they're saying? When they, when they're in problem and he goes, that's why I really like the look of cybersecurity. I'll go, oh, okay. So you just don't feel satisfied. See how I didn't actually— Yeah.
You just ignored him. Yeah.
Yeah. I don't ignore and go, mm, I don't wanna talk about that. But I go like, if he goes, oh, I'm really, I really don't like my job. It's unsatisfying and cybersecurity looks really good and satisfying because of X, Y, Z reason. I'll go, oh, okay. So you don't feel like your job's satisfying now. I wouldn't say that. That's like, that's like mirror puppeting, but like, you see what I'm saying? I would only acknowledge what I wanted. Yeah, yeah, that's just because I want him to stay in the pattern that he needs to, uh, to lower the action threshold from the emotion that he gets.
Yeah. Um, I was gonna ask, like, I know obviously, like, ideal criteria, like, sort of— it sounds like a dumb question— what outcome do I specifically want from ideal criteria? And like, how do I actually use that? Because like, often I'll just do it like before future pace because it just naturally leads into like, um, you know, like, oh, okay, what do you feel like you need help with? Put a label on it. And then I go into like goal. I'm like, all right, if we could set this in place and then like you achieved X and Y and Z, like what would that actually allow you to do?
Yes. No, you're, you're, you're achieving a good objective by it's getting to the prospect to believe the future-based. Like without this, without what they need, they won't believe the future-facing you do. You do achieve one of the objectives. That's good. What it can be used for though is multiple reasons. One of which is if the prospect has some ego about the DIY.
Yeah.
Still, it creates a skill gap if you do it appropriately, right? In other aspects, if the prospect has potential, they're not really sure, then they have maybe some aversion over whether they'll get the right coaching, right? And they may need an identity shift. It's the most unsophisticated prospect. You basically do this, you'll go, let's just do this just to see if what we're doing would work for you. Let's say you, yep, sat down, mapped out the perfect program for you to get to XYZ goal. What type of training and support do you feel like you'll need to get there?
Yeah.
And they'll go like, they'll either say the what, which is like, I need the cybersecurity training. No shit. Or they'll say the how, which is I like to have support and coaching and be able to reach out to anyone and get help.
Yeah.
And then what we really want is the gold standard answer is the why. They go, I feel like I just need a, like all the training so that It gives me the confidence to get the job. You want them to give like an exhaustive cause and effect answer. It's just gonna do what the objective is, is the edification or the emphasizing of the benefits of the solution. So they just start telling you and themselves what they need and why it's important. So it just increases their certainty in the mechanism before you pitch them. But mostly what I do is I use it as a fork, ideal criteria. I'll send over the call that I did review of Jacob Keane. The guy goes, he goes, what have you been doing to get better? This is objection finding. He goes, what have you been doing to get better? The guy goes, oh, I was gonna get into flipping, but I thought it's just so super expensive to get into the market. I can see now that the profit is there, but it's just been too expensive in the past. What Jacob does is instead of mindset smashing the guy, he just goes into ideal criteria and builds a skill gap so that the guy overcomes that objection over that it's too expensive. Through seeing that it was a skill deficiency.
Yeah, because if you had the skills, you had the money.
Exactly, which is money partners, whatever it is.
Yeah, I remember Chris talking about that, about Kingdom.
That's what Chris is getting really good at. He's going, okay, he goes to— Jacob goes, when it comes to, uh, uh, offsetting capital gains, do you know how to— I'll show it to you. When it comes to offsetting capital gains, you know how to actually— you can— why? And he does that. You won't use that that much, dude, because they don't have a lot of they don't have any con— like Fez, you don't do it because they don't have any tech experience. Like you're going, when it comes to JavaScript, do you know how to XYZ? They're like, no, like I have no context. Yeah. So typically what Fez will do at most is that real simple version, which is just, okay, let's just do this just to see if what we're doing would work for you. What do you feel like you need to get there? And just get them to edify the benefits and then use it to get them to believe in their future pacing.
Yeah.
For old mate, for Darryl, he would do skill gap because they need to believe that you can do better than what they have already. You need to have a skill gap. Like, what's his name? Jacob Keynes of Redmane. These people all have bought like 2 flipping courses and they're worried it's going to be the same crap shit. So he needs to go, okay, you have skepticism over coaches. Do you know this skill? They're like, no. He's like, well, they didn't teach you that? And he goes, no. And he goes, can you see it's because you had a shit course, not because of us? That you didn't get results? And they'll be like, yes. And then you'll go, okay, cool. And he's cleared the objection through making it a skill deficiency, like Daryl needs to do with you. You just really would only use it to get them to believe in the future pacing you're going to do.
Yeah.
So you're already achieving it.
Yeah. Should I change like the ideal criteria where I like sort of like— bro, it's kind of bullshit with the, the script. It's like, oh, you need to have a doctor's mindset and all this like generic stuff. It doesn't actually help. They get me to ask like all these questions on all the pillars to sort of like map it out for them before the pitch. I find it sort of helps, but it's just like makes the pitch like way too long. And it's basically just going through and saying, oh yeah, because we do this. Oh yeah, you need this because we do this. And then just repeats the whole thing again. The pitch is just pointless.
Oh yeah. Overly doing it. It's like, oh yeah, that's why we do this. And then also you're shoving it too early. You might have to have like, what's the first time you start doing that? What's like the first instance you do that on the call?
No, that's like right before the pitch. And then I literally repeat it twice. So I'm thinking like, Should I just do that as the ideal criteria in that order? Like straight after?
I mean, so you're saying you lead into the pitch and go, you know how you said this, we're going to give you that. You know, you said this, we're going to give you that. When you said this, we're going to give you that. And then you go in and pitch again.
No, it's more so like, you know, a bit of, all right, cool, Jack, let's do this because it's typical what I do. Like, I'll ask a few questions around like the support training, XYZ, blah blah blah you need, and then we can sort of like map out your career roadmap. So write down Jack's fucking cybersecurity career roadmap.
All right, cool.
Like when you've done training in the past, like what sort of caused you to get roadblocked or stuck? And it's like going through things like that. It's like, okay, but I don't really, it's not my style.
I mean, it seems a little bit, it seems a little bit, I get it, but it's, it sounds like something that someone that isn't in sales had like a harebrained idea for.
That's like, it makes sense.
It makes logical sense, but it doesn't persuade people. It gets emotionally a little bit flat. It's like kind of too logical, especially for unsophisticated people. I might have that chat with like, you know, your founder. If I'm like, I go, what do you need in terms of like to grow, like a proposal to grow your fucking business this time? But with these people, unsophisticated, make the career change, they just need the confidence that you're gonna fucking be there. Yeah. Right? And like, you're gonna be around in ideal criteria. And honestly, you know, Fazbro, they don't even do it. Um, doesn't even do it. Yeah, he doesn't even do it, bro. Uh, I think Jackson goes straight into how much time do you have to commit to the career path. It doesn't happen overnight, but you need to put in the time. Like, this is like this frame of how much time do you have? Okay, that'll tell us when you're going to get the job. It doesn't happen overnight. That makes it realistic so they believe the future pays. Um, and Selmo had just messaged me the other day because he's just got on FEZ, and he goes, oh dude, like the ideal criteria is like useless on this call. I'm like, yeah, I know, you don't even need to do it because the only thing you can do is get some points out of what you're doing, which is just to get them to believe they're going to get the support around them. But yeah, they don't have a— they don't really like— okay, I don't know, just like other, other than the support aspect, you go, how do you learn? Uh, like anything more than that would be pointless.
Yeah, because I'm just trying back and forth.
You should be telling them what they need other than Yeah, like, I don't know. It doesn't seem like it's going to do much.
No, it's not, because I'm just trying to like step away from the whole framework. Obviously, I'm on a full-time role. I'm not a contract. So it's like they pay for the leads. It's kind of like I got to do what I'm told, which is fine.
But you're just going to keep it light away. You don't want to do it.
Yeah, that's what's happened. Even with like stringing me out as closer, which that's a whole nother story of like still including setting shit. But yeah, I'm just trying to like keep my own framework that's actually working. Not my own framework, just like what's actually working.
What's the emotional pattern? That you need overall is you, you just, you know what, let them win the battles when it comes to like do this extra shit. Try to stop it from hurting the sale, but if it doesn't, you just do it. But the main thing you need to win is the emotional pattern. That's the main thing is that do you get the main things you need in an honest— do you get pain the way you want to do it? Do you get the removal of limiting beliefs? Yeah. Do you get the insertion of gain beliefs through the pitch? Objection finding will help remove lean release and you get problem— pain and problem. As long as they don't make you fuck that up with all this, like, yeah, like, some people come, uh, are you facing this problem? Are you facing that problem? Or as long as they don't make you go like, what's the really keeping you up at night? Any of these things that fuck up problem awareness, fuck up pre-handling, and fuck up, uh, the belief that they'll get to their goals. Uh, that's the main thing. If there's these little tactics— I've seen it before, I've been there when I was 6 months into closing I thought, oh, I'm gonna paste every fucking guru's sales script into one script, and I didn't— could not tell you why I'm saying half the shit. I'm like, this sounds persuasive. Yeah, draw the line in the sand like 5 minutes in.
What lets you off and puts a smile on your face?
Yeah, yeah, that shit. I'm like, oh, it's gonna push you, it's gonna convince. And I'm like, I realized like, dude, it's completely interrupting. I did consequence like after fucking— after fucking, uh, I don't know, problem awareness or something.
Discovery. Yeah, because it's an offer, bro, where, um, It's just like they're measuring the success of closes on Lidable by deals closed, not cash collected. And you got a guy that's closed $500 deposit and he's like, yeah, look at me, I'm on the top of the hill. And you got like a guy at the bottom.
Deals from units sold.
Yeah, they're doing it from units sold.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's very corporate because they had Sales Night.
Yeah.
They just scrapped it.
They probably think, well, the people are going to pay it off, so they kind of incentivize it that way. How much can we get people in? But It doesn't really— you're right, it creates a downstream decision-making process of just get sales, not like close as many people, you know. It's like committed coaches, they're like, it's about finding buyers, not making buyers. I'm like, this is why you all suck at the skill and you just rip $380 a day. Yeah, because you don't have any incentive.
Yeah, because I think I just, I just gotta grind out, bro, until I'm top rep. There's like no excuse for it. It's like fucking great offer to sell on, like there's so much opportunity, bro. And just like long-term going to just get the skills, going to Fez or something similar, bro, where it's like there's actual like longevity in an offer and it's like a lot more skillful than selling like BizOp to like—
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think, dude, you're at least you've got your head in the right place in terms of market. Either sell real estate or sell cyber or fucking something. Normies fucking just eat it up.
Bro, cyber's so good at the moment. Everyone's just getting made redundant, going to cyber.
Yeah. All right.
Such a good, it's like there's the whole like cyber narrative.
It's just such an easy thing to convince people of. I was telling my partner about it yesterday. It's like they believe already that there's a zeitgeist narrative that like, um, every, all these companies are going online and they need cybersecurity. Cooked. I bet you don't have many, like, I wonder how many people you have like that doubt that there's a job pathway, a legitimate career pathway into cyber. It's just whether or not you a lot of the time. It's whether or not it's like, can they— inner value, can they make the change? They believe the career— they don't have— you don't have to do a whole nother sale here getting them to believe there is a career path in tech out of value. From a career path perspective, it's just getting them to overcome their concern. And do they believe you can do it? I imagine that's like the two patterns you need to believe. So get them to have enough urgency to fucking get out of their fucking comfort zone. Yeah. They know the career path can take them there. It's, can you do that? Can you help them get educated and stuff like that? So a good problem, good objection finding, and a good pitch is probably the main thing, to be honest. That means that the ideal criteria, whatever fluff they want to do, probably doesn't really fucking hurt or hurt the sale that much. Yeah.
No, I appreciate that, bro. I don't want to take up too much more of your time. I think the only real issue was, um, at the moment, like, I'm, I'm going to fix it, fix it all because I've got a lot to implement and just scrap it and build from the start again. And I'll obviously like be in a spot where it's a lot more clear and just like flows. The main problem is like objection finding where I'm like, cool. And like, what have you done in the past to like get more flexibility? Like I'll usually lead it in like from rationale where it sort of makes sense where I'm just like, what have you done before?
And they're like, well, in my opinion, zoom out, get back to brass tacks and getting the skills to get where you want to go. I know you're kind of going at that, get more flexibility, I guess. I guess I get what you're saying. It's like, hey, you didn't have, it doesn't have flexibility either way. You can't, like, whatever your DIY is in rationale, it won't get you flexibility. Okay. So what are you doing to get the flexibility? Yeah. I like that you're weaving the question with custom language, but I typically just like to build a big fucking silo on those calls with Fez. The big psyop narrative is you get paid in proportion to the value of the skills that you have.
That's what I've started sort of implementing. It's just like the application of it. Yeah.
Yeah. It's just consistently siloing it at the back of rationale, why their job can't, whatever they say is why they're stuck. You say, oh, you try to tie it to that.
You don't have an, I remember that. Yeah.
Yeah. And then I object success metrics, whatever you get paid more because of the skills, objection finding. Okay. What have you been doing to get the skills so that you can get into a job that has the thing that your rationale DIY doesn't have and your problem doesn't have.
Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Yeah, because I started there and then you just try to work your way down to like, you know, um, what have you done to get this? And when you say skills, it's like, you know, uh, them researching isn't getting skills, it's looking for skills.
Yeah, okay, so it's like creating like the why didn't you do shit on that rather than like, hey, well, I just saw the ad and I just found out about it, or I just have—
yeah, it's like, okay, that's why we booked the call, but why do we do you want the help? If someone says to me, I just saw the ad, I go, okay, that's, that makes sense. That's why we sort of booked the call. That's how we got here. Why do you essentially want the help? Why are we on a call today about cyber and not about real estate? Yeah, you know, it's like, I want to make the career change. Okay, cool. Why is that? Oh, because your career is stuck now. All right. And yeah, it makes sense because ultimately you don't get paid enough because you don't have the skills, right? And they're like, yeah. I'm like, okay, cool. What have you been doing to get the skills? Yeah. And they're like, it looks dumb because it's so clear that the way out is skills. Yeah. And then objection finding, go down, dude, look at this document, I'll give it to you. It's so fucking polished.
Yeah, thanks.
Have I given this to you before?
I think so.
Yeah, yeah.
Because even what you said, like I've started saying to tradies too, they're just like that. I'm like, all right, cool. Yeah, because that makes sense, right? Because I mean, you could run a business and do it that way. But as you know, like you're still tied to your time rather than like cybersecurity. Like your income is directly tied to your skill set, right?
Okay.
And then you move on.
Yeah. And then you just want to start creating that silo. That's what Matt Ryder is just elite at.
Yeah.
Creating a narrative so that they see like all action is contingent upon where you— was it for the skills?
Yeah.
Like Navid had a guy yesterday where the guy goes, well, yeah, I was looking, but then I was running my— I was looking to make a career change, but then I got lost my job and I needed to get another one real quick. So I went off and got this other job. And then Navid was like, damn, he's made an attempt to like— because we get the skills to make the money to— and he— this guy made some money. But he said Navid worked out that it just paid the bills, this job he went to just to keep. And I said, yeah, you, but should he have stopped trying to get, like, was that job, did that job have the goals he wanted, which is freedom? He said, no. I'm like, okay, cool. So he shouldn't have stopped looking for the North Star job even when he got that salvage quick job. Yeah. You know, and I go, how long was he in that? Because Navid goes, well, he's in that job and then he only left that job 3 weeks, 2 weeks ago. So it was hard to find like like this delay. I'm like, bro, did that job he ran to, did that get him his freedom? No, it just paid the bills. Okay, that's not his goal, it's just minimum standard. That's one. How long was he in that job for? 3 years. Is that enough time to justify saying that he fucking delayed things? He's like, yeah. I'm like, okay, so if you had said like this, if you'd gone, okay, what have you done to get the skills? Where I was looking, but then I lost my job, so I had to get another one real quick.
Okay.
And did that, do you feel like that job, um, like was really ultimately has given you the freedom you're looking for? No. Okay, cool. With that in mind, what were you doing in that period whilst you got that job to continue to look for a job that can get you the, uh, the freedom you're looking for? Or nothing? Why is that?
I don't know.
I just was trying to, I was just trying to make ends meet. Yeah. I hear you. Okay. That makes sense. Or like, you know, are you essentially saying that we, because we got the job, we didn't continue to try to like stay on path to get to Success Metrics you mentioned? Yeah, okay, that makes sense. And why do you feel that is, that you didn't like go and get the skills if you knew it wasn't gonna get you the goal, the freedom? I don't know. Okay, with that said, what do you feel like you've left on the table by not staying on the path and just essentially settling for the job that you, you had, that job? What do you like on the table? If he goes, I don't understand, yeah, I don't know, usually they'll lay down. But if they don't, you go, okay, well, you've been in that, you were in that job 3 years, where would you have been if, say, 6 months into that job you had the skills to be in the tech space and have the freedom, where would you be if you'd been in this job 2 and a half years ago? I'd already be at this goal. Okay, so that's kind of what the opportunity cost, right? That's what we've left on the table.
Yeah.
And then the person sees it, and then what do you continue to lose? And it just gets them to shake them out of this, because I'm assuming whatever decision-making process you had to fucking go and get a quick money job and, and then seemingly just stop, give up on your goals, you're still going to have that at the end of this call. It's something that's there. That's the center of gravity. That'll be the reason why they don't buy.
Yeah.
Um, you know, that's where it goes. But like I said, if the person's been doing all the effort and they're really aware, then you, then you do it. You kind of— they should be not at the— if someone's making all this effort but not at their goal and you can't really smash them on mindset, you don't do it. But in that case, they've been making all this effort Mm-hmm. Why aren't they at their goal? It must be a mechanical issue. It's not— they're not getting— like, if they're trying to take all the action, you really can't find anything. Because if they learned a lot of stuff but didn't try to apply for jobs, then you're going to cook them on mindset for that. But if they've learned, tried, skills, everything, but they still haven't got the job, there's some kind of reason why it hasn't worked. Yeah, that's where you're going to bridge it to, like, what do you need now for it to work and then build a skill gap. Now there is a need for you and there's a bit of urgency on a skill gap. But for most part, there's going to be some kind of a deficiency. I can send over like a bunch of other call reviews of not just Navid. There's like 5 from the Fez reps. You can see it. It's all just reviews of objection finding, ideal criteria, shit like that.
But does that make sense? Yeah, it does, bro. I appreciate you going over time too. Yeah, I went through those calls just to try and go through them, see what they're doing because they're doing a lot differently and just to try and like almost not replicate the process, but just have the same sort of like way through.
Yeah, it's the same, the same pattern is that you've got to decide whether or not you're going to head into the 3 nails and know how to stay persistent. It's crazy. All the clients come to me. They're like, oh bro, he said this. What do you say when they say that? I'm like, you need to see the fucking syntax, the pattern. Like, like a lot of reps in objection finding, they get caught up in the content of the question. Like, I've never heard someone say that they took a quick side job. I'm like, bro, like, do I need to tell you that? Like, you don't need the scripting for like what to say when they say that. Like, is that at their goal? No. Okay, so you need to get past it. Like, get clear on it. Okay, did that get you to your goal? No. Okay, so it's basically a non-attempt in a way, because our standard here for me to help you, Darcy, if you're the prospect, my standard is that do you get to your goals? Anything in between, you could have done a marathon, you could have prayed 80 times a day, you could have got half a job. I respect that, but like, it's not the goal. So what have we done to get there? Like, where are we? We want to get to the stuck point, and there is one because you're not at your goal yet. So that's kind of like what you want to do. Just, you just need to make sure, as you'll see, is that you need to be— you can't— the key here, bro, is I think you're good at it because you're quite laid back. You can't come off very jarring and aggressive. Like, you see how much— how I explain it in this way of like relentlessness. Yeah, you can't come off that way on the call. It's got to seem collaborative.
Yeah.
Did you watch that full role play with me doing it?
Um, yeah, with, um, was that with Naveed?
I did with Jackson.
Uh, I don't think with Jackson. I watched the first— I, yeah, yeah, I watched the call review of Jackson. The one before that was with, uh, Naveed, and then the third one was like a role play. I sort of got through First two. I need to go through the other ones.
You can watch it for 5 minutes. This is what I gave to Zen during ramping. Yeah, we can watch this for a little bit because I, I had a reschedule just then, so you can watch this. You don't like listen to what I'm saying.
Yeah, I watched a different role call.
You guys should really consider making a change.
Um, just like the build-up of—
it just built up to a city.
Okay, cool.
You thought that way specifically?
Way specifically where, um, yeah, to the start, I've definitely been able to go like, you know, every, every 3 months if you're working there.
Yeah.
I mean, imagine you want to live on holiday, right? And that's what we— that's the success metrics. You can see me here, go from a success metrics, how I use it to set the expectation, his bar. And then go into objection finding and he gives me some bullshit. Jackson's really squirmy and I, and I get a, you know, reason of where you wanted to go. Like, when was the last time you did that? Yeah. So we're talking about how many holidays? Because for him, it's not just money. Like, not just how much you want to make, but how many times you want to travel.
Cool.
Uh, a long time, man. It was about 2, 2 years ago. Yeah.
Okay. And how, I guess, just so I can kind of understand how, I mean, imagine you want to live on holiday, right? And that's why we're here. But how, how much more would you want to travel you'd consider reasonable if you're working there?
Oh yeah, um, then if not 24/7, like definitely being able to go like, you know, every, every 3 months, so 4 times.
So 4 times a year, which is like 8 times in 2 years, and you've been, you've been once. Yep, I gotcha. And, uh, I guess like, how does that sit with you? How does that feel?
Yeah, I mean can't really travel much, man. So, um, yeah, I guess, I guess like specifically, like, how does it—
I guess how does it sit with you day to day when you are like in the bookstore? Like, how does that feel?
Yeah, um, yeah, man, like I'm just kind of sitting in the bookstore, um, just yeah, like doing the day to day. There's not a lot that I want to be able to— it's just the same thing.
The main thing, like I said before, I just want you to watch how I approach objection finding. How long have you felt that way specifically where you kind of feel like it's just Groundhog Day, kind of in the hamster wheel, wishing, sort of having the wanderlust, like wanting to travel? How long have you felt that way specifically? Okay. And I guess like what's, cause you know, we're here now, right? Like on this call today, I guess what, I guess what shifted for you recently? We're still in problems. This is actually still a problem. So it's like management roles that allow you to go, I guess Matt Ryder, the same level as whatever you Cool, cool. Prospect. We broke for a second to explain something. Okay. Yeah. Um, a higher hourly rate. That's rational. Things like make, like, uh, so that, you know, you can also travel. Like, how much, how many, how much do you want to make and how much do you want to travel?
Yeah, like to be able to travel that, um, you know, kind of once every like 3 months, like 4 to 6 times a year. Like being able to have, yeah, like I guess $80K is very, very solid.
Okay, what do you make now?
Yeah, at the moment it's about 40, so about half of that.
Okay, so you want to 2x your income, um, and you also want to do it remotely, or at least in a manner that, you know, for now as we understand it, uh, do it in a manner where you can take leave even if you were in an office. Yeah, that's all right. Okay, cool. So like before, you know, we had jumped on this call today, before me, you're out there actually looking for ways to, I guess, upgrade your skill set so that you could 2x your income and do it in a manner that allows you to travel? See how everything's tied in?
Yeah, it's just skill set. It's all about skill.
Skill set, but I said to 2x your income. I got that from Success Metrics. Mm-hmm. You need to create a logical stream of acceptances that if you want to get your goals, you need to 2x your income because that's what allows you to work half as much, make the same, and travel. Mm-hmm. To do that, you need to get the skills.
And what have you done about it?
The backwards ladder of logical stream of acceptances. So he goes in his mind, like Jeremy always used to say, if they don't get the skills, they don't get what they want. Like, that's that logical stream of acceptances. The way I do that literally is by going, okay, rationale tells me that you can't get exactly what you want no matter what right now. And I do that little psyop at the end of rationale and go, because of the skills, right? And they go, yeah. Okay, cool. Uh, what do you want to make if you had the skills so that you can get your goal? They're like, I want to 2x my income and work half as much. I'm like, okay, cool. So you basically want like 4x your hourly rate, really? Yeah. Okay. Well, what have you been doing to get the skills? Because it's the skills, right? To 2x your income. Because that's how you 2x your income, right? It's just skills. Yeah. What have you been doing to 2x your income to get the skills so that you can get the freedom you want? And that's my lead-in to objection finding. It's my first question. It's fully custom based on the goal, the constraint, and yeah, which is the constraint is like, that they don't have the freedom now, whatever it is. Yeah, yeah.
An opportunity within like ebooks, um, like kind of like food, fun stuff.
Um, yeah, now watch how collaborative I am. I'm not like a lot of these guys where they're like, oh, laminum. Yeah, cook this guy. Watch, I'm like, I'm like, I love edifying their attempts when they go. I heard, uh, one of the other reps I was— did the onboarding calls for, the guy said, I tried, uh, e-commerce or Amazon FBA? And he was like, oh yeah, see, that's a difficult one. Like, he immediately started shitting on it. I'm like, no, that's not your goal right now. Your goal as a rep is to go, oh, that works. Like, how did it go? And then they go, didn't work. And you find— that's what you want, why they failed. Not to shit on the business model, but he was too caught in the tactical, trying to unsell other offers and shit, looking for ways to, I guess, upgrade your skill set so that you could 2x your income and do it in a manner that allows you to travel.
Yeah, yeah. So I did try an opportunity within like ebooks, like kind of like food stuff. It was kind of in line with my role. Tried that, looked at a few other things and opportunities as well.
Okay. And with regards to the ebooks thing, like what type of results did you actually get with that as it pertains to you, like kind of 2x-ing your income? Like what type of results did you get financially?
Yeah, I, um, like I made like a couple like sales.
Again, the reason why is just because I want to make sure that we know that everything we do is to get the success metrics and not to just fucking say we tried it somewhere.
Yeah.
Um, no, I didn't.
So you shat on it already? What was kind of your strategy? Because that's like getting into the business model, right? Like what was your strategy for, you know, having the skills? Because obviously we get paid in proportion to, you know, the magnitude of our skills, right? Like I'm assuming you understand that, right? So like what were you doing to sort of get the skills so that you could like 2x your income through ebooks?
Yeah, so I had a, I had like a mentor and like a coach inside the ebook side of things. So I had, there was like a program that I was in.
Nice.
That I was trying.
Yep. Okay, and how long was that? How long did that go for?
Yeah, so I was working with them for, well I'm still technically enrolled, but I was working in it for about a year.
Oh wow.
Yeah, about, about a year, like where I was kind of like in a year-long mentorship.
Okay. And how much, like roughly, was that investment for that mentorship? Because that sounds like a while.
Yeah, like it would have been like, um, from here it was like $8 grand US.
Cool. So there, that was just a probe. If it was like $100, I would have cooked that, but it wasn't there. I don't, I don't mind. That's fine. It's fine. It didn't work. So I'm winning. I've already won. You're not at your goal. So it's, you're going to, something's going to be wrong. So it's like a fairly serious mentorship. Okay. What do you feel like ultimately at the end of it all held you back from actually, you know, going from like just 2 sales to generating that income that you were looking for?
Yeah.
I'll just say like the, it was just like a lot, like kind of in terms of the process, like the mentors itself, like The people, you know, got results for sure, but the mentorship, it was just very difficult though to be able to like, I just didn't jive with the mentorship and like, yeah, I was like, I'm like a little older as you can see.
Well, there's two pieces to that. Like, I guess, were there pe— you said there was people getting results. Were there people making the, the, like sort of the $80,000 or at least that what you were looking for?
No, not really.
Not really. And when did you, I guess, 30. When did you sort of, I guess, when did you identify that within that year you were in the coaching, when did you identify that there was no one quite making what you were looking to make?
Yeah, like, you know, I was very, you know, optimistic when I started, and then kind of like this 6 to 7 month mark is when that started to pick up.
Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, okay. And then from there you kind of identified it was potentially not going to get you there, and then the vibe with the coaches kind of compounded upon that. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Well, at that point, like, what did you do to, I guess, pivot if you identified it wasn't going to get you to your goals? Like, what did you do from that point? See what I did there?
Um, yeah, I didn't really do, um, like too much to look into things.
Um, that could be a problem for sure. And what, um, what holds you back from, I guess, pivoting and sort of staying on the straight and narrow path? So that you could get to the 80K a year?
Yeah, just, um, I don't know, I just felt like I just didn't have the time to be able to put into it like I was putting all of it into that and to look into another opportunity. Yeah.
Okay, and what's, if anything, what's changed now that would allow you to have more time?
Um, yeah, I've just gotten to a point where it doesn't make sense to stop putting time into that program and I'm just looking for like kind of new opportunities.
Okay, and you mentioned that when you couldn't do the program because of the job, and you're still in the job now, so what's changed now if you're still in the job that would allow you to pick up another program? Cooked. Fuck. I just abused him on the mic. That didn't make sense. Don't give me shitty objections that don't make sense. Okay, and you mentioned that when you couldn't do the program because of the job. And you're still in the job now. So what's changed now if you're still in the job that would allow you to pick up another program? Cooked. Fuck. Choked, cunt. That didn't make sense, your answer as well. I had to fix that. No human would say that, by the way.
Yeah, go ahead. Um, oh no, yeah, well, to be honest, man, it's just, um, yeah, I think I was just like burned by the previous opportunity and just felt disheartened, etc., etc.
I hear you, man. Okay. And ultimately, just so I understand, like, because we're on this call today, you know, you need specifically— they didn't have any clients getting to where you wanted to go. You invested a reasonable portion of money in there to not bring that into sort of liquid fruition. Like, you know, I guess what's your perspective on coaches? And I guess more specifically, do you believe that there is at least some coaches out there that do actually get their clients the results that they're looking for. And now I'm handling this. There was two concerns. One, his laziness, whatever it is. He gave up. We got that out clear. He's owned that now. That fucking bullshit, I didn't have the time thing, didn't make sense. That was his way of coping on giving up. We got past that. He gave up. He immediately gave up. The next one that I need to deal with is that he said he didn't have a vibe with the coaches. So I'm going to deal with that one right now. That's all I'm going to do. Case to $80,000 a year. Officially. Okay, well, if we— if I guess if we now use those two things, which he now has ownership for, he does believe there are coaches, yet he did and also give up. So now we have reached the stage which is the explicit ownership of the failure. Yeah, now I can do the three nails in the coffin. Yeah, awareness that there are coaches that get us there, right? What do you feel like you've lost by, despite knowing that there's coaches that can get you there, letting that sort of, that skepticism that you had over coaches and it's stopping you from getting back on the path to $80K a year. Like, what do you feel like you've lost by not getting those skills that you needed from a coach you could trust?
Yeah, just the time, experiences to be able to go away and travel, you know, like over the last like 3 to 4 years. Also just like kind of the same day-to-day day, just been stuck in the exact same day.
So there's the time piece, and the time would have passed regardless, but I hear you, like ultimately the experiences you would have had over the last year.
Yep, exactly, like all those things, like, et cetera.
Yep, that makes sense. Okay, and like, I guess if we sort of shift perspective forward, like what do you feel like you'll continue to, I guess, really leave on the table if we don't, you know, like actually do all that's required to get the right skills that will actually get you to $80K a year?
Yeah, just keep missing out on all of these things, you know, with like, like, friends, family.
So you feel like, okay, so you feel like it would like be the same as, oh, it has been. See that what I did there? I was like, oh, so you feel like it'd be the same as the past?
Now I understand when you say like, no shit's gonna change. Like that's, that it makes sense how to actually get there.
That's like the main thing I think every salesperson kind of gets what I'm doing there. But more what's the ninja shit? I'd led into the first nail summarizing everything that had happened. I didn't just finish him going, oh yeah, uh, I got lazy, um, yeah, I believe coaches can help people, and then I go, what have you lost by not getting it?
I was wondering how you transition into that.
Yeah, I, I weaved with everything so it sounded collaborative. It's like, oh, okay, so I guess considering now that we know that that wasn't ever going to get us to $80K, and we had skepticism over coaches after, which held us back, even though we knew that there are good coaches out there. I guess with that in mind, what have you lost? It stops them avoiding it or being, uh, acting confused. Once I get the answer, I go, okay, and I guess if we shift our perspective forward, what do you feel like you can leave on the table? That's the weave into the second now. Otherwise it sounds like this: Okay, what have you lost by not getting these skills? Mm-hmm. Okay. And what will you continue to lose if you don't get these skills?
Yeah. It's just, it's just like autistic and too hammerish and hard and jarring.
Whereas if I weave it all by going like lead into it, summarize it. So he answers, he answers. And then I go, what do you feel like you'll continue to leave on the table? And then when he answers, I act like I didn't know that was gonna be his answer. I go, oh, so you feel like it would be more like the past? And you'll go, yeah. So I go, then it makes the next question so naturally what you would say. Yeah. Okay.
So like, what shift do we actually need to make then?
Yeah. Yes. Like that. But I go, okay, if you feel like the, the future is gonna be more like the past, then, then what type of shift do you need to make moving forward? See, it's like, it's like, it's like the two, the two answers of the first two nails beget the third question.
Just keep missing out on all of these things, um, you know, with like, like friends, family.
Do you feel like— okay, so you feel like it would like be the same as it has been?
Yeah, the same, the same thing would just keep on happening in the future for like another 5 years in the future.
Okay, well, if that's the case and we have that clarity over sort of the past will be much the same as the future, what type of— I guess, what type of mindset shift do you need to have for yourself moving forward so that you ultimately can, you know, get hell or high water, get the skills so you do get to $80K a year, and then you do, man, like, you do do those traveling and you do do the 4 to 6 travels a year. Like, what type of shift you need to have moving forward?
Um, yeah, man.
And you see what I do with my questions because they're quite long-winded? I re-ask the blank question at the end so they don't forget the question.
Yeah, yeah, just prioritizing the time, like, definitely. But then also just into what? Yeah, just putting in the time into finding an opportunity so that, like, you know, obviously once, like, the opportunity is there, just being able to be in a position where I can just, um, not, not feel like, I guess, that, you know, not let the, the feeling of the previous experience, um, hold me back from, from moving forward.
Okay, cool. And why is that important specifically to I guess, have attention to, to, to not letting the past experience like hold you back? Like, why do you feel like that's such a critical part of the shift?
Yeah, because if I don't, then I would never be able to like continue to find an opportunity.
If I just go on—
I'll never be able to actually, you know, start something new and be stuck in the same.
Okay, that makes sense. And I guess there was like that other piece, right, where they didn't give you the skills you were looking for. That's why we were skeptical. Right? So I guess like with that in mind, let's just do this then just to see if really what we're doing here at the bootcamp would actually work for you. Let's say you, David and the team and I, we sort of sat down with you and, and really mapped out the perfect, I guess, game plan and program for you to actually get the right skills so that, you know, you actually can make an $80K a year income. Like what type of training and support do you really feel like you need this time around? To make sure you actually get there. Oh, yeah. So you have to custom again. Makes sense. Now, I do, I do, you can see it here before you go. This is a great example. I do do a little skill gap here, but the only, this is key for you too, the only relatable skill that you can reasonably sort of arbitrage on them, like you, you, you mogging them on JavaScript or whatever, they don't have anything. They're gonna be like, well, I don't know anything about that. Stupid. Like, of course, you know, I don't know that.
Yeah.
What they can be expected to know is how to interview and and have instruction in revenue.
Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do you want to do? Yeah.
Just, I'd say just really good one-on-one mentorship in relation to like, just specifically breaking everything down for me over the calls, being more available, like available, not too much, but then also just project-based learning, learning by building things rather than—
That makes sense.
So that's kind of like the vehicle, the vehicle of how we help. Type of thing, the support and the mentorship and the project-style education, right? And I guess specifically you mentioned you've been in the management job.
Watch this.
Like you've been in that job 4 years, right?
Yep.
And you said to me that you kind of just got that job. It was kind of given it, it's sort of given it to you and you've done a great job in it, but you were kind of just given the job, right? Yep. Is that right? Okay. So when it comes to like, you know, structuring your resume with I guess, the right layout and really conveying to a potential employer that you have the right skills, do you know how to put that together so that you're not kind of put on the bottom shelf and, you know, you don't get considered for the job roles that will make you $80K a year?
No.
No. Okay. And do you feel like, do you feel like if we were to sort of show you that, that would be an important piece of helping you have success?
Oh, 100%. Yeah. Okay, cool.
Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. And outside of that, what, you don't have any experience with the tech space? Is that right?
No, no, nothing.
So ultimately, ultimately you need the one-on-one to sort of give you the whole helping hand. And then as far as job, because you may have had the experience in the past, but as far as like resume building, interviewing skills and all that good stuff, the ultimately the full-on support there as well to make sure that you actually land the job. Is that right?
Correct. Exactly.
Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. I mean, it's interesting seeing people in similar circumstances, man. Like, cause we, this is an identity frame I do with super unsophisticated people as well. This is the last thing in Ideal Criteria. We actually like, it's the bridge into Future Pacing, uh, working with people who are sort of in the early stages of making a significant career change, right? Because sure, there's the, there's the skills piece as we've discussed, but there's also like, there's also a shift in mindset, right? As people really start tapping into a different perspective. You know, so you go from being in your— in our clients sort of go from being in a 9 to 5 and just, you know, maybe they have a boss above them and just following their sort of day-to-day, uh, and then they start to, you know, take a shift in mindset and transition out of that and really take their own career into their own hands. And what's most rewarding for me, Dave, and the team is seeing people do that. And then ultimately what happens is they have time for the things that matter most for them, and they've really taken their own life.
Oh shit, sorry, bro, I gotta, um You know, I need to jump on this, um, I need to jump on this call with, um, fucking— what's her name?
Yeah, you got everything you needed, bro. I was about to finish the roleplay. Does that give you a picture of everything now, bro?
That's super helpful. Yeah, it's a lot more clearer, bro. It's so much more fucking clearer.
So all that theory, I'd love to just get it in your head with theory, but you need to kind of see it. But I'll let you go. Just DM me if you want some documents or some shit.
Thank you, brother. Appreciate it. I'll chat to you soon.
