What Management Style Is Best To Run A Successful Business - CIFC Episode 135

Very transparent hierarchy structure where there's very clear, clear reporting. It's called like a work in progress, like a whip. So, like, for every task that I want done, I hand those down.

Right.

And I only hand them down to two people.

Right.

One is Marco, one is James.

Right.

Like one is money focused, one is ops focused. And then from there it's their job to disseminate not all, but some of those tasks down to the people.

Welcome back to Coffee is for closers. We're doing it again. It's Matt and Pat, your favorite team.

It's Matt. And it's Pat Roll the intro. Ex special forces sniper turned entrepreneur. I've scaled numerous businesses to eight figures. My name is Matt Ryder. This is my podcast and I'm telling you to put that coffee down, down, down.

Hey. So this week we're talking about different managerial styles. We just follow the trends in the comments. We just do what people tell us to do.

Yeah.

You manage some people.

I do. How many? I don't know. Well, I only manage like five.

Okay, so you manage the managers of managers.

Manage the managers that manage.

Mm, yeah.

Yeah. Which tends to be the way to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

Lots of. Who would have thought corporate had it right?

Yeah, it's. It's interesting to see how that pans out to be correct.

Yeah. It's so like, you know, no, we should have a. Everyone should. We should have a collaborative work environment where everyone says their piece and then nothing gets done.

What do you think happened? You know, the knights of the round table. Do you reckon that's just load of King Arthur gone?

Oh, you. Yeah, you do this.

The table may be round, however.

Yeah.

There's still ahead of the king. You will do what you're told.

Yeah.

This is to fake inclusion. Real inclusion. You bunch of.

Now get out there.

Yeah, but I mean, people need. There has to be a chief. There just has to be, you know, and that hierarchical structure, people thrive under it. And I think it's especially like when you're transitioning from a more sort of quote unquote collaborative into a more traditional hierarchy. I think it's a difficult transition.

Yeah.

Yeah. Or at least I've been told for the people who are currently in that transition, it's no different for me.

Okay.

You know.

Yeah.

But I think it's necessary because I think people work better when they're within their lane.

Yeah.

You know, and you've got people who are more creative and you've got people who are more like, you know, sort of day to day or like, you know, like, there's not that many people that, like that CEO role. That is a very particular type of person who can sort of take in all that information and then kind of chomp it up and then spit out what needs to be done. And I think, like, those, those people, there's a reason why there's that hierarchy there, because, like, they're good at that. Yeah, that's it.

Yeah.

I mean, if nothing more, I feel like, you know, hierarchical control, a chain of command, all that kind of stuff, it serves for accountability if nothing else.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? Even if everybody is good and nobody actually needs to be told what to do when something doesn't get done or when there's like a new task and it's got a, you know, who does this. Having some sort of chain of command allows for. To fall into a place. So I think that we've seen that. Like, I've seen that in businesses. I've seen it in, you know, in work groups, all kinds of things where people go, no, no, it's linear.

We're all.

We're all in this together. And then someone doesn't pull their weight. And that's. That's what.

Whose job is it to hammer them, like people have got to do? And that's the problem. People can hide behind structure, I think. So, like, what we've been adopting with the help of one of our sort of board members, is more traditional but very transparent hierarchy structure where there's very clear reporting. It's called a work in progress, like a wip. So for every task that I want done, I hand those down, and I only hand them down to two people. One is Marco, one is James, one is money focused, one is OPS focused. And then from there, it's their job to disseminate not all, but some of those tasks down to the people. Like, if I give, like, you know, my COO a task of, like, I need the budget redone for this, then he's going to toss that to the finance department and then work with them to make sure that it makes sense and then pass that back up to me for approval.

Yeah.

But, like, I don't want to have to do it. Like, I just, like, otherwise, I might as well just not have anybody.

Yeah.

You know, so. And then that's very clear. And then I have like, okay, what is the date in which this will be done? Okay. It'll be done in 17 days. Okay. And then I write that down in my Gantt chart.

Right.

Which is like my project management Chart James, like on James's sheet, this project, this timeline, and then every week I meet with him and I get an update on that. And so like, let's say it's a three month project. If I get told a week before it's due that it's not going to be on time, that person should be in trouble.

Okay.

Because like, you've had 11 meetings.

Yeah.

Come to me now.

Yeah.

So that should have been clear along the way if the timeline was unmeatable.

Whatever. Yeah.

Or if it's just like, you know, like I literally had this conversation, one of our guys the other week, like, oh, this isn't going to be done. I said, why not? Oh, because this isn't this. I was like, but this has been a four month project and you're telling me the week it's due. I was like, does that seem reasonable? Oh, well, there's this. I was like, okay, but did you know that last week, did you know the week before? Did you know the week before that for that? Yeah, it's like, well, then it will be done on that date, on that time. Oh, but I have to. I don't care. Like, that's like, if you told me three months ago that that's an unrealistic timeline, I would have gone, sweet, let's bump it. Yeah, you tell me four days before it's due. No, fuck. You work 22 hours a day until it's done because, like, you had all that time.

Mm.

Like, what are we.

Yeah, we're forecasting its completion. Other things rely on that. There's other things that people are working on to be ready to go when that comes in. Yeah, and I think that's one of the issues. I mean, that's one of the things, you see where there isn't a chain of command, like where it actually flows from ahead to people, to people, to people and be allocated down, down, down, is that sometimes things can get lost in. You know, very rarely does anything happen in isolation. So because your piece isn't complete means that other pieces who are the subsidiary pieces or the, you know, the joining supporting pieces are ready or you can't progress without that.

And they don't even need to necessarily know that because it's not relevant.

Yeah, that's right.

And then so, and, but the worry with that is that the managers outsource their entire job.

Yeah. Right.

So then what you do is you have random spot checks of the work in progress, reports of the people below the people that you're above.

Okay.

So if I Give you eight tasks, and I see that you've split four of them to her and four of them to him. I go, well, I just go, what else are you working on?

What have you achieved this week? Yes, Daddy.

Elon. Yeah.

That's such a response, you know, like, well, what else are you doing? And it's like, nothing. It's like, well, okay, we're gonna have a meeting tomorrow, and you're gonna give me all the projects that you're innovating and the initiatives that you're starting. Otherwise, I'll just not have you. And I'll tell them what to do, because that's really easy for me to do, and I can save that money. And if there's. If you're not driving the ball forward, then I don't need that role and I can just go to them.

How many managers do you think. Not here, but sort of generally, who.

Have.

You know, optimized themselves out of the job?

Well, tons of them.

Yeah.

Without realizing, I spoke to a person.

The other day who works for Accenture, which is like the largest management consulting firm on the planet. And they're. They're a finance department.

Right.

For one of their. Because they're, like, the world's biggest consultancy that, at $89 billion profit last year. Very, very, very large, I think, top five largest companies on the planet. And their finance department of one area had to reconcile 7,000 manual transactions every day.

Wow.

Right. And so they had 12 people working full time in Excel to manually do transactions. And one kid came in and goes, oh, I can just write a macro for that. And he Immediately, 12 people were no longer required.

Yeah.

They didn't tell management. Right. The manager of the department goes, let's not tell anybody that we've done this. Right. And they just said, okay. So they had every Transaction reconciled by 9:00am the day of.

Yeah, Right.

It was one hour for Excel, just Excel to run the macros. And it had a 100% accuracy because they had that much data. When you have that much data, when you've done something so many times, the rules are set within, like. Like, Excel starts to just know the rules. So if you have someone who knows what they're doing, he, like, they came to him with the project like, hey, I think I can outsourced. I think I can macro this. And like, within a week, they were like, yep, done. And then so. And this manager, because it was done so efficiently now, they didn't tell anyone that they were doing it like that. He just. They just thought he was Like a, like a wizard of a manager. So they then flew him around all the other departments around the world to do the same and all he did was go, now don't tell anybody, but we have a macro that just automates it. But if you tell anyone, everyone loses their job except me. Because I can just say that I was the one who got it developed and then I get promoted and yay, everyone's happy. Everyone just kept their fucking mouth shut. They're still going, I mean like, and this is like probably, I don't know, like it'd be at least 150 staff full time stuff in departments all around the world who are playing Call of Duty all day and. But the work's being done.

Pretending to be busy.

Pretending. Just flat out pretending.

Just carrying around a clipboard.

Yep.

Working. Walking with purpose.

Yeah, that's the code. That's what it is.

When people say, how are you? Oh, swamped, swamped at the moment. Can't talk, got to get back to work.

Reconciling reconciles.

Yeah.

Reconciliation.

Nobody's ever done data entry like I'm doing data entry.

Exactly. So like it's really funny, but I think there's a lot of that that goes on.

Yeah.

And you know, you probably, you can probably speak to it. Did you see much of that in the military as you kind of rose up? Just a ridiculous amount of hiding behind structure.

Well, I mean the thing is, you know, the army has a strict double handling policy. So that, that makes sure that everybody keeps it like keeps busy. Is that even if somebody else has done the work, you too must do the work or the work is sometimes done incorrectly so that it later can be done correctly by others.

Right.

That, that I've spent some time in police and military units all around the world.

Yeah.

And it seems to be a fairly well picked up, highly adopted policy of double handling as much as much work as possible.

It's like our friend would tell a story who went into customs.

Yeah.

Dan.

Yeah, yeah.

Went to work the customs. I mean that's, that's more of an institutional, like, I think that story is more about like bureaucracy and laziness and. But he, he essentially, he was working at customs and as an intelligence analyst and wanted to get some actionable intelligence to somebody who could use it before they saw it on the news. So went hard in the paint for a week.

Yeah.

Went hard in the paint, into work early, leaving late, trying to get the information that he knew because he had reliable sources vetted and sent to people who could action it and first of all, didn't achieve that by Friday afternoon.

How close, though?

Yeah.

And was counseled on rocking the boat and was told that he needed to, you know, realign himself within the organization. Went in the following week, didn't log into his work computer at all, took his personal laptop in and worked on a uni assignment. And at the end of the week was told, congratulations, you've done a great job. You've really like, you've fixed all the issues that we discussed last week. And he was like, I quit. I'm going back to the army. This isn't for me.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think on the topic of management, I think like, of managing people, I think is understanding first of all that like, the reason anybody is employed anywhere is to do the work that they're doing.

Right.

And I think that, that sometimes when you build the sort of family relationship and people get along and all that kind of stuff, it. That can get a little bit blurry, I think for some people. Yeah. And within big organizations there is places to hide like that. Like, you know, you see those really huge organizations like government departments, where people don't seem to have any discernible job.

Yeah.

And in my observation, that's gone two ways. First of all, they just continue quite happily doing that and pretend they're busy doing something and everybody assumes that they are.

Yeah.

Power to those people. There's plenty of, plenty of captains and warrant officers that you see doing that all throughout the army.

Walking with purpose.

Yeah, walking with purpose. Pretending that they're up to something, develop, you know, I'm developing relationships or, you know, disrupting.

Disruption.

Yeah, disrupting.

Right.

All the things. But where people, you know, who, who don't have the capacity to do that, you know, I think some people don't have the capacity to hide and do nothing, but they also are a piece of shit with no job. So they make up. And that's what we see, certainly see that in government departments, but I see a little bit of it in the, in the corporate world as well, who people just like create obstructionist policy to be seen to be doing something. And that can go two ways as well. That can end up in like, you brought yourself above the detection threshold and now you're fired because you, you're getting in the way of things. Or people like, oh my God, you're the best. You created all this new policy and.

And, and depending seven people underneath you to manage this new policy that didn't need to be there in the first place.

Yeah.

And it depends on how it's out rolled, Right? Like whether it appears like if you save a dollar, you know, it doesn't matter that you cost everybody below you at an hour a day and reduce their productivity. You're not accountable to that. Right?

Yeah.

So if the. The thing that you' up saving the company 1% in the way that it looks like you've organized that, never mind that it costs productivity and you know, Overall we're down 10%. But if it looks that way, then people are, you know, you're on the promotion and you get. Now you get to create more bullshit policies somewhere else.

I think one thing that we did particularly badly was not having clear and defined roles and job descriptions with like a unified purpose. So one thing that I've worked really hard on the last couple of weeks is to rewrite everyone's job description.

Okay.

So I've rewritten everyone read on titles as well. It's really funny, man. People tell you they don't care about title until you change their title.

Yeah, right.

I mean, I just don't care, like, whatever, as long as I'm. It's like, oh, but no, I'm actually a C something or other. No, you're not anymore. Like, I thought you didn't care.

Yeah.

What happened? Yeah, you know, but like, I get it. Significance and you know.

Yeah, of course.

Part of people's needs. You know what I mean? But yeah. So like, but unifying them under like a singular, like, we are going to be customer focused. So, like, you are the VP of operations. You are customer focused first and foremost. You need to make it easier for us to integrate and you need to make it a dream for our clients to interact with us. That's your core mandate. Like, so having a really clear, like, focus, you know, So I think we did that quite badly because. And like, you know, I felt bad about it for a while and then I did research and it was like the first things every single company fucks up is job descriptions and compensation.

Okay.

Like, you either grossly underpay or grossly overpay.

Okay?

That's the problem. If you gross the underpay, you end up with a bunch of shit bags.

Yeah.

If you grossly overpay, you end up with too many chiefs.

Mm.

And nothing gets done because everyone's delegating to everybody and nobody actually wants to do anything because everyone's kind of very creative, you know, so it's like, that's a problem. So you. And like the bonus structures will be too high or too low and like, we Overcompensated and had too many sort of. We just overcompensated. Right. So that was. But like it made me feel good because I went through like some of the, you know, like Vern Harnish is a really famous kind of business coach. Is a book called Scaling up. And it's like one of the few, like he's a business coach, but they actually worked as like there's only like 10 or 15 that are qualified by him and they all work as consultants to like super high growth companies.

Okay.

And they focus on like the economics of scale.

Okay.

That's what they do.

Yeah.

Like they were part of Atlassian. Yeah. So with Vern Harnish, like the very few people that are actually worked with one named Ken Miller. He was like a. Anyway, he's a good guy. He helped Atlassian.

Okay.

Which is Australia's like fastest growing company ever or some shit. And like I listened in on some of insights. It's all very interesting. So what he would do is go into companies and just do like a four hour, just tear everything to fucking pieces and then like simplify everything as much as possible. And that just help you understand like what are the things that are going to move the needle the fastest. And so after reading his book and watching a few interviews with him and stuff like that, he was like, you will always fuck up compensation. Every single company does it. It's inevitable. So like make sure all of your compensation plans are movable. Just have 6 or 12 month horizons on them. We'd like, this will change. We don't know if we've got this right, but this is a good first draft. We'll stick to it. Let's see how we go.

Yeah.

You know, and then they've all got to be done. I was being pushed to like do you know, monthly or quarterly kind of. But like then Kim is like on our board was like, no, everything will be after financial year.

Right.

Because that's how you know how much actual money you made.

Yeah, yeah.

What if you have three fantastic quarters and one fucking horrendous one and then that negates everything. It's like, well, you broke even. No one gets a bonus. You know, so it was pretty interesting. So been reworking all of that and I think that creating it seems like the, the clearer that we create everything and like the more in their lane they get and it's like this is your left and right of arc. This is who you report to, this is who reports to you. Go do your thing. That seems to Be the. The best way.

Corporate bonus structures have been interesting to me ever since I started, like, working in this space and talking to people about, you know, not just here, but sort of everywhere when I talk to people about bonus structures because, like, there's a lot of dog training is all about paying the dog.

Right.

And building motivation so they work harder and harder and harder for the same amount of work, for the same amount of pay.

Yeah.

And the corporate bonus structure thing, I think one of the biggest risks what I've seen from people. I had a long conversation with a friend of mine about this because he was really pissed off that he didn't get a bonus that he thought was due. And when it sort of come to understand it, it said the bonus that he was getting was almost always within his grasp. And then it only took one time that he. He probably technically didn't qualify for the bonus, but got it anyway. And then the next time because it was something outside of his control.

Right.

But then the next time when he really didn't meet the target and didn't get the bonus, instead of that being motivating like you would expect a missing a bonus to be, or it should be to push harder, work harder, go harder next time, it had the opposite effect. It was demotivating. And so like, one of the things that I see in those corporate bonus structures is if your bonus is too attainable, it's. It's wrong. I think that bonuses really actually need to be less frequent and bigger so that you really do have to. It's exceptional to get it. And, and you know, if it's a monthly bonus that people are on and like to just use basic numbers, if it were, you know, if it's a dollar extra they're going to get per month, you better off to. And they could get that every month, you're better off making it a $12 bonus and making it like so much harder that they can't. They really could only pull it off once a month. And that way sort of the dopamine cycle in the pursuit. So I think, like, you know, a lot of people don't really understand dopamine, how it works and that it. There's more really good info about that getting out to the public through that like Andrew Huberman podcast. I don't know if you ever check that out. But the way that it's like dopamine is not getting anything, in fact, that satiates dopamine. It's the pursuit of things. So by trying, constantly trying to go after something is what makes you happy and that's what actually drives you and sort of is motivation, is pursuit, not having. Yeah, you, You. You're relying on a whole nother set of brain chemicals when you have something to continue wanting it. That's a whole nother thing.

I think. I think I set a really good bonus at the seventh level. Not managerial level, but at the sales team level. Because they only hit it maybe once every three to four months.

Yeah.

When they do, it's big.

Yeah, it's.

It's good. Like, it adds. It adds a few thousand dollars to each person's pocket.

Yeah.

And it's in proportionality to who earned it.

Yeah.

Right.

So there's a bonus pool that they're entitled to, and it's, you know, anywhere from 25 to 35, 000amongst the team. And it's in proportionality to who sold the most.

Okay.

So like, and then one person sold 50 of everything. They'd get half that entire bonus.

Yeah.

But then as a. Does the team need to cooperate to get to that bonus level?

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

Like, they'll have to.

So that drives a bit of cohesion, you think? And that they, like, it would be impossible for one person to.

To do it all.

So you're looking at people then saying.

Like, it's a front end cash collected bonus. So they have to cash collect on new sales. Not recurring. No, nothing on new sales. A different amount every month.

Right.

And then only grows.

Right.

Like, it only grows. And it's in direct proportion to what I think we should do to hit the revenue goals. And like, they hit it once every three, maybe four months.

Yep.

They ask every month bonus. Like one month. They missed it by maybe a few hundred bucks. I was like, no. Oh, we're so close. I was like, yeah, you were. But you didn't hit it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And so like, that's what I mean. Exactly. That is like that. The sliding scale in that way, like, there has to be a line in the sand because a variable reinforcement schedule like that is binary. You get it or you do not.

Yeah.

And so you can't then be like, oh, you guys were so close. Here it is. Or, you know, like, here's a percentage of, you know, like, it's like it's either get it or you don't to have the effect without that.

Like, and the manager's like, oh, we should give them this. So close. I was like, no, no, they didn't hit it. Like, I don't think you understand. Like, it's a red Light green light system.

Yeah, that's it.

There's no yellow light. Like you're in there in or you're out. And if they hit it by $0.01 because what if they only hit it by 100 bucks?

Yeah.

Can I go? Well, you know, I think we should give them. Because you only hit it by 100. Well, that's not fair. Oh, isn't it? Why not? Because that's a two way street.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, hey, best case for me, they miss it by a buck. You know what I mean? Like in my pocket, that's the best case for me.

Yeah, yeah.

Like I want them all to get paid and I want them to hit it because I want them to hit those targets. Like that helps me, but. Yeah, they miss it by a buck. They miss it by a buck.

Yeah.

Like I'll triple check it if they miss it by a buck. Yeah, but you know, like, it's what.

Sort of like, who's the best manager you reckon you ever work for?

For.

Or have seen?

Oh, Griffa.

Yeah, I was gonna say the same.

Yeah, yeah.

By Country Mile.

Yeah, without a doubt.

Yeah. I worked under him.

Well, but even outside army.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Like that, that. I still use that his thing. There's three things that matter. Your job, your career, your family.

Yeah, that's it.

Like, that's a great management style. And like the ability to hammer people and not hold a grudge, I think is so important. Like his, his. The best managers, like, have no problem with conflict. And that man has no problem with conflict.

Yeah.

Whether it's physical, enjoys it. Yeah, yeah. So. But his conflict is fair. It's totally like, hey, you've done it. Doesn't matter whether he doesn't like you or likes you, you're treated the same.

Yeah.

Which is incredibly important. And everything's there and then, and then it's over. Whereas, like, you know, I had another manager that just punished me in short and infrequent sort of variable doses, you know, and it was like, I, like, it was terrible management. Like when I was in Snipers, like, because one of the, one of the Bravos didn't like me, like, just hated my guts. So I would get the worst. It'd be like, hey, you guys are over there in the Hilton. You guys are over there. Hey, Maddie, you're underneath the fucking toilet block in the rain. Yeah, I'd be like, hey, like, I get it, you don't like me. Like, can we just put that out there? Like, you just don't like, when you're giving me jobs, if you just tell me, hey, man, your jobs until I die.

Yeah.

I'll be like, yeah, cool, man.

Yeah.

Like, whatever. It is what it is.

Yeah, bring it on. Yeah.

I. I can. I can stand being in the rain. It's not going to kill me. But like, it was all those kind of things, and that's. Ultimately it was. I was like, well, this. I'm out.

Yeah.

And then they were like, you can't leave. You're doing. I was like, I can do whatever I want. I was like, I don't owe you anything, man. Because, like, I was like, I don't respect your management style. Yeah, it's bad.

Well, I mean, that's one of the things that is what people don't understand about pressure. Right. So when you. That's negative reinforcement. They're trying to get you to change your behavior. But the threat of negative reinforcement is that the behavior changes in a way that you didn't expect, and the pressure is still relieved. So, like, negative reinforcement is that I make you uncomfortable. And in the search of the relief of discomfort, you will. You will experiment with behaviors. And when the behavior that I want happens, I'll relieve the discomfort. That's. That's how it works.

Works. It doesn't matter what you do. If you just. Then you. You'll just figure out a different way to relieve it.

Yeah.

But.

Yeah, that's right. So if you find another way to relieve it, then I'm cooked. And it's like, oh, that's not the outcome that I wanted. And then you could be like, but you can't leave because you're turning off the pressure. It's like, ah, but I am. That's. That I got out from it.

Yeah. So what ended up happening? Like, I did everything I was told. I did it all to a decent standard. Didn't complain.

Yeah.

Did not complain once. They were like, hey, you're doing this. I was like, okay. Didn't. Just didn't, like, didn't. I was like, okay, I get what's happening. The only satisfaction that you want from this is for me to be a bitch about it. And that's the one thing that's never gonna happen.

Yeah.

So, like, I'll just keep copying it. And then from there, I just hit a point where I had five months leave saved up, and I had to give six months notice. And I said, hey, guys, if you don't stop this, I'm gonna discharge. Like, I'm sick of it. And I'd caught Them doing some things like, which I've told you about in the past, like, if this doesn't get fixed and I don't see appropriate punishment, like, I'm out. And they went, no, we don't. It's appropriate. I was like, then here is the discharge paperwork, pre filled out. I have five months leave. I'm out of here in 30 days. And they were like, oh, you can't do. I was like, I can and I will. Goodbye.

Yeah, it is decided.

Yeah, it is decided. Goodbye. Sign this paperwork. You have to.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that was, you know, that's the way that it had ended, which is unfortunate. But like, that is just. That was the poorest of management I've ever seen.

I feel, I feel like when people make someone shit jobs in, like, in a management style and not address it directly with them, it's a disgusting form of cowardice. Like, I've always thought that back, back when we first got in or when I first got in at the company we were in was if there was a weekend guard, I had it.

Yeah.

And I went to the CSM and I was like, hey, I can't help but notice, yeah. That I keep getting the weekend guards. And like, what is it? What is it? That is. Why is that happening? And what can I change? Because clearly I. I'm in the shit. And I don't understand why. The answer was like, oh, no, mate, no, that's not it. Like, it's just a shit sandwich and someone has to eat it.

And I'm like, but it can't always be me.

I was like, yeah, but I feel like I'm eating a lot of shit sandwiches. And like, I get it. If it was just a random weekend guard, like, I get it, but this is the fourth time in a row that there's been one available and I'm doing it. So what is it? And it was like, no, no, no, it's nothing, mate, it's nothing. And I was like, you're a fucking coward. Like, you won't even have this conversation with me.

Yeah. Which is crazy.

Yeah.

Because like, you're supposed to kill people for a living.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's a different form of courage. You know what I mean?

It really is.

Some people, like, I, I don't get me wrong, I hate those uncomfortable conversations. Like, I don't enjoy them. I'll have it, but I don't enjoy it in the slightest.

No, not at all. And I don't think anyone really does.

But like, oh, there's people that love that. People that lean into that.

Yeah.

But like, you know, it's, it's, it's funny because you know, those, those styles, they just, they ruin good people.

Yeah.

You know, and like, you can't, you can't manage people like long term that way because you just end up with a bunch of fuck bags at the top. You know, we're at that reunion here the other day and one of the boys, I can't remember his name but I was talking to him and they're all, sorry, everyone's a fucking sergeant now, right?

Yeah.

And so I'm like, hey, so how's working diggers, man? I'm like, yeah, like I get it. I go, I go. They're like all. Back when we were this and we were that, I was like, have you ever like. And I could be wrong, I said to Marco, have you ever stopped to think that we were probably the exact same? But you're just looking back on what we did with rose colored glasses and realistically we're probably like a different versions, but very similar to the people that you're now managing in terms of difficulty and all that kind of stuff. And he kind of looked, he went, nah. And there it is. Yeah, like that, that is, that is it.

Yeah.

And then it's like, you know, the CSMs above them were like, oh, I was a fucking sergeant. You know, and then so you give the sergeants a sandwich and then it's just an ever flowing of downhill because there's a lack of people going like, like now that I manage a lot of people, I look back and go, man, like, I owe some of those dudes apologies.

Yeah, yeah.

Not like for some of the instance that I've said because like my last six months or 12 months, like I was relatively low maintenance.

Yeah.

It's just, I'll do as my told, whatever. But like when I was on, like when I was off teams and stuff like that, when I was being done by Jace, like, I was a fucking nightmare to manage.

Yeah. Yeah.

Like, and because I can talk and I'm not afraid to kind of dish it out and I'm probably a little bit wittier than some of those guys. They just didn't know how to handle me.

Yeah.

And what they should have done, they should have pulled me aside and been like, you know, you can say these things, but if you do it in front of anyone, I'll hammer you. You know, like. But anyway. But I was, I was the problem. Yeah, for sure. But I remember I saw one of those dudes that treated me like shit at a party, like, maybe like a year later after I got out, he was like, oh, hey, man. I was like, hey, dude, we don't. This isn't a thing. I was like, you don't have any authority over me anymore. I don't give a fuck about who you are. And if you're on fire, I wouldn't piss on you. Told him flat out. And I go, so we're not doing this.

Yeah, yeah, like that.

And I remember I went, like one of the first longboat lunches that I went to, one of the officers was like, telling me to do something. I was like, are you. Are you telling me to do something? I was like, do you think you still have authority?

Yeah, Yeah.

I was like, that was just because you had things on your shoulders that I didn't have. But I don't have any of those things anymore.

So, yeah, actually, I'm your boss.

Yeah. Like, you go get me a beer. Like. Like, now it's just, biggest person wins.

Yeah.

Like. Like you're little. I'm big. It is what it is. So it's super interesting how some of that stuff carries over. But it like. Like, it took me, like, I was super bitter about some of that stuff for a long time.

Yeah.

But I look back on it and I go, yeah, I was probably quite difficult to manage.

Yeah.

And I. And I probably owe some of those dudes. If I ever see them again, I'll 100% go, hey, man, like, forward. Just seeing how some of that stuff carries over. But it like, like, it took me, like, I was super bitter about some of that stuff for a long time.

Yeah.

But I look back on it and I go, yeah, I was probably quite difficult to manage.

Yeah.

And I. And I probably owe some of those dudes. If I ever see them again, I'll 100 go, hey, man, like, full respect. I was difficult to manage. And yeah, I. I appreciate your patience.

Well, I've said it for a long time, man. I. I think that the army takes a lot of credit for training leaders, when, in fact, that actually attracts them. So, like, I've done a bunch of leadership courses in the army, and they're all a fucking joke. And. And I personally, like, I hope we don't sell any leadership coaching because I think that it's all a load of. I think that it is. I think that if you're a really good leader, you can become a better one. But I don't think you can go from bad to even. Even good. I don't think you can do that? Because I feel like that it's a trait of who you are. And, and you know, you can't have too many, like nature doesn't make too many people capable of actually leading people because otherwise it'd be a big issue. It's like when you look at say in dogs, like actually truly dominant dogs, a lot of people will say that their dogs, whatever, but the, the, the amount of them that are built is, is minuscule because otherwise dogs will be fighting all the time. And it's the same with people. You can't have that many people that have really high level leadership and management skills because otherwise no one would do the work.

Yeah.

And so I think it, it's like, and I enjoy, I'm not saying I'm a great leader, but I enjoy it. I enjoy managing people. I enjoy finding out what motivates people and moving them towards that. But we're keeping them like task focused. Right. Like headed towards a particular thing. But I think the trickiness, the hard part in motivating and managing anybody is keeping them self motivated. Right. So that you don't have to be pushing them all of the time.

Yeah.

But then also providing a left and right of arcs where that, that motivation stays pointed in a particular direction rather than just sort of spews out everywhere and they start going into lanes that are not their own.

Yeah. I think that's one thing you really can learn.

Yeah.

Is that like how to keep people pointed. Because I think one thing that I did really well is I'm good at rallying the troops, like in getting people behind me just for whatever reason. I don't know what it is, but people seem to go, oh yeah, like, I mean, you can be at the front. Yeah, thanks man. Like, but I've been really bad at keeping them targeted in a direction because my brain doesn't really do that naturally. I'm very like add like, like that. And so if, if I let everyone into and I let them see behind that, it gets very chaotic for them and they don't know where to focus. And that's what I've been working on with Kim is like, so my development has been how do I be a CEO? Because being a leader is quite natural for me, but being a manager is not. So I've got to figure out like, I'm figuring out, like, I'm good at leading and just kind of like everyone get behind me and we'll go do it. But that's leading from the front and leading from the back. Is really different. And so I've got to learn how to lead from the back because, like, I can just go and fucking kick doors in all day. Like, that's fine. Like, I enjoy doing that. And, like, if you look at how, like, say, Ryan Sirhant leads, that dude leads from the front forever. But my business model doesn't allow for that. I can't. I can't just stay on the phones.

Yeah. So, yeah, I was gonna say for you, that looks like having the biggest sales numbers and. And constantly doing calls and showing people what you're doing in that regard.

And he told me, if you want to grow this thing, that's what you have to do.

And I was like, I. Ryan said that?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I had him on the podcast. We can link it up here. But, yeah. And, like. And I think. And I get it now, for him, that's what makes sense. Because, like, if you look at, like, Umansky, Mauricio Mansky, who owns the agency, which is another, like, probably one of the most successful real estate brokerages and, like, in the world.

Okay.

Like, he is the top salesperson, right? He is.

Yeah.

He's a fucking Savage. Sells, like, $100 million house a week.

Yeah.

Right. And. But, like, for that model, it sort of works.

Yeah.

You know, but maybe requirement.

Yeah, I think. I think it is. Like, he kind of has to be the big swinging dick, and then, like, when he steps away from that, like, then, you know, he'll have to become sort of something else. Like, I don't know, you know? But. Yeah, so Ryan was very adamant about that. But, like, I can't stay on the phone selling $20,000 programs. Like, it doesn't make sense. There's not enough commission in it.

Yeah.

It's not the right use of your time.

Yeah.

And that's why I think in real estate it is, though, right, because you're huge. You're pulling the big deals. You're the frontman deals. It needs to be you that's there doing it, shaking hands, getting the photo. And then it's worthwhile because we're talking millions of dollars in commission per sale.

Yeah. And Ryan will close the building, and then he'll have his agents close the apartments.

Right.

But he's got to close the building, which is what I do, essentially. I close. I close the accounts, and then we put reps in to do that. But, like, there's not, like, a value that I can put on that immediately.

Yeah.

I take 20 grand off him as a joining fee or something. Like. Yeah. It's like, what am I going to.

Yeah.

You know, kind of post that's super interesting.

So you are doing the exact same thing as him, really. You're acquiring the client at the big picture and bringing them into the company. Only normally there's a big sale there and for us it's just you're in and away.

Yeah.

And then it all has to go, you know, so there's not like a thing that I can point to and go, well, look what I did, you know, So I kind of have to play it differently. I have to do similar, but play differently because like, like, you know, for example, like, he's still. He's. Maybe I should be. Maybe I should be closing three or four hundred thousand dollars consulting deals. Like, but like, I'm not right now. I have done. But you know, he's closing the biggest apartments, like, so he'll take the penthouse and then everyone else sells the other stuff, you know, so that's kind of how he operates. And he's very good at it. And that's what he. Mansky does as well. Yeah, it's a little bit of a different model. Similar, but different.

Yeah, yeah.

Just not as lucrative, to be honest. I mean, they're way richer than I am.

Yeah.

You know what's interesting as well, I think from leadership terms is accountability for the people that work under you and how much people take in that regards. And I don't know that there's a right and wrong about that. I think that, you know, like you. If you could be. If you were checking everybody that worked for you work, then what's the point in having them? You know what I mean? Like, at some point they have to be able to do those things and make mistakes of their own.

So we're using whips, which is a work in progress report. So essentially the way that it works is I have a Gantt chart, which is a type of project management. Right. I don't know what it stands for. I don't fucking know. Right. But essentially, like you have project, like, and then you have like build date, launch date. Right. So you have. So it's like, this is when it's being. Starting to be built. This is when it launches, when it's finalized. So you have those three dates and you just sit there and you go, okay, cool. Where are we at? Where we at? Where we at? Are we on track? Off track? And then from there like they under. I have the project heading, but then they should have their own that has the project heading in all the subtasks I don't care about the subtasks. I just care about the heading, where we're at with it. So I have all theirs, and I have my own projects as well that I'm working on. And then so every single week, as of, like, honestly, this week, I get together with them and I say, these are the projects. Where are you at with them? Okay, those are what I've given you. What are you working on yourself? And then I'll put those projects into there. And then I might add a project, as long as other ones are being ticked off. Like, I did it with Marco this morning. Some of his stuff was due in fucking February. Finished it.

Yeah, right.

You know, he's like, yep, done, done, done, done, done, done. You know, like, everything was like, he knew everything. He had all the progress reports. He had done everything, asked.

Mm.

And then he had updates on everything that I needed. And then he told me what he was doing outside of that. And then I said, like, okay, cool. Show me your. Show me Anthony's whips to you.

Yeah, Right.

This is a spot check. I won't ask that every time, but I'll go. Show me. And it's like, sweet. This is what Anthony's doing. This is what he's working on. This is a summary. This is what I've got him doing. Perfect. Because it shouldn't be a one for one of what I've asked him to do, because if that's the case, then I don't need to ask Marco to do it. I could just ask Anthony.

Yeah, but say you have a sales rep that makes a mistake, right. And does something they shouldn't do. They report to Anthony, Anthony reports to Marco, Marco reports to you. That's pretty much the sort of progression. So if they make a mistake, the individual sales rep, at what point do you then, like, where does the responsibility for that mistake finish, do you think?

Yeah, that's difficult. I think it would.

That. That.

That is what I mean, that. That's really difficult.

I think it would depend on what the mistake was. So if it's a malicious mistake, then I don't think you can really blame anybody for someone trying to.

Like we said something on purpose.

Yeah, exactly. But if it's a procedural mistake, then like that there. So you have responsibilities and accountabilities. So the way that the hierarchy works is that mistake.

Right.

And.

And does something they shouldn't do. They. They report to Anthony, Anthony reports to Marco, Marco reports to you. That's pretty much the sort of progression. So if they Make a mistake. The individual sales rep. At what point do you then like where does the responsibility for that mistake finish, do you think?

Yeah, that's difficult. I think it would.

That that is what I mean.

Like Anthony is responsible for the performance of all of our accounts, but Marco is ultimately accountable for it.

Okay.

So like if the accounts are not performing, I'm not going to yell at Anthony, yell at Marco because Marco is accountable for it. But it's his job to hold.

That's really difficult.

I think it would depend on what the mistake was. So if it's a malicious mistake, Anthony responsible for doing everything he's supposed to do. So it's just a chain of screaming then. I don't think you can really blame anybody for someone trying to like do something on purpose.

Right? Yeah.

You know like that's sort of how it rolls. So like. But if it was like if, if we did like an after action review on it and showed that the procipus. Yeah, exactly. But if it's a procedural mistake then so you have responsibilities and accountabilities. So the way that the hierarchy works is that the operational processes were shit. Then it's like, oh, we need to go over here and start getting into why that was even possible.

Yeah.

You know, so what we would look at is the accountability and responsibility charts. And then whoever is ultimately accountable for that is the first person who's in trouble.

And then you, you then intend to then leave it to them and they, they trickle that downhill or would you pursue it down the hill?

Like, like Anthony is responsible for the performance of all of our accounts but Marco is ultimately accountable for it.

Okay.

If someone has to hop on a meeting with me, they're probably going to be fired or promoted.

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Either one. 50, 50. You never know.

Whatever I decided. So like if their accounts are not performing, I'm not going to yell at Anthony, I'm yell at Marco because Marco is accountable for it. But it's his job to hold to the odd two faced at that. Yeah, but that's how it kind of should be.

Yeah. Yeah.

So like if like the same with like, like like team meetings, like I really shouldn't be on many of those because like otherwise you just end up where like people just ask you questions and it's like, it's not like sort of stifles innovation because people don't want to sort of Anthony responsible for doing everything he's supposed to do. So it's just the chain of screaming, right?

Yeah.

You know like that's sort of how it rolls. So like. But if people don't want to be seen to be wrong in front of the boss. So then they just don't put if it was like if, if we did like an after action review on it and showed that the pros their hand up and they don't say stuff and it just sort of stifles everything. So it's like, you know, the CEO I used to misses the operational processes were shit. Then it's like oh, we need to go over here and make fun of my father in law. He was the md, which is the CEO. Right. Of the bank of New York Southern hemisphere division. And I would see him in a Park at 2 o' clock in the afternoon reading the paper. I was like what are you doing? He's like what are you doing? I was like, he's like I'm reading the paper. It's like why aren't you working? He's like I am working. You know. And like I was always like oh look at this fucking dude in his ivory tower not doing shit. But that was start getting into why that was even possible.

Yeah.

You know, so what we would look at is the accountability and responsibility charts and then whoever is ultimately accountable for that is the first person who's in trouble.

And then you, you then intend to then leave it to them.

And that's his way of processing all the things that were happening and ultimately he had to sign off on them.

Yeah.

And then he would have to fly to New York every couple of months. And he was accountable to the.

They trickle that downhill or would you pursue it down the hill?

Like board of directors who would roast him. Like aggressive roasting.

Yeah.

And screaming if he didn't hit KPIs.

Right.

You know. So he was ultimately responsible for the investment strategy of the southern hemisphere of the oldest financial banking institution on the planet. You know, so it's like that's a pretty significant weight. And so everything that he signs has to be serious. If someone has to hop on a meeting with me, they're probably going to be fired or promoted.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Either one. Fifty. Fifty. You never know. Whatever.

I decided today. Seriously considered.

Yeah.

And I was talking to him about it recently and I was like it's to the odd two faced at that. Yeah. But that's how it kind of should be.

Yeah.

It's, it's. People are liking me less. And he was like welcome to the job, buddy.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and I was like. He was like, man, unfortunately dude, it's just when you're the one who has to make the ultimate decision.

Yeah.

So like if like the same with like, like, like team meetings, like I really shouldn't be on your ultimately accountable because I'm ultimately accountable. Right. In my job description. I am accountable for the revenue, the profit and the like hitting of all projects. That's it.

Yeah.

I have like three things, but it's everything.

Yeah.

So like, and the way that I've laid it out is like I am the boss and then the board has an opportunity to tear me to pieces.

Okay.

And the board is here, it's James, Marco and Kim. Right. So it's like many of those because like otherwise you just end up where like people just ask you questions and it's like, it's not like sort of stifles innovation because people don't want to sort of. But day to day, like I tell James what to do. I'm his boss. There's no fucking collaboration. There's no. People don't want to be seen to be wrong in front of the boss. So then they just don't put business partnership here. I am the boss. Right. And, but at the board, dude, I'm responsible for this. If it's not there, tear it to pieces.

Yeah, okay.

And then. But I'm also like, like in the stick hand up and they don't say stuff and it just sort of stifles everything. So it's like, you know the CEO I used to mates being the CEO of 7th is a very, very big weight because the CEO signs off on all documentation and I'm the one who will go to prison if it's wrong.

Right.

Make fun of my father in law. He is the MD which is the CEO of the bank of New York, Southern hemisphere. So in the States it's a much bigger burden. Like here you're protected a little bit more. Because I would see him in a Park at 2 o' clock in the afternoon reading the paper. He's just protected more over here from a fuck up. They won't point the finger at the sea. I was like, what are you doing? He's like, what are you doing? He's like, I'm reading the paper. Why aren't you working? He's like, I haven't worked young, it's you. They'll sort of point at the company, but that's not how it works over there. So like when we, when we've, you know. And like I was always like, oh this doing this ivory tower, not doing. But that was finalized and we changed over to like the new corporate system that we have over there being a C corp and that kind of stuff. I said, all right, guys, like everything. If you up, I'm gonna rail you like. Because if you up when it comes to finance or tax or like compliance, like that's his way of processing all the things that were happening. And ultimately he had to sign off on them.

Yeah.

And then he would have to fly to New York every couple of months and he was accountable to the board of directors. He would fucking roast him. Like aggressive roasting.

Yeah.

And I had. And I will destroy you. There's not, we're not going to be friends here. We're. We're going to do the work, but if you screw up, like you're in serious trouble.

Yeah.

Right. So you're, you're like ultimately liable.

Screaming if he didn't hit KPIs.

Right.

You know, so he was ultimately responsible for the investments.

Not just accountable liable, but liable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

And for like a high growth company that will 100% be audited.

Yeah.

At some stage. Because the moment you get on those sort of high growth chart things, Strategy of the southern hemisphere of the oldest financial banking institution on the planet. Oh, the IRS just goes, I wonder what the 5,000 companies working on this year is.

Yeah.

Thank you. 5,000. You know, so it's like that's a pretty significant weight. And so everything that he signs has to be seriously considered.

Yeah.

And I was talking to him about it recently and I was like, it doesn't looks like we've got our trick. You know, they just hired 87,000 new orders.

Yeah. So that. Yeah.

Right. So like, we'll definitely get audited. And so it's my responsibility because it's. People are liking me less. And he was like, welcome to the job, buddy.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because we don't have a cfo, so I sign off on all that too.

Right.

So like it's the different structure which is like brought on new weight, I suppose, and sort of has been like the lead in, you know, And I was like. He was like, man, unfortunately, dude, it's just when you're the one who has to make the ultimate decision, you're ultimately accountable. Because I'm ultimately accountable. Right. In my job description, I am accountable for a new management style which is far more like, no, no, no, this is not a game.

Yeah.

Not friends. This is for the revenue, the profit and the like hitting of all projects. We have to get this stuff done.

Yeah.

Because now there's serious money Involved lots of people and like liabilities that I have no interest in being.

So let me play devil's advocate to your.

That's it.

Yeah.

I have like three things, but it's everything.

Yeah.

So like and, or your, your Gantt thing, do you think that it potentially like giving such rigid left and right of arc. What are the risks that you then close people in and sort of stifle innovation a little bit?

Part of the job description to innovate.

Okay.

The way that I've laid it out is like I am the boss and then the board has an opportunity to tear me to pieces.

Okay.

And the board is here, it's James, Marco and Kim. Right. So it's like.

Right.

So it's written into their job role.

Right.

So you need to be able to come to me. So every two weeks, but day to day, like I tell James what to do. I'm his boss. There's no collaboration, there's no business partnership here. I am the boss. Right. And, but at the board, fucking dude. I'm responsible. So this is my new management structure. Every two weeks there's a creative strategy session.

Okay.

So where like each department head will have an opportunity to present innovative strategies that they want to introduce. Then from there I'll take them all on board, I'll get rid of like 92% of them. The ones that I think have legs, I'll say create a project plan there for this. If it's not there, tear into pieces.

Yeah. Okay.

And then. But I'm also like, like in the States, being the CEO of seventh is a very, very big weight because the CEO signs off on all documentation and I'm the one who will go to prison if it's wrong.

Right.

To create a project plan and then send it back to me for approval.

Okay, cool.

So in order to avoid.

Right. So in the States it's a much bigger burden. Like here you're protected a little bit.

More because stifling innovation, it's part of their job and it's something that they then have to allocate time and resources to each week. And you, you're okay with that, knowing that much of it will be fruitless?

Yeah.

When you force innovation, you sometimes you're going to get some awesome ideas, but then other times you're just going to get.

No, you just protected more over here from like a fuck up. Like they won't sort of point the finger at the CEO and God's you, they'll sort of point at the company. But that's not how it works over there. So like when we, when we finalized and we changed over to like the new corporate system that we have over there being C Corp and that kind of stuff, I said, all right, like.

We should write, write notes on bricks and throwing through windows.

Yeah.

It's like, all right, you know, like I did something.

I came up with an idea. Yeah.

So we just have, you know, and if they haven't got anything or whatever, it's like just hearing all the other ones, you know, Because Marco will have 40 of them.

Yeah.

You know, so it's just the way that he works. So that will help. And then the other thing that I'm brought in is a weekly airing of the grievances. Like everything. If you up, I'm gonna rail you so. Which is designed to elicit conflict, but in a more positive like because if you up when it comes to finance or tax or like compliance, like that's my tone. So I'll run it. There is no rebuttals.

Okay.

Right. Like each department will have, I think like, like 10 minutes or whatever it is. And they have to stick to a rigid structure. And I'll run it. So I'll go, pat, what is Marco, my head. And I'll destroy you. And so there's not, we're not going to be friends here. We're going to do the work. But if you screw up, like you're in serious trouble.

Yeah. Right.

So you're, you're like ultimately liable.

Not doing to make your life better or make your life worse.

Really. You gotta keep it that rigidly direct, just accountable. Liable, but liable.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's interesting.

And for like a high growth company that will one day it's not going.

To be a free like Pat, what's up with you?

No, no. And then I'll go, okay, what's James doing? What's Tori doing? Okay, what's Ben doing? So you, you say, yes, Ben has like not given the warnings that I need 100% to be audited.

Yeah.

At some stage. Because the moment you get on those sort of high growth chart, things needed to give to the people and he hasn't finalized the hiring of this person. And that is a frustration because I go, the IRS just goes, I wonder what the 5,000 companies working on this year is. Thank you. Being 5,000, looks like we've got our trick. Yeah.

Yeah.

They just hired 87,000 new orders.

Yeah.

So that have a deadline of this time that I don't know they're going to be able to meet. Because this Isn't done. Okay, perfect. Write it all down. Ben goes, and I don't know, this isn't up for debate. This is what's happening. And then we go around the room.

At least this is how he. How Pat perceives it.

Yeah.

Right. So, like, we'll definitely get audited. And so it's my responsibility because we don't have a cfo, so I sign off on all that too.

Right.

So, like, it's the difference. And then it's like. And then Ben, he's a opportunity. And he goes, well, as for the last. I've asked for the job description six times and it hasn't been done. Oh, perfect. Looks like you just should get together after this and sort that out.

Yeah.

But it's like no one's intentionally fucking anyone around.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's what I think people don't understand. It's like, you know, there was an issue with two staff in here. I won't say structure, which is like, brought on new weight, I suppose, and sort of has been like the lead in for a new management style, which is far more like, no, no, no, this is not a game.

Yeah.

Not friends. This is. We have to get this stuff done.

Yep.

Because now there's serious money involved. Lots of people. And like, they are the other week and one person said, this person's doing this. And I was like, have you told them liabilities that I have no interest in being?

So let me play devil's advocate to your.

They went, nope. I was like, then how are they going to fix it? So I went, wait, come here into the room. I was like, this person has this issue with you.

Carry on.

What are you going to do?

Yeah.

And I was like, is it. Is it. Is it reality or is it perception or your.

Your Gantt thing? Do you think that it.

What are we. What is it? Because I. Because then I'd also been told this same thing by a different person.

So potentially, like giving such rigid left and right of arc. What are the risks?

That obviously this is what's happening. So let's just nip this in the butt right now. And most time it's like, oh, sorry, you know, that was a problem.

Yeah.

You know, and like, I think people think that those. Those are going to end badly with people, but really, 90 times of the time it's gonna end with like, oh, shit, man. I didn't realize.

Yeah.

You know, because.

No, you then close people in and sort of stifle innovation a little bit.

Part of the job. Description to innovate.

Okay, right.

So it's written into their job role.

Right.

So you need to be able to come to me. So every two weeks, one is intentionally. Anybody around? No, no, we're all on the same team.

Yeah, yeah.

So it's like, it's just. But if people aren't going to tell people when they're not doing. When they're doing something that's hindering their job or not getting things done fast enough or whatever, then it's like, how is anyone supposed to fix anything? And so, and I think one of the problems is that everyone here has like a close personal relationship. This is my new management structure. Every two weeks there's a creative strategy session. Okay, so where like each department head will have an opportunity to present innovative strategies that they want to introduce. Then from there I'll take them all on board. I'll get rid of like fucking 92% of them. The ones that I think have legs, I'll say create a project plan. And so it's like we have to kind of leave that at the door and you have to be able to go, hey, man, like, I need this done. Like, this, this has to be done.

Yeah.

And I think as well, like, in vain with that is sort of delineating between excuses and reasons like, like, yeah, sometimes there's a good reason why something can't be done and it's because, like, hey, you don't understand everything that we're doing. Say, like just in, in my area in creative department, that there's, there's a lot of different people to service. And so when someone's to create a.

Project plan and then send it back to me for approval.

Okay, cool.

So in order to avoid stifling innovation, it's part of their job and it's something that they then have to allocate time and resources to each week. And you, you're okay with that? Knowing that much of it will be fruitless. That when you say I need this, it's like, yeah, but like, and everybody, what they want is important to them and therefore is a rush.

Right.

And they need it fast. And that's like, that's fine. But we also have these other things and you can jump the queue, like if, if there's a good reason to jump the queue, otherwise you force innovation.

You.

Sometimes you're going to get some awesome ideas, but then other times you're just going to get. You're just in the queue. And the good reason, like, I need to weigh that against all my other things. And you can't know everything that I'm working on as a requester of something. You can't know it. And I think it's just having the balls to actually have those sorts of conversations.

You're pretty good at that. Like with Marco, for example. Marco gives a ridiculous request like, I need video Facebook.

We should write. Write notes on bricks and throw them through windows.

Yeah.

It's like, all right, mate.

You know what I mean?

Like, I did something.

I came up with an idea. Yeah.

So we just have, you know, and if they haven't got anything or whatever, it's like just hearing all the other ones, you know, Because Marco will have 40 of them.

Yeah.

You know, so it's just the way that he works with that. What a. Like, that makes no sense.

Yeah, yeah.

And you go, that makes no sense.

Yeah.

But everyone goes for help. And then the other thing that I'm brought in is a weekly airing of the grievances. Okay. And then has a three hour meeting to try and decipher what.

And what a waste of time when he can just say, hey, what do you mean by that, man? Where's that going? When exactly do you need it by? Okay, cool, got it.

Yeah.

Rather than like, and it's done.

Yeah.

You know, and like, that creates a cadence of like, so. Which is designed to elicit conflict, but in a more positive. Yeah, I'll do what you need, but you got to give me the information. Yeah, but I'm going to tell you the information I need sometimes, Tone. So I'll run it. There is no rebuttals.

Okay.

Right. Like each department will have, I think, like, like 10 minutes or whatever it is. And they have to stick to a rigid structure. Those people, like, they just.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think you sort of hit the nail on the head a little bit when you say that. Like, nobody is ever. I think, I mean, of course there's.

Dickheads and, And I'll run it. So I'll go, pat, what is Marco?

Workplaces. Right. But there's very, very rarely, if ever are people intentionally working at cross purposes. It's usually just because, like everybody in their individual section people are highly motivated. They're doing.

To make your life better or make your life worse.

Really. You gotta keep it that rigidly directed. It's not going to be a free, like, Pat, what's up with you?

No, no.

And then I'll go, okay.

Want to be successful. And they, they, they are accountable to what they're accountable to. And if you're a supporting asset of that they bring you under their baske, it's like, yes, but I'm the supporting asset to many other things. And the same people are asking the same things. And so I need you to be honest with.

What's James doing? What's Tori doing? Okay, what's Ben doing? So you. You say, yes, Ben has, like, not given the warnings that I needed to give to the people. And he hasn't finalized the hiring of this person. And that is a frustration because I have a deadline of this time that I don't know they're going to be able to meet because this is done.

Okay, perfect.

Write it all down. Ben goes, oh, no, no, this isn't.

Do you need this by. That's the big one. Like, when actually do you need this? Because we'll have it ready. But if you say you need it for Tuesday and I find out you didn't need it until the following week, that's why you go to the back of the line.

Yeah.

Why everything. Why are you hooking me around on purpose?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that that's the key. And so what I'm trying to do is develop a culture of, like, just speak for debate. This is what's happening. And then we go around the room.

At least this is how he. How Pat perceives it.

And then it's like. And then Ben, he's a opportunity. And he goes, well, as per the last. I've asked for the job description six times and it hasn't been done. Oh, perfect. Looks like you just should get together after this and sort of mind and, like, you have to be respectful.

Of course.

Obviously you've got, you know, subordinates and superiors and all that kind of stuff. And you've got to. But you've got to go, like, if I give someone 25 projects, they should go to me. Okay, but which ones do you want me to stop doing? Yeah, because, like, I can't. Or will you approve overtime? Yeah, you know, it's like, well, I really need that out.

Yeah.

But it's like no one's intentionally fudgeing anyone around.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that's what I think people don't understand. It's like, you know, there was an issue with two staff in here. I want to say who these done. Okay, well, it's going to take me an extra two hours a day for the next two weeks.

Yeah.

Like, I'm willing to do it, but I need overtime. And I go, okay, I approve. Over time, you Know or be like, well, okay, I don't actually need those ones. Like, I had someone come to me, contractor come to me recently and want a bigger rate for full time. They said, if you want me full time, this is the right. I said, then I don't want you full time. They are the other week, and one person said, this person's doing this. And I was like, have you told them? They went, nope. I was like, then how are they going to fix it? So I went, wait, come here into the room.

How'd that go?

Well, they were very surprised. And I was like, well, if that's the rate, like, I don't want you full time. If you're having trouble with the load of projects that you require, I'll take these three projects off you. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, I didn't do it. You know, I was just like, well, no, I don't. I don't want to pay that much for that work. Like, I have other resources available to me. I would. I was like, this person has this issue with you.

Carry on.

What are you gonna do?

Yeah.

And I was like, is it. Is it. Is it reality or is it perception? Like, just keep paying you the same. Take those projects away and we should have a problem. But that's not what they want.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like, oh, well, what do we. What is it? Because I. Because then I'd also been told this same thing by a different person. So I just want more money. I don't understand, you know, so, like, and it's fine. But, like, I don't. I don't want that.

Yeah.

You know, and I won't overpay.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't have any. Obviously, this is what's happening, so let's just nip this in the butt right now. And most time it's like, oh, sorry, didn't know that was a problem.

Yeah.

You know, and like, I think people think that those. Those are going to end badly with anything that I think is particularly pressing, you know, that would require me to pay what I would consider double market rate for something. So it's like, well, like, why do it? And I think people are surprised when you go, well, I just want to do that.

Yeah.

But I. But I thought.

I thought I had you by the balls. So I'm curious, what am I holding here? Yeah, they're your own balls.

Yeah. People. But really, 99% of the time, it's going to end with like, oh, man, I didn't even realize.

Yeah.

You know, because no one is intentionally. Anybody around. No, no. We're all on the same team.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it's like, it's just. But if people aren't going to tell people when they're not doing. When they're doing something that's hindering their job. Enjoy. So it's interesting. It's interesting. But I think, you know, in. In my progression as CEO sort of things, I'm getting better and better at that of just looking at things.

Okay, here's. Before we wrap it up, here's. Here's something that sort of. I think about if Matt today can have a conversation with Matt to you.

Or not getting things done fast enough or whatever, then it's like, how is anyone supposed to fix anything? And so. And I think one of the problems is that everyone here has like a close personal relationship years ago.

What do what?

And it's a. You got 30 seconds. You're a time traveler.

Yeah. There's a.

There's a small interdiction in time where you get to sell yourself at the end of 2021. That would have been good advice.

That would have been good advice.

Yeah.

No, I would say it would be like. And so it's like we have to kind of leave that at the door and you have to be able to go, hey, man, like, I need this done. Like, this has to be done.

Yeah.

And I think as well, like, in vain with that is sort of delineating.

Between excuse for me, it would be something that I can actively do. Like, you know, so the only thing that I should have actively done much sooner was focused on my own, like, sort of done what Marco did. I think one thing that Marco did very well is he organized himself very well because it's impossible to manage people well if you yourself are not organized.

And reasons like, like, yeah, sometimes there's a good reason why something can't be done. And it's because, like, hey, you don't understand everything that we're doing. Say like just in, in my area.

And I have like, my brain has a good capacity to manage many things at once.

Right.

However, that is a very difficult thing to work under because if I can do it, why can't you? And like, you know, I can throw a ball really well, but like, you know, Mooney can out row me and he can outrun me and he can.

Certainly fucking creative department. There's. There's a lot of different people to service. And so when someone says, hey, I need this, it's like, yeah, but like, and everybody what they want Is important.

How pack march me. But like my ability to kind of have everything up here all at once is really good. But that comes from the fact that I couldn't read as a kid. I had learning disabilities and I just learned to keep everything up here. But now there's so many things to keep that I can't. I can't do it well enough. So now I have to like, I.

Have to them and therefore is a rush.

Right.

And then. Yeah, fast. And that's like, that's fine. But we also have these brace structure.

Whereas that's like the opposite of who I am. And had I have done that earlier, these businesses would all be double.

Right? Yeah. Okay.

So it's sort of other things. And you can jump the queue like if. If there's a good reason to jump the queue.

Otherwise embracing in a structure. A structure that I. That like and I need to figure out. I don't need like, everyone uses ClickUp. I'm never logging into ClickUp.

Okay.

Like, I fucking hate it. I don't want to touch it.

You're just in the queue. And the good reason, like, I need to weigh that against all my other things.

I understand it's very useful.

Yeah, Right.

However, for me, Excel works better.

Okay.

Things. And you can't know everything that I'm working on as a requester of something. You can't know it.

And so I have. They're like, oh, what we'll do is we'll get this and put in ClickUp. I was like, no, I don't, like, I don't need to be in ClickUp. That's not the realm of. I need to know the projects that these people are doing. And I don't even need to know the subtasks of what they're doing. And I don't need to be updated in real time. I'll have a meeting with them every week.

I think it's just having the balls to actually have those sorts of conversations.

You're pretty good at that. Like with Marco, for example, example, it'll be 20 minutes and they'll tell me where they're at. And that's all I need to know.

Yeah.

You know, so like it's a like not. It's a structure that I can do, which is very clear to me. It's very visual. I bought. I bought a project management Excel sheet off Etsy. Right.

How much you pay for that?

$5.

Killer.

Fucking fantastic.

Yeah.

Marco gives a ridiculous request like, I need video Facebook, you know, motherfucker. Like that makes no Sense.

Yeah, yeah.

And you go, that makes no sense.

Yeah, that.

But everyone goes, okay. And then has a three hour meeting to try and decipher what it shits on everything I've ever used.

It's five bucks, dude.

Same as like the financial dashboard that I bought off Etsy. Fucking phenomenal, really. Basically takes everything for your P. L. So I have the bookkeeper every month update all the numbers from it.

And then it just saves me time when you can just say, hey, what do you mean by that, man? Where's that going? When exactly do you need to buy it? Okay, cool. Got it.

Spits out fucking data.

Yeah.

And dashboards or visual. I'm like, oh, look, this and this and this or the numbers that I require.

Yeah.

And it's amazing. And it costs $5 and 49 cents.

There you go.

Yeah. Rather than like, and it's done.

Yeah.

You know, and like that creates a cadence of like, yeah, I'll do what you need, but you got to give me the information. Yeah, but I'm going to tell you the information I need because sometimes.

Yeah.

And it was like, man, I've been like trying to figure some of this shit out for you.

Paid thousand dollars a month and all kinds of software.

Excel shits all over it. And then people are like, oh, we'll do it in Google sheets. It's like, no, those people, like, they just.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think you sort of hit the nail on the head a little.

It's got to be Excel. Like there is a significant difference between the two.

Really.

The macros are so much better.

But when you say that like nobody is ever, I think. And I mean, of course there's.

And all right. And so, yeah, I think it's just like now I feel like I know everything that's happening at the moment. Like, I know all the structures, all the people. I know what everyone's working on. And I know like finances back to front. I know like, I know everything that I should know. And I feel like right now it's in a very consumable way for, for me to digest it.

And then workplaces, right. But there's very, very rarely, if ever, people intentionally working across purposes. It's usually just because, like everybody in their individual section people are highly motivated.

They will be able to like, think about it because like, my job shouldn't be like, I should be at 2:00 clock reading the paper because, like, that's where I kind of digest everything.

Yeah.

You know, and like, I have to Sit on it. I have to ingest a lot of information. And so if I make bad decisions based off the information that I'm getting.

And I don't want to be successful and they, they, they are accountable to what they're accountable to. And if you're a support, have a.

Chance to actually think. Think about it. You know, like Jordan Peterson. Think about it. You know, like when Jordan Peterson says.

Like, I thought an asset of that. They bring you under their basket of accountability. It's like, yes, but I'm the supporting asset to many about something deeply.

You can just picture that guy like this, like, thinking about it deeply. Right.

Like other things.

Yeah.

And the same people are asking the same things. And so I need you to be.

Honest with three days thinking of all the different variables. Like, yeah, like, you know, Dr. Strange and the.

Do you know his, his superpower in interviews is to think during interviews and withdrew. Endure that uncomfortable silence. Especially live interviews when people are asking stuff and you see him just like. And you see people like, no, we can't have dead space. And they're like, say something. Say something we can't have.

Yeah.

And he's actually weighing it up and then like, even changes his mind as the words are coming out of his mouth.

Yeah, I haven't thought of it that way.

Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, it's really interesting. But that's, I think, like, that ability to do that is really. Support is difficult too. It's like you just kind of want to solve stuff sometimes. You need to, like, you should think about it.

Yeah.

You know, and I think, like, like, not in the sales people. Like, I need to go in and think about it. So you're not going to fucking think about it. You're never going to think about this another second in your life?

No.

And do you need this buy. That's the big one. Like, when actually do you need this? Because we'll have it ready. But if you say you need it for Tuesday and I find out you didn't need it until the following week, that's why you go to the back of the line.

Yeah. Why everything. Why are you fucking me around on purpose?

Yeah.

Yeah. So I think that that's the key. And so what I'm trying to do is develop a culture of, like, just speak your. Like, you're fat, you need to lose weight. What else you got to think about? You know, like.

Yeah, fucking sort of think about how delicious food is.

Yeah.

That's all you got to think about.

Yeah.

So. Yeah. So I think, like, that. Let's, like that telstra thing, man. Like, I make eight decisions a year, but they're all really important.

Yeah.

It's like, that's an interesting way to go about life.

Yeah.

I can't imagine Elon Musk mind. And, like, you have to be respectful, of course. Obviously, you've got, you know, subordinates. And Elon, I can imagine what Daddy.

Well, we said last week that he wasn't going to sack anyone, and here.

He is and all that kind of stuff, and you've got it, but you've got to go. Like, if I give someone 25 projects, they should go to me. Okay, but which ones do you want me to stop doing? Yeah, because, like, I can't. Or will you approve overtime? Yeah, you know, it's like, well, I really need.

He did it. Fuck them.

Oh, yeah. It's a good place to stop.

That's it for another episode. Coffee is for closers. This is us. If you like this stuff, give us a comment. Hit the like button, all that. If you're listening. Old school in the car.

Good for you. Well done.

Well done. Let us know what type of car you have in the YouTube comments when you go over.

Log back in.

It's the only one we can monetize.

All right, goodbye.

Put that coffee down. He's done. Okay, well, it's going to take me an extra two hours a day for the next two weeks.

Yeah.

Like, I'm willing to do it, but I need overtime. And I go, okay. I prove over time, you know, or be like, well, okay, I don't actually need those. Once, like, I had someone come to me, contractor come to me recently and want a bigger rate for full time. They said, if you want me full time, this is the rate. I said, then I don't want you full time.

How'd that go?

Well, they were very surprised. And I was like, well, if that's the rate, like, I don't want you full time. If you're having trouble with the load of projects that you require, I'll take these three projects off you. And I was like, oh, no, no, I didn't do it. You know, I was just like, well, no, I don't want to pay that much for that work. Like, I have other resources available to me. I will just keep paying you the same. Take those projects away. And we should have a problem.

Mm.

But that's not what they want. Yeah, it's like, oh, well, do you just want more money? I don't understand, you know, so, like, and it's Fine. But, like, I don't. I don't want that.

Yeah.

You know, and I won't overpay.

Yeah. Yeah.

I don't have anything that I think is particularly pressing.

Mm.

You know, that would require me to pay what I would consider double market rate for something. So it's like. Like, why do it? And I think people are surprised when you go, well, I just won't do that.

Yep.

But I. But I thought.

I thought I had you by the balls. So I'm curious. What am I holding here?

Yeah.

They're your own balls.

Yeah.

Enjoy.

Enjoy. So that's interesting. It's interesting. But I think, you know, in. In my progression as CEO sort of things, I'm getting better and better at that of just looking at things more.

Okay, here's. Before we wrap it up, here's. Here's something that sort of. I think about. If Matt today can have a conversation with Matt two years ago.

What? Do what?

And it's a. You got 30 seconds. You're a time traveler.

Yeah. There's a.

There's a small interdiction in time where you get to observe yourself at the end of 2021.

That would have been good advice.

That would have been good advice.

Yeah.

No, I would say it would be, like, for. For me, it would be something that I can actively do because, like, you know, so the only thing that I should have actively done much sooner was focused on my own, like, sort of done what Marco did. I think one thing that Marco did very well was he organized himself very well, because it's impossible to manage people well if you yourself are not organized.

Totally.

And I have, like, My brain has a good capacity to manage many things at once.

Right.

However, that is a very difficult thing to work under, because if I can do it, why can't you? And, like, you know, I can throw a ball really well, but, like, you know, Mooney can out row me, and he can outrun me, and he can certainly fucking out pack march me. But, like, my ability to kind of have everything up here all at once is really good. But that comes from the fact that I couldn't fucking read as a kid. I had learning disabilities, and I just learned to keep everything up here. But now there's so many things to keep that I can't. I can't do it well enough. So now I have to, like, I have to embrace structure, whereas that's, like, the opposite of who I am. And had I have done that earlier, these businesses would all be double.

Right. Yeah. Okay.

So it's sort of embracing in a structure. A structure that I. That, like. And I need to figure out. I don't need, like, everyone uses ClickUp. I'm never logging into ClickUp.

Okay.

Like, I fucking hate it. I don't want to touch it. I understand. It's very useful.

Yeah, right.

However, for me, Excel works better.

Okay.

So I have. They're like, oh, what we'll do is we'll get this and put in ClickUp. I was like, no, I don't, like, I don't need to be in ClickUp. That's not the realm. I need to know the projects that these people are doing, and I don't even need to know the subtasks of what they're doing. And I don't need to be updated in real time. I'll have a meeting with them every week. It'll be 20 minutes, and they'll tell me where they're at. And that's all I need to know.

Yeah.

You know, so, like, it's a. Like, not. It's a structure that I can do, which is very clear to me. It's very visual. I bought. I bought a project management Excel sheet off Etsy.

Right.

How much you pay for that?

$5. Fantastic. Yeah. It shits on everything I've ever used.

It's five bucks, dude.

Same as, like, the financial dashboard that I bought off Etsy. Fucking phenomenal, really. Basically takes everything for your P. L. So I have the bookkeeper every month, update all the numbers from it, and then it just.