What You Don't Know About the Sales and Marketing Industries—Rant
This is a YouTube video titled "What You Don't Know About the Sales and Marketing Industries—Rant" recorded in February 2022. It features Matt Ryder and another speaker engaging in a candid, informal conversation discussing frustrations with the coaching and consulting industry, contractor accountability, business acumen, and the marketing sector's structural issues. The discussion includes personal anecdotes, industry insights, and reflections on business practices and hiring strategies within sales and marketing.
Hey, guys, what's up? We've had a little bit of. A little bit of a reshuffle. So we're holding microphones today.
You mean some forgot to bring them in?
How dare you?
Yeah.
Yeah. So welcome to episode of Coffees for Closers. It's gonna be a little bit of rant episode today. So if you're like me, getting a little bit heated, gonna talk about the coaching and consulting industry, I guess some of the stuff that we've been doing in the past weeks, because I just got back from the U.S. but yeah, it's gonna be a fun one again, right?
Strap yourselves in, guys. This will get pretty fun.
Strap in. Strap on. All right, cue the intro.
If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. I'm going to repeat that. You will make a million dollars within three years of the first episode. You listen to. We don't want pikers. We're not here to save the manatees. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this? You listen and review.
Put that coffee down.
Yeah, so just go back from the US we were there for. I was there for 12 days, which was like 11 days too long. And why is that, Matthew? In that goddamn country. I grew up in the States. I'm American, like, sort of, you know, and. But the goddamn food in that country does my head in.
You know what's worse than the food? The coffee.
Oh, yeah.
Thank God there is no closes in that country. It's. It's.
Yeah.
Is horrible.
Yeah.
That best coffee I found was like a good six.
Yeah.
This morning, no closes. Which reminds me, Sales Sniper, we actually have our own brand of.
We have our own coffee. Go on to the Sales Sniper merch store, which I believe is Sales sniper. Dot set forward slash merch. Something like that.
Maybe the link will be in the description. Just know it's not up on the store yet. We're not selling that until we have an office.
All right, well, you can just pre buy it emotionally.
You know what? Let's do that. We'll put it up for pre sale.
Yeah, pre sale.
To be shipped whenever we.
Whenever we decide to. So, you know, it was really interesting. Right? So we're over there. We were running a challenge for seventh level. Is also doing some other stuff. Had a. Ended up doing sort of. I won't disclose because all the NDAs aren't signed yet. But we've just signed a big deal with Bradley. Right. Which we won't go into, but that's all that anyone needs to know at the stage until I get the left and right of arc of what I can and cannot say. But it was really interesting, right, because like we had, we have a new board member at Sales Sniper who used to run a large company, Al Dimak. He also used to run Smirnoff Vodka. Right. And you know, he has a lot of very large, large corporate experience and he's given us some really, really interesting context. And one of the things that I have learned is that the coaching and consulting industry is taking the piss on many, many, many things.
Yeah.
And it has. The more I have learned, you just realize this, the more I am angered by what is happening. And I had like, you know, I had a guy, he came to me and he was like, hey, like nice dude, sure, he's good at his job. But he was like, hey, we'll do a VSL for you, it's gonna cost 50,000. I was like, okay, like that seems like a lot of money to produce a video. But, but, but fair enough. And then you know what, what I was told was, hey, I'll stick around until that gets a 3x ROI. And I was like, okay, I can sort of see if you're going to be basically guaranteeing it then, you know, like whatever. And then I get the contract and it's like oh no. And then so I replied back, I was like, hey man, where's all this stuff that you said? He was like, well, I can't guarantee anything because what if your funnel doesn't work? And I was like, ah, okay. And then like I just, then I had a media buyer, right?
Same conversation, very same funnel builder.
And yeah, and then I had a, had a same conversation with the media buyer. Okay, I can't be held responsible for anything. I'm going to charge you 40 grand to do this. But if it doesn't work, it's definitely not me. It's 100% the funnel. Then the funnel builder is like no, no, no, I can't be held responsible because what if the media buying or what if the VSL is? So it's like, okay, so all of you want more money than the CMO of Coke, right? Let's be clear. You all want to get paid like you want you top tier corporate dollar. Like I'm talking about like, you know, like the CMO of a $400 million company is not making as much as you, right? And they're channel managing all that stuff. And you want literally no responsibility and no accountability in anything that you do, right? And like as Someone who was two of us, we're on a commission only sales. Could you imagine going, hey, we don't charge any commission. We just charge $200 per call booked. But what if you don't close them? Well, what if your leads are. So we just. You just pay us well, don't worry about it.
What if our cause as you want. What if our sales guys don't turn up? But we won't tell you that because it's the leads. It's always.
It doesn't matter. I want no accountability. So like, and I guess like I've had a change of, of perspective over the last little bit as to how I will be going about managing external contractors and sort of like the agreements that I'm willing to sign. Especially after one of the horrific experiences that we just finished. Having run a challenge with seventh level, which is the worst contractor experience I've ever experienced in my entire life. But I won't get too into.
Oh, that was a shit fight.
Just the level of, level of non accountability is crazy.
Just ran on that a little bit. I feel like you need to. Oh, don't mention it. Just, just go for it.
Yeah. Anyway, we hired someone to do something and like what we got was such a level of right that literally the person was supposed to come into the office. And I was told by every single member of staff that if they came into the office they would physically harm them. And then during the thing that we hired them to do, we did not hear one word from that individual. Literally two days up and we still haven't heard from them afterwards. Except when they asked me how much money we made so they could send me a bill and I said, how's go yourself sound?
You know what's the most annoying part with contractors and, and sometimes like you've probably experienced it with like staff clients, the people ghost you. None of the follow up sequences work for ghosting when you're trying to fire someone.
Oh bro, I tried to fire this guy like five times.
If they don't turn up, bro, I.
Tried to fire this guy like five times and he just kept not showing up to the meeting. So I was like, damn you crafty son of a. Like, just kept not showing up. And like I didn't want to do it over email because I want to do it in a very particular way. And I knew the personality wouldn't have worked. But I was like, I was like, oh my God. I was like, they're like, have you fired that guy? I was like, he won't show up to the meetings.
Yeah. But the worst thing is he takes him, he accepts it doesn't turn up or five minutes. Sorry, can't make it.
Can't make it.
Funny story, right? I've been on both. I've been on both sides. I don't know if I ever told you this one, but remember in their previous company that were leaving and I was just sticking around there till we could afford to pay me because we weren't at a big level yet and these guys were trying allegedly, everything possible to fire me. Like, everything. They'd set me a KPI. I'd be like, okay, this is easy. And hit it. And then not hit it after because they were a bad company and they owed me a lot of money. And I was just like, oh, well.
You guys, I'm pretty sure.
Oh, yeah, I just like, well, I gotta make your life hard. Anyway, so I finally turned up to one of the calls where they met to performance manage me because they weren't going to pay me my bonus. I hit the targets for the bonus and they said, oh, we can't pay this to you because you're being performance managed. I was like, am I? They're like, yeah. I'm like, did you ever tell me? They're like, no. Okay, well, we're gonna performance manager. I'm like, okay, set me a target. Anyway, so hit the target. Anyway, I get onto the. The call and they were having bad Internet. So they like, look at me at the face and like saying, okay, we need you to do this. And I just kept going. So. So, like. And this guy's going thinking, like, I can't see it because I just told them, oh, sorry, my Internet's not working and this guy's losing his. And I'm just looking him dead in the eye and he goes on this race saying, oh, xyz. I'm like, oh, sorry, I didn't catch that. Can you repeat it? He is boiling. And I would just sit there like poker, stone cold punch to give some fun.
This is after years of not paying. Oh, yeah, not paying. Like legal required employment, obligations, segregation things.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's takes a level of like for someone to go to that pettiness. But it was so funny and we couldn't.
We couldn't fire this guy. It was the worst experience of any, of any kind. Like, and everyone I've told about it is horrendous. And. But anyway, you know, c' est la vie. We move on, we live, we learn. However, like, what. What I have learned over the last little bit is that like, I think especially as you become more successful, people try and take the piss more. And so people come on and if I come onto a call, they will sometimes try and increase the price. They'll do a bunch of stuff which they wouldn't normally do. And so what we've had to do is create a contractor scorecard where anyone that we take on now, he's going to be an external third party, he's going to be doing something for us. There will. Their money will be tied to the outcome.
Yeah.
And so, and it's like, this is how all. And this is the, the crazy thing about the coaching industry. This is literally how all of life works in all. Like if you, if you contract a Coke, right, to do a thing, they will write in, you will get a percentage of your payment up front and then you will get the rest of it when that thing is done. Yeah, yeah, right. And that's fair enough because you're being contracted to do the thing you cannot and go, I want all of the money, I want it upfront. And then if it doesn't work or I can't do it, I still want the money. Yeah, you're like, but like, and then what if it doesn't work? Oh, well, that's somebody else's problem. And so like, there's been, especially in marketing, this hasn't happened in sales and I don't see how it ever could. But we could explore that as a thought. As a thought process is like in the marketing game, especially in coaching, consulting. And it comes down to coaching and consulting fundamentally having extraordinarily bad business acumen. Yeah, right. Like the level of actual running of businesses is so poor, the level of sales and marketing prowess is very high and business acumen is very low.
Like structure, you know what stuff, it's a, it's a new industry, relatively new industry by a bunch of guys that initially started it that were excellent at marketing and that got them so big to a stage because no one had done it before, that they didn't need to run a business. All they needed was good marketing, good sales, bring it in. And the fact that the majority of these business owners have no corporate experience. They've never been in environments where they've been around other successful business owners that run business structurally sound because the mostly Internet marketers, they look up to not having to do the 9 to 5. It's all about the lifestyle. Run it from the beach. When you have that mentality you're trying to get, build a Business around doing the least possible, not the most possible for the outcome. And then all of a sudden the guys that made it big in the initial phases running that style of business all created coaching courses teaching the next generation that this is how you do things. This is how we've done it, this is how we've been successful. So there's no fundamental, fundamental, like generational shift of teaching knowledge like that has been in business. Like you go get mentoring from.
Yeah, yeah.
Let's say if you. The CMO of Coke, he would have been mentored by the X CEO. He would have been mentored by someone that run a Fortune 5.
There's a level of systems and processes in place.
You know, you have to know to ascend up the ladder.
Yeah, exactly.
Whereas in this, this industry there is no ascension where you have to be so good at things that you only replace someone when they retire. Yeah.
Or they got publicly the margins in this, in the coach. We're not in coaching consulting. Like, we're, we're an agency. We're. We're a service provider. Provider.
Right.
So like we have very different margins. Like, you know, a good margin for us would be 20 or 25% net. A good margin for a coaching company can be 60.
We'd have a lot higher margin if we didn't, you know, spend so much money on boats and like that.
But, but yeah. So like it's just like there's like been this crazy sort of incestual.
Yeah.
You know, like almost like one upping and people are coming in going, I'll run your coaching program. I want 30 grand a month. You're like, man, are you serious? Like, and then we have this great guy that we, that came in, Jack. He's a super smart dude. He's like, I'm helping him with some business stuff and his dad is on the board, but he was pulling out a lot of. He was in the planning sessions that we were in and sort of helping to pull out a lot of the stuff that we were trying to get to. And I was talking to him and he's like, I cannot believe how much you pay these people. Like, especially for some of them were like, they're just not equipped to do the thing that we wanted to do. Yeah, right. And then, and then he was like, you could come to my master's course. And you know, like, because we're looking for a project manager. Right. He's like. And we're like, we're going to pay these guys 20 grand a month because that's what every mother seems to want these days. Right. And some of them are worth it, and some of them just not. He's like, you could come to my master's course. You could find someone who is overqualified, extraordinarily keen, very intelligent, who has a great background for this. For 70 grand a year, Aussie, I'm just like, which. And then I had like. Yeah. And like, you know, Jack, who himself is a very, very smart dude. And I was like, I could probably get him for 90.
Yeah.
You know, like. And he would do five times the job of literally anyone that I can think of that I've ever met in the coach. And so it's so funny. So, like, what? One of the things that I've learned is, like, we're gonna very much look outside of coaching to do a lot of our hires from now on.
Yeah.
Because, like, the level of compartmentalization that has happened within the coaching industry has caused a, like, fundamental lack of accountability of anyone.
Yep.
Everyone blames somebody else, and then it ends up in a cycle where everybody blames each other and nothing is getting done, but everyone's demanding the highest possible remuneration. And that is why a lot of these coaching companies just struggle to get past anywhere where they are. Yeah, there's just 100 or 300k a month or whatever.
It's just so many high horses, isn't there?
It's crazy. And this may sound like a little bitter ramp. Like, we're doing really well. Like, it's not that. It's just like, I've had a realization that, like, the. The cottaging of industries. Like, it used to be. Like, it used to be. You're a marketer. Yeah, Right. And then it was like, okay, now I special in online versus offline. Okay, now it's like, okay, now I'm a Facebook specialist. Right. You're like, fair enough.
Well, it used to be marketing department. Now there's media buyer, funnel builder, where I'm going.
And then it's like, okay, well, no, no. Like, I. I only do media buying.
Okay.
No, no, no. But. But I want the same money as the guy who is doing all of it. And then I only do funnels. Oh, but I want the same money as the guy who's doing all of it. Oh, but I only do copywriting. Oh, but I want the same money. So then you end up with a marketing department that's costing you $50,000 a month and producing what one guy used to be able to do.
I want to, like, have a sit down for like that big coach that everyone bought these courses off. And they said, hey, just do this and change the scape of the industry for like the worst.
Because that guy's a. Yeah, it's really weird. Like it was really baffling me and I was like, man, like. Because I was looking at some of the salaries that even like we were paying and like see some of our guys are fantastic and they get paid a lot of money. But then I was just having to think of like, man, I wonder like there's no way that these corporates, you can like the head of marketing for Home Depot is not getting paid anywhere near as much as some of our guys.
Yeah. They probably get like a 2,250k year salary.
Yeah. That level, you know, like I was.
Talking, they'd be nice bonus.
Yeah. I was talking to Kim like the top, top levels. The guys are on millions of dollars a year. Right. But they have been 30 years industry.
Yeah.
And it was so funny like when I found out like I'm just using marketing because I was, I was talking to Kim and he was like the CMO of Altamac and he was the CEO of Smirnoff. But it was like, you know, I was talking about CRO. He goes, CRO is not a thing. I go, what do you mean? He goes, it's not a thing. He goes, that's a. Because the cmo, the CMO handles all of sales and all of marketing. Cmo, like that is their job. They handle all of sales and all of marketing. Then you have a head of marketing and a head of sales.
Yeah, right.
And then they report to the CMO who then makes the decisions and then reports back up to the CEO. Right. Like that's how it works. And so like even like they've even made new positions like they people need to be a chief sales officer and then a chief marketing officer. Like this is the same job. But it's just, it's been such an eye opening experience because I've been doing so much planning. Not only would like accountants and lawyers and like you know that this one guy came to me and he's like, I want to sell my business. And I was like, sweet man. I was like. And I just like. And I've only been learning a lot of stuff recently, but I've been diving into it quite deep. I was like, sweet man. Like, what is the IP of your business and where is it held?
Dunno.
And I was like, sweet, you're never going to sell your business. It's fine. Which is why like that coach that we know that sold for like 6 or 800k or whatever. It's like that business was doing 350.
He got a good deal.
Yeah. Oh, for sure.
No, the person bought it didn't.
No. But that business was doing 350amonth, which is what, like, what's that, like $5 million a year?
Yeah.
And they got it for 600k at a good. And that business was doing really good profit.
Yeah.
So like that means they sold for like a.04 EBITDA.
Yeah.
Right. Like, which is horrendous. Right. Which is really bad, but probably worth it considering the state of the business. Right. So like I know what was happening, but like all these people want to sell and it's like there's like, like I really wish. And which is why if we ever do like a business coaching consulting thing, like I would try and like I'm learning it finances company teach people actual business stuff. Because like a lot of these people want to sell but like they, they haven't really nutted out what they're selling.
Nor do they know how to get into a position to be able to bridge a conversation, who to find the right people, what they look for in terms of a sale, what needs, what needs to happen with the books, what needs to happen. Auditing, what needs to happen from a financial planning, how well you stick to KPIs. Like all those things matter, when to sell at what.
And like a lot of this stuff we've only been learning recently. And I was like, man, I've never heard anyone mention this, talk about this. I've done five business coaching programs. Never once have I ever heard someone go, hey, just so you know, if you guys ever want to sell, you need three years of audited financials from a major institution like JPMG or Deloitte. I was like, oh, I've never been told that in my life ever. I was like, also you have to hit your projections. If you don't hit your projections, they won't buy you.
Yeah.
So you have to start that today. You need three years from now. I got a three year Runway to now get all of my finances in order, by the way, has to be done on accruals, not cash. Right. And I've got to have audited financials. It means every single dollar has to be accounted for by an external agency that is looking to you. Right. And then you have to have every single minutes, right. When you do your board meetings, you have to have all your minutes documented and Then you have to have your projections documented and you have to hit them within a certain percentage. Otherwise, like, it looks like you're doing it by mistake.
Yeah, I. I mean, I'll give you that. But also, like, in the defense of those people, we've never gone into a coaching program where we weren't the most successful people, if not more successful than the coaching program I have.
But back in the day.
Okay. Or we didn't overtake them within a month.
Yeah, yeah. That sounds a bit arrogant, but it's true.
But yeah, well, what I mean is like, that for those, when we're in those business coaching programs, that level of. Yeah. Business acumen, it shouldn't be taught to those, like.
Yeah, but I. But I take offense at the term business coaching.
Yeah.
Because it's sales and marketing company coaching. You know what I mean?
There is no business in that besides sales and marketing. That's really what they should.
Like, if all you're doing is coaching a bunch of people on the next funnel.
Yeah.
Right. Like, that is not business coaching. That is just marketing coaching. And it should be labeled as such. Whereas, like, people sign up for business coaching. Like, you should be taught profit first accounting. I went into a business recently, and I won't say which one and I won't say when it was, but it was like, this was a successful business.
Yeah.
And like, I was like, what accounting methodology do you use? Like, do you use anything? Like, how do you sort of control your ins and outs? And they had nothing. What operation software do you use? We don't.
What.
What internal communications do you use? We just yell at each other down the hall. There's no operations in that business whatsoever. Like zero. And it's just like, wow, this is like a really successful business.
It has the perception of being a real successful.
Well, it is, like, financially. And I was like, what was happening.
Yeah. You know, how is. How is this not falling apart?
Internet marketing world? Like, I would love to see behind the doors of like. Like, I feel like a really good organization would be clickfunnels.
Yeah.
I feel like Brunson has got his in one sock. I would love to see, like, Kajabi just got valued at like 2.4 billion.
Oh, where'd you hear that from?
I don't know.
It's been mentioned a few times recently.
But yeah, they just got $2.4 billion. So, yeah, I would love to see behind some of these businesses and see kind of what's going on. Not that we have our completely in one stock. We are working Very hard to get it there. Like, and spending lots of money.
Yeah.
Like lots of money to get it there for both. From a legal standpoint. From, like to be able to set us up to where we have an.
Asset just from a human resources of time. Like, that's expensive. It's very expensive projects that we're undertaking right now.
Oh, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that's just money that will come out of our pocket.
Yeah.
But so that we can have money in our pocket later. Like it's.
Yeah, it's.
You got to be able to. You got to be willing to go back to zero, I think to grow up big. Anyway, so long story short, everyone's getting paid too much money. There's a lack of accountability. It's really starting to piss me off because we run a business where we only get paid if we perform.
Yeah.
And I just want. And I don't think it's unreasonable for everyone else to do the same.
Yeah.
Like, I would love to sign up to a business coaching program where it's like, oh, you know, we only get paid if we increase your business.
Yeah. And if. I guess I'll just leave it with. If you consider yourself a business coach where all you do is teach people how to send terrible. Add friends and send them terrible dms.
Have a good home. You should just quit.
Like, seriously.
It's gone dark real quick. Yeah.
Just quit.
Yeah.
Go down the river, you know, don't.
Go across the river. Go down the river.
Mother.
The darkness. Anyway, if you stuck around. Well done.
Anyway.
Yeah, it.
Bye.
See, so if you're sick of that Starbucks coffee, it's okay. So I've got a three year Runway. Probably break the table, right. I got a three year Runway. Yeah.
And just a nice cameras, mic stands, you know, all that type of stuff.
Yeah, the mic stands are really good.
They're the new invisible ones. Yeah, I hear Joe's ordering them.
