Why I gave Up A $120K Per Month Salary. My Full Story

Selling a $97 fitness product is so much harder than selling a $10,000 business coaching program. It's not even on the same planet. The reason why I'm in the position I'm in is because I sold so much more than anybody else in the entire high-ticket industry that everybody started to notice and they go, what the fuck is this dude doing?

Whenever we're looking at Dialer, we always look at the data of like sales reps. They're working like part-time job, basically like 2 hours of talk time every day. How do you combat that?

Leading from the front, I think, is incredibly important. Your manager needs to be able to rally the troops, take some deals that guys couldn't close and close to him and say, listen, you little bitch, like, I fucking just called that dude and closed him. You're a fucking full-time sales rep. I'm your goddamn manager. Like, I should be rusty at this. Go and fucking do your job.

When did you sort of start becoming like more religious or like having that sort of impact that leads your life?

It wasn't until probably mid-2025. Like, I sold all my Rolexes and I don't have any of that shit. I just realized I bought them for the wrong reason. I bought them because I wanted people to know I could buy them. If you need to be micromanaged, you're definitely going to get fired. Interesting. But that comes from strong leadership.

Whenever I started coaching with you, I was like a bit intimidated because I was like, I hear stories about this guy at 7thLevel, like you're the most chill guy ever.

To be honest, I was probably way more chill at work than I was in my personal life. I think my personal life is where it really started to suffer. And so I had to just get the fuck out. Like I was at an inflection point of like, you continue down this path, I think you're probably going to become an infospace douchebag that has a divorce and some kids that don't like him. This is a podcast that I did with a guy called Mike Forrest. He was one of the top reps at 7thLevel, and he was also a manager there. And we go into a bunch of stuff and actually tell a bunch of stories about my time at 7thLevel that I've never actually told. Some of the reasons why I actually left. Now that it's been a long time, I feel very comfortable telling it. And we go through a lot of stuff on how to optimize sales teams and kind of how I've run them over the years. So watch all the way through and then go on to Mike's channel, follow him because he's a smart guy. Like when I left the gyms, I left because I was just a bit over it. Like I was, I had business partners that I thought were retarded. You know, they would make big decisions. We had like 18 gyms and they would make these big decisions and they were clearly stupid. And I was like, guys, we can't do this for this reason. And they would all kind of vote to do it because like mindset. You know, we can do it. And I was like, this is just ridiculous. So after years of doing that and making no money, working crazy hours, like making $80 grand a year to like, you know, for the big payoff, right? And then when I kind of read like the way it was structured— I didn't know shit about business— I realized it was like, this is impossible, like it's never going to happen. So I just like dissolved my equity, you know, um, and, uh, walked away. And then started like— I saw a big need in like— I was pretty good at selling fitness at that point. I wouldn't say I was good at sales, but I was like good enough, you know what I mean? Um, and, uh, yeah, then, then they started—

by the way, right, this is right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd never, I'd never done a lick of sales training. It was just like— but I've been selling full-time for years at that point. I didn't— I wouldn't have considered myself a sales guy at that point, like at all. Interesting.

Were you managing any sales teams at the gym, or was it just you doing all the sales?

Yes, like, but they were shit, and like, I— we had to hit targets, so I just did everything myself. Like, I I would just sort of go, leave me alone, deal with the customers as they come in, then I'll just do the sales. There's a couple guys that were pretty decent, um, uh, but like for the most part, for the stuff I was doing was like opening the new gyms, and it was just like me having to sell them. And we would get 400 leads and I had to make 250 sales from that, right? Like 400 Facebook leads, half the time it was like, who's this, what now? And I was like, yep, sweet, and go away and sell. And I would do credit card over the phone, make the payment, the whole kind of books and dice. So I did that for years, right? Which is like difficult outbound. And then, then from there, like, when I left the gyms, I was like, okay, I kind of want to like do something. The only thing I really know what to do is in fitness, but I don't want to have another gym. I don't want to go back to being a full-time personal trainer. And I was like, fuck. So I just sort of like had the idea, I was like, okay, what if I did sales for gyms? Because like I knew that there was a need for that because like a mate of mine had this gym and he was kind of really struggling. And I was like, hey man, like, oh, like I just left. I was like, if you want, I'll come in and just like do the sales for your gym. He's like, oh fuck yeah, do that. And I fucking doubled it, like, just, just through straight-up like hustle muscle, just going in there and made a shitload of sales. Brought in a marketing campaign of like, you know, 28-day transformation, and mate, just fuck turned it around big time. And I was like, well, that worked. I was like, I wonder if I can just keep doing that. And so sort of went out to the market and was like, I knew a lot of gym owners, so I just kind of called everyone I knew at a gym. I was like, how do your sales? They're like, yeah, fuck it, because everyone hates doing sales. Sales. And so like, it's not that difficult of a proposition to get someone to hand over their sales because like everyone hates doing it. Like, if you can do the job that people hate doing, like, mate, have it. Especially for like basically commission only. I think it was like $300, like $300 a week retainer, right? And then like $22 to $25 a sale. I would make.

$25 a sale?

Yeah, well, I was only selling something for like, you know, a few hundred bucks.

Yeah, I was like, yeah, makes sense. Okay, and then how many gyms did you do that for?

So I got up to like 50, but, um, I, I was doing it myself for like 7.

Okay, right, so you had other sales doing it for the—

I would do like 2 hours per day per gym, so I was doing like 14 to 18 hours a day of full-time selling.

Like it was like full-time outbound as well, right? Yeah.

All outbound in different countries. So what I would do is I had like, I had all the gyms kind of like I had, uh, like West Australia. So I had like Sydney be first thing in the morning, like 8 to 10 AM. Then that was 8 to 10 AM, uh, WA time. So I was like in Sydney and then WA, right? Like Western Australia. Sort of like think of, uh, New York and LA, right?

Sure.

So is this— then that would roll around to like the morning of the US. Then I would do the morning East Coast US. Then I would do the morning shift West Coast US. So the peak time— I figured out the peak time is like 8 to 10 AM, and then it was like 5 to 6— it was like a 6 to 8 PM. So I figured out that I could actually, instead of just like selling for 2, I could sell for like 5 gyms. And I could hit every peak time and it was just a big circle. So it was like peak, peak, peak, peak, peak. And then it was all of a sudden I was evening. So now I was back to selling in Sydney.

Sure.

Right. Peak, peak, peak, you know. And then I had some in the UK as well, which was like at 10 PM my time I could sell in the UK so I could sell till midnight. So I would start every day at 8 AM and I would sell till midnight every day. So it was 8 AM to midnight, 8 AM to midnight. Non-stop sales. I would have like a, you know, lunch break, whatever. But other than that, like, I didn't go to the gym, I didn't do shit. I was just selling.

Yeah, but that was fun.

Yeah, um, it was fucking— I mean, it was stressful. I got good though. But like, I learned how to sell a lot of different sort of niches, a lot of different stuff. And I was literally full-time. Like, I look back at it and I was like, that was fucking madness, man. I was like in a room by myself. I was calling on Skype, you know. I was like, I didn't know dialers. I'd never done any sales training. I sort of like was just like— and then like it started to work. And what happened was the marketing companies, because like the problem is gyms just don't call their leads, they just do not try to sell, right? There's lazy as fuck, you know what I mean? And so they just hate doing it. And so the marketing companies that were doing the marketing for these gyms like contacted me or like, what are you doing? And they just started throwing me referrals, like a crazy amount of referrals. And I had like multiple, like a couple of marketing companies giving me like 10 a week. I was like, fuck. So then I started to get salespeople on, and I scaled too quickly. It was a fucking disaster. Got up to like 50 gyms, and I was like, ah, this is crazy. Couldn't fulfill on a bunch of them, had to fire a bunch of them, you know, um, fire some people, sort of take it back to like, you know, say 25, 30 gyms where— and I was still selling. Got some people on who were pretty reliable at sales, and then was able to kind of, you know, get to like that 25, 30 gyms and sort of got it to like $50 grand a month. Month, like pretty quickly, you know. Now I don't— wouldn't say I was making a lot of money from it at that stage because I was like, I was making enough, right? Like it, um, I was making more money than what I had in the past, but like it still wasn't crazy. And then from there, like what happened was I— one of the marketing companies asked me to sell the marketing, so I did that and closed like 15 of my first 16 calls. Remember, they got like sort of high ticket Yeah, it was a $7,500 package and he was like, what do you want in commissions? I was like, I don't know, $300, right? And he was like, I'll give you $400. And I was like, I remember calling a friend going, this fucking idiot's gonna give me $400 to close the deal.

Like 5% of that.

I couldn't fucking believe it, bro. This is crazy. And like that offer, um, like yeah, I've, I crushed it and like started making— I was like, oh, this is pretty good. And then I saw this, uh, then I like saw Taylor Welch's stuff, and then I was like, oh, this is like when he was coming up, and Sales Mentor did this. And then sort of was like, oh, what's this high ticket? And then I was gonna do Dan Lok's course, but I couldn't afford it. I couldn't afford $2.5 grand, like no way.

What was Taylor Welch's, like a low ticket kind of thing? It's just like a—

no, he had a high ticket. He had like probably the first sort of, besides Dan Lok, he had like the biggest high ticket sales thing. And he also had Traffic and Funnels, like business coaching. So you had business coaching, sales mentor. Sales Mentor was big, you know, like, you know, $20 million a year type thing. And so, okay, and so everybody had this like low-ticket thing they did, which was genius. It was a 21-day challenge, $97, 21-day sales challenge. I won it. I fucking won every category 2 times in a row.

This was selling the marketing at that point?

No, this was— yeah, so by that time I'd moved into selling for a business coach.

Gotcha.

Right, because like I saw an ad for him and he was like, okay, $2,000 for sales, a $30,000 package. I was like, fucking deal, incredible. Nice. And yeah, made 6 deals my first week, made $12,000, fired all the gyms that week.

How much, how much of an impact do you think selling fitness over the phone for like $20, $30 had, like carrying over to that? Because I know you mentioned a lot of times I made it so if I was to start again, it's just like sell fitness. I just saw high volume fitness.

It wasn't even a challenge. Like, selling a $97 fitness product is so much harder than selling $10,000 business coaching program. It's not even on the same planet, really.

Why do you say that?

Because there's no— there's like, when you're selling fitness, you're asking people to like forego things they enjoy, right? It's full delayed gratification, be in physical pain and pay for it.

Yeah. Like, how much of the outbound factor played into it as well? Like, not actually getting any inbound leads, just like having to call it.

I didn't know inbound leads were a thing. I didn't know that was a thing until like, I would say, 5 years into selling. Never. I had not received an inbound. So like, I just learned like, that's how you do it. You just get leads and you figure it out. Like, I wasn't— you don't have a CRM. We had no CRM.

It's like on paper.

Yeah, I used to get emailed, um, I used to get emailed. Yeah, I should just get emailed spreadsheets every day. So there's no speed to lead, and like, because we just had crazy targets that we didn't know were crazy, like 40% lead to sale was the KPI. Lead to sale, right? I was like, like, look, now you'd be like, you're a retard, but like, that's just what we had. And so we just kind of did it. And so like, we had to come up with all these kind of strategies of how we maximize leads, and like, how do we do this? Like, how do we— we'd sit down and go, how the 'Fuck, do I hit this target? Like, I have to hit it.' And I was like, 'Fuck, okay, I'll do this and do this and do this and do this.' I would just try so many different ways of doing it, um, that like it just gave me a good repertoire. And then, you know, when I got into the high-ticket stuff, I just sold the same way with the same tenacity and like just went in with a full scumbag kind of mindset of like, 'I am going to do all of the little tricks that I know of how to like find sales and find deals and all these things, like, you know what I mean? I'm going to do all of it. And I just did that. And because I was a full-time sales guy, I was used to working for 8 to 10 hours a day trying to make sales for 8 to 10 hours a day, nothing else, just trying to make sales, right? And then I go into the high-ticket world and these guys are like, I only want high-qualified inbound. And if it's a no-show, they have a bad mindset. Dude, if somebody no-showed me, I just fucking made phone calls until the next one. And so I just started like that. The reason why I'm in the position I'm in now is because I sold so much more than anybody else in the entire high-ticket industry, so aggressively, so quickly when I came in, that everybody started to notice. And they go, what the fuck is this dude doing? Because I was selling circles around literally everyone. And like, the numbers that I were putting up were so much better than everybody else. But like, they were all kids. Gotta remember, like, I didn't even start getting into business till I was 26. After I got out of the military. So like, I'm in my 30s, right? I've been selling full-time for 6 years, hard outbound, right? Dripping every single bit of money out of every single lead for years. And then I go into a group of 22-year-old children, right, who have never sold, and I just fucking decimated everybody and started making fun of everybody ruthlessly for it.

Do you regret any of that or do you feel like that was necessary?

No, I thought it was heaps of fun.

Okay, cool.

And so I was like, because, you know, I knew I didn't want to be like a sales guy full-time forever.

Sure.

But I was like, I need to make waves and make my money. But then I need to have like— I knew like that I wanted to do this sales agency thing because I was like, well, I did it with the fitness sales. I did it with the gyms. I was like, I bet I can do this. I was like, but I have to be like a magnet of good reps, and I have to be a magnet for accounts. So when you're really good at sales, like, it's just not that difficult to find people who want to hire you, right? So I had to let it be known what I was doing. So I just started posting stats all the time. This is what I'm doing. This is me right now. And so no other sales trainer would dare because, like, I was like— and then I started, was like, I'll do free sales coaching. Like, I was doing like small group stuff for free. Uh, because like I wanted to get like a stable of reps that like wanted to sell like me. And so it was all free, and that's how I was like recruiting. And then like, uh, because I was good and I was letting people know, like the way that we would do it is I would be the rep for the account for like the first month, set the tone, make the sales, make the client happy, figure out how to sell it, and then pass it on to somebody else. And that was like the first 30 accounts at Sales Sniper. That's what we did. I came in, set the tone, figured it out, passed it off, right? So like, so they couldn't produce the same as me, but they could produce similar-ish, decent amount. But it meant that I could like just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So like I've sold on, you know, 100 different offers. Also, if you want to join my community, there's a school group. It's $69 a month and you can go up to $199 and we have up to 25, 30 coaching sessions a week with about 15 different coaches. Plus we even have a weekly competition where I give away $1,000. So that's fun.

Whenever we're looking at Dialer, we always look at the data of like sales reps and it's like they're working like a part-time job basically, just like 2 hours of talk time every day. How do you combat that? Because like for me, when I'm looking at reps, it's very hard to predict from like interviews and stuff like that. So for you, how do you try to gauge what you were doing with the gyms? It's like, how do I find someone that's going to be willing to work at least a full-time job and not just like sit on their ass and do absolutely nothing?

Yeah, this is where like, like establishing culture, leading from the front, I think is incredibly important, right? Where it's like at Sniper, it wasn't that difficult because I actually did all the things. So I was the number one producing rep at Sales Sniper for years, right? Like I just was. And so like what that does, like this is what a lot of people don't realize, like your, your best rep doesn't necessarily become a sales manager. Right? That's not— that's not what that is. However, your manager needs to be able to rally the troops, right? And so they have to respect you in that way. So like, but what— like, if it— like, remember when you went in to manage 7th? I was like, you need to establish— like, everyone knows that you're good at sales because you were there, but what I want you to do is take some deals that guys couldn't close and close them and say, listen, you little bitch, like, I fucking just called that dude and closed him. You're a fucking full-time sales rep. I'm your goddamn manager. Like, I should be rusty at this. Go and fucking do your job. And that, that changes the dynamic incredibly because it's being coached by Michael Jordan. It's like, shut up and listen to this dude, right? And so what you have— what you like— a good way to do it is like you want to be good at your craft, you know what I mean? And so like to be an effective manager and to create a culture, you have to create a culture that like where you lead from the front, you know what I mean? Then what you do is you then like when you scaling, you get enough people who have seen you do that to be your advocate at the other levels of management, right? So at Sniper, I had like Rode and I had Shane, right? And I had Will Hinkson and Sean Ray and Jeff and all these guys who saw me sell circles around everybody firsthand. Like, I produced like a motherfucker, right? And like, they were like, fuck, he is good. And so that permeated throughout all of it to where like they did whatever I fucking said because it was— and like any— because the two, like me and then senior leadership and like the ones below them, middle management, were so bought into me that like they self-policed, you know what I mean? Like it was a fully self-policing culture. It was really cool. It was like we actually had pretty similar dialogue. No one gets fucking— everyone does their thing and the business works. Yeah, I mean, like, we don't need micromanagement. If you need to be micromanaged, like, you're definitely gonna get fired, you know? And so, like, but that comes from, like, strong leadership, you know? When people trust that the person at the wheel will make the right decision, it's super easy. Like, when I ran Seventh Man, people trusted me implicitly, dude. Like, because I, I, I— like, one of the things I learned in the Army, one of the things that really frustrated me about the Army, um, was that like, I'll do as I'm told, but I'd like to understand the thought process behind the decision. And in the Army, they never tell you. And like, listen, I don't have a right to that information. I completely— and I, I'm completely aware of that. I was just a fucking sniper digger. Like, I didn't have any rank. I was like, whatever, right? I'll do as I'm fucking— I'll shut up now. But Like what I found that really frustrating because I find it hard to trust the decision if I don't understand the decision-making behind it, which is ultimately why I knew I would never be like a career soldier. But so at 7th, like, I was very transparent. Same with sniper. And I was like, guys, like, this is what's happening at the moment, and this is what I'm doing to combat it, and this is my rationale behind doing it. And like, it means that some of you might suffer in the short term, 'But it is not directed at you. It is a byproduct of a decision that I feel I have to make, and I'm sorry that it affects you negatively. However, unfortunately, as much as I like you as individuals, I can't make decisions based off the personal output of a small number of people. And so, like, this is just the way it has to be, but it's not going to be for a long time, and it's for a purpose.' And people were pretty accepting of that because it was transparent, you know. And, and like I was like, if you guys disagree with my decision-making, like, I, I like you, I'm okay with that. I don't think you have the lens that I have because I have all the information and you have this much information, but I understand your perspective, but I'm right. Or even if I'm wrong, it's my business.

Yeah. So you're fucked anyway. Yeah.

So it's like it's going to happen anyway. And so like, but there is a reason for it. Whereas I think like when people see lots of changes, like, without— it just seems like chaos, whereas it's like, hey, we're having to do this for this reason, you know what I mean? Or like, hey, we're gonna let this ride for this reason, you know? Because when you're running a high-growth company, like, there are lots of important decisions that really affect people's lives. And I think that you kind of— you don't have to change your decision to not fuck somebody around, but you should at least let them know that there is an intentional thought process behind the fucking Sure. And I find that people also are really willing to kind of take the L if it's for a short period of time and there's a reason behind it.

Have you lost good people because of that ever? Do you feel like sort of like having that transparency and just being a little bit too direct?

No, I mean, like, not really, to be honest. Like, my staff retention is always pretty phenomenal. And like, I am not a tribalist, so like, my big thing is like, if someone gets offered an amazing offer and I'm not willing to match it, I, I wish them all the best. I go, dude, it sucks that we're gonna lose you, but fuck, man, like, you should take that shit. Like, and if, and if you're not happy there, brother, come back. Yeah, right. We used to get people leave Sales Sniper and 7th all the time, and then they would come back.

Why?

Because I made sure, like, people left well. I was like, it is important. Like, yeah, some people got pissed and quit, whatever, right? These things happen. I've hired thousands of people. Like, some of them hate me, right? Yeah, whatever. Um, but like, a lot of that is just like, you know, I have to play the bad guy in their mind. And it's like, sweet mate, if that's what makes you happy, it makes you happy. I don't really care. Um, but like, I think a lot of the time in management there's this— one, there's a tremendously good thought process behind most people who are running companies, from what I can see. Like, they're not actually thinking that much and they're just reacting, which is really frustrating from an employee standpoint, day-to-day kind of thing. Yeah, but that's not me. I don't do that. I don't make really flippant choices. Like, if I'm making a decision, it's like, it's probably quite thought out.

And then at that point, when did the collab with Jeremy and 7th Level happen? Like, how did that transition from like running a sales agency to being a sales rep for 7th and then a CEO?

Basically, I was doing both at the same time, actually. So when Sniper was kind of on the up, I was doing stuff with Eli Wilde, and like, and then Eli sort of did a masterclass with Jeremy.. And I was like, oh hey, I want to— like, I was doing a little bit better then. And so I was like, hey, I'll buy that, uh, virtual training platform. And so I bought the AnyPickie virtual training platform. And mind you, I was making— I was making, you know, Sales Sniper was doing a few hundred thousand dollars a month. It was doing well. I was a successful rep. I was outselling everybody, right?

Sure.

I would say though, did I have a really clear process? Not really. It was mainly very pushy sales, just hustle. Yeah, yeah, like lots of follow-up referrals, outbound systems, like, and then the ability to handle objections. Like, I was really— I've always been good at handling objections because of the fitness, because I had to handle so many. So I could just like kind of cruise through a call and then handle the fuck out of objections. That was like, that was my strategy, right? And so, um, what, what— so then I kind of met Jeremy. And so I did the course and I was like, fuck, man, like I couldn't put it together. Like I just, with that, with that version, whatever, I don't know what it is now, but with that version I was like, I just felt like I just couldn't make it into like a cohesive script that worked. So I reached out to, I reached out to Jeremy on, on, on Facebook. I was like, hey man, I'm in your virtual training course, I think it's great by the way, I'm a friend of Eli's. And he sort of started selling me over DMs. I've still got the DMs. They're masterful. Masterful. Anyone who says Jeremy's not good at sales is a fucking retard. Anyone who says you stole any piggy from Michael Oliver is also a retard. Like, I have no dog in that fight, but it's just not the case. Like, that's like saying that fucking, uh, Lambo stole the car from Henry Ford. It's like, no, that didn't— it's not how that works. Yes, you know, Michael's just not that good at sales. Like, I'll say that to his face, like He's just not that good. Like, he's okay. It's like, whatever.

Um, Jeremy's really good at sales.

Jeremy's a fucking wizard, bro. He's a wizard. Like, people don't— people are not good enough to realize how good he is. You have to get to a certain level of good before you realize how fucking good he actually is. Now, is he that good at teaching it? I would argue he's nowhere near as good at teaching as what he's doing it, but he's still good at teaching it. But, um, but like Um, so anyway, so I was like, I reached out to him and he just started selling me over the DMs. Like, why is that?

What happened in the DMs?

He just started taking— I had no idea I was being sold. No idea. He was just asking.

He didn't know any PQ at that point, I'm assuming, right?

Because he didn't know.

Yeah.

And also, like, I, I— he started doing like just everything, any PQ, right? And like voice notes. And I remember hopping on the call nervous that he wasn't going to allow me to buy from him.

Really?

Like, that's how g'd up he got me in the DMs. And then he did a sales call and it was $40,000 US, right? For 4 sessions and 12 months of Voxer. Right. And I was like, he was like, how do you want to proceed? And I was like, can I break it up? And he goes, no. And I was like, okay, I guess I'll pay in full. So I like, I had $50 grand in the bank and paid him $40,000.

That's crazy. That's Aussie or USD?

USD.

$40K USD. That's crazy. He still does this and yeah, he still sells people. Like when I was at Seven, you know, people try to quit or people had like, and yeah, he's like, he just has this max sales aura. It's like all the time and people sort of know they're being sold, but they just fucking take it because it's like, you're just so good.

It's just, it's hard to get out of, man. It really is. Like it's really difficult. Like I remember because I was a business partner, I'll go into that in a second. I would let him have things that I knew were important to him, because I kind of ran the business. But there were times where I would walk away from a conversation and then 20 minutes later I was like, fuck! Because he just convinced me. He just convinced me it was a good idea. And I was like, goddammit, Jeremy. If he really wants to, man, he's getting his way. Jeremy, really, he really is. And I was like one of the more immune people to it. I was like, shut up, Jeremy, I know what you're doing. Like that. But there are things that he just— he's just effortlessly good at it. Like, it's very— when he has to, especially when he can plan it. When he can plan it, like, you're not saying no to that man. I guarantee it. Like, anyone in the comments going, it wouldn't work on me. Fuck, bro. If you think it wouldn't work on you, it'll work on you twice as good. Because you will not see the shit that he's doing coming. Like, there was a guy Really interesting. There was a guy that was shitting on him hard on LinkedIn, so he did a podcast with him.

I saw that.

And the fucking frames that he set at the beginning of that podcast—

insane.

This guy who's a fucking retard, by the way, like, come at me, bro. I can't remember his name. He's a fucking idiot. I could tell by the guy with a beard. Yeah, yeah, mate, that he didn't even realize was happening to him. I watched that podcast like 7 times because the level of mastery that was put onto that guy, like, he had no He did not know what he— he was walking into a fucking tank fight with a screwdriver. And Jeremy came pre-prepared, and the guy, like, was his bestie, fucking, by the end of it. And the frame— just go watch it— the frames he set up are such a masterful, like, way of making someone, like, buy into your way. And he was like, you know, you are— you're a discerning guy, you know. Have you always been like that? It was just— I was like, dude, you fucking planned this out. And the guy, by the end of it, was like, Jeremy's the best.

Funny.

But yeah, so like, anyway, I met Jeremy, and then I was selling for other offers, and I was crushing it. And then like, I just kept— I was a really good student of his. I was just a good student. And then I was asking him questions, like, I'm not stupid, so I was asking him questions that were pretty in-depth and insightful. Fulfilling, like I was understanding it. And he said I, like, I had set up because I wanted to be involved with him and his sales, and he said that he'd set up because he identified me. So I think I sold him, he thinks he sold me into it, but he probably sold me into it, um, you know, uh, right? But, um, Jeremy is better than me at sales, like I will never hesitate at saying that, like, um, uh, but like, and so then I came on as the sales rep for him. So I was still running Sniper, was doing like probably at that point probably close to $1 million a month. And then so came in, became the head sales rep of that, and then just started kind of doing it. Then ended up kind of firing— convincing Jeremy that like I should just run the joint. So he like gave me— offered me half the company. I turned down 50%. I took, I took 25 because 50% just seemed like— looking back, I mean, I guess it would have been good, but like I felt like he had put so much time into NEPQ that I was like, mate, this just doesn't seem fair.

Fair. Yeah.

You know what I mean? So I was like, I just think it's too much, dude. Like, you've put so much work into this thing for years. Yes, the business ain't doing shit. The business was fucking bleeding cash. Like, it wasn't making any money. But he sucks at business. And I don't think he would say otherwise, right? He's not a business guy. And so I was like, I'm good at growing businesses, like I can grow this thing. So I took 25% and then like, dude, I didn't even take a salary. I didn't even take my commissions for like a year because like I needed to make— I need to keep reinvesting in that business to get enough money to bring Jeremy on full time because he had bills and shit to pay. So I needed to get to a position where I could pay him $60 grand a month.

Why were you so invested at that point? Was it just because you knew the upside or did you have like a close personal relationship with Jeremy by that point?

I mean, I had a good relationship with him, but I had gotten to $100K a month in commissions. Right, selling my other stuff using his stuff. And I was like, if I can do that, you know what I mean, then other people can do it. So I was like super bought in on the product, man. I said, this is the best thing ever. Um, I was just like, this is incredible. And so I was like, sweet. Like, so I just sort of, you know, Sales Sniper was doing well, so I was getting paid a bit of money from that. Like, it was enough to pay all my bills and shit like that, you know what I mean. I was like comfortable Sure. But then from there I was like, sweet, I'll just go fucking all in. And then what I did is I then made Sales Sniper like the sales and marketing engine of 7th Level. So Sales Sniper and 7th Level were very intrinsically tied for a couple of years until I had to break them apart because it just got really messy with different countries and yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. And so then we grew that, and like, it— like, at one point they were both doing over $2 million a month at the same time. I think that our peak month was like 5, 5.5 combined.

Okay. And you were actively running both or were you more passive at Sales Sniper?

No, I was actively running both.

Really? Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Must have been a lot of time.

Yeah, it was, it was not a great, it was not a great time.

Not a great time in your life. Okay. And then how did 7th Level grow? You go in, you basically go from a sales rep becoming the CEO, growing the company. What was that transition of like being not really a company to actually like scaling it to $3 million a month, whatever you guys did?

I mean, it took like 2 years, probably not long, maybe 2. I can't remember, 2 and a half. Like I'd say we started in 2021 and then I was out by the end of '24. So it was a pretty quick— I mean, ultimately in the grand scheme of things, pretty quick. But like it was at $20 grand a month when I started. It was at $3 million a month when I left.

Hmm. Okay. And what was that shift of like, I need to leave this place?

I would say now looking back, it was the Holy Spirit. Like, it was God going like, you have to leave now. And like, I know why. Um, there's a lot of like personal reasons and stuff like that, but I would say like running a business of that magnitude with the business partners that I have were like—

not—

it was actually not so much Jeremy, it was more the other guys were extremely toxic, right? Like extreme, like, like like diabolically toxic.

In what aspect?

From what you can mention at least. Like extremely, like lack of morals, um, the way, like constant lying and like crazy shit like that. Like if I said it on here, people wouldn't even believe it, right? So like, um, but it was that bad that I was like, and like, and then like I have, I would say like some, like I definitely have a tendency where I can go like sociopathic. Because I used to kill people for a job. And like, I think like for a while there, like it was a different version of me taking the wheel. It was the Army version. It was the— it was like the sniper version of me at the wheel for sure. And it was affecting my personal life. I wasn't training. I was overweight. I like wasn't a super present dad. I was running— I was running 400 staff and like I was the glue that held everything together.

Sure.

Like it wasn't like— and like I had systemized everything, but there were people that made like the most retarded decisions you could imagine at senior levels. And so like, I remember once I took a holiday, like every time I took a holiday and I would put fucking like Marco in charge, yeah, he would make a series of catastrophic decisions that was so comically retarded that nearly bankrupted both companies on multiple occasions. Like, like, like nearly 7-figure fuck-ups.

Really?

Do you know what I mean? And like, I would have to then cut my holiday short, come back in, fix everything. And doing that gave me fully blown, like, fucking PTSD. Like, having to never being able to take my eye off the ball. And everything was so systemized as well. That was the first— but it was then, as soon as I looked away the chaos engine started. Because what I did is I held everybody at bay like this, because we had a whole bunch of like entrepreneurial people, but they're retarded, but they're hard workers and creative. But like, that's not a— that's a good thing if controlled, right? And I'm a good decision maker and I'm a very moral person. And so like, I was like, no, no, shut up, shut up, because I'm quite an alpha dominating like people don't want to fuck with me. And so like it was a control, like that. So everyone was like— I was held like this. The moment I went away, it was like an ideas machine of madness, and they would just try crazy shit, and there was no one there to go, that's stupid. Which is why when I left 7th level, the level of stupidity just went rampant. Yes, Marco's at the wheel, he's a retard, like, and like he just doesn't know what he's doing, but he talks like he does, so he just tries all these crazy things And I was— and like, there was just so many terrible decisions. And there's another guy that he works with called Kim who's equally as retarded. But like, you know what I mean? And like, they're just like— it's a series of like MBA ideas. Like, I went to business school, so I know what I'm doing. It's like, none of that shit is relevant in the real world. Like, this is all spreadsheets and PowerPoint presentations. And so it would just like— I ended up like having to do so many like just like having to tame the dragon to make it not— that I just fucking was like, I can't do this anymore, because it meant I had no patience for my family. By the time I finished at work for the day, I was like, do not fucking speak to me. Like, I do not want any part of this. And I had to work crazy amounts. I was making great money. I make more money now, to be perfectly honest, but like— and I work a third as much.

I'm way happier. Um, but that's kind of like when I hear you say that Yeah, when I hear you say that, it was like whenever I started coaching with you, I was like a bit intimidated because I was like, this guy used to like— I hear stories about this guy at Seven, it's like you're the most chill guy ever. I'm like, I don't know where that came from, but I understand that time period could sort of incentivize those behaviors.

Yeah, and like I wasn't ever like— like I never yelled at people. Yeah, you know, I mean, I didn't need to, but like I also didn't mince words and I was very clear and direct. It was like, hey, your performance is bad, you're fired. But that was after like 4 warnings, I mean, you know. And so, um, but again, like, you know, um, and some people like that, some people don't. I really don't care either way. Like, I thought everything I did was fair. But, um, for sure, like, to be honest, I was probably way more chill at work than what I was in my personal life. I think in my personal life is where it really started to suffer. And so I had to just get the fuck out because I just, like, I was at an inflection point of like, you continue down this path, I think you're probably going to become an InfoSpace douchebag that has a divorce and some kids that don't like him.

That was probably the path, and we both know there's a lot of those dudes.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of those dudes around. And I was like, you know, I, I, I got this powerful compelling in like October of 2024, and it was like, get the fuck out now. And I was like, whoa. And I just listened, and I was like, and I was out by December.

I haven't heard you speak about this. I don't know if you want to speak about this, but you mentioned like Holy Spirit kind of looking back at it when did you sort of start becoming like more religious or like having that sort of impact at least your life?

It wasn't until probably mid-2025 maybe, or like early 2025. Um, you know, I think like there's this, you know, thing like God has to humble you sometimes in order for you to kind of figure stuff out, in order for you to be in a position to where like you're listening. And I think you're given tests. I think I've always been a fairly moral person, obviously as much as anyone can be. Like, I, I don't fuck people over. I don't do any of that. Like, I, I don't like the idea of that. It just gives me the heebie-jeebies. Um, like, I can walk into a room with anybody in there, I know I haven't fucked on anybody. They may not like me, but that's cool. But I've been above board. Um, but like, yeah, I got this like sort of compelling and then started to get some good people in my life. And then, you know, after that, sort of, you know, when you're, when you're humbled and you're like, you know, maybe I don't know everything and maybe uh, that's not a bad thing. And, you know, maybe there is a, you know, I, I can't do everything without help, you know. I think like when you're riding highs and stuff like that, it's very difficult to admit that like you ain't that cool if things—

you're a human.

Yeah, you know what I mean? And so, which is when people start idolizing money and themselves and social media and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, you start— like, I sold all my Rolexes, and I don't know how many that shit because like I just realized I bought them for the wrong reason. I bought them because I wanted people to know I could buy one, you know, like, okay. I was like, now I wear this watch more often than anything else, which was a present from my kids. Um, so like, um, nice. Yeah, you know, and then I had a friend called Ed Stranks who runs a business called The Moderate Genius. Shout out to Ed. And Taylor Welch as well. And started sort of talking to him and he started kind of explaining some things about how, you know, some of the spirit things work. And I was like, this is super interesting, just from an interest, right? Just like fascinating. Watched a little Taylor Welch's podcast called The Deep End and then started doing my own research into Christianity and then sort of like historical, more like nitty-gritty kind of like you know, trying to sort of disprove Christianity more than anything, like, as like, maybe this isn't it, maybe it's fucking aliens, maybe it's this, maybe it's this. And then after doing, like, I would say a good 6 to 8 months of, like, pretty autistic-level research, came to the conclusion that all of it's real and that, like, Jesus was God, came down, died for our sins. And, like, all of the evidence that I could say like pointed me in that direction, and I was like, okay. And then I've never said this before, then I was sort of sitting there. There's a couple other backstories, but like I was sitting there and I was watching this podcast, and it was about this girl who had yada yada yada. Anyway, she spoke to Jesus, and I was like, man, I'd love to speak to Jesus. And he was like, hello. And I was like, what? I was just lying there. And then he came down and was like, oh dude, I'm here, what's up? 'You know, this is the first time you've actually asked to speak to me where you had faith that I would come. So like, here I am. What's up?' Oh wow. And I was like, it's pretty wild.

Yeah.

And like this whole like very, very intense feeling. And he was like, 'I'm here.' And I was like, 'Yeah.' He goes, 'What do you want?' And I was like, 'I just needed to see.' He was like, 'Well, now you have, buddy.' He was like, 'Peace.' And he left. And, um, I went to my wife and I was like, We're going to church.

Nice.

And then, you know, have then, you know, tried to— like, it's a great thing, man. Like, my wife has fully embraced it, my kids have, I have, and it's a big part of our lives. And, you know, the trope about the born-again Christian that doesn't shut up about it, I can see why, you know. When you sort of buy into it, it's a profoundly positive experience.

Good. Nice. Okay, so you leave Seventh, you are no longer the CEO. You don't have any authority over that position. And I'm pretty much sure you didn't do anything at that point, right? So you're not running Sales Sniper by then. You're not—

I had Sales Sniper, but only because I had friends, like good friends that were paid really well to work there. And so I tried to make it work, but like I had to do everything. And then after, after about 9 months of literally not taking a dime from it, right, doing all other consulting gigs, working crazy hours just to get those people's salaries. I ended up pulling the plug on it. I still paid out everybody's 6-month salary, and then Marco was still involved in it, and he thought there was like some never-ending money cash, so he was just becoming a fucking nightmare and trying to, I guess, scam me out of money or whatever. Cost me $400 grand to shut it down.

Really? Okay.

And it's not even technically officially shut down until like another 30 days because Marco keeps trying to fucking like rinse it for money.

There's no money. Oh, it's still going?

Oh yeah, dude. Oh, that dude's fucking— that dude has a, I would say, a demonic obsession with me.

Okay. I would say that's probably what it is.

And then how did Dailer?

Was that?

He actually, no, he tried to claim that Dailer should be his. In legal papers, he tried to say that Dailer, that he should be given ownership in Dailer. I was like, why? Because.

Because YOLO. Yeah. Yeah. Because why not?

Because you're a fucking retard.

Okay, cool. So Sales Sniper is quote unquote shut down, still on its another 30 days. But how did Dialer become a thing? Because I know you started the call center first, right? Before Dialer.

Yeah. Yeah. So the call center was sort of like I remember always being frustrated with dialers, always just like they're fucking shit. And I remember being super like, this can't be a problem for everybody. Turns out it was, but like, I just remember it like kind of annoying me. And so I had the idea for the call center because I was like, I wanted to build a software, but I just didn't think anybody would buy a software that I made, right? And especially like, how do I finance it? Like, I was like, I have money, but like, I don't have fucking financing, bootstrapping you know, software money, VC, right? Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, well, what do I do? So I was like, I had this idea for a call center. I was pretty confident that if I said I'll have my guys call your leads, people would fucking throw money at it, right? Like, I was pretty confident. I knew it was Sales Sniper but for setting. It's all it was, right? But like, you know, different offer. But it was like, I was like, that's my idea. I was like, I could, I could do that, right? You know what I mean? Done-for-you setting, good to go. Had this whole like African army of people that I'd fucking trained up, you know what I mean? And like made them half decent and they were pretty cheap. And the whole point was like, they're cheaper and they're better. They're cheaper and they're as good, right? They're as good as a fucking shit, as a normal off-the-shelf setter.

How did you not have issues with the accent? The African people?

Oh, because like, um, South Africans, like in— oh yeah, and stuff like they just have— that's not a normal accent. It just sounds like they live everywhere, you know what I mean? So, um, but in the US, dollar goes so far in South Africa, it's crazy. Like, dude, doctors get paid like 2 grand a month. So like, a high-level architect's like 3, you know what I mean? So, um, so yeah, and then I was like, well, I'm pretty sure I can get that up. I did 300K month 1, you know what I mean? Like, and then basically I went to my mate Declan and I was like, hey, I have this idea. This is a fucking great idea. I was like, yeah, it's good. He goes, I mean I was like, sweet, sweet. So then we went to build the dialer for that, and then like tweak the dialer, and then like we were able to problem solve our own software for a year with real leads and real reps. So like no other dialer is able to do that. And then all the money from the call center just went back in the development of the dialer. The dialers, it did cost us easy 10 mil. To fucking build that fucking thing. Do you know what I mean? Maybe not 10, maybe, yeah, probably 7. I would say 7 mil we'd probably spent on that fucking thing. You know what I mean?

What was the, what was the use of, of, uh, going to that kind of like, what do you think is the use of having a business partner? Because I know you had a business partner at 7, technically Salesnapper. Yeah, like having that experience, why did you want to have a business partner?

I mean, I just don't think, I'm just like, I just don't like, there's certain parts of businesses I just don't want to do. Yeah, and you know, having a partner there to someone bounce ideas up, I think is a great thing. Um, and Declan doesn't need money, right? And like, he's comfortable, he has his own businesses. So like, me and him were like, well, we can both have our own business and have this together, and then we don't need to take money from it. And then we have a vision of like X, Y, and Z. It's like sweet. And you know, like, me and Declan, like, uh, we get paid from Dyler, but it's pretty modest because we making comes elsewhere, but that just allows us to make really good decisions. And we're making decisions that are in the best— everything is about the product. What makes the product better? What makes the product better? What makes the product better? And so like the product just keeps getting better. And, you know, we don't have like huge jobs in the business, which means it's much more sellable. And we have a common goal. We want to sell it.

And what is Dailer for someone who doesn't know, like whether it's running a sales business for whatever reason, doesn't know Dailer yet? What is Dailer?

Outbound dialing software that allows you to get higher contact rates and speak to more of your leads. That's the value prop. You know, we also enforce compliance, which is all kind of part of that. So we are the only one that enforces compliance. We're literally the only one, which is, I think, going to be more and more and more prevalent. People want to break the rules, but like, it just, it doesn't really work that well anymore. And so like, the other dialers just aren't in a position to to do that, they'd have to change their business model pretty significantly. And so like, I think like we're ahead of the curve when it comes to that. It's a bit of right place, right time. Um, but yeah, like, you know, we're booking— we made— we're booking right now, we're doing 3 sales a day, you know, booking about 12, 14 sales recurring. Yeah, yeah, booking 12 to 15 calls a day. From there, 8 to 10 or, you know, I think it was like 9 show up, 3 sales today. We'll probably have another 3 or 4 sales tomorrow. Positive on the front end, SaaS, profitable business. Like, you know, we're looking to be at about $20 mil ARR by the end of next year, and then we'll start shopping buyers.

Nice. And where is Dialer today? Like, what are the kind of users or companies that work with you guys, or are pretty big scale at least?

We have, you know, Grant Cardone, Andy Elliott, Dean Graziosi, 7th Level, Cole Wharton, like you name it. There's also like home services companies, solar companies. Like, we're not just in coaching, anything like that. Like, we have a lot— there's insurance companies, you know. We have, um, we have probably like 1,200 users, I would say, and maybe 1,300 users, like individual seats. And then we have about 300 companies roughly, I think. Sure, that are on the platform. Um, yeah, and it's getting better and better and better and better. And, you know, like, the, the core product itself works really well. Um, there's always things that we could be doing better, but, you know, we, we know all the holes in our game and we're actively developing through them. It's just time takes time, unfortunately.

Yeah, no, I, I know I have to wrap up in a sec, but even when, when I was at 7th, Tyler was pretty much solely responsible for building the entire SDR department. So just like there was an SDR department that wasn't really an SDR department. It was like 3 dudes just doing like 1 hour of talk time every day. It's just like, yeah, we're having fun. We're getting paid a $5K base or whatever. And then implementing Dialer, we basically like took that team to 10 people, like 5x, 6x the revenue, like 90 days. And it was because Dialer gave us all that source, all that metric. So That was really, really useful. I think one thing that me and you were noticing as we're doing it is that there is so much stuff that Dialer gives you is that just people don't know how to use it. And that's sort of like some of the stuff that I don't know if you want to speak about it, about helping the managers as well now. So instead of just giving them the software and be like, hey, off to the races, you guys figure it out on your own. It's like there is some support as far as how do you look at the metrics and make certain decisions.

Yeah, like we're bringing out, you know, brought you on to help like with account management and basically just coach You know, like, I set it up to where, like, quite a competent SDR manager will be able to read all that data and, like, re-roster their team for optimal times and do all this stuff, right? But sort of what you notice is, like, that people just aren't that competent at it yet. And so, like, we're probably, you know, we started the performance sort of perform— like, manager performance coaching session twice a week that, that, like, that you're running, which is awesome. And, um, like re-sort of structuring the, the account management to where like we can actually give you data but then give you like, this is how you read the data and then take tangible steps, you know, like, you know, we had, like, we had, we had a home services company that increased their contact rate from like 25% to 60% just by re-rostering their team. And like, that same thing happened at Seventh. Like, I remember, you know, I was taking you through it because you were running it, and I was like, sweet, here's how you read this data, this is what it is. And it's like, hey, We need to get a team dialing from this time. It's immediate up, like immediate. Yeah, huge uplift because your leads are coming in here. You're missing out speed to lead. And we, we are one of the only dialers that give that piece of information because like I know in my sales background that that is, that is an essential thing to look for. But it's not that obvious, especially so we have a big fucking graph. It's like, here's all your leads throughout the day. Here's when your dials are being done. Like if there's a fucking big line here and no line here, you're like, oh, I mean, you'd line there. Mine, they're equal money, you know.

Like, sure, people still don't do it.

Yeah, but you know, fuck, you can lead a horse to water but you can't drown them.

Yeah, fair enough. No, cool. Yeah, that was good, man. Uh, so where can people find you now besides obviously becoming Matt Ryder clients, which I'm assuming not everyone's a business owner?

The only way I'll see you— so I got a school group called, uh, Fuck the Gurus. Uh, I think it's the biggest sales group on school, um, which is fun. A bit over 1,000 people in there. Mike does some coaching in there as well, right? Um, and then, um, you can go to Dollar.io or you can hit me up on Instagram, @RealMattRyder. That's, that's me.

Nice, good stuff.