Why sales teams have shi+y culture….
Matt Ryder and others use military leadership lessons to explain why sales teams often struggle with culture. They discuss how poor succession planning, weak management styles, and leaders who don't invest in their people create toxic environments that high performers eventually leave.
Welcome, guys, to another episode of Coffee is for Closers with Matt, who is with.
Not Matt.
Not here with James and Pat today. So exciting where me and Pat are on for another episode.
Yeah, it's got a good ring to it, actually.
We get enough of it. They always come back for more. Yeah, it's funny.
I'm becoming a regular feature here. All right, let's do the intro, and then we'll get into it.
If you listen to this podcast, you will make your first million within three years. I'm going to repeat that. Make a million dollars within three years of the first episode. You listen to. We don't want pikers. We're not here to save the manatees. We're here to make podcasts. You really want this, you listen and review.
Put that coffee down.
So today we want to talk about. I had a thought as I was driving over. I was looking at some things, and there's been kind of a little bit of a merge between two separate cultures before starting this company. There's one being in the military with yourself and Matt and me being in elite sports, particularly with the Melbourne Storm, where I picked up on a lot of leadership skills, as well as utilizing a culture to keep consistency and grow a. Well, it is a business.
But I really feel in my heart, and I get in trouble a lot for saying this. I think leadership is a character trait that you possess or you do not. And you can.
Couldn't agree more.
Well, that's it. Podcast over. And I think that you can go from a good leader to a great leader with guidance and mentorship, but if you're a dog, that you'll be that forever. Because I think that no. No amount of coaching guidance is going. You know, in the dog world, we actually say that you can't put in what Mother Nature didn't.
Right.
You.
If it's there, you can cultivate it and. And, you know, within. To even be more specific, you know, there's epigenetics that, like, you might just have to flick that genetic switch, like, have a trait laying there dormant that's never going to come out without some help. And, you know, you have to, you know, create a scenario to make that. That gene express.
Yeah.
Okay, interesting.
And you know that that's literally exactly how it works. So you have these genes that lay within you that may or may not ever express, and you need the right conditions to be set in order for your body or, you know, like whatever it is within you that goes, okay, that's who we are now.
Yeah.
A Lot of times. Stress factor.
Stress, totally.
Yeah.
Stress and the, you know, the way that you'll deal with stress, you know, and, and you, you push through stre point where you can make or break a being in a, in a session.
Right.
In a, in a coaching session or in a training session. It both made. It's exactly the same. And you, there's often there's windows of expression for those genes, so you get an opportunity to express it. And if that window closes and it's not, then it will never open again. So we find that with like, especially in my space. Yeah, I'll speak on that. Even though I'm sure people that listen to the podcast are sick of me being on it and talking about dog stuff. But that's my area of expertise. Well, beyond setting up these cameras.
Salespeople are a lot like dogs. Well, they love treats.
Yeah, it's a different kind bark, but so, you know, like certain forms of aggression that you, you get an opportunity to bring it out as a, with a puppy and then if you don't, it won't come out later. And, and the same, I think, like, this is the true of leadership. I think that you get, you know, there's something that happens, genetics, like, you know, your parents put into you and then there's the opportunities of raising them. There's a really cool quote. I can't remember the exact. The guy who said it, but on genetics it says that parents matter, but they don't make a difference.
Right.
Like when you unpack that, it means that your genes matter, but your, their parenting style isn't really necessarily going to change too much about who you are.
Right?
No, no, no, because, okay, they, they created you. And those genes are kind of, you know, what they can do beyond that is kind of not too much.
Right.
And there's loads of historical evidence of that. There's a really good documentary called Identical Strangers about three triplets that were se birth.
They come together complete different personalities.
No, like identical personalities. They had completely different upbringings. Completely different upbringing. So their father died in World War II and so their mother was pregnant and couldn't. So they were given to an orphanage. And back in the day, they were just adopted out to different people. They didn't know they, they were identical triplets.
Did they know that they had.
No, they didn't know they existed until two of them bumped into each other at university.
You look familiar.
Yeah.
And then that was on the news. Get this. So that was on the news because people like, holy, these guys linked up and the third one saw the news article.
What is happening? What would you do right now you're in that situation like that guy. Would you just think as a doppelganger.
Well, first thing I do is call my parents and my older siblings and be like, hey, how come no one told me about this?
Right.
But so on leadership, my back trying to bring us back to that. I think that really, truly, I believe that leadership is a trait that you possess or you don't. Management, you can absolutely learn and you see people who are terrible leaders that can manage quite effectively. But that's fine in day to day. I think leadership sort of shines and excels when things go not according to plan.
Right.
Like when things are being derailed. That's when you'll find out what kind of leader you have. When, when things outside the scope of management, day to day management.
Yeah. I think it's not necessarily the decisions that are made. I think you can make poor decisions and still be a good leader. It's how you execute on those that makes the biggest difference to how people view it. Like, I'm sure there's been situations where you completely disagree and they send you into a zone. You like, ah, this is stupid. But when it was executed rolled out with enough justification, you get enough buy in to do the job well regardless of your belief. And you put that.
Yeah.
Side and still do things.
Totally.
I, I feel like good leadership allows that to happen even when people haven't bought into the idea. Great leadership is when you have the right decisions and get people bought in.
Yes. Yeah.
I imagine it kind of like, you know, I've had, you know, being the, I've had so many bosses over time and they're your real boss.
Right.
Like and when you're in a platoon, the platoon commander will change every two years at the minimum. Right. So you get a new officer in charge of the 30 odd guys every two years and then the officer commanding. So who will be running the company, which is like three platoons make a company. So that's a major's job. He'll change.
Why do they do that? Is there.
That's just the career progression sort of how it goes for them. And so one of the big issues that you find in military, we call it the train set syndrome.
Right.
Is where an officer say the ranks are a little bit different in special Forces, but the way it worked at our unit is that a captain will be your platoon commander. Normally in the regular army it's a lieutenant.
Right?
Yeah.
But our ranks are kind of One higher. So a captain will be your platoon commander, and he's only going to be a platoon commander of an assault platoon for two years. In his entire career, he maybe will go to one of the supporting roles. He might go to snipers or something and be like the sniper platoon commander for a further two years if he's extremely lucky.
Yeah, but.
So he's been. He's done all of his training. He's done, you know, depends on whether he got a degree or whatever. He might have done seven years of training to get to this point. And he knows.
Yeah.
And he knows this is my time to shine. I've got two years. So we call it the train set syndrome. Because if I. If you've wanted to play with a train set your whole life, and I say to you, James, here's the train set, but you're only allowed to play with it for two, two days, right. You're gonna play with that train set like crazy.
I'm gonna turn it on to full blast.
Yeah.
I'm gonna run out of batteries on the first day. So I'm not gonna stop playing with that train set.
Yeah. Because you only get one chance, right? And then we're going to take that train set off of you. You're going to go somewhere else, and somebody else is going to get to play with that train set. But here's the problem. That's not train set. That's 30 dudes who don't move. So the issue is every two years you get some new guy in who's, this is my time to shine. And if he's going to be competitive with his peers, if he wants to be promoted the same way that, you know, his peers are going to be, he needs to do something special. And the way he's going to do something special is by, you know, show a spreadsheet and say at the end of the year, this is what we did this year.
Right.
He's going to show all these activities and this what we achieved. And he now has all these guys underneath him who are the people, they're the train set that are being forced to achieve that. He also knows this is it. For two years, I can work as hard as I want.
Right?
I. I can. My family will forgive me. For two years, I can work as hard as I want because this is the start of my career. If I want to get to Colonel.
Whatever happens here is set me up for life.
100%.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I will forego my personal life. I will forego everything else, because this is the most important time in my life.
I want as many carriages coming home with me.
But the problem is those guys in the platoon, that's their day to day.
Right.
So you get these guys like people.
Come and come out.
Yeah.
And so the, the boss comes in and he says, well, it's only two years for me. I'm going to go hard in the paint.
Yeah.
But the guys in the platoon, they get a new guy every two years that says I'm going to go hard in the paint.
Another guy that's.
Yeah.
So the very best leaders I've ever seen are the people that acknowledge that and they say, hey, you know, I'm not going to be that. I'm. And what's interesting is that they get the best performance.
Right.
I've seen some officers that were incredible platoon commanders and very often they are the ones that go the furthest. And the reason they are, they turn out, there's different roles. And as platoon commanders there was. Yeah, I said their names, but they were officers that guys would die for. They were the best.
Yeah.
The absolute best. And then they, they perform exceptionally well. They get promoted into, let's say an XO position. And as an xo, they don't have guys directly under them. They're the two. I say to the company commander and it turns out they're quits. It turns out they're the one like the worst people ever. But they knew the way to make myself look good and continue my career is to have a well oiled, functioning platoon. And the best way to do that is to look after the boys. So as a platoon commander, they looked after the boys incredibly.
Right.
And then so the boys are like, well, we'll work, I'll work my ass off for you because I like you and I want to, I want to perform to the maximum of my standards so that you do well.
Right.
And I know that you'll look after me no matter what.
Yeah.
And you think that that's a character trait of that person. You think that's who they really are.
They're just doing it as a totally.
A career move because then when they're in the next move and the boys liking them is not helpful. They don't care. They're like, they just over all the boys.
The same boys or different boys, the.
Everyone, they don't care because at that point the enlisted guys can't affect like their job performance.
Right.
They, they as the xo, they report only to the officer commanding the oc.
Right.
And so they're like the boys go. And their performance is not a direct indicator of them. And so they're like, well, I don't care about you anymore. I cared about you deeply last year. Because last year your performance was a reflection of my performance.
Right.
But this year your performance is none of my business. So I don't care.
Is interesting. Is that the best way to go about it? See, we kind of having that. Not necessarily a problem, but an acknowledgment that it could potentially be a problem with. Now, our account managers, we're putting some of our best sales guys into that account management role, which hurts us because they're not making sales, they're our best sales guy. But these are the guys that are that ambitious that they want career progression. You know, like some of them, I'll go out and buy another company for them to run, at which point they'll step out of that role. So there, there might be. And it's not something we thought heavily about. There's probably going to be that churn over the next couple of years of people stepping into that position where they're running teams now. It's interesting. And that's where culture comes in to stop that from becoming a problem. The biggest thing that you have to do there is that account manager role or that. What was the word you use was the name? Officer.
Yeah, officer.
Officer. In my opinion, the way that you prevent that from becoming an issue from the 30 guys in that squad for the next 10 years is you need to build a culture around that role. And the one thing that I learned really heavily from Craig Bellamy, who recognized that players come and go over time. If you want to be able to build a legacy, then there has to be something more attached to them coming in and being a fullback, coming in and being a front rower. And they, they put the minor concept that you next man up, right? You come in and you leave the jersey or that number, that role better than where you left it. And that whole ideology that they're buying to for their career is that, sure, I'm going to be the next hooker after what say, Cameron Smith was for the guys in the US it's probably irrelevant to you, but Google Tom Brady, for instance.
Yeah, right.
So the guy that replaces Tom Brady, he's like, I'm going to. I've come in, I've stepped into this guy's role. It's now my responsibility to further that legacy of that position. And then in 100 years, they're not going to be talking about one individual. They're going to be talking about the system that develops people to step up into that role.
Yeah.
And that whole next man up mentality is to be like, okay, I'm going to come in, I'm going to leave that position better than where I left it. And because of that you have people come in and go, all right, well this is what this guy did really well. He was the best of the boys, other guys. I just want to play with that train and building in a culture of like, excellence. It's like your role is to be better than what he was in areas X, Y, Z. Yeah. Then all of a sudden you have people coming in to fulfill and step in without any change or effect to those 30 people whose lives are on the line for them making a decision. And I think that's the only way that you can get that platoon or group. Group or whatever.
Yeah.
Long term results over a long term period of time is making sure that that leadership role has a bit of a legacy. It has a guideline of exactly what it needs to be to create a, a really strong succession model.
Yeah.
And that model is it always has to be bigger than their person that's in the role. It's about something more and that's how you build the culture to have that long term success. And yes, the question is. Because it sounds like from the way that you explained it, that necessarily wasn't done well.
Yeah.
It's more about capability. So like in the military, it's more about make sure that they preserve the cap. Right. So that would be like what an officer is being assessed against is like did they maintain capability throughout the year and is the platoon still functional the following year for someone else to take over? And you know, for the most part they all do that. Like there's no one. That's terrible.
Right.
There's just varied degrees of success, varying degrees of greatness. Yeah, exactly. And I think one of the things that the military does quite well and I think that it's something that maybe, you know, could be. I think that the corporate structures that I see that sort of take this on it works well, is that there's a two. I see of. Of every what in every, you know, whatever size group you want to pick from the military, there's an officer that's in charge of it.
Right.
And he'll do that short stint in it. But there's also an enlisted guy that is his kind of equivalent job and is his, you know, second in command of the platoon. But his job is not functional command. His job is to Sort of, you know, represent the guys who stay there, the enlisted guys. So, for example, my first year as a sniper platoon sergeant.
Right.
So that for me, within snipers, which is two.
I see.
Yeah. So within snipers, as an enlisted guy, as a person who joined the army as a private to stay within a platoon, that's the highest rank you can be. You're the platoon sergeant.
Right.
And so then there's a platoon commander, a captain that comes in and is. He's the actual platoon commander, but he's brand new to the unit. When I was a platoon, when I was a sniper platoon statute. This guy had literally just finished his training to get into the unit and he gets brought in. He's got no experience within the unit whatsoever, doesn't know anybody and is in charge.
Right.
And is expected to be able to get the best out of all of you guys when he doesn't know the strengths and weaknesses of every individual.
So what I found in every instance now, I hadn't. He was very, very good.
Yeah.
And what. When he came in and I was like, hello. Like, yeah, like, I've been in this unit for 12 years. I literally grew up in this unit. I joined. I was, I got here when I was 19. So, like, there's nothing I don't know about this job.
Yeah.
This is your first day now. He's from the regular army and knows a lot of stuff. And it's like, hello, how's this going to go? I'm meeting this guy. Close the door. And he says, man, I'm. I'm absolutely want your guidance on everything. And what he said to me and I'll never forget. And it was one of the best, you know, it's what I wanted to hear. He said, I'm in charge and I'm accountable.
Right.
Like if we, if we make mistakes, if up. Whatever I'm. It's my head on the chopping block.
Yeah.
I get fired if.
Yeah. So I get final say in everything. But I will be looking for your opinion on pretty much everything. And I may not always take it.
Right.
And he said that to me, like, as clear as that. And he's, yeah, I'm going to be looking to you for guidance. Never feel like you can't offer me that.
Yeah.
But I'm not always going to take it because at the end of the day, it's my. It's my head on the chopping block. And I was like, oh, can't ask for any more than that. And there were times when people would ask him Questions, questions. Damon's his name. He's a great guy. He's out of the army now, but. And we'll. Yeah, I think I'm two years older than him, so, like, he's the boss. He's very much the boss. But there were times people would ask him questions and he would look at me and be like, expecting you to.
Yeah.
What's the answer to that? Like. And he didn't. He didn't. There was no. Like, I pretend that I know more. He would be like, no, that's a. That's a question for Pat.
Yeah.
Right.
And I think that's what leadership is.
Right.
Like, I think that that is, like, when he's like, okay, I'm. I'm ultimately in charge, but I'm not going to try and move this pendulum, like, so, so broadly. I'm just going to steer it a little bit.
Right.
And it's my head on the chopping block, but I'm leading these people, and these people are the ones that actually do the work.
Right.
So I'm going to take their input. I'm going to. I'm going to listen, I'm going to, you know, take on board everything they have to say. I'm not always going to do it because maybe I know things they don't. Or. At the end of the day, he has to truly believe in whatever decision he makes going forward because he's the one enacting it and he's accountable for it.
Right.
But to me, that's what leadership was. I was like, okay, this guy's a great leader. He has the capacity to be a. Like, he has that genetic genus, aqua, whatever it is. Like, he's got that thing and now accepting responsibility.
Yeah.
And so now I feel great about this whole situation. He's going to. He's going to guide. He's going to take control. He's going to take on board everything I offer him. And will he do it all the time? No, but. But at least he'll hear me out. And there were times where he would, you know, come up with a decision, and I'd say, like, you know, and there's a responsibility that comes from holding that position. Like, I would never do that, you know, in a disrespectful way. Would never do that publicly in front of the guys because they have to see us as a team, and we would have to close the door sometimes and duke it out.
Right.
There's a lot with me, Matt.
Yeah, exactly. But when we come to a decision on that point, now we get in front of everyone and if we were going his way, I smile and nod and I agree entirely with his way in front of all the boys. Because having that split leadership is like, that is a big problem.
And the thing is, if the, the biggest, the risk factor there is, if you're hesitant and you show hesitant to your guys, like they've been there with you for 10, 10 years or what not, even if it's not been that long, they know when you are going to doubt that decision. That creeps in and they'll begin to doubt. Yeah, you know, yeah. It's funny, like the way with me, Matt, the relationships works is we have those same conversations. You know, he'll, he'll be wrong from time to time, I'll be wrong from time to time. We admit it when we're, we're wrong. And once you admit it and go, yeah, you know what? People like, ah, you're only human.
Yeah.
And people get so afraid of doing that. And I think the biggest difference between managers and leaders is leaders want to be held accountable for. Managers want to pass on that accountability to someone else.
Right.
That's the biggest thing that I've seen. And when people step into leadership positions, it's like, they're not leaders because, well, some are. But it hypothetically in this instance, some people aren't leaders. They don't have that capability because they're afraid of, am I going to lose my job if I get this wrong? And when that fear creeps in, people make poorer and poorer decisions. They get less buy in because you can sense the hesitancy and fear. But those, those conversations happen with Matt. You'll say, oh, this is what I want to do. I'll be like, yep, that's, that's great. Go for it. Sometimes I'll be like, I think you're wrong and I think you're wrong for these reasons. But a lot of the time is and, and vice versa is like, I want to do this. If he'll, if he thinks I'm wrong and vice versa, I'll say, look, I think you're wrong, but I think you've earned enough respect to be wrong. And you know what? If you're wrong, you're wrong. I'm not going to sit there and go, told you so.
Yeah.
But if it's something I completely disagree with and be like, that's stupid. That's when in both it says, now foot's down. Like, you cannot do that for these reasons. Here's why. If you go ahead and do it anyway. Even after that conversation. Then there's another con that's never happened.
Yeah.
Probably never will.
Which is why it's a successful business.
Yeah. But it's vice versa. Like, I think people reserve the right to go and get things wrong.
Yeah.
And we've, we've done that many, many times. We've done it where we've both thought it was the right decision. We've done it where it's been a 50, 50. It's like, I'm not sure about this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, well, these are the risk factors. This is what we've lost in.
Yeah.
Pursuing that.
But I think that has a lot to do with the relationship between two leaders where one says, hey, I want to do A and the other says, hey, I think there's some problems with A, I'd prefer to do B. Yeah. And in, in a good relationship. He says, no, no, I'm, I have a strong feeling about A. And you go, hey, these are the problems that I see with it. We'll do it.
Just be aware of them.
But now we have risk mitigation strategies.
Right.
Because we've had this conversation and we know, well, maybe I've thought about things that you didn't. Maybe I've put some more weight into the likelihood of those things happening than you did. So at least now we can risk mitigate. We can be aware of that. You know, a problem, a problem foreseen is a problem known.
Right.
And it's easier to deal with than it just blindsiding us. So we can prepare for that and you carry on doing what you intended to do anyway. And I will take the backseat, but I will be prepared to fix those issues if and when they come up.
Yeah.
And that's, that's the perfect relationship.
The best ones, when, you know, we've had conversations like, I want to do this. I'm like, what are you stupid? Like, did you think about this? Oh, no. Yeah, you're right. We shouldn't do that.
Yeah.
And vice versa.
Yeah, totally.
Right. Oh yeah. Okay. That's why it's good to have someone else wears. If it's a one person road and there's. There isn't that, that too, I see. To bounce off.
Yeah.
You're going to make a decision thinking that it's right and not be like.
Yeah.
And I think on that point, mate, I think like it's important that both those people are working towards the same outcome. If, you know, if they're working towards separate outcomes, they never get along. But when they're working towards the same outcome, they can go about the same thing in really different ways conjunctively. Have you ever seen that show Generation Kill? Have you ever seen that?
I've, I've heard of it. I've not watched it.
So it's a true story. It's about the Marine Force Recon, which later became marsoc, which, you know, will, which. So it's the unit sort of pre. His time in that unit. And it's about the invasion into Iraq. It's really good and actually it's very accurate because quite a few people play themselves in it or play other people. Like the main character guy, he's, he's not, he doesn't play himself because they needed a real actor to play it, but he was. Yeah, he's one of the back background characters, but he's there to make sure that he is portrayed correctly. There's a guy in a Fruity Rudy and that's like, he's really Fruity Rudy. He's the, he's the guy.
Yeah.
But there's a part in it where the rsm, so the RSM is the highest ranking enlisted guy. So for when you have a colonel, right, who would run a whole unit, a colonel being really high rank, there's another guy who's a Warrant Officer Class one that like always hangs around with him. And the RSM's job is to look after the boys, right. And the RSM in it is this hard ass, annoying, like everybody hates him. And there's this part where the, the colonel makes a couple of sort of bad decisions and things aren't going that well. And the RSM looks at him and he says, like, do you need me to go and do a haircut check?
Right.
And there's a couple of moments where like, you know, they, they're, they're in Iraq. They're like, it's all going bad. They're having these horrendous times and he's picking on like ridiculous details of their uniform and that kind of stuff. Yeah. And so what it becomes evident at this point is like the rsm, who they all hate, has chosen to, to.
Be the guy that's hating. Yeah, yeah. To take the pressure. Yeah, yeah.
He goes, because they have to love you. They have to. He goes, I don't give battlefield instructions.
Right.
Like I, I just, you know, he fulfills an admin role. They have to love the leader and they have to follow through with what he says. And if they think I'm. If they think they're going to get angry at you, I'll redirect that anger to myself. And it turns out like he's one of the pivot. Like he's one of the most important people in the whole thing. They think he's a pain in the ass. They think that he just causes problem. All the problems that. So calculated and he keeps morale headed in a certain direction. And he chose like, you know, I guess selflessly to be like, I don't. It doesn't matter whether they love or hate me. He's at the end of his career anyway. So like it doesn't affect.
Right.
That's. That's the pinnacle rank. He can't go anywhere else. So he's like, all that matters is I do my job well and them liking me is not necessarily part of my job. There's times that it would be, but in this instance he's like, it's important that they follow you blindly than like me.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that happens a lot. And that's is pretty similar to how our relationship works. There's certain things that like, he can't get involved with because it's going to cause him. Matt's going to get stressed out for that. It's like, okay, I'll deal with these problems then because you are responsible for bringing us an income that goes away. That's a problem for everyone.
Yeah.
So as a shield, it's like, I'll step in here and I'll handle this. But you have to have that in every organization there needs to be those people that are like, fix problems when.
Yeah.
When they occur.
You have the hard decisions. Sorry. And the hard conversations and are prepared to play the bad guy a little bit in order that the machine keeps going forward. For sure. Like, you know, I guess it's like a. Much like a sergeant at arms. Depending on, you know, in, in the army we would call it like the, the RSM or the CSM fills that role. The company sergeant major or the regiment sergeant major. And in bikie gangs they call it the, the sergeant arms. You know, and, and in a lot of workplaces like this, they call it the HR department. You know what I mean? Like, it's the same role where it's like, no, I have to be holding everybody accountable.
Everyone.
Right.
No one likes hr.
Yeah.
But I've never, I've never had any dealings.
I, I just don't want to go to the size where we're going to.
Need one yeah, yeah, we will.
But it's just like, oh, man, I don't want to be able to talk about what we just edited out, have someone sitting there yelling at me. We probably need that.
Yeah, probably.
You listen to the pod. We said some dumb. That we probably shouldn't have said.
Yeah.
Many times.
And I think that's one of the issues with creating content, mate. I think that you walk a fine line between authenticity and saying dumb things. Yeah. And I think that, you know, you say things. The issue is context.
Right.
Yeah.
Like you. You and I can have a conversation about something that we just talked out there, and it would be an ongoing joke, you know, and you deliver punchline once again in here without the context. It's like, I can't believe you would say that.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cancel cultures is running rampant these days. But I want to go back. You mentioned it was. It was Damon you were talking about.
All right.
He's two years younger. No idea about how your unit works.
Yeah, well, I mean, like conceptual like he does, you know, but not at the micro level.
But he's assumably. He studied an officer school.
Yeah. Yeah.
Why not to come in and to be able to step into that leadership.
Yeah.
Is probably studied more strategic battlefield tactics, which doesn't happen. You guys. You guys study the execution of.
Yeah.
Okay. Officer says jump, we figure out how high we need to jump.
Exactly. Right. So they do higher level planning, that sort of stuff.
I mean, my question is like, I would look at that and this is coming. They probably have very strong reasons as to why that happens. You're sitting there as two. I see. I mean, the way I would look at that for our business is like, I wouldn't want to be training someone over here to come in and do that. I would want to offer our guys, particularly probably the two. I see an ascension pathway and the education or whatnot, to be able to step into that role. Because ultimately if you had the same a strategic execution, whatever they. They study, you're always going to be a better person to lead that team purely based on the relationships, the understanding and have been.
Yeah.
On the ground. Like, is that something that happens or it's just. Yeah.
Really.
No, it does. And there's a few reasons why. And it is maybe really specific to military. I'm not sure that it crosses over very well to the corporate world because the reason you can do that. So.
Yeah.
As a. As a enlisted guy, it's kind of like in military there's usually sort of two streams you join as an Officer or an enlisted guy and you can jump, you can go from one to the other.
Yeah.
Now if you're up to the rank of say corporal, like you know, sort of 3 off the bottom or 2 off the bottom depending on how you calculate it, you it's like your service never counted. So there was a guy that I was in with, I was a digger with, he decided he wanted to be an officer and you have to go to the officer school and like, just like people who have just joined the army and want to be an officer, like everything you've done in the past doesn't count for anything. It will help you in being of an officer when you are one, but it doesn't. There's no recognition of your qualifications or anything like that. Once you get to the rank of sergeant and it depends different units, different, you know, armies is like minor variances on this. But once you get to that rank then they go like okay, you have the skill set that we would have trained an officer to be anyway because you're going to be the two I see to one. Once you've been in that rank for at least two years then you can do what they call in Australia as walk where you can change to become an officer, you can become a captain. And the course that you do in order to do that they refer to as a knife and fork course where they teach you the of being an officer.
Right.
Like how to iron uniform and quickly.
Brief version.
Yeah, it's like six weeks of like how to you know, like accelerated officer stuff. But they're like the tactical and the actual like leadership that you've got because you've done all the courses to get to that point and you've actually been doing it. People do that, but not many because the problem is those guys typically not always, but typically don't then progress really very far past the rank of major. So they'll change over straight away and be a captain and then maybe they'll go up one more rank to major. But they're more on the tools people.
Right.
And they very often they don't perform very well as very high ranking officers.
Yeah, okay.
Right.
So they, Yeah, I thought it would have been one or two reasons. One, the bigger people see you as either too valuable to. They can be that those or they just see as dumb grunts.
Yeah, it's, it's really, it's more that they're tactical level people and there's lots of reasons. But to progress, you know, past colonel, it's very rare that you get A guy who joined as a private soldier.
Okay.
And goes to general all the way through the ranks that it's so incredibly rare. It can happen. In fact, one of my good friends in, in the States. Is that right?
Yeah.
But it's very, very rare. More often if you're going to go through the ranks of, you know, the enlisted guys and then change over to be an officer, you're only going to make it to like a third officer, like a major, because that's kind of where your skill set is.
A skill set issue.
Yeah, well, and it's like that's where you kind of top out because beyond that it's all political like nonsense. And, and the guys who are at the bottom, they don't perform well at that.
They also majority of them would probably see that as I don't want to be in that exact landscape because it's not me. And I would probably see that as I don't want to be in that exact landscape because it's not me and.
Exactly.
Complete different cultures, right?
Totally. So that's one of the reasons. And then of, you know, it's not a good use of their, you know, what happens in militaries as well and I'm sure it's in corporate space space as well as that. It's a period. Exactly.
Completely different cultures, right?
Totally. So that's one of the reasons. And then of, you know, it's not a good use of their, you know, what happens in militaries as well, and I'm sure it's in corporate space as well, is that it's a pyramid scheme. And so in order for to continue growing up, the pyramid people have to fall off.
Yeah.
Right.
And so there's people who do want to push up because they want to get to the top of the pyramid. And then if you're not, if you don't really, really want to get there and you're happy in a more like tactical command level, major kind of level, it's very easy to stay there. The other thing is as well within Australian Army, I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but colonels are on a renewable contract. So you know, in the army, so long as you're performing adequately, checking the state forever.
Right.
But colonels, they can say to you, hey man, there's just no job for you. Like you're out because there just is no job. Right.
Like what's like a really off topic, but it's interesting. He says nothing to do with sales. It's purely for my own selfish Understanding scheme.
And so in order for. To continue growing up the pyramid, people have to fall off.
So deal with it, guys. Career progression, like, they're going to move up in. You know, obviously they want to become captains, commanders, whatnot. Those guys that are not the grunts. Forgive me if I'm using the wrong vernacular, like yourself, I would consider. You guys would have been grunts. Right? That's what you.
Yeah, well, grunt usually is referred to as like, infantry.
Infantry.
Okay. Yeah.
So if you guys are the more execution that strategy.
Yep, yep.
Coming out of the army, there's no real major career path there. But for those guys that the officers.
Yeah.
There's probably like, you know, they said they're looking after their career, whether that's in the army or externally. Those are the ones that are probably more likely to be recruited from say, like a big bank, a law firm, to come in and say, hey, we want you to come and run teams. You've done that before.
Yeah.
Is that. Am I right on the ball?
Yeah, yeah.
And they do terribly normally.
Right.
So.
Yeah, well, because the thing is. Well, no, there's no hammer. See, the thing is, in the army, like, there's a rank structure and that those. It exists as, you know, you can punish the people below you significantly. And that's why the army can get.
Away with this, right?
Well, not just get away with it. You're meant to. So. So, like, I only one time in my whole career use the army discipline system correctly.
Right.
Like every. You know, it's very rare that anybody does that now. I won't bother with the details. Kind of boring anyway. But I said to this guy, and he was a friend, and I said, hey, man, I have to charge you.
Yeah, right.
So, like, we're gonna go through the whole formal proceedings because I told you not to do something.
I bet it was Tinder.
But he was a good friend and he was a good dude, but I told him not to do something, and he did. And I was like, I know you took a calculated risk, and in your position, I may have even made the same decision.
But.
But the only reason this whole system works is because you have to do what I say, and you didn't. And so now I have to go through these channels and punish you. And like, he lost three days pay and had to work, you know, like, so there's. There's things to do. So you have this whip. And that's why the military works, is because even when you get people who are bad leaders and they're at their job and all these things, the structure, you just have to do it that you're told. You just have to. That's the way it goes.
Right.
And I've had, over my career in the military, I've had plenty of funny conversations with people about that. Like, you know, I had a guy that was, like, exceptionally rude to me one day, he was much higher ranked than me, and I shut the door on him and I said, hey, I'm gonna do what you said, because I have to.
Right.
Like, but I don't want to.
I said, if you speak to me like that again, I'll smash your head in.
Right.
Because it's totally unnecessary.
Right.
So me and you will have, like. And I will take the punishment for that when I do it, but it's totally unnecessary. You don't have to speak to me that way. I have to do what you're telling me to do. It's as simple as that.
Right.
So anyway, that doesn't exist in the corporate world.
Right.
And. And it's a lot smashed on his face. Well, but even in the military, it's very hard to do that these days. But that's where I see a lot of people leaving the army or, you know, any, you know, officers in a lot of spaces. They don't have the whip, they don't have the compulsion, they don't have the way to say to people like, you must. Beyond, like, you know, you could fire someone. And even then, that's not easy to do.
Right.
Especially, like, if people are proper employees. Yeah. So that's, I think, where a lot of people kind of fall over. And we talk in the army quite a lot about respecting the rank, not the man. So, like, I could really dislike you, but I see those chevrons on you, and I go, well, I. I have no respect for you as a person.
But you've done something right to be in the position where you've been given that.
Yeah.
Therefore.
So I'll do what you say.
Right.
And I think that's one of the things that. That I don't see in the civilian world.
Right.
So there is no assumption that, like, you're the director of the company. Well, I can start a company now and become the director of a company, and by this afternoon I've got the paperwork. And I, too. Exactly.
Yeah.
So it doesn't dislike you, but I see those chevrons on you, and I go, well, I. I have no respect for you as a. That's where it falls over. And I think that's the big difference That I see in that, like.
Yeah.
To actually person.
But you've done something right to be in the position where you've been given that.
And therefore. So I'll do what you say.
Right.
Be relevant to this conversation is that I think that in. More in the civilian. And I think that's one of the things that I don't see in the civilian world.
Right.
So there is no assumption that like, you're the director of the company. Well, I can start a company now and become the director of the. In world. And in the military world, you really. To be a leader, you need to be an effective leader because people can just go get. I'm not doing that.
Right.
And you have very little recourse. Whereas in the military, people say that to you like, oh, okay, well, you're not getting paid. Like, I can stop your pay. I can put you in jail.
Yeah.
Like a company. And by this afternoon I've got the paperwork and I too.
Yeah.
So it doesn't. That's where it falls over. And I think that's the big difference that I see in that. Like.
Yeah.
To actually just being one rank higher than you. I can. If I go through the right paperwork and you've done all the right things, like I can put you in jail. So like, let's. That's what avoids that system. But as a civilian, people can just be like, be relevant to a couple this conversation is that I think that in. More in the civilian world than in the military world, you really. To be a leader, you need to be an effective leader because people can just go get. I'm not doing that.
Right.
And, And. And you have very little recourse. Whereas in the military, people say that to you like, oh, okay, well, you're not getting paid. Like, I can stop your pay. I can put you in jail. Yeah. Like just being one rank higher than you. I can. If I go through the right paperwork and you've done all the right things, like I can put you in jail. So like let's. That's what avoids that system. But as a civilian, people can just be like, no, I'm not doing that.
And I think being a leadership is essentially just respect.
Yeah, right.
You don't have respect from people. You're not a leader. But if you are, you never get into that position where you have to. Right. You shouldn't. I mean, occasionally, maybe one guy could just be a dick. Bound to happen. Where you're just like, oh, more. I'm gonna have to pull rank on him. But you know, if Your recruitment's right, your culture's right. That person doesn't stick around anyway.
Yeah, exactly.
So we've never had an issue with that where we've ever had to unless that person was getting fired. And for whatever reason, legally, we couldn't do it without ticking a few boxes because they were an employee as opposed to a contractor.
Yeah.
That's interesting. Like, I'm curious, like, some of the exercises that you guys do in that platoon to, you know, similar cultures, I feel, at least.
What.
From side conversations people have mentioned, like, Ben and that Tyndall. Not even that Tindall works for us, but he's like, oh, you know, kind of feels like being in the unit. You know, it kind of feels like that's what you guys have built with. With your stuff. What are, like, some of the things that they've done selectively or unintentionally, that you feel that. You know, because the way that you guys talk about it, all those guys that like family to you.
Yeah.
How have you. Or how has the military structured it so that that occurs?
Yeah, that's a great question. And with the. With that crew of dudes, I kind of don't know how that happened.
Because you thoroughly disliked Matt when I first met.
Right?
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Understandable. Like, I get it.
Yeah.
Well, we were young. I just got back from Afghanistan. Like, literally got home, and he was at my house, and I was like.
I was like, who is your wife?
But, like, him and Tinder would become friends while I was gone. He got to the unit while I was overseas.
Yeah.
And I rock up.
I'm like, who is this dude? And he's. He had that.
Yeah.
And his voice was so annoying because he was still very American accent, but he had this gross mole. Like, now he sounds much more Australian than. Than. But his accent used to be so different. And it was this annoying melting pot accident. And I was just like, who is this guy? And anyway, I love him. He's my best friend. But, like, he. I did not enjoy his company at all. But then you work together.
Yeah.
Although we didn't ever really work together very much, which is probably why we get along.
Right.
But I think it's just the reason a lot of those guys get along so well is they're. They're just different iterations of each other. Right. So it's the. It's the same. If you like yourself, you'll like those guys because it attracts the same people.
Yeah.
And it's funny. Like, we very strong. Well, I mean, I don't know whether Matt did, but it was part of my, my plans and my structure to bring this up is that through our social network. I wanted to make it very, very clear like how our culture is, the type of people that we have in the company, what those values are, what we set as standards and just harp it in, harp it in, harp it in. This is what we do here, this is why we do it. This is. If you want to get this, if you want help to get to here, here, here, this is the place for you. Purely for the purpose that all of a sudden we started attracting people that fitted. Yeah. For what we wanted. In the same way that, like yourself, you like the people around you and because of that we, we don't get shit kickers that are apply. Maybe not as many as what we used to. It's not just random dudes looking for a job. I mean they do if they haven't seen who we are, but they usually don't.
Yeah, yeah.
All of our applications come from, you know, watching the content going, those guys are killing it. I want to go work there. And because of that there's only people that fit the same standards that we want. We only get guys that go, I want to be good. I want you to make me here. I still to this day, and probably will for the foreseeable future, every single employee, I have nothing to do with hiring process but as soon as someone comes on and they come into the company, they have to meet with me once they've gone through all the onboarding one on one, just so I can have a conversation with them, them y and say, hey, you know, this is not formal. Just want to give you the time. And no matter how big we get, we're going to give every individual the time because you've probably got questions you want to ask. And it's really funny that we get a lot of the particularly younger kids, they're shell shocked. They're like, oh, I can't believe I get to talk to you.
Yeah.
It's like, why just a person? Yeah, I like beer and blow drill. Same as you're like, oh, really? Like pinching themselves. I'm like, yeah, is there anything you want to, to talk about? And it's always the same thing, is like, how do I get the most out of this opportunity? Yeah, how do I progress? What should I focus on? Yeah, it's like, yeah, it's interesting.
And no one asked what kind of beer.
Yeah, we, we don't get guys on there that are just going how do I do the least amount possible to get a result? It's like, that's just the wrong. Wrong question.
It's such a cliche, but I think one of the things you hear a lot in the military is, like, the standard you accept is the standard you set it.
Yeah.
And I think that's one of the things that I notice here is that that's what's carried over from a lot of the. Like, from back of the unit.
Yeah.
Is that guys hold each other to a high standard and you have fun and you around and you can be friends, but if someone does bad work.
It'S like, yeah, okay, now I gotta talk.
Yeah.
And if, like, if some. If Matt says to me, like, hey, you're underperforming. Like, I. I love him and he loves me. I know it.
Right.
So, like, if. If I get critical feedback, it's because it's to grow. It's. It's not. Not to cut me down.
Yeah.
There's no. There's. There's nothing to gain in that. Like, he's not trying to inflate his own ego. And not just with me, like, you know, because we are friends, but with everybody I see around, if he.
If.
If someone gets bad feedback, it's because they've done poorly, not because they want to be belittled or, you know, it's not trying to make himself feel big by making others feel small.
Yeah.
Never.
We've almost had problems with that where we haven't given enough critical feedback to our guys. Right. It's something that we've acknowledged recently because we've made so many changes and we had some of our guys being left with, what did I do do wrong? Because you've moved me around and we've drawn it on. You guys are killing it and doing a great job. But we're going to move you over here now. And for those guys, it's, oh, what did I do wrong? To get moved whilst we're telling them, you're doing a great job, but with the people that we attract, they're the same people. Like, they are leaders. They want that accountability.
Yeah.
And for me, if you say, I'm going to put you over here, I'll be like, wow, there has to be a reason for that, you know, so what could I do better here so that doesn't happen? And we've just recently come to the realization that whilst these guys are killing it, we continuously have to give them that critical feedback.
Yeah.
Because they're dying for, like, where do I get Better? How do I get better? Where do I put the reps in? I'm putting reps in many. Am I putting them in the right place? And, yeah, it's funny, like, with those guys, you just. You have to give them what they need, because if that ties into. And that's part of recognizing that as leadership is like, this guy's not getting what he needs to be 100% confident. So if I have a guy operating at 90%, four guys operating, and that's amazing. Take it every day of the week. And that's normal for most regular people. But those guys that are operating at 90%, if they're the ones that want to be at 100, it'll never be good enough. And we have to continuously find ways to. To progress them.
Yeah.
Move them out of that IC role into the leadership roles and find other ways around that. And it's getting all of those guys confident. It makes the growth of the company so quick because they'll do things that you don't expect them to do. They'll take initiative over here. They'll come to us when they've got problems, whereas if they're not confident, they're not sure if I'm making the right decision here. So we'll hesitate on making one which could shoot us in the foot. Yeah, I think it's super important. Did you guys find that, like, with the individuals in the unit?
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. So I think. I don't know if you guys do it here, but, you know, one thing that the army does is formal reporting every year, at a minimum every year, usually twice. Where, you know, it's not like, hey, you're doing a good job, or, hey, you need to pick things up. It's like, here is a piece of paper.
Yeah.
That you have, like, we have listed everything that you did well and things that you did poorly. And we're going to go through this together. You can give feedback. There's a place on here where you can write things and you can rebut this if you want. So it's on record that you don't accept this as being, like, true. Whatever you want, you can refute it, but we're both going to sign it at the end, and that's going in your personal file, and you know where you stand. And I think as much as a giant pain in the ass that is to do, like, administratively, you know, I've written those reports. It's a giant pain in the ass. It takes a big chunk of time. It's fantastic. Because you know where you stand.
Right.
And then you can pull that out later and go, yeah. When you. When. When you are overlooked or something happens, you can say like, hey, like, I've got this report that says I'm doing well and I'm not being rewarded. So you need to amend. You need to. My next reporting needs to show that to me because I don't know what I can do.
Right.
And we can demonstrate. I don't know, because you haven't given me that feedback. Or you can. It can have that feedback on there. And then when you don't get the job that you wanted or the promotion. Yeah, whatever. You go, well, here it is. I know why.
Right.
Okay.
I think if there's like, one thing that we can give you guys to take away is how I'd handle that conversation. Right. And for the guys listening, whether you business or in sales, you know that whoever's looking after you is in. Is going to be able to get you to where you want to be based on the way that they handle that conversation around where you need to be better. And the way that. That I always bridge it with the guys is getting a full understanding of where they want to be. Right. And let's just say they're not performing. You know, almost do that critique sandwich thing, which I think is pretty. Need something softened to hear it.
Yeah.
You're probably not the guy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So usually in those conversations, like, it starts off being like, you know, I think you've been great. Like, these are the things that you're killing it on. This is what we're super impressed with. This is what we want to see you continue. Like, it doesn't need any work here. What does need work and what needs address is I feel like you've dropped the ball in this area or this particular area isn't meeting expectations. Right. So my question to you is, like, what have. You know, you always take responsibility. What is it that I haven't given you for you to be able to be the best in this area?
Yeah.
And what is it that you need? And let's acknowledge that that's not good enough. And based on where you want to be, you want to be here. This has to be fixed for you to move into that position. Like, you cannot move into that role if this is another level that's required. So the question is, like, where is the skill set gap? And I need to understand what part is missing. Where are we failing in that so that we can give you the skill set to move you into that ultimate goal of what you want, then usually we break down where that is. Put in a plan to be like, okay, well maybe you need some one on one time, maybe we need to meet on a monthly basis to go through and give you the skill to be able to make those decisions. It's, it's a flawless process.
Yeah.
People, they get the hard advice. You're not angry at them for doing it because why should you be? Unless they majorly, then you have every right to be, of course. But it always has to be a progression. If someone wants to be here and wants to be there, they're always going to follow your advice. They're always going to follow your leadership if you give them the action steps to get to where they want to be.
Yeah, I agree, man.
So for the entrepreneurs, if you've got sales guys that aren't performing, take them through that process. It could be something that they don't understand the script, they don't understand their product. You need to figure out where that gap is and then fill it. And usually if you have those hard conversations, you give them the steps they need to be to get to that sales manager or whatnot. It's usually just a matter of time if you put the right process in place.
Yeah, totally. I agree. And it's a. You're building the team rather than like degrading it. That, that's, that's really what I think leadership comes down to.
We've always had those bosses where we just thought were we're terrible and never listened to them.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Sounds like the perfect place to wrap it up.
It does. Thank you guys for listening. Pat, you want to lead out the outro?
Yeah. Hey, thanks for watching. Slash listening. If you're on, if you're listening on a podcast platform, one of the things it's actually, actually, you know, surprisingly necessary is reviews on podcast platforms. So if you could jump in if you like this kind of stuff, if you like where we're going with the podcast, please write it down, let people know, helps with the algorithm, lets other people find information that you're finding helpful. The other one is on YouTube. If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like and subscribe and all that kind of stuff.
Comment, absolutely.
Comment all those things and not just to help out with the algorithm, but to create a conversation, let us know if we're on the right track and we can, can, you know, steer and guide the ship in accordance with what people want to hear.
Yeah, I mean we, we went on a few tangents there, funnily enough, is exactly what happens with Matt.
Right.
That's podcast life.
But if you guys found, like, let us know in the comments section what you found valuable. And if there is an overwhelming response to something specific, then we're happy to do a YouTube video to elaborate on that and go into more detail than just do this chat. Really sounds good. Thanks, guys. See ya.
Let me just sound.
No comment.
Me.
And don't get. I need to get more concise.
Yeah, maybe. I think the only thing I was worried about last time is just try and stay consistent from the microphone. Like, from a technical. Yeah, like, and just bring it with you. You know, if you want to change positions, just bring it with you.
