Interview with Michael Currie, Founder & CEO of Fling

Welcome to ChainTech, the show and podcast focusing on the latest trends in supply chain, procurement, and logistics technology. My name is Max Henry from the Global Supply Chain Council, and together with my co-host and special guest, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in supply chain. From early stage to unicorns, And from cutting-edge technology to the people using it to help drive more innovative, agile, and resilient supply chains around the world. This is ChainTech. Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of ChainTech. I'm your host, Max Henry, from the Global Supply Chain Council. Very pleased to have you all. Thanks again for joining us on this new episode of the show. as we continue to host some of the most interesting chain tech founders and discuss the rapid rise of supply chain logistics and procurement technology around the world. As we jump into today's conversation, I also want to make sure that you're aware of the ChainTech platform that we are managing. You can check it out on chaintech.net. And you also, if you're interested to listen to some of the previous episodes of our interviews, you can go to chaintech.show. Today, I'm very pleased and excited to have Michael Curry, who's the founder and CEO of Fling. Hi, Michael, how are you?

Hi, Max, thanks for having me. I'm doing very well here.

Okay, so as you know, we usually like to start our interview with a bit more information about your background. Maybe take us through, you know, where you come from and, you know, what kind of studies did you have, where did you grow up, and just start with the early age of your career, you know, before you arrived in Asia.

Sure. So as you may hear from my voice, I'm Canadian or from North America, but I'm Canadian. I went to the University of Waterloo for mathematics and began my career as a financial software developer. So for about 10 years, and subsequent to that, joined an international research group called OpenWorm, whose goal was to model the brain of a model organism called C. elegans. And that's what got me really into artificial intelligence and that field. And that was very exciting to work on that project. And subsequent to that, really wanted to change my venue where I was located, and I'd never been to Asia. And so, about 7 years ago, came to to Asia to join another company, an e-learning company, but ended up founding my own company here in a place where I am not from and where I don't understand the culture necessarily. But it was a very exciting experience and I really have found that I just love the people of Asia and the experience of running a business here. So, that's where I've been for the last 7 years.

So, you're based in Bangkok. Why did you actually choose Bangkok to, you know, start your business initially?

Well, frankly, I already, I was already here having worked at a different company. So, I'd already had a familiarity with the people and the country of Thailand. So, it made sense to continue to be here. I think various countries in ASEAN would've been equally or even more appropriate for a supply chain AI business like what we have now. But it's been fortunate, I think, to be here in Bangkok for our operations because there's so many corporate headquarters here right in Bangkok. So, the whole country of Thailand, which is 70 million people, is basically directed by this one city here, Bangkok. And so, we're able to efficiently conduct our business here. And I think it's a very digitally savvy country as well. So, a lot of excitement about new technology, innovation. And for that reason as well, I think it's a great place to be. And if we compare this to countries like Singapore, which is obviously the leader in the region, there's really, frankly, a lot of competition in every dimension, every aspect of artificial intelligence, or in our case, we'll talk about this in a moment, we use drones. And with the amount of competition in that compressed space there, we found, I think, that it's actually quite nice to be in a place like Thailand where there's less of that and more opportunity to expand.

So, what motivated you to start your company, Efrain?

Well, I can briefly tell you our initial idea, which is no longer at all what we do. I was stuck in traffic in Bangkok and saw the birds flying above, and I thought, well, why can't we use the 3 dimensions of the city to deliver goods and packages and a million food deliveries per day in Bangkok? Surely there's scope for introducing the drone delivery that 6 or 7 years ago we were seeing just starting in countries like in America and with Zipline in Africa. And it seemed like that's a real growth area that we could target. So, that was the initial concept of Fling, which is why it's called Fling, to throw something in the air, fling. And we actually got the first permission from the government to use drones for package delivery. I think ultimately in the analysis, we were very early for this. And I think even now, if a company was to try to do drone delivery in Thailand specifically, they would find themselves to be pretty early. So basically the regulation makes it difficult to scale the business. We're seeing at this point in America and a few other jurisdictions, they're starting to allow larger scale services, but I think Asien is going to be a follower and not a leader with that. But for Fling, we certainly are proud of our heritage as this pioneer in that field. And what we ended up experiencing partway through that journey was our customers, or prospective customers, I should say, were meeting us at events and saying, hey, could you help us in the warehouse? So we don't really want you to do drone delivery. That's— we can't— you know, handle that right now, but could you help us with inspection of our warehouse with maybe your drones? Could you help us with that? And that's what set us off with our pivot and our, I think, big success now with what we're doing.

So before we talk about the new focus that you have with Flaying, you mentioned a well-known company called Zipline, which has been doing extremely well in Africa, for example. Why do you think the concept works in places like Africa and not in Asia? Because obviously Zipline has been doing a lot of great stuff when it comes to delivering medicines and blood in those countries in Africa, in more countryside and rural area. Does that concept, you know, it will not work in places like in Asia, in Southeast Asia?

Well, I'd say there's 2 things you need for a drone delivery business to succeed in this these early days and certainly over the past 7 years, even earlier days. And those 2 things are some kind of compliant regulatory authority that's willing to let you do the service. And here in Thailand, we were able to get some small-scale permission to do some small-scale deliveries. For example, we received permission for beach deliveries in Pattaya. So we were able to deliver from one beach starting point to a few condominiums and hotels, which we're quite proud of. It took us years to get this permission, and it was an enormous effort on our team to be able to make that happen. But we did, and we should thank the government here for allowing that. That's fantastic. But I think in Zipline's case, they were able to do something at a larger scope, which is rural deliveries of blood. And the second thing that is crucial for a drone delivery company is cash, because none of these companies are making money even today, for sure. and they're all losing massive amounts of money. Wing from Google, for example, I'm sure they've put in billions and billions of dollars to that enterprise, or at least hundreds of millions for sure. And with Zipline, that blood delivery service, which grabs the headlines and gave them their multibillion-dollar valuation now, surely, there's not that much money to be had in delivering blood to rural poor women in Rwanda. That's, I don't think, a massive source of revenue. It's obviously a fantastic service. It's basically a charity, essentially. So, you're going to have to, as the owner of Zipline, you're going to have to find a way to fund that. And obviously, they've been very successful as salespeople to their investors to be able to convince them to give them all the funding that they needed to do that. So, I suppose, In the context of drone delivery, there have been all kinds of small companies trying to make it happen. What has distinguished Zipline is their fantastic ability to fundraise.

Yeah. So in one sentence, can you tell us what Fling is doing today?

Okay. So Max, what we ended up doing was listening to those prospective customers and pivoting. And so what we do now is we are a digital twin supply chain SaaS enterprise. We deploy generative AI to automate stock checking in warehouses.

Okay. And what problem are you solving in the existing warehouse? Because some of them have already existing systems. So using drones, how are you helping them to get more benefits?

Right. So the problem warehouses face is that many warehouses obviously are very large. They have to perform a stock check, whether it's required by government or whether required by the product owners if they're a third-party logistic warehouse. And this has to be performed certainly annually, sometimes quarterly, and also for cycle counting daily. And this process is a process that takes a long time. It's costly because they have to pay people to do it and allocate their material handling equipment to do it. It's difficult to achieve accuracy because you're asking employees to do a highly monotonous task, potentially with a significant turnover in the people that are doing that task. So maintaining accuracy and consistency of the process is a big challenge. It's also potentially unsafe. We're seeing a huge trend in the world right now where the major brands are requiring that workers not go on high heights, be placed on material handling equipment to scan barcodes. I've heard horror stories in the past of people actually standing on the tines of the forklifts, which I think doesn't happen too much anymore. I haven't witnessed that, but— Anyway, there's a safety issue there. So all those things are highly motivating to warehouses to find a way to automate this. Of course, automation being something they're always looking for. This is one of the many tasks that they're looking to automate in the warehouse, and this is what we specialize in.

So how does that work? You are providing a solution which includes a drone and probably a launching base and a system of a drone will fly between the racks and just scan every— you can do a count by pallet. Rod, tell us a little bit more about how it works here.

Sure. So first, we map the warehouse and we have a digital twin of the entire facility where everything is located. And with that map, we're able to have the drones fly autonomously inside the warehouse. So the worker or our team, depending on the operation, will press a single button and the drone will fly its mission along the aisle, land, and then that information will get uploaded from the edge device there onto our cloud service and analyzed and processed into a report. So that report shows all the information they might need for comparing their warehouse management system, WMS record with what is actually in the warehouse. And that includes information like how many boxes are stored in the pallet? Is the pallet a partial or a full pallet? Is there some defect or spoilage going on? Obviously, what's on the label there. So tracking things like the SKU, the pack ID, other information there as well. So it's, it's not only that we make the process faster and therefore cheaper, Max, but it's also that we have a result that includes images of each pallet, reconstructed box counts, and other audit data which can be used for later verification. So there's no need to perform a second manual count, which really adds to that manual requirement. So what we've seen in our actual operations with this system is that Stock checking, which may have previously required 80 to 100 people and 10 reach trucks over 2 or 3 days, we can accomplish that with the Fling AI system over just a few hours with as few as 5 people.

So using AI, is your camera, your drone capable of counting the number of boxes on the pallet? And you mentioned also the defects. So if there are some cartons which are broken or damaged, your AI tool will be able to recognize them and maybe send some alerts and notify the operators, right?

Right. So I like to think that Fling has sort of 2 secret sauces. One is the drone autonomy software, which allows the drone to fly with one push of a button. And the other is our ability to box count from the images that we collect. So this is certainly a non-trivial thing that's taken us a long time to develop. Using a whole variety of object detection models and other generative AI techniques actually to perform a 3-dimensional reconstruction of that pallet and to figure out how many boxes are there. Because obviously we're only able to see the front and maybe a bit of the top. But from that information, we're able to, just like a human can, make some assumptions about what would be stored behind and count the number of boxes.

Yeah. What kind of competition do you have with this kind of tool? Do you see any vendors, especially coming from bigger tech companies, providing this kind of solution in Asia and more particularly in Thailand?

Well, we certainly see on a global level, which I can maybe talk about, on the global level, we certainly see about 5 5 to 10 competitors or companies that are offering stock shake automation services. Some are doing services using drones, and you can certainly look up those names. Most of them are concentrated in Europe or North America. And we also see some companies that are offering a service that will attach a camera to a reach truck so you can perform a stock check there. What we've heard of from our customers is that that's nice to have a camera on the reach truck. It does save the worker from having to go up to the high heights, but it's not a full automation like what the drone offers where it can save even more labor and even more time. So certainly with the system being fully baked as it is with Fling, we were able to, I think, quite effectively compete with the reach truck-based systems. And basically, one of the big advantages I think of our system is that we use off-the-shelf commodity drones. So we generally use DJI drones, which is a company most of you have probably heard of, which is a Chinese drone manufacturer that has about 90% market share on the consumer side, I think 95% on the enterprise side, perhaps 90%. And As a result, wherever that warehouse happens to be, and we're certainly not only in Thailand at this point, with that global penetration, we don't have any problem with hardware distribution. I think some of these other competitors, they use proprietary drone systems which have to be certified in each country and spare parts and other problems with distributing a piece of hardware across international borders. Thankfully, that's something we don't have to worry about because we have a pure software solution.

Which market are you targeting with this solution? Are you aiming at serving that technology towards the 3PLs, which are operating their own warehouse, or are you more interested in going after the end-user shippers or some of the manufacturers or brand owners who have their own DDCs and facilities?

So, yeah. So I should say that my experience with the warehousing industry, what I, what I certainly see is that the 3PL companies are highly motivated to introduce automation innovation in their warehouses because they're in an extremely competitive situation. Every time a warehouse management contract comes up for renewal, I see Of course, I'm not working for a 3PL, but I can see the pressure that they're under to keep their prices low while still maintaining the margins that they need to operate and also to introduce something different so they can differentiate themselves. Because not only are they competing against other 3PLs, but here in Thailand at least, we're also seeing that product owners are just trying to internalize the service for themselves and run it run it themselves. And so, I see the pressure that they're under to justify the service that they're offering. And this is where I see that on top of all the benefits that I've already described for having a stock check automation, it's also just nice to be able to say, look, we're doing something that's new and we're at the vanguard here. So, I think that's very helpful. I would say 3PLs are certainly the most eager customers that we have, but that we don't limit ourselves to them only.

How do you market your solutions and get your customers today in Thailand and the rest of Asia?

So I think, like any software as a service B2B type company, we rely heavily on inbound leads. I think it's very hard for us to do an entirely cold interaction where we just approach somebody and say, hey, do you want to do automation for your stock checking? Because they may not be at the right stage in their, you know, decision-making process. It may not make sense for them if their budget's already been allocated for other things. So generally, it's going to be someone in a room that's saying, hey, could we do something with automating our stock checking? And then, and then they have some analyst go and Google that topic. or Bing that topic, and, and then our name will come up. So certainly we focus on SEO and putting ourselves out there like on podcasts like yourselves. And by doing that, we're able to kind of stay in the conversation. And when, when they think of automation, hopefully the next thing that comes into their heads is Fling.

Do you see any partnership opportunities with WMS vendors? in pushing your solution? Have you explored that? And do you think that the big WMS vendors like, you know, the Infor or the Blue Yonder or the Oracle or SAP are interested in partnering with you?

So, we definitely do not think of ourselves as competitors of a WMS for sure. We are a function that works together with a WMS. And in fact, it's basically a prerequisite to use our system that the warehouse has to be structured sufficiently that it's using a WMS for sure. If you can believe, Max, we've certainly been in warehouses here in Thailand where they don't even use a WMS. But that's definitely an area that we're actively working in is exploring partnerships in that area. I think for our system to be deployed globally, we've had to rely on distributors as well because there's some engineering expertise required to initially set it up and to provide support. So if there's a company that thinks that they're capable of supporting a solution, like perhaps they're already supporting AGVs or other automation solutions in a country that's either here in this region or elsewhere, we're very happy to have conversations with them because it's through those distributor relationships that we're able to to have the kind of expansion that we've been seeing so far.

What is your revenue model like right now?

So we charge for the system as a service. So it's a rental fee for both the hardware and the platform access. So it's actually a very fast return on investment or payback period for our customers, because they pay monthly for the service and can quickly see the return on that. I think the statistic for AS/RS systems in our industry, the payback period is on the order of 5 or more years before a system can pay for itself, or I've heard even 10 years for very sophisticated AS/RS systems. For us, if the warehouse it doesn't think it can afford that level of automation, this is a great halfway house where you're still getting a significant benefit of automation and the payback period can be definitely less than a year.

Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Let's go back a little bit on your— on the company and Fling. And I just wanted to understand when you started the company, did you actually bootstrap the business? Did you raise capital? And what is your current funding stage right now?

So we did receive funding from— we're VC-backed, so we do have funding from a VC here in Thailand called True Incube, which is the CVC of True Corporation, the large telecommunication company here in Thailand. So that's public information that people can look up. We have received other private placement funding and also significant funding from government grants as well. So, we're quite happy with the funding that we've been able to receive here. I think just generally with startups, the standard story that we hear in Thailand here is that it's a big, a very challenging funding environment for startups, especially seed-stage startups to find significant venture funding. So, I think my message to founders who might be looking for funding in Thailand specifically would be to look for government grants unless you have significant traction already because they're really looking for businesses that already have significant traction. You're not going to be able to do an American-style startup with no revenue for years and years. So, you can't pull a Palantir and, you know, have no revenue for 10 years and be funded. here in Asia. The investors here in Asia are very serious about profitability.

And are you currently looking for next round or?

So we're always happy to have conversations with investors. So certainly we keep an eye on our competitors. We see that one of our biggest ones in America has just been raising monster rounds after rounds. So certainly happy to have conversations with people who think that that the Asian market is really ready for this kind of system to be deployed even faster than we've been able to achieve already with our traction.

Tell us a little bit about your team that you have. Do you have everyone in Bangkok or do you also outsource to different people across Asia for developing your solutions?

So we do have most of our team here in Bangkok, especially our AI team. We also have through engineering partner, our drone autonomy engineering team is in Berlin, Germany. So that's the distribution of our team right now. We also have through Singapore, our sales team that is really pushing to distribute the system outside. So I think we've, through happenstance perhaps, come upon a, or found a a very effective way to, uh, to run a business here, which is in Bangkok. It's a very, um, popular place to be. So we have, uh, a very easy time recruiting, uh, uh, most people to come here. They, they're excited to, to work in Bangkok and to live in Bangkok. So it's been no problem recruiting, uh, foreign people to come here and, and work or, or do internships. We have, uh, 3 interns from Princeton coming, uh, uh, this summer, for example. I'm excited to see them and And yet with the, from my perspective as the owner, the cost of running a business here in Thailand is relatively low and able to deploy that system as an export service outside of Thailand makes it very effective.

Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned earlier the investment environment, which is getting tougher. And I was curious to understand, you know, what does the startup scene look like in Bangkok? And, you know, and you focusing logistics. Do you actually know and meet other founders who are also focusing on logistic technology in Thailand? Do you know them? Do you get together on a regular basis?

There are startup events. I do certainly go to events. I know, Max, you're French. So there's La French Tech here in Thailand. And for some reason, I haven't figured out why, the French expats are just really killing it here in Thailand when it comes to events and founding companies. There are, don't ask me to name names because I can't put it in my head so quickly, but there's many startups founded by French expats here in Thailand and the event scene is fantastic there. So I would encourage anyone to join the La French Tech events and the scene for startups here socially is, I think, quite good. In terms of actual funding, the main story you'll always hear is it's dominated by corporate venture capital. So the big corporates, banks, telcos, state enterprises like PTT and others, they have kind of stepped into the funding vacuum that basically exists here for funding and try to make strategic investments in companies. But it's a bit distorting because they have their own motivations, of course. And so, it's hard to run a startup with your own strategy and what you want to do without trying to sort of conform it and meld it to some objective that a CVC might have. Now, there was a bit of a fad with CVCs running batches and funding a lot of seed-stage companies about 5 or 6 years ago. And in fact, Fling was a part of that wave. And most of those companies no longer exist. And these days, I think CVCs have soured on seed-stage investing and are basically mostly doing Series A, B, and beyond, or also joining joining rounds for investments outside of Thailand. And I think that, that is again putting a lot of pressure on founders here in Thailand that want to receive funding to initially start their businesses.

And do you meet other logistic tech founders? Do you see a lot of interesting companies in the space of logistics and warehousing technology? Popping up in Thailand?

Yeah, maybe I can drop a name of my buddy. APX Group, I think, is really killing it. I think they're about to announce another round. Maybe I shouldn't say anything about that, but they're founded by my friend, Uwe. They're doing a freight network here where they have their own warehouses and they're able to use trucks that would be coming back from the provinces empty, but they'll use their network to put pallets that would otherwise have to be paying a lot of money for delivery and use up that spare space for delivering. And anyway, that idea is fantastic. They already have great revenue traction and they've been able to receive significant funding from VCs. So, I think if you have the right idea, then the funding is there. But you really do have to have fantastic traction. I think Yue's already exited from startups in the past, so he has a great track record. So I think that's helped him as well with funding. So I absolutely do see other supply chain startup founders here socially, and there's a bit of a scene here. But certainly, I've enjoyed joining the sessions that you run, Max. with the Supply Chain Council and, and your monthly meetup events. That's really helpful because I think any one country here in ASEAN is going to be too small. I think we want to think of it as a, as a regional marketplace. And so it's nice to, to have that regional experience and not just a domestic one.

Exactly. What is your biggest challenge as a founder right now? What keeps you awake at night and or give you a headache on a daily basis?

That's a great question. I mean, there's, of course, so many different challenges, but—

What's the biggest one?

What's the biggest one? What's the biggest one? What's the smallest one? What's the biggest one?

Yeah. Or what drives you crazy on a regular basis?

Well, I guess one of the biggest challenges is managing the growth that we're experiencing. So, I think if one of the problems we have is we have perhaps too many customers that want to have demonstrations and engage with us and see if they can use our system and they have a lot of questions, maybe they want to see some customization already. And being able to achieve all that requires you know, massive amounts of working capital to be able to do that in advance of actually receiving revenue from those customers. So I think it's, I guess it's a standard growth challenge where we have too much attention on the system and not enough sales staff to deal with all the attention that we're getting, essentially. That makes it very hard. I think you probably know just as well as I do that every warehouse is different. They all have different labeling systems, different numbering systems for their locations, configurations. And so they all want something a little bit different in their stock checking. And that means that the system has to be very flexible. So having had the number of customers that we've had already, which is a fair number already, we've had to make the system quite flexible. But even so, with every new customer, there's, there's still usually the need to do some little change and make it even more flexible than it already is. And so having that, the fact that not every warehouse is the same, again, puts a lot of pressure on execution and sales to be able to do that in advance of them agreeing to use the system.

How do you see your company or solution in 3 to 5 years from now?

So we see automated stock checking as rapidly evolving from a novelty into a requirement for sophisticated global brands that sign multi-year management contracts with third-party logistic companies. So to stay ahead, I, I certainly recommend that warehouse managers talk to us for a demonstration. And Our vision for, for Fling and for the system is to be deployed with our platform in over 1,000 palletized warehouses by 2025. And we hope to be a major leader in the industry here in ASEAN, but also globally with that kind of deployment.

What would be the advice that you can give to a founder or someone who's starting a business right now? specifically in supply chain logistics technology and, you know, interested to kind of set up a company either in Asia or elsewhere, what would be your recommendation here?

Well, the best advice I could give is to talk to customers. You can do it cheaply even before you found the company, even before you start building a product, you hire a big team, hire salespeople, you know, build prototypes, even before any of that, have intensive detailed conversations, you know, invite people to coffee, write things down, model things on paper, figure things out as far as you can on a theoretical or planning level before you dive in because the funding environment right now means that there's just no— investors have no patience for figuring things out anymore for pivoting around and finding product-market fit. You better hit the ground running with an idea that you're almost certain will have customers. And the way to do that, the great news is you don't have to do it expensively. If you have these conversations, people will probably have them for free with you. They'll chat with you, especially if you're a friendly person. And so, if you can find a way to prove the validity of your idea, prior to significant product investment, then you're going to be in a very, very good position as you, as you start the company.

Yeah, so very important to spend time doing your market research and engage with, you know, industry practitioners and stakeholders just to get some quick feedback and an interest from them. I agree. Okay, thank you very much, Michael. It was great talking to you. Before we wrap up, I just had a few quick, what I call my fire questions just to end up. So let me ask you that. Cats or dogs?

Cats.

Okay. Interesting. You have cats in Bangkok?

There are many cats around the office here in Bangkok, although I'm too afraid to touch them because I'd probably, I'd probably have to go to the hospital after. But they're, they're very, very cute. I like to look at them. Yeah.

Okay. Window or aisle?

Isle, for sure. Love The Isle.

Okay. Any good movie you've seen recently that just comes to your mind right now?

Oppenheimer. I loved Oppenheimer. Isn't it amazing? Like, it was, you know, a movie about a legal status of a person and, you know, sitting in an office room, and yet it's the most exciting movie of the year.

What's your favorite lunch in Bangkok?

I like to go to Luca. It's a coffee shop and have a nice grilled cheese sandwich. It's fantastic.

What's your most used app on your phone?

Okay, I use Lichess. I have to admit, Max, Lichess. It's a chess app, great stress reliever. I probably use it too much.

All right. What's your favorite tool to build your company?

Slack, I have to admit. We use it every day. It's indispensable and it's so much better than email.

Describe the rest of your life in just a few words. Where do you see yourself when after you're retired and you exited from Fling and you are, you know, you just want to stop working?

Wow, that's a question. It's hard to think that far ahead, Max, but I certainly hope that I can eventually achieve the success I just talked about with Fling and then pay it forward to new founders and become part of the angel network of the future for startups because I certainly don't see myself leaving the scene anytime. I think it's really fun to be involved in innovation and the whole industry here, but perhaps AI will allow all of us to retire and get uploaded to the cloud and, you know, live as in a computer game of the future. Maybe that's the real future that we all have, Max.

Looking forward to that. And do you see yourself staying in Asia or going back to North America?

For now, I certainly see myself staying in Asia. I think it would be hard for me to go back to those Canadian winters, Max. They're very cold.

Definitely, yeah. Okay, great. Thank you very much, Michael. It was great to hear from you, understand what Fling is doing, how, you know, the success that you're getting with your new solution and new platform. And we wish you all the best for it.

Well, thank you, Max. And I just want to say, I really admire your leadership of the industry or of the whole supply chain industry here in ASEAN. Your events and your platform, I think, is just indispensable for the acceleration of innovation here. I have not seen anything even remotely comparable to what you're doing to make it possible for companies like mine to connect with actual decision makers. And I have to say that I've gotten customers from your network. One of— some of our biggest customers have come through you. So, I really have to say thank you very much.

Thank you very much, Michael. I really appreciate it. That was Michael Curry, CEO and founder of Fling, with us today. So, thank you, and we look forward again to see you next time.