Interview with Michiel Valee, Co-Founder, Dockflow

Welcome to ChainTech, the show and podcast focusing on the latest trends in supply chain, procurement, and logistics technology. My name is Max Henry from the Global Supply Chain Council, and together with my co-host and special guest, we explore the personalities, startups, innovators, and industry players driving disruption in supply chain. From early stage to unicorns, And from cutting-edge technology to the people using it to help drive more innovative, agile, and resilient supply chains around the world. This is ChainTech. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of ChainTech. I'm your host Max Henry from the Global Supply Chain Council. And I'm joined today with my co-host, Huy Vuong. Hi, Huy, how are you?

Hi, Max, I'm so good. Nice to have a talk with you today.

I'm Huy.

I work as a supply chain design analyst to provide solutions for multiple multinational companies. Really nice to have conversations with our Max Henry co-host today and our special guest, Michael Vallée.

Yes, thanks again for joining us for another episode of the show as we continue to host some of the most interesting and exciting chain tech founders and discuss the quick rise of supply chain logistics and procurement technology in Europe, in Asia, and around the world. As we jump into today's conversation, I want to make sure that you are again aware of our chain tech platform that you can visit on chaintech.net. And you can also find all the previous interviews on chaintech.show. So as Wei mentioned, we're very pleased to have today as our guest host, Michael Vallée, who is the co-founder of Docflow. Hi, Michael, how are you?

Hi, good morning, good afternoon. Thanks for having me.

Okay, as we always do in our interviews, we want to— we'd like to understand your background. So can you share a little bit with us and with the audience, where are you based, where you come from, maybe share a little bit about your studies, your childhood, before we jump into the topic?

Yes, thank you. Of course, I'm Michael. I'm co-founder at Docflow, and we help freight forwarders by providing visibility. For me, that goes already quite a while back. I actually always remember having a technical background. Like, I remember giving small lectures at high school about how a computer works and so on. And I did kind of that during my studies. We're based in Antwerp, so I went to the University of Antwerp. research about business and the combination of business and IT. And of course, as you know, Antwerp, a big logistics hub, one of the bigger ports in Europe. So one of the student jobs or one of the internships that you do is always in logistics. So that's actually where I got to know the logistics sector and I was quite intrigued by it.

Okay.

So you, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile. So you've been an entrepreneur before. You actually founded quite early a company. Can you share with us what was your previous company or your business all about?

Of course, yes. So I was always a little bit technical, and that translated also into like the things that I wanted to do to earn some money as a student, which was in the very beginning making a website, making a website for like a butcher shop, like bakeries and so on, because then back in that time we didn't have any WordPress or anything like that that was very easy to use. And during the studies and more towards the end of it, that evolved into making more complex systems. For example, making CRM systems, CMS systems, and so on, full-blown webshops and so on. But again, that was before Shopify was a thing. So I had a business in making these kind of technical systems right before actually all these other platforms came to make it more easily. And where other people were doing an inter— a student job during summer, which is very common here, I was doing these kind of things during the studies.

That's okay. Yeah, go ahead.

Yeah, so that's so interesting. So with your story, what makes you to come with the idea in the dock flows in the logistics industry?

Yeah, that was during the internships. And also, that was for Deloitte that I had an assignment where we had an, yeah, an assignment for the Port of Antwerp Authority where they had a question asking, we see all these technologies, like we see VR, blockchain, AR, drones, and everything that is hip and trendy. We see all these technologies, what should we do with them? And that was a question that I got to work on as an intern. And that was really an entry into all of the port activities because we had to talk with HR of the port, but also operations, any vessel traffic services, and so on. So I really got a full view of what's happening at a port, and I was quite amazed by it, by how even inefficiently it still runs. And I'm sure it's the same case in other ports as well, that a lot of paper is still used, a lot of emails, faxes have been sent, and so on, which was totally not what I had expected from the studies. From the studies, you see all these kind of new technologies, you see a lot of innovation being pushed. You get all the fancy cases, but you don't see the dirty work that is still happening there. And that was kind of me, for me, the trigger to start with a company that does something in logistics. So which was still very, very broad. Let's do something about digitizing in logistics. And that was also the start of Docflow. So it was more of a very smooth progress from what I was doing as a student job, like making these websites, making these technical processes, making a smooth transition towards a more consultancy role where we said, okay, we will help logistics companies specifically to implement complex systems. And that's actually where we started. From there on, we got to know more about the logistics sector and we actually got the same questions from a couple of forwarders. The same question, give me information about my container, which surprised me that we got that question. But anyhow, we built like some scrapers and a platform that get this data together. And actually, we decided a few years ago that that was going to be the core of the product we developed today.

Okay. So if you had one sentence, you know, can you— and to summarize what Docflow is, what will it be? One sentence only.

Of course. Well, at Docflow, we help freight forwarders regain control of their shipments and thereby reducing cost, risk, and increasing their value proposition towards their clients, which are shippers.

Okay, so what technology do you use behind the Dove Flows?

Quite a lot, actually. We try to— whatever is necessary to get the job done. So we usually don't slam our customers with what kind of technologies we use. But yeah, in the hood, there is kind of all newest and older technologies that you would expect.

So what specific problem are you solving with DocFlow?

Specific problem is visibility and the lack of control about the operations, the maritime operational execution of shipments. So it's a little bit comparable to the same questions you would have when you have something shipped from Amazon to your home. You want to know, has it departed? Has it arrived? But imagine not having just one package shipped to your home, which usually is just one package. But having thousands of packages that are arriving somewhere to your home in the next 3, 4 weeks. Actually, those questions are the problem that you would have then. That's the same problem that the freight forwarders have for their shipments because they have, let's say, 100 containers per person leaving a week and each container is on sea for 2, 3, 4, 5 weeks and so on. And even before it gets empty returned, there's a couple of more weeks that it needs to be monitored. So at any given moment, they have thousands of the containers that they need to manage and they need to know exactly which one to check or which one is an exception. And that's the ones that we track automatically with automation. So we get all these kind of data. We get the data from satellites, from vessels, from IoT sensors, from the scrapings that we have, data that we buy and that we put into it. We put it into our algorithm and that algorithm will tell exactly based on the settings that the freight forwarder has configured. Which one is an exception?

Okay. So, but are you targeting end-user shippers or the freight forwarders with your solutions or both?

We see that the benefit is at both, but we're targeting mainly the freight forwarders because they're more susceptible to the solution.

Are they not supposed to have their own systems? I mean, obviously the bigger ones probably have been developing their own, you know, technology to do this. But so are you more interested in targeting maybe these small, medium-sized freight forwarders?

Yes, mainly indeed the SMB forwarders. We see that they have a system. Of course they have a system, and I hope that no freight forwarder is still using Excel for all their operations. They have a system, but mainly that system is a homegrown system, very local, grown from an accounting system. Because that's the first thing you would need and the first thing that you get also easily can automate, sending your invoices and making sure that you send them correct and that you get paid, because that's a basic need of a freight forwarder, making sure that you don't lose money on the shipments that you make. And on top of that homegrown system, they have added sometimes these visibility solutions, which is something that we see often. They have built their accounting system, they have built some, or they asked to build some modules on top of that. And now they want the visibility layer on top of that as well. And we see these kind of companies that try to build everything themselves, which put them in a dual path in the case that they are, they are both a freight forwarder and an IT company. And that might work for bigger companies, which, which we all know they might have the resources and the slack to be both kind of companies. But for the SMBs, I— we don't see them succeed at that. We see that they need an external partner because this is really specific knowledge and a specific focus to build these visibility solutions. So we built on top of the system that they have already.

So have you mentioned they have the homegrown technology? So maybe it cannot be compatible with the platform or the technology that you are using at the moment. So how can you deal with such challenges?

How do you mean exactly?

They use the different technologies, so which is maybe not compatible with the platform or the technology that you are using in your business at the moment. So how can you get them engaged into your technology, into your platform?

Yeah, to get them engaged, we need to also bring a vision like what can shipping be. Because there are— some of them are very thick to how it is right now. Now we send an Excel to our clients every Friday, and that's how we will keep on doing it for the next 5, 10 years, and I don't see any change necessary. So that's something that we see, and there is mainly about bringing inspiration about how things could be better. So both from an internal perspective, looking at automations, looking at how we can make the job of people lighter, because there is a lot of planning and chaos, and people don't like doing that. So we see that they're losing talent there. We can help with that by automating these things, but also decreasing risk. If we're talking about demerits and all these kind of costs that are unexpected, we can decrease that. And also increasing the value they bring towards their clients. So we see latest month that there is more a move towards the price competition, where it is important for them to also highlight what they can bring as a competitive advantage towards other freight forwarders. And that's where we really get them excited about the solution. And then it becomes a story of integrating technically, where we have a couple of options to integrate as well. We integrate with the main larger software vendors. And also we have the option to easily like upload Excel, which they already make a report from there, which is mainly a capability of their current software.

Okay, so those small, medium-sized freight forwarders, can they use Docflow as a, as a kind of an all-in-one suite of solutions? which replace everything they have, or they just, you know, it will just do certain things or extend their current solution they already have?

Yeah, they will extend their current solution. I don't think there will be in the future one software to really rule them all. I think there are too many complexities involved, and you just can't build everything into one software. We see this as well with the bigger platforms, bigger software platforms. They have a marketplace they built on top of their platform, so they never built everything themselves and everything in-house. And that's also the way we see it at Dockflow. We really excel at the maritime execution, so we're also not looking at other modes, but specifically at maritime execution and the visibility on that, which makes us very strong there. There are other offerings where you can see all of these kind of modes combined, but proof of the pudding is in the eating, and we see that we're very good there.

Okay. Hui?

Yeah, so I see that on your Dovflow website, many applications are using, as you mentioned before, SAP, Microsoft 365, Tableau, so on and so forth. So can you describe for every single technology that you're using and the functions of everyone, what is the purpose for every technology that you are using?

Yes, so for the, like, the bigger companies, SAP and so on, Salesforce, those are the ones that we see being used as their day-to-day freight management system. So there our offering is to integrate with them and see that we can get data out of that, out of that system, for example, booking the L-container, the order reference, and so on, and also push data back. so that they can have their automations, for example, their invoice sending automated. For the other ones like Tableau, there we scan the market and we see that there are good dashboarding solutions already available, which we then will not build ourselves, but we will integrate with them. So they have the best tools available for the job there.

Okay, let's talk about competition, Michael. Who would you consider being your competitors and what makes you different? From the other solutions in the market?

Yeah, I see a lot of competitors focusing on the bigger players in the market, which makes sense because they need to be served as well, like the Kühne+Nagel, DHL, and so on, which is a very big market. We really focus on this SMB market, SME market, which we can serve profitably. So all our product and our sales approach is really tailored to serving these kinds of companies in a profitable way. Making sure that they can onboard easily, that they're serviced in a very good way but efficiently for us. And I think that's really our competitive advantage that we have there.

Who would be your competitors in the SMB market? Can you name a few companies which you think are competing in the same space?

Mainly they are local companies because they're— we integrate— what we mainly see is these local companies having a homegrown system that want to build a visibility layer on top, and some of them already have it. But we see that it requires a full focus to really meet the client's expectation, and those are really the competition that we see.

Okay, Hui?

So I see that the market that you are playing on is so very competitive, especially in Belgium and one of the countries in the blue banana zone, which the logistics forwarder can get the very low margins. So how can you get the margins, beneficial margin from your business? Can you tell a little bit more?

I get this question a lot indeed. Like, is it not too overcrowded? I think it's not. I still see so many companies not having something. I still see so many inefficiencies that I believe that there is still a huge market out there. If I— and also these clients that are more visionary, if they tell about what they see as their freight forwarder in the future, actually what they want right now, it's still not there in the market. Like we have clients that think 10 years ahead and they want the solution right now, but it's still not there. So I think, is there enough competition? I don't think there's enough competition even. The market can go even faster, needs more investment. We can all— if we walk into a freight forwarder, we can all think of something that can be done better. And they're also willing to implement that. So I think there is still a lot of development that can be done there.

Okay, so you also focus in the SME business, maybe the same customer segment with all the local logistics service providers. So do you have any niche market for SME clients?

For SME markets, we have to focus on the ones that are just as us focus on growth. So that's really like a company fit that we have with the client. We see that there are smaller companies, but we, for ourselves, we split them up in the more established one who doesn't want to grow. They're more static, they're very generalistic. We don't see a lot of growth in that segment. And that's, I think, a quote by McKinsey that the freight forwarder as they are today, they will disappear. And that way, I think it's true. They will disappear if they have no focus, no growth-oriented, if they just remain keeping on doing what they're doing today, then they will disappear. But we see a lot of growth in the freight forwarders that have a focus. If they have a very specific niche, if they have a very specific client that they cater to or they grow with their client, those are really the segments that we see growing. And that's also where we see that the bigger are really not better. And also that the carriers will not come into play because the carriers, it's still always you have to choose between 2 sides. Either you're on the carrier side, on the cargo side. And if you have a freight forwarder who really chooses the cargo side, takes care of all the concerns, then there will always be shippers who need that kind of service.

Okay. So those freight forwarders—

In that segment, we see a lot of growth.

Okay. So high-growth freight forwarders would be again those which have a focus on a specific industry or product category, or maybe they provide a certain type of value-added services that, you know, the general freight forwarder will not provide. That's interesting. So I want to understand on your customer side again, how many customers do you have and how do you, how do you make money with them?

Yeah, started 2 years ago with the first client on our product. So like I said, we had the MVP and then the proof of concept that we built during our consultancy phase. When we decided to build the product, we had 1 client and now we have 21. So we grew quite well there. And we ask a subscription, a yearly subscription, which is based on their container volume and the feature that they want. So that's mainly, I think it's an industry standard to go by volume. And also it grows with the customer and the feature that they use in the beginning, or depending on how mature, digitally mature the customer is, they need more or less features. For example, first you start with just basic visibility, just having some control about your shipments and having some insight. But later on you might add insights on the demurrage, how much demurrage you charge to clients and so on, but also specific ETA changes in different ports or for different clients, or as well onboarding your clients in the process as well so that they have visibility directly on the platform as well. So depending on how digitally mature they are, the subscription will increase.

Okay. How difficult is the implementation with those customers? You need— do we need to spend a lot of time onboarding?

We take 1 month for that. So there's, depending on whether there is a technical component to it as well, we usually start with just an Excel import so that we can have like the low-hanging fruit already of the implementation, which makes sure that we have already ETA changes that we have, that we see that emerge, the containers that are standing there for too long. These kind of things can be done like on week 1. And then there is, for example, the pushing data back to their original system, for which we take a month of implementation, also training the users and so on.

Okay, that's interesting. Yeah, Hui, you're muted.

Having said that, for the onboarding customer, how much cost do we spend for the technology setup? And we will spend on this, this cost, or the client will pay for the technology setup?

It's included in the package because we have standardized API, which we've implemented, I think, in over half of the customer base already. So it's a very standardized API that they can use, and that's running just— it's a very mature product there. So that's also why we can keep it to a month. Why they shouldn't spend too much money on that. So we see an implementation, an implementation cost on their side, but usually it's not too much.

Tell us about your team. How many employees do you have and how many engineers are helping you to develop the solution?

Yeah, there we're pretty bootstrapped. So we're 3 at the moment and then we're working with some freelancers and we have plans to grow to double next year. So we're going towards 7 next year, which will be a healthy combination of engineers and sales.

Okay, so you're still bootstrapping. Are you looking to raise any funds in the coming months or year?

Yeah, correct. I think there we're taking a very healthy approach as well. Like, we're stabilizing and then growing the current business that we have in a very mature way. Like, it's a business, we know how it works, we know how to make it profitable as well. Uh, so we're not raising venture capitalists for, for that part of the business, uh, but we are raising venture capitalists for new parts or new opportunities that we see, new features and so on. So these new kind of markets is really something that we want to take with risk capital, but the current business is something that we want to expand in a healthy way, still doubling our revenue year on year, but we want to do that with less risky capital. Okay.

Are you targeting again those freight forwarders are mainly based in Europe, right? Are you within Europe? Are you focusing on certain markets or it doesn't really matter where they're located?

We see that solution is being used already worldwide. Like half of our client base is in Europe, but half of them is abroad, which makes 2 in North America. And I think all the other ones are Asia Pacific indeed. So it's already being used, which is actually a very nice surprise in the very early days even of the product. I think our 3rd client already was from India.

Nice.

So we saw that exactly the same features are being used here in Belgium and Netherlands, but also in India and in Singapore and Shanghai and so on. And now we're actually making the exercise, what is really the market that we want to go fully in, where we want to make the investments, where do we want salespeople. That's part of the plan for next year.

Interesting.

Yeah, Hui. That sounds good. So what customer or what market segment would you like to scale up in the future, maybe in 5 years coming up?

What kind of customer segments do you want to go in next 5 years? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, freight forwarders. I believe that there's They will be still there. They will be highly specialised. They will need special solutions to keep their value proposition. And I think there we can really play a role. The freight forwarders that have their Excels and their homegrown system with nothing on it, they will not have any value proposition towards a shipper because those will be replaced by carrier because they're going into that market and they can replace the ones that are really not offering any value added. But the ones that are, that's really the ones where we want to be.

Okay.

Do you have any plan to expand to other countries?

Absolutely. So we already did like some sessions. We went to the US, we went to New York. We have an office there, New York. And then next up is also Singapore that we're exploring. Okay.

I want to focus on maybe more of the—

because that's—

I was looking again at your LinkedIn profile. You're pretty active. in the community. And if you could share with us, you know, in Europe where you're based in Belgium, right? You know, how is the startup logistics supply chain startup look like? Are you, you know, what is the landscape of those companies? Do you know them? Do you meet each other? What kind of startup community around supply chain exists in Europe right now?

Well, like you know, Belgium is a small, small country. So yeah, of course everybody knows each other. It's a very, very small world here, the chain tech or log tech community. And even I went to the US a couple of months ago. Even there you come across people that know a guy and know someone, and you always are connected in some way. So it's a very small space. I would wish it was even bigger, the space. There are some solutions being developed here. But I think really we're playing on a global scale, so we should look also outward and what is out there. Implementation will always be local. You need people there and you need to like touch base with the client often enough. But for the community, I think we should really look globally.

And what kind of challenge do you think those companies are facing right now in the current environment?

I'm gonna give a cheeky answer there, but it's really understanding the customer. I find it still so hard to keep track of what is their concern because it also changes so fast. When it was the merge during Corona, then it's pricing now, it was something else in summer. There's always something new and it might even differ week per week what is their top priority. So those kind of things is really what challenges me, what challenges the company because we need to keep track of Who is saying what? What is their current concern? How can the product cater to that? Is there something they need and how important is it? How important is it now versus how important will it be next month when we build it? So these kind of questions is really something that I'm still looking for an answer and something that we really see as a challenge.

Adapting to the quickly evolving needs of your customer base will be your main challenge. In terms of running the company, what would be the other challenge that you're facing?

Finding, finding good people as well there. So we're looking to grow the team.

Okay.

Yeah, so finding people who are also interested in logistics, which I see was recently declining, but I don't see why. Yeah, I would really like to see more people like being enthusiastic about ports, containers, vessels, and so on. That would be really nice to see.

I see that many companies, they have their target for the sustainability. So do you have taken it into consideration when it comes to the improvement projects for your clients?

We get from environmentally concerns, we usually get the ask for CO2 monitoring quite often. So that's something we have on the agenda now. We're actually still looking for a good solution there, because we don't want to just put out a number there. If there is a CO2 monitoring solution, we want to know what's the impact, how will it be used, is it actually accurate, and will it be a change? Because otherwise, if there is no change, or there is no impact, or measuring will not lead to an action. And we see that there is also a willingness to pay for this feature. So there's a lot of ask for the CO2 monitoring, but we've yet to see like what will they do with it and what will it lead to.

Sounds interesting.

What do you— how do you see your company in the— or your solution in the next 3 to 5 years from now?

I believe in the healthy split, like growing the current business. Profitably and making sure that we, we double revenue, that we, we get our targets as we do now, but also building new solutions and, and keeping in touch with what the customer requires. And I see a lot of growth there. I see that they have still, or for like 10 years of work, worth of work, of features that they want or value that they need. So I see Docflow developing also that and growing with those clients. So yeah, I see us doubling year on year.

And going back to the ecosystem that you have in Europe around Logtech, Procurtech, and dream origin retail tech startup, do you also see the need for all those companies to kind of form tighter collaboration? There's obviously a lot of different platforms out there developing different solutions which could then complement each other. There are connections you could have. You could be tapping into a third-party solution, I mean, there's a lot of collaboration that can happen. Do you see that happening? You know, it's already happening in the fintech sector, but I don't see, you know, this kind of thing happening too much in the gentech. What's your view on this?

It's indeed not happening as it is in fintech. What could be possible explanations for that? I see mainly sector-wise there is a lack of investor interest. For these kind of integrations, you need a lot of time of people, both sales time as well as engineering time. And also a lot of the money will just be gone to waste there. If you have a— in fintech, like, a lot of companies succeeded, but also a lot of companies failed. A lot of integrations were good, a lot of integrations were bad. And in logistics, we see that there is much more a need for this efficiency. If we invest in this company, then we want it to go well. We want it to have an impact. And I think that's really necessary to have these kind of broader partnerships. There's also some slack in those partnerships. And if there is no investor interest, I don't think we will see a lot of these partnerships in the short term.

Okay.

However, I do believe in them.

Okay. Yeah, of course. Yeah. But, and do you feel that the larger 3PL freight forwarders, without naming the names, but everybody knows them, Do the big boys, 3PLs, understand well technology and do they actually work well with, you know, smaller startup companies?

I see them in accelerators and these kind of startup programs, but I've yet to see really implementations yet. From my personal experience, I don't see them working together, but that's really a very personal experience.

Because what? Because they don't understand those solutions, it's just too niche or, you know, too specialized or sometimes—

Or they want to have everything in-house, maybe that's also probably an issue that they want to have it in-house or they buy it as we've seen. So these kind of things is probably why they are not very keen on just working together with another independent company.

Okay.

All right. So what would be your advice, Michael, to a new founder in that space who wants to start or launch a startup specifically again in the logistics or supply chain space?

Yeah, my advice would be, and I think that's an advice for every founder, just get out there and do it, especially in this sector, especially in logistics. People are very operational. The container is either shipped or not. People expect the same thing from a startup or a software company. It's either there or it's not. If the cargo is not there, we, we can't have it and we can't sell it. The same thing is with, with any software solution or as a startup if you're bringing something to the market. We've seen a lot of these companies coming to the logistics market and taking the same approach as might be useful in other sectors where they just sell the solution without having anything. From my experience, I see those companies disappearing, or I see that they're struggling once they really have to deliver. And I think that's a very specific thing for, for chain tech, for logtech.

So the clients are very practical, they're very down to earth, they want to see whether the solution is working. You cannot sell them a dream, right? They— you need to sell them something which is working tomorrow, right? Or actually today, right?

Exactly. They need solutions right now. It's— they think like there is a container burning somewhere and they need to solve it. Uh, the same thing they think about software solutions, like, I want to solve this problem now, what can you offer me?

Okay. Hui?

So in one sentence, can you describe the important objectives for your company in the Futures for your plan?

Main objective is growth for us. So we see our clients growing, they want to grow, they want to grow their container volume, and we're aligned on that goal as well. So part of our pricing is this container volume. So we see that we should increase the value they do to their clients, which will then automatically also grow Okay.

All right. We will sign off for that. I've got some quick fire questions, so get ready, Michael. Cats or dogs?

Dogs. Oh, difficult one.

Okay. Window or aisle?

Window.

One of your favorite movies that you've seen recently?

Pulp Fiction.

Oh, Pulp Fiction. Okay. All right. Pretty old movie. Okay. What's your favorite sandwich or lunch that you take on a regular basis?

What's the English name for that? America. It's with raw meat.

Okay. All right. What's your most used app on your phone?

I think it's my My broker app.

Your broker app? You mean financial broker?

Yes, financial broker app. Okay. All right.

What's your favorite tool to build your company?

Favorite tool to?

Your favorite tool to build your current solution or platform. Yeah.

Our favorite internal tool except for Duckflow itself is HubSpot, which we are really a fan of and also are in the customer advisory board.

HubSpot. Okay, that's interesting. All right. And if you could describe the rest of your life in 3 to 5 words, you know, where will you be in 20 to 30 years from now after you sell Docflow successfully and you retire somewhere with millions of dollars?

Well, I will still be working definitely on something. I will be traveling. I like to be going out internationally and meeting new people. Yeah, those will be really nice things to look forward to.

Okay, so it will not be really a retirement, it would just be a kind of a semi-retirement, right?

I hope not. Let's do it semi, indeed.

Okay, well, thank you very much, Michael, for joining us today. Thanks for having me, Axel. For this interview. Yeah, I hope it was interesting. Thank you, Ray, also for all those nice questions about the platform. This was again Michael Vallée, who is the co-founder of Dogflow. If you're interested again to watch our previous episode, please check out our website at gentech.show, and then we look forward to see you again next time. Okay, thanks, Michael. Thanks, Huy. See you.

Thank you very much. Have a great day. Thank you.