020 - Fitting Out at Work with Emanuele Mazzanti

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

I Smiled and said, I find this really funny. I said that this distance between people more or less the same age at the time. And I said, I used to call Bill the CFO of the 3rd largest industrial group in Australia. So I wonder where this difference comes from. So if you agree, we can just skip all these formalities and just call ourselves Emmanuel and Alberto. And he looked at me shocked, like I was coming like to an Alcoholics Anonymous reunion with a bottle of whiskey. But he said, okay.

Emmanuel, welcome to the show.

Well, it's really cool to be here. And I'll tell you why, because last time it was about facilitation on the workshop work. And we talked about human connection. And this time we're actually leaning even more into how to scale humanity in the workplace. And so I feel, I feel, and then the last thing, I feel strangely at home in a space called Unprofessionalism.

Ooh, this warms my heart. So, yeah. So what is a story that you can tell us when you did something that could have been considered unprofessional, but actually was maybe a quite smart move?

I've been thinking about this question since you started this version of the podcast and you asked this question and I love it. And my mind went back to the start of my journey with Ernst& Young in 2008. I was in Australia. And I was coming from ANZ Bank and I got a call from a former colleague in the marketing department and she called me and said, oh, by the way, Em, we're pulling down the big billboard of you in the Perth CBD car park. And it was this 4 by 3 meter cardboard sign, drive your business further with ANZ, and had my face in it. It was like huge. Like my face was like a meter by a meter. And my wife tells me, you know, like at the time you were more like Brad Pitt, now you're pita bread face. So there's been a bit of a change. So, but I guess I was good enough and I thought it was hilarious, right? What are you gonna do with a 4 by 3 billboard of you? So maybe I was proud as well. So I went and collected it, but I couldn't take it home. So I just cut out my face like 1 meter by 1 meter and I brought it into the EY office 'cause, you know, it was—

And you—

I didn't know what to do. I wasn't gonna go home with that one. So anyway, at the time, the head of business development had this one-liner about what we do, people like us in our role in client executives. And it was, we are out there to make a difference. So I don't want to see people here because if you're here, you're not selling. You need to be out there making a difference. So after a few days, before heading into a client meeting, I leaned this giant cutout face of me against my PC on my desk. And I put a big A4 paper and in big fonts I typed, I'm out there making a difference, back soon. So I thought it was playful and fun to do. When I came back, I remember I was called straight into his office and suddenly I had sort of shingles and like, what do you call it? Not shingles, shivers down my spine and sweaty palms. And boy, I was in for a cold shower. He looked at me and said, clearly disappointed, We're professional executives here, and this is not the image we want to convey to the partnership. I still remember those words. It's like, you know, I was coming from the bank and I was shocked, maybe, you know, embarrassed. I don't know what did, right? But I was confused, let's say. And so I took the sign down from the desk and I put it in a corner. And then maybe a week later, I still had it at the office. A colleague called Jay invites people to her birthday, and it's a lunch in Northbridge. We come back and I had nothing for her. I didn't even know it was her birthday. So, and I said, and I need to get rid of this sign, right? So I wrote on my face or next to it, I wrote with a black marker, happy birthday, Jay, with love, Manu. 20 minutes later, another reprimand, even colder this time. And I think that was the moment when I knew I had a choice. Do I shut down that part of me or do I just bring it and maybe tone it down, but still have that light humor, warmth, playfulness into my work? And if that's considered unprofessional, and I don't fit in because of that, maybe I actually don't care and I want to fit out by being my full self. So I didn't have the language at the time, but now looking back, when you think what you take away from that is that sort of idea of being professional without that humanity behind or without being you, without that lightness that doesn't kill him, it's just in the office. It's like, it creates distance, right? And I think that sort of Distance is what ultimately also impacts the way that we come to work and we bring our full self around the table and we do actually good work.

Yeah, yeah, with less distance.

With less distance, yes.

So how did this end? How did she react to your present? And you're still with EY, what, 20 years later? So I assume that the play for you has survived and won, or? How did it evolve?

Yeah, it's an interesting story because at the time I was actually going through personal turmoil. So I actually went back to Italy soon after and I applied for a position and I got it because I spoke English. Apparently that was enough back in the days. But how did it evolve? It's interesting you say this because the very first interaction with a partner in Italy was very similar. in terms of the distance that they wanted to uphold or to create between, you know, this is how we work and you cannot be that person. So the incident was really that they called me and they said, you're going to work with me on this account. And he was giving me the you, you know, like in Italy there's this form, in many languages, in German as well, there is this formal way of calling someone in the third person and then He also wanted the doctor in front, even though he didn't have a PhD, but in Italy, as long as you have a degree or you try one, you can have it. And then he wanted the surname. So I was supposed to call him Dr. Collier and say third person, and he was calling me Emanuele and giving me this you version.

First name.

Yeah. So I actually, I remember that I smiled and I said, I found this really funny. I said that this distance between people more or less the same age, right, at the time. And I said, I used to call Bill the CFO of the 3rd largest industrial group in Australia. So I wonder where this difference comes from. So if you agree, we can just skip all these formalities and just call ourselves Emmanuel and Alberto. And he looked at me shocked, like I was coming to an Alcoholics Anonymous reunion with a bottle of whiskey. But he said, Okay.

Wow.

So I think what I found is that in a lot of places of high formality, I was in the army as well, so very similar. The distance that people are trying to keep sometimes is more for their sort of emotional restraint and distance. And this idea that maybe officially they don't say that, they talk about, you know, we need to be polished, we need to be predictable, clients love that, you know, there's a set of distance that is healthy. But unofficially, I think it's this armor that they wear, and it's really about restraining emotions and keeping that distance. And then those type of armors, they become heavier, right, with the time. So sooner or later, I notice that they break down. But that's really like, I think, the biggest answer that I can give you. Like, the distance is really given by this sort of emotional restraint and hierarchy that You know, um, yeah, that we need to disrupt in a good way, so to speak, in a light way.

And I, I love these 2 anecdotes next to each other because I wonder what I'm thinking of is the unspoken rules. So you hanging a sign with your headshot. I'm out there, basically supporting the message of the company, was somehow stepping on someone's toes or breaking a rule you were— you didn't even know about, and then offering a more informal way of speaking to each other. Apparently, you also broke an unspoken rule, but in this case, it was welcome.

Yes.

And I would be curious about the impact of that, but I, so what I hear, the impact of the unspoken rules and what happens if we're testing them.

I'm trying to think also knowing you about the work that you do around psychological safety, right? So the price you pay in the moment is this sort of feeling excluded, right? So there's a momentary exclusion. There's also confusion, so you don't really know, maybe it's something wrong with me, you know, and you start to realize, you know, is this the norm, these cold conversations, or is this my interpretation of them? What is the truth in this environment? Maybe it's just the fact that, you know, I've been misunderstood. Maybe my Italian is a bit rusty after 12 years in Australia. Who knows? But it's also like in the moment, you know, in terms of the price you pay, it's also like, Some of the, because this was just a fun example now, but at the time, you know, you really feel it and it says, okay, sleepless nights, you know, it's the job after I came back from Australia for 12 years. I never worked in Italy. Now I've got an opportunity to start the game and to build on what I've learned so far. And so, but you realize that, you know, you need to step outside that script that they sort of placed you in, right? And the tendency, or maybe the react— the first reaction would be to actually tone it down, right? Take away the banner or accept the fact that there's distance between us and I give you this noble title while you just call me Manu, right? But I think the reason why it's unprofessional in a way to challenge that and bring that humanity in the workplace is that the reward for the person who's actually on the receiving end, the me, is that coherence. I don't have to split myself between who I am outside work and the way that I lead or the way that I behave at work.

Yeah.

So I always think, you know, when it comes to relationship, if you build them from a place that it's real and not performative, it's, you know, high-performing culture like that is difficult sometimes, but it's certainly that trust that really in the end doesn't depend on wearing a mask or the armor.

Yeah.

So, and it's so much easier to bring that consistency, right? Because you're operating from a place that is actually you. And yeah, so I think there's a price in the moment, but the reward from pushing the boundaries, I think, is that coherence. And also, like, you know, what is culture in the end is people like us do things like this. So if we More people feel inspired and says, I can be like that in my own way. And, um, so, yeah. Yeah.

And then it's so easy to have all these assumptions of why that is. Maybe it was just for him the way of doing it. Maybe it was a way to hide his own insecurity. Do you think that something changed in your relationship because you were also talking about connection and how the armor, the formality can be in between the connection? So how has your relationship then changed or built from the moment that suddenly you at least addressed each other as equals?

It's interesting you say that because this person left, retired a couple of years ago. And even though I hadn't been working with him for over 10 years, we sent messages. And I think what happens once you strip away that sort of veneer of professionalism and distance and hierarchy and the idea that, you know, the credibility comes from only the output, what you get is actually you get closer, right? So I remember once this person called me in his office and he just went venting on about something, right? And I was expecting, okay, but where's the action for me? And he was just, oh, thank you for coming. So I was like, okay, I really need to get into the psychology degrees and all. But the point I want to make is that it's really an act of mutual care and commitment and presence. So we start to work on the same clients, and then you show up to see each other as we are, right? As human beings first. I knew everything then about his family, his holidays, football team. So suddenly you break down those silos.

Mm-hmm.

That makes you at times, you know, because we call them human resources, and in the end, you know, you might feel, okay, it's a factory. And we're all replaceable cogs. And so maybe keeping distance is also a way not to get attached to people because it's all about the work and the performance and the delivery that I need to make as a partner. And now you're actually bringing some of that love, but not in a sentimental way, but more like I said, care, connection, and real presence in the interactions. And And you do work better, but because now you have established some better conditions for real trust, not just a professional agreement.

Yeah. And I love the distinction that you just made, the, or the different perspective. What if the professional armor is actually a way to not get attached and to keep in mind that we are all replaceable?

Yes. I felt that in the army as well. So I think there's something to do with environments, maybe whether it's in Iraq or, you know, whatever stripes you have on your shoulders, they say a lot because that's the reality.

Yeah.

I remember my captain used to tell me, once you're back in Australia, you'll be able to pile up that kangaroo manure the way you want, you know, but here you cannot be creative or do things unless I tell you how. And I was like, what is this distance? And again, you know, by working with this captain, you know, we became so close and there was another, Quartermaster with me and the 3 of us had such a great relationship. So I think there is something about not willing to lean into the human side because it's easy. You avoid difficult conversations. You don't have to sit in tensions. You can just conform and then it's less challenging as well to lead, right? That way. And so the emotional distance remains. So I think it's more about trying to edit the rules a little bit as you play. And then you'll find that it's natural for people to open up, crack open and connect, because that's what we're drawn for as human beings, right? To have each other. And we're so much better together.

Yeah. And somehow there's something that holds us back and makes us afraid of doing that.

And I—

And I wonder what it is that made it, makes you successful in this strategy to challenge or to, to challenge these hierarchies and to flatten them, because I can imagine that it's a very thin line where it could be interpreted as overstepping or lack of respect. Or not understanding the rules. And from how I understand you, it was mostly received with open arms and open hearts, maybe. So where do you see is the difference?

Well, I haven't told you about the time that actually didn't work out.

Maybe that's it.

So I had a job move that was a sort of a pivot in my career and opened up the opportunity to go down from Italy to working for London. so to speak, like, you know, the big area organization, global, and then pivot to the Nordics as well in Sweden now. And yeah, and I was working with a very senior prominent partner who was not willing to actually get into any sort of openness, widen his focus on what a relationship could be like. And I started to challenge respectfully. And I remember I had a son who was 1 year old and he said, where are you going? It was 7:30 on a Friday. I says, I'm going home. He goes, well, I just got back and I forgot that we have this big meeting on Monday and you need to help me out. And I said, when did you know that? And he said, 2 weeks ago. I said, well, sorry, but not sorry. And he says, so you're telling me no? And I says, I'm telling you that I'm sure there will be people given your seniority that will be willing to spend the weekend working for you on this one, but I'm not one of them because I've got plans and I've got a 1-year-old son who's probably right now almost asleep, or if not asleep. And so I said, so what do we do? Like, I'm the partner, you're the junior, no, the manager. Now you're reversing roles. You're telling me what to do. I says, I'm advising you to call, I told the name, and I'm sure that they will be able to help you out. And so he did. But then I said, okay, now I've pushed with this particular person, maybe I pushed my boundaries too much and then he started to really make life difficult for me, almost bullying really, like calls. And I moved because sometimes you have to stay honest to— well, not sometimes, sorry. You have to keep that integrity. And so if there is one thing that I've always done, whether it served me well or not, and I'm really passionate about in my leadership development work is What is your journey from values to behaviors? Is there a coherence? Is there a way that those behaviors reflect those grounding values? And if the answer is no, that means alignment is not sustainable. You know, I realized that on a rooftop moment where I was miserable and crying and I thought, I'm never going to compromise on that again. So I guess it's more, it's almost like one of those Romeo and Juliet stories, right?

Tell me more.

No, like I was thinking about it actually, it was in a conversation with a professor from INSEAD, Gian Piero Petrighieri. Petrighieri is great. And I came across his work because he came to the Nordic Forum and he was talking about love as a leadership, as a kind of love. I just saw this slide, I wasn't there and I just loved the idea, right? And Marcus Buckingham now has a book out on a similar topic as well. I haven't read into it. But if you think about it, that way of being you and bringing that groundness and the sense of being whole and creative and awesome around, right? Wherever you walk, it's probably bringing that sort of love or your loves, like obviously your strength, your imperfections to work in a way that it's you. It's not the way that it's supposed to To go, right? So that's why I said Romeo and Juliet, because it's a story that has captivated people for centuries. Like, I think it was like 1600 or late 1500s when it was written, because essentially it's a love story that is not supposed to exist.

Yes.

That's not why love stories go, you know? You got everything around you, the head of business development, the other part that tell you don't go there. You know, there's a rivalry between these 2 families. There are rules, expectations. There's a lot of history here, and this is how we do things. And yet you choose something that is deeply human and something that it's calling you to act in a certain way. And the system is telling you, no, don't, don't. So that's the truth, right? And then people might say, okay, but then Romeo and Juliet didn't end well. However, I think that the story might have a tragic end, but it's not meaningless because What you really see is what is the cost we pay in organizations, if you wanna draw the analogy, when it comes to rigidity and to, you know, you have to fit this square box and even if you're a round shape. And so I think when we bring the message, and I believe that everybody has agency, right? And sometimes it goes well, sometimes it doesn't, but I think you always have this agency to fight this idea that rules matter more than people. You know, this, we've always done it this way. Who are you to come here and disrupt? Right. And I said, who set those rules? You know, like we can change them, right?

Yeah.

It's people like us doing things here. So I think to the point of the, of the, um, of the story of Romeo and Juliet, like I think we need more leaders who are actually brave enough to create and hold that space where people can and protect it, right? When people can come alive, because we know from statistics that not only people are more engaged and they stay with a smile, but they actually outperform. So I think that's the big missing point because a lot of times I'm passionate about leadership development, vertical development, and then you go into work and people say, yeah, but we're here to make money. And I say, yeah, but I'm telling you this, you can actually make more if that's what drives you. You can actually make more with a smile. Wouldn't that be a better world to work in?

Yeah.

So I think that's the missing ingredient if you want. in a lot of organizations, uh, but that's also the, the key to really unlock the performance. So it's a bit of a dichotomy really, like.

And it's funny, I, um, the love is such a dirty word when, when we think of business and professionalism and what came to mind for me listening to you and the story of Romeo and Juliet and bringing love to work is that actually the essence of love is that someone brings out the best in you, right? That's love. It's not the blind running around with the, with the pink glasses, but it's the rest and assurance that someone accepts us as we are, and this brings out the best in us. To show up.

I love that perspective.

Hell yeah, we need more love at work.

Well, we do, but also because to your point, ironically, like, you know, we dismiss it as soft, you know, what if, you know, I'm here to run $20 billion, whatever number, and it's irrelevant to this serious business of performance that we have here. And then it's like, no, but it's actually, to your point, is the deepest commitment to someone's flourishing, you know? And if you think about it, you know, in psychological safety, we talk a lot. If people don't feel trust between individuals and that safety, that kind of, I'm safe from, there's no risk or repercussions if I voice my opinion in this room, right? And we know that that's true. And if you want to have those tough conversations that will bring out the best ideas or options, you only have those with people you've come to love. And again, we're talking about you know, the professional type of love, if you want, you know, the working type of love. But if we just keep stuck, getting stuck in the doing and this idea that it's all about is having this performance identity, that it's about growth, efficiency, and outcomes. And these are the lens, unfortunately, through which most of the leaders are measured, rewarded, right?

Yeah.

So they end up defining the identity from day one. Then on top of that, you put that in organizations, not just professional services, there is a very competitive environment because, Myriam, let's be honest, the two of us are looking for this partnership position and only one can get it. So how am I going to behave as a team player to you, or maybe more of a hidden agenda? This is my relationship with the guy. It's like, well, is it your relationship? So I think this sort of narrow focus on, and it constricts us, right? As humans.

Yeah.

And by opening up, you just, and I think by opening up, what I mean, and I noticed in a workshop last week, we're so stuck into the doing. I had this workshop that was starting after lunch and it was on storytelling. Now you're asking people to actually access the most natural operating system that we have and it's deeply human and connect.

Yeah.

and feel. And they come from the first half of the day, delivery work, client calls. They came in and they had all of them almost the laptops on. And I remember thinking, talking about being unprofessional, I says, well, we're going to start with something that it might not be widely common practice here, but my co-facilitator was really cool about it as well. I said, we're going to start with some breathwork, eyes closed. Just to make sure that you were actually landing in this space and you're arriving. Because now, and then, but it took about an hour and in the end it was brilliant. We actually went overtime because they wanted to stay. The shift from the doing to actually the presence, to bringing yourself here as a human. And it was just literally this meta view. It was just amazing to watch. And I was so happy that that shift was unfolding in front of me. But I think that's the challenge with a lot of interventions or talks about D&I even, or leadership development. It's all about the doing. Give us one more tool so that we can be better leaders. Give us one more checklist to be a D&I inclusive leader.

Yeah.

Right? This is, well, the hard part is that it's not about adding a new sort of app features to your current apps that you're using. It's actually thinking of a different operating system altogether, right?

Yes.

And I think that's where the challenge is, right? And I don't have a lot of answers apart from small practices, but it's hard, but it's possible.

It is hard. And I know it for myself that the moment you start running and doing and working, suddenly all these big questions are bubbling up, right? Suddenly you wonder, what's the meaning? What's the purpose? Who am I? And it's easier not to ask these questions if we're in the running and the doing. And I would be very curious in your experience working with these leaders and this polarity so that there's so many levels actually that I would love to explore with you. So one is it's a very, masculine way of leadership to not to have the connection, not allow any space for love, for storytelling, just doing the KPIs and the bonus. So from your work with leaders, how do you break that pattern? Or at least how do you create a little crack in that pattern?

That's a deep question. One thing I noticed, uh, this was also another conversation with Giampiero that I had, was the, um, um, it was the story when Elvis Presley came on TV for the first time. And, uh, I can't remember the name of the show, uh, something like the Dorsey Brothers anyway, but it was like the late '50s, right? And of course he had the hip shaking and, you know, some of the moves that were considered shocking, like, you know, Yeah. taking breaky, breathing into a consulting workshop or talking to someone and say, let's connect, you know, let's call each other by name. So a bit of some of that might be perceived as cultural shakeups, but at the same time, I noticed that if you bring some small, tangible sort of low-risk practices, you know, you start to open the door. And I think what I reflected with Javier was that It wasn't really the hips, the shaking that was considered shocking. It was actually the sense of freedom that was coming from it, right? So I think when it comes to, because you mentioned the word polarities, when it comes to what does it mean to lead in chaos in an era where you don't have answers and you can't have answers, you can't keep up with the amount of information that is coming to you, right? Mm-hmm. The only thing you can realistically do is to actually slow down. And find places, whether it's meetings or offsites or even a 2-hour workshop where you really focus in being present to one another. So when you talk about, you know, what can be done to start to bring in more of this is this very small initiative where if it's an account meeting, you start to acknowledge people for the contribution, you start to open up and create that sort of psychological safety with questions. As a facilitator, it's actually challenging if someone is speaking dominating and say, move your chair. I remember doing this last year. I says, can you just sit at the back? Because not only you are the most senior person, but you're also the tallest. And then every time you are— that was a good point. So I think it's bringing small, tangible ways of being together, right? that will naturally make people feel comfortable in their presence and in the presence of others and embrace something completely different, which is a more human way to lead. And I know that it's something that everybody's drawn towards. So for instance, I mentioned value to behaviors. We did a workshop last year when we actually got senior leaders to reflect on their values. And for men, it's actually hard because that's not what you do. Right.

Yeah.

And what do they mean in the way that you work? And there were some wonderful stories. Some people got emotional about it, but that's the work, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah. Going to places where it's not expected or they were not expecting it, but at the same time, It's where you're most grounded and operating from a place that is sustainably good. It starts small, I guess, but you need to have a little bit of courage, both as a practitioner or as a leadership development leader and as a participant, right? Because it can truly change everything.

Yeah. As you said, starting with the breath, helping the group to calm down. And I think Oh, thank you for mentioning that with the values, because I think this partly answers my second curiosity that you described, that you have 2 people, you have one partnership position. So this is a context, a fact that, and partnership is one example, uh, in consultancy, but it could be anything.

Yeah.

That creates this competition and might bring out maybe the worst of people. Instead of bringing out the love, the compassion, the mutual support that would be actually more beneficial for the business.

Even though if you, if this is why I love the, some of the programs, um, that I facilitated and that will be facilitated in the future as well, where you take people who have been in the firm for maybe 12, 14 years, and the natural evolution is maybe looking at that partnership or super, you know, executive type of position and getting them to reflect on how would you sign yourself off as a leader, you know, like your sort of signature, which is you, right?

Mm-hmm.

Not what is expected of you, but you strip down of all these layers of conditioning, expectations, ideas of success. And it's always so revealing when people realize, I actually, I'm fine even without it. You know, it's not what is going to define me, a rank or a title. Some others are actually, no, look, this is, I've been working for this. But it's not a sort of like a set outcome anymore. Mm-hmm. And for the first time, you've had this opportunity to stop the ball from rolling into this pinball machine, use the flippers. The ball is now stopped for 5 seconds and you go, oh, I've been chasing the score and I'm not even, interested anymore.

I want to play with you. If I like the game, yes. And it's this kind of, as long as you have the carrot in front of you, you don't even realize maybe that's, I don't even want the carrot because, and then the pause and the reflection whether partnership is the right for you.

Yeah. And so I'm not saying that, you know, I'm suggesting that half the people leave the firm because I think that's not what happens. But what happens is that maybe you find that there is a team leader role that you're really drawn towards, or maybe there is a pivot that from audit to go to a more consultative role. You know, there's a lot of ways that even myself, I had 5 different roles in 18 years, almost 18 years. So you keep focusing on, and this is a question that again, creating those spaces for us to tap into our inner self, right? And raise that awareness that that we hardly ever tap into, right? About what is your intention? Like, who is the person you want to become? And there's a beautiful phrase by the late Jim Rohn that said, success is some, whatever your definition, but it's something that you attract by the person you become. But if you ask a lot of people, like, what is the person you're becoming? They will give you a title. I had a counselee once who said, I want to be head of learning and development. I said, okay, I ask you, you want to be, fine, that's the title. So I said, what do they do? And he says, well, they lead a team. I said, no, no, no, but it's 9 o'clock on a Monday. What do you do? How do you have to be in that role? And because I have no idea, I said, well, then I suggest that you think about it because it might not turn out what you actually like. So a lot of people have a strong why because they feel it. Maybe they've had it since they were kids and I want to be a nurse. And then you get into nursing school and you start to work in a hospital and you realize that all the time that you wanted to be a nurse because you wanted to help people, you can't. I mean, you can only take the temperature and then you have to move on to the next patient.

Yeah.

So you had this fantasy about talking to the patient and talking to the relatives of the patient and creating this beautiful environment. And it's just a managerial role, boom, boom, bed to bed until you go home.

Yeah.

So I think it's important to understand how, you know, as well. But anyway, but the overall part was that I think, I hope that's the message from today, that if you bring your personality, meaning like you tap into that full energy of the soul, there's a beautiful book by Gary Zukav, and he talks about, you know, when your personality fully serves the energy of your soul so that like the full you, including, you know, the parts that might be laughable, so to speak. That's when, you know, it's, uh, you're truly unlocking your, um, your, your true potential in a sustainable way. And, and quite frankly, I don't care if it's not considered professional because it is very professional because, you know, the work is still good, right? We always talked about this, right? Unprofessional doesn't mean that you're not caring about the work. It means that you're showing up. It's just showing up. ways that put love as relevant to performance and the performance becomes better.

Yeah. I have 2 more questions.

Yes.

And the one question you can also decide not to answer and we can cut it out because you are not a partner after 18 years. What drove that decision?

My definition of success has nothing to do with ranks. And, um, it's always been about experiences and pivoting to areas that were really calling me. So I've been from this client executive salesperson, um, to a more detached role in operations and then, uh, into talent as a team lead and now as a leadership development facilitator.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, and it's been a natural evolution for me in line with my values and the strength that I was built in. Strength, not because I say so, but because the feedback was there as well to support it, right? So with this alignment between values and strength, where is that leading me? I don't know the next pivot, but I know that when you lean fully into you, doors will open, right? And then you think, isn't that interesting? They called me for that initiative. And I says, of course it is, because you've been putting yourself out there in a way that reflected you and people feed into the energy. They see authentic, meaning that between what I feel, say, and can do, there's hardly any gap.

Yeah.

And I think that's the condition to actually flourish, right? So I'm not interested in the pressures, in the money, and that comes with that rank. Having said that, I did say this as a, I thought it was like a powerful and motivational story to a group of new managers in Dubai. And 90% in the room was from India and they looked at me like I was a loser. How can you be for 18 years in the same rank, you know, like without climbing the ladder? And they really challenged back on that one. Yeah, but by now you should be. I said, okay, I rest my case. Cultural nuances that I didn't consider. So it doesn't work for everyone, but it works for me and my staff. I sleep very well at night, Myriam.

And I'm not surprised by the pushback, and I would be even less surprised if this apparently shocking story of yours will resonate later. Like, huh, I haven't even considered that this could be something. That what else than the rank, the prestige, but also the responsibility and the stress and the overtime.

Well, this one can go down 2 ways. One is people, there was, I listened to this podcast that the person that was talking was referring to another a famous author who only towards the end of his life when he was truly sick, and I'm talking like 3 days before he died, he realized, I never really lived the life I wanted, but at least I got these 3 days where I realized that I die in peace. And it was really powerful. So that's one way you never realize or you realize too late. The other way is going back to the pinball machine, you know, you keep playing the game and the sound is enticing, the wheels and bells, But then the ball drops and you might be 40, divorced, or you might be not happy, or you might, there's all conditions, you know, for me, truly like being on a rooftop and realizing that what am I doing? So deciding to pivot and divorce and go back to Italy at the tender age of 36, living with my parents. But it was something that I had to do because that breakout moment, you know, that cracking open and entering into this identity sort of reshuffling and really doing the deep work after that, like It calls you and you can't just go back or ignore it, right? So I think eventually for everyone comes to a point where you need to, um, lean fully into you and understand the person that you are, who you want to become, and the choices that you need to make in, in, in, in alignment to that. So, yeah.

So if there's one unprofessional advice that you would still give other people, what would that be?

Well, I strongly believe that even this focus on the self-help industry, you know, fix yourself, do yourself. I think what we lack more of is connection. And so when we talk about organizations that are typically built on, you know, intense labor and replaceable cogs in machines, I'm not talking about my firm, I'm talking about in general, right? All the things that look unprofessional in more rigid type of environments, right? They end up, like we said, being based on distance, right? So my advice is try to break the distance and connect with people. Connect with yourself first. So this is where the inner work is important because you can't connect with others, but then try to meet them where they are and try to really connect because I think trying to be more human with other humans, you know, in a system and maybe doesn't expect it. I think it's the unlock to so much happiness and joy and performance. And it's not like to be a rebel, but really to see what can become possible if we are leaning to us more often. So it's a sort of courage, but you can set the bar low, right? And start with a question. So it's not threatening. Um, that would be the, the answer is that connection is the key to, to reduce the distance and, and, and to bring love into the workplace. It's about care, commitment, and presence, like we said at the beginning. So.

Thank you so much, Em.

Thank you, Myriam, for having me.

Lots of food for thought. Yeah. This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.