024 - Beyond the Day Job with Jamell Crouthers

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

I've written 60 books in 8 years with a full-time job, and I have a podcast and I write blogs. Can I say I've overworked myself? Yeah, I did. I overworked myself like crazy, but my moniker is to change the world one book at a time.

Hello, Jamal. Welcome to the show.

Thank you so much for having me.

I am delighted. And I feel very honored that you stayed up very late to make this happen. It's midnight in Arizona at the moment. So welcome.

Yes, it sure is. Yeah.

So let's get right on it. I always ask the same opening question or invitation, whether you would be open to share a situation when something you did could have been considered unprofessional and still looking back, you think, ah, that was actually quite a good move.

Let's see, let's see, let's see, let's see. You know, a few years ago I started a job working in the medical field and I just started like my process of, you know, writing, you know, books and all that stuff. So before work I would be sitting in the break room and, you know, I'd be typing away and, and people are like walking in going, well, what is he working on? Like, so people started asking me. asking, but, you know, sometimes I was like, I don't know if I wanna talk about this, but, and then I'm looking around, you know, you're in a workplace environment where it's, you know, all the cubicles, all the people and stuff like that. So some coworkers, I started talking about my writing and my podcast and stuff like that. You know what's crazy? Some of my coworkers started buying my books on social issues and my supervisor. was listening to my podcast. Every time I released a new episode, he would listen to it either on the way to the office or on his way home.

Wow.

Yeah.

That is beautiful.

Yeah.

And shows how, how you can indeed bridge maybe what is considered maybe the private life of writing and arts and professional life.

Yeah.

What have you learned from this experience of being so welcomed in this process?

I've learned that a lot of people really do have an interest in social issues and talking about that stuff. A lot of times people talk about social issues like within the confines of like themselves, you know, within family and friends, but they don't talk about it openly to a lot of other people. Right. Um, there was, you know, one book that I wrote, I wrote about, and it's, you know, it's controversial and things of that nature. And when I started, you know, talking about it to, you know, like my supervisor, certain coworkers, they were like, oh, right.

Mm-hmm.

And I let them read, you know, a few chapters early on and they're like, oh.

What was the controversial topic? Now I'm curious.

Yeah. So everyone was like, oh. I like this. So I was like, okay, I got something. It was like the first 3 to 4 chapters. It was about, it's about race in America. So, and everyone was like, oh. So I learned that a lot of people do wanna have these conversations. It's just when you're in the workplace environment, you, you know, you have to be careful in like what you say, how you say it, when you say it, things like that.

Mm-hmm. And then your books basically gave them An opportunity to speak about it without speaking about it.

Yeah.

Without speaking about, so it's not the elephant that is between us, but it's the book.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's, you know, it's, yeah, we have the conversations like among each other, but, you know, not to the whole office, you know, you know, I'm talking to one coworker about it and then, you know, I talked to my supervisor about it another time. So. Not like the full office, but that's kind of how that materialized.

Did you expect that, that your books would be a conversation opener?

That was the goal all along. That's the, that's the thing. It's when I started it, it was like, okay, like let's talk about certain issues and let's see where this goes. And, you know, the goal is to start the conversations, whether they're good, bad, or uncomfortable.

Mm-hmm.

And as I started writing more and more and more and more, you know, I was writing a lot of the like tougher stuff, but then, you know, as I got, you know, a little bit further into it, couple years into it, it's like, okay, you've gotta write about the lighter stuff. You know, some of the hardcore stuff, everyone's like, ooh, everyone's like, ugh. I remember one time I was at a book festival and You know, you have your books like on a, you know, on a table, whatever, 10 by 10 table, and you're sitting and, you know, you meet people, greet people, things like that. And I'll never forget, there was this, uh, this lady and like she was walking by, 'cause we're all like all lined together one by one by one. So she, she looked at my table and saw the books I had and she said, ooh, yeah, I'm not ready for that kind of stuff yet. She kept walking and I'm like, that's okay. Yeah.

According to you, what could change that? So you have your books and maybe you can give us a few because you wrote how many? 60?

60. Yeah.

6-0, just for the audience.

Yeah.

And they're all on, you call them tough topics. Where did you find your Inspiration for that?

It's really like just watching like the world and what's going on and having been in corporate America for so long, you start watching and seeing things and paying attention to, you know, the, the little details, right? So you start looking, you're in a workplace environment, you start looking at management and how tired they are and how stressed they are. Right. And all of the pressures of being in management and all of the workload that they have to do and how tired they am and how tired they are. And then there's also, I have family members who are engulfed in that corporate America and, oh, I gotta stay at work late, or, oh, I gotta do this meeting, or, oh, I gotta go to this event. And it's like, when are you taking a break from all From all that, right? To where your body starts to talk to you, starts to say, all right. And then, you know, you start seeing people and them missing the birthdays and missing the barbecues or missing, you know, so it's things like that, that, and you hear the conversations among other people, or, oh, like this person's not here today because of this, because of work or whatever the case is. So it's paying attention to just Everything that's going on around me, people, their experiences, all that stuff. So I'm very in tune.

Yeah, I can hear that. And I read a little bit of the workaholism and could really feel the mirror and made me reflect on to what extent my own priorities have been reflected in my calendar, um, over the years and what were the wake-up calls. And it is confrontation. And at the same time, I experienced as a reader that it creates a little bit of a distance because it's a novel, it's fiction.

Mm-hmm.

And I wonder how your coworkers then react, whether they find themselves in it, whether they feel provoked, they feel the mirror.

They, they might, they might, they may not like say it openly to me or anyone else, but they may think to themselves like, wait, yeah, I'm here at this office a lot, or I, I work a lot. I'm an example of it. And that's not, not even corporate America, just me in general. I've written 60 books in 8 years with a full-time job, and I have a podcast and I write blogs.

Hmm.

And I say I've overworked myself. Yeah. I did. Yeah, I did. And at the end of 2024, when I hit like my 60th book, I was like, oh yes, I did it.

That was your goal? 60 books?

Yes, that was my goal. 60 books. I set it, I think I made like that crazy decoration in like 2017. I was in the beginning phases of it and I was like, you know what? I'm gonna write 60 books.

And everyone around you goes like, you're crazy.

Well, yeah, I did have the people that were like, wait, Jamel, are you sure you wanna do that? And I'm like, yeah. Meanwhile, I had, you know, a good amount of, you know, book ideas planned out and things like that. Um, but yeah, I overworked myself like crazy and then I was like, okay. And then I said, all right, I'm retiring. I'm good. Thanks everybody. And then 2025, I was like, nope, not doing anything this year. I was like, yeah, I'm not gonna publish. I'm not gonna publish any books this year. Yeah, I lied to myself, but that's besides the point.

Hmm. What is driving you?

What is driving me? Hmm. Knowing that I have so much to give to the world with my writing and my gifts, my, my, you know, inspiring people, motivating people, getting people to think, think more about their lives, think about what's going on around them. I know that, you know, me stopping at 60, I was lying to myself. It's like I definitely have another 20 in me.

Wow.

But, you know, my Monica is to change the world one book at a time.

What do you mean by that? What is the opportunity here?

The opportunity is, you know, whether someone reads one book, 3 books, 5 books, whatever it is, um, it's whatever social issue you feel is important to you and affects you. I want to have A fictional book that you can pick up and read and say, okay, like Jamel wrote something about this. This is something that I feel in my heart also, and I'm not alone in what I'm thinking and feeling. So it's really saying, okay, like let's have a conversation about this. Like Workaholics, it's like you may or may not know someone who works entirely too much, like 14-hour days, 15-hour. That's, you know, the nature of what it's ingrained in us a lot of times. Like, oh, if you wanna be successful, you gotta work this, this amount of hours, this many hours. I see so many people in business and, you know, motivational speakers, all that stuff. All these people who say, oh, you gotta wake up early in the morning and do this and do that. And it's like, okay, but what price are you paying for that?

Mm-hmm.

Workaholics are just one of many. of my books that, you know, gives you that opportunity to, you know, look into the microscope of what your life is.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Another book I wrote, Living Life to the Fullest, that's a book with 2 characters that find out, that find out the day they're gonna die, and then all of a sudden their lives change, and then all of a sudden they start living their lives to the fullest.

Mm-hmm.

Right? So, Yeah, you just never know, you know, what book you may come across that may change the landscape of your life a little bit.

Mm-hmm.

So maybe one of my books can do that for someone.

Hmm. What do you think would it take to have a more open conversation about your books at your workplace? Because you mentioned that some are reading them, you do have some conversations, and I can imagine that it's also It can become a taboo, like, oh, he's writing about us. Oh, we've, we've read it now. Do we need to change now? We cannot unsee it.

It's funny, I was in the medical field. My supervisor would always make this joke. He's like, Jamel, don't go writing a book about us, okay? I'm like, no, I'm not doing that. Like, I was like, I'm not writing about the workplace and all that stuff. The current job I'm at now, like, not a lot of coworkers know that I write my books. The irony of it is, is they, I don't think they realized it until they connected with me on LinkedIn. And I think they're probably like, oh, so that's what you do outside of work, right? A lot of people don't know. The job that I'm currently at, you know, in banking, in banking here, yeah, they need to know every single thing you do outside of work because conflict of interest and a whole lot of other things that go on. But, um, to answer your question, it's hard in the workplace to have conversations about things because you don't want to make someone uncomfortable or you don't want there to be issues. So you kind of like thread the needle a little bit.

Yeah.

With certain things, you know, they say don't talk about religion and politics in the workplace and, you know, certain things. But, you know, a book like Workaholic too, why not have those conversations?

Yeah. Or a book about race.

Yeah. And a book about race. Yeah.

What is the point of anything not to talk about it?

Yeah. Unfortunately, a lot of social issues that Affect us in the world, people tend to sweep it under the rug and they don't wanna deal with it, or they don't wanna, you know, manage that or whatever the case is until it's at your front door. And then what? Right? Then it's too late. You didn't have that conver— you didn't have those conversations with other people. Now it's like, what do you do now?

Mm-hmm.

Right? So yeah, whether it's, Workplace or anywhere else, you, you have to, you know, have these conversations about just anything and everything, right?

How do you think would your current boss react if he, if they knew about your books and spending so much time writing books?

With my current job, I don't like talk about, about it too much, to be honest. It's just, you know. I sign into work, I do what's required, and then, you know, that's it. On my current job now, the bank's closing, so now it's just, you know, we just sit idle now until, you know, everything gets sold and then, you know, we all say our goodbyes.

There's another topic for another book.

Yeah, maybe. Uh, you never know, but Yeah, I've mentioned it to my supervisor that I, you know, write and stuff like that, but we haven't had, you know, the full intense conversations, you know, about it. My previous job, yeah, I had conversations with managers, you know, about my writing and things like that. They were more interested in like, oh, what are you writing about? Oh, you have a podcast? Oh, what's your podcast? Oh, really? Oh, okay. Yeah.

And I find this, um, opposition Well, sad because, uh, because you don't have it at the moment, but also interesting in the sense of, um, what is it that we can learn about creating connections at work by knowing more about our coworkers and using these kind of their passion project as an opportunity to connect?

Um, yeah.

So what was different in your previous workplace? But made it possible.

I know the differences. I'll explain it, right? Okay. So my job when I was in the medical field, I worked there from 2016 to 2024. So from 2016 to 2020, we were in the office, right? So we're there and I had a 4-day work week, 35 hours. So it's 9, 9, 9, 3 times, and then 8 hours on Thursday. So when you're in the office with people, you get to see people, you get to talk to people, interact, things like that. So people start asking you, oh, like, you know, different questions about what do you do outside of work or what do you do for fun and things like that when you build connections with certain people. So that was where those opportunities were for me to, you know, talk about my writing, my blogs, my podcast, things like that. Some people became interested in it and some people bought some of my books, things of that nature. 2020, 2024, we got sent home because of the world and what happened. With this current job that I'm at, it's just all remote. I don't go to the office. That's the difference. So what happens is, is I just wake up, walk in my bathroom, put on a shirt, and come sit right here and do my work. So there, I mean, yeah, we have, you know, our little Tuesday huddle meetings for like 30 minutes and we do little activities and things like that. But for me, I'm like, I'm not gonna talk about my stuff. I'm not face to face with you and I don't really know you on an interpersonal level.

Mm-hmm.

But that's, I think, where the, the contrast and, you know, the differences kind of come in when you're seeing people regularly. That's how you build the connections.

Hmm. I can see that. Yeah. And does it feel risky or vulnerable then to, to share that part of you? Right. Because I think writing is very, is a very personal process and the stuff you write is hard, as you said.

Yes. Yeah. I'm very guarded into myself. I'm pretty quiet unless I, I go into environments where I am the observer. So if I'm in a large group of people, I'm like watching, listening, observing, you know, feeling people out, things of that nature. Now there's jobs that I've had where I can't do that. Previous jobs. Yeah, that, that I, I couldn't do that at all. I had to just walk in and I'm the head honcho and this is how, you know, hey, this is what it is. But yeah, that's kind of, yeah, something that I kind of keep, you know, to myself. You can't tell everyone you, you do certain things, especially, you know, with my writing. If it's other topics, it may be a little bit easier. If it's like, I write science fiction or I write contemporary romance or, you know, stuff like that, it's like, ooh, that's pretty cool. But when it's social issues, it's when I say, oh, I write books on social issues. The first questions people always ask, like clockwork, and I do this intentionally. They say, oh, what do you write books about? Oh, I write books on social issues. I do that. And so it gets people to ask me the next question.

Mm-hmm.

Well, What type of social issues do you write about? I know it's coming every time, whether I'm in an Uber, in a Lyft, you wanna have a conversation with me, that's fine. But when I start talking, then you're gonna start going, oh, okay. You know? So yeah, it is, it, it is hard to be vulnerable and tell people, cuz you don't know how people are gonna react. You don't know what people are gonna feel. So that's why I take the time to feel people out first to say, oh, okay. Yeah, I could talk to you about that. Oh, Yeah, I could talk to you, you know?

Yeah.

I think that's what it is.

Yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

Can see that. What did it do to you to have this creative outlet beside your day job that is taking considerable amount of time?

I've been writing since I was like a kid. So the little like rhyme poetry side, I didn't, take the whole writing thing really seriously. Like, I did it for fun, right? I was just like, yeah, I'm gonna write some poems. All right, cool. Yeah. You know, it's fun. And then you write your little romantic poetry and hey, you know, give it to your girlfriend, you know, when you're in high school and she's like, oh my God, you're a poet. And I'm like, yeah, that kind of thing. And then my 20s, it was the love-hate relationship with writing. I'm like, yeah, okay. I, Yeah, I like it, but yeah, I don't love it. And then early 30s, I'm once again in corporate America. I'm working for a sports league, so I'm a basketball referee for them.

Mm-hmm.

And I work in their corporate office. And when you're doing double duty and you're not a full-time employee and you don't have medical benefits and all that stuff, yeah, you'll burn out.

Mm-hmm.

And I took a vacation, went to LA, and I'm I'm like, all right, I'm gonna hop on a plane, go to LA, get away for a little bit. 'Cause you know, you get a couple weeks in between the seasons and stuff like that before the basketball leagues start. I'm in LA and I'm like, okay, you need to figure out what you wanna do with your life. What are you good at? What are your passions? And I'm like, okay, you like writing, but do you love it enough? And I'm like, okay. And then it's like, well, what are you passionate about? And I'm like, Social issues.

Mm-hmm.

There it is. So I wasn't gonna go the route of writing it, the book, uh, a tra— in a traditional way. So I was like, let me just incorporate prose poetry with social issues. I haven't seen it. It hasn't been done the way I've done it, you know? So I'm like, okay. Um, so to write all that time, it's, it's, it's a lot. With a full-time job.

Yeah.

It's a lot with a full-time job. So it's like I was working 4 days a week and then I'd have Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. So I was just writing and writing and writing. Then I took like this little brief break and I started working on like scripts. Like I was writing like full-blown scripts. I was studying scripts and I was doing all that. And I was like, okay, we can't do both. You've gotta stick to one. And then I kind of just stuck with, you know, the writing. It's a lot. It is a lot of time. You have to be consistent and you have to be disciplined.

Hmm. Yeah.

I think that is the biggest, biggest part. You may not be motivated and you may not be inspired, but if you're consistent and disciplined, you can get a lot done. And I sacrificed a lot. Um, I didn't hang out with my friends as much at home and just Going just like typing, typing.

Yeah.

So, but here I am.

Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. And you said that you deliberately didn't choose the way that others would normally go with the book writing and publishing from the topic you chose, but I guess also you self-published the 60 books.

Yes. That's another thing. Yeah. I do it all on my own. Yeah.

Where did this decision come from and what are the pros and cons?

Ooh. Yeah. Very, very, very good question. Okay. The pros, you get to control everything. Like you get to control the narrative of just how you do your work, what platforms you wanna be on. Creating your own book covers, just doing everything, the whole, the whole process. It's just your writing, your editing, proofreading, your formatting. I was paying someone to do the formatting part until I made that declaration I was gonna do 60 books. And then in my brain I was like, yeah, Mel, that's not gonna work. Writing 60 books and paying somebody $50 to $60 every book. Mm-mm. No, we gotta cut that. So. I taught myself, I found a website and taught myself how to do that. So, and then, you know, you create the book covers on Canva and things like that. And then you find your mockup where you can like shrink the book and make it look more professional for websites and promotion and things like that. Writing the blogs, then recording the podcast and then doing your website. So yeah, the pros is you get to control every single thing.

Mm-hmm.

The cons is you have, you can just, every single thing.

Yeah.

And you're just like, woo, okay, I'm tired. It's like you publish one book and it's just like, okay, great, what's next? And that became my issue too. It became, okay, great, you published a book. Okay, cool. Next one. Okay, cool. Next. And you just get caught up in that realm. And I don't trust people. That's another, that's another issue of mine. It's like, uh, Like, uh, like, I don't trust you to edit my book. I don't trust you to format it because it's me. It's my, it's my characters I've developed. It's the verbiage. And when I'm going through edits, that sentence, oh no, let me delete that. Okay, let me change that sentence. Ooh, you know what? I can add that. Okay, that's going, that's going to make it, that chapter a little bit more juicy. I kid you not. I did that today. I was editing a book and I'm like, ooh, ooh, let me add that. Ooh, that's a good one. That, yeah, just my brain. Yep. So.

What I find fascinating was, um, that through the process and how you describe it, it, it revealed, at least that's what I interpret, it reveals your real driver for driving the book because some would write a book I am trying to write a book and my partner and friends always ask me, so why do you want to write it? And it's interesting how it evolves. And it's interesting how sometimes I have to face my shadow. Oh, is it maybe status? Is it the fact of being published, of being a published author and all of these things? And how important is it?

Mm-hmm.

To get the message across and to have, how important is it to have people read it? So all of these kind of questions that go along with it, um, get you to decide on the process, right?

Yeah. Ego drove me early on. So it's, oh, you're self-published.

Yes.

Like, I'm going to be rich. And then reality sets in. It's like, okay, no, you have to change that. You have to get outta that mindset, right? Like you have to be driven by purpose and reason for doing it. So yeah, the email that you were talking about with writing your book, I, I read over that email and I was like, I went through that when I was, When, when you're going and you're writing and then you pause and you take a break and, you know, all of that stuff. So my book series, The World We Live In, that was a very, how do I describe it? It was mentally and like spiritually tough to write that book series. The reason why is I wrote, there's 19 different characters. You know, right.

Mm-hmm.

For that whole book series. So it's, it's like short stories of what they're dealing with in their lives. So it, it's so many different social issues that I cover in that book series. So because of how aware I am of what's going on in our world, I'm putting myself in these characters' shoes. So I'm writing about some really tough subjects. I'm writing about like homelessness. I'm writing about addictions. I'm writing about assault. I'm writing about like just so many different things. So it, the LGBTQ community, like I'm writing, each character has certain social issues that they are dealing with and facing. So with that book series, when you open the book and you look at the chapters, you only know the character's name. That's it. It's just 19 names all the way down.

Yeah.

So you're just like, wait a minute. So you don't necessarily know what you're going to read until you get to that specific chapter and you start reading it. So homelessness is something that I look at like just in general, and it bothers me a lot. It hurts me to the core to see people who are homeless and dealing with things, and you start wondering what their stories are. So writing that character was a lot. I was just like, oh. And yeah, so that was where I had to like take pauses and take breaks from like writing that book series.

I can imagine.

And yeah, it gets, it gets emotional.

Mm-hmm.

And when I finished writing that book series, I was like, whew. I was like, don't do that anymore.

You have such an observational skill and worked in so many different roles. What have you learned about professionalism?

Ooh, professionalism in the workplace. A lot of times I've learned that in different environments you end up having to filter yourself.

Mm-hmm.

You don't really get to be completely who you are a lot of times because you have to, I guess, play the game as they say.

Mm-hmm.

And work your way through the system. You know, you're trying to either get a pay raise or get a promotion or look good for your supervisors or managers or whatever the case is to, you know, get other work or whatever the case is. So I think with the professionalism aspect, it's, it's a precision thing. It's, well, you gotta come into work, you've gotta hit these numbers, you've gotta be a certain way, you've gotta act a certain way, you've gotta dress a certain way. You've gotta, you know, there's just so many things you have to, you have to do. You have to follow a lot of the company policies, things of that nature. You don't fully get to be yourself, I think. Yeah.

Thank you. And then you jumped from, you were in the medical sector, now you're in banking and you were in sports before. Yeah. And I don't know where else. How did you know the, or how did you adjust then? I'm trying to figure out what is the difference in professionalism in these areas and how did you know then how to behave?

Oh yeah. So I've worked for a lot of different companies out of school. I did medical field for a couple months real quick and then left and went and did the whole sports industry for a while. So TV production for the NBA, then Radio production for Major League Baseball, and then went to a career fair and then started working as a basketball referee and then worked in retail. Yeah, I've done a lot, but mostly customer service for pretty much 15+ years. Different environments change the landscape of like who you are and like how you adjust and things like that. Some jobs I was able to be myself a little bit than others. It just depends. I would say when I was in sports, that was my love, that was my passion. So I got to be myself a little bit more. And when I talked about how I'm quiet and I'm watchful and things like that, yeah, when I was a basketball referee, mm-mm, couldn't do that. Nope. I have to walk in the gym. It's all right guys, it's time to get the game going, you know? So I have to control a full basketball game, basically, right? It's me and my partner and things of that nature. And you get to be yourself when you're refereeing, you know, the same teams, the same people. So the players get to know you, you get that decorum, you get to, you know, talk with people, things like that. So you become one of the— me and my friend became one of the top referees in the basketball league, whatever. So then came this corporate league.

Mm-hmm.

And it's certain corporations, they pay, you know, to play in the league and they get these jerseys and they have their corporation on their jerseys and it's, it's this whole thing, right? And on Wednesdays it's from 6:30 to 10:30, you know, their games and stuff like that.

What changed there?

Well, I mean, just refereeing basketball, like you, you're doing something you love.

Mm-hmm.

So that was fun. And then I went and got certified and then learned how political that is. It's a whole nother thing. Yeah. Very political, at least here. But what happened was we developed the relationships with, you know, the people who were in the corporate league. What happened was, was teams started coming back every season. But here was the thing, only me and my friend Antonio could ref their games. They would not, they were like, we do not want any other referees.

Why is that? What was different?

Because of those relationships that we built, right? So it's not just us refereeing, you know, their games and stuff like that, but they're having fun. They're enjoying it. My friend Antonio would bring his speaker. I would connect my phone to it. He'd connect his phone. We'd have music going and all of that stuff. So it's those relationships that you build, right?

So that are beyond the job description. I imagine.

Yeah. Beyond the job description. Yeah. And, you know, they didn't mind. People in corporate office didn't mind. They were just like, well, look, it's working. Like, I'd go to the office because I was working in their corporate office too. And I sat literally like 3 seats away from the manager who ran the corporate league. And she's just like, they love y'all. So that's the difference. You know, when you start in workplaces, you adjust. That's the biggest part.

What I hear, and this might be, I might making this up, is the job where you found your passion and you loved it, you found more space for being yourself and bringing your own way of doing it in it. And it was very well received because the people could feel the passion and the joy and that they wanted to work with you.

Yes. That is the difference.

Hmm.

And sometimes in, in office environments, you don't really get to build relationships with your managers. In the medical field, I did early on. My supervisor and my manager are great, but as things started to shift within the company, then my manager, you just didn't see much anymore. And then when we, yeah, we were in office and then when we shifted to working from home, I would talk to my manager once every 3 months. Every, yeah.

Because they were stressed and—

Yep. Mm-hmm.

And then it basically spilled over to the entire team.

Yep.

Mm-hmm.

Because senior management, they shifted a lot of things and then it became the analytical logistical part of the job. Now it's okay, well, now you've gotta do this, this, this, this, this, this. This is your numbers for today. This is your numbers for the week. Yeah.

And no space for creativity or your own ideas, passion.

Nope. Yeah, that's how it happens that quick. And then, and then it's like the conversations between you and your coworkers become like, okay, this is becoming way too numbers driven. And it's not those conversations of what's going on with our lives and what we're interested in and Things of that nature. So it all depends on environments that you're in.

Thank you so much for sharing a glimpse into your world and how it all connects.

Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Closing question. What would be an unprofessional advice that you would still give others? Ooh.

Ah, don't limit yourself to what you do. In the corporate world, explore, be curious on what your other talents and abilities are. We all have gifts and talents that we're great at, and we should take advantage and explore those things. That's how we build the relationships, you know, with people and how we learn and grow.

Thank you, Tuna.

Thank you so much.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.