026 - The Corporate Drag with Charlie Robertson

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

There's the quote by RuPaul, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. What this really means is, apart from when you're born, where you literally are born naked into the world, every choice after that is a choice either made for you by your parents or society. And then when you get older, choices you make. So for a CEO, they may say they have to act a certain way. I have to wear this suit. I have to be a leader in whatever way that means. And behind that basically is saying that I should be a certain way, but it's actually hiding who you really are. And so being aware of the way you show up is really powerful. And that's the same as drag, basically, and the wig you're wearing and the makeup you choose, the nails you choose, everything is an intentional choice and will have an impact on the audience. And that's the same for a CEO.

Charlie, welcome to the show. Hello, we made it.

We made it. Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a back and forth, but we finally got there. So I'm really excited to be here and to have this discussion with you today.

Me too. I'm very curious and don't want to take anything away. So, let's start with my usual invitation for you to share an anecdote of a time when you've been unprofessional.

Yes, that's a really interesting question, and I thought long and hard about this. I think for me, when was I unprofessional? And what I really, the way I define that is, you know, stepping into my own power and following, yeah, what instinctively I want to do as opposed to what I should do. And I think for me, that came 3 years ago when I decided to leave my well-paid consulting role with a clear career path and a very well-respected firm because I wanted to try and pursue this thing called facilitation.

Mm-hmm.

and try and be a freelancer and see if I could do it. And at the time that felt really scary because it felt, oof, is this a wise move? You have a mortgage, you have responsibilities. Why would you give up this quote unquote very prestigious job, which is hard to get? And it was hard to get originally, but something in me was just like, go for it, give it a go. Your life is short, your career is long, and you should take these risks at times. So I think that was the moment where I was like, I'm not gonna listen to anyone else. I'm gonna try this thing. It is a leap of faith, but trust yourself and your instincts.

And I'll be a little bit provocative here. It's courageous, yes. But what made it unprofessional?

So what made it unprofessional, I guess, and we'll get more into this topic now, is using my drag as part of my career and practice. So before, I kept my creative life very separate from my work life. So, you know, drag was a fun— my drag persona, Charlene Coco, was a fun thing I did outside of work in nightlife. But I really realized there was actually quite a lot of power in bringing it into quote-unquote professional spaces. And we'll get more into this, but playing with the idea of drag, and they were all in drag every day, and actually speaking in front of a group of people at work. So that felt unprofessional in some way, because I think people associate drag with, and rightly so, like a fun nighttime activity or, you know, a fun Pride event, but not really thinking about it in terms of how it can help us work in our daily roles. So it felt unprofessional. I definitely found posting about it on LinkedIn like quite confronting because it did feel unprofessional in some way. And I still to this day like have to go through the, the process of, no, this is cool what you're doing, it's really unique and no one else is doing it, so lean into that instead of shying it away. But that's still something I battle with at times.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and unpacking it already a little bit. And I, I'm curious because you say drag is, has a connotation of unprofessionalism because it's a nighttime activity and it's fun.

Mm-hmm.

And it's a very specific nighttime activity for a man to dress.

Yes.

As a woman, what held you back in making this part of your professional identity and what made you switch your perspective or approach?

So I think before I went freelance, I always tried to keep it very separate and didn't talk about it at work. Would only share it with people I really trusted or was close with or close personal friends, but didn't really talk about it outside of that. And then, but the more I realized was, you know, drag in itself is a form of community and bringing people together and having conversations you wouldn't normally have. And I experienced that in nightlife. And I realized like that's something you could do more in the workplace. And it's also one of the most interesting things about me and makes me stand out. So, you know, always when I would tell someone that, you get an amazing reaction. And I was like, so this is about sharing more of my story and who I am as opposed to like shying away from that. And then what really pushed me to do it more was, you know, I then started being a freelancer. So I was doing a lot of team days, trust-building workshops with companies, offsites, retreats where you bring people together to talk about, you know, how can they work more effectively or collaborate more effectively together. And a way to stand out was to bring drag into that because it makes me unique. It's different from others. And I also think there's a powerful message there. So it's only in the last year or so that I've started to bring it more in. And before, I would bring drag in at, you know, Pride events for companies. We do a lot of work around Pride. So that is more of your standard, like, you know, games, bingo, fun party events. But then about a year ago, I was like, no, there's something more here. I think I had this idea for a title for a talk called Why We Should All— What CEOs Can Learn from a Drag Queen. I really sat down and was like, okay, what is there? Is there something there? Um, and then slowly from, from that, like, I have been trying to build this out more.

Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I, I definitely double-click on that. Um, and the more I've been thinking about the idea of drag as a costume and the corporate workplace wearing their very own costumes and the mask, the more I'm fascinated. And so I will park this for just a moment longer.

Sure.

To explore something that you said, because I think that resonates with a lot of people and it takes more courage than we, we think. And I wonder why that is, or my idea why that is. You mentioned that it's maybe the most interesting part of you, and still you kept it secret. You kept it a part of your professional identity, um, and only told a very few people. And I can see how it is maybe the most interesting part of you, but also the most vulnerable because that's the most real part, the one you care the most. And then being judged for it, dismissed for it is a real risk.

100%. Yeah. I think any creative pursuit, or differentiator one has. It's obviously something very unique, but it also puts you in a vulnerable position. I think people who are the non-dominant group, so it can be anyone from a different minority or women in the workplace as well, experience this a lot. It can be scary to put your head, in English we say, above the parapet to kind of make yourself stand out. And there is this tendency to make yourself smaller or to fit in because then you won't be judged as much or people will accept you more. And I think people who have experienced a lack of acceptance at times or a perceived lack of acceptance, the pull to kind of fit in is strong because it feels less risky, right? And so that's definitely something I've experienced. I think, starting out in my career, I was like, no, I should be this way. It really goes to what you're talking about, right? A professional looks like this, dresses like this, acts like this. And that's all well and good if that comes naturally to you. But I think there's a lot of connotations, but also a set of fixed ideas of what a professional is. And I thankfully think that is changing. But I think when one thinks of a CEO or a professional, in an office, there's still an image I think that is conjured up.

Yeah. Yeah. And what comes up for me is that as a queer person, we experience from the very beginning of our lives that we are somehow different.

Yeah.

Whether we've come out or not yet, something is different. And then it costs so much energy to try to fit in and to hide that. And then on the other hand, once we dare and come out, not necessarily sexually, but just with our own identity, there's so much to win on the other side.

Yeah, 100%. And actually, I would go even further and say, it's not just one coming out. Like, I still feel it's a daily practice. I have to tell myself, I know this is, this is you. And this is, you shouldn't shy away from that. And I think as queer people, it's It is a daily struggle or something we have to battle with because we have from a young age internalized that we are different and that maybe that's a risk. So I think there is still practices you have to do in yourself to keep yourself from, as we call it, code-switching, which is where you hide parts of yourself or highlight different elements of yourself to fit in with the dominant group. A lot of ethnic minorities face this a lot as well. And so, yeah, and especially in some certain work cultures, you know, that is a real risk, or that is, you know, actually coming out really could affect your professional life depending on the culture you're in. And so there is this thing of shying away from it or hiding it. And that doesn't mean that everyone has to be, you know, it's completely up to your personal choice how you want to show up at work. And you're not, you're not obliged to tell anyone anything you don't want to, but if it's like holding you back or making you feel small, then that is an issue.

Yeah. And a potential loss for the company or the team.

100%.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing a little glimpse into your experience with that. So, what can a CEO learn from bragging?

Well, that is the million-dollar question. I think like the way to think about it is, there's the quote by RuPaul, we're all born naked and the rest is drag. So at a baseline level, what this really means is, you know, apart from when you're born, when you literally are born naked into the world, every choice after that is a choice either made for you by your parents or society. And then when you get older, yeah, choices you make. So that is in the way you behave, the clothing you wear, the choices you make around the people you surround yourself with, the roles you take on in your life. So not just professionally, but as a father-son, brother-mother, sister, et cetera, best friend. And so understanding already that every choice is intentional and you can change these choices is powerful, right? So for a CEO, they may say they have to act a certain way, right? So I have to wear this suit, I have to come across strong, I have to be a leader in whatever way that means. And Behind that basically is, is saying that, you know, I should be a certain way, but it could actually be hiding who you really are. Right. And so being, being aware of, yeah, the way you show up is really powerful. And that's the same as drag, basically, and the wig you're wearing and the makeup you choose, the nails you choose, like everything's an intentional choice, and will have an impact on the audience. And that's the same for a CEO.

Hmm, I love that. And it makes me realize that I think we have to take a step back.

Yeah.

Of what is drag and how do you create your character? Because from what I hear now, it's a very intentional crafting and development choice.

Yeah, and the beautiful thing about drag is, you know, the experimentation from the very start. Like, you don't come out the first time you try to put makeup on or a wig, it's not gonna be, A great look because it takes practice and it takes time to refine, especially the makeup. Everyone's face is different. I have such reverence for makeup artists because you have to really work out what works for your face. And then it also comes down to the styling and the clothing. And it's an evolving process still now, and there's not a fixed identity, but you work out what fits you well, what makes you comfortable, what reaction do you get from the audience? And it's this constant process of refining, right?

Mm.

But I think the beauty of drag is there's also kind of an irreverence for, you know, it's kind of questioning what gender is, and it's questioning the way society says what a man should be or a woman should be. And that questioning is quite punk rock in itself, because you're kind of challenging the norms of society and challenging, you know, questioning why should it be this way, or why can't a man put a huge wig on, or Or a woman, if they're doing being a drag king, you know, put a mustache on, etc. So it's kind of laughing and questioning, you know, why is society saying we should be like this? And you can apply that similarly to a leadership role. Okay, the last leader was like this, or this is how it's been perceived in the past. But maybe I want to do it a different way. And I have a different approach to it.

And then you can also try and test and Evolves your character.

Exactly.

And then I'd be curious, what part is you and your own identity that you are trying to express with your drag character? And how much is the audience, the, their reaction, their expectations?

I think it's like a symbiotic relationship, right? So you feed off the energy you're getting from the crowd, but equally, you as a performer need to be putting out a lot of energy in order to get the reaction back, right? I think a way to think about it is the audience wants you to succeed. So even if you're nervous, I always think about that if I'm nervous before performance, the audience is there to have fun and a good time and wants you to succeed. So they're willing you to do well. And so going out and getting that first few seconds of a song or whatever you're doing on stage, is powerful because then it can calm you down because you're like, okay, great. Like the audience is with me. I've gone for it on stage. I'm giving all this energy and then hopefully you receive it back. So it should be a nice kind of volley between both, if that answers your question.

Yeah. And another question, when I heard you saying the audience wants you to succeed, then we're thinking, huh, a CEO, does the audience really want them to succeed always? And I was thinking of the difference. And suddenly what came to my mind is the audience wants you to succeed as a drag because it's so vulnerable and you're daring to show yourself and you're prepared.

Yeah. And I think the best leaders, right, are the ones who are vulnerable and daring and say, you know, this is difficult. You know, we're under a lot of pressure right now and the world is in a crazy place. Prices are going up, et cetera. And leaning into that vulnerability and saying, yeah, this is hard and I get it and I don't have all the answers. You know, I think for a CEO, the pressure cascades down, right? Especially they'll have shareholders saying the profit's not as good as it was last quarter or last year. Why is that? And so then they have pressure and they push that down into the team. But the best leaders I've definitely experienced in my career are the ones who are able to be vulnerable and talk about experiences where they've struggled or Yeah. Admit where failure happens. I think a big part of this is psychological safety. And one of those things is being safe to admit mistakes and learn from those going forward. And that starts with leadership role modeling that behavior.

Yeah. And owning yourself and how you relate to the others, your decisions, how you show up.

Yes.

Then we are back at drag.

Yeah. So that's the a really nice parallel between the two. That's what I'd say. I think as well, like, we actually— the, the work we do now is more as well, not just with leadership but also with teams, because I think there's also a strong component for like junior members at first when they join the company to do a form of work drag that doesn't feel authentic to them, right? So I feel I definitely did this when I started my career. Oh, I should be this way. So actually using a form of drag that's concealing rather than revealing who they are.

Mm-hmm.

And that again can lead to psychological stress or burnout if they're not, if people feel they're not showing a side of themselves that feels authentic to them or not saying what they really need.

Yeah, because you're always, you're hiding one part by highlighting another part. Yeah, make some parts of yourself very big through this other character. Charlene, is it Charlene?

Charlene, yeah.

Through Charlene. And so that you basically have 2 compartments.

Yeah.

What has it done to you as a, as a person and as a professional?

So I think Charlene and Charlie are very close. That's why the name's basically the same. There's not much difference between us. Back in the day, Charlene really was a way for me to feel more comfortable in queer spaces. Like, I think originally when I was younger, I was like quite uncomfortable being Charlie and like, gay bars or LGBT spaces. And so Charlene was like a really powerful way for me to be seen in spaces but not be seen, if that makes sense. Like, could hide behind Charlene. And now, you know, Charlie's very confident themselves and as myself in the space. So they're kind of more on par in terms of confidence levels. If anything, like, Charlene gets a bit more scared if she goes into a workspace now because it's still that battle of like, oh, how are people going to perceive me? I think in revealing more, what it's made me— it is vulnerable because what it makes you realize is you're not going to be for everybody. Like, I have to— and like, that is something I'm still unlearning. The older I get, you know, I'm 34 now, it's like, it's okay, not everyone's gonna want what you're doing or love you in the same way or get it, and that's fine. But that's something that still, as a people pleaser, and I think comes from queer person wanting to fit in, like, I still battle with that sometimes. Oh God, what are people going to think? And it's like, it's okay. Some people won't get it or don't want to know about it or think it's kind of weird, and that's okay. But it's that constant reminder to myself of what you're doing is courageous and brave, and not everyone has to like it.

And I find it fascinating how you use the costume to find confidence by Becoming someone else who of course is confident, right, in their own quirk, and then to elevate this quirkiness. And I was thinking of what you shared about the new team member or the first job where you will buy the most expensive costume or tie or the leather shoes and then walk into the space with this elevated confidence. Because of the costume, because of the corporate drag.

100%. Yeah, we do in, in the talk we give, you know, because there is an element of fake it to make it, right, in some way. And one of the questions we always ask is, is there one thing you do to like turn up your confidence, to like turn up the confidence in your work drag persona? And the answers are always really amazing, like really interesting. One person said, you know, they'll be at home they've got a really important meeting and they're taking it from home, they'll put on their highest heels, walk around the flat feeling themselves, and then sit down for the meeting. Another one said the more rings she has on, the more stressed she is, but it gives her power. And so there may be one or two things that can really help in those moments where we're like, can I do this? Or the imposter syndrome's strong, that does give you that confidence, right? I wonder if you have one.

Um, it's very interesting. I think one that comes to my mind that's actually from ways back at the beginning when I started podcasting, I knew that the having the microphone in front of me kind of put me into this podcast headspace. And then for a very long time, whenever I had an important meeting, I would need, I would put the podcast, the microphone in front of me because it's a reminder.

Wow.

And I think now is, is similar. I would also put on nice clothes where I feel comfortable in my body. I would maybe put on makeup, but then it's interesting. I recently realized, or I wondered, asked myself how much of the makeup I'm putting on for video call or training, how much is it for me and how much is it Out of the assumption that I have to do that because it's unprofessional as a woman to show up without makeup to a meeting or to a training that I'm hosting.

Hmm. Interesting.

So that's the expected drag.

And do you, have you landed on which, which side it is more?

I think it's a mix of both. I think it's mostly, there is a sort of expectation. Because, um, you see whether someone puts some effort in before they're meeting other people. And I think, and I wonder whether this then is part of the phenomenon that you shared, that the audience wants you to succeed as a drag because they can see all the effort that went into it, the, the costume, the makeup, the music, the show, and then they're supportive.

Yeah.

And if you don't see that the CEO is putting any effort in, is not taking it seriously, it's more difficult to support them.

Yeah, that is such an amazing point. Yeah, I mean, it comes down to this question of empathetic and leadership or vulnerable leadership. You can feel very quickly whether a CEO is just caring about the financial aspects, right? And are they really there to support the team and make the team thrive? And I think that comes down to whether they're putting effort in, right? I suppose that's a big, big driver.

Yeah.

So, I think that's a really incredible link that I hadn't even made before, but I think that's really powerful in terms of, yeah, you want to get behind a leader who is there, who, you know, cares for the team and cares for the wellbeing of the team as well and has your interests at heart, not just the shareholders.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And there are ways how we can express that through the way we show up.

Exactly.

Have you ever experienced that Charlene has created distance between you and other people instead of connection?

Good question. No, I don't think so. Other than, I'm just thinking specifically in like nightlife, you know, that you're very much like the performer versus the audience. So it can be once you're not performing, you're just in the crowd chilling, some people may be scared to come up to you. So that could be an interesting— or maybe intimidated, or especially if people don't know you very well or not so familiar with drag, you know, it can be a bit little confronting. So it could be that. And also, I guess it can create a distance if people don't understand it.

Hmm.

So for example, my dad, he is very supportive and loves me and everything I'm doing, but he's just never been exposed to drag. So sometimes he'll call it my Britney thing because I used to do a Britney Spears number. And so it's not really a distance, but it's an acceptance from my side and from his side that maybe there's a slight uncomfortableness with it. But he's still supportive. So I don't know if that counts as distance, but, you know, also just accepting people where they're at. You know, some people just won't understand it. But in terms of like performing or bringing it into workspaces, it normally creates connection and gets people to think outside of their day-to-day, which is really what I want to do, and have the conversations that you don't normally have. And I find drag's a really powerful tool for that because, you know, if I'm showing up in a full dress and a wig, I think it gives permission for others to, yeah, be brave as well and share things they wouldn't otherwise share. So kind of role modeling a way to be— I mean, that's partly why I love drag in the first place, right? Like, there's so much joy looking at someone kind of be on stage and like live their fantasies. Like, there's something so empowering around that.

Yeah.

In whatever form that may be. And that's not just like drag queens, that's drag kings, that's also drag aliens, club kids, you know, really outside of like any type of, yeah, gender binary or gender, or even gender, could be agender. And that's amazing to see someone just like live their fantasy out on the stage. And it's inspiring. And I'm inspired by drag every day. And I think that really applies to workplace as well. If you see someone who's a leader and is like fearless and is going for something and there's a risk, or, you know, and they're being honest about the vulnerability. It could be a business owner, but it also could be, you know, your manager. Like, that's really inspiring. Or an education leader. You want to be around that energy.

Yeah. What's your take on authenticity in this context?

Great question. Authenticity to me is a funny one because authenticity to me is not a fixed state of being. I think we can get really stuck on the idea that I'm being authentic, it means a fixed rigid thing. And the reality is we are different in different situations and doesn't mean we're less authentic in one than the other, right? The role I play as a brother is different to the role I play as leading an offsite of 150 people is different to the role I play in coaching people. So Charlie has different parts of myself that I highlight and lowlight depending on the situation I'm in. And I think it can be damaging to say, I am one way, I am one thing, I'm one identity. I have values, I have personality traits, I have ideas, but I don't have a fixed sense of what is authentic and what is not to me.

So as long as this integrity or this alignment to your values is intact, then the expression of it can change.

Yeah, exactly.

Without harming authenticity.

Yeah. What do you think about that?

I can see that. And I think it's very, it's liberating because I was thinking about the distance versus proximity, the invitation to be more daring in your approach and sharing. When approaching a drag queen as opposed to feeling the distance you had with your dad. I was wondering whether it has to do with authenticity and can see that people would feel invited to share maybe their more vulnerable, authentic self when talking to a drag queen because it's like, yeah, they have the permission to do that. And by appearance, the drag queen is open to it.

100%. Yeah. It gives people permission to, yeah, open up, open up different parts of themselves. And yeah, that's an interesting one, like showing up more authentically or, yeah, I just think be another way to think about it is just not being scared to show parts of yourself that you otherwise wouldn't. Right. I think that's another way to say it because there may be a version of yourself that's authentic at work, which is still different from the authentic version of yourself.

Yeah.

in family. And I think I want to be very careful in saying, like, I'm not saying that you have to show up and reveal things about yourself that are very personal to you in the workplace. Like, I would never say that. In fact, I'd say be smart in what you reveal. But yes, so be intentional about it. Like, also, some people may take this as, I'm going to be authentic at work, and that actually comes at the cost of being kind to others. And that's definitely not what I'm saying either. You don't want to be, yeah, being honest to a point of losing personal care, right? So it comes down to this Radical Candor idea of framework. Yeah, you still need to be careful in your words and your actions. So there's a fine line there as well in a work setting.

Yeah, although I can see if you stick to the— to your earlier definition or explanation that it's— you stick to your values. Then it is, then it's not about lashing out and just being immature. Yeah.

I want to say as well, like, I guess one other point I think is very important here is like, you know, this is also like a business critical issue. Like if people don't speak up, they're holding back ideas, feeling ignored and disengaged. And this is ultimately like bad for business, right? Or innovation. So I do want to say as well, you know, This is not just a nice-to-have. This is something that's very important. And I think a lot of teams understand this, right? That having a work culture where people can show up in a way that feels good to themselves, they're able to contribute ideas, is really important. And it really comes down to this idea of psychological safety, which I'm sure you've touched a lot on before. And I think it comes down to 2 factors in some ways in a work context. Kind of making sure that there's kind of equality in people being able to take turns in conversation and in meetings and people being able to speak up. But it also requires as well, like, something called ostentatious listening. So allowing people to really feel like they've been heard. I think that's a really important part of this as well. So then people feel more safe to show up and say, well, I think this, or this is a really important thing to me and I think we should— pursue this angle. So yeah, I just wanted to highlight like the, the business imperative here as well.

If they do have, if they feel that they have permission to bring their whole, whole selves to work.

Yeah.

Yeah. I would be curious to hear from you, your experience since you made the shift and whether, because in my, in my imagination, it's like, oh, you You reconcile yourself, you bring out your passion into the world as also from a professional business perspective, and this creates then opportunities. What's been that impact on your business and reactions from your network?

Yeah, so it's actually been really, really positive. It's, we're still trying to grow this and see what it looks like. So we've done a number of talks, but I've already been flown internationally for this, so it feels like it's quite exciting in some ways. The reaction's been very positive, and people can enter the talk not being tentative, but leave feeling they experienced something special. And that's really what I want to do. So, the impact's been overwhelmingly positive. And while it still at times can feel scary, I'm like, oh gosh, are people going to like this? Or how are people going to react to this? So far, it's been— Yeah, a really great experience. And now I just want to see how far I can grow it and sell it and push it and have impact really as well. That's the key thing, right? And how do we take it past, yeah, a moment of inspiration to also really embedding this into work cultures as well? So that's kind of the path I'm on at the moment.

What I find so beautiful in that is that it is deeply personal and so vulnerable because of the risk for rejection. And at the same time, it is a lived experience you invite others to learn from in a way that is adjusted to their own experience without forcing them into a space that's not theirs.

Mm-hmm.

Because I'm, I'm thinking of Many workshops or leadership trainings that would use costumes to step into different personas and to play it out. And there's lots of value in that. And still to tap into something that is so provocative because it means highlighting parts of your own identity that are usually not seen.

Definitely. I like this, the, the, what you're saying here as well as like using this concept as well for drive even more empathy. So like stepping into the drag of someone else, I think it's an interesting angle to it too, which is just sparking another aha moment for me.

Tell me more about that.

Well, just as you're speaking, I'm thinking, again, this is always so nice, like it's expanding my ideas of like how to use the concept further. But, you know, a big part of authentic and all like, you know, great leadership, I think, is being able to have a lot of empathy and understanding of what the team's going through. And also on an individual basis, what each member's dealing with. And maybe a way to do that is to ask them to step into the drag of a middle manager versus the intern versus whatever the team makeup is, and getting to think about it from their angle. I have done exercises like this before, like the empathy wheel is an exercise I've done where you get people to stand around the room and But the element of drag is an interesting addition to it as well around this idea of personas, I think.

Which makes me think of—

No one steal that, by the way. No, I'm joking.

I was just joking. I've done activities where we would copy the way of walking of other people and then basically feeling how, getting a real good embodied sense of how they must feel. And then I think, yeah, get going even a step further.

Yeah.

By stepping into someone's drag. Okay. So how does it feel if I wear these high heels before a call? How do I feel wearing so many rings that somehow might become an armor in itself, but also maybe some, what's the heaviness means?

100%.

Yeah.

I really like that too. Yeah. So I think it can be played there and I also think there's a, Another area that I'm interested in exploring around on this idea of like, what are the small things you can do to make you feel more powerful or more confident? It's kind of workshopping that as well. So using different personas to, for example, with presenting, okay, present it in a style that a CEO would versus a manager or, and kind of getting more confident with putting on different personas. So then when it comes to actually you yourself presenting, you feel you've got it because you've done it in different ways or silly voices or whatever. So it's like a way to train people as well, I think, is a really nice angle there too.

Where would you see the difference between stepping into your drag as opposed to trying on a different persona?

So that's a great question. So I think, you know, it also can be that you're experimenting yourself. You know, I'm going to try on this role. How does it feel? Versus— so that can be, you know, an experiment for yourself, especially if you're more junior. But I think trying on a persona would be for a short exercise, or you're giving it a go, while stepping into your own drag is like really listening to what you need and what your body wants and what, you know, what are your inner strengths and leaning into those and your own personal stories.

And how important is then to have, to have it separate? So that you're stepping in and out of drag, or is there a moment where it becomes one and it's difficult to disentangle?

I think, yeah, if we go on the premise that you're always doing drag, so already the foundation is you're doing it right now. So it's more a process of interrogation of the way I am currently showing up in the workplace, for example. Is that sitting well with me, or have I got that like knot in my— it's really about like listening to it, but have I got that knot in my stomach where I'm afraid to speak up. Sorry, there's a barge going past. I'm afraid to speak up. I'm not able to say what I think properly, or like, I'm not showing a side of myself that I really want to show because actually this is where I'd thrive. So I think it's about going back to this idea of concealing versus revealing, like really having an internal look of, is the way I'm acting and showing up actually something that feels right for me?

Thank you. What's something unprofessional that you would still advise others to do?

That is the million-dollar question. What I would say to that is, and actually I just want to, because I have thought about this a bit, I just want to see what I wrote here. I think what I would say is don't wait for others to give you permission to dive in and try and be a version of yourself that you want to be. I think a lot of the time we can get stuck in what we should be. And I say, You're braver than you think. And so surround yourself with people who are going to champion you as much as you can. And that can be on a small level in a workspace in order for you to potentially show a side of yourself that you haven't yet. So I think that would be my one. I would say like, career's long, so take the risks and don't wait for others to give you permission to show up in a way that feels good to you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.