025 - The Courage to Be Fully Human at Work with Mariam Halfhide

What happens if we dare to tear off the mask of professionalism and actually risk showing up for real? I'm your host, Myriam Hadnes, and this is Unprofessionalism.

If anything's there, I would actually put a lot of my own projects aside and manage those expectations and then make sure that my people are helped. That's a deliberate choice that I had to make, like, hey, what kind of leader do I want to be in that sense? And this has to do also with putting this human to human first, like sitting in a discomfort of someone else's emotion. There's real time going into that and that time that you cannot put in your billable sheet, right? Whether good or bad, that's my own internal decision that I made there and it might be not successful for my career. It might be, I don't know, but I value the mutual trust and relationship that you built in the process.

Myriam, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

I'm very, very excited about this conversation after our exploration call, speaking about you doing AI strategy and focusing on the human-to-human connection. I'm like, ah, that's an interesting conversation, interesting combination. And I'll just jump right in and invite you to share a story with us when you've been unprofessional.

Ah, a story when I've been unprofessional. I feel like, uh, I've only, uh, lately I'm, I'm, I'm getting the counter on these unprofessional stories, but I have one in mind and that one is Really personal to me actually. And maybe also something that I would doubt, like, hey, shall I share this on a podcast? But it came up and I was thinking with myself like, hey, but this is really your experience, right? Like, this is really something you went through. And so it is part of your truth. So there's nothing to be ashamed of to share that, even if it's unconventional, let me put it this way. And this has been something that I've shared in a professional environment. What I would not have expected I would've shared. And it had to do with the fact that I think it was back in 2017, so quite a while ago, I was, you know, running like a chicken without a head, like with very strong sense of purpose and this feeling like, okay, yeah, you know, for very long it was my diploma, diploma, diploma. And then I got the diploma and I started working 60 to 80 hours a week in the financial sector. And I was feeling like, Is this it? You know, is this life? Like, there's got to be something more, right? This can't be it. And very, this sense of like, okay, there's got to be something more for me. And yeah, in some path, some way or another, I got onto this TED Talk about psychedelic shamanic medicine from ancient tribes from Amazon. So the medicine is called ayahuasca. I was talking with a friend of mine about, I don't know, meaning of life and philosophizing all of these things. And then I mentioned like, hey, I heard about this. And she calls me back and she tells me like, hey, I found a retreat in the Netherlands and I'm going to go. And I was like, oh my God, okay, interesting. So I waited until she went and then I went myself. And that experience I think completely changed the way I look at life, but not just by itself. It's not just the experience itself, but it's also the process it awakens. And of course, it is also up to you whether you choose to do something with that process. And that later, it also kind of triggered the process of, okay, what type of job do I want to have, right? So I was asking the question wrongly. I was asking like, what's my purpose? What's my purpose? And then it was like, I should be asking, who am I? Who am I want to be? And then what type of life suits that? And then it will unfold naturally. And this job that came to me that I'm also like having now actually is also like a consequence of that, of approaching the whole interview process differently, what I need, what I want differently from a job. But the essence of that was since I lived in many different countries, I know really well how to adapt in general. It's quite, I've moved a lot, I've seen a lot of different cultures. I adapt really well, but I also needed to learn like to not adapt no matter what. So there are some situations that are like, no, this is my boundary and I'm gonna adapt up until now and not further because otherwise it's like, I guess my own authenticity in a way. And that is also something I was looking in a job culture, if I'm really honest. And that's kind of what became apparent of that. So we, within the, within the interview process, being able to share like, hey, it's not only about whether I'm a good fit for an organization. Well, turns out oftentimes I am because I adapt really well, but it's also about whether the organization is a good fit for me. And for me, it meant being able to tell these type of stories. For me, it meant especially the organization I was working previously, it was very much like, um, drinking culture, let's say. And I just don't drink alcohol. I just, it's not my thing. And, you know, I would really look weirdly in a way, like, how come you don't drink like just a beer or just a wine? And so that really wasn't a fit. And I wanted to feel comfortable in a culture where people are more open-minded, where people are like, oh, okay, that's interesting that you do that. It's not conventional, but tell me more about it.

So just to understand, so you The unprofessional bit is that you would, in a job interview, you would as much interview the interviewers and you would tell them in the interview that you did ayahuasca?

Not in the interview. No, that came later when, well, if it would have come up, if I'm really honest, if it would have come up from a natural perspective, because it's not like something I walk like, oh, it's for sale. I did that. I was like, you know, hey everybody. No, that was definitely not like that. It was more of If the conversation comes up with somebody, like oftentimes in a one-on-one setting or during a drink or just a bila, and it would be more about other aspects than just work, or if people make a remark like, hey, how come you're so, you know, aware of yourself, you know, or how come you're like these type of questions, then they would lead like, hey, yeah, I had this profound psychedelic experience. that completely changed my life. Yeah, then I would not lie about that. And before, in like previous job, it would really be something I would struggle. Oh, if I tell them, they would put me like in some junkie box, think that I'm something else. And that's exactly how I felt. That's also the reason I left the previous job because I had the experience at the previous job. And then I was like, oh, but I cannot just be myself. Like I'm having this mask of In that sense that I didn't want to have at my current job.

Yeah.

And I don't actually. Yeah.

And it's, um, it's funny. I can relate to that. Um, I also did ayahuasca a couple of times. Um, and it does something to you in terms of, and I wonder whether this relates to you as well, in terms of removing the judgment against ourselves. And the moment we don't judge ourselves anymore, we don't fear other people's judgment as much, maybe?

Maybe. Yeah, I think there's something to it, but then there's also this part of authority, right? There's also this part of, let's say, invisible power dynamic that can still intervene because you're like, ah, I don't want to lose my job, or I don't want to— and then there's also this step of, I think, loving yourself enough to be able to tell and indeed loving yourself is also like not having a judgment for yourself. To be able to tell like, yeah, I, you know, this is, this is me.

Mm-hmm.

Whatever it is that you choose, that it is you. And that's not, you don't want to compromise that. And it is very hard, I think, if you're, you know, it's easy to like all the nice parts about yourself and all the things that you like about yourself. It's harder when you're actually, you know, confronting things that you're like, uh, Our shadows.

Yes.

Ah, yeah. It's very easy. Uh, yeah.

And you, you mentioned, you called the previous employer, um, that they had a drinking culture.

Mm-hmm.

And I would be curious to hear what it did to you, how you felt in this drinking culture as someone who doesn't drink. Because what I find fascinating, that's another layer of unprofessional, I think, that it's very professional to get drunk together. But it's unprofessional to talk about your feelings or to talk about spiritual experiences.

Yeah.

So what was your experience in this culture, drinking culture, as a non-drinker?

I'm not belonging. It was just not my, not my place. That's how it felt because I couldn't be open. It's not about just, I don't drink. It's also about, let's say I would have, because I had the same situation here where I work right now. Right. So that's, can also, they drink, uh, like a Friday afternoon drinks or whatever. And. They're like, hey, you're not drinking a beer, you know, is it just water or whatever? And then I do like to be myself and be able to say like, you know, to each their own thing. You know, I may be more of a cannabis person. I'm not so much an alcohol person and that's okay. And there's no, and then I wasn't able to do that because already at the previous company, there was already judgment around other things, right?

Yeah.

So there was already this idea and I think that's, a large discrepancy for a lot of people. Like, hey, if you're, let's say, a cannabis user, then this is the associated image with that. But hey, you don't look anything like that. You actually have your life in order and you do all of these stuff. Like, you know, it's how come? And of course you can argue, I think, uh, very, how do you say it? Like, like it has a place for that argument when you would say like, but it's still like an external factor in your life. And of course you can, you know, there's, there's all different choices that people make about that for life, whether it's cigarette, cannabis, alcohol, whatever. But yeah, it's to me that is also sometimes, yeah, you should not run from your emotions or from regulating your nervous system. Sometimes you don't have that time right away, especially with 3 kids and working. And sometimes you need something maybe right away just to be not the irritated mother around your kids, for example, and be more present. And for those times, I would still use it. And it doesn't mean that I'm running away from my feelings, but I still need to come back and regulate.

Yeah.

All stress I had from the day. But at that moment, when I don't have the time, I can allow it.

Yeah. And it's this, the nuance to it that, um, of why we use substances and why it's professional in some contexts and unprofessional in others. And I'm sure there might be someone in the audience where, did she say the C word?

Yeah. But also like, yeah.

And then thinking, okay, just because one substance, alcohol, is socially accepted, highly professional, especially amongst consultants, right? Who work, as you mentioned, the 60 to 80 hours weeks and to numb maybe. And then what are the other substances that we use consciously to Regulate our nervous system. And then suddenly there's judgment around that.

Yeah.

I find it's very interesting. And then it might obviously be related to the cultural context that in the Netherlands where it's tolerated, legalized, but even there, there might be judgment.

Of course. Yeah. There. And there's also, I think there's just also a certain system, right? Whether it's allows for it or not, but I was really looking for an organization that would be more open-minded in, in that sense.

Hmm.

Culturally, so that I could be more of myself and show those parts because you're such a, your work just sees very limited part of you essentially, right? You're so much broader and more with your family. You're a completely different person with your friends. You're a completely different person. Like no, not one person has this whole overview of you. Not even you sometimes do, right?

Yeah.

So that's, yeah, it's really jumping fast into conclusions sometimes if you make that. You're behind it. You don't want to be labeled as something that you actually know you're not, but then that's the thinking pattern of most people.

Yeah.

In their association.

And then I'm curious, so you interviewed the companies that were interviewing you to see whether If I understand correctly, you'd feel comfortable whether they would allow you to be fully you.

Yeah.

How did they react to that? So maybe you can share a little bit this process because I can imagine that it's a bit scary at the beginning. Can I do that? Can I give myself permission seeing maybe their reactions, whether they're open or not? And yeah.

You know, at that point when I was interviewing, I didn't feel like I had a lot to lose. Felt like an experiment. Oh, I'm going to break through this. I'm just going to do it differently this time than I did before. And I was lucky enough to be in a field that is very, you know, popular in a way. And there are a lot of popular in terms of job market so that it felt like, okay, let's just see what is out there, you know, what type of experience. And then if I'm being myself to begin with, I will be better. able to assess, hey, what is a better fit for me? And it was like, because also now while being on the other side, while you're interviewing someone, I would much rather see someone like who's real, right? Real someone who are with, with the weaknesses or what, and that's not even weaknesses, but with all the, you know.

Yes. And I would be now super curious how you manage this Full yourself, 100%, because you, you seem like someone who is, who's very self-aware, who has fully embraced herself. And I'm sure there are ups and downs because you're human after all, I suppose. So how do you bring that to work? So you're managing a team.

Yeah.

How does it play out to be fully human with them?

Sometimes it feels like a leap of faith in sense that So to be human, fully human is not an issue in that sense, right? The connection can be created that, so that part may be even very good and you see, but then there's also this part when you're like, also have responsibilities in terms of running everything and financials and all of that. So that also still stays. So there's this, this—

You mean they're billables?

Oh, they're billables. Yeah. They're on a project, like, and not the sale, the department is just doing well, right? So there are people on a project and so there's, like still this balance because yeah, you can say we have very, you know, masculine leaders that are on the bottom line and all of that and there's no human aspect, but if you have just the fully human leader that is everything around the person very serving and maybe even facilitative, but there is also no, but like nothing, yeah, then I do like, I don't think that there's still some balance needed there in terms of boundaries because it's like having space with boundaries in a way within that space, like with children in essence as well. Leadership is not very much different from parenthood, it seems, right?

Tell me more.

Yeah, having this space with boundaries because when they can be more autonomous and free to listen to, but there are also some boundaries I cannot bend around either. I do believe that when people feel more autonomy and the fact that they can also, you know, go and create something for themselves, that does lead eventually to a more productive environment because people do something because they want to and not because they have to. And of course, sometimes you have to take one up for the team. Like, that's one of these boundaries, right? Because yeah, of course, if there is a situation that a project that you might not like, but there's nothing else at that point, yeah. Do we just, Let the money go in essence, right? So there's always this type of trade-offs.

So if I understand correctly, it's, um, so there's a distinction, obviously. What comes to my mind is the saying, love, play hard, work hard. So you're fully human and business is business.

And, um, but I think in that fully humanness, you can also take the part of Like, hey, I'm also doing a job. I also have a role and I also need to make sure that, you know, I can talk to my manager, you know, and be able to tell him that I do my job well, including the—

How transparent or open are you in your communication? Because I'm wondering what I'm thinking of that some people might think, yeah, but if you're almost friends, if you're too transparent to your to your team members, then they will take advantage of you, or they will, it will be difficult to call them out if they drop performance. Um, you'll have too much empathy and then you let everything pass, or they will turn around and say, hey, but you also smoke weed, so you know that we cannot perform all the time at 100%. I'm making stuff up, but some level of transparency is also to protect them.

I think so. It's always this very contextual, like, hey, where are we now and how would I feel in that situation? But I like to look at it in a way like, you know, I'm not their mother, you know, I'm not there to nurture them. So they're also not my children in that sense. Even if parenthood and leadership are similar, they're more similar in a way like your children are not going to learn anything from you by you telling them, right? You need to embody that. So the same, I think, also in the— team dynamics, like by embodying that and being, it's also like transmission in a way, right? So that's—

What do you mean by embodying it?

So let's say by living that, right? So let's say if I, like, if I tell them, oh, you need to regulate your emotions, but I never regulate mine, nobody will know. So it's like maybe leading by example would be a better terminology in that sense. So yeah, I'm not their mother. I'm not there to nurture them, but I am there to provide an environment so that they feel they can grow and do and even surpass me in that sense. I think then it's, I've been very successful if they can surpass me. So yeah, that's how I look at it. I like to look at it because that I can. And for me, it's important, like if you know a bit more different people, maybe down the line. So if you know somebody who's really like fired up about an idea, Um, a simple support could also be like, hey, hey, you should talk to this, this, this, or you should talk like kind of thinking along with them. These are the things that I think I would consider as examples of this, providing that environment.

Would you consider, has it been easier or more difficult to then have the tough conversations with your team members since you're more transparent or open about yourself with them?

It has been, uh, more easier. I've, so it's, if you are that kind of sets the tone, right? I'm not telling like, here's all of like, I can be honest about my own experience, but I never, it's not like, hey, I'm going to give you advice because my context is different. My luggage is different. So who am I to give you advice? There's so many different factors, but I can give you my lived experience and how it turned out for me and then do with it as you will. And in that sense, I think What helps a lot is questioning, really questioning and then making them think. And that's very rewarding.

Because I'm, I'm thinking of, there's so many leaders who struggle with evaluation conversations, right? To pass on the bad news that someone hasn't performed well and who believe that having a professional distance. Helps with feeling bad about the conversation.

But you can also approach it from the perspective of, like, you can say professional distance, but it can also be more of a personal loyalty, right? And so an example, because I think it is, yeah, I think it is important to know what is happening within your team, right? And you can have these conversations, especially there's also an interest, like there's also like a bit of This balance of giving and taking of what you share. And if somebody, if you open up, you make it easier for others to follow there as well. Like, oh, okay, this is like a more normal baseline for me. But then I had also like, indeed, if you get a bit, not too firm, but like there's at some point like, hey, it's indeed not performing like it's supposed to be. I've flagged this a couple of times. Okay, we know. And then, then the conversation was for me more of like, hey, Don't let me, don't, don't let me look bad. We discussed this, you know, this, this, this, this. Why, why are you looking, you know, making me look, look bad by not doing what we've agreed upon? And, uh, I don't know if that was good or not, but that's kind of how it rolled back then. Like, come on, like, uh, it's a two-way street. It's a two-way street. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's with this particular person. But then again, you're also like, each person is different.

Yes. And what I hear, and I think that's an important point. And I think that's, uh, very often a trap for other conversations. If you don't have such close relationships is that they might hear it for the first time in the evaluation. And now I heard you mention, okay, it's an ongoing thing because if you're in conversation more often, then there's more regular feedback maybe as well.

But it was really, um, a deliberate decision I had to make in terms of Uh, taking the time for those conversations because sometimes it's, well, you don't have it. You essentially get, I think, 4 to 6 hours a week in total. And yeah, of course, if you're managing 3 people, it's easier, but if you're managing 8, it's more difficult. But luckily I'm managing, but I felt like sometimes there are weeks like, oh, things are happening with each one of them. And then you're like, full day is gone and you cannot get any. anything else done.

Yeah.

And then there's this choice, right? You make the priorities. So for me, first, of course, my own family first, and then within work, people first, my people, the people that I'm leading in that sense, right? If anything is there, I would actually put a lot of my own projects aside and manage those expectations and say, hey, something came up, and then make sure that my people are helped. Of course, depending on urgency as well. But that's for me, and that's a deliberate choice that I had to make. Like, hey, what kind of leader do I wanna be in that sense? And this has to do also with putting this human to human first, because I see a lot of my other colleagues not do that and do manage like another sales conversation or whatever, because there's some, like sitting in the discomfort of someone else's emotion, there's real time going into that.

Mm-hmm.

And that, that time that you cannot put in your billable sheet, right? Hey, I was, you know, so there's a, and that's the time that my other colleagues can maybe get something more result-oriented out of.

Yeah.

But that was, yeah, whether good or bad, that's more of a, my own internal decision that I made there. And it might be not successful for my career. It might be, I don't know, but I value the mutual trust and relationship that you built in the process. I think that's for me more important.

What I'm also curious about is how you, because you're a consultant, you're in, in tech, in AI. Yeah. So a very, I would say, male-dominated industry.

Yes, it is.

And I would be curious to hear how you bring this work philosophy Then also to your external client, because your, your team, you chose them or you, you build them. It's a culture where you have direct impact on, and then the clients are basically given to you. How do you cultivate this culture with your clients and what's your experience on that?

Yeah, I think again, here I'm more on the relationship itself and on the person because behind every other mess, there's still a person and whether Probably in that process, they are wearing their mask, but as scary as it seems, and sometimes it is really scary, I would like them to see the real me behind the mask. And it's not like to say like, hey, now I'm going to tell you all about myself. So it's not like that in practice, but usually how it plays out is when something challenging happens or something happens that is more frustrating towards the client or, ah, something is off balance or it's misalignment, miscommunication, whatever that might be, that you really make it, make the space and room for it to discuss. It doesn't have to be right away because right away you're usually very emotional and because of that, well, you're not rational. In a male-dominated environment, rational conversations help, but it doesn't mean that you don't have emotions. So what I usually do is I feel the emotion. So that's for me a signal, okay, I got to do something with that because that's kind of in my way. Then I go into finding the time and space to regulate that emotion or nervous system to kind of process that. That could be essentially any combination of sound, breath, and movement paired with silence meditation. And normally when I do the silence meditation part, I already Like after that, I can rationalize it because I moved through it physically and then I'm in the silence and then it's like, oh, okay. But I'm observing like the thing from the situation from a different perspective.

So your body, your body knows that you're safe. You shake it off. Yes.

I shake it off literally. And then in the silence meditation, it balances each other out. And then the rational parts create, like there is space for the rational part. And when that arises, Then I actually make a story out of it, which is genuine. And then I go to my clients and then that's what I share. Like, hey, here's what I observed this and this is how it made me feel. And I always say like, hey, I don't assume bad intentions. So my assumption is that it's not, you know, consciously. So it's rather, yeah. So I don't assume that people like, you know, sit there and actually like pointed at you and wanna make you feel bad or something. So that's, that's, that's rarely my assumption from the client perspective. But then I do share like, hey, this is how I experienced it as a person and what I find important in that context.

So you make it very tangible for them to realize the impact it has on you and your work.

Yeah.

And personally. Yeah.

Apparently. Yeah. But so far it's been, uh, actually a very good formula if I'm really honest. If I now reflect back on it, I'd Quite some of these conversations and usually, well, actually every time that I reflect on it now, we left the room in a better trusting relationship than what we came in before.

So then they acknowledge or they're curious and then something changes because I learned from a Forward Talk, a book by my friend Gustavo, and he says that most people would not have these conversations. Um, because they believe nothing changes afterwards anyway.

I think there's a difference there if, if it's someone really close to you or if it's someone in a professional. And that's funny, but it's at least that is for me. Uh, let me explain what I mean by that, because having that distance of professional in terms of work relationship versus really family and knows where you grew up in, there's a different level there.

Personal.

But just, okay, let me start off with the personal then, with the very people are close to you. Like, I used to wonder, like, how come when you can't, you know, when it's someone strange you don't know, it is easier for you not to lash out. And when it's your own people, you lash out like faster, right? So why? Because your own people, you kind of, you actually wanna, how do you say, like, don't wanna lash out at them, right? You love them so that you even love them more than a stranger. So why would you like allow yourself be, like that with them and not with strangers in that sense. So that's kind of how it started for me. And I noticed indeed most people may not have these conversations. Like I've seen it with my parents, like they, you know, there was no discussion about emotions and then same problems kept on repeating. And I think I first really broke that pattern with my own partner, with my husband right now. And what we realized in that process is when you can have that conversation, when there is like a baseline, okay, I trust this person has best intentions for me, right? And there is a certain level of love. And I think that's definitely a part that ayahuasca gave because before that, there could be that like this dialogue, hey, am I not giving in too much? Am I like, that might be more of a like subconscious power struggle even, I don't know. Or like, hey, you know, you know, like this type of, am I right to do so? Am I not like, am I not too soft? Am I all of that? So that goes away if you are able to experience love in that sense, in the purest form, and realize like, okay, no, I really know this person loves me. So let me be open to what he has to tell me. I think that was a big pivotal moment in our relationship, and we did it also together. So that probably helps. And when I set that openness there, then I started understanding him better, and he started understanding me better. And then that didn't mean that by me understanding him, immediately changed my pattern behavior. No, it didn't. So it also meant that he needed a lot of patience and each time saying, hey, oh, you're doing this thing again, you know, like, oh yeah, thanks. Oh shit, you know, and you notice that these intervals, they get bigger and bigger. So first maybe it happens almost every day and then it happens maybe every week and then you're like, oh wow, so much time has passed. We didn't have any, you know, so it's, it does get better over the years if you have the that continuous loop together.

Yeah. Yeah. And if you have the, yeah, trust that the other person means well and that there is, forgiveness is a big word, but patience. Yeah.

Yeah. So there's also like, there needs to be this trust that there's no manipulation of you. Yes.

Yeah.

Um, yeah. Yeah.

And then in the professional world. Did you, so you practiced that at home? Yes, I brought it to work.

I think in the professional world, I had it earlier because you have the mask. I can't show that it's frustrating to me, but then I would also not discuss it like that afterwards. Right. So the fact that you need to discuss the feeling under the surface, and that's actually like, can make it or break it. And it's so important. I think Jordan Peterson, uh, one of my, uh, inspiration, yeah, people that inspire me a lot. I think he used to say like, conflict denied is conflict multiplied. Well, I really, really, really feel that. I've really seen that close in a partner life as well. Like, yeah, if you deny, deny, then it bottles up, bottles up, bottles up, and then it comes out really ugly and you actually don't want to get there. So this is like, hey, making sure you don't get there.

Yeah.

solving it, finding a solution. And with people that you don't know that well yet in a professional setting, I believe it is a bit easier to be open because there's also this role, this mask of like, hey, you know, there can be, we should be able to give each other feedback, right? There is some evaluation or type of thing that's also like a professional mask in some sense. So there you can put on the role like, hey, Oh yeah, sure. There's something to learn from it and be more open to it. But then it's a question whether you mean it really, or whether you pretend to receive someone's feedback for real. You know what I mean?

Yeah. And I think what I heard in your example and what makes all the difference is that you explain the impact it has on you instead of The company, the process, the team, but how it made you personally feel. And somehow this seems to be very difficult for many in the professional world.

Yeah. And there can be multiple reasons for that because I know like it was also extremely difficult for me, but the reason for me was years ago, right? It had to do with the fact that just not knowing, just not knowing Emotions, not knowing how to interpret emotions, never have learned like, oh, okay, like maybe some basic emotions, but I never really got taught about emotions in that sense. So what am I feeling? What is this? Is this frustration? Oh, okay. Apparently this is frustration. You know, like all of that. You just don't. Yeah. It took me really deliberate practice to—

So basically what I'm understanding is That the potentially the biggest hindrance for effective feedback is that we are unable, or many people are unable to actually identify what behavior does to them.

Exactly.

So they're lashing out on blaming others for, for the discomfort, because I think the, the emotions we feel anyway, right? Maybe we are not able to say, oh, we are frustrated, or we are sad, or we are angry, or we are scared. And then we feel that, okay, something is not wrong. Something is not right. I feel threatened and it's your fault.

And the lashing out part is even like almost autopilot, right? It's just already happens. It's impulsive.

Yeah.

Yeah. It takes, I think, a deliberate amount of practice of being in your body and recognizing it and being able to recognize like how, how each emotion is actually embodied. Yeah.

And then what you said, the starting by self-regulation, noticing that something is activated, self-regulating, and then speaking your truth of what kind of behavior had an impact on you.

Yeah, because I don't know how many times you have that you're like angry, you're super angry, you're like, oh, I'm just so frustrated. And then you let the anger go and then you realize it's, there's sadness behind it that before you know it, you're like crying.

Yes.

Right?

Almost always. Yeah.

Yeah. Almost always, actually. Almost always for, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Anger is a, it's easy to be angry because it's, it's everyone else. So it's kind of protecting us.

Yeah. Yeah.

And there's a beauty in that's, I'm not sure whether it will, it has a professional space, but what I notice with my partner is the moment we learned to tell each other that we're annoyed with each other. That is so liberating because just by speaking it out, when I tell her I'm so annoyed by you at the moment, I realize that I'm just projecting and it's all on me and it has very little to do with her actually. But then, and her being open to, oh, tell me more. What annoys you? How does that feel? And then suddenly we can have a conversation about it instead of being passive aggressive and complaining about the socks. Yeah.

That was very relatable. And I think the essence still realizing that you need to talk about it. You don't have to do it right now. You can let the emotion settle and then rationalize it. Most probably that's the best because when you're in the heat of the emotion, you can actually end up hurting each other even more. But yeah, it's definitely needed and it actually goes for every context because if it's not done, it will, it does pile up.

Yeah. What's an unprofessional advice you would still give others?

Uh, yeah, still, I think not being afraid to show real you. Yeah. And it sounds scary, especially if you haven't accepted your shadow parts, let's call it like that. But yeah, that's, uh, you know, there's a lot of clichés about that. Uh, but I, yeah, I truly think that. Pretending eventually is not a life.

This was a conversation without the script. Now it's your turn. I'm Myriam Hadnes, and this has been Unprofessionalism.